What would you say that rest periods have on the amount of sets you need to do. I read somewhere that if you rest for a minute and do more sets it's the same as if you rest for 3 minutes but do less sets.
Would natural people benefit from doing these many sets per week? How much of these are attributed to noob gains? Would (natural) experienced lifters who have worked out for years see some gains if they now tripled their workload per muscle group?
@@dzonipro97 Generally, the longer you rest, the more potent each set becomes. So, since you likely take longer rests than 1-2 minutes as they do in these studies, some of these numbers from the science should be adjusted downwards.
I’m definitely interested to see this done on different muscle groups because my quads are super resilient but I swear just 4-5 hard sets of hamstrings per session barely leaves me recovered for my next session
I remember Dr. Mike saying hamstrings don’t recover as easily as other muscle groups. Don’t know the reason for this, but generally I’ve heard certain muscle groups referred to as “resistant to fatigue” and more adapted to recover.
@@chompushkabombushka3595 it's not that hamstrings don't recover as easily, it's that it's much easier to impose a very very high amount of stimulus (and also fatigue) compared to other muscle groups. Think about it, your quads do knee extension all day long, but your hams barely have to work in a normal day. A more extreme, but illustrative example, is with calves, you can do like 10 sets of calves in 5 minutes every workout and by the time you leave the gym they feel fine.
And I was doing 51 sets per week, like a slacker. Thanks for giving us pre-prints and other super solid evidence, for bro-science. Maybe, just hire a Sheiko style trainer and go to failure every day until rabdo or greatness hits.
Love the vid, going to apply this to my meso-cycles in the future. Only gripe: it's quad specific. Would love to hear about studies done on other muscle groups, particularly smaller muscles, since the recovery times vary, and the fatigue accumulation from set to set is vastly different between, let's say, quads to side delts or triceps. Look forward to the GOAT himself dropping a video on those studies if those studies are ever done.
Using Mike's hypertrophy template I, being a stickler to instructions, kept marking exercises as "1"mostly meaning +1 set the next time this body part gets worked out. This resulted in massive volumes at the end. I think 40+ or so sets for some body parts. Then Mike released a video on how limiting volume and re-sentisizing to lower volume is what makes people make huge gains and I followed his advice. My findings. Huge volume was not a game changer. I'd argue this time yielded poorer results than restarting and keeping volume within normal ranges (10-20 sets). Another thing is psychological strain. I love working out, really do. But most workouts in the crazy volume range would make me hate it and feel miserable. I'd also argue that going really close to failure (0-1 rir) and often beyond with myoreps etc is king.
I’m glad you clarified that this was specific to hypertrophy. I’ve been doing 10-15 working sets per week but I’m doing sets of 3-6 at about 90% of my estimated one rep max. That is enough to wear me out. The thought of increasing sets to 22, never mind higher, made my connective tissue ache. I’m also 52 so that doesn’t help.
@@Simon-talksYou'll love my 100k years generational gigacycle, every hundreth descendant will be chuffed to find they're on the deload life for maximum telomere-recovery and muscle-genome retention.
So much goes into these studies that it's so hard making them apply to everyone. Age,genetics,injuries,leisure time,stress,diet and enhancements are just some of the situations that could possibly be game changers.
hmmm, Would have to have to read the paper to see if hypertrophy was measured solely with measuring tape, or if muscle mass size was confirmed via DeXA. Good catch either way, but I think it's possible that if you were accumulating enough inflammation at those volumes to throw off measurements, you'd be far too sore to even get those sets done, heh.
@@DrMiloWolf @kierasher1 so does this kind of measuring exclude bigger size from 'bigger' inflammation (and what not)? My personal experience n=1 shows that after high volume cycles I significantly lose size in my deload-/sick_days-weeks afterward, while I still was getting stronger in my last meso-weeks and managed fatigue. I can also see diminishing size 2 weeks after lower volume cycles of same length, but these cycles already end up less swollen/size. Sadly, I can't compare loss of size since I'm pleb and not recording data, so all of this is only anecdotally, but I wonder if there is some merit. I really would like to see follow up size measurements after two weeks completely without training or at max some sort of maintenance/low deload.
Like Mike said, it tends to be the joints and connective tissue that end up with problems with the really high volumes over time. The muscle itself will grow and recover, but there's a tendency to run into problems for a lot of people. Learned this the hard way more than once unfortunately.
I love watching the videos. I have been training full body 5 to 6 days a week, 5 sets per muscle group each day for 20 years now. This is where I get my best results. I'm 45 and a natty I'm 6' tall. In 2002 I weighed 165 and now I weigh 200 lean. Firmly believe in the high volume.
I've done 24 sets/dropsets per muscle group doing full-body workouts 6 times a week when bulking for over 12 weeks. Pumps were amazing; doms barely felt, and energy was pretty good as well. But I was keeping the RPE of each set down to around 7. I don't know how high you can push the RPE doing more sets than that per muscle group on a full body workout split. When I'm doing a 6 day a week full body split pushing at an RPE of 9, I'm struggling to get 14 sets per muscle group. Looking forward to that study being conducted.
I’ve BEEN WAITING for this video, Christmas came early. As a higher volume enthusiast (zealot at times). The human body is frighteningly resilient but, as usual, nuance! Thanks Dr. Mike & (now) Dr. Wolf!
thats what I was kinda thinking about, unless your life is literally sleeping eating and going to the gym it would be impossible to maintain 52 sets a week per muscle@@yo25999
@@yo25999there is no study that proves it. We need to make people go for 52 sets of quads, hamstrings, biceps, triceps, delts, shoulders, lats. And then see how much muscle do they gain. I suspect the more the better and there is no upper limit.
Amazing interview, thank you @WolfCoaching and as always Dr Mike. Finally science catching up to bro science. Fun fact the guy with the biggest chest in the my gym (ex training partner) used to do 5 sets of flat bench every day (2 plates per side for 20 reps X 5) plus our regular chest workout. He would do 4 plates for 10 reps for 5 sets in our regular session for flat bench plus all the other exercises we would do, no sweat. When I tried to push him for more weight his elbows would start hurting so that was his limit. He had been doing that EVERYDAY since the day he was 14 years old. His chest was that big we could balance a can of coke on top it (big triceps as well). As I disclaimer he did have awesome genetics (half Samoan) and was enhanced but he would still destroy all the other enhanced guy in the gym in strength and chest size. I know its bro science but I had seen the evidence first hand and now it sounds like we have the studies to back it up. Thanks for all the amazing science and training tips as always Dr Mike, massive fan of the channel. Grateful for your work!!!
This makes sence, I have allways had so difficult making my calves growth, and I thought I did a tons, like 35 sets pr week but still did not see much growth. Then I went for 12 sets 5 times a week, basiclly trained calves on all my training days, so 60 sets, and it was the first time I could actually see they grew
The MRV BS was actually really good, Mike. I still consider that in my programs, and since people only have so much time, and stresses external to training, MRV is such a multidimensional consideration.
So glad that I found dr mikes channel I’ve been lifting and into health and fitness for years very experienced in the “chemistry and special supplements “ and yet have been dealing with major plateaus and even straight up losing muscle and gaining fat and before I start rambling I just want to say thank you for the wealth of knowledge in all of these free videos. I feel like I have learned more from dr Mike in the past few weeks that I have been fortunate enough to find and watch multiple videos than I have after years of working out and research etc. thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge and nothing but the upmost love and respect 🤜🏼🤛🏼💪🏼
I find for my best results is to train to fail , that last push should be all you got , of every set of every week , at 80 percent maximum load , once a month I go for a pb , to increase my load maximum, to stimulate that growth, some sets will be drop sets but those 15 kg dumbbells feel like 50 kg after 6 or 7 reps , less chance of injury also . Train hard Patient, consistent, and eat . Results follow .
German sport science has some papers that actually showed "more is more" in the late 80ies, early 90ies i believe. it was just stated that the amount of work gets more, the gains smaller, yet more volume = more growth.
@@LordFluffingtons slightly wondering xou re mixing strength/hypertrophy gains, no? squats - stretch induced hypertrophy, maybe didnt get stretch on the two others? i think genetics prolly play the biggest role in peak expression
It's important to repeat what he said about biceps and triceps: triceps benefit from more sets, while biceps do not. So it all depends on which muscle. And different muscles recover at different speeds.
This video hs made me realise that I can probably do way more and see some growth always kinda been in 4-8 set range for muscles (training HIT) gonna up it to 6-10 now and see what it brings but like the guys said I don’t know how you can do 15 sets of every muscle a week if you are actually training hard unless you are a recovery god
15 sets a week is not so much. If you train a muscle group 2x a week that's 2 exercises of 3-4 sets each. For example you do bench for 4 sets and dips for 3 sets, pretty standard intermediate->advanced stuff.
I average at 8-12 sets a week. I start off with 6 sets and ramp up to 12-15 sets over a 6 week meso (sets range depending on what muscle(s) are the focus). But EVERY set is to failure, and towards the end of the meso i also extend the last 1-2 sets (per exercise) with lengthen partials to push further into failure. Can confidently say i'm 8 years in and still getting stronger & Bigger.
same... 7 to 13 sets per week per muscle group and all of them to failure (0RIR in compounds and past failure with cheating after 0 RIR or mio reps for smaller muscles). Been growing optimaly for a while now, even a tiny bit while cutting. Oh, plus I deload every 3 or 4 weeks depending on if I'm on a Cut or a Bulk by doing only one set to failure for compounds and 1 set to failure and 2 with light weight nowhere near failure for smaller muscles... maybe I almost never ever deload side delts rear delts abs and calves though as it doesn't seem like it's needed... If I deload everything or just skip the gym for almost a week when I come back I haven't made any progress but I lift the same as the weel before the deload... so I prefer moving and staying active
So this begs the question as to changes, if any, to the hypertrophy app. Great discussion, that just reinforces the adage, train up to whatever you can recover from.
Went up to 38 sets per week (3 times /week training) for my chest and tris this summer (everything else maintainice except quads), people were commenting on my pecs every other week saying how large they are getting, turned them from my worst group to somewhere in the middle in around 3 months (6 w-deload - low volume -5w), periodization is amazing
Agreed. Periodization works wonders when well structured and organized. I follow a similar approach as you, but with less sets (12/w in the first meso, 8/w in the second and 4/w in the third as deload) for my legs. I saw so much growth that even my girlfriend noticed that my legs were getting bigger.
About to end my current full body program in 2 weeks and move to a specialized chest program. Could you let me know more about your exercise selection? My main question is did you increase volume by adding sets and focusing to a few main exercises or did you incorporate many more exercise variation to get that volume?
Mike has a video on it, but i'll tell you on what I did, this was week 2 or 3 so maybe u need to adjust the volume (work it down a bit then up) @@donventura2116 Monday: Push BB bench press 3 4-8 45 degree incline smith machine / chest machine press 2 medium/ high rep High to low flies 3 Shoulder Press 3 Triceps skull crushers 2 Tuesday: Pull (hoenestly just whatever so ur back doesnt lose size, max 8-10sets, its a light work day between two heavy ones) Wednesday: Leg (quad foucs) + Chest Squat (high bar hypertrophy style), woulda done hack sqauts if i had in my gym 3 Leg curls 3 Low incline smith machine chest press (or machine press) superset with medium flies 3+3 Leg extentions Calves Standing 3 Thursday: rest Friday: Upper body 15 degrees Dumbell press 3 Machine rows 2 Dips (or close grip bench) 2 Pullups 2 Low to high seated flies 3 bicep curls 2 (kept them that way) Tricep Extentions 2 Saturday: Legs (glues ham foucs) Sumo DL (powerlift style) 2 Belt squats 3 Dumbell RDLs 3 Hanging Leg raises 3 Abductors 2 (the one where u open ur legs) Seated Calve 3 (was ass for me, just do it on leg press) Sunday: rest In the second meso i got rid of BBchest pressing and sumo (all three lifts in the same weak with high vol really take a toll) , replaced them with flat DB pressing and Heavy RDLs respectively , also added some abs and upped the back volume a bit while taking a bit away from the chest The only thing I'd change in phase 1 is not doing the BB Bench press at the beginning cuz it damages the shoulders and tris more than u want, so maybe replace with something else, or do them as lightweight Hope that helps
@@alaaentabi7879 Damn you do that many exercises? Im 7 months and and I just do 5. It is BB bench, BB Squat pullup, Bicep curl, and Lat raise. I do that 3 days a week training to failure and i'm still making good progress in strength (for reps). Why do you need so many other exercise variations?
What's the minimum adaptive volume for hypertrophy of the phallus? I'm at 50 sessions per week and haven't noticed any growth. Do I need to up the sets or maybe start taking creatine?
I agree with the high volume. I kinda ignored what people said for years about this topic especially with the legs. During my hypertrophy training phases I always do a huge volume during the week to see change. The guys always look at me in the gym like I am crazy. I know my body and 2-3 days with 4 sets per exercise don’t cut it for me.
I'm trying to figure out how you guys are able to hammer your legs multiple times a week!? If I kill them on Monday I'm not walking the rest of the week 😭
@camerinj right!?!?.. I train til failure and beyond for real... zero chance I'm doing legs again for at least 4 days... 5-6 days before I hit legs again is my sweet spot... I feel like these guys are going nowhere close to actual failure
They're not likely going til failure, yet this is preserving their CNS, and so they can sustain a higher frequency of training without burnout. They're tearing muscle tissue, while you may perhaps be activating your CNS more from higher intensity training and then burning out. To a degree, volume and intensity are on opposing ends of the scale in parallel to muscle tissue and CNS repair.
Phew, I was really nervous when Dr. Mike talked to Pak, that someone had split him up from his boyfriend, but thankfully I can see Milo also visited Dr. Mike. No trouble in paradise. The guys are still in their relationship.
Long before Mike, Chad Waterbury was the neuro-physiological science guy who taught average joes on TNation how to train when/if bro spits were not working for them. I remember he said quads and forearms were notorious for responding to much higher training volume compared to other muscle groups. Scott Abel said something similar IIRC
Wow. Interesting. I recently committed to training my quads every day this month to see if I can make some gains. I'm a lifelong sufferer of chicken leg syndrome.
I've personally found the sweet spot of growth (for me) as 5 sets of 10 reps at 70% of my estimated 1RM after completing my top set of any given lift. If I attempt to do this more than once per training day, growth suffers - so I pick an exercise where I have a lagging body part.
Dr. Mike mentioned internal validity and selection criteria of the participants… I really appreciate this I can’t recall if demographics of population or size n was mentioned
I'm surprised, possibly even disappointed, that you guys are so quick to extrapolate these results to other muscle groups. Clearly some interesting findings for quads, but given the variation in each muscle groups MRV as previously thought, I'm sure we can't immediately assume these numbers apply to all muscle groups, and even if the previously thought MRV was equivalent, each muscle group may still have very variable end ranges that need testing. Also, this is just 1 study, albeit a very well designed study, but nothing can be guarateed or guideline changing on 1 study. Very interesting though, and I'll certainly experiment with higher volumes. Hopefully we get some more high quality research in the sports science field.
lol. i switched to high intensity training principles months ago. I was doing 25-30 sets and i thought i was doing much more sets than what fitness influencers and sports scientists advocate. Intensity is the driver of hypertrophy, not the number of how many times the weight goes up and down.
You should talk to Devon Larratt. He is the world champ arm wrestler. He trains 3x/day, basically all day long every day, but the interesting thing is, he only trains his right arm. He has some interesting perspectives on volume.
Anecdotal - when I was a new lifter I wanted huge pectoral muscles like Stimpy. I benched 6 sets per day to failure. 4 - 5 days a week for about a year. My 3 Rep max bench went from 185 to 335 in a year and I grew some pretty good boobs starting at a point you could see my ribs through my chest. I've mentioned this in comment sections here and there and every time poop faces jump up to say I'm full of shit. After watching this video it seems I was on to something and should have just rotated the approach to all body parts.
honestly if it wasnt for joint, tendons pain i'd do extremely high volume. i use too when I was young and damn the gains were glorious. these people that call u FoS simply have never been athletes and discovered gym later in life as their first and only physical activity outside of wrist flexion
@@Nunak91 it was 12,10,8,6,3-5,3-5 increasing weight each set of course. My diet was shit the entire time with no supplements. I was 33 years old that year.
I love that we're living in a time where we're finally getting some interesting new results again. Great time to be training. It's such a difference compared to 10 years ago. I mean it wasn't all terrible back then but there's just so much more data now. I remember I focused more on technique and the Squeeze from a concentric movement cuz that's what they were saying. While now the stretched position is more important to focus on.
You don't focus on the stretch, if your in a stretch position your stretched, the weight does the work for you. No amount of brain power is going to stretch the muscle more, gravity does that for you. You still need to focus and squeeze at the top of reps, you can use alot more force with a squeeze at the top then simply just getting it up, unless you only train with your 1rep max Wieght, otherwise keep focusing on the top.
@@silverhost9782 I think we are using the word focus differently. It's important, to do physically, not mentally. So yeah, you focus on it as in 100% of your reps should go to a stretch you can tolerate and or as far as possible. You NEVER skip out on the stretched position, I agree with on on that. I'm arguing the mental aspect about thinking about the stretch having any additional impact like the way you can litterly contract more when you mentally focus on that squeeze at the top.
We made fun of top level bodybuilders, who wouldn’t extend their arms all the way on bench press (it’s all just genetics and roids, right?), now we find out that working in the 2/3 range of stretched position is the most optimal. We made fun Rich Piana’s 8 hours arm workout, now we find out he’s right? He also did “feeder” sets throughout the day. Reminds me of the midwit meme, with us science-based nerds being the midwits, while bodybuilders and gym bros are the geniuses.
@@aboveaura4817 each muscle group. I was doing full body 3 x week. Took about 1 hour 30 min per workout. I would superset different muscles to save time
thank you for this wonderful information, I have always been afraid to lose strength by cutting back volume on other body parts but this makes training fun again!
I think it also speaks to what you say about not training a muscle hard when it's already roasted. Certain muscle groups can take the volume better. Thoughts?
Phil Hernon a legend and great trainer advised 8 - 10 sets a bp a week. All you high volume people are ao misguided unless you are on massive amoints of PEDS
Been doing 30ish sets of calves a week (single leg slant board calf raises full ROM) yeah they grew. Should go up to 50 and see what's up. I actually did it to fix calf injuries (it worked).
My calves also grew back in 2021 when i did Nucleus Overload on them for 30 days. 5 sets per day to failure (it was usually between 40-60 reps) every day.
max effort upper: 1rm -> 3x5/5x3 @ 80% backdown bench variation 4x8 pec isolation 4x12+ tricep isolation 3x8 tricep isolation 3x12+ 3 bicep exercises 6 sets of side delts 3 sets of rotator cuff work dynamic effort lower, but not dynamic, just volume day: 4x8 or 5x5 bench w/ various grips 4x8 bench variation 4x12+ pec isolation 3x10+ tricep isolation 2x12+ tricep isolation 3 bicep exercises 6 sets of side delts 3 sets of rotator cuff work ME lower: SQ or DL 1rm -> 3x5/5x3 @ 80% SQ or DL variation (sq on dl day and vice versa) 3x5 Belt Squat 4x10 RDL 3x10 ATG Split Squat 2x AMRAP Hip Flexor Raise: 2xAMRAP DE lower/volume lower: SQ & DL: 3x8 & 3x8 - sometimes I'll swap to 12x2 / 12 x1, etc. Leg Press: 4x10 Leg Ext. 4x15 GHR: 3x10 Leg Curl: 3x15 Hip Flexor Raises: 2x AMRAP Accessory day 1: 4 back exercises, 2 rows, 2 pulls calves tib raises + rotations 3 ab exercises Shrugs 2 neck exercises abductors/adductors forearms total about like 10-16 exercises Accessory day 2: Same as day 1 but with different exercises for the same muscle groups. I split it into 8 days. Lower-Acc-Upper-Rest(optional day, but I train for 1-2 hours on this day too, but not with weights)-Lower-Acc-Upper-Rest(same deal) and then it's lower again. So no days off. My strength days take 1.5-2.5 hours because I take my time during sets, but I also superset a lot, still I have the time, so I take 3-5 minutes between most sets. I sometimes jump rope inbetween sets and always before and after. Typically I'm in there for 3 to 5 hours. I'll do 1-2 hours of jump roping after my workout or kickboxing, etc. Plus I jump rope in my living room throughout the day and I have a heavybag + double end bag in my living room so I hit that ocnstantly, too. Basically I average 3-5 hours of working out every day, but perhaps 1-2 of those hours can be counted as rest as well. I think this is pretty decent volume. I've dropped 40 kg in 1.5 years and now I'm at 96 kg / 193 cm tall with veins that are visible in my face, biceps, quads, calves, 4pack (6 pack is delayed cuz of fat around my lower abs and love handles, plus I have a tiny bit on the side of my chest). Otherwise I'm definitely below 15% bodyfat and overall getting to a shredded state, but not anything crazy. I've done this routine for 1.5 years on a cut and I've always recovered. I just do progressive overload and if I can't progress I switch the exercise. My deadlift went from 130 kg starting point to 235 kg in 1 year. Bench 110 kg. Bench is hard af to progress on during a cut, well I've only trained during a cut, but it's obvious to me because eveyrthing else blooms compared to that shit. But it's because I need to get my pecs up to par with my very developed triceps. I've trained in the past, also during cuts, never bulked. Got fat twice, lost 40 kg twice. I built quite a lot of muscle during that time and I do look jacked and have 43 cm arms with veins all over for example. I HAVE been overtrained during this time, I really have. It was so bad that I couldn't put my shoes on after my workout basically, I just sat there for 15 minutes trying to gather the energy to put my fucking shoes on. I've passed out from deadlifting 60 kg as my first rep... but that was dehydration as well. The ONLY reason for this was that I had missed sleep and hadn't hit my protein. So in fact, it's underrecovered, not overtrained. And this was BEFORE I started to jump rope for 1-3 hours a day. I was just doing 2 hours of strength every day. Suddenly my sessions started taking 2 hours longe,r up to 4 hours for the same work. Because I had messed up my protein and sleep. One day of bad sleep = I could crash. So it was a very fine line and still is. Havne't had an issue in a big while and that only happened once, then I got my shit together. I learned to use elctrolytes and salt, that helped a shit ton with dizziness. Anyway, the amount of volume I do as listed above, is very doable and that's me eating 2000 kcal a day as a 96 kg man who trains 3-5 hours a day on a nearly 2 year long cut. If I were to eat 4000 kcal, holy fuck I could do so much more. Also, my intensity is high, do not doubt that. I can be doing freaking 9 seconds grinders on my ME lifts. I don't give a flying shit, haha. I'll run myself into the ground, I just don't care. Just have to sleep 7+ hours (I often sleep 12 after really heavy sessions) and never ever not get 180g+ protien. Forgot to mention I also walk 10 km every day to the gym and never drive anywhere... So that's about 7k steps from just that and I always get above 10k steps. It's just really crazy to me to see how little people train. 3 sets of bench with 0 intensity, then a few sets of DB shit, then a couple ets of pec flies, 3 sets of tricep pushdowns and go home. Leaving an insane amount in the tank. I look bigger than 99% I've seen in the gym and I've never trained for more than 1.5 years straight and always in a cut. I see people who've lifted for 15 years consitently and can't do 140 kg bench or 220 kg deadlift. 220 kg deadlift took me 6 months... 140 kg squat took me 3 months and 110 kg bench took me 1 year.
I'd love to know the quality of these sets. Was it 3 sec controlled exentric with pause at the bottom, or just throwing weight around. Makes a huge difference in intensity. Lets say 5sec for a rep with good control and form - would take 1 minute to do 1 set of 12 Vesus 2sec reps which would take 24 seconds to complete and would cause way less fatigue.
If you notice each excercise had one set taken to absolute failure. There is your growth stimulus right there. They should have also had a group train to where all sets were taken to 1 or 2 reps in reserve and none to failure. That would be a better study
What I get from this is that I can probably crank up the volume on low fatigue body parts like calves with little to no detrimental effects but way more gains. Gonna double calf volume just to check it out.
It would be nice to compare Volume an high intensity...If you leave Reps in Reserve you can do more If you train more intensly you need less.. both can Produce Worldclass Results .....Look at Dorian Yates and Arnold ..
Mike, on this topic, a great interview for you might be any of the elite arm wrestlers many of whom train with absolute spooky volume and intensity. It's an odd sport. We know in sprinting that running marathons would kill one's speed; but, an arm wrestling match is guess work: If one's power can't overwhelm an opponent with a fast pin, endurance comes into play. You've likely seen some of the match and training videos. Canadian Devon Larratt would be an example of a high volume guy spending literally hours on the table, then more time doing specific exercises with bands/pulleys/ weights in training. Anyway, it ties back a bit to this 52 set conversation.
I have a really hard time growing my pecs. The thing problem is that a 6 sets of pecs get me so sore, that I need at least 2-3 days until that soreness subsides. The question I have is: Did the participants train even when still sore and still had amazing growth? Should I just train my pecs every two days for 10 sets, and ignore soreness? This really confuses me.
You shouldn’t randomly start doing volumes bc it sounds good, you should be doing what you actually need to grow. Start with two days of chest work. Two exercises each. Two sets for each exercise. Strive to add reps and weight. If you feel fine and things are progressing then add another 1 set to each exercise. After that, add a third movement to one day for two sets. Then a third movement for two sets. Then 3 sets, etc. I’d be very surprised if you needed more than about 12 sets of chest work a week to actually grow, assuming you’re actually training hard and improving your performance. People over focus on volume.
If you’re truly pushing hard and not recovering maybe that is your mrv for chest, personally my chest and my hamstrings are super responsive to training and don’t take much to beat up but my delts and my quads can handle more than double the volume and recover on time for my next session.
Thank you for having me, Mike! Happy to answer any questions in response to my comment 👇
So, did you get your PhD? How was your defense??? 🎉
What would you say that rest periods have on the amount of sets you need to do. I read somewhere that if you rest for a minute and do more sets it's the same as if you rest for 3 minutes but do less sets.
Would natural people benefit from doing these many sets per week? How much of these are attributed to noob gains? Would (natural) experienced lifters who have worked out for years see some gains if they now tripled their workload per muscle group?
I passed my defense! Now officially Dr. Milo Wolf! @@n_-_-
@@dzonipro97 Generally, the longer you rest, the more potent each set becomes. So, since you likely take longer rests than 1-2 minutes as they do in these studies, some of these numbers from the science should be adjusted downwards.
I was doing 53, so good to know that more volume isn’t always the answer.
Wow Mike mentzer got it right again! 🤓
@@wotanjugend974lmao nice one
@@wotanjugend974insert the mandatory: MIKE IS THE SMARTEST BODY BUILDER OF ALL TIME, HE WAS SO AHEAD OF HIS TIME. THE GOAT
haha, that is a ton.must love gym work
u mean 531
I've been doing 52 sets/week of high-tempo 0-lb hammer curls and it definitely helped my right forearm to blow up!
Beautiful :))
I hope you're doing full ROM
@@soulextinguisherjust isolating the end range of motion can feel good, I mean work effectively
dont forget to make the last set an AMRAP set so you the 0-lb dumbbell feels good
@@StopTheDamnTape Agreed. Shortened partials aren't usually recommended, but in this case, they can really help you to get a great pump.
I’m combining this approach with the one from your video a few days ago. I now do 1 set and 52 sets on alternate weeks.
Is that a joke?
@@miquelcm5136 Yeah, it’s a joke. I don’t go to either extreme.
@@miquelcm5136no
@@miquelcm5136Yes it is (:
Nice
I’m definitely interested to see this done on different muscle groups because my quads are super resilient but I swear just 4-5 hard sets of hamstrings per session barely leaves me recovered for my next session
I remember Dr. Mike saying hamstrings don’t recover as easily as other muscle groups. Don’t know the reason for this, but generally I’ve heard certain muscle groups referred to as “resistant to fatigue” and more adapted to recover.
He said quads triceps forearms tend to repair and respond to higher loads
@@chompushkabombushka3595 it's not that hamstrings don't recover as easily, it's that it's much easier to impose a very very high amount of stimulus (and also fatigue) compared to other muscle groups.
Think about it, your quads do knee extension all day long, but your hams barely have to work in a normal day.
A more extreme, but illustrative example, is with calves, you can do like 10 sets of calves in 5 minutes every workout and by the time you leave the gym they feel fine.
Reeent
@@karinorbu6981 😂
These expert interviews are a friggin' gold mine. I simply cannot thank you guys enough.
And I was doing 51 sets per week, like a slacker. Thanks for giving us pre-prints and other super solid evidence, for bro-science. Maybe, just hire a Sheiko style trainer and go to failure every day until rabdo or greatness hits.
51 sets gives 0% gain, 52 gives 100%. Now we know.
Literally doing sheiko lol and the volume is unreal.
@@espenstoro now we know
Get big or get rhabdo tryin'
@@ertwrowe know
Love the vid, going to apply this to my meso-cycles in the future. Only gripe: it's quad specific. Would love to hear about studies done on other muscle groups, particularly smaller muscles, since the recovery times vary, and the fatigue accumulation from set to set is vastly different between, let's say, quads to side delts or triceps. Look forward to the GOAT himself dropping a video on those studies if those studies are ever done.
I was on 52 sets per week for my quads, my legs turned into a ball of plasma and neighbours called firemen on me. So I had to drop the volume.
😊😊😂😂😂😂😂😂
Easily one of RP's best videos I've seen. I love almost all of them - but this was epic. Thanks!
The fact that we get this kind of 1 on 1 interviews it's mind blowing, thank you so much for this videos! Much love and respect!
😂, shut up. It's not like he's solving the hamas gaza conflict
What's mind blowing about 2 men having a conversation about fitness, I garutee millions of men do this everyday.
I'm also curious about the degree to which this blew your mind.
Using Mike's hypertrophy template I, being a stickler to instructions, kept marking exercises as "1"mostly meaning +1 set the next time this body part gets worked out. This resulted in massive volumes at the end. I think 40+ or so sets for some body parts.
Then Mike released a video on how limiting volume and re-sentisizing to lower volume is what makes people make huge gains and I followed his advice.
My findings. Huge volume was not a game changer. I'd argue this time yielded poorer results than restarting and keeping volume within normal ranges (10-20 sets).
Another thing is psychological strain. I love working out, really do. But most workouts in the crazy volume range would make me hate it and feel miserable.
I'd also argue that going really close to failure (0-1 rir) and often beyond with myoreps etc is king.
So the menzr approach lol
You just ended up following the original mentzer approach at the end.
Wrong Mike at the end.
500 sets a week you train 8 hours a day eat and sleep wake up and repeat
8 hour arm workout god damn it!!
@@salt_factory7566 Just eat more
@@GojimarugoooooOOOOOOOD MORNING GODDAMNIT!!
@@Gojimaru I'll run out of videos at that rate
50,000 calories and 1000 sets, exponential growth 😤
I’m glad you clarified that this was specific to hypertrophy. I’ve been doing 10-15 working sets per week but I’m doing sets of 3-6 at about 90% of my estimated one rep max. That is enough to wear me out. The thought of increasing sets to 22, never mind higher, made my connective tissue ache. I’m also 52 so that doesn’t help.
This is for maximal growth from what I understand; I am 53 and do 2 sets per bodypart/3 times a week and have results.
3-6 would be 90% of your 2 rep max not 1 rep max since your 2 rep max is generally 90% of your 1 rep max
8 HOUR ARM WORKOUT, RIGHT BABE?
Zeeeero
Goood fucking morning
@@seta_samuli2759 I never thought of it that way , i never thought of it that way :D
C'mon guys, you gotta eat big to get big! Cookies don't even count!
@@seta_samuli2759goddammit
Thank you Dr.Mike, the fitness world is lacking these straightforward educational videos, learned a lot watching this
2034 Papers: “we’re gonna need a minimum of 172 sets for growth”
Well if everyone does 52 sets eventually we will evolve to handle more. So maybe
@@martymcfly6411 I'm now thinking a minimum of 427 sets...
@@martymcfly6411it would take a thousand years or more for the human anatomy to evolve like that
@@martymcfly6411with this logic we reach for the highest shelf so our kids are taller too!
@@Simon-talksYou'll love my 100k years generational gigacycle, every hundreth descendant will be chuffed to find they're on the deload life for maximum telomere-recovery and muscle-genome retention.
So much goes into these studies that it's so hard making them apply to everyone. Age,genetics,injuries,leisure time,stress,diet and enhancements are just some of the situations that could possibly be game changers.
i dont trust anyone with a beard, or any hair for that matter. i only take advice from smooth hairless men, they are pure and trustworthy like a baby
I'm offended.
And with height of 5'5/5'6
F those tall, muscular, intimidating monsters! Baby face, short kings all the way baby! 😊
@@devamjani9423 It's a nice sentment but wont get you laid a lot with the e-Thots
I am baldfended
Hypertrophy or Inflammation? How much "tissue" was kept a few weeks after the study would be nice to know.
hmmm, Would have to have to read the paper to see if hypertrophy was measured solely with measuring tape, or if muscle mass size was confirmed via DeXA. Good catch either way, but I think it's possible that if you were accumulating enough inflammation at those volumes to throw off measurements, you'd be far too sore to even get those sets done, heh.
@@kierasher1 Dexa wouldn't be very accurate. Should use the gold standard; MRI.
Very few studies just use a measuring tape. They used ultrasound, here IIRC
@@DrMiloWolfbless you for this comment, it provides a lot of insight for something new to this type of literature
@@DrMiloWolf @kierasher1
so does this kind of measuring exclude bigger size from 'bigger' inflammation (and what not)? My personal experience n=1 shows that after high volume cycles I significantly lose size in my deload-/sick_days-weeks afterward, while I still was getting stronger in my last meso-weeks and managed fatigue.
I can also see diminishing size 2 weeks after lower volume cycles of same length, but these cycles already end up less swollen/size. Sadly, I can't compare loss of size since I'm pleb and not recording data, so all of this is only anecdotally, but I wonder if there is some merit.
I really would like to see follow up size measurements after two weeks completely without training or at max some sort of maintenance/low deload.
I hope you guys took Milo through a training session on video.
PS: Fantastic video.
52 sets
@@DiskoKDiskoL he already did it. But that would be funny
Like Mike said, it tends to be the joints and connective tissue that end up with problems with the really high volumes over time. The muscle itself will grow and recover, but there's a tendency to run into problems for a lot of people. Learned this the hard way more than once unfortunately.
Aren't heavy weights worse for joints?
@@Journeyman237yes however 52 sets a week isn’t amazing for your joints…
@@kennyoffhenny either extreme is unfavourable, surprise :D
I always appreciate how much I learn when watching the conversations between these two, even when Dr. Mike ruins cookies for me. Thanks again!
😂
I love watching the videos. I have been training full body 5 to 6 days a week, 5 sets per muscle group each day for 20 years now. This is where I get my best results. I'm 45 and a natty I'm 6' tall. In 2002 I weighed 165 and now I weigh 200 lean. Firmly believe in the high volume.
Interesting, how long do you workouts take and do you do all the isolation movements or stick to compounds?
@@geminierica4077 mostly compounds are the heaviest but then drop sets and change exercises
Can't wait to watch this with fullrom
I've done 24 sets/dropsets per muscle group doing full-body workouts 6 times a week when bulking for over 12 weeks. Pumps were amazing; doms barely felt, and energy was pretty good as well. But I was keeping the RPE of each set down to around 7. I don't know how high you can push the RPE doing more sets than that per muscle group on a full body workout split. When I'm doing a 6 day a week full body split pushing at an RPE of 9, I'm struggling to get 14 sets per muscle group. Looking forward to that study being conducted.
you are a moron wasting time in the gym
Did you mean 24 sets per session of the 6x per week training session . That would be 144 sets per week ; correct me if I’m wrong
Or did you mean you was doing 4sets per session but all sets were dropsets and within a week they totalled 24 sets (6x4)
Yeah 24 sets per week, not per workout... that would be insane lol
@@amhawk8742 makes sense and yeah fair enough I just wanted to double check 😂
Great video! I would like to see a similar study using down sets and/or drop-sets.
thats what i do 52 sets but drop sets
I’ve BEEN WAITING for this video, Christmas came early. As a higher volume enthusiast (zealot at times). The human body is frighteningly resilient but, as usual, nuance! Thanks Dr. Mike & (now) Dr. Wolf!
there is a way to do this its through drop sets
I’m all about 52 sets a year
Mentzer style babyyyy 😎
@@vyperr47 Aka wasting your time and looking like shit despite years passing.
😂
1 pushup every week
@@vyperr47Quite funny that it actually is like that 💀
Hope to see a study that includes the whole body instead of just one muscle group shortly! Exciting results nonetheless.
They kinda talked about it in this video. You would crash and burn so fast.
thats what I was kinda thinking about, unless your life is literally sleeping eating and going to the gym it would be impossible to maintain 52 sets a week per muscle@@yo25999
Exactly.
That’s why this study is crap.
I mean its not crap. Its cool to see that you can really push the amount of sets if you wanted to when dropping your other volumes. @@Contopaxi
@@yo25999there is no study that proves it. We need to make people go for 52 sets of quads, hamstrings, biceps, triceps, delts, shoulders, lats. And then see how much muscle do they gain. I suspect the more the better and there is no upper limit.
10 to 15 is more than enough for me personally.
for most people prabobly. 52 setts per week is like 3 hours a gym every day. Joe Shmoe has no time for that.
Usually that's how real life plays out.
@@Just2Ddude...or is on enough PEDs
Post physique and let’s see how it’s working
@@cdula26 I'm not gonna encourage your masturbatory habits.
Amazing interview, thank you @WolfCoaching and as always Dr Mike. Finally science catching up to bro science. Fun fact the guy with the biggest chest in the my gym (ex training partner) used to do 5 sets of flat bench every day (2 plates per side for 20 reps X 5) plus our regular chest workout. He would do 4 plates for 10 reps for 5 sets in our regular session for flat bench plus all the other exercises we would do, no sweat. When I tried to push him for more weight his elbows would start hurting so that was his limit.
He had been doing that EVERYDAY since the day he was 14 years old. His chest was that big we could balance a can of coke on top it (big triceps as well). As I disclaimer he did have awesome genetics (half Samoan) and was enhanced but he would still destroy all the other enhanced guy in the gym in strength and chest size. I know its bro science but I had seen the evidence first hand and now it sounds like we have the studies to back it up.
Thanks for all the amazing science and training tips as always Dr Mike, massive fan of the channel.
Grateful for your work!!!
Thank you guys so much for this video. I’ve been struggling for a long time with a couple lagging body parts and i think this may help
This makes sence, I have allways had so difficult making my calves growth, and I thought I did a tons, like 35 sets pr week but still did not see much growth. Then I went for 12 sets 5 times a week, basiclly trained calves on all my training days, so 60 sets, and it was the first time I could actually see they grew
Mike mentzer if he saw this 💀
That’s literally how he looks now blud he’s dead
The MRV BS was actually really good, Mike. I still consider that in my programs, and since people only have so much time, and stresses external to training, MRV is such a multidimensional consideration.
So glad that I found dr mikes channel I’ve been lifting and into health and fitness for years very experienced in the “chemistry and special supplements “ and yet have been dealing with major plateaus and even straight up losing muscle and gaining fat and before I start rambling I just want to say thank you for the wealth of knowledge in all of these free videos. I feel like I have learned more from dr Mike in the past few weeks that I have been fortunate enough to find and watch multiple videos than I have after years of working out and research etc. thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge and nothing but the upmost love and respect 🤜🏼🤛🏼💪🏼
I find for my best results is to train to fail , that last push should be all you got , of every set of every week , at 80 percent maximum load , once a month I go for a pb , to increase my load maximum, to stimulate that growth, some sets will be drop sets but those 15 kg dumbbells feel like 50 kg after 6 or 7 reps , less chance of injury also .
Train hard
Patient, consistent, and eat . Results follow .
Going from 22 sets to 52 sets is insane. Tell me on top of that they also added reps and weight.
Train Regularly Every Night
@@JoshuaKevinPerry Anavar give up!
This would be like a real part time job.
@@EyesackWorleyjust tren hard!
@@aajohnsoutube*train
Very interesting. Mike is exceptional at asking the right questions.
Other than not asking him to link the study, so we can all make assessments instead of counting on others to promote it as they see fit.
At 50 I discovered the Mike Metzler way a few months back. I feel better and have gotten stronger.
German sport science has some papers that actually showed "more is more" in the late 80ies, early 90ies i believe. it was just stated that the amount of work gets more, the gains smaller, yet more volume = more growth.
@@LordFluffingtons slightly wondering xou re mixing strength/hypertrophy gains, no? squats - stretch induced hypertrophy, maybe didnt get stretch on the two others? i think genetics prolly play the biggest role in peak expression
It's important to repeat what he said about biceps and triceps: triceps benefit from more sets, while biceps do not. So it all depends on which muscle. And different muscles recover at different speeds.
how do we know this and where can i find more about this
@@celine4743just try it. Do high volume for biceps and triceps and see how much strength gained you make relative to the other muscle group
Exactly what I notices most
This video hs made me realise that I can probably do way more and see some growth always kinda been in 4-8 set range for muscles (training HIT) gonna up it to 6-10 now and see what it brings but like the guys said I don’t know how you can do 15 sets of every muscle a week if you are actually training hard unless you are a recovery god
I do 15-20 sets for most muscles every 5 days. Biceps, triceps, calves, traps I do 6-12 sets
15 sets a week is not so much. If you train a muscle group 2x a week that's 2 exercises of 3-4 sets each. For example you do bench for 4 sets and dips for 3 sets, pretty standard intermediate->advanced stuff.
You might be lucky with a low volume cap on your growth, but most people can do 20+ sets at the end of a meso cycle for at least some muscles
Wouldn't you want to read the actual study before assuming what you are doing needs to be adjusted?
@@davebarry4647 trial and error on myself is better than reading study’s 👍
I average at 8-12 sets a week. I start off with 6 sets and ramp up to 12-15 sets over a 6 week meso (sets range depending on what muscle(s) are the focus).
But EVERY set is to failure, and towards the end of the meso i also extend the last 1-2 sets (per exercise) with lengthen partials to push further into failure.
Can confidently say i'm 8 years in and still getting stronger & Bigger.
same... 7 to 13 sets per week per muscle group and all of them to failure (0RIR in compounds and past failure with cheating after 0 RIR or mio reps for smaller muscles). Been growing optimaly for a while now, even a tiny bit while cutting. Oh, plus I deload every 3 or 4 weeks depending on if I'm on a Cut or a Bulk by doing only one set to failure for compounds and 1 set to failure and 2 with light weight nowhere near failure for smaller muscles... maybe I almost never ever deload side delts rear delts abs and calves though as it doesn't seem like it's needed... If I deload everything or just skip the gym for almost a week when I come back I haven't made any progress but I lift the same as the weel before the deload... so I prefer moving and staying active
Mike's way of making jokes without laughing, yet keeping the conversation going, always gets me. XD
Ok so I think I got it. Quit my job, work out every day for 4 hours, eat, sleep, repeat. Sounds good to me, I've been waiting for a reason.
Congratulations 🎉 young Dr.! Welcome to the club! 😊
im not convinced 52 is enough thank you very much, ill be sticking to me 104 sets per muscle per week, cant fool me !!!!!!
😂😂😂
This low volume vs high volume debate can be ended with simply saying "do what works for you."
Just that simple.
Everyone talks about muscle recovery.
No one talking about central nervous system recovery 😖
Dorian Mike and Arthur has been my route of choice
Always great to see Milo Wolf on the channel
I do around 120 Sets Total for my whole body a week so 52 on a single muscle group is crazy
It's a lot, but like they say you might have to drop the volume training other muscles to train that much
So this begs the question as to changes, if any, to the hypertrophy app. Great discussion, that just reinforces the adage, train up to whatever you can recover from.
Went up to 38 sets per week (3 times /week training) for my chest and tris this summer (everything else maintainice except quads), people were commenting on my pecs every other week saying how large they are getting, turned them from my worst group to somewhere in the middle in around 3 months (6 w-deload - low volume -5w), periodization is amazing
Agreed. Periodization works wonders when well structured and organized. I follow a similar approach as you, but with less sets (12/w in the first meso, 8/w in the second and 4/w in the third as deload) for my legs. I saw so much growth that even my girlfriend noticed that my legs were getting bigger.
About to end my current full body program in 2 weeks and move to a specialized chest program. Could you let me know more about your exercise selection? My main question is did you increase volume by adding sets and focusing to a few main exercises or did you incorporate many more exercise variation to get that volume?
Mike has a video on it, but i'll tell you on what I did, this was week 2 or 3 so maybe u need to adjust the volume (work it down a bit then up)
@@donventura2116
Monday: Push
BB bench press 3 4-8
45 degree incline smith machine / chest machine press 2 medium/ high rep
High to low flies 3
Shoulder Press 3
Triceps skull crushers 2
Tuesday: Pull
(hoenestly just whatever so ur back doesnt lose size, max 8-10sets, its a light work day between two heavy ones)
Wednesday: Leg (quad foucs) + Chest
Squat (high bar hypertrophy style), woulda done hack sqauts if i had in my gym 3
Leg curls 3
Low incline smith machine chest press (or machine press) superset with medium flies 3+3
Leg extentions
Calves Standing 3
Thursday: rest
Friday: Upper body
15 degrees Dumbell press 3
Machine rows 2
Dips (or close grip bench) 2
Pullups 2
Low to high seated flies 3
bicep curls 2 (kept them that way)
Tricep Extentions 2
Saturday: Legs (glues ham foucs)
Sumo DL (powerlift style) 2
Belt squats 3
Dumbell RDLs 3
Hanging Leg raises 3
Abductors 2 (the one where u open ur legs)
Seated Calve 3 (was ass for me, just do it on leg press)
Sunday: rest
In the second meso i got rid of BBchest pressing and sumo (all three lifts in the same weak with high vol really take a toll) , replaced them with flat DB pressing and Heavy RDLs respectively , also added some abs and upped the back volume a bit while taking a bit away from the chest
The only thing I'd change in phase 1 is not doing the BB Bench press at the beginning cuz it damages the shoulders and tris more than u want, so maybe replace with something else, or do them as lightweight
Hope that helps
''People were commenting on my pecs saying how large they are getting''
Just say men bro
@@alaaentabi7879 Damn you do that many exercises? Im 7 months and and I just do 5. It is BB bench, BB Squat pullup, Bicep curl, and Lat raise. I do that 3 days a week training to failure and i'm still making good progress in strength (for reps). Why do you need so many other exercise variations?
This channel is PURE VALUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What's the minimum adaptive volume for hypertrophy of the phallus? I'm at 50 sessions per week and haven't noticed any growth. Do I need to up the sets or maybe start taking creatine?
I would lower the sets, i don't believe in all this bullshit
@@Kamil_Srnka Wooosh
That's the shit I'm here for. Science. I like the training reaction videos but I love learning more!
I agree with the high volume. I kinda ignored what people said for years about this topic especially with the legs. During my hypertrophy training phases I always do a huge volume during the week to see change. The guys always look at me in the gym like I am crazy. I know my body and 2-3 days with 4 sets per exercise don’t cut it for me.
I'm trying to figure out how you guys are able to hammer your legs multiple times a week!? If I kill them on Monday I'm not walking the rest of the week 😭
@camerinj right!?!?.. I train til failure and beyond for real... zero chance I'm doing legs again for at least 4 days... 5-6 days before I hit legs again is my sweet spot... I feel like these guys are going nowhere close to actual failure
They're not likely going til failure, yet this is preserving their CNS, and so they can sustain a higher frequency of training without burnout. They're tearing muscle tissue, while you may perhaps be activating your CNS more from higher intensity training and then burning out. To a degree, volume and intensity are on opposing ends of the scale in parallel to muscle tissue and CNS repair.
Phew, I was really nervous when Dr. Mike talked to Pak, that someone had split him up from his boyfriend, but thankfully I can see Milo also visited Dr. Mike. No trouble in paradise. The guys are still in their relationship.
Long before Mike, Chad Waterbury was the neuro-physiological science guy who taught average joes on TNation how to train when/if bro spits were not working for them. I remember he said quads and forearms were notorious for responding to much higher training volume compared to other muscle groups. Scott Abel said something similar IIRC
I'm pretty sure a lot of the influencers and gurus on YT are the final forms of former TNation posters (or contributors) btw.
Wow. Interesting. I recently committed to training my quads every day this month to see if I can make some gains. I'm a lifelong sufferer of chicken leg syndrome.
More amazing content. The amount of information covered was beyond impressive!
I've personally found the sweet spot of growth (for me) as 5 sets of 10 reps at 70% of my estimated 1RM after completing my top set of any given lift. If I attempt to do this more than once per training day, growth suffers - so I pick an exercise where I have a lagging body part.
boring but big?
This acually helped me out, understanding some of the problems and results im running into
I’ve learned to remain cautious with studies like this.
Seems like almost every day one study contradicts another.
I love these giga gym bros with their PhD's. Nerds+Athletes COMBINED AAAAAAH
I would really like to see the physical appearance of these test subjects!
Dr. Mike mentioned internal validity and selection criteria of the participants… I really appreciate this I can’t recall if demographics of population or size n was mentioned
I did 11 sets for quads today, next time i'll do 93 to catch up then drop back to 52
I'm surprised, possibly even disappointed, that you guys are so quick to extrapolate these results to other muscle groups. Clearly some interesting findings for quads, but given the variation in each muscle groups MRV as previously thought, I'm sure we can't immediately assume these numbers apply to all muscle groups, and even if the previously thought MRV was equivalent, each muscle group may still have very variable end ranges that need testing. Also, this is just 1 study, albeit a very well designed study, but nothing can be guarateed or guideline changing on 1 study. Very interesting though, and I'll certainly experiment with higher volumes. Hopefully we get some more high quality research in the sports science field.
Well said. I'm sure we'll have a counter-study and accompanying video in 4 months where they probably forget about this video
Mike Mentzer has left the chat
lol. i switched to high intensity training principles months ago. I was doing 25-30 sets and i thought i was doing much more sets than what fitness influencers and sports scientists advocate. Intensity is the driver of hypertrophy, not the number of how many times the weight goes up and down.
Dr mike a real truth seeker and humble I love this guy
You should talk to Devon Larratt. He is the world champ arm wrestler. He trains 3x/day, basically all day long every day, but the interesting thing is, he only trains his right arm. He has some interesting perspectives on volume.
So I am guessing he came to the same conclusion that Milo's study is suggesting
Is there a specific video of his where he tails about volume? Thanks
This was such a fascinating interview!Do more now.
Anecdotal - when I was a new lifter I wanted huge pectoral muscles like Stimpy. I benched 6 sets per day to failure. 4 - 5 days a week for about a year. My 3 Rep max bench went from 185 to 335 in a year and I grew some pretty good boobs starting at a point you could see my ribs through my chest. I've mentioned this in comment sections here and there and every time poop faces jump up to say I'm full of shit.
After watching this video it seems I was on to something and should have just rotated the approach to all body parts.
Man, I love thid comment! That pure dedication to hardcore! really smiling all over the face after this one!!!🦾🦾🦾😁😁😁🦵
6 sets to failure? How did that look? 15/13/10/8/6/4 reps?
honestly if it wasnt for joint, tendons pain i'd do extremely high volume. i use too when I was young and damn the gains were glorious. these people that call u FoS simply have never been athletes and discovered gym later in life as their first and only physical activity outside of wrist flexion
@@Nunak91 it was 12,10,8,6,3-5,3-5 increasing weight each set of course. My diet was shit the entire time with no supplements. I was 33 years old that year.
@@jamesTWiscojust to clarify cuz like I’m fs gonna want to try this so like EVERYDAY? Or just like every chest day for you ?
banger after banger, keem em' coming chris! I did not understand the difference between convection ovens and air fryers until now.
I love that we're living in a time where we're finally getting some interesting new results again.
Great time to be training. It's such a difference compared to 10 years ago.
I mean it wasn't all terrible back then but there's just so much more data now.
I remember I focused more on technique and the Squeeze from a concentric movement cuz that's what they were saying.
While now the stretched position is more important to focus on.
You don't focus on the stretch, if your in a stretch position your stretched, the weight does the work for you. No amount of brain power is going to stretch the muscle more, gravity does that for you.
You still need to focus and squeeze at the top of reps, you can use alot more force with a squeeze at the top then simply just getting it up, unless you only train with your 1rep max Wieght, otherwise keep focusing on the top.
@@isaarunarom7830You definitely do focus on the stretch lol. This channel has explained it a billion times
It will change again in another few years, it always does.
lol. If you think that you need these studies to finally get those gains you just don’t train hard enough
@@silverhost9782 I think we are using the word focus differently. It's important, to do physically, not mentally. So yeah, you focus on it as in 100% of your reps should go to a stretch you can tolerate and or as far as possible. You NEVER skip out on the stretched position, I agree with on on that.
I'm arguing the mental aspect about thinking about the stretch having any additional impact like the way you can litterly contract more when you mentally focus on that squeeze at the top.
We made fun of top level bodybuilders, who wouldn’t extend their arms all the way on bench press (it’s all just genetics and roids, right?), now we find out that working in the 2/3 range of stretched position is the most optimal.
We made fun Rich Piana’s 8 hours arm workout, now we find out he’s right? He also did “feeder” sets throughout the day.
Reminds me of the midwit meme, with us science-based nerds being the midwits, while bodybuilders and gym bros are the geniuses.
Ive gone up to 30 per week. Made good gains. I kept the weight moderate tho 15 to 20 rep ranges
Thats for each body part? And how much do you rest?
@@aboveaura4817 each muscle group. I was doing full body 3 x week. Took about 1 hour 30 min per workout. I would superset different muscles to save time
@@aboveaura4817does he mean 52 sets per musclegroup? Or in general 52sets ?
Crazy value in these videos, thank you so much Drs!!
I had Milo's arm size when I was 12, maybe he should try 104 sets
thank you for this wonderful information, I have always been afraid to lose strength by cutting back volume on other body parts but this makes training fun again!
I think it also speaks to what you say about not training a muscle hard when it's already roasted. Certain muscle groups can take the volume better. Thoughts?
the man calling me out as being a looser for various unmentioned reasons really got me thinking
Phil Hernon a legend and great trainer advised 8 - 10 sets a bp a week. All you high volume people are ao misguided unless you are on massive amoints of PEDS
- Hey guys, we want to make a study on leg days
- That's how many leg days a week?
- Yes.
Been doing 30ish sets of calves a week (single leg slant board calf raises full ROM) yeah they grew. Should go up to 50 and see what's up. I actually did it to fix calf injuries (it worked).
How intense each set or session though? Or did you spread it out during each day? I’m curious
How many reps?
My calves also grew back in 2021 when i did Nucleus Overload on them for 30 days.
5 sets per day to failure (it was usually between 40-60 reps) every day.
max effort upper:
1rm -> 3x5/5x3 @ 80% backdown
bench variation 4x8
pec isolation 4x12+
tricep isolation 3x8
tricep isolation 3x12+
3 bicep exercises
6 sets of side delts
3 sets of rotator cuff work
dynamic effort lower, but not dynamic, just volume day:
4x8 or 5x5 bench w/ various grips
4x8 bench variation
4x12+ pec isolation
3x10+ tricep isolation
2x12+ tricep isolation
3 bicep exercises
6 sets of side delts
3 sets of rotator cuff work
ME lower:
SQ or DL 1rm -> 3x5/5x3 @ 80%
SQ or DL variation (sq on dl day and vice versa) 3x5
Belt Squat 4x10
RDL 3x10
ATG Split Squat 2x AMRAP
Hip Flexor Raise: 2xAMRAP
DE lower/volume lower:
SQ & DL: 3x8 & 3x8 - sometimes I'll swap to 12x2 / 12 x1, etc.
Leg Press: 4x10
Leg Ext. 4x15
GHR: 3x10
Leg Curl: 3x15
Hip Flexor Raises: 2x AMRAP
Accessory day 1:
4 back exercises, 2 rows, 2 pulls
calves
tib raises + rotations
3 ab exercises
Shrugs
2 neck exercises
abductors/adductors
forearms
total about like 10-16 exercises
Accessory day 2:
Same as day 1 but with different exercises for the same muscle groups.
I split it into 8 days. Lower-Acc-Upper-Rest(optional day, but I train for 1-2 hours on this day too, but not with weights)-Lower-Acc-Upper-Rest(same deal) and then it's lower again. So no days off. My strength days take 1.5-2.5 hours because I take my time during sets, but I also superset a lot, still I have the time, so I take 3-5 minutes between most sets. I sometimes jump rope inbetween sets and always before and after. Typically I'm in there for 3 to 5 hours. I'll do 1-2 hours of jump roping after my workout or kickboxing, etc. Plus I jump rope in my living room throughout the day and I have a heavybag + double end bag in my living room so I hit that ocnstantly, too. Basically I average 3-5 hours of working out every day, but perhaps 1-2 of those hours can be counted as rest as well.
I think this is pretty decent volume. I've dropped 40 kg in 1.5 years and now I'm at 96 kg / 193 cm tall with veins that are visible in my face, biceps, quads, calves, 4pack (6 pack is delayed cuz of fat around my lower abs and love handles, plus I have a tiny bit on the side of my chest). Otherwise I'm definitely below 15% bodyfat and overall getting to a shredded state, but not anything crazy. I've done this routine for 1.5 years on a cut and I've always recovered. I just do progressive overload and if I can't progress I switch the exercise. My deadlift went from 130 kg starting point to 235 kg in 1 year. Bench 110 kg. Bench is hard af to progress on during a cut, well I've only trained during a cut, but it's obvious to me because eveyrthing else blooms compared to that shit. But it's because I need to get my pecs up to par with my very developed triceps. I've trained in the past, also during cuts, never bulked. Got fat twice, lost 40 kg twice. I built quite a lot of muscle during that time and I do look jacked and have 43 cm arms with veins all over for example.
I HAVE been overtrained during this time, I really have. It was so bad that I couldn't put my shoes on after my workout basically, I just sat there for 15 minutes trying to gather the energy to put my fucking shoes on. I've passed out from deadlifting 60 kg as my first rep... but that was dehydration as well. The ONLY reason for this was that I had missed sleep and hadn't hit my protein. So in fact, it's underrecovered, not overtrained. And this was BEFORE I started to jump rope for 1-3 hours a day. I was just doing 2 hours of strength every day. Suddenly my sessions started taking 2 hours longe,r up to 4 hours for the same work. Because I had messed up my protein and sleep. One day of bad sleep = I could crash. So it was a very fine line and still is. Havne't had an issue in a big while and that only happened once, then I got my shit together. I learned to use elctrolytes and salt, that helped a shit ton with dizziness.
Anyway, the amount of volume I do as listed above, is very doable and that's me eating 2000 kcal a day as a 96 kg man who trains 3-5 hours a day on a nearly 2 year long cut. If I were to eat 4000 kcal, holy fuck I could do so much more.
Also, my intensity is high, do not doubt that. I can be doing freaking 9 seconds grinders on my ME lifts. I don't give a flying shit, haha. I'll run myself into the ground, I just don't care. Just have to sleep 7+ hours (I often sleep 12 after really heavy sessions) and never ever not get 180g+ protien.
Forgot to mention I also walk 10 km every day to the gym and never drive anywhere... So that's about 7k steps from just that and I always get above 10k steps.
It's just really crazy to me to see how little people train. 3 sets of bench with 0 intensity, then a few sets of DB shit, then a couple ets of pec flies, 3 sets of tricep pushdowns and go home. Leaving an insane amount in the tank. I look bigger than 99% I've seen in the gym and I've never trained for more than 1.5 years straight and always in a cut. I see people who've lifted for 15 years consitently and can't do 140 kg bench or 220 kg deadlift. 220 kg deadlift took me 6 months... 140 kg squat took me 3 months and 110 kg bench took me 1 year.
This is why "science based training" cannot be taken seriously
Who else after seeing this video is lookin at their training plans volume and considering increasing it?
I'd love to know the quality of these sets. Was it 3 sec controlled exentric with pause at the bottom, or just throwing weight around.
Makes a huge difference in intensity.
Lets say 5sec for a rep with good control and form - would take 1 minute to do 1 set of 12
Vesus 2sec reps which would take 24 seconds to complete and would cause way less fatigue.
They said it's 2-0 RIR
@@Nunak91 Yes I know.
That has nothing to do with the quality of the reps.
@@4700RJL slow tempo 2 RIR you'll do less reps than fast tempo 2 RIR but it's still 2 RIR
@@4700RJLhe said it was under the supervision of an exercise scientist. They were also experienced lifters. So I would assume quality.
I've been lifting for 35 years. Of course more is better. Everybody had always known that. I don't need a study to know that.
If you notice each excercise had one set taken to absolute failure. There is your growth stimulus right there. They should have also had a group train to where all sets were taken to 1 or 2 reps in reserve and none to failure. That would be a better study
What I get from this is that I can probably crank up the volume on low fatigue body parts like calves with little to no detrimental effects but way more gains. Gonna double calf volume just to check it out.
basically. see how it goes. calf training doesn't impact overall fatigue much
It would be nice to compare Volume an high intensity...If you leave Reps in Reserve you can do more If you train more intensly you need less.. both can Produce Worldclass Results .....Look at Dorian Yates and Arnold ..
Best comment right here. I do high volume and leave about 2-3 RIR. As much as I love intensity my body responds amazingly to high volume.
Best Research Viva Interview conducted there by Mike
Mike Mentzer rules
Mike, on this topic, a great interview for you might be any of the elite arm wrestlers many of whom train with absolute spooky volume and intensity. It's an odd sport. We know in sprinting that running marathons would kill one's speed; but, an arm wrestling match is guess work: If one's power can't overwhelm an opponent with a fast pin, endurance comes into play. You've likely seen some of the match and training videos. Canadian Devon Larratt would be an example of a high volume guy spending literally hours on the table, then more time doing specific exercises with bands/pulleys/ weights in training. Anyway, it ties back a bit to this 52 set conversation.
I have a really hard time growing my pecs. The thing problem is that a 6 sets of pecs get me so sore, that I need at least 2-3 days until that soreness subsides. The question I have is: Did the participants train even when still sore and still had amazing growth? Should I just train my pecs every two days for 10 sets, and ignore soreness? This really confuses me.
no
If you're on a 4 day split like Push-Pull-Legs then you should end up hitting chest ~twice/week with more than 3 days of rest in between.
You shouldn’t randomly start doing volumes bc it sounds good, you should be doing what you actually need to grow. Start with two days of chest work. Two exercises each. Two sets for each exercise. Strive to add reps and weight. If you feel fine and things are progressing then add another 1 set to each exercise. After that, add a third movement to one day for two sets. Then a third movement for two sets. Then 3 sets, etc.
I’d be very surprised if you needed more than about 12 sets of chest work a week to actually grow, assuming you’re actually training hard and improving your performance. People over focus on volume.
If you’re truly pushing hard and not recovering maybe that is your mrv for chest, personally my chest and my hamstrings are super responsive to training and don’t take much to beat up but my delts and my quads can handle more than double the volume and recover on time for my next session.
Really nice that you don't have the link for the study