THE INSANE RISE & FALL OF AS I LAY DYING (he tried to hire a hitman)
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- Опубликовано: 16 июн 2024
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What is behind the rise and fall of As I Lay Dying? I talk about As I Lay Dying's rise to fame in the Christian metalcore scene, Tim Lambesis' arrest for attempting to hire a hitman, As I Lay Dying's reunion, and the big question: can we forgive Tim Lambesis?
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0:00 Intro
2:43 The rise of As I Lay Dying
5:28 Tim Lambesis' arrest
10:09 Steroids and atheism
13:37 Should we forgive him? 
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Maybe he should’ve renamed the band to - “As I wish my wife lay dying”. Too soon? Too real?
On a serious note - I remember Tim Lambesis ignominy really damaged the credibility of Christian metal even more. It was already on thin ice with the OG metalheads who see Christian metal as hypocritical and sterile. But then this scandal just made it even more of a target.
I always enjoyed their music because of the solid riffs and heaviness and the positive uplifting lyrics, despite not being religious or Christian.
I find the positive lyrics a welcome break from the bleakness and darkness that’s pervasive in the metal genre. So they seemed a breath of fresh air.
Finn do You remember Lostprophets? You should make a video about Ian's case
Would it be too much to ask why you went caffeine free? No judgment, I know some people do it for different reasons
Punk Rock MBA + True Crime cross over. This is the time to be alive
NetFlix would pick this up for a few seasons
@@jbunnz31169 and then promptly cancel it with very little notice, or explanation
@@kronabus199a but then a year later you get Evan Peters playing Tim Lambesis in the wildly inaccurate and inflated biopic-drama
I’d love to see Finn host a Forensic Files style music-related true crime series
I want more of this.
On the forgiveness part, I don't think any of us that aren't friends and family of him and his ex wife have a say in that. As far as the music goes, I don't go out of my way to listen to them but if a song comes on during a playlist shuffle I usually listen to it.
Seriously, fuck anyone's forgiveness but hers and her children's and her family's. Who gives a shit that the guitar player "let go of all that". He didn't have someone trying to hire a hitman to kill him.
Which is hilarious. Because the people that screech the most about it are the ones who werent even remotely affected. Meanwhile his ex and bandmates forgave him. Lol
@@johnblack8872 could you forgive him if it were you he wanted to kill? Some people can't deal with that whether it's about them or someone else. Just saying. Not screeching just not supporting him in those actions either.
@@floydsemlow8253 yes.
I think as fans we are all more than allowed to have our opinions. He isn't just some dude, he is a public figure whose art is readily available to young people and everyone else.
I’ve put on a lot of Christian rock shows and it’s always been widely known to people in that scene that there are a lot of posers (pretending to be Christian so they can get plugged into that audience/network).
What I think is more interesting is that, at the same time Tim was getting arrested, Head and Fieldy in KoRn were having revivals after their shows. A lot of the secular metal bands that have been deemed satanic actually have Christians in them. They may not be “perfect” Christians… but they’re also not hiring hitmen to kill their wives or lying to their audience to get their money and adoration.
Head is such a cool dude
Perfect Christians as if the bible isn't full of stories of murder and rape and multiple popes literally tortured people what a joke.
And yet at the deepest levels those "christians" are still pagan.
We could say the caeser of rome had a revival when they converted to christianity. Except thats not what happened. What happened is christianity was blended with the very paganism christianity was always against. IE a bunch of pagans got baptized in more pagan rituals and never actually became christian.
That being said God can use even his enemies to plant seeds of truth to lead people to him.
Love and Death is a good band. A Christian nu-metal band is very rare.
@@bldfalcon Dude I grew up on Thousand Foot Krutch and P.O.D. . Nu-metal is just rare in general these days
When the news of this broke, I was appalled at how many people were leaving comments on social media that said things like "Pray for Tim" or other messages of support as if he were a victim, but it seemed as if almost no one considered his family, the true victims. It seemed as you said, that he was immediately let off the hook by many fans because they liked his art. I was a huge AILD fan, but that did not blind me to the wrongness of it all.
I said pray for him. But i was being sarcastic.
@@Ottophil that can be pretty damaging, not everybody can see through sarcasm
You can pray for someone and still see the error they did....
When you pray for someone it doesnt mean oh God please keep tim out of prison. It means help tim come back to normal and help fight his demons.
In fact this is one of many core things about christianity to pray for those who do evil, love your enemies. Etc. it does not give a person a pass. Period.
Heres an example. A meth addict. A meth head is in fact breaking the law. Same as tim. They are hueting themselves and can hurt others. Yet family and friends and even randoms can still pray for that person to get better and see straight.
Now. After all is said and done it is interesting that fans who were not affected at all seem to ride this morally superior high horse and claim without any remorse that tim should never be forgiven....despite never personally being hurt. Meanwhile his ex wife, his band mates all eventually forgave him. In fact if they are indeed a christian band as some have claimed not forgiving him would be very antichristian. Forgiveness does not mean a person gets a pass and the forgiver should remain in a abusive relationship for example. In this case they can forgive tim and then say unfortunately we wont be working with you anymore.
Its ok to pray for sinners
I remember back in time, so many comments insulting his ex wife, the thin line between a fan and a crazy AF
Murder/homicide is one of the few crimes where it actually pays off to be really shitty at it.
Cause if you succeed you will most likely get life in prison. But if you suck at it, and fail, you practically get a slap on the wrist by comparison.
I rarely do some comments on yt, however I want to say that I'm shocked and proud of You because at the very end when you've started asking those questions about redeeming Tim to viewers you said that we have to answer this by ourselves, not pushing your own opinion or being biased or anything so other people can think for themselves
What a great content creator
He knows we’ll still fight about it. Almost as if the content isnt important
In addition to the question of “can you separate the art from the musician” there’s also the question, “if someone pays for their wrongdoing it the eyes of the law, can you begin to support them again?” When Lambesis got out of jail, it seemed like he’d really changed, but recent events with the band suggest otherwise.
What happened recently?
@@AFacemarkedbyFea he threatened to eat everyones lunchables on the tour bus
People rarely change imo. Now drugs, in this case steroids, can make you do crazy shit you would otherwise never have done. BUT, the underlying thoughts and feelings that made him WANT to do what he did probably have always been there and will probably always be there.
@@microchrist6122 unforgivable. Throw him back in for 20 years
@@AFacemarkedbyFea Their lead guitarist left and described it as a toxic situation, bassist too, I believe.
I met Tim back in 2010 at an Austrian Death Machine show. I was just some 18 year old dude at the time and he was incredibly nice and friendly so I was very shocked to hear about this too.
Well. You weren't his estranged wife so....
They were my favorite band, and each album seemed to get better and better. Such a sad way to see a band fall end.
Shaped by Fire was an excellent album imo
@@casonriley9958 Probably one of their best imo. I'll always have a soft spot for Frail Words Collapse however since that's what got me into them.
I still love this band, but I'd easily go from newest to oldest in terms of worst to best. Just my opinion though.
Side note: Look at Tims IG, his body has ballooned again to 3X its size. No way those gains are natural. He sounds winded af during the shows. Shows that he somehow talked the guys from Unearth and Miss May I into filling for, which, god bless them honestly. Couldn't have been easy.
Bet its not too much longer before we see another chapter written in this saga. Wish everyone involved the best.
Not gonna lie, I wasn't expecting this to be as well balanced and nuanced as it was. You've made your feelings about Tim very clear on your second channel and I didn't see how you could cover this without your personal opinion bleeding through. Great video and thanks for proving once again, that I am a presumptuous idiot lol
I have a ton of respect for Jake from August Burns Red, so when Heartsupport (which is Jake’s mental health stuff) backed Tim, I actually had a bit of a changed heart. Hearing the band, those in the scene, his work as a social worker, and others speaking up gave me hope. I still think he does and should live with the guilt and the record of his crimes while he’s still on this earth, but I was willing to listen to the group again. The lyrics fell very in line with recovery, remorse, and things I need in my own life. However, knowing now that the band has left and that’s why we don’t have new material… I’m a bit skeptical again. That’s got to be triggering for all the people in his life when he does anything in the similar vein to how he was. I’m all for redemption for anyone while still holding them accountable. I pray he’s doing as well as he reported years ago.
Phil Sgrosso is still in the band, and Tim also has a new project called Born Through Fire
My guy .. I love and appreciate all the effort you put in your videos 10/10
Rise and "fall" of as i lay dying.
Me looking at how well recieved their latest album was and awaiting what the new members will bring to the table
Great video, and a very good way to analyze our minds and the way we think. I have been a fan of as i lay dying for many many years, they were the band that introduced me into metal back in 2005/2004; but it really is hard to let go of what Tim did. Sometimes I´m not even convinced of his "renewed" life that he has...everything just seems to be so strange and weird, sadly its no the same anymore and it will never be
It's important to remember that forgiving and forgetting aren't always mutually exclusive.
When the band was willing to move on and forgive, I thought I could too. As they start dropping out, I wonder if they made a mistake, and than, maybe I did too.
I want to support them because I enjoy the music. A lot of An Ocean Between Us is heavily tied in with memories in and just after highschool. It's difficult to let that go.
You don't have to support the band to still enjoy the music they created prior to this absurd story, though.
I’m in the same boat. I was thinking if the band mates could forgive him then he must be a changed man.
Though now that they’ve all left, it makes me think it was all an act on Tim’s part and once he fell into old habits again, the band mates left.
With the OG crew gone, I’m no longer listening to them, which sucks.
I hope nothing bad/crazy comes out about August Burns Red, that’ll ruin me 😂
This is exactly how my feelings went too. I miss listening to AILD, and I do think Tim shouldn't be further punished after serving his time, however short it ended up being. But I also don't want to support him being in a line of work where he has huge influence and power. Basically his crime may be "forgiven" but it shouldn't be forgotten.
Basically my opinion. Kinda think he’s just touring with the name now to get a paycheck. Oh well.
I can't remember if it was Nick, Josh of Jordan. But apparently the main reason for a couple of them decided to leave was because of the stigma of it the situation. And it's understandable. They were willing to give to a try. And, yes, there was a shit ton of backlash and still is. So it's probably mentally exhausting to constantly hear it. For all we know, they could've just been more at peace with moving on. Tim is very involved with public service and mental health now. A life coach for people with domestic violence charges and anger issues. I accept him because he is actually serving others who need to make behavioral changes.
Yeah some people can't forgive and forget this even in the band scene. Matt Heafy of Trivium, for one didn't seem to. I was viewing one of his twitch streams, and before he came on camera his background music shuffled to an As I Lay Dying song. He came back to the stream and quickly turned the song off, seeming almost offended that it was on his playlist (made some remark like "why is THAT on there?". I then went on to put in the stream chat a question about AILD, and it was quickly deleted by the stream mods.
I have never been able to share this anywhere cuz his mods will always squash discussion of the band in his streams. But I thought id share this here.
I mean, it’s his stream, so I don’t see the problem.
@@TankTheTech i mean yeah but i was using it as an example of how people in the metal community still see AILD in a negative light
Tim was my hero as a teenager. I wrote riffs like him and Phil, I wrote lyrics like him, I dressed like him, I got into fitness because of him, I did a lot because of him. I was an adult when this happened, but it really shook me. I was pretty much done with him altogether when the case became clear, but I did open up to forgiving him when the band did, after all, they're the ones who know him, so who am I to deny his change? Earlier this year when members started leaving it became clear that there's still some serious issues with him. I saw them live in June and the show was great, but he just gave off this weird vibe like he was hiding something.
I'm a firm, absolute believer in forgiving anyone for anything, no exceptions whatsoever, but I can still see there's a part of him that hasn't changed. Do I think he's going to try to hurt someone again? No, but I do think he's probably hurting people in other ways inadvertently.
I don't think we should forgive anyone because we like their art. That's a stupid reason. We should forgive people because unforgiveness can weigh on you as much as them. Hate destroys people, and it usually destroys the hater more than the hated. Forgiveness doesn't wipe away what happened, and therefor should be predicated on the severity of what happened. They're totally unrelated things. I know that you're not a Christian, but it is foundational to Christianity to forgive no matter how much it hurts to do so. You may not think he should be forgiven, but many of AILD fans are still Christians, and so to us not forgiving him is literally sinful, entirely antithetic to our beliefs. There is enough atonement for all, so I shouldn't be sparing with the little amount of forgiveness I am able to offer.
I do think people hold entertainers to a lower standard of morality, for sure. We raise our standards for morality to all, and lower our standards for forgiveness for all as low as possible, looking for excuses to forgive people if we can. We should be so quick to forgive that it shocks people, and then we should hold them accountable to change, encouraging along the way. We should confuse people with how well we treat others.
Tim lambesis is a joke, he’s never been sorry that he tried to kill his ex wife, he’s only ever been sorry that he got caught.
What did he do to you that he needs your forgiveness?
@@emersonr7481 That's actually my point.
“he gave off a weird vibe like he was hiding something”
That’s a whole ‘lotta projection there bud. Especially considering you already admitted to him being your “hero” and copying him in every way. It sounds like you may have your own issues, so it’s probably better to focus on those, instead of others issues.
I never understood this situation. I was genuinely shocked when the fans accepted Tim.
Same, he should not have a career anymore.
i'll be the one with the hot take.
Def fked up what he did... however he did his time. Paid his dues.
Maybe its because i just recovered from a 4 year drug addiction not too long ago and Shaped by Fire resonates with me so damn much and i'm just extremely biased, but i've accepted Tim and have moved on from thinking about it
They’re idiots.
@@zeemancan3713 Yes everyone has a skeleton in the closet. But I don't think you should compare a mistake you have done to yourself (addiction) with that stuff Tim Lambesis did.
They like his and the band's music. Easy to understand
An Ocean Between Us is one of my favorite albums ever, of any genre. A total 10/10 no skip album. And I still think that. But ever since the arrest, I've just lost the desire to listen to it, or any of their music. I'm not mad at Tim, and it's not my place to forgive him or not. He's done his time, and I hope for his sake that he really is the changed man he says he is (though I have my doubts), and I certainly don't begrudge the guy making a living now that he's out, but it's just not what I want to be a part of. I don't want him "cancelled," or his new music boycotted from streaming or anything like that. Listen to his stuff if you want to, that's your choice. But it's just not for me anymore.
Great comment…. Very well said. I wish more people in any situation would have the “You do you, I’ll do me” attitude
Shaped by Fire still slaps. Even harder than their old albums
When they came back with their single My Own Grave, that shit was so badass I wouldn't have even cared if the hit was successful
That is such a cracked out take. An ocean between us and shadows are security are forever goated. Ain’t no way shaped by fire is better.
@@goner.9989 They are good. I'd place Shadows Are Security in 2nd place but Shaped by Fire is still better imo. An Ocean Between Us is kinda overrated
@@blacksunshine9995 My own Grave is such a banger. Probably in my top 5 songs
Shadows are security is my all time favorite record by AILD. What’s sad is that AILD have been falling out this year. With Josh, Nick, and Jordan departing, it’s a sign maybe AILD is not going to last long. Not to mention Tim got married for the third time which I find WOW. THANKS TIM FOR RUINING EVERYTHING
Thanks for sharing this man! You posed some interesting questions about the “lower standard” for many artists, athletes, and other celebrities. Hope you’re having a good one, keep up the great content! God bless you :)
Great video! I appreciate the unbiased explanation of this situation!
I first heard As I lay dying when I was 13 (in 2017) and was hooked from the very start. They got me into Metalcore and other bands such as Trivium and Killswitch. It was only about a few months later that I found out about Tim's crimes, but then a year later they released "My own grave", so as a naive kid I thought, "Oh, ok, so everyone's forgiven him now and the whole thing's over".
5 years have passed and my opinion aren't the same. Even though it wasn't my family or anyone else I knew that Tim attempted to murder, it's still a given fact that he DID attempt that, yet is still given the chance to tour, perform and make a living off of music is a bit questionable. Not to mention that Jordan, Nick and Josh have all left the band, which leaves questions if there are bigger issues within that band after they re-formed....
I had a chance to see them in Wacken this year, none of my friends went but I decided to try. However, as I was there I just kept thinking what he did and couldn't enjoy the concert to be honest, so I left...
It's such a delicate and difficult situation, I think many people aren't sure where to stand on this. It's fine not to know.
Great video as usual. I know you sometimes upload these on the podcast, not sure how much that hurts your income but I always appreciate it. I carpool with my brother to work and we both like hearing your take on music, he doesn’t use yt much
Really enjoyed this video and love what you put out Finn, but…
I feel the conclusion here was a bit of a fence sitting perhaps safe answer allowing us to draw the line for ourselves? I was really interested to see what you felt here, as it’s a really complicated topic.
I would have loved to hear your opinion/take on it, and maybe talk about why that may be the case.
Conversely though, appreciate which ever the answer might have been, you would have probably upset a crowd of people so I do understand! Thanks for the great content.
16 year old me was gutted when this happened. To this day, they are still the best metalcore band to me. And he was by far my favorite vocalist. Such a clear sound to his voice where you could understand the words. The music, on the other hand, was tight and full of great riffs and guitar solos. The songs were memorable and heavy and the same time. The lyircs were intlligent and convincing. It was like the "full metal package" if you will.
Even after they got back together, it seems like he is still driving people out. The entire situation is so incredibly sad. They truly were great. It really is a shame.
Thanks for covering the bands I grew up on Finn. It seems like no one else is doing it on RUclips. Very well done.
Oh it's been a long time coming for this one
I friggin’ love As I Lay Dying! 🤘🔥 Was at the reunion show in San Diego. Now that Nick Hipa and everybody else has left I def second guess like Tim ya know. Hopefully they all still end up making music maybe they’ll go back to Woven War!
An ocean between us is such a badass album. Still absolutely love it
Great video for real, I gotta say I felt it ended to soon.
What a great video and what a horrible story. I didn't know about this. I think an even darker story is the one about Ian Watkins, I would love to see you do an exploration of that, I would especially be curious to know if actually anybody was ready to forgive that monster ! Maybe it's just too dark and horrible and disturbing to be something you want to include on your channel?
Everyone deserves redemption and another chance 🙏🏻
And what if he went through the correct channels and actually achieved his goal, and didn't get caught? and what if it was your mother on the receiving end, you'd still feel that way?
no. I don't believe that is true
@@givemeahandle that is your belief and that is fine we are all allowed a different view on things and i respect yours
@@mickschnabel i have always found there is no reason to think of the "what ifs", only the "what happeneds"
Yeah, gave them a chance during the Shaped By Fire album cycle, thought it was reasonable to assume they all were on good terms with each other, and at the end of the day, they were just some folks wanting to make music like they used to...
But by adding the fact that they signed with Nuclear Blast, putting out a deluxe that felt a bit "cash-grab-y", 3 of the members leaving and still touring w/o 3 fifths of the original band, the whole situation looked like, in the best case, they did a reunion based on good intentions and faith, though these faded with time, or, in the worst case, a scheme to make a business out of AILD again and put Tim back in the industry...
At this point personally, my position is that while I will still care about the music they'll eventually put out (not holding my breath that it will be as good) , I sure as hell won't go to a live show of theirs or buy stuff to support them. :/
Here is what i think as a guy who learned about AILD after all the stuff and when tim was already a part of the band again. First thing is the music, which i liked and then i looked the band and there members up. Of course i learned then about tims past but also the fact that he is back in the band and he seemed like a nice and regretfull man to me. I think that is definitely a reason why I don't hold any real grudge against him, i didn't know the person he was but only the person he is now (knowing as of seeing the public image of course). I definitely think that a person can change and therefore everybody should at least try to forgive, no matter what the person has done, even the worst things. Depending on what happened and to whom it happened makes it of course harder and i don't blame anybody who can't forgive, but if the person really changed and is regretfull, everybody deserves a second chance. To forgive does not mean to forget!
I appreciate the way you handled this video; nice work.
I miss Wovenwar. I hope Josh, Jordan, and Nick can find a way to make amends and bring that band back. That first album they released got me through freshman year of college.
Wovenwar was a solid band. I miss them.
Those first few albums really helped me in high school, but man it’s so weird listening to them now knowing what we know. It’s like trying to listen to R.Kelly, it’s just different now.
It’s weird and creepy on how so many people are still a fan of r.kelly like why in the world would support r.Kelly like the man is a pedo
To answer the initial topic for the video, yes you should be able to separate the two, but it's an individual choice. I will always love that band in their music, that doesn't mean that I agree with anything either of them have or haven't done. Some people may decide that something someone has done is just too much and they can't separate the music and vice versa, at the end of the day, just don't listen to him if it bothers you, make the world a better place not a worse one.
It's up to the individual, Katt Williams had a great quote about that years ago about how to separate the art from the artist, great video as always..
🤘🏻
Man I have good timing. I just tweeted at you this question. Great minds think alike. Thanks for all of the info!
Hey Finn. I know this is probably a very heavy subject to talk about but could you do a video on the Ian Watkins case?
he'll get demonetized/deranked for even mentioning that shit
Can we separate the art from the artist? Yes. Everytime. Should we? Thats up to you and your personal preference.
I remember Katt Williams had a really really really good quote about that, about being able to and how to separate art from the artist, honestly what bums me out even more was recently, the band not being able to finish their tour and everything, I never really looked into what happened there but I was finally going to get to see them thinking I would never ever be able to after what originally happened and then there goes again, but still one of my favorite bands and influential bands, for sure!
But yes I agree about separating the two and that it's up to thr individual and how they feel.
...but you don't have to go bashing something, you can just say I can't listen to that anymore because I can't believe the artist did that and I get reminded of every time I listen to them or something to that effect..
I mean listen to a band/artist or don't, just try and make the world a better place not a worse and more complicated one LOL
@@dmeemd7787 kind of like when Tim tried to make the world a worse place by having his wife murdered?
I think it applies more to past art - I love many movies with Kevin Spacey in them but I wouldn't support his future endeavors (if he even has any)
There are a few cases I can’t. Gary glitter, lost prophets etc. This one I can.
@@thelittleowl1 The Lost Prophets case is possibly the worst one I've heard of
As I Lay Dying has been my favorite band for since 2005. I was so excited to hear that they were returning after Tim’s release. I saw them in 2018 and bought shaped by fire. After Nick left I understood but when josh and Jordan left i figured there must be something going on with Tim that we as the fans don’t see.
Could be something with him, or maybe it's just the stigma of working with him again. A lot of people have forgiven him, but I'm sure every single day they had people asking them how they could possibly work with him again, and even if they had forgiven him, they probably had a constant paranoia in the back of their heads, watching and interpreting everything he said and every interaction with him. It was probably incredibly tiresome.
I remember sitting in my room 7 years ago jamming The Powerless Rise thinking to myself that I will never get to see this band live. Fast forward 3 years later when they dropped their single My Own Grave they had their first tour that year back together as a band. Flew out to Salt Lake City and it was one of the best shows I’ve ever been to. It took me awhile to really forgive Tim for his disgusting actions but after they were reunited I was truly convinced that something has changed and I was happy my favorite band was back together. Just recently when Nick, Josh and Jordan departed I knew something isn’t right. Phil may be still in the band but it’s obvious Tim is the common denominator. Saw them in June with Whitechapel but will never be the same without all five original members.
I don’t care what anyone says I still listen to old AILD. That shit goes hard.
It's the at the gates influences
I still bump Frail Words Collapse and Shadows Are Security all the time. Those albums are way too important to me and my love for heavy music
Exactly. Good music is good music. Life’s too short to get hung up on people you don’t actually know.
@@tmb472
You're supporting shitty behavior and broadcasting to everyone you know that it's okay to do the same. Do you also support Pantera, Dissection and all those metalcore pedo bands?
@@tmb472
What about NSBM
How about a video on LostProphets… the bands unfortunate loss of a huge rise and the utterly disgusting singer that ruined everything.
I always felt bad for the band as they were never the same with Geoff on vocals, cuz the music was phenomenal.
I feel like there's enough videos on Ian already out there ... and even then the videos out there are too much as it is.
Yeah, the As I Lay Dying stuff seems like so minor when placed next to the LostProphets situation. Probably a guaranteed demonetized video if covered.
@@westbunting4358 especially when you really read into how long Ian was doing shady shit, there’s no way the other members of lost prophets didn’t know
@@codingtranquility I don't know I feel like there's a story on Lostprophets that hasn't been told involving the entire band and everything. Ian doesn't have to be the focus.
@@westbunting4358 maybe if the video was framed like that. It's kind of like the Jacob Hoggard situation, a lot of the band members knew how he was with fans, but only came out against him after he had been accused and charged.
Great video. Can you do a video on Lamb of God singer getting arrested
The fact that you haven't made a tallah video is insane especially after the banger single they released a few days ago that album on November on 18 is gonna be insane. Anyway great video finn always love your charisma have a good one man
If we can't forgive someone for their past mistakes, we should just give everyone who has committed a crime the death penalty. What he did was a terrible decision, and is horrible, and he probably should have did more time in prison tbh, however, he did his time and has at least publicly been remorseful for it, and this is his career, everyone needs income to survive. Even people who have done horrendous things. If someone can't be give a second chance, there's no point in even having a sentence and prison term. So yes, he should be given a second chance at living his life.
As I lay dying was the band that accompanied me in my darkest times and helped me discover heavier bands so when the news came up I was disappointed and devastated. I couldn't believe what happened. But because I was still struggling with my life I kept listening.
Then I started to focus in my college studies and changed my political views and started to empathize more with the victims and rejected the band's music.
Even so, when the band announced they will get together again and that, allegedly, Tim had changed, I gave them one more chance. The new album was amazing of course...but something was off.
It was until Nick and the guys announced that they were leaving the band that I stopped to listen and care about AILD all at once.
I don't feel physically ill everytime I listen to them but when I do listen to it involuntarily, I could say I do feel somewhat uncomfortable, even if some part of me still likes the music.
By now, it just remains as some good memories, stained by a perverse man.
I relate with this so much. Tim portrayed himself as such a big-hearted person so to find out what he did just deflated me. one of the first times I recall someone I admired letting me down.
You always do a great job on being impartial great video
this band blew up in my area of central Florida in 2004-2005 and really was the band that got me into harder music.
A lot of the comments here seem to treat Tim as this unforgivable monster (like ir or not, no physical victim) while giving Burzum a pass (an actuall murderer).
Couldn't have said it better. And now with the Jeffrey Dahmer series a lot a people see it as something cool. It goes to show none of them can differentiate between "attempting to hire" and an actual murderer.
Austrian Death Machine is still goated
Good video Finn, and good job doing your research.
I just saw AILD played in Singapore for the 2nd time since Tim's release and I can say, Tim has really been humbled by what happened. The venue we had was a dingy chinese hall with poor acoustic, no barricade and the show barely had 500 pax. At the start of the show, the band was plagued with power issues, with songs cutting off midway and between one another but Tim didnt lose composure and was talking with the crowd when it happened to give the crew time to fix the power issue. At the end of the show, the band sang a birthday song and had a cake prepared for one of their crew member. I've even seen friend sharing selfies with Tim when they bumped into him at the airport, which may not be much to some people but over here, we dont get a lot of opportunities to catch metal acts, let alone even a selfie with them (without paying exorbitant meet and greet prices) and Tim was really cool about it and in all of the encounters I've seen.
I get people would despise Tim for what he did and in my eyes, Tim has redeemed himself. But, it doesnt look like Tim has forgiven himself and is still working on redeeming himself. I hope more people are able to give the band a 2nd chance.
I’d love to hear you do a deep dive on separating the art from the artist. This is a really messy subject and I enjoy hearing how you think about these kinds of complicated subjects.
It’s really simple actually. The person is shit, but the music is great. Just enjoy the music, it doesn’t mean you support an artists personal decisions, it just means you like good music 🤷🏻♂️
@@TripIn6Does that apply to Lostprophets? Considering Ian Watkins raped a one year old child, amongst many other vile, disgusting things
I remember when this happened. I think that some people can separate the art from the artist, and some people can’t do that. I don’t think there is one right answer to this. That dude is a complete tool, though, objectively.
What an insane story, very interesting to hear all that and the fact that the whole band left too. And very interesting questions asked at the end which are difficult to answer. This story definitely puts some thought to mind.
Not the whole band. Phil (one of the guitarists) is still there.
Spot on analysis Finn Good job Bud..Say what you want about AILD "Confined" is hands down one of the best metal songs ever recorded. Absolute Crusher riffs, Jordan's machine gun drumming on top of one of the most beautiful choruses you'll hear. It's a perfect song people check it out on You Tube with Max Volume! :)
I live in San Diego, I've ran into all the guys in the band many, many times. Jordan, Nick, Phil, and Josh are all amazing kind awesome dudes. Jordan owns Brick By Brick, which is THE metal venue in the area. I've met Tim a few times (he was dating my friend for a brief period) and he SEEMED (key word there) like a guy who was trying to make up for doing something awful and actually be a better person. Its tough to tell whats in someone's heart without spending a bunch of time with them. I also think that however you feel about the situation is perfectly valid. But I myself am not interested in banishing someone from Team People for a bad thing they did like 10 years ago. We forgive actual murderers in our society and in fact, us Americans tend to relish in a good redemption story.
Being someone who has seen a LOT of his favorite bands and artists revealed to be/have bad people in them (i.e. All Time Low, Issues, A Day To Remember, Pierce the Veil), what I've come to realize is that it's never an easy answer. I want to still listen to them and sometimes still do, but their actions still linger in the back of my mind and sorta taint the experience. The worst thing for me, however, is having to say that KNOWING there will be people who will shun me for doing so. I have come to realize I'm someone who can separate the art from the artist if I do like them. If I wasn't interested before, then I don't stick my hand in that pot.
To be fair the members who matter in ADTR didn’t do anything and immediately threw that lame out. Still my favorite band to this day
@@TheAverageSavage1021 they didn't throw him out, he left for their sake. If he didn't, it would be likely they'd never kick him out. These days, a band that's under those circumstances, no matter what actually happened, HAS to kick them out or else it looks sus. They waited for over a year before any departure happened.
Great video as usual Finn. You really seem disjointed from this channel though as if it just bogs you down to do it man. It seems you have a way better time doing twitch stuff. Much love man.
Really enjoying this channel
Do you dislike Shadows Fall? Whenever you mention NWOAHM they're conspicuously absent from the conversation. The Art of Balance was a hugely important album in the story of that scene. In fact the first time I ever saw As I Lay Dying was as a support act for Shadows Fall.
I don't think so, Finn did an "underrated bands" video with Shadows Fall in it a few years back
He's mentioned Shadows before..
I remember the story about Tim getting man tits in prison from coming off the roids. I laughed my ass off.
Or the April Fools Day articles about how he pulled a toilet to use it to escape his captivity!
Wait, Tim was on steroids? 🤪
Completely deserved.
@@HowtoFeelReal the steroids were doing the Governator impressions for ADM
Excellent. Just excellent video. The real question is..what if he had succeeded?
I am generally a believer in second chances. If we refuse to allow someone a chance to be better, then why would they even try?
Tim aside , what about rappers who have done or are doing genuinely horrible things? Can the same conversation be had about them? Cuz kinda like tim's case , people seem to "forgive" them really quickly
Dude, that’s called “what about-ism.” Finn makes a video about what Tim Lambedis did and then you leave a comment and go straight to “what about these rappers?”
@@krypticcoil9540 Well, considering rap is infinitely more popular than metal at this point, its not unfair. Especially considering Finn has praised rappers in the past. Rap seems to have no issue with artists who have committed crimes.
@ghost mall Young Thug and Gunna have both been slapped with RICO charges. Granted, they aren't convicted yet, however their fans are screaming to free them. Famous people seem to get a pass for shitty actions.
@@thealgorithmluvsu3788 I read your comment and I thought about it. And I’m willing to admit that you have a strong point. However, “what about-ism” is intellectually dishonest, in certain contexts it’s also cowardly, but it’s always obnoxious. We can talk about rappers later but right now we’re talking about Tim Lambesis. So instead of acknowledging the conversation about Tim Lambesis the person that replied to my comment just jumped to “what about….?” as if they were desperate to change the subject.
This would’ve been the right way to handle it without jumping to what about-ism.
“I acknowledge what Tim did that lead to Finn making this video. This is how I felt about it when I first heard. This is how I feel about it now. And since we’re dealing with this here in the Metal community and we’re all speaking up about how each of us feels about this event could we maybe talk about what’s going on in the rap community sometime?”
This was a great objective overview Finn
As I lay Dying was a huge band for me, saw them a few times at their absolute peak. I still really love them and I have forgiven Tim. I truly believe people deserve second chances.
Mind-blowing how people are able to ignore what he did. I don't see any problem if you listen their music, but attending their gigs or buying merch, that, I honestly don't understand why. Remember what happened when John Lennon said they were more popular than Jesus?
Exactly. Then when you bring it up, their fans say “That was years ago” or “He did his time” or “His wife didn’t die, so what?” It’s really stupid.
Because it’s music. I just enjoy the music, and frankly don’t care about the drama involved with the artist. If music is good it’s good. I don’t see why people get so hung up.
@@tmb472 I understand to an extent but in situations where artists have done _really_ bad shit, like Lost Prophets for example, the art is pretty difficult to separate from the artist.
@@The_JustJoshing to each their own I suppose.
It's easy to understand. The people who attend their gigs, buy merch and support the band like the music.
Great vid Finn!
First band I ever saw as a kid, the song nothing left made me want to be a drummer. I remember hearing about this and was surpised, but at the same time you never know whats going on
I’m a simple man. I don’t listen to would-be murderers
I find it to be disturbing how famous people get away with murder. If someone commits a crime their bank account balance should not have any say in their outcome. Otherwise Justice doesn't exist it's a luxury item at beast
A Full Timeline of Punk and Metal I'd love to see that by PRMBA
Solid video Finn, keep it up man
I legit was just listening to Shadows Are Security and playing chess when this popped up!
P.S. Metal is the best chess music.
(Edit) and it’s ruined. I didn’t know this even happened!?!? Woah! I’m gonna put some underoath on…
Lostprophets is great chess music too! 😊
@@iagovilarinho4859 oh my god nooooooooooooooo! Okay. I’m just gonna go with classical or something. Maybe some sigur ros. Get my chill chess on.
I like how Tim describes it as a momentary lapse of judgement. To me a momentary lapse of judgement is eating a cheese cake at 2 am in the morning, not hiring a hitman to kill my wife.
Haha
Its really been like 10 years since the arrest and i still havent fully sorted through my feelings on AILD. I loved them and their shows so much and yet I don't think I've really even listened to them since the incident. It's like a door in my brain just shut on them and when I see their name in my music library I just kinda wince and find something else. The news really hurt bc the band portrayed themselves as such positive and big hearted people. One of the first instances where someone I admired let me down and I can't imagine the shock that the truly die hard AILD fans must have felt.
The clips in this video reminded of how damn good they are/were and made me want to listen to them again. Listened to the first few songs off An Ocean Between Us and it still absolutely rules. But it felt uncomfortable listening, tarnished. I don't think they'll ever be the same for me no matter how much time passes.
I respect everyone's right to enjoy the band though and if Lambesis wants to keep going then fine. Unfortunately I think I'll have to just keep pretending the band broke up or never existed or something.
Curious about the fans who are able to still enjoy the music. What was your process? Did it take a while to come back around to AILD or when you heard about the arrest did you just shrug and keep on listening. Not here to pass judgment, just wondering because I simply never processed the news.
@Ian Riise I wasn't open to it at first. I thought the filmed intervention wasn't the best move for them. However, step one is actually making legitimate changes and taking the first step of forgiveness is to honestly acknowledge how much we hurt others. I don't know if I've ever watched a more uncomfortable video. But in hindsight, I see it as Tim allowing himself to be vulnerable. Filming an entire intervention for yourself and for your bandmates to put you in your place is 100% the start of personal growth, redemption, and honestly letting the fans know hes WANTING and WILLING to do what is needed. Also basically acknowledging the fact that he knows and does not expect forgiveness. That's self-awareness. Now, I understand he's working full time as a case manager with violent criminals and juveniles. This has been for more than a couple years. People who don't actually have that epiphany realize that doing their time is also going to be of service to others. I understand that he didn't get that much time and it was way too short in my opinion. But that wasn't my call. So, personally, i forgive him. If he is continuing to serve willingly, then he's continuing to do time through helping others. That's change and acceptance. It's up to you
@@ianriise6725 I loved their music when I was younger. Processed his incarceration like any normal human; he fucked up badly and RIGHTFULLY went away for it. Was skeptical when they announced the new album but gave it a shot anyways. I still love and listen to their music all the time, but I wouldn’t pay to see them because it would feel weird supporting Tim in that way.
Right, this has always torn me to bits but I think I finally found a way to put it.
I used to work with a guy who did 12 years for murder. It’s safe to say absolutely no one condoned what he did. But, he was a nice guy to talk to, a really hard worker and evidently did his time and turned himself around. Now, if I actively went out of my way to make his life difficult even after serving that time, would that be justified? I don’t think so. Everyone is free to make their own decisions, if you wanna look past what Tim did because he’s served his time and just wants to get his life in order, you are free to do so. If you wanna completely disassociate yourself from anything regarding the man, that is also perfectly fine. Whatever side of the coin you fall on, don’t attack the other one, there isn’t a right answer, just do what you think is right in your eyes.
I love how metalheads talk trash on Tim, but still listen to Burzum.
Yeah well, AILD and Burzum do NOT have the same fan base at all. Lol
@@krypticcoil9540 But more people have defended Varg than Tim, Varg’s fanbase is legit insane
@@mylerwilson4879 you said it best, “Varg’s fan base is insane.” Show me a decently sized group of SANE people defending Varg and then we can have a conversation. Until then I don’t think there’s really anything to talk about.
I’m torn because there are 4 other individuals/ families that rely on that band for an income but I also don’t want to support Tim at all.
I'm conflicted on this because I'm not who needs to forgive him... that's his personal life. For me, it does make it harder to be excited about their new music, or listening to what Tim has to say because it has this added layer of his reputation that I'm always thinking about. I really looked up to him as a vocalist and a person of faith within heavy music, and it's a bummer to see how he lost faith and was never up front about it. I'll still always love their mid-00s albums.
On the subject of whether or not we hold people in the entertainment industry to a lower standard, I'd be interesting to hear the viewpoint of anyone who can forgive Ian Watkins for what he did, especially as he doesn't even seem particularly remorseful.
“It all begins with forgiveness, because to heal the world, we first have to heal ourselves. And to heal the kids, we first have to heal the child within, each and every one of us.”
- Michael Jackson
I can't get my head around how the fans accepted him back to the community.
must be nice being so perfect
I'm definitely not perfect but I've never once tried to have someone murdered, so yeah, it is nice
AILD was one of my favorite bands. I did go and see them on their comeback tour but it just wasn’t the same vibe.
Exactly, that dark cloud will hang over Tim L. forever and we just can't ignore it, no matter how we try really
Without getting into the complexities of a broken "justice" system, I've been of the thought that he served his time and we should allow him to move on. Why bother with less than life prison sentences if we're not willing to let a person live their best life after being released? However, I do appreciate your closing questions. Very thought provoking (as always)!
I grew up in the San Diego metalcore scene. As I Lay Dying was my favorite band. I was in the Forever music video, went to all their shows, supported everything they said & did. When this terrible news came out I was & still am devastated. God maybe forgive Tim? But I cannot! If you take the religious aspect out, what he did was still wrong. If he was successful he would of single handedly been responsible for the death of his wife & alienating his his adopted children. I don't care if he did his time. We are still too easy at letting people off for such a crime. It discusses me that the band goes on & people still support this. I cannot wait for the down fall of As I Lay Dying. Stop giving Tim Lambesis a platform!
Its Not Giving This Guy A Platform , Its A Documentary ....On A Subject In Sure Most People Don't Know About Which Sorta Makes it insightful * But I Understand Your Sentiment .
*_Whatever your opinion of Tim is, no one did it better than As I Lay Dying._*
Heaven Shall Burn did
Great video. Wow to this story.
I would consider myself to be more of a casual listener of AILD, and I remember the day the article detailing his arrest came out I was incredibly confused. I loosely followed the story because I wanted to wait for as many facts to come out as possible so I didn't really revisit it until the sentencing and then I went back and looked at everything. What Tim did is awful plain and simple. However when the band, the people who would've been closest to him, outright forgave him and they reunited I forgave as well. However in the back of my mind I always wondered if it was for financial reasons as Wovenwar wasn't even scratching the surface of the success AILD had. However when Nick, Josh, and eventually Jordan left the band it would definitely suggest something wasn't right. What that is we outsiders are left wondering, but 60% of the band doesn't just up and quit when things are going well. It could be artistic direction, it could be Tim's past rearing it's ugly head, it could be finances I don't know nor am I going to pretend to know. I just hope if it were something serious one of those 3 guys who left would say something. Until then I sincerely hope that Tim is rehabilitated for the safety of those around him, and also to himself. He's clearly a talented creator and it would be a shame if he took this second chance and threw it away.
Love how people still have to constantly bring this up even tho the man literally did his prison sentence for it, and did everything he possibly could in his power to redeem himself and start over and show how he sincerely regrets ever doing it but jokes are made about him for it daily (like what more do you _honestly_ want from him lol). MEANWHILE Cardi B who openly took advantage of men and robbed them will *never* receive a single repercussion in her life and nobody talks about this, along with every sounecloud rapper ever who did equally as heinous things as Tim. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ not that i even really like AILD it's just funny how tenacious metalcore nerds are😂😂
@@Dimitris_Balf You wanna know how many Cardi B? None
Really admire you for never letting this go. Absolutely insane what people will tolerate because of rabid fanboyism.
It’s not just rabid fanboyism. I liked a couple songs, but wasn’t that into them. Personally, I just don’t give a sh¡t... he did… He TRIED to do something awful, got caught, went to prison, and even his wife/ex-wife ended up forgiving him. He did the crime, he did the time, the intended victim forgives him 🤷♂️
So, at this point, who gives a sh¡t? Different people think different ways about different things, so your particular opinion is just that, YOUR opinion, and it doesn’t make you “right“. Doesn’t make my opinion “right“ either, it’s all relative to how you think