Thanks so much for watching! We hope you enjoyed watching this video as much as we enjoyed making it. Your support is truly amazing. Check out our Throw Like a Pro Form Comparison Tool: www.rotadiscgolf.com/disc-golf-form-comparison-tool
Innova's biggest asset, which you mentioned, is being the first disc most new players throw. No one forgets their first, and they learn the intricacies of different molds via Innova's ecosystem. If and when the day comes that first disc is just as likely to be a Discraft or an MVP, that is when Innova really needs to be worried.
Mine was an Evolution Wizard that bought at the gas station by the course my buddy took me too the first time. But I'm from STL so that might be why Im an outlier there lol
It already IS just as likely. RUclips is the largest search engine behind Google and Google Image Search. Per Google, 40% of under-25ers use TikTok or Instagram for non-school searches. The stories and data are everywhere. Kids use visual search, and trust their feeds more than text. Friends introduce you to new things like disc golf. And most people are going to be sent a video to watch first (or see it in friends' feeds) before they try. What are the odds they find SUPER COOL Innova content? Next to zero. I watch oodles of disc golf content, and every other brand does it better. I think anyway... because I can't even remember seeing any Innova content. I have nothing against Innova, but Dave's gonna run that shit into the ground being a cheapass.
Innova is the measuring point for almost all discs. You always hear things like “flys like a thunderbird” or “firebird clone” aside from a few other molds from competitors you don’t hear that from any other manufacturer
@@joshcallaway3600 are you sure? Innova is still the most used brand by beginner disc golfers. The majority of beginners I’ve seen locally either start with innova or discraft.
Thing is it depends on your exposure. I got in and learned disc golf from RUclips and my friends inviting me out, with only one of them being innova loyal, and I learned a lot from dynamic discs RUclips videos. And seeing a player learn how to throw, and seeing what he was throwing a different stages got me reflecting those choices, and I compare every disks from there to trilogy disks. And this will probably be the trend moving forward. Innova isn't the dominant media feed for me, and that's probably going to be the same for others. Innova is looking like the DeWalt of disc golf - common, recognizable, and reliable on a few products, But everyone else is catching up and innovating.
For me Innova is still the best in terms of sheer choice, including light weight options. Like any business they will need to innova-ate to stay there. Nice job on the vid.
@disckyle I think if he were going to try and leave Innova he'd have done it this off season rather than signing a new 5 year extension with them and having to break a contract to leave.
honestly if I was Innova, I would spend less money on the top pros and be investing heavily in getting my discs in every elementary, middle and high school in the country as part of the PE program and I would be signing as many Jr and Am players as I could. Brand loyalty starts at the earliest age. I would also continue to push to be in every big box store out there, target, walmart, dick's, sheels...... It is a proven fact that brands you used in your youth have a huge impact on the brands you will buy in your adult life. That said it wouldn't hurt Innova to sign another big player like Gannon but they are still killing it in FPO as well with most of the top players playing for Innova.
Great point you make about starting with youth or even introducing the sport to new players. Simple personal analysis. I personally still ware Converse because they were cool when I was in Highschool in the 70s. Still play with Discraft because when someone introduced me to disc golf 12 years ago they played with Discraft and I still play with Discraft despite trying Innova for a couple of months. Great presentation with facts and figures I was not really aware of.
@@johnroberts1009 100% first hockey equipment was bauer, I almost always buy bauer stuff when looking for new gear, first discs were Innova, my bag is 85% innova. You can either reach those new people and build that brand loyalty through your athletes or you can get those kids ears before they really even watch the sport, both are effective. The difference with the Nike vs Converse and innova vs the others is that you aren't going to get just randos throwing the top pros discs because that's what's in style. You might convert some people, especially newer adult players but most people will just throw what their friends throw or what the local store sells when they get started.
I coach disc golf at a middle school. We have no budget tor equipment. DD sent us 20 discs and a practice goal and MVP sent 30 discs while Innova declined to provide us with any equipment. Instead they gave me a link to a subscription based disc golf education website. I was incredibly disappointed but I certainly promote DD and MVP.
@@gfunktuba1 definitely a disappointment but they probably get tons of those requests everyday. Glad you were able to get something from those other companies. Keep fighting the good fight!
Innova's plastic makes them the standout imo. Options paired with always being readily available. Other brands fail to check both boxes often. They will be just fine. Please stop with the clickbait titles. This never touched on any sort of "harsh truth". (Edit: I enjoyed this edit. Not trying to down you)
Innova has the best plastic,molds, and the big on discs in your favorite mold when needed. I love being able to replace lost or worn out disc’s immediately
Best plastic is highly debatable. Sure it really comes down to preference, but I think Kastaplast has some of the best feeling plastic, and far better than Innova's imo.
My bag, like many people, used to be 95% Innova, and now it's 80% MVP (love my Rat still, Buzzz variants, and P1X putters). I'm 39, been playing for over 20 years. There is no shortage of quality, engaging content and personalities pushing other brands, their technology, their relationships w players, and their content ecosystems. Except for Innova. The Lat 64 personalities, content, and tutorials are brilliant. They have a sick video game ffs... THE disc golf game. MVP has great artists, a science theme to their lines that a nerd like me loves, technology that allows them to make flatter discs while maintaining glide, great plastic, and the most beloved content creator in disc golf. Kastaplast, while a weird throw for me, has absolutely the most beautiful polishing process. Loft has content that made me curious enough to buy some discs of theirs the other day, and hands down the best dye artist collaborator. Discmania puts out probably the coolest signature stuff around, and is well known for being tight with their players. Innova doesn't show up *anywhere* in my life. It's just the shit I've been throwing forever. Even after 20 years, all their lines and variations confuse the hell out of me. As do which runs are the best. If I can throw a stupid looking, translucent, easy-to-lose-but-good-plastic disc as well as i can throw another manufacturer's awesome looking disc with good plastic that supports an athlete I give two shits about, it's a no-brainer. And Calvin is sick. And f*cking hilarious. But he is so damn dry, he's just not a good salesman. And Dave, while I do truly appreciate the simplicity of his "this is who should throw this and why" ads... he's an old dude the next generation doesn't care about. And the cheapness really rubs me the wrong way. Doubly so as a business owner. "Oh, they'll always (insert something that won't be true in five years here)" ...says the fans of every business that ever crumbled while resting on their laurels
Are we really going to ignore FPO this hard? Half of my Tour Series discs are from FPO players and I'd say Innova and their players are competing well there.
Professional disc golf is a niche of a niche. The vast majority of disc golfers don't know or care about the pros or what they throw. Investing heavily in high level pros is good business for a growing brand, but not a great use of money for the #1 brand. Innova's strategy is to play the field, and it works.
In other markets, the #1 always spends money to ensure they stay there. But you may be right in that many disc golfers don't pay attention to professionals. As the sport grows though, I think we see a trend towards the DGPT having a greater influence on the market.
First off great video. 2nd Innova isn’t going anywhere. As long as they maintain a healthy supply of current touring pros and do not quit investing in rnd and their supply chain, they will not become converse (Proof of continued investment can be seen in the birth of halo plastic, toro, and jay). Innova is fairly risk averse and it makes a lot of sense. It’s a comparably small legacy sports brand out of California that doesn’t need to grow to keep its private owners, employees, and customers satisfied. In fact in my opinion the pressure will be on these brands that have invested a ton of money recently (DD, Lone star) to generate LT returns lest they fail to meet current debt obligations and go belly up. I agree that other companies have more aggressively campaigned for growth, reducing market share, but in the monopolistic environment that disc golf is currently in (not monopoly, monopolistic look up the difference). Innova will continue a healthy long term growth (they own the patent to the destroyer… gg).
I honestly see Latitude 64 Buying up the company Dymamic Discs should the disc company go under since Latitude 64 owns the molds. Kind of in the same way that Westside discs was sold in mid 2010's to Latitude 64 after making the first million discs.
The biggest trend I have noticed is that while Innova may be the first beginner set most players start with, once they touch any other major brands plastic, Innova quickly gets booted out of the bag. I know a lot of disc golfers use Innova molds as measuring sticks to compare other discs, but Innova’s plastic leaves a lot to be desired when you feel the high quality plastic of many of the other big brands… I wouldn’t even put Innova in the top 5 when it comes to their plastics and having nice high quality plastic tends to be many players top priority when trying new discs…
Recently I've been straying away from Innova, and bagging Trilogy, Lone Star and Discraft..... Having said that, nothing in my bag right now gives me the confidence that a bag full of TeeBirds, Wraiths and Aviars used to.... And as such I'm about to go back to what i know works for me..... The Escape is similar to the TeeBird for me, but the finish isnt quite what id like, Muskets are nice too, but still not what I'm looking for.... I do really like the E Mac Judge for putting, so I may keep bagging it, but yeah, I need TeeBirds, Rocs, Sidewinders and Wraiths to feel the most confident in my game
Innova has the best player in the world right now on their team, in spite of that fact Innova needs NOBODY to sell their discs. Innova completely corners the market on beginners and casuals. Innova discs can be found at Wal-Mart, Meijer, Dick's Sporting Goods, that's so significant.
You are absolutely right that their distribution is a huge part of their success. But do you think that others can't eventually get into those same big box retailers? What happens when that part of the market isn't cornered.
First off, thank you for reaching out. A point that was not discussed in this video is perception of quality. I have witnessed a lot of chatter online regarding Innova's perceived lack of quality control. Personally, I have not encountered any issues. But, word of mouth is a powerful marketing tool and once a theme gets going it's hard to stop. Then there's the newbies arriving on the scene with lots of money and large marketing departments that play on that sentiment. One that stands out to me is LSD which was a million dollar plastics company that turned their craft to golf discs. They just copied the engineering and promote their products as being superior in quality. So that's one area Innova could work on. Their perceived quality. What I would like to see is a disc golf manufacturer that publishes velocity and flight affecting environmental data (like elevation) present when determining flight numbers. So I would know how fast I have to throw a disc in order to achieve the published flight characteristics. I swear that whom ever is determining flight numbers at Discraft is throwing them at about 80mph cause every disc I have from them is much more OS than the numbers would suggest. I envision being able to walk in to a disc golf shop, having my form and release velocity checked, and then having a set of discs selected for me based on my performance. Much like what happens in a ball golf shop when selecting clubs. Wow! what a service. So, be the visionaries that you once were. Make it less confusing for people to select discs. BTW, I couldn't care less which players are playing for which company. That doesn't affect how discs fly for me. At all.
Great vid. Definitely A lot of history for Innova which I think will help them secure some of those top players they need to push plastic. But I am curious to see how all of the newer companies continue to stack up and get their share of top players as well.
Innova is still putting out new molds, has enough upper level players and has distribution. If they stop having a mold for every shot and arm speed or they completely lose out on all top players then THAT is when they might be in trouble. Their share will continue to decrease, but total volume should stay high enough to maintain for the foreseeable future. Discraft and MVP are definitely doing good work in making discs and having talented pro players.
My very first discs were from a Franklin starter set😢. Shortly thereafter, some Good Samaritans on the course sent me to our local pro shop to get a used starter set. All of those disc’s except two were Innova. Valkyrie has been in my bag since then. Valkyrie Clutch Mako Sinus Leopard
Agreed, if they don't do something fast, then they're get taken over. Discraft is already on a charge. The Gannon Burr move would be very smart. If they could poach other young guys like Antilla, Ellis, Gossage etc. Players that are on the rise, then they'd get more market share back. I think that the apparel space is grossly underserved in Disc Golf. I know lots of people that would spend quite a lot on cool apparel but the selection out there is either limited or pretty crappy. I think that's a missed opportunity for brands.
Agreed on the apparel game, its mostly junk with maybe a couple exceptions. Most disc golfers are also poor though, most players you see out there in higher end brands like Nike are only wearing it because they went to Ross or an outlet shop. Not sure premium apparel would thrive in the sport quite yet.
We all do well when we all do well! I believe Innova wants to participate, not dominate. They paved the path and now more companies get to have a diagram of running a disc company. I throw mostly Mint but always have an Innova/DM mold to fall back on if needed. Great video as usual 👍🏼🤘🏼🙏
So crazy that less than 5 years ago Innova was the juggernaut. Then players started leaving and Innova didn't seem to care enough to try to hold onto them. Now it seems like the few top players left at Innova are staying out of the goodness of their hearts.
Innova is still the juggernaut, youre just more knowledgeable about disc golf so you know about niche brands. Innova and dynamic is all thats in walmart and dicks sporting goods.
I think in this case it's just other companies stepping up in the market, offering more competition. I don't see Innova trying to buy out a ton of players, but I do think they'll get a few free agents and be content to compete, instead of dominate.
As the name Innova suggests, its core competitive advantage was to innovate. It has created more lines than anyone, constantly trying out now molds, plastics, etc. After decades of innovating when the sport was new, now all these products are confusing, and the need for reliability of production is becoming a powerful competitive advantage appreciated by serious players, a larger segment of the market. Also true, Innova owns the low end retail market. Those distribution channels are strong revenue streams, where cheap price is more important than quality product. The disc manufacturing market is maturing, the markets are sementing. One company can no longer be at the top of everything. It is imposible to out-innovate, out-quaility and out-cheap the competion at the same time. Success often plants the seeds of its own demise. You are correct. Innova is at a strategic crossroad. It isnt as simplistic as sponsorship, although very important. Innova has options, and all choices will cause it some pain. My advice for Innova is 1. Retire many of their lines, molds and plastics, so they can focus on improving the manufacturing quality control to match competitors. 2. Ninety plus percent of disc golfers can't throw faster than 45mph. Since Innova owns retail chains, they can create a brand targeting these players on discs that boost performance of slower arm players. 3. Create a serious pro brand, premium prices. Quality plastic, great grip, higher speed discs that increase performance of the best players in the world. Make their discs desired by the best because they are the best. Sponsor those that love their discs. 4. Continue to innovate, but keep it focused on the above. Easy? Absolutely not. And what is also true, they can't keep doing the status quo.
They're not worried about maintaining the 'status quo', whatever that means. They're emphasis, correctly so, is on the grass roots of the sport. As the professional level matures and contracts begin to reflect the actual payouts, Innova will adjust. How does a $7000 1st place prize justify millions in contracts? Every company is being blinded by dollar signs right now (e.g. Lone Star). Dunipace is sitting back watching everything shake out, just being a careful observer. Heimburg seems likely to become the next cult hero. Hail Vinnie. Will he become Innova's first million dollar man? Maybe.
I still think innova has the best discs ever made, however they have not done well with players. I remember will schusterick had an issue on the road years ago & said innova was not willing to even help him to get to the next big tournament. This was After winnning usdgc and being a top tier player. They have to step up with the sponsorship deals and start securing more top players. They have the money so it only makes sense for the brand. Dave dunipace has pretty strong opinions and honestly until the regime changes I don't see it getting better for Innova.
I throw whatever disc works for me in certain situations. That's why my bag is mixed. I've been throwing an Innova Wraith in Champion plastic for years now. But I also throw discs by Dynamic, Lat 64, Westside and Streamline (MVP). Innova is how I entered the sport.
Drew Gibson still thorws their molds...Its not about the discs or the company other than Innova's unwillingness to pay Pro players more. Thats it. It just comes down to money. No more no less. Had Innova offered Paul $11 million he'd be pimping Destoyers and McPro Roc3's.
My theory why these big name players leave Innova, is they just get better offers for signing with their new company. They could be leaving for a multitude of reasons, but I doubt it is cause they don't like the plastic/molds or lack tour series discs. The next generation of disc golfers could bring more "hype" back to Innova. And when Calvin H. wins worlds this year the sales will sky rocket. When I go to my local disc golf shop. Innova always has the most discs and maybe always the cheapest. I threw discraft for my first disc over 12 years ago, found this neon Nuke OS, simply bought it cause my teenage years I played a lot Call of duty and loved getting nukes haha
You touched on all these players leaving Innova, but you really didn’t talk about why. There have been countless stories over the past years about the way they treat their talent, to showing that they are slow to adapting with the times as far social media goes. Patent Pending did a great interview with Val Jenkins that touches on A LOT of why I feel Innova is struggling.
My first discs were a valkyrie, leopard3, and aviar. All of which i've given to friends to get them into the game. I have nothing against innova but personally i just enjoy buying and trying other brands. Currently liking dynamic and mvp (mostly due to simon signing with them)
#TheSimonEffect - Aka #TheMcBethEffect. Discraft was absolute crap before McBeast came over and they got to celebrate all the world titles he had won (all with Innova at the time! 😂) I now own and throw several Discraft molds, but I think MVP has the best plastic in the business. That being said, >80% of my bag is Innova - mostly because I’ve been throwing them for about 20 years (since my youth pastor put an Aviar in my hand in 2003. 🤷♂️
I have used Innova discs since I first started playing in 1987. The only non-Innova disc I throw is a Buzzz. I doubt that I will ever change brands unless a company develops a plastic that feels like DX & wears like Champion.
well made video! I expect that if they do not keep investing in pros to show their molds, other companies (discraft, mvp, trilogy, lone star) will feasibly take them and use sponsored players to grow their sales numbers immensely
Important to note that the market has changed by a lot. The competition is a lot tougher. The cost to support a pro has gone way up as well. All I know is that Innova better keep Calvin VERY close. They better ink that man a serious contract to the likes of Ricky and Paul. It's rare that a company has a top 5 player and future champion on their team since the begining. I go with Calvin. My favorite player out there on all levels.
2 things: 1.) To be fair, Infinite gives sales data from their website disc sales. It might reflect an accurate depiction, but it might not. They have also been relentlessly promoting their own disc line because they have the ability to push their own line of discs much more easily, which increases recognition and sales for them. Therefore, some of these sales charts might be a little skewed. 2.) Innova is by far the largest manufacturer and also makes discs for other brands/companies, ie Infinite Discs. It actually helps them when the competitors discs sell well when they have a hand in manufacturing those discs. So my thought is that yes, competition is increasing, but as the largest manufacturer, they're benefiting from that as well.
See i cant see the fall of innova with how popular the Destroyer is as the #1 distance driver along side the zeus, the firebird, especially the sexton firebird, and even the aviar and so on. I think that they will always be a reliable backbone to the sport. Now days, people will try and new disc and usually compare it to innova or discraft. Oh, this overstable disc is similar to the firebird. I mean even the raptor is compared to the firebird. Innova will always have the staple molds imo, and really unique ones like the rocs which rarely any other conapanies have discs like.
And even then, this is how my brain works and I assume a lot if other people think the same way. I love trying new brands, and if the new disc I'm trying or bagging directly translates from an innova disc, then I will bag one of each. The "OG" and then the New one. Like for example, I bag a firebird and a Draco. The OG and the newer one. Obviously it's the same mold but different company. Same with the Destroyer and the Zeus, and with the lion and a Wasp which I no longer bag because I found more reliability in the lion.
considering the strength of the field now compared to even as little as five years ago, no single company is gonna hold a player base that dominates the field. so yes, innova will no longer dominate the field, but no one company is going to take that spot.
The argument made was not very compelling because Innova does give players their own unique discs - tour series and signature series - whereas converse did not specialize shoes at all - according to the video. The video also did not mention how many great fpo players Innova has now as well. The arguments made in the video did not feel fleshed-out to me.
Go into any Innova Pro's bag or stash and you will find that the best disc was made between 1999 and 2004. It should say CE or 11x on it. The discs back then had style.
Innova is going to be just fine. Aside from the Swedish-made brands, I don’t see another manufacturer that is on this scale. Even the “inconsistency” of innova molds, I think, mostly has to do with the sheer quantities produced (plastic batches change, molds wear, seasonal changes in temp/humidity in the factories, etc.) Aside from that, they truly have been on the forefront of “innovation” in the game. I don’t throw much innova up to mids but for fairways and up I don’t see a better choice. If you lose one, you can replace it. Good F2 selection. Full lineup for any arm, etc. No issue with the other brands at all, the more the merrier, but Innova’s demise is being greatly exaggerated.
I love Innova. I only really through innovva . The star wraith is my go to driver and I love the kc Aviar. I will keep with Innova for as long as I play. It was my starting company. ❤
I think with time, Innova is going to slide away. In my opinion, there’s several other companies the make much better discs, especially MVP and Lat64/DD. Innova is only popular because most sports stores don’t carry other brands yet so they have a monopoly on beginners and casuals. In my experience teaching new players, the moment you give them something that isn’t Innova they almost always move on to the other brand. I think the moment we start seeing other brands in Walmart and Dick’s is the moment that Innova loses the casual niche…unless they start improving the quality of their products
The secret in any business is to join the flow of the niche & not go against the grain to compete. Don't be just one Brand become multiple Brands become the ultimate Manufacturer for Higher Quality products for All different companies. That's how you become Dominant & #1.
I simply cannot take this video seriously when Calvin Heimburg is playing the way that he is. Right now, Calvin is the best disc golfer in the world and it does not look like he is slowing down.
Innova will sponsor the Japan open in a couple of weeks... it will not be PDGA sanctioned and they will finally get to throw max weight plastic.... 30 years after Japan and Innova joined together to corner the disc market in Japan.
I think this is a very interesting premise and eventually overtime you may be right. However I do think right now Disc golf companies are overpaying on these top sponsorships and could be bankrupting themselves in the long run. You have to sell a lot of discs to recoup a $1 million a year contract. I think I’m the long run innova may prove to be the Patriots, who long term dominance was largely due to refusing to overpay star players for the overall benefit of the organization.
As someone who throws a bunch of brands, I can honestly say you can tell when you’re holding a discraft disc how quality they are. I grew up in my disc golf life on innova and love certain discs of theirs but discraft is just a better product.
FPO is an increasingly important aspect of the game for fans of both genders, IMO. For one thing, I can't throw 600', so the MPO tour series discs are useless to me. But I can throw what a lot of the FPO players throw and get a full flight. Some of the stats were likely a bit skewed to make the argument, too. For example, a drop-off in Innova sales is mentioned, but I suspect that the other big brands also saw a dropoff due to the end of Covid, inflation, and increasing competition from numerous other smaller brands. What all the big companies really need to worry about is a competitor coming along and selling discs that are absolutely just as good, and are more consistent from run to run, for half the price.
The sale of most discs is based on hype. Everyone is always looking for the next silver bullet. New companies are always trying different things as it is the only way to distinguish themselves. What I have noticed most is that Innova has many discs that have the same name, stats and often artwork for a decade. Other companies bring molds in and out of circulation. Discmania hauling out the CD2 and renaming it the CD1 with a buttload of marketing and special editions and different plastics dont necessarily make for a better disc, but new people entering the sport dont know that the CD2 was retired for a reason. Its true fans play a part. Thats why the trend now is to sell the crap out of commemorative discs of someone winning tournament XXX or YYY. They even tell you that the proceeds will go towards "supporting" that particular player on tour, which depending on how the contracts are written allows fans to subsidize the companies salary to a pro. Selling the same old discs with claw marks through the branding is another obvious marketing hype. Those discs dont fly any better than ones without the claw. So the question really is who are you selling the discs to? The video seems to suggest that they only sell to fans. People who pay insane amounts for collector item basketball shoes. And that that money should go to sponsoring pros. Well be careful what you wish for Paul. You could end up doing it like Golf does. It used to be the Pro got paid what he deserved through big tournament winnings. He could also pick up some work selling orange juice or Avis rent a cars. The amount they got from golf club mfg's was a tiny part of the pros income. You can see it now. The money isnt even in the clubs or the players its in the TV rights. The tours controlled that and the new tour they have to account for that is disrupting the golf world big time. In the end the biggest element of a disc manufacturer is to make the best discs. If you plan to sell average discs through Pro hype it will eventually come to an end. The dynamic of the majority of pros winning with Innova used to be based on discs and the fact that they were good discs and the biggest company that could afford to sponsor that many Pros. The other mfg's knew that and paid outrageous sums to get a pro away from them. As their products were a tiny fraction of sales or wins compared to Innova, there was really no where to go but up. How is that rocket science? When every company does that the pros will thin out per mfg because mfg's can only afford to pay those insane fees to a few select people. Those people will continue to win the same amount relative to the field they play against because in the end the difference is the talent and not the disc.
Ive thrown a lot of discs and like them ok, but Destroyers, Wraiths, Valks, Boss, and their various fairway drivers, all up there in my favorites. And as my arm speed has decreased with age, Daedalus has allowed me to maintain some of my distance glory.
Innova is a titan in disc golf and its not going to change. I am sure there's a cost-benefit analysis to paying pros a certain amount and how much that leads to disc sales. I think they know the data better than anyone else.
Innova reinvested in its own disc line up hence the new halo runs on all molds. If a company can make money on its own not relying on marketing I can see why they don’t need professional throwers anymore social media makes those sales and can be in every hand held device in the world. No need to pay if you don’t have to the dollars will pour in regardless
Seems a bit flawed to lean so heavily on Infinite discs disc sales stats when so many discs are sold direct to consumer and through countless other retailers. I’m not say those Infinite stats aren’t relevant I’m simply unsure they represent the entire market.
We hear you, and realize it may not be indicative of the entire market, but it does provide a signal of what is happening within segments of the market and does impact their overall standing.
I know Matt Orum and he has complained alot about the lack of pay Innova offers compared to others. The terms of the contracts are geared toward touring pros and not everyone can flip their own bill and wait for reimbursement.
Innova is fine as a basic brand. They simply don't bring everything the market is capable of, so obviously there will be other brands, but I don't think Innova is going anywhere. Anecdotally, at least 70% of casual disc golfers rely on at least one Innova mold, and at least 50% have two or more. In my opinion, this is not only because Innova molds are common, but also because they're familiar to almost every disc golfer. Like you said, pretty much everyone starts with an Innova disc, and since they produce more starter discs than any other brand, they are able to get into Wal-marts and REIs where no other brand has. To be honest, I think many disc golf brands are okay with a more niche market for now, because they can sell higher quality discs for higher prices to consistently returning customers.
I think that DGA, Innova, and Discraft pioneered the sport/industry of disc golf through hard work, innovation, and perseverance. Regardless of who plays for them, they have been manufacturing discs for consumers for a very long time. And, it's the consumers that drive the market. Not the players. Sure, the players provide the attraction but it's consumers that provide the money. As a consumer, I don't foresee myself changing brands any time soon regardless of how good the marketing is from other companies. Up until the covid pandemic, disc golf was struggling. Now that things are booming, there seems to be a lot of companies taking advantage of the financial gains that can be had. Very few of those companies are showing any kind of innovation or ingenuity. There does seem to be heavy investments in aesthetics and neat looking stamps and logos but not a lot of innovation in regards to basic disc design.
It’s not quite actuate to say innova sales went down 5.6% after Paul left. The sales for the entire industry have exploded. What dropped is there market share. Which could in part be because of pro players leaving as you suggest but is also due to an influx of new companies in the market. Innova May have a slightly smaller piece of the Disc golf pie but it’s a much bigger pie than it used to be so it’s definitely not like they are struggling financially.
I can totally see this kind of trend happening, as it is already, but look at the players who left Innova and requested that their new company develop Innova type discs(DD3, Zeus, etc). Innova will always be the company to measure a new standard against, and as more and more people continue to play, and discs get beat in, they may find themselves reaching for a Destroyer instead of a Zeus or Cloudbreaker.
My 1st disc set was not Innova. I purchased a set from Dynamic Disc. I have 2 Innova discs no and they never leave the bag. Now I have Latitude 64 in my bag thanks to Kristin. I have always felt Innova was a 2 rate company. Their discs feel cheap an flimsy. For me it's all about the feel of the discs. Dynamic and Latitude64 nails that for me.
I still throw mostly Innova but have a good mixed bag. They need some pros, at this point they need to keep Calvin whatever it takes. Beyond that, I believe good ole product improvement would pay. For example, how about adjusting flight numbers for different plastics instead of pretending they translate? Or controlling the setting process for more consistency? More halo options. Gotta retain destroyer dominance, I love them, and would probably own more if I could trust the runs disc to disc. Specifically, I recently lost a g star. If I felt it was replaceable, I'd have ordered another one that day
My issue with Innova is hearing players talk about "Runs of X discs". I don't want to shift through a dozen destoryers to find one that flies like it should. Same gripe about discraft (nukes).
Legacy discs are my jam. The line up made by the player for the player. So there isn't 5 thousand varieties you need to try to find what works. After all consistent pellets and conditions make for consistent discs.
Innova will never become converse... they sell most types of disc and plastics and cages by far the any other company! Most up and Comers get sponsored by them and get their own mold. That's what makes them a staple in disc golf and will be this way for many years to come.
The connection to the NBA and their shoe deals is a laughably poor stretch. NBA players are on contracts with actual teams- owned by actual billionaires. Disc golfers are on contracts with just manufacturers. When an NBA team wins a championship, fans aren’t cheering for Nike, they’re cheering for the player/team. Disc golf companies aren’t “teams.” They’re entities that sponsor players- and since they are the main source of income for the players, it’s just about money. Every company makes the same discs anyways. Just look at the PDGA approved discs specifications. So to the players, it’s not the company- it’s, which company will pay me more.
Yeahhhh... @Jervis Her I think you are missing the point. @Rota Disc Golf is not talking about the players per say... Rather the inevitable rise or demise of the brand. The correlation to the NBA shoe deals is perfect as he literally explained in the video above that When the player chooses to go to where there is more money offered and more done for the player... Then another company loses. Ironically your last sentence kind of agrees with the entire premise of this video.. Use literally any example you want. It doesn't have to be the NBA... But the point is if a manufacturer IS NOT sponsoring top players... then they in turn will likely not have great sales. I.E. The Nike - Converse example.
@Seth Ray Innova currently has the number 1 player in the world. If anything Innova just signed the Jordan of disc golf to a long term contract and yet we are wondering if they made the right move.
@@tomatojuice984 No denying this. But the question was... Was this move 1 for 1. Was losing multiple top pros over the last few years equivalent to signing only 1? Especially when it comes to signature discs... I'd say no. But its your opinion and you are entitled to it! Again I don't disagree, it was a good signing for Calvin and Innova, but will it hold up to be enough?
jeez, what a lot of people consider the best discs seem to come from innova, but I definitely am influenced by the players who are sponsored by the brand. I was throwing all discmania until Simon left but now I've bought a few discraft, innova and MVP discs. I wonder if they'll make the right move or not.
Love the game, love the Doc, Love Innova but Love some of the others as well. Let's hope the game goes more mainstream. More money = more love for our favorite players.
I don’t really think you can compare discs company to company everything is different and based on preference, nowadays players are switching due to contracts and money which they cannot pass up. You see Simon leaving for mvp because he couldn’t pass up that offer and Anthony Barela even said it hurt him to leave innova. Money changes everything
![WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THIS? | [Clash Discs Tone Review]](/img/1.gif)
Thanks so much for watching! We hope you enjoyed watching this video as much as we enjoyed making it. Your support is truly amazing.
Check out our Throw Like a Pro Form Comparison Tool: www.rotadiscgolf.com/disc-golf-form-comparison-tool
I love how Paul McBeth, pretending that he's *_not_* Paul McBeth, talks about Paul McBeth. We all know that's you Paul McBeth.
Thank you, its 100% Paul Mcbeth
I mean… it sounds a lot like him
not paul mcbeth not at all
@@mikesurvant6730 Thanks Mike. I was worried some people might think I was being sarcastic 👍
100% agree!!
Innova's biggest asset, which you mentioned, is being the first disc most new players throw. No one forgets their first, and they learn the intricacies of different molds via Innova's ecosystem. If and when the day comes that first disc is just as likely to be a Discraft or an MVP, that is when Innova really needs to be worried.
Mine was an Evolution Wizard that bought at the gas station by the course my buddy took me too the first time. But I'm from STL so that might be why Im an outlier there lol
@@dr.ew88 i think putters are different lots of ppl start off with diff putters myself included
well said
It already IS just as likely. RUclips is the largest search engine behind Google and Google Image Search. Per Google, 40% of under-25ers use TikTok or Instagram for non-school searches. The stories and data are everywhere. Kids use visual search, and trust their feeds more than text.
Friends introduce you to new things like disc golf. And most people are going to be sent a video to watch first (or see it in friends' feeds) before they try. What are the odds they find SUPER COOL Innova content? Next to zero. I watch oodles of disc golf content, and every other brand does it better. I think anyway... because I can't even remember seeing any Innova content.
I have nothing against Innova, but Dave's gonna run that shit into the ground being a cheapass.
@@dr.ew88 If might not have be an Innova, but you certainly haven't forgotten about her.
Innova is the measuring point for almost all discs. You always hear things like “flys like a thunderbird” or “firebird clone” aside from a few other molds from competitors you don’t hear that from any other manufacturer
duh, because they were first.
that was true for past generations and maybe for those players who grow up near Innova but def not for the newer player.
@@joshcallaway3600exactly what I was thinking.
@@joshcallaway3600 are you sure? Innova is still the most used brand by beginner disc golfers. The majority of beginners I’ve seen locally either start with innova or discraft.
Thing is it depends on your exposure. I got in and learned disc golf from RUclips and my friends inviting me out, with only one of them being innova loyal, and I learned a lot from dynamic discs RUclips videos. And seeing a player learn how to throw, and seeing what he was throwing a different stages got me reflecting those choices, and I compare every disks from there to trilogy disks. And this will probably be the trend moving forward. Innova isn't the dominant media feed for me, and that's probably going to be the same for others.
Innova is looking like the DeWalt of disc golf - common, recognizable, and reliable on a few products, But everyone else is catching up and innovating.
For me Innova is still the best in terms of sheer choice, including light weight options. Like any business they will need to innova-ate to stay there. Nice job on the vid.
The best player in the world throws innova.
@disckyle Because he just signed a 5 year deal with Innova and his contract isn't up until 2027.
@disckyle I think if he were going to try and leave Innova he'd have done it this off season rather than signing a new 5 year extension with them and having to break a contract to leave.
honestly if I was Innova, I would spend less money on the top pros and be investing heavily in getting my discs in every elementary, middle and high school in the country as part of the PE program and I would be signing as many Jr and Am players as I could. Brand loyalty starts at the earliest age. I would also continue to push to be in every big box store out there, target, walmart, dick's, sheels...... It is a proven fact that brands you used in your youth have a huge impact on the brands you will buy in your adult life. That said it wouldn't hurt Innova to sign another big player like Gannon but they are still killing it in FPO as well with most of the top players playing for Innova.
Great point, also expanding into Europe and asia.
Great point you make about starting with youth or even introducing the sport to new players.
Simple personal analysis. I personally still ware Converse because they were cool when I was in Highschool in the 70s. Still play with Discraft because when someone introduced me to disc golf 12 years ago they played with Discraft and I still play with Discraft despite trying Innova for a couple of months.
Great presentation with facts and figures I was not really aware of.
@@johnroberts1009 100% first hockey equipment was bauer, I almost always buy bauer stuff when looking for new gear, first discs were Innova, my bag is 85% innova. You can either reach those new people and build that brand loyalty through your athletes or you can get those kids ears before they really even watch the sport, both are effective. The difference with the Nike vs Converse and innova vs the others is that you aren't going to get just randos throwing the top pros discs because that's what's in style. You might convert some people, especially newer adult players but most people will just throw what their friends throw or what the local store sells when they get started.
I coach disc golf at a middle school. We have no budget tor equipment. DD sent us 20 discs and a practice goal and MVP sent 30 discs while Innova declined to provide us with any equipment. Instead they gave me a link to a subscription based disc golf education website. I was incredibly disappointed but I certainly promote DD and MVP.
@@gfunktuba1 definitely a disappointment but they probably get tons of those requests everyday. Glad you were able to get something from those other companies. Keep fighting the good fight!
Innova's plastic makes them the standout imo. Options paired with always being readily available. Other brands fail to check both boxes often. They will be just fine. Please stop with the clickbait titles. This never touched on any sort of "harsh truth". (Edit: I enjoyed this edit. Not trying to down you)
‘Price, value, selection. Nobody even comes close.’ - Men’s Fashion Depot
Innova has the best plastic,molds, and the big on discs in your favorite mold when needed. I love being able to replace lost or worn out disc’s immediately
Best plastic is highly debatable. Sure it really comes down to preference, but I think Kastaplast has some of the best feeling plastic, and far better than Innova's imo.
[Laughs in Eclipse 2.0 plastic]
Honestly wouldn’t even put Innova in the top 5 when it comes to plastic…
This post really confirms effectiveness of Innovas distribution and marketing.
Champion plastic is my favorite, but I have a strong grip from guitar, so maybe it's too slick for wimpy gimpies
Unless you are a pro, you throw a mixed bag. There are a lot of great discs from different companies. Innova will always be a top brand
My bag, like many people, used to be 95% Innova, and now it's 80% MVP (love my Rat still, Buzzz variants, and P1X putters). I'm 39, been playing for over 20 years.
There is no shortage of quality, engaging content and personalities pushing other brands, their technology, their relationships w players, and their content ecosystems. Except for Innova. The Lat 64 personalities, content, and tutorials are brilliant. They have a sick video game ffs... THE disc golf game. MVP has great artists, a science theme to their lines that a nerd like me loves, technology that allows them to make flatter discs while maintaining glide, great plastic, and the most beloved content creator in disc golf. Kastaplast, while a weird throw for me, has absolutely the most beautiful polishing process. Loft has content that made me curious enough to buy some discs of theirs the other day, and hands down the best dye artist collaborator. Discmania puts out probably the coolest signature stuff around, and is well known for being tight with their players.
Innova doesn't show up *anywhere* in my life. It's just the shit I've been throwing forever. Even after 20 years, all their lines and variations confuse the hell out of me. As do which runs are the best. If I can throw a stupid looking, translucent, easy-to-lose-but-good-plastic disc as well as i can throw another manufacturer's awesome looking disc with good plastic that supports an athlete I give two shits about, it's a no-brainer.
And Calvin is sick. And f*cking hilarious. But he is so damn dry, he's just not a good salesman. And Dave, while I do truly appreciate the simplicity of his "this is who should throw this and why" ads... he's an old dude the next generation doesn't care about. And the cheapness really rubs me the wrong way. Doubly so as a business owner.
"Oh, they'll always (insert something that won't be true in five years here)" ...says the fans of every business that ever crumbled while resting on their laurels
Similar with me. Switch from Innova to Dismania + some Latitude, RPM and two rest discs from Innova
Are we really going to ignore FPO this hard? Half of my Tour Series discs are from FPO players and I'd say Innova and their players are competing well there.
.........is Paul narrating this? 🤔
Professional disc golf is a niche of a niche. The vast majority of disc golfers don't know or care about the pros or what they throw. Investing heavily in high level pros is good business for a growing brand, but not a great use of money for the #1 brand. Innova's strategy is to play the field, and it works.
In other markets, the #1 always spends money to ensure they stay there. But you may be right in that many disc golfers don't pay attention to professionals. As the sport grows though, I think we see a trend towards the DGPT having a greater influence on the market.
First off great video. 2nd Innova isn’t going anywhere. As long as they maintain a healthy supply of current touring pros and do not quit investing in rnd and their supply chain, they will not become converse (Proof of continued investment can be seen in the birth of halo plastic, toro, and jay). Innova is fairly risk averse and it makes a lot of sense. It’s a comparably small legacy sports brand out of California that doesn’t need to grow to keep its private owners, employees, and customers satisfied. In fact in my opinion the pressure will be on these brands that have invested a ton of money recently (DD, Lone star) to generate LT returns lest they fail to meet current debt obligations and go belly up. I agree that other companies have more aggressively campaigned for growth, reducing market share, but in the monopolistic environment that disc golf is currently in (not monopoly, monopolistic look up the difference). Innova will continue a healthy long term growth (they own the patent to the destroyer… gg).
I honestly see Latitude 64 Buying up the company Dymamic Discs should the disc company go under since Latitude 64 owns the molds. Kind of in the same way that Westside discs was sold in mid 2010's to Latitude 64 after making the first million discs.
The biggest trend I have noticed is that while Innova may be the first beginner set most players start with, once they touch any other major brands plastic, Innova quickly gets booted out of the bag. I know a lot of disc golfers use Innova molds as measuring sticks to compare other discs, but Innova’s plastic leaves a lot to be desired when you feel the high quality plastic of many of the other big brands… I wouldn’t even put Innova in the top 5 when it comes to their plastics and having nice high quality plastic tends to be many players top priority when trying new discs…
Nonsense
True, but just as many people come back to Innova later on.
Recently I've been straying away from Innova, and bagging Trilogy, Lone Star and Discraft..... Having said that, nothing in my bag right now gives me the confidence that a bag full of TeeBirds, Wraiths and Aviars used to.... And as such I'm about to go back to what i know works for me..... The Escape is similar to the TeeBird for me, but the finish isnt quite what id like, Muskets are nice too, but still not what I'm looking for.... I do really like the E Mac Judge for putting, so I may keep bagging it, but yeah, I need TeeBirds, Rocs, Sidewinders and Wraiths to feel the most confident in my game
Really, really well-done video, man. Nice work!
You can watch MPO to see what's possible, but for almost all of us, FPO coverage is best for learning disc selection and flight characteristics.
Innova has the best player in the world right now on their team, in spite of that fact Innova needs NOBODY to sell their discs. Innova completely corners the market on beginners and casuals. Innova discs can be found at Wal-Mart, Meijer, Dick's Sporting Goods, that's so significant.
You are absolutely right that their distribution is a huge part of their success. But do you think that others can't eventually get into those same big box retailers? What happens when that part of the market isn't cornered.
This is a pretty strong argument they're going to end up Converse imo. Good vid.
First off, thank you for reaching out.
A point that was not discussed in this video is perception of quality. I have witnessed a lot of chatter online regarding Innova's perceived lack of quality control. Personally, I have not encountered any issues. But, word of mouth is a powerful marketing tool and once a theme gets going it's hard to stop.
Then there's the newbies arriving on the scene with lots of money and large marketing departments that play on that sentiment.
One that stands out to me is LSD which was a million dollar plastics company that turned their craft to golf discs. They just copied the engineering and promote their products as being superior in quality.
So that's one area Innova could work on. Their perceived quality.
What I would like to see is a disc golf manufacturer that publishes velocity and flight affecting environmental data (like elevation) present when determining flight numbers. So I would know how fast I have to throw a disc in order to achieve the published flight characteristics.
I swear that whom ever is determining flight numbers at Discraft is throwing them at about 80mph cause every disc I have from them is much more OS than the numbers would suggest.
I envision being able to walk in to a disc golf shop, having my form and release velocity checked, and then having a set of discs selected for me based on my performance. Much like what happens in a ball golf shop when selecting clubs. Wow! what a service.
So, be the visionaries that you once were.
Make it less confusing for people to select discs.
BTW, I couldn't care less which players are playing for which company. That doesn't affect how discs fly for me. At all.
I've been wondering where you've been. You're one of my favorite disc golf channels, glad to see you back with some top notch content!
My first discs were Discraft. I remember my cyclones and xclones fondly.
Shout out to the OGs #1 IN DISC GOLF
Why is McBeth talking about himself in the third person? 😅
Great vid. Definitely A lot of history for Innova which I think will help them secure some of those top players they need to push plastic. But I am curious to see how all of the newer companies continue to stack up and get their share of top players as well.
Innova is still putting out new molds, has enough upper level players and has distribution. If they stop having a mold for every shot and arm speed or they completely lose out on all top players then THAT is when they might be in trouble. Their share will continue to decrease, but total volume should stay high enough to maintain for the foreseeable future. Discraft and MVP are definitely doing good work in making discs and having talented pro players.
My very first discs were from a Franklin starter set😢. Shortly thereafter, some Good Samaritans on the course sent me to our local pro shop to get a used starter set. All of those disc’s except two were Innova. Valkyrie has been in my bag since then.
Valkyrie
Clutch
Mako
Sinus
Leopard
I'd love to see a full 2 hour doc by you, editing is great and information is rapid and interesting 👍
Agreed, if they don't do something fast, then they're get taken over. Discraft is already on a charge. The Gannon Burr move would be very smart. If they could poach other young guys like Antilla, Ellis, Gossage etc. Players that are on the rise, then they'd get more market share back. I think that the apparel space is grossly underserved in Disc Golf. I know lots of people that would spend quite a lot on cool apparel but the selection out there is either limited or pretty crappy. I think that's a missed opportunity for brands.
Agreed on the apparel game, its mostly junk with maybe a couple exceptions. Most disc golfers are also poor though, most players you see out there in higher end brands like Nike are only wearing it because they went to Ross or an outlet shop. Not sure premium apparel would thrive in the sport quite yet.
Look up local line apparel for some cool stuff.😮
We all do well when we all do well! I believe Innova wants to participate, not dominate. They paved the path and now more companies get to have a diagram of running a disc company. I throw mostly Mint but always have an Innova/DM mold to fall back on if needed. Great video as usual 👍🏼🤘🏼🙏
Great point! They very well may feel that way.
So crazy that less than 5 years ago Innova was the juggernaut. Then players started leaving and Innova didn't seem to care enough to try to hold onto them. Now it seems like the few top players left at Innova are staying out of the goodness of their hearts.
Innova is still the juggernaut, youre just more knowledgeable about disc golf so you know about niche brands. Innova and dynamic is all thats in walmart and dicks sporting goods.
Hahahaha whatever
I think in this case it's just other companies stepping up in the market, offering more competition. I don't see Innova trying to buy out a ton of players, but I do think they'll get a few free agents and be content to compete, instead of dominate.
As the name Innova suggests, its core competitive advantage was to innovate. It has created more lines than anyone, constantly trying out now molds, plastics, etc. After decades of innovating when the sport was new, now all these products are confusing, and the need for reliability of production is becoming a powerful competitive advantage appreciated by serious players, a larger segment of the market.
Also true, Innova owns the low end retail market. Those distribution channels are strong revenue streams, where cheap price is more important than quality product.
The disc manufacturing market is maturing, the markets are sementing. One company can no longer be at the top of everything.
It is imposible to out-innovate, out-quaility and out-cheap the competion at the same time.
Success often plants the seeds of its own demise.
You are correct. Innova is at a strategic crossroad. It isnt as simplistic as sponsorship, although very important. Innova has options, and all choices will cause it some pain.
My advice for Innova is
1. Retire many of their lines, molds and plastics, so they can focus on improving the manufacturing quality control to match competitors.
2. Ninety plus percent of disc golfers can't throw faster than 45mph. Since Innova owns retail chains, they can create a brand targeting these players on discs that boost performance of slower arm players.
3. Create a serious pro brand, premium prices. Quality plastic, great grip, higher speed discs that increase performance of the best players in the world. Make their discs desired by the best because they are the best. Sponsor those that love their discs.
4. Continue to innovate, but keep it focused on the above.
Easy? Absolutely not. And what is also true, they can't keep doing the status quo.
"Success often plants the seeds of it's own demise"
Oof we've all seen that. What a great quote.
They're not worried about maintaining the 'status quo', whatever that means. They're emphasis, correctly so, is on the grass roots of the sport. As the professional level matures and contracts begin to reflect the actual payouts, Innova will adjust. How does a $7000 1st place prize justify millions in contracts? Every company is being blinded by dollar signs right now (e.g. Lone Star). Dunipace is sitting back watching everything shake out, just being a careful observer. Heimburg seems likely to become the next cult hero. Hail Vinnie. Will he become Innova's first million dollar man? Maybe.
They already do all those things, outdated molds are retired like the spider coyote and mako, dx line for noobs, halo for pros.
I still think innova has the best discs ever made, however they have not done well with players. I remember will schusterick had an issue on the road years ago & said innova was not willing to even help him to get to the next big tournament. This was After winnning usdgc and being a top tier player. They have to step up with the sponsorship deals and start securing more top players. They have the money so it only makes sense for the brand. Dave dunipace has pretty strong opinions and honestly until the regime changes I don't see it getting better for Innova.
I throw whatever disc works for me in certain situations. That's why my bag is mixed. I've been throwing an Innova Wraith in Champion plastic for years now. But I also throw discs by Dynamic, Lat 64, Westside and Streamline (MVP). Innova is how I entered the sport.
Drew Gibson still thorws their molds...Its not about the discs or the company other than Innova's unwillingness to pay Pro players more. Thats it. It just comes down to money. No more no less. Had Innova offered Paul $11 million he'd be pimping Destoyers and McPro Roc3's.
Innova built the foundation and now mvp has taken the reigns. Still throwing my Turn though.
My theory why these big name players leave Innova, is they just get better offers for signing with their new company. They could be leaving for a multitude of reasons, but I doubt it is cause they don't like the plastic/molds or lack tour series discs. The next generation of disc golfers could bring more "hype" back to Innova. And when Calvin H. wins worlds this year the sales will sky rocket. When I go to my local disc golf shop. Innova always has the most discs and maybe always the cheapest. I threw discraft for my first disc over 12 years ago, found this neon Nuke OS, simply bought it cause my teenage years I played a lot Call of duty and loved getting nukes haha
You touched on all these players leaving Innova, but you really didn’t talk about why. There have been countless stories over the past years about the way they treat their talent, to showing that they are slow to adapting with the times as far social media goes. Patent Pending did a great interview with Val Jenkins that touches on A LOT of why I feel Innova is struggling.
I think MVP is going to prove to be the Nike of disc golf....... Time will tell
Really great video. You’re very thoughtful and well-spoken. I also can vibe a little bit on the Nike/Basketball comparison. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the support!
My first discs were a valkyrie, leopard3, and aviar. All of which i've given to friends to get them into the game. I have nothing against innova but personally i just enjoy buying and trying other brands. Currently liking dynamic and mvp (mostly due to simon signing with them)
Exactly why they signed him. They want people like you to be influenced to buy their discs :p
#TheSimonEffect - Aka #TheMcBethEffect. Discraft was absolute crap before McBeast came over and they got to celebrate all the world titles he had won (all with Innova at the time! 😂)
I now own and throw several Discraft molds, but I think MVP has the best plastic in the business. That being said, >80% of my bag is Innova - mostly because I’ve been throwing them for about 20 years (since my youth pastor put an Aviar in my hand in 2003. 🤷♂️
I have used Innova discs since I first started playing in 1987. The only non-Innova disc I throw is a Buzzz. I doubt that I will ever change brands unless a company develops a plastic that feels like DX & wears like Champion.
My bag is extremely open but still have yet to find a better replacement for my Thunderbird, Wraith and Destroyer.
My original starting discs bag were a mix of Innova, Lightning and two discraft's discs. With a couple of wham-o mixed it
well made video! I expect that if they do not keep investing in pros to show their molds, other companies (discraft, mvp, trilogy, lone star) will feasibly take them and use sponsored players to grow their sales numbers immensely
Important to note that the market has changed by a lot. The competition is a lot tougher. The cost to support a pro has gone way up as well. All I know is that Innova better keep Calvin VERY close. They better ink that man a serious contract to the likes of Ricky and Paul. It's rare that a company has a top 5 player and future champion on their team since the begining. I go with Calvin. My favorite player out there on all levels.
Need more of this kind of content🙌🏽
2 things: 1.) To be fair, Infinite gives sales data from their website disc sales. It might reflect an accurate depiction, but it might not. They have also been relentlessly promoting their own disc line because they have the ability to push their own line of discs much more easily, which increases recognition and sales for them. Therefore, some of these sales charts might be a little skewed. 2.) Innova is by far the largest manufacturer and also makes discs for other brands/companies, ie Infinite Discs. It actually helps them when the competitors discs sell well when they have a hand in manufacturing those discs. So my thought is that yes, competition is increasing, but as the largest manufacturer, they're benefiting from that as well.
It's a question i've been asking myself for a couple years now. Terrific video! Thanks!!
Thanks!
Calvin Heimburg seems to be doing just fine throwing Innova discs.
Plus while they aren't releasing numbers its said they paid him and Henna and Evelina good money to stay.
It’s the Fender of Disc Golf. Calvin will carry until Gannon or someone else up and coming joins and rises up.
See i cant see the fall of innova with how popular the Destroyer is as the #1 distance driver along side the zeus, the firebird, especially the sexton firebird, and even the aviar and so on. I think that they will always be a reliable backbone to the sport. Now days, people will try and new disc and usually compare it to innova or discraft. Oh, this overstable disc is similar to the firebird. I mean even the raptor is compared to the firebird. Innova will always have the staple molds imo, and really unique ones like the rocs which rarely any other conapanies have discs like.
And even then, this is how my brain works and I assume a lot if other people think the same way. I love trying new brands, and if the new disc I'm trying or bagging directly translates from an innova disc, then I will bag one of each. The "OG" and then the New one. Like for example, I bag a firebird and a Draco. The OG and the newer one. Obviously it's the same mold but different company. Same with the Destroyer and the Zeus, and with the lion and a Wasp which I no longer bag because I found more reliability in the lion.
considering the strength of the field now compared to even as little as five years ago, no single company is gonna hold a player base that dominates the field. so yes, innova will no longer dominate the field, but no one company is going to take that spot.
The argument made was not very compelling because Innova does give players their own unique discs - tour series and signature series - whereas converse did not specialize shoes at all - according to the video. The video also did not mention how many great fpo players Innova has now as well. The arguments made in the video did not feel fleshed-out to me.
There was certainly more we could have gone into (and wanted to). Perhaps one day a follow up is in order. Thanks for the feedback!
Go into any Innova Pro's bag or stash and you will find that the best disc was made between 1999 and 2004. It should say CE or 11x on it. The discs back then had style.
Great Video! THanks for making it
Innova is going to be just fine. Aside from the Swedish-made brands, I don’t see another manufacturer that is on this scale. Even the “inconsistency” of innova molds, I think, mostly has to do with the sheer quantities produced (plastic batches change, molds wear, seasonal changes in temp/humidity in the factories, etc.)
Aside from that, they truly have been on the forefront of “innovation” in the game.
I don’t throw much innova up to mids but for fairways and up I don’t see a better choice. If you lose one, you can replace it. Good F2 selection. Full lineup for any arm, etc. No issue with the other brands at all, the more the merrier, but Innova’s demise is being greatly exaggerated.
I love Innova. I only really through innovva . The star wraith is my go to driver and I love the kc Aviar. I will keep with Innova for as long as I play. It was my starting company. ❤
I think with time, Innova is going to slide away. In my opinion, there’s several other companies the make much better discs, especially MVP and Lat64/DD. Innova is only popular because most sports stores don’t carry other brands yet so they have a monopoly on beginners and casuals. In my experience teaching new players, the moment you give them something that isn’t Innova they almost always move on to the other brand.
I think the moment we start seeing other brands in Walmart and Dick’s is the moment that Innova loses the casual niche…unless they start improving the quality of their products
I switched over mostly to DD but then started throwing the Shryke. That's one hell of a disc, so I still bag some innova. Lol
The secret in any business is to join the flow of the niche & not go against the grain to compete. Don't be just one Brand become multiple Brands become the ultimate Manufacturer for Higher Quality products for All different companies. That's how you become Dominant & #1.
I simply cannot take this video seriously when Calvin Heimburg is playing the way that he is. Right now, Calvin is the best disc golfer in the world and it does not look like he is slowing down.
Innova will sponsor the Japan open in a couple of weeks... it will not be PDGA sanctioned and they will finally get to throw max weight plastic.... 30 years after Japan and Innova joined together to corner the disc market in Japan.
i think if they get gossage (forehand), buhr (all around beast), and a few others, I think they can be back in the top manufacturers lineup
I think this is a very interesting premise and eventually overtime you may be right. However I do think right now Disc golf companies are overpaying on these top sponsorships and could be bankrupting themselves in the long run. You have to sell a lot of discs to recoup a $1 million a year contract. I think I’m the long run innova may prove to be the Patriots, who long term dominance was largely due to refusing to overpay star players for the overall benefit of the organization.
As someone who throws a bunch of brands, I can honestly say you can tell when you’re holding a discraft disc how quality they are. I grew up in my disc golf life on innova and love certain discs of theirs but discraft is just a better product.
I don’t agree with that at all, their ESP plastic is awful, and Z plastic is slippery.
@@pinkmusicdude ok. No need to argue with you
It’s just that there are so many good companies making high quality discs now compared to ten or twenty years ago.
FPO is an increasingly important aspect of the game for fans of both genders, IMO. For one thing, I can't throw 600', so the MPO tour series discs are useless to me. But I can throw what a lot of the FPO players throw and get a full flight. Some of the stats were likely a bit skewed to make the argument, too. For example, a drop-off in Innova sales is mentioned, but I suspect that the other big brands also saw a dropoff due to the end of Covid, inflation, and increasing competition from numerous other smaller brands. What all the big companies really need to worry about is a competitor coming along and selling discs that are absolutely just as good, and are more consistent from run to run, for half the price.
I liked your points. I do wish you would have mentioned Innova's deep, deep FPO roster.
Yes, definitely something we could have explored. Perhaps for another video.
I dont buy discs because pros throw em, i buy discs I like.
I only really throw a gstar firebird with innova now days
Once Calvin leaves, they die. He is a true superstar worth investing in and I think they know that. If he ever leaves...yikes.
The sale of most discs is based on hype. Everyone is always looking for the next silver bullet. New companies are always trying different things as it is the only way to distinguish themselves. What I have noticed most is that Innova has many discs that have the same name, stats and often artwork for a decade. Other companies bring molds in and out of circulation. Discmania hauling out the CD2 and renaming it the CD1 with a buttload of marketing and special editions and different plastics dont necessarily make for a better disc, but new people entering the sport dont know that the CD2 was retired for a reason.
Its true fans play a part. Thats why the trend now is to sell the crap out of commemorative discs of someone winning tournament XXX or YYY. They even tell you that the proceeds will go towards "supporting" that particular player on tour, which depending on how the contracts are written allows fans to subsidize the companies salary to a pro. Selling the same old discs with claw marks through the branding is another obvious marketing hype. Those discs dont fly any better than ones without the claw. So the question really is who are you selling the discs to?
The video seems to suggest that they only sell to fans. People who pay insane amounts for collector item basketball shoes. And that that money should go to sponsoring pros. Well be careful what you wish for Paul. You could end up doing it like Golf does. It used to be the Pro got paid what he deserved through big tournament winnings. He could also pick up some work selling orange juice or Avis rent a cars. The amount they got from golf club mfg's was a tiny part of the pros income. You can see it now. The money isnt even in the clubs or the players its in the TV rights. The tours controlled that and the new tour they have to account for that is disrupting the golf world big time.
In the end the biggest element of a disc manufacturer is to make the best discs. If you plan to sell average discs through Pro hype it will eventually come to an end.
The dynamic of the majority of pros winning with Innova used to be based on discs and the fact that they were good discs and the biggest company that could afford to sponsor that many Pros. The other mfg's knew that and paid outrageous sums to get a pro away from them. As their products were a tiny fraction of sales or wins compared to Innova, there was really no where to go but up. How is that rocket science? When every company does that the pros will thin out per mfg because mfg's can only afford to pay those insane fees to a few select people. Those people will continue to win the same amount relative to the field they play against because in the end the difference is the talent and not the disc.
Ive thrown a lot of discs and like them ok, but Destroyers, Wraiths, Valks, Boss, and their various fairway drivers, all up there in my favorites. And as my arm speed has decreased with age, Daedalus has allowed me to maintain some of my distance glory.
Ive been playing for 3 years i loved innova the first year but now im more into mvp disc
Innova is a titan in disc golf and its not going to change. I am sure there's a cost-benefit analysis to paying pros a certain amount and how much that leads to disc sales. I think they know the data better than anyone else.
Nice mini doc!
This is a pitch for Paul+, a group vying to purchase innova (which still doesn’t automatically capitalize)
Innova reinvested in its own disc line up hence the new halo runs on all molds. If a company can make money on its own not relying on marketing I can see why they don’t need professional throwers anymore social media makes those sales and can be in every hand held device in the world. No need to pay if you don’t have to the dollars will pour in regardless
Seems a bit flawed to lean so heavily on Infinite discs disc sales stats when so many discs are sold direct to consumer and through countless other retailers. I’m not say those Infinite stats aren’t relevant I’m simply unsure they represent the entire market.
We hear you, and realize it may not be indicative of the entire market, but it does provide a signal of what is happening within segments of the market and does impact their overall standing.
I know Matt Orum and he has complained alot about the lack of pay Innova offers compared to others. The terms of the contracts are geared toward touring pros and not everyone can flip their own bill and wait for reimbursement.
Innova is fine as a basic brand. They simply don't bring everything the market is capable of, so obviously there will be other brands, but I don't think Innova is going anywhere. Anecdotally, at least 70% of casual disc golfers rely on at least one Innova mold, and at least 50% have two or more. In my opinion, this is not only because Innova molds are common, but also because they're familiar to almost every disc golfer. Like you said, pretty much everyone starts with an Innova disc, and since they produce more starter discs than any other brand, they are able to get into Wal-marts and REIs where no other brand has. To be honest, I think many disc golf brands are okay with a more niche market for now, because they can sell higher quality discs for higher prices to consistently returning customers.
I think that DGA, Innova, and Discraft pioneered the sport/industry of disc golf through hard work, innovation, and perseverance. Regardless of who plays for them, they have been manufacturing discs for consumers for a very long time.
And, it's the consumers that drive the market. Not the players.
Sure, the players provide the attraction but it's consumers that provide the money.
As a consumer, I don't foresee myself changing brands any time soon regardless of how good the marketing is from other companies.
Up until the covid pandemic, disc golf was struggling.
Now that things are booming, there seems to be a lot of companies taking advantage of the financial gains that can be had. Very few of those companies are showing any kind of innovation or ingenuity.
There does seem to be heavy investments in aesthetics and neat looking stamps and logos but not a lot of innovation in regards to basic disc design.
It’s not quite actuate to say innova sales went down 5.6% after Paul left. The sales for the entire industry have exploded.
What dropped is there market share. Which could in part be because of pro players leaving as you suggest but is also due to an influx of new companies in the market. Innova May have a slightly smaller piece of the Disc golf pie but it’s a much bigger pie than it used to be so it’s definitely not like they are struggling financially.
Last 5 discs I found while playing: 4 Innova, 1 MVP
I can totally see this kind of trend happening, as it is already, but look at the players who left Innova and requested that their new company develop Innova type discs(DD3, Zeus, etc). Innova will always be the company to measure a new standard against, and as more and more people continue to play, and discs get beat in, they may find themselves reaching for a Destroyer instead of a Zeus or Cloudbreaker.
My 1st disc set was not Innova. I purchased a set from Dynamic Disc. I have 2 Innova discs no and they never leave the bag. Now I have Latitude 64 in my bag thanks to Kristin. I have always felt Innova was a 2 rate company. Their discs feel cheap an flimsy. For me it's all about the feel of the discs. Dynamic and Latitude64 nails that for me.
I still throw mostly Innova but have a good mixed bag.
They need some pros, at this point they need to keep Calvin whatever it takes. Beyond that, I believe good ole product improvement would pay. For example, how about adjusting flight numbers for different plastics instead of pretending they translate? Or controlling the setting process for more consistency? More halo options.
Gotta retain destroyer dominance, I love them, and would probably own more if I could trust the runs disc to disc. Specifically, I recently lost a g star. If I felt it was replaceable, I'd have ordered another one that day
My issue with Innova is hearing players talk about "Runs of X discs". I don't want to shift through a dozen destoryers to find one that flies like it should. Same gripe about discraft (nukes).
This is the same for all manufactures, innova just makes so many more that runs can be different
Legacy discs are my jam. The line up made by the player for the player. So there isn't 5 thousand varieties you need to try to find what works. After all consistent pellets and conditions make for consistent discs.
I think Dave should take a step back.
Innova will never become converse... they sell most types of disc and plastics and cages by far the any other company! Most up and Comers get sponsored by them and get their own mold. That's what makes them a staple in disc golf and will be this way for many years to come.
Still throw a Cro I bought with my first disc purchase in 2009
Spoiler, I also bought a Groove. lol
The connection to the NBA and their shoe deals is a laughably poor stretch. NBA players are on contracts with actual teams- owned by actual billionaires. Disc golfers are on contracts with just manufacturers. When an NBA team wins a championship, fans aren’t cheering for Nike, they’re cheering for the player/team. Disc golf companies aren’t “teams.” They’re entities that sponsor players- and since they are the main source of income for the players, it’s just about money. Every company makes the same discs anyways. Just look at the PDGA approved discs specifications. So to the players, it’s not the company- it’s, which company will pay me more.
This exactly
Yeahhhh... @Jervis Her I think you are missing the point. @Rota Disc Golf is not talking about the players per say... Rather the inevitable rise or demise of the brand. The correlation to the NBA shoe deals is perfect as he literally explained in the video above that When the player chooses to go to where there is more money offered and more done for the player... Then another company loses. Ironically your last sentence kind of agrees with the entire premise of this video.. Use literally any example you want. It doesn't have to be the NBA... But the point is if a manufacturer IS NOT sponsoring top players... then they in turn will likely not have great sales. I.E. The Nike - Converse example.
@Seth Ray Innova currently has the number 1 player in the world. If anything Innova just signed the Jordan of disc golf to a long term contract and yet we are wondering if they made the right move.
@@tomatojuice984 No denying this. But the question was... Was this move 1 for 1. Was losing multiple top pros over the last few years equivalent to signing only 1? Especially when it comes to signature discs... I'd say no. But its your opinion and you are entitled to it! Again I don't disagree, it was a good signing for Calvin and Innova, but will it hold up to be enough?
jeez, what a lot of people consider the best discs seem to come from innova, but I definitely am influenced by the players who are sponsored by the brand. I was throwing all discmania until Simon left but now I've bought a few discraft, innova and MVP discs. I wonder if they'll make the right move or not.
Fan of Latitude 64 myself.
Love the game, love the Doc, Love Innova but Love some of the others as well. Let's hope the game goes more mainstream. More money = more love for our favorite players.
I don’t really think you can compare discs company to company everything is different and based on preference, nowadays players are switching due to contracts and money which they cannot pass up. You see Simon leaving for mvp because he couldn’t pass up that offer and Anthony Barela even said it hurt him to leave innova. Money changes everything