Oh boy, from a former Jehovah's Witnesses! If I went to my grandmother's funeral at let's say the Methodist Church I would have been disfellowshipped(same as excommunicated). No other member would be allowed to help me if my car broke down on the side of the road. No one would speak to me unless it was about coming back to the Kingdom Hall. I never got disfellowshipped. But all I had to do was let the JWs know( 30+yrs ago) I had been one of them before and they will never comes to my door again. I'm definitely shunned. I was one of them for 15 yrs . You're not allowed to socialize with others who are not JWs unless you are working up to preaching to them so I had no other friends. I knew friends who wanted to talk to me in public but were afraid to. It was very sad. Now I do admit they were right about corrupt government, the evilness of the UN and a few other beliefs. At first I did wonder how you and Ben McClintock had not been talked to by church authorities about making your beliefs so public? Just by mentioning things that I believe needed to be discussed people in the church have talked to me like I'm especially"causing contention".
2 yr old post, so dont know where your at now (Aug 2024), ... while God is certainly the authoritative final judge, and many human 'priesthood' acts will be of NO efficacy or reversed, these things DO affect your mortal life. Know a person who was 'x'd', having a firm testimony of gospel & virtuous life, but held to historical views that were not shown to be wrong, & would not deny testimonies simply because of hierarchy threat ... 30 yrs later, in coming back to church, an apostle heard story in person and apologized on behalf of 12 & presidency, declaring it should never have happened! Ya, 30 yrs later, 3 failed marriages later because of being in twilight zone! Valiancy requires ultimate prices be paid for convictions, but basic freedoms to learn & think should not be made 'life & death' , & sometimes you just keep things to yourself or avoid unnecessary confrontation. This particular 'Musing' seems honest & thoughtful enough with basic faithful underpinnings.
I love this. I have 2 great friends who got excommunicated for their personal beliefs. I agree that God will sort things out in the next life and not let those people be condemned.
My dad taught 19th century Mormon Church History at the LDS Institute of Religion at Univerisity of Utah for 30 years. On a regular basis, immature, idealic, ill-informed students complained to administration that they disapproved of the history that their professor taught. That's right; students disapproved of their professor's research. In the 1990s, I was immersed in portrait photography ... and I attended a Young Adult Ward. Several profession photographers told me that actually practicing portrait photography is more important than simply attending photography seminars. So, I asked several (about 300) college aged girls to model for me. About 100 agreed. Some who disagreed were in my Young Adult Ward ... and complained to the bishop. He told me to stop asking ward girls. Previously, the bishop urged the young men to ask the young women on dates ... but taking their picture was (appearantly) prohibited. Prickly people are difficult to navigate.
I think a great story to keep in mind when thinking of this, is the story of Laman and Lemuel and their little brother Nephi in The Book of Mormon. We always think of Laman and Lemuel as the horrible, rebellious older brothers, but based on their traditions they were right. They were entitled to birthrights that were taken from them that were not taken from Nephi. They had "cause" to be upset. From the perspective of existing religious laws and traditions, it could be said their father was wrong to "excommunicate" them. The disconnect happened in their unwillingness to turn to the Lord and - accept - the new directions the Lord was taking them. They were prideful. All they had to do is be humble and turn to the Lord for peace and direction. It's interesting that we were - strongly - counselled against Pride this conference. Pride affects us all. Humility and turning to God would have solved so much of their concerns. By contrast, Nephi showed that he was willing to do all things his Heavenly Father commanded him. Tradition, culture, safety, common sense, personal beliefs and desires, etc. be damned. Joseph Smith felt and behaved similarly. We must be humble to hear the guidance we need via the Holy Spirit. Guidance is best when received from the Lord not the leaders.
Any Bishop / High Council who excommunicates (i.e cancels a person's baptismal covenant with his Eternal Advocate) will have some serious explaining when he (the bishop) arrives for his own final judgement.
Had you advocated for blacks in the priesthood before the policy was changed you would have been on the side of Joseph Smith who gave blacks the priesthood.
As you were speaking about God knowing even if a High Council were to excommunicate unrighteously I was reminded on a quote. "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." Or “Kill them. The Lord knows those that are his own". Dead is still dead. Families, jobs, and lives are disrupted. I hope we don’t ever return to inquisition type zeal. Thanks for your thoughts. Amen and amen.
(2 years too late. October, ‘24) You absolutely should be excommunicated. You encourage way too much individual accountability and independent development. I was raised that this church was started because of questions. Joseph Smith had questions that no religion could answer. My parents told me the Truth feared no questions. So when I had questions and brought them to my teachers, leaders, and the writings of the church, not only were the answers difficult to find and many abhorrent, the act of questioning itself was condemned. There was an almost comical moment of, “don’t question the authority of the brethren.” Which I brought up because of a Catholic Bishop who spoke at a BYU sponsored fireside where he said, “it’s either us or you. Either we’ve had the authority since Peter or you had it restored by Peter.” But that particular leader’s response was a conversation ender, not an answer. My point is, you ask people to ask questions and find answers. The LDS church runs from answers and condemns questions. You’ll eventually, if you haven’t already, ask a question they just won’t tolerate.
Nothing that was said was pertinent. Is this Christ's church? Yes or no? Is the book of mormon true yes or no? Literally everything else deals with man. Man is imperfect and quite often makes really stupid decisions. That's it. Christ's church or not, nothing more.
Oh boy, from a former Jehovah's Witnesses! If I went to my grandmother's funeral at let's say the Methodist Church I would have been disfellowshipped(same as excommunicated). No other member would be allowed to help me if my car broke down on the side of the road. No one would speak to me unless it was about coming back to the Kingdom Hall. I never got disfellowshipped. But all I had to do was let the JWs know( 30+yrs ago) I had been one of them before and they will never comes to my door again. I'm definitely shunned. I was one of them for 15 yrs . You're not allowed to socialize with others who are not JWs unless you are working up to preaching to them so I had no other friends. I knew friends who wanted to talk to me in public but were afraid to. It was very sad. Now I do admit they were right about corrupt government, the evilness of the UN and a few other beliefs. At first I did wonder how you and Ben McClintock had not been talked to by church authorities about making your beliefs so public? Just by mentioning things that I believe needed to be discussed people in the church have talked to me like I'm especially"causing contention".
2 yr old post, so dont know where your at now (Aug 2024), ... while God is certainly the authoritative final judge, and many human 'priesthood' acts will be of NO efficacy or reversed, these things DO affect your mortal life. Know a person who was 'x'd', having a firm testimony of gospel & virtuous life, but held to historical views that were not shown to be wrong, & would not deny testimonies simply because of hierarchy threat ... 30 yrs later, in coming back to church, an apostle heard story in person and apologized on behalf of 12 & presidency, declaring it should never have happened! Ya, 30 yrs later, 3 failed marriages later because of being in twilight zone! Valiancy requires ultimate prices be paid for convictions, but basic freedoms to learn & think should not be made 'life & death' , & sometimes you just keep things to yourself or avoid unnecessary confrontation.
This particular 'Musing' seems honest & thoughtful enough with basic faithful underpinnings.
I love this. I have 2 great friends who got excommunicated for their personal beliefs. I agree that God will sort things out in the next life and not let those people be condemned.
My dad taught 19th century Mormon Church History at the LDS Institute of Religion at Univerisity of Utah for 30 years. On a regular basis, immature, idealic, ill-informed students complained to administration that they disapproved of the history that their professor taught. That's right; students disapproved of their professor's research.
In the 1990s, I was immersed in portrait photography ... and I attended a Young Adult Ward. Several profession photographers told me that actually practicing portrait photography is more important than simply attending photography seminars. So, I asked several (about 300) college aged girls to model for me. About 100 agreed. Some who disagreed were in my Young Adult Ward ... and complained to the bishop. He told me to stop asking ward girls. Previously, the bishop urged the young men to ask the young women on dates ... but taking their picture was (appearantly) prohibited.
Prickly people are difficult to navigate.
I think a great story to keep in mind when thinking of this, is the story of Laman and Lemuel and their little brother Nephi in The Book of Mormon. We always think of Laman and Lemuel as the horrible, rebellious older brothers, but based on their traditions they were right. They were entitled to birthrights that were taken from them that were not taken from Nephi. They had "cause" to be upset. From the perspective of existing religious laws and traditions, it could be said their father was wrong to "excommunicate" them.
The disconnect happened in their unwillingness to turn to the Lord and - accept - the new directions the Lord was taking them. They were prideful. All they had to do is be humble and turn to the Lord for peace and direction.
It's interesting that we were - strongly - counselled against Pride this conference. Pride affects us all. Humility and turning to God would have solved so much of their concerns. By contrast, Nephi showed that he was willing to do all things his Heavenly Father commanded him. Tradition, culture, safety, common sense, personal beliefs and desires, etc. be damned. Joseph Smith felt and behaved similarly.
We must be humble to hear the guidance we need via the Holy Spirit. Guidance is best when received from the Lord not the leaders.
Hell no you shouldn’t
Any Bishop / High Council who excommunicates (i.e cancels a person's baptismal covenant with his Eternal Advocate) will have some serious explaining when he (the bishop) arrives for his own final judgement.
Yes! Thank you for saying it. Church doctrine has definitely changed. And it’s embarrassing. That our leaders continue to say that it has not.
liars, with big egos , substituting themselves as God, rabidly bent on controlling members' thoughts and beliefs,
Good stuff
Had you advocated for blacks in the priesthood before the policy was changed you would have been on the side of Joseph Smith who gave blacks the priesthood.
As you were speaking about God knowing even if a High Council were to excommunicate unrighteously I was reminded on a quote.
"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."
Or
“Kill them. The Lord knows those that are his own".
Dead is still dead. Families, jobs, and lives are disrupted. I hope we don’t ever return to inquisition type zeal.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Amen and amen.
not to worry. we got weapons .
Been listening for almost 10 minutes now, and I find myself saying, Blah, blah, blah.....
And you’re the problem with the “church”, don’t think outside the box, complete all the checklists, do as you’re told and get to heaven.
@@ronin-en9fz yeah, get to heaven.......on your way to hell !
(2 years too late. October, ‘24) You absolutely should be excommunicated. You encourage way too much individual accountability and independent development.
I was raised that this church was started because of questions. Joseph Smith had questions that no religion could answer. My parents told me the Truth feared no questions.
So when I had questions and brought them to my teachers, leaders, and the writings of the church, not only were the answers difficult to find and many abhorrent, the act of questioning itself was condemned. There was an almost comical moment of, “don’t question the authority of the brethren.” Which I brought up because of a Catholic Bishop who spoke at a BYU sponsored fireside where he said, “it’s either us or you. Either we’ve had the authority since Peter or you had it restored by Peter.” But that particular leader’s response was a conversation ender, not an answer.
My point is, you ask people to ask questions and find answers. The LDS church runs from answers and condemns questions. You’ll eventually, if you haven’t already, ask a question they just won’t tolerate.
Asking questions is humility. Presuming your are the only one capable of questioning or have stumbled on answers that no one else has is pride.
dearly* not dealing...autocorrect
Nothing that was said was pertinent. Is this Christ's church? Yes or no? Is the book of mormon true yes or no? Literally everything else deals with man. Man is imperfect and quite often makes really stupid decisions. That's it. Christ's church or not, nothing more.