My husband is bedridden. We are so grateful that we can watch sacrament meeting on RUclips each week. We were touched by the spirit by several of the testimonies born today. It was an uplifting meeting. We are so grateful for our membership in the Church even though we are in a different situation now than we used to be. We are so grateful for the blessings that come to us by being members of the Church.
It varies a lot from congregation to congregation. The lowest I've personally attended had over 1500 on the records with average attendance of around 120.
@@davidrobinson1201 Australia. Very poor attendance in some Canadian congregations too. It varied a lot, some wards were much stronger than others. Overall from my experience 20-30% seems reasonable. I don't have much experience attending church in the US though
As a clerk, in a less active area of southern Utah County, I’ve been taking attendance for a little over a year now, and true, we average about 32% attendance.
My observation and preparation of reports is that 20-30% of members attending weekly seems correct. We over inflate the numbers in quarterly reports when we count attendance as at least once per quarter. The reality of this activity level is 20% of those attending hold and service fully in callings. Pareto applies everywhere here. When selecting members for callings there really aren't that many choices if you want someone who will be all in.
Here’s the thing. I consider myself active as I go everyday I CAN go. I work every other Sunday as a nurse. I Zoom the meeting when i can’t go. We do have quite a few people in the medical field where I live too, who might be in the same or similar boat. Next year, when church starts earlier I will be able to attend weekly. So while I do not think this is a large chunk of members I do think it may answer for some.
Great report Connor. I run the broadcast for my ward. Looking at the stats shows that most people duck in and out constantly. Some are the housebound or just watching from the cry room (which I fully endorse), but... Our viewership has dropped by more than half in three years. Christmas, Easter, etc., it picks up. Point is that attendance, despite our combining wards that doubled our members, has held about the same over the last several years. Being a hand on deck I can clearly see that people are losing interest in Church.
I'm in a Ward in SoCal with 650 members. With guests, we are lucky to have 140- and that's counted 30 minutes into sacrament meeting for late comers! 21.5%
The cell phone data massively underestimates attendance. It assumes that everyone goes everywhere with their cell phones. I have a large number of very active friends and relatives that never take their cell phone to church and use their physical scriptures. Yet other friends and family completely power down their devices or put them in airplane mode before leaving for church. Heck, I even leave my cell phone at home much of the time I go to run errands, do shopping, or other tasks. I'm actually training myself to no longer need/want a device in my pocket.
I was at the temple yesterday as we were sitting down for the endowment session, an old guy who was using a cane, moving slowly, his phone started playing some tune😂. I guess some people take their phones all the way.
I was a clerk for about ten years in our Orem ward. Sacrament attendance ranged between 75-95%. I'm aware that was unusually high. When I lived in California, sacrament attendance was 30-35%.
I can tell you that my ward in Lehi Utah has about 65-70% attendance each week. We have a huge ward and fill the chapel and cultural hall. It’s wonderful
I would be willing to bet if you took the total number of members on the roll and the average sacrament meeting attendance it would be closer to probably 40 to 50% in a strong ward like yours. There are probably more people on your records than you realize
@davidrobinson1201 on my mission(st Louis), the average activity never really got above 40%, my utah wards are like 60% because of the density of members being neighbors and being in more contact with each other. Many of the wards in my mission struggled at least a little getting constant Priesthood members. I bet money most wards are only 40% average fully active outside of utah.
Active non-member, I go every week :). The bishop actually made me chorister :) I highly recommend weekly church for everyone, atheists included - I find the LDS church is my favorite.
In a previous ward I was in, there was a non-member husband of one of our members who came every week. He was called to serve on the Elder's Quorum missionary committee. Many members had no idea he wasn't a member. One time, the missionaries, who didn't know he wasn't a member, asked him to go on exchanges, which he agreed to.
@@WalterReade Yeah, me and the wife are non-members, but our two daughters got baptized. We hang out with the missionaries on their p-days to teach them self-defense - some of them get pretty surprised to find out we're not actually members :)
@@kristinrichmond8185 Two parts, really - one, mormons seem to be the most christian christians. JWs come to your door and tell you you're going to hell, LDS missionaries come to your door with a smile and a good attitude. I'm sure there might be a small church here and there that behaves even better than your average ward, but mormons have actually built a fairly scalable system that is, on average, higher performing than others. The second, it's just such an American religion - so much of it is infused with echoes of the constitution (three people in the bishopric and other leadership settings, like the three branches of the US government), and the fact that you actually have votes for sustaining people (I know, mostly pro forma, but the symbolism is powerful), and of course the speakers each week are actually part of the laity rather than a "priest" class. I'm an unabashed patriot, and I love seeing the entire mormon culture infused with that kind of American flavor. But most of all, I judge religions by how much they reduce resentment, and how much they increase gratitude. Mormons really do this the best. When "The Book of Mormon" musical came out, instead of getting all offended, the church bought a full page ad in the playbill. Being able to laugh and accept some of the most wicked insults you can possibly imagine, is incredibly impressive given that other religions will kill you if you draw a cartoon of their guy. At this point, I don't take the scriptures literally, but I do take them metaphorically, so I find despite my unbelief, I share the same moral conclusions as the active members in my ward. Been going there for 6 years, and they still make me feel welcome :)
I notice that our sacrament meetings are pretty regular with attendance, one thing i also notice is a huge percentage of people who just kind of hang out in the hallways and skip second hour all together. it just seems strange to me for members to get dressed up, drive to church and not really participate 🤔
A major flaw in the cell phone data approach is that many people, including myself until a few months ago, never take their phones to church. Even now, I put it on airplane mode to keep people from calling and interrupting. In my ward, the wifi will still work on airplane mode. There are many more like me out there. Others use ipads or other devices besides phones. This will skew the data down in a major way.
I think a significant portion of those not attending weekly might not believe in the church anymore, but maybe they are just slothful. If the church is really true though, and someone really understands that it is, I think they would do what it takes to attend weekly. I know I would. I’m a member of the church, but I’m not attending regularly because I don’t think it’s true anymore, and the members who do believe in all of it don’t give space for those who are unsure. I don’t share my controversial convictions or disrupt meetings when I do attend. But when other members want to know what I’ve been doing and where I’ve been after I skip 3 weeks of church, it’s uncomfortable. When they target me with special “kindness”, it’s uncomfortable. I really just want to come and go as I please without being treated strangely, but as more and more of the socially-normal folks leave the church and staunch members become the majority, there’s no comfortable place for me to be. I’m still willing for my mind to be changed about the church, but I’m not going to a place during my free time where I’m treated like I’m broken because it isn’t uplifting.
@ Is it fair to say a perspective I haven’t discovered yet? If I knew what it was exactly, I would have already researched it and there wouldn’t be a need for my mind to be changed. More honesty about church history and less divisiveness with non-believers would be a good start to having meaningful conversations.
@ I get it. I have a hard time with judging church history when I didn’t live the moment. The Lord is trying to accomplish Celestial goals with a fallen world and it’s fallen inhabitants. Despite the Constitution and religious freedom, the Saints barely made it. If it hadn’t been for Quincy, Illinois Mormonism as we know it might have died. My disdain is that we’re infants in the Gospel, therefore we get milk at church rather than meat. I know I’m rambling and probably don’t make sense but I wish you success in your search. My latest blessing is serving in the library instead of going to priesthood…I count my blessings.
The world out there, the internet info, and many other sources of info could definitely shake anyone’s faith is the restored gospel. What I do when confronted with doubts is to read and remember the Book of Mormon. Every time I read it, I know it is the word of God and I can’t deny it. It is the cornerstone of the church! Many good wishes for you on your journey.
Also, as the church changes doctrine and becomes more woke, I become less interested. I didn't dedicate everything to the church because it was a cool social club, I did it because it was true. Because certain truths were immutable, as the church changes those things to fit in more with the world, they lose the interest of those who went because it was true!
I keep the Classical 89 station owned by BYU on at work. The Tuesday devotionals have become progressively more and more DEI rants and less and less doctrinal.
I agree that the church culture has changed and needs fixing but the doctrine is not changed. Years ago I had to decide that the church doctrine and church culture are two different things. However I would say that the culture is really stifling me lately but I'll hold to the doctrine. Cant really expect octogenarians to have their finger on the pulse of whats really happening. I wish we had some apostles in their 30s and 40s....but maybe they would actually push out most members if they really went after it all. I think Ezra Taft Benson today would have pushed out more than half the members. Just attacking family destroying Marxist feminism thats deep within the church membership would crush most members
Just spent the last 10 min doing some quick counts on my ward directory in Church Tools. I am not in a leadership position but I do know the ward fairly well and know whom I see and whom I don’t see (just in the spirit of knowing the ward, not tracking them). I came up with 69% I see 3 and 4 times a month. Basic Bountiful Utah Ward where we all seem to be putting our pants on one leg at a time like everyone else.
I think the trend data is good but the percentages are really low. I am a ward clerk and count attendance weekly. Our ward gets about 37 to 42% of members on the rolls depending on the month.
I was exec secretary in my ward ini AZ and we get about 70% attendance on any given week but I would say our active membership is around 75-80%. We are an exception for sure though because I know in the mission field and my ward growing up are all closer to that 30-40%. But of the many inactive, a good percentage probably don't "self identify" as LDS. Most of the people who don't attend in my current ward have never attended and seem to be people who were baptized as children but never attended as adults. One family I'm aware of actually identifies as Catholic now but they're still on our records.
There's a disconnect in the data for me. We count sacrament meeting attendance every week. At least for the 20 years or so that I've payed attenention (across a few different wards in three different states), sacrament meeting attendance has consistently been about 1/3 of the membership rolls, not the 15% as claimed by the cell phone analysis. There are two possible reasons: (1) attendance is much lower in high LDS population states (California, Utah, etc.) to bring down the average, or (2) there is a flaw in the cell phone analysis.
Now imagine: 1. Being single 2. Not living in UT/ AZ/ NV (most other states have very weak singles wards) 3. Being over the age of 25 4. All coupled with these low attendance numbers Now you know why we are losing so many singles. Marriage is the greatest predictor of activity and future Lds growth . We are losing singles very quickly and therefore losing Lds family formation and offspring . It's a massive issue and I have thoughts on this but the church culture is so narrow minded, gynocentric and myopic that it falls on deaf ears.
Well, I know of several wonderful people of both genders who fit the above 4 criteria - and I care. I don't have easy answers, except "Come, Lord Jesus, Come." I know He will return and dry up tears - including yours ruckin3.
I've seen my ward's attendance numbers out here in northern Georgia, and before 2020 it was regularly around 50%-55% each week. In 2020 and half of 2021 we had church at home, but after everyone returned to in-person church attendance, it has stayed consistently around 30%-35% attendance each week. I guess a lot of people feel as I do: we've had enough of the lies, and we're choosing to follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible and Book of Mormon, which is mutually exclusive to following the "prophet". I still attend every now and then, because I have a lot of friends there, and the church does still teach some truths. But thanks to Nelson's Blunder, I've gone down the rabbit hole and found that not only is the church not following the doctrines taught in the Book of Mormon, it has not been led by Jesus Christ since Joseph and Hyrum were murdered by John Taylor and Willard Richards, if not before then.
Clerk headcount and Sunday school rolls will be more precise. It makes sense that reported attendance will be higher than actual, but I wouldn't be surprised if cell phone data systematically undercounts.
This may be. But I also think mileage will vary from ward to ward and stake to stake. I know for certain that there is no small number of wards that overstate attendance for purposes of getting a higher budget.
Bless you. I find it so distracting with all the phones at church. Visiting a ward, I sat behind the Bishop's wife and she was texting her son during the Sacrament song, prayer and service. (yes I peeked to see if she would turn it off). So the rest of the meeting was wondering if she would turn in off. I see parents on their dang phones when their children are wanting their attention. I really try - but the Spirit leaves the room. Teenagers - heads down on looking online. The intensity is an indication that they are not looking at anything related to church. I was in a session at the Temple and an older man's phone rang and he answered it and said "I'm in the middle of a session right now and can't talk". It's like a wall fell down and the worldly aspect of life flowed right into the room. I almost give up for ever feeling the Spirit at church on a regular basis.
@GAILandROD I see the same things at church that's why I refuse to bring it. I see game playing and texting during sacrament as well, and it's the fathers and mothers not just teenagers! Disrespectful behavior rules the day.
What about virtual attendance? Do you have any data on that? In 2020 when home church came into play, many have continued zooming church most or part of the time. Since you were using location data, this probably wasn't included. Do you have any data on Temple attendance? This would be a good musing topic.
The cell phone data was from April 2019 to Feb 2020, so before virtual was really a thing. But, if the analysis was re-done, it would have to try to account for it. (At least in our ward, virtual attendance accounts for < 5% of total attendance.)
@@WalterReade Correct. This study was pre-COVID. Anecdotal evidence suggests that church membership among various faiths (see AP's article on "The Nones" or Pew Research) has decreased following the pandemic, so a new study would need to be performed.
So the membership has learned to lie as well as the leadership. I’m still waiting for all these wonderful things to fall in my lap for all the service and obedience, for the mission and countless things I was told would pay off. Truth is the church isn’t losing members, the members are losing the church with its lurch to the left.
Sorry, but you sound like a bitter old man. Missions are super beneficial, you look at the young men that actually served honorably and the way that they compare to other men of their same age and you can’t tell me that’s not true.
@ I think you are missing my point. I am not saying that every return missionary stays active. The majority of my companions and mission friends have fallen away, and I served from 2012-2014, so there has been 10 years since my time in the mission field. I was never promised riches or anything of that nature. But we are taught that every blessing is Heaven is tied to obedience. Let’s just look at some of the basic things that I am speaking about that are directly tied to blessings of missionary service. There was a study done by the University of Tennessee about how RMs adapted to coming to college level athletics and it points out how they were able to: Put things into perspective. Being more mentally resilient Make effective goals Greater Perseverance in trials Learn new skills and apply those that were used on a mission. These are all skills and attributes that are directly linked to time served as a missionary. I served in Scotland and Ireland, where success rates were low in terms of baptisms. We also had the highest rates of depression of any mission in the world at the time, but every single person I served with learned something about being selfless, and putting yourself outside your comfort zone. These are blessings that came from missions. Not all came to know their Savior, but. I can tell you that I learned all these skills and what it meant to walk with Christ. The OP sounds like one of those missionaries who thought just because he went out, he was entitled to the greatest of all blessings, and from my experience, there lower level blessings for those that serve, greater blessings for those that serve diligently, and the greatest blessings for those who serve with love of Christ.
@ my comment must have been deleted. You are missing my point. There are definitely blessings that come to the lives of return Missionaries, that may not be activity in the church. The OP makes it sound like every return missionary was promised riches, which was never part of the job description I got from my mission president
Not surprised by this. Usually our ward has way fewer people attending that I know are in the ward, but this has been true my whole life and in every ward I've been in. I don't think there is necessarily a clear trend from my anecdotal observations. What I do know is youth these days are far better with temple attendance than my generation ever was. I know most of the youth in our ward and stake regular go to the temple on their own without parents even suggesting or pushing.
I did what Connor suggested and looked at our ward’s average sacrament attendance has been. We are consistently between 67% and 70% currently and dating back to the same timeframe of the cell phone data set Connor is citing. Not sure what that is telling me other than our counting efforts each Sunday in our local ward more closely aligns with self-reported polling data than the cell phone data.
What about the bulk of children in the Church? A lot of them are too you to or do not carry cell phones. So if you are going to use the full population of the US you need to adjust for the children which would increase our attendance up from 15%. I just listened to the full podcast and see that you did bring this up.
The research paper itself address the fact, as well as people turning off their cell phones, switching their cell phones, leaving the country, and not allowing location-tracking. Read the paper itself rather than someone's review of the paper. This statistics shown by this paper are also well-supported by the census data of various countries that all show that people who self-report as members are well-below the numbers reported by the church.
We have 8:30am church this year, we definitely miss once a month every month this year, sometimes twice, thats more rare, maybe three months this year we’ve missed twice. I just can’t get us there by myself with three little kids. Doing my best. But that’s the honest truth. Can’t wait til we get a later time this next year. 😮💨
pre covid we were at 35-40%; post covid 25-30%. from what i've seen and discussed with others, in the U.S., this is where we're at with only about a +/- 3% variation from ward to ward ive been involved in the stake unit statistics since 2015
The data undercounts children, many who don't have cell phones, and those who attend church virtually as some wards still allow that. Cell phone data can only take you so far.
I thinks it’s correct for the study to exclude children to some extent, since children don’t necessarily choose to go and I predict many will leave based on how the church is going. Not saying that’s a good thing; it’s an unfortunate, realistic projection.
@steel6322 but that isn't the point of the survey when taken as a percentage of total membership. If the survey were taking only adult membership, I'd find it more reliable. Though having worked in senior and assisted living, I doubt the in house branches of worship are counted in these numbers as well.
The church is trying to straddle both sides of the line. They need to take a bold stand and speak out against the wokeness. But the way things are going, so many (myself included) don't feel like the church has anything to offer that they can't get at home.
You can't get temple ordinances in the home. You can't gather Zion from your home. You missed out on the greatest assignments of His children, in the latter days.
I don’t believe the temple is necessary. I believe Jesus when he says we are the temple of the Lord. I also believe Jesus when He says he does nothing in secret. There is no revelation outlining the endowment. I believe Brigham Young took the Masonic rituals and religified them to suit his own purposes. I realize this is all in contrast to Brighamite dogma, but I believe what I’m saying is true.
There is a huge flaw in this data. You only have to be 8 to be a member which inflates the overall membership number, many of the youth don’t have phones or wouldn’t be allowed to bring them to church, therefore this would throw off the percentage by a large margin. I don’t think these numbers are reliable. Certainly not 70 percent but definitely not as low as 15 percent. My guess would be somewhere in between those two numbers.
8:30am or 9am Church for families with young children is ridiculous. Many good & inspired adjustments have already been made & implemented. Move that back to 10am/11am for familes with young children. This isn't Hard.
i served in utah in 2013-2015 just from my own expirience of talking to people on street and door to door it was half lds and half non lds ...and half of the lds were not active so i wouldnt expect it to be better now then it was then
My phone is on airplane mode ALL the time unless I am using it. Does this study include children who don’t carry cell phones? Many members work in the armed forces, medical field or firefighters and law enforcement. These have to work on the sabbath. The church has its own counting system as you know. Unfortunately I believe that most wards have less than 50% activity. The Church has the best statistics.
Final question is a good one! Why don't people go to church much? Like you said, different reasons for different people but for me it's simple: The juice ain't worth the squeeze. Simple as that. When I was young, after BYU and my mission, the promise of a great life as a reward for obedience and faithfulness was appealing. As time went by and I served and paid, prayed and obeyed my expectations relative to sacrifice (the squeeze) I found disappointing, to say the least. As I aged I found the promise of "you get nothing in this life but you get to go to heaven in the end for your goodness and sacrifice" to be the only "real" promise the church offers. Is that even real? Seems cultish. As a young, poor man I was uncared for by the church or by the YSA women in the church who were considered of high SMV. The church was always there to take from me but never contributed to my welfare ... just the promised I'd go to heaven. Seemed *LAZY* to me! ... and unrighteous Now I'm an old man with kids and I'm wealthy (self made! no thanks for family, friends or the church) and the LDS Church, who was never there for me in the past, is wanting to "be there for me and my kids" in the future ... but this pseudo "fellowship" feels like an expensive, insincere scam, at this point. I mean, I'd LOVE to find family and love in the church - I'd LOVE to give all my millions in trade for love and fellowship, meaning and purpose ... but, alas, the LDS Church does not care about me and never has. It does not sacrifice for me, my wife, my kids ... never has. It's a one-way-street and that makes me sad because the Church of JESUS (the) Christ should not be a parasite - yet, it is. I'm sad I'm inactive because I love the BofM and I love the gospel but activity in the LDS Church is a true act of masochism ... I don't know about other people who want to "sin" or are "lazy" or "selfish" but for me any my family it's like squeezing a turnip trying to harvest juice. The juice just ain't worth the squeeze. Makes me sad because I believe the gospel is true - but the church is a one-way-street of torture and while I go to church maybe 10 times a year and watch conference every 6 months, my wife and young kids absolutely hate going or watching. They say it's boring and "fake". When the GA's tell us they love us it make me cringe and makes my wife roll her eyes because to me it's a grift and to my wife it's just a lie as we both know they don't love us or our kids or even know us. But I'm the man, the daddy, the patriarch and the breadwinner and I'm expected to give millions of dollars to the church on top of the rest of it so for me, getting past the "boring and fake" part and finding personal righteousness and sanctification through the monotony compounded with the fact I'm voiceless and powerless to actually be seen and still expected to pay 10% is ludicrous. I wish my family and me were loved by a church and I fear the future because of the obvious failings of the LDS Church for me and my family... but what can I do? Like the church has told me for decades, I am nobody and completely unimportant. And maybe that's true. But if I'm so powerless and unimportant then I'll find another place to spend my time and money. I know where I'm wanted and where I'm not wanted and the LDS Church let's me know, in the end, after all the fake "ward family" BS that neither I nor my family is valued there. And it's taken me decades to realize the most important rule in life is to only go where you are valued!
@@emh7956 Nice deflection. The answer is, probably not? I mean, I used to in my teens, twenties and thirties but by the time I got into my 50's it started seeming like a BLATENT one-way-street. I mean, it always seemd like a one-way-street but, like a donkey chasing a carrot, the "law of sacrifice" to a heroic and rewarding end made it all seem worth it! But, alas, like a hot, materialistic girlfriend, there is no end to the demands and there is no gratitude either. I became wealthy in my late 30's and notices the church member, the girls in the church and the leaders in the church (who ignored and took advantage of me in my youthful poverty) were all flattering me in my 40's and 50's and very welcoming in a fake way the continued to not benefit me in any real way. I'd ask leaders "where were you when I came home from my mission and was homeless for 4 years and hungry?" They'd always tell me, "Oh my goodness! You were wronged, David, and if I were your leader then I'd have helped you and done things much differently! ... believe me!!! Now... ready to pay your tithing? I'll give you a temple recommend if you dooooooo!!!" So, your deflection is invalid. Why do we love the Lord? Because HE LOVED US FIRST! Why do we love the Lord's church? Because it loves us first. The LDS Church never loved me, my wife, or my family. The LDS people never even pretended to love me until I became self-made and wealthy. These are simple facts. How can the LDS Church expect my love when it did not take the first step? In fact, in my life, I took the first step for miles and miles, decade after decade waiting for my unrequited love to be returned and awaiting my rewards in this and the next life. My non-LDS wife and kids (oldest is 15) have never felt love coming from the ward and, in the past, have taken them several times. I will not force them ... they simply do not feel valued there. And... I know just how they feel. So, deflection aside, your question has no basis, my friend. I do not dislike or hate the people in my ward ... but I do not love them like I have in the past. I am not a masochist. Sorry, your pivot didn't work, bro.
Man, the pain in this is palpable! I mean it is real. Anyone reading this can feel that you want or wanted it to be real. It is fascinating that you still attend 10 times a year and listen to conference even given what you have to say about it all. Life is definitely messy and so is the church. In my case, I can't get past the knowing that the Father and Son appeared to Joseph Smith personally, then sent Moroni, then Peter, James and John and so much more after that. I think we will all be amazed in the day when all things are made known to us as plain as day, when the knowledge of God covers the earth as the oceans do, when we no longer "look through the glass darkly". I think we will see that this was indeed the promised restoration but that it was also allowed to be entrenched in the messiness of the human experience. All of it will make sense. He will "wipe away all the tears" and we will understand the whys. I commend you for your heart, apparently you want it to be real but it's obvious you have really felt abandoned and let down. Paul referred to himself as a prisoner of Christ. When multitudes of people started abandoning Christ due to the hard doctrine he began teaching, he turned to his disciples and asked "will you leave me too?" with Peter exclaiming "to whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life". I feel a sense of this in your words, that it is hard to fully let go. The doctrine of Christ breaths life into our existence, I hope you can cling to that. If the church is corrupted (it happened to the Nephites multiple times), I hope you will be part of the solution from within. Attend, love, have no expectations, look towards others and watch the miracle unfold before your eyes. Love you brother.
@@TheGreatDadooread 3rd nephi 16:10. There is a prophesied partial apostasy throughout scripture and the early days of the church. It is the Lords church thus it His to correct. The church does not follow scriptural tithing and it ignores half of the scriptures. The LDS people have severe chosen people syndrome,just like ancient Israel and the Jews later. We have stepped away. The church cant seem to figure out what it wants to be. Investment firm, pride flags on Byu, pride celebration at conferenc center, 2021 womens conference pushing homo, uchtdorfs 2000 donation to biden, a paid "unpaid" clergy, for every 1 dollar of international charity, 5 is spent on membership support, and 99 spent on investments. The list goes on. Changing temple covenants to embrace feminism, emasculation of men. Isaiah 3:12 warns of it. Now the sisters apparently have access ti priesthood power by merely existing. The SEC ruled in the Ensign peak investment scandal that the 1st pres and the presiding bishopric knowingly violated the law, thus the 5 million dollar fine. No disciplinary court. You or i do that, well....
@@davidrobinson1201 thank you for your beautiful, eloquent and insightful comment. i cannot have no expectations and i will not love unconditionally ... these ideas are tools of Satan disguised as Christianity. I have expectations and conditions ... just as God does for us. I hope my expectations and conditions fall in line with God's reason and system of accounting... I think they do, but hey, even Kim Kardashian thinks her lamps are full of oil... so who is to say what is true?
I didn't quite follow the methodology, so I found and read the full paper. The data sample was 2.1 mil cell phones. They followed which church buildings (if any) those cell phones visited to determine their religion. Phones that regularly visited LDS buidings were 0.29% of the 2.1 mil; 0.29% of 330 mil US population = 1 mil. And, 1 mil / 6.9 mil US LDS members = roughly 15%. The non-phone owning children of those in the 2 mil phone sample are already implicitly included in the 15% because the 0.29% is generalized to the entire US population. However, since LDS families have more children than average,, it's probably undercalling it a little. Either way, 15% just seems too low for the US . Based on my experience in the church, inside-Utah is about 60%+ and outside Utah is about 30%. I noticed that the study author is also an LDS bishop, so it would be interesting to bounce this perceived discrepancy off him.
Oh, the irony. If you only knew... The very fact that you feel that way means that you *are* good enough. And if anyone at church (LDS or any other) treats you like you aren't, then that's their problem, not yours, and they need to work that out with God. "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, *for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."* - Jesus, Matthew 5: 11-12
or the buffets... I live here in Vegas and have for decades and have never gambled but me and my family go to casinos all the time for shopping, food and more (like movies)
I found that stat suspect as well. I've been to a number of casinosm but it was always when I was walking through a hotel lobby while at a conference in Vegas. I was at a tech conference in Vegas this past April, and probably "visited" a half dozen casinos walking around the strip, getting dinner, etc.
The data seems correct anecdotally. Pre-covid, attendance was about 50-55%. Post-covid, its been half that, about 25-30%. Or roughly what the cellphone data discussed was showing.
I've seen this study referenced elsewhere and I still don't understand how they know what religion belongs to a certain cell phone? As far as surveys go, I would expect that many inactive LDS (or any church for that matter) would also not identify as LDS since they don't attend but never bothered to take their name off the membership records. In addition, as you say, those who do identify probably exaggerate their attendance. So I can see how that would skew the numbers in favor of better attendance. The LDS church counts attendance of sacrament meetings every week and in my experience, it has hovered around 40% of all members on the record, which is close to the cell phone data.
@@WalterReade Total attendance I can see. It's calculating that attendance against total membership for a percentage where I don't see how cell phone data gets you there.
@@raynelson6575 The church publishes its total US membership number (currently 6,868,793). So it's "number of phones in an LDS church every week" divided by the church's published numbers. (To your point, cell phones where not used to calculate the total.)
You’re not accounting for how much cheaper casino hotels are! Never gambled in my life but the cell phone would have data showing me there. And Nevada, the hub of casinos is full of us
20:49 - I'd wager that reason LDS are missing the "Never" and "Almost never" categories for bring a phone to church is two reasons: (1) LDS have a relative lower median age compared to other religious groups, but more importantly (2) we use our Gospel Library app for hymns, lessons, scriptures, etc. during church.
Church of 50%er’s! Half the membership attends regularly and out of that 50%, only half of them have callings etc, and 15-20% of them do the bulk of it, and some of them are good people, some are the over achievers, some are campaigning for the corporate position (stake leadership). There is a % of good , normal everyday people that understand the world and how not to be offensive by the mere culture of the church. And I could keep going!
I am recovering from a traumatic head injury and developed seizures. I have a seizure dog and my bishop asked me to not come to church with it. They bring me the sacrament at home. Does my desire to attend count even though I have been asked not to? Yes I know that violates ADA guidelines and my lawyers at Kirton and McKonkie sent me the ADA’s contact info so I could have them sue the church on my behalf. I do t want to sue the church. I want there to be better training for bishops. This is not an emotional support dog. This is a verified seizure dog who has saved my life multiple times. My bishop thinks it is irreverent to bring “pets” to church. I don’t want to make a scene or be where I am not welcome. How would you handle the situation Conner? I have been told if I do t sue, policy and training g in the church do not change.
@@EKowallis that's bullshit ... most "emotion support animals" are unlicensed and do not qualify for public spaces but even if they were they are not allowed in private spaces without permission of the owner - and LDS Churches are private spaces are you are NOT the owner! WAKE UP!
@TheGreatDadoo Actually Churches are exempt, but it they can make accommodations in the temple, they can certainly make accommodations at church. Secondly, emotional support animals are NOT the same as a service dog. You didn't read my comment.
The house of prayer means the temple, not a meetinghouse. The early saints didn't build meetinghouses except temporarily while they were building temples. If you want to follow the Lords commandment to go to his house on his day you are out of luck because the church won't let you.
@@birdlyword2 "you know you can adjust the speed, right?" I do not understand statements followed by "right" but yes, the speed can be adjusted. I have never utilized that feature and I have no idea what it does to voices. So if you double the speed, you get a rapid-fire discussion of LDS attendance statistics for only 15 minutes. Hooray for that.
As relative data between denominations, this is useful. But, if this was 2019 and 2020 data, it would reflect some of the covid lockdowns. If he had data in 2018 vs 2024 it would be even more insightful.
The church website states that there are 17,225,394 members and there are 31,490 congregations. Many congregations outside Utah are smaller 100-200 participants. If we guess an average congregation size of 200, that would suggest 6,298,000 active participants or about 36%.
Surprised you didn’t address what true “active believing” means not just for the LDS but other churches and faiths, to Catholics it may by a hand full of actual attendance and personal belief. Babysit it may be monthly but believing. So my contention is the LDS is really 40 to 50% by a more general measure much like other faiths who aren’t fixated on a weekly attendance.
only if they are older than 80 years old. Have never seen someone under the age of 80 who left their cell phone at home and even the mass majority of elderly have a cell phone in Sunday school because its replaced their physical scriptures
actual activity rate? drifted away? i told the hypocrites that they are inactive in the true righteous gospel commandments, and not me because I am not going. Your Laziness determination is just as unrighteous as those who profess that they would fellowship me if I came to their place of worship. When you do go, I can compare them to the Zoromites on their high towers from where they pray “oh God look how good we are and our righteousness is above the world because we are your people and those who we have cast out are not…” along that line. It’s an abomination; something I cannot participate in. Plus I am less lonely at home alone anyway where I remember my God. It is not like anyone comes to visit. ahh yea, the elders quorum presidency came by once to ask me if I needed help. I said “great you are here to help”. They replied “No we just came to ask if you needed help…”.
Don’t you just love data taken about church attendance? What is to stop enemies of religion and enemies of the United States also using this information ? Location , times , numbers Targets ? What could go wrong ?
I can just hear it now, "but Lord, my Bishop..." or, the people in my ward were...," or," I was offended by so and so," or by something about Church history...."
I can just hear it now, "but Lord, the Church never valued me like you do... was only there to take and never give" The Lord: Facts... come in my good and faithful servant for you have well differentiated the gospel from the church
Or maybe they attend their own church meetings because they believe in the LDS religion, founded by Joseph Smith but do not believe that Brigham Young is Joseph Smith's successor. So they have church at home.
God said He is a jealous God, (there is no room for paganism) Jesus said,”No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” The Lord said,"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them." Joshua said,”And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Our meetinghouses are dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ. Why do our Bishops are inviting a Santa Claus (a pagan figure) to our Christmas party. There is no room for paganism in our Church.
Church doctrine has changed drastically and for the worse! But forget all that and ask yourself what is the mechanism of your salvation? Christ is the baptism, Christ is the temple, Christ is the body, Christ is the baptism , Christ is the ordinance,Christ is the priesthood and authority all things apart from him, the vine is dead. This is the biggest fundamental change that happened in the church and why spiritual gifts declined into what it is today . We got away from the bom’s Doctrine and enter the law of the D&C, welcome to the religious hamster wheel of dead works. Christ has invited us to stop in our labors, to die and be born again take up our cross and enter into his rest his yoke his labor, if we do it any other way it’s dead. Let’s stop playing church come out of dead religion and enter into his body, he is the gate keeper not the lds the bom says he employs no servant there!
Data gathered through "Orwellian" methods wouldn't need to be debated in these comments if the church was less worried about appearances and more forthcoming with its data.
Regardless of whether or not the church published attendance numbers, there's still the issue of phone apps recording and selling user location data. That's happening regardless.
My husband is bedridden. We are so grateful that we can watch sacrament meeting on RUclips each week. We were touched by the spirit by several of the testimonies born today. It was an uplifting meeting. We are so grateful for our membership in the Church even though we are in a different situation now than we used to be. We are so grateful for the blessings that come to us by being members of the Church.
My wife also has health issues and we are thankful she can watch as well.
As a clerk for most of the last 20 years i can say it’s consistently around 40%.
That tracks with my experience as well. Consistently around a third or so show up every week.
It varies a lot from congregation to congregation. The lowest I've personally attended had over 1500 on the records with average attendance of around 120.
*for your congregation
@@dajifyis that South America?
@@davidrobinson1201 Australia. Very poor attendance in some Canadian congregations too. It varied a lot, some wards were much stronger than others. Overall from my experience 20-30% seems reasonable. I don't have much experience attending church in the US though
As a clerk, in a less active area of southern Utah County, I’ve been taking attendance for a little over a year now, and true, we average about 32% attendance.
My observation and preparation of reports is that 20-30% of members attending weekly seems correct. We over inflate the numbers in quarterly reports when we count attendance as at least once per quarter. The reality of this activity level is 20% of those attending hold and service fully in callings. Pareto applies everywhere here. When selecting members for callings there really aren't that many choices if you want someone who will be all in.
This corresponds real well with Return and Report which their data show 21% attendance.
Here’s the thing. I consider myself active as I go everyday I CAN go. I work every other Sunday as a nurse. I Zoom the meeting when i can’t go. We do have quite a few people in the medical field where I live too, who might be in the same or similar boat. Next year, when church starts earlier I will be able to attend weekly. So while I do not think this is a large chunk of members I do think it may answer for some.
I would say that you are for sure full time church goer.
Great report Connor. I run the broadcast for my ward. Looking at the stats shows that most people duck in and out constantly. Some are the housebound or just watching from the cry room (which I fully endorse), but...
Our viewership has dropped by more than half in three years. Christmas, Easter, etc., it picks up.
Point is that attendance, despite our combining wards that doubled our members, has held about the same over the last several years.
Being a hand on deck I can clearly see that people are losing interest in Church.
yup!!
I'm in a Ward in SoCal with 650 members. With guests, we are lucky to have 140- and that's counted 30 minutes into sacrament meeting for late comers! 21.5%
The cell phone data massively underestimates attendance. It assumes that everyone goes everywhere with their cell phones. I have a large number of very active friends and relatives that never take their cell phone to church and use their physical scriptures. Yet other friends and family completely power down their devices or put them in airplane mode before leaving for church. Heck, I even leave my cell phone at home much of the time I go to run errands, do shopping, or other tasks. I'm actually training myself to no longer need/want a device in my pocket.
Me too!
Me too!
Massively? Get real
It might underestimate it due to that, but remember the definition of actively attending was 2/3 of the time, which is fairly generous.
Massively appears to be correct. The trend lines are interesting though.
I rarely miss a Sunday - only if unavoidable. Taking Sacrament is the highlight of my week. I also attend the Temple frequently.
You are a virtuous person. We need more people like you
I was at the temple yesterday as we were sitting down for the endowment session, an old guy who was using a cane, moving slowly, his phone started playing some tune😂. I guess some people take their phones all the way.
I was a clerk for about ten years in our Orem ward. Sacrament attendance ranged between 75-95%. I'm aware that was unusually high. When I lived in California, sacrament attendance was 30-35%.
I can tell you that my ward in Lehi Utah has about 65-70% attendance each week. We have a huge ward and fill the chapel and cultural hall. It’s wonderful
I would be willing to bet if you took the total number of members on the roll and the average sacrament meeting attendance it would be closer to probably 40 to 50% in a strong ward like yours. There are probably more people on your records than you realize
@davidrobinson1201 on my mission(st Louis), the average activity never really got above 40%, my utah wards are like 60% because of the density of members being neighbors and being in more contact with each other. Many of the wards in my mission struggled at least a little getting constant Priesthood members. I bet money most wards are only 40% average fully active outside of utah.
@davidrobinson1201 I've been a clerk in a Herriman ward for year's and we have always been around 50%. Doesn't vary much
@@davidrobinson1201 my husband is in the bishopric so I do hear the numbers. We have been blessed in this area. I hope it continues
@shereewilkinson8549 I'll bet that's not all you hear...
Active non-member, I go every week :). The bishop actually made me chorister :)
I highly recommend weekly church for everyone, atheists included - I find the LDS church is my favorite.
In a previous ward I was in, there was a non-member husband of one of our members who came every week. He was called to serve on the Elder's Quorum missionary committee. Many members had no idea he wasn't a member. One time, the missionaries, who didn't know he wasn't a member, asked him to go on exchanges, which he agreed to.
@@WalterReade Yeah, me and the wife are non-members, but our two daughters got baptized.
We hang out with the missionaries on their p-days to teach them self-defense - some of them get pretty surprised to find out we're not actually members :)
That’s wonderful. I’m curious, why is our theology your favorite?
@@kristinrichmond8185 Two parts, really - one, mormons seem to be the most christian christians. JWs come to your door and tell you you're going to hell, LDS missionaries come to your door with a smile and a good attitude. I'm sure there might be a small church here and there that behaves even better than your average ward, but mormons have actually built a fairly scalable system that is, on average, higher performing than others.
The second, it's just such an American religion - so much of it is infused with echoes of the constitution (three people in the bishopric and other leadership settings, like the three branches of the US government), and the fact that you actually have votes for sustaining people (I know, mostly pro forma, but the symbolism is powerful), and of course the speakers each week are actually part of the laity rather than a "priest" class. I'm an unabashed patriot, and I love seeing the entire mormon culture infused with that kind of American flavor.
But most of all, I judge religions by how much they reduce resentment, and how much they increase gratitude. Mormons really do this the best. When "The Book of Mormon" musical came out, instead of getting all offended, the church bought a full page ad in the playbill. Being able to laugh and accept some of the most wicked insults you can possibly imagine, is incredibly impressive given that other religions will kill you if you draw a cartoon of their guy.
At this point, I don't take the scriptures literally, but I do take them metaphorically, so I find despite my unbelief, I share the same moral conclusions as the active members in my ward. Been going there for 6 years, and they still make me feel welcome :)
@@JereKrischelthis is awesome ❤
A lot of kids don't have cell phones, but they get counted in sacrament meeting :)
True. But the kids without cell phones are also not responding to the surveys that the cell phone data shows to be exaggerated.
I notice that our sacrament meetings are pretty regular with attendance, one thing i also notice is a huge percentage of people who just kind of hang out in the hallways and skip second hour all together. it just seems strange to me for members to get dressed up, drive to church and not really participate 🤔
they went to mcdonalds for lunch
A major flaw in the cell phone data approach is that many people, including myself until a few months ago, never take their phones to church. Even now, I put it on airplane mode to keep people from calling and interrupting. In my ward, the wifi will still work on airplane mode. There are many more like me out there. Others use ipads or other devices besides phones. This will skew the data down in a major way.
I think a significant portion of those not attending weekly might not believe in the church anymore, but maybe they are just slothful. If the church is really true though, and someone really understands that it is, I think they would do what it takes to attend weekly. I know I would.
I’m a member of the church, but I’m not attending regularly because I don’t think it’s true anymore, and the members who do believe in all of it don’t give space for those who are unsure. I don’t share my controversial convictions or disrupt meetings when I do attend. But when other members want to know what I’ve been doing and where I’ve been after I skip 3 weeks of church, it’s uncomfortable. When they target me with special “kindness”, it’s uncomfortable. I really just want to come and go as I please without being treated strangely, but as more and more of the socially-normal folks leave the church and staunch members become the majority, there’s no comfortable place for me to be. I’m still willing for my mind to be changed about the church, but I’m not going to a place during my free time where I’m treated like I’m broken because it isn’t uplifting.
What are you looking for to change your mind?
@ Is it fair to say a perspective I haven’t discovered yet? If I knew what it was exactly, I would have already researched it and there wouldn’t be a need for my mind to be changed.
More honesty about church history and less divisiveness with non-believers would be a good start to having meaningful conversations.
@ I get it. I have a hard time with judging church history when I didn’t live the moment. The Lord is trying to accomplish Celestial goals with a fallen world and it’s fallen inhabitants. Despite the Constitution and religious freedom, the Saints barely made it. If it hadn’t been for Quincy, Illinois Mormonism as we know it might have died. My disdain is that we’re infants in the Gospel, therefore we get milk at church rather than meat. I know I’m rambling and probably don’t make sense but I wish you success in your search. My latest blessing is serving in the library instead of going to priesthood…I count my blessings.
The world out there, the internet info, and many other sources of info could definitely shake anyone’s faith is the restored gospel. What I do when confronted with doubts is to read and remember the Book of Mormon. Every time I read it, I know it is the word of God and I can’t deny it. It is the cornerstone of the church! Many good wishes for you on your journey.
@ Exactly! The Book of Mormon is key.
About half of the Church membership number is children, who probably don't have phones, and some people don't bring their phones to church.
Also, as the church changes doctrine and becomes more woke, I become less interested. I didn't dedicate everything to the church because it was a cool social club, I did it because it was true. Because certain truths were immutable, as the church changes those things to fit in more with the world, they lose the interest of those who went because it was true!
The doctrine has not become more woke. You're allowing politics to color your faith.
Great comment.
I'll add as things in our history are also uncovered.
I keep the Classical 89 station owned by BYU on at work. The Tuesday devotionals have become progressively more and more DEI rants and less and less doctrinal.
@@nateryan3610Is the doctrine the same as in 2008? 1980? 1970?
I agree that the church culture has changed and needs fixing but the doctrine is not changed. Years ago I had to decide that the church doctrine and church culture are two different things. However I would say that the culture is really stifling me lately but I'll hold to the doctrine. Cant really expect octogenarians to have their finger on the pulse of whats really happening. I wish we had some apostles in their 30s and 40s....but maybe they would actually push out most members if they really went after it all. I think Ezra Taft Benson today would have pushed out more than half the members. Just attacking family destroying Marxist feminism thats deep within the church membership would crush most members
Just spent the last 10 min doing some quick counts on my ward directory in Church Tools. I am not in a leadership position but I do know the ward fairly well and know whom I see and whom I don’t see (just in the spirit of knowing the ward, not tracking them). I came up with 69% I see 3 and 4 times a month. Basic Bountiful Utah Ward where we all seem to be putting our pants on one leg at a time like everyone else.
I think the trend data is good but the percentages are really low.
I am a ward clerk and count attendance weekly. Our ward gets about 37 to 42% of members on the rolls depending on the month.
I was exec secretary in my ward ini AZ and we get about 70% attendance on any given week but I would say our active membership is around 75-80%. We are an exception for sure though because I know in the mission field and my ward growing up are all closer to that 30-40%. But of the many inactive, a good percentage probably don't "self identify" as LDS. Most of the people who don't attend in my current ward have never attended and seem to be people who were baptized as children but never attended as adults. One family I'm aware of actually identifies as Catholic now but they're still on our records.
There's a disconnect in the data for me. We count sacrament meeting attendance every week. At least for the 20 years or so that I've payed attenention (across a few different wards in three different states), sacrament meeting attendance has consistently been about 1/3 of the membership rolls, not the 15% as claimed by the cell phone analysis. There are two possible reasons: (1) attendance is much lower in high LDS population states (California, Utah, etc.) to bring down the average, or (2) there is a flaw in the cell phone analysis.
Now imagine:
1. Being single
2. Not living in UT/ AZ/ NV (most other states have very weak singles wards)
3. Being over the age of 25
4. All coupled with these low attendance numbers
Now you know why we are losing so many singles. Marriage is the greatest predictor of activity and future Lds growth . We are losing singles very quickly and therefore losing Lds family formation and offspring . It's a massive issue and I have thoughts on this but the church culture is so narrow minded, gynocentric and myopic that it falls on deaf ears.
whogivesacrapppp??
Well, I know of several wonderful people of both genders who fit the above 4 criteria - and I care. I don't have easy answers, except "Come, Lord Jesus, Come." I know He will return and dry up tears - including yours ruckin3.
@MrBillmechanic your response is a fantastic illustration of the problem.
@@birdlyword2 and so is the mormon church culture
@@MrBillmechanic because it's related to activity rates dropping. But thanks for your kind support of the youth . You're a real champ!
I live in Las Vegas, NV. I go to casinos to attend movies, and occasionally restaurants. I don't go to gamble.
I've seen my ward's attendance numbers out here in northern Georgia, and before 2020 it was regularly around 50%-55% each week. In 2020 and half of 2021 we had church at home, but after everyone returned to in-person church attendance, it has stayed consistently around 30%-35% attendance each week.
I guess a lot of people feel as I do: we've had enough of the lies, and we're choosing to follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible and Book of Mormon, which is mutually exclusive to following the "prophet". I still attend every now and then, because I have a lot of friends there, and the church does still teach some truths. But thanks to Nelson's Blunder, I've gone down the rabbit hole and found that not only is the church not following the doctrines taught in the Book of Mormon, it has not been led by Jesus Christ since Joseph and Hyrum were murdered by John Taylor and Willard Richards, if not before then.
to which of nelson's numerous blunders do you refer? "mutually exclusive" -----right on !!
Clerk headcount and Sunday school rolls will be more precise. It makes sense that reported attendance will be higher than actual, but I wouldn't be surprised if cell phone data systematically undercounts.
This may be. But I also think mileage will vary from ward to ward and stake to stake. I know for certain that there is no small number of wards that overstate attendance for purposes of getting a higher budget.
I've never taken my cell phone or tablet to church. I'm not the only one in my ward who leaves it behind.
Bless you. I find it so distracting with all the phones at church. Visiting a ward, I sat behind the Bishop's wife and she was texting her son during the Sacrament song, prayer and service. (yes I peeked to see if she would turn it off). So the rest of the meeting was wondering if she would turn in off. I see parents on their dang phones when their children are wanting their attention. I really try - but the Spirit leaves the room. Teenagers - heads down on looking online. The intensity is an indication that they are not looking at anything related to church. I was in a session at the Temple and an older man's phone rang and he answered it and said "I'm in the middle of a session right now and can't talk". It's like a wall fell down and the worldly aspect of life flowed right into the room. I almost give up for ever feeling the Spirit at church on a regular basis.
@GAILandROD I see the same things at church that's why I refuse to bring it. I see game playing and texting during sacrament as well, and it's the fathers and mothers not just teenagers! Disrespectful behavior rules the day.
I think that surveyor has done a great job considering just the cell phone data. Thanks for this!
I've been to a lot of casinos, but for eating or merely staying in their lodging.
It is. That’s why I am being told to sue. But I don’t want to sue my church for what is a lack of education and compliance by one bishop.
Sue for what???
"That’s why I am being told to sue."
So what's the *tort* or the offense? If it isn't in the law books, it does not exist.
How is your lack of education their fault?
What about virtual attendance? Do you have any data on that? In 2020 when home church came into play, many have continued zooming church most or part of the time. Since you were using location data, this probably wasn't included.
Do you have any data on Temple attendance? This would be a good musing topic.
The cell phone data was from April 2019 to Feb 2020, so before virtual was really a thing. But, if the analysis was re-done, it would have to try to account for it. (At least in our ward, virtual attendance accounts for < 5% of total attendance.)
@@WalterReade Correct. This study was pre-COVID. Anecdotal evidence suggests that church membership among various faiths (see AP's article on "The Nones" or Pew Research) has decreased following the pandemic, so a new study would need to be performed.
I know lots of people who watch at home every week be side of health/mobility issues. Also not everyone brings their phones, especially elderly.
So the membership has learned to lie as well as the leadership. I’m still waiting for all these wonderful things to fall in my lap for all the service and obedience, for the mission and countless things I was told would pay off. Truth is the church isn’t losing members, the members are losing the church with its lurch to the left.
Sorry, but you sound like a bitter old man. Missions are super beneficial, you look at the young men that actually served honorably and the way that they compare to other men of their same age and you can’t tell me that’s not true.
@@WyoCutlass71 So why are more than a third of them swiftly leaving the church after they get back from their missions now?
@ I think you are missing my point. I am not saying that every return missionary stays active. The majority of my companions and mission friends have fallen away, and I served from 2012-2014, so there has been 10 years since my time in the mission field. I was never promised riches or anything of that nature.
But we are taught that every blessing is Heaven is tied to obedience.
Let’s just look at some of the basic things that I am speaking about that are directly tied to blessings of missionary service.
There was a study done by the University of Tennessee about how RMs adapted to coming to college level athletics and it points out how they were able to:
Put things into perspective.
Being more mentally resilient
Make effective goals
Greater Perseverance in trials
Learn new skills and apply those that were used on a mission.
These are all skills and attributes that are directly linked to time served as a missionary. I served in Scotland and Ireland, where success rates were low in terms of baptisms. We also had the highest rates of depression of any mission in the world at the time, but every single person I served with learned something about being selfless, and putting yourself outside your comfort zone. These are blessings that came from missions.
Not all came to know their Savior, but. I can tell you that I learned all these skills and what it meant to walk with Christ. The OP sounds like one of those missionaries who thought just because he went out, he was entitled to the greatest of all blessings, and from my experience, there lower level blessings for those that serve, greater blessings for those that serve diligently, and the greatest blessings for those who serve with love of Christ.
@ my comment must have been deleted. You are missing my point. There are definitely blessings that come to the lives of return Missionaries, that may not be activity in the church. The OP makes it sound like every return missionary was promised riches, which was never part of the job description I got from my mission president
@@mormoncivilwar6189 That has always been the case with Return Missionaries. Hell two years after getting home I was drifting.
I attended 100% of the time for almost 50 years until 2 years ago. Left and haven't been back. Highly recommend it.
Why lose hope?
Not surprised by this. Usually our ward has way fewer people attending that I know are in the ward, but this has been true my whole life and in every ward I've been in. I don't think there is necessarily a clear trend from my anecdotal observations. What I do know is youth these days are far better with temple attendance than my generation ever was. I know most of the youth in our ward and stake regular go to the temple on their own without parents even suggesting or pushing.
quebec canada lds wards are at 20% presence.
odd ... you'd think the lsd wards would be packed!
@@TheGreatDadoo no sir! politics,backstabing, dishonesty , power trip from the headship..biggest deception in my life to stand with these people.
@@Schtroumpsolis hey, I'm right there with ya, bro... I was joking and making reference to your typo of "lsd" instead of "lds"
I did what Connor suggested and looked at our ward’s average sacrament attendance has been. We are consistently between 67% and 70% currently and dating back to the same timeframe of the cell phone data set Connor is citing.
Not sure what that is telling me other than our counting efforts each Sunday in our local ward more closely aligns with self-reported polling data than the cell phone data.
What about the bulk of children in the Church? A lot of them are too you to or do not carry cell phones. So if you are going to use the full population of the US you need to adjust for the children which would increase our attendance up from 15%. I just listened to the full podcast and see that you did bring this up.
The research paper itself address the fact, as well as people turning off their cell phones, switching their cell phones, leaving the country, and not allowing location-tracking. Read the paper itself rather than someone's review of the paper.
This statistics shown by this paper are also well-supported by the census data of various countries that all show that people who self-report as members are well-below the numbers reported by the church.
It's roughly 20-25%, so 3.5 to 4.5 m, not 18
But when you factor in the 'Address Unknown' members who do not appear on ward lists that knocks it down to 3 million or less.
over claiming attendance and over claiming goodness is correlating
We have 8:30am church this year, we definitely miss once a month every month this year, sometimes twice, thats more rare, maybe three months this year we’ve missed twice. I just can’t get us there by myself with three little kids. Doing my best. But that’s the honest truth. Can’t wait til we get a later time this next year. 😮💨
9:30 is a struggle for me. And I live 500 feet from our building.
We generally encourage involvement, so bringing phones to follow along in the scriptures, talks, and so forth, might explain why...
Thanks for the video Connor
pre covid we were at 35-40%; post covid 25-30%.
from what i've seen and discussed with others, in the U.S., this is where we're at with only about a +/- 3% variation from ward to ward
ive been involved in the stake unit statistics since 2015
The data undercounts children, many who don't have cell phones, and those who attend church virtually as some wards still allow that. Cell phone data can only take you so far.
Also, the seniors having services in small branches in senior livings and assisted livings.
I thinks it’s correct for the study to exclude children to some extent, since children don’t necessarily choose to go and I predict many will leave based on how the church is going. Not saying that’s a good thing; it’s an unfortunate, realistic projection.
@steel6322 but that isn't the point of the survey when taken as a percentage of total membership. If the survey were taking only adult membership, I'd find it more reliable.
Though having worked in senior and assisted living, I doubt the in house branches of worship are counted in these numbers as well.
The church is trying to straddle both sides of the line. They need to take a bold stand and speak out against the wokeness. But the way things are going, so many (myself included) don't feel like the church has anything to offer that they can't get at home.
You can't get temple ordinances in the home. You can't gather Zion from your home. You missed out on the greatest assignments of His children, in the latter days.
I don’t believe the temple is necessary. I believe Jesus when he says we are the temple of the Lord. I also believe Jesus when He says he does nothing in secret. There is no revelation outlining the endowment. I believe Brigham Young took the Masonic rituals and religified them to suit his own purposes. I realize this is all in contrast to Brighamite dogma, but I believe what I’m saying is true.
@OmahaAreaLoya well of course, you don't.
You only have to go through the temple once in your life.@@EKowallis
@@OmahaAreaLoya What you say is truth.
There is a huge flaw in this data. You only have to be 8 to be a member which inflates the overall membership number, many of the youth don’t have phones or wouldn’t be allowed to bring them to church, therefore this would throw off the percentage by a large margin. I don’t think these numbers are reliable. Certainly not 70 percent but definitely not as low as 15 percent. My guess would be somewhere in between those two numbers.
8:30am or 9am Church for families with young children is ridiculous. Many good & inspired adjustments have already been made & implemented. Move that back to 10am/11am for familes with young children. This isn't Hard.
You didn't mention that we instead of carrying books we choose to use the church scriptures online.
2019-2020 was during Covid. We were doing home church most of that time. That’s going to be anomalous data.
i served in utah in 2013-2015
just from my own expirience of talking to people on street and door to door it was half lds and half non lds ...and half of the lds were not active so i wouldnt expect it to be better now then it was then
My phone is on airplane mode ALL the time unless I am using it. Does this study include children who don’t carry cell phones? Many members work in the armed forces, medical field or firefighters and law enforcement. These have to work on the sabbath. The church has its own counting system as you know. Unfortunately I believe that most wards have less than 50% activity. The Church has the best statistics.
Final question is a good one! Why don't people go to church much?
Like you said, different reasons for different people but for me it's simple:
The juice ain't worth the squeeze. Simple as that.
When I was young, after BYU and my mission, the promise of a great life as a reward for obedience and faithfulness was appealing. As time went by and I served and paid, prayed and obeyed my expectations relative to sacrifice (the squeeze) I found disappointing, to say the least. As I aged I found the promise of "you get nothing in this life but you get to go to heaven in the end for your goodness and sacrifice" to be the only "real" promise the church offers. Is that even real? Seems cultish. As a young, poor man I was uncared for by the church or by the YSA women in the church who were considered of high SMV. The church was always there to take from me but never contributed to my welfare ... just the promised I'd go to heaven. Seemed *LAZY* to me! ... and unrighteous
Now I'm an old man with kids and I'm wealthy (self made! no thanks for family, friends or the church) and the LDS Church, who was never there for me in the past, is wanting to "be there for me and my kids" in the future ... but this pseudo "fellowship" feels like an expensive, insincere scam, at this point. I mean, I'd LOVE to find family and love in the church - I'd LOVE to give all my millions in trade for love and fellowship, meaning and purpose ... but, alas, the LDS Church does not care about me and never has. It does not sacrifice for me, my wife, my kids ... never has. It's a one-way-street and that makes me sad because the Church of JESUS (the) Christ should not be a parasite - yet, it is.
I'm sad I'm inactive because I love the BofM and I love the gospel but activity in the LDS Church is a true act of masochism ... I don't know about other people who want to "sin" or are "lazy" or "selfish" but for me any my family it's like squeezing a turnip trying to harvest juice. The juice just ain't worth the squeeze. Makes me sad because I believe the gospel is true - but the church is a one-way-street of torture and while I go to church maybe 10 times a year and watch conference every 6 months, my wife and young kids absolutely hate going or watching. They say it's boring and "fake". When the GA's tell us they love us it make me cringe and makes my wife roll her eyes because to me it's a grift and to my wife it's just a lie as we both know they don't love us or our kids or even know us. But I'm the man, the daddy, the patriarch and the breadwinner and I'm expected to give millions of dollars to the church on top of the rest of it so for me, getting past the "boring and fake" part and finding personal righteousness and sanctification through the monotony compounded with the fact I'm voiceless and powerless to actually be seen and still expected to pay 10% is ludicrous.
I wish my family and me were loved by a church and I fear the future because of the obvious failings of the LDS Church for me and my family... but what can I do? Like the church has told me for decades, I am nobody and completely unimportant. And maybe that's true. But if I'm so powerless and unimportant then I'll find another place to spend my time and money. I know where I'm wanted and where I'm not wanted and the LDS Church let's me know, in the end, after all the fake "ward family" BS that neither I nor my family is valued there. And it's taken me decades to realize the most important rule in life is to only go where you are valued!
Do you care about, or love others in the ward?
@@emh7956 Nice deflection. The answer is, probably not? I mean, I used to in my teens, twenties and thirties but by the time I got into my 50's it started seeming like a BLATENT one-way-street. I mean, it always seemd like a one-way-street but, like a donkey chasing a carrot, the "law of sacrifice" to a heroic and rewarding end made it all seem worth it! But, alas, like a hot, materialistic girlfriend, there is no end to the demands and there is no gratitude either.
I became wealthy in my late 30's and notices the church member, the girls in the church and the leaders in the church (who ignored and took advantage of me in my youthful poverty) were all flattering me in my 40's and 50's and very welcoming in a fake way the continued to not benefit me in any real way. I'd ask leaders "where were you when I came home from my mission and was homeless for 4 years and hungry?" They'd always tell me, "Oh my goodness! You were wronged, David, and if I were your leader then I'd have helped you and done things much differently! ... believe me!!! Now... ready to pay your tithing? I'll give you a temple recommend if you dooooooo!!!"
So, your deflection is invalid. Why do we love the Lord? Because HE LOVED US FIRST! Why do we love the Lord's church? Because it loves us first. The LDS Church never loved me, my wife, or my family. The LDS people never even pretended to love me until I became self-made and wealthy. These are simple facts. How can the LDS Church expect my love when it did not take the first step? In fact, in my life, I took the first step for miles and miles, decade after decade waiting for my unrequited love to be returned and awaiting my rewards in this and the next life. My non-LDS wife and kids (oldest is 15) have never felt love coming from the ward and, in the past, have taken them several times. I will not force them ... they simply do not feel valued there. And... I know just how they feel.
So, deflection aside, your question has no basis, my friend. I do not dislike or hate the people in my ward ... but I do not love them like I have in the past. I am not a masochist. Sorry, your pivot didn't work, bro.
Man, the pain in this is palpable! I mean it is real. Anyone reading this can feel that you want or wanted it to be real. It is fascinating that you still attend 10 times a year and listen to conference even given what you have to say about it all. Life is definitely messy and so is the church. In my case, I can't get past the knowing that the Father and Son appeared to Joseph Smith personally, then sent Moroni, then Peter, James and John and so much more after that. I think we will all be amazed in the day when all things are made known to us as plain as day, when the knowledge of God covers the earth as the oceans do, when we no longer "look through the glass darkly". I think we will see that this was indeed the promised restoration but that it was also allowed to be entrenched in the messiness of the human experience. All of it will make sense. He will "wipe away all the tears" and we will understand the whys. I commend you for your heart, apparently you want it to be real but it's obvious you have really felt abandoned and let down. Paul referred to himself as a prisoner of Christ. When multitudes of people started abandoning Christ due to the hard doctrine he began teaching, he turned to his disciples and asked "will you leave me too?" with Peter exclaiming "to whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life". I feel a sense of this in your words, that it is hard to fully let go. The doctrine of Christ breaths life into our existence, I hope you can cling to that. If the church is corrupted (it happened to the Nephites multiple times), I hope you will be part of the solution from within. Attend, love, have no expectations, look towards others and watch the miracle unfold before your eyes. Love you brother.
@@TheGreatDadooread 3rd nephi 16:10. There is a prophesied partial apostasy throughout scripture and the early days of the church. It is the Lords church thus it His to correct. The church does not follow scriptural tithing and it ignores half of the scriptures. The LDS people have severe chosen people syndrome,just like ancient Israel and the Jews later. We have stepped away. The church cant seem to figure out what it wants to be. Investment firm, pride flags on Byu, pride celebration at conferenc center, 2021 womens conference pushing homo, uchtdorfs 2000 donation to biden, a paid "unpaid" clergy, for every 1 dollar of international charity, 5 is spent on membership support, and 99 spent on investments. The list goes on. Changing temple covenants to embrace feminism, emasculation of men. Isaiah 3:12 warns of it. Now the sisters apparently have access ti priesthood power by merely existing. The SEC ruled in the Ensign peak investment scandal that the 1st pres and the presiding bishopric knowingly violated the law, thus the 5 million dollar fine. No disciplinary court. You or i do that, well....
@@davidrobinson1201 thank you for your beautiful, eloquent and insightful comment. i cannot have no expectations and i will not love unconditionally ... these ideas are tools of Satan disguised as Christianity. I have expectations and conditions ... just as God does for us. I hope my expectations and conditions fall in line with God's reason and system of accounting... I think they do, but hey, even Kim Kardashian thinks her lamps are full of oil... so who is to say what is true?
I don’t take my phone to church. Casinos have hotels in LV and really good buffets.
I didn't quite follow the methodology, so I found and read the full paper. The data sample was 2.1 mil cell phones. They followed which church buildings (if any) those cell phones visited to determine their religion. Phones that regularly visited LDS buidings were 0.29% of the 2.1 mil; 0.29% of 330 mil US population = 1 mil. And, 1 mil / 6.9 mil US LDS members = roughly 15%. The non-phone owning children of those in the 2 mil phone sample are already implicitly included in the 15% because the 0.29% is generalized to the entire US population. However, since LDS families have more children than average,, it's probably undercalling it a little. Either way, 15% just seems too low for the US . Based on my experience in the church, inside-Utah is about 60%+ and outside Utah is about 30%. I noticed that the study author is also an LDS bishop, so it would be interesting to bounce this perceived discrepancy off him.
For myself, I don't attend church meetings because I feel that I am not good enough to be around those LDS members and those Local Church Leaders.
Oh, the irony. If you only knew...
The very fact that you feel that way means that you *are* good enough. And if anyone at church (LDS or any other) treats you like you aren't, then that's their problem, not yours, and they need to work that out with God.
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, *for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."*
- Jesus, Matthew 5: 11-12
We have youth activities? When?
saudacoes do brasil
Possible skewing of casino data would be Las Vegas LDS population going to the movies at Red Rock Casino, Aliante etc
or the buffets... I live here in Vegas and have for decades and have never gambled but me and my family go to casinos all the time for shopping, food and more (like movies)
I found that stat suspect as well. I've been to a number of casinosm but it was always when I was walking through a hotel lobby while at a conference in Vegas. I was at a tech conference in Vegas this past April, and probably "visited" a half dozen casinos walking around the strip, getting dinner, etc.
Does your math account for people like me who don't take their phone to church?
edit: I see you address that around the 20 minute mark
The data seems correct anecdotally. Pre-covid, attendance was about 50-55%. Post-covid, its been half that, about 25-30%. Or roughly what the cellphone data discussed was showing.
The cell phone data was pre-covid.
I've seen this study referenced elsewhere and I still don't understand how they know what religion belongs to a certain cell phone? As far as surveys go, I would expect that many inactive LDS (or any church for that matter) would also not identify as LDS since they don't attend but never bothered to take their name off the membership records. In addition, as you say, those who do identify probably exaggerate their attendance. So I can see how that would skew the numbers in favor of better attendance. The LDS church counts attendance of sacrament meetings every week and in my experience, it has hovered around 40% of all members on the record, which is close to the cell phone data.
If a cell phone spends time at a church location, it's inferred the phone belongs to someone who attends that church.
@@WalterReade Total attendance I can see. It's calculating that attendance against total membership for a percentage where I don't see how cell phone data gets you there.
@@raynelson6575 The church publishes its total US membership number (currently 6,868,793). So it's "number of phones in an LDS church every week" divided by the church's published numbers. (To your point, cell phones where not used to calculate the total.)
Cool data, thanks!
You’re not accounting for how much cheaper casino hotels are! Never gambled in my life but the cell phone would have data showing me there. And Nevada, the hub of casinos is full of us
A photo taken during a meeting would be more accurate. people can lie!
What church do you attend?
20:49 - I'd wager that reason LDS are missing the "Never" and "Almost never" categories for bring a phone to church is two reasons: (1) LDS have a relative lower median age compared to other religious groups, but more importantly (2) we use our Gospel Library app for hymns, lessons, scriptures, etc. during church.
Why are they taking theses polls?
Church of 50%er’s! Half the membership attends regularly and out of that 50%, only half of them have callings etc, and 15-20% of them do the bulk of it, and some of them are good people, some are the over achievers, some are campaigning for the corporate position (stake leadership). There is a % of good , normal everyday people that understand the world and how not to be offensive by the mere culture of the church. And I could keep going!
In a short time, the True Restored Temple Covenants will be established as: Sabbath, Tithe, Fast, Chastity, and Consecration…
I'd like to go back but don't feel right about it.
Follow that feeling.
A pagan church. Many gods????
Dataset taken during COVID right, so of course it’s low….
I am recovering from a traumatic head injury and developed seizures. I have a seizure dog and my bishop asked me to not come to church with it. They bring me the sacrament at home. Does my desire to attend count even though I have been asked not to? Yes I know that violates ADA guidelines and my lawyers at Kirton and McKonkie sent me the ADA’s contact info so I could have them sue the church on my behalf. I do t want to sue the church. I want there to be better training for bishops. This is not an emotional support dog. This is a verified seizure dog who has saved my life multiple times. My bishop thinks it is irreverent to bring “pets” to church. I don’t want to make a scene or be where I am not welcome. How would you handle the situation Conner?
I have been told if I do t sue, policy and training g in the church do not change.
I think it's actually illegal for the Bishop to say not to bring it to church. Service dogs are different from emotional support dogs.
How are your attorneys the same as the church attorneys?
@@EKowallis that's bullshit ... most "emotion support animals" are unlicensed and do not qualify for public spaces but even if they were they are not allowed in private spaces without permission of the owner - and LDS Churches are private spaces are you are NOT the owner! WAKE UP!
@TheGreatDadoo Actually Churches are exempt, but it they can make accommodations in the temple, they can certainly make accommodations at church. Secondly, emotional support animals are NOT the same as a service dog. You didn't read my comment.
@@EKowallis neither can go on private property without permission from the owner. PERIOD! Stop being a Marxist
Love that you mentioned, Jiu-jitsu.
I don't agree with you 100%, but I respect your position
Pioneer corridor...
The house of prayer means the temple, not a meetinghouse.
The early saints didn't build meetinghouses except temporarily while they were building temples.
If you want to follow the Lords commandment to go to his house on his day you are out of luck because the church won't let you.
29 minutes discussing LDS attendance rates. I took a quick look at the transcript (I can read faster than this man talks).
@thomasmaughan4798 you know you can adjust the speed, right?
@@birdlyword2 "you know you can adjust the speed, right?"
I do not understand statements followed by "right" but yes, the speed can be adjusted. I have never utilized that feature and I have no idea what it does to voices. So if you double the speed, you get a rapid-fire discussion of LDS attendance statistics for only 15 minutes. Hooray for that.
As relative data between denominations, this is useful. But, if this was 2019 and 2020 data, it would reflect some of the covid lockdowns. If he had data in 2018 vs 2024 it would be even more insightful.
The church website states that there are 17,225,394 members and there are 31,490 congregations.
Many congregations outside Utah are smaller 100-200 participants.
If we guess an average congregation size of 200, that would suggest 6,298,000 active participants or about 36%.
Surprised you didn’t address what true “active believing” means not just for the LDS but other churches and faiths, to Catholics it may by a hand full of actual attendance and personal belief. Babysit it may be monthly but believing. So my contention is the LDS is really 40 to 50% by a more general measure much like other faiths who aren’t fixated on a weekly attendance.
Wouldn't a lot of people leave their cell phones home?
I would guess the number is statistically insignificant.
Are children statistically insignificant? Not in our faith.
No why would you think they would?
only if they are older than 80 years old. Have never seen someone under the age of 80 who left their cell phone at home and even the mass majority of elderly have a cell phone in Sunday school because its replaced their physical scriptures
I leave my phone home, that is my excuse.
actual activity rate? drifted away? i told the hypocrites that they are inactive in the true righteous gospel commandments, and not me because I am not going. Your Laziness determination is just as unrighteous as those who profess that they would fellowship me if I came to their place of worship. When you do go, I can compare them to the Zoromites on their high towers from where they pray “oh God look how good we are and our righteousness is above the world because we are your people and those who we have cast out are not…” along that line. It’s an abomination; something I cannot participate in. Plus I am less lonely at home alone anyway where I remember my God. It is not like anyone comes to visit. ahh yea, the elders quorum presidency came by once to ask me if I needed help. I said “great you are here to help”. They replied “No we just came to ask if you needed help…”.
Don’t you just love data taken about church attendance? What is to stop enemies of religion and enemies of the United States also using this information ? Location , times , numbers Targets ? What could go wrong ?
The gospel is true. The church is supposed to adhere to the gospel. But it is definitely wandering
Has been for roughly 180 years...
@@jasonsellers56 Believe what you want just send in the 10 percent...
So most people don't consider themselves mormon anymore? or didn't answer? maybe the inactive didn't respond?
I can just hear it now, "but Lord, my Bishop..." or, the people in my ward were...," or," I was offended by so and so," or by something about Church history...."
I can just hear it now, "but Lord, the Church never valued me like you do... was only there to take and never give"
The Lord: Facts... come in my good and faithful servant for you have well differentiated the gospel from the church
THE PHOTO WAS TAKEN DURING THE COVID PANDEMIC! 😅😅😅😅
Or maybe they attend their own church meetings because they believe in the LDS religion, founded by Joseph Smith but do not believe that Brigham Young is Joseph Smith's successor. So they have church at home.
profound comment
We are on the same page!
God said He is a jealous God, (there is no room for paganism) Jesus said,”No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
The Lord said,"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."
Joshua said,”And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Our meetinghouses are dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why do our Bishops are inviting a Santa Claus (a pagan figure) to our Christmas party. There is no room for paganism in our Church.
The Mormon church is pagan by definition. They teach their members they can become gods,,,
Meetings ar4 boring
Y'all are weird. The church is true and teaches true doctrin. Try and find something else to put your energy into.
Not according to the Bible...
Please stop saying, “musing”. It just sounds very stuffy. Very annoying.
LOL it’s the name of this podcast - Sunday Musings
Sunday isn't the Sabbath...
Church doctrine has changed drastically and for the worse! But forget all that and ask yourself what is the mechanism of your salvation? Christ is the baptism, Christ is the temple, Christ is the body, Christ is the baptism , Christ is the ordinance,Christ is the priesthood and authority all things apart from him, the vine is dead. This is the biggest fundamental change that happened in the church and why spiritual gifts declined into what it is today . We got away from the bom’s Doctrine and enter the law of the D&C, welcome to the religious hamster wheel of dead works. Christ has invited us to stop in our labors, to die and be born again take up our cross and enter into his rest his yoke his labor, if we do it any other way it’s dead. Let’s stop playing church come out of dead religion and enter into his body, he is the gate keeper not the lds the bom says he employs no servant there!
Data gathered through "Orwellian" methods wouldn't need to be debated in these comments if the church was less worried about appearances and more forthcoming with its data.
Regardless of whether or not the church published attendance numbers, there's still the issue of phone apps recording and selling user location data. That's happening regardless.
Oh, good grief!! Another 'Mormon' attendance video. What's the point?? 😂
Mormons need to live in reality.