Anti-Zionism Is Antisemitism: A Conversation with Michal Cotler-Wunsh (Episode
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2024
- Sam Harris speaks with Michal Cotler-Wunsh about the global rise of antisemitism. They discuss the bias against Israel at the United Nations, the nature of double standards, the precedent set by Israel in its conduct in the war in Gaza, the shapeshifting quality of antisemitism, anti-Zionism as the newest strain of Jew hatred, the “Zionism is racism” resolution at the U.N., the lie that Israel is an apartheid state, the notion that Israel is perpetrating a “genocide” against the Palestinians, the Marxist oppressed-oppressor narrative, the false moral equivalence between the atrocities committed by Hamas and the deaths of noncombatants in Gaza, the failure of the social justice movement to respond appropriately to events in Israel, what universities should have done after October 7th, reclaiming the meanings of words, extremism vs civilization, and other topics.
Michal Cotler-Wunsh is Israel’s Special Envoy for Combating Antisemitism. She is a prominent public speaker, author, researcher, and independent policy and strategy advisor on intersecting issues of antisemitism, law, human rights, and Zionism. Michal was a member of Israel’s 23rd Knesset, where she chaired the Addictions Committee & Subcommittee for Israel-Diaspora Relations, was a member of the Foreign Affairs & Security, Constitution, and Law & Justice committees, and co-founded the Interparliamentary Task Force to Combat Online Antisemitism. Michal is a Trustee in the Rabbi Sacks Legacy.
Twitter: @cotlerwunsh
July 2, 2024
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Free Palestine from Hamas and Islamic fanaticism 🙏🏾
Free Palestine from ISLAM!!!
What Islamic fanaticism?? When Islam took over Palestine they had to invite the jews back because the crusader Christians kicked them out. Same story in Spain. The Christians did the holocaust not Muslims. Jews lived in Ottoman Palestine for decades even centuries. And most or all the stories of Oct 7th turned out to be fake, it wasn't an antisemitic attack, it was a military operation. So what Islamic fanaticism?? Islam has a better history with jews than Christianity
Free Israel from the Talmud and hatred of Jesus.
Lol thats like trying to unscramble an egg.
Palestinians ARE hamas.
Islam IS extremism when adhered to
Free it with what? Jewish fundamentalism and supremacy?
Just here to honor the memory of Vivian Silver (who Michal erroneously referred to as Lillian multiple times), a peace activist who is from my hometown in Canada. May her memory be a blessing.
She was an idiot and died because of her delusions. It is horrible, and we should blame our education facilities and media.
Imagine being the Israel's envoy for anti semitism, and I thought I had a stressful job 😂
Must keep him busy, changing definitions and finding victimhood niches in every corner.
@@FutureDeadGuy007 if you'd actually watched the podcast you'd know it was "Her" ya clown
@FutureDeadGuy007 No need to look for: anti-Semites blame the Jews for all the sins of the world.
@@Sharetheroad3333
She actually seems to be AGAINST antisemitism.
1:27:04 Actually, I haven't seen a single news outlet showing the evidence of what happened on 10/7. I've only seen claims and counterclaims. Perhaps this censorship is part of why so many people are supporting Hamas. It's understandable that some sites may not want to host such gruesome content (or may be prevented by law in some cases), but it would be useful if there were a commonly-known uncensored source walking people through the details of what happened.
People aren’t “supporting Hamas” they are quite understandably upset about the abhorrent actions of Israel.
If you haven't seen the footage you simply haven't been paying attention. It's out there, it's undisputed by both Israel and Palestinians and openly bragged about by Hamas and Palestinians.
Thank you and gods bless you for Michal Cotler-Wunsh clear, concise and passionate words in support of civilization - obvious to some of us, and apparently not to some others. I just listened to this a second time, and it affected me even more, as well as left me flabbergasted as to the world's reaction to 10-7. It is heart-breaking to have learned about the Holocaust as a child and to be carrying around this ideal of civilization and what civilized people behave like, and then see the reaction to the world to the Hamas invasion of Israel, and to realize the full extent of the hate and dysfuntion of Palestinian society, and what seems like the impossibility to fix it because it is so vicious and closed off to reason and life.
What caught my ear particularly in this second listen was Michal Cotler-Wunsh's pointing out of the "civilized" world's reaction to Russia's invasion of Ukraine compared with Gaza's orgy of hate, murder, rape, torture with genocideal intent - pure ISIS-like barbarism. I can't believe I live in such a world.
I’m a young, left leaning college student in America. By all of those descriptors you would assume that I am in full support of Palestine and Hamas. But after 10-7 I was utterly horrified to find the level of open hatred for Jews around the world by people and countries that I would’ve previously never suspected to be openly racist. College students at the greatest universities in America have somehow been duped into believing that they are fighting for the “oppressed.” And that’s the weirdest part of all of it to me. In 2024, if you want to do something horrific, criminal, and unethical, and get away with it, it’s as easy as just saying “I’m fighting back against my oppressor!” and all will be forgiven. I’m gay, and I could easily march around trying to chastise people for saying things around me that are “offensive”. But I see absolutely no reason not to just laugh off ignorant comments and say to myself “At least I know how people really feel.” I find it disgusting and reprehensible to just claim victim status every time you don’t get exactly what you want
It's reassuring to read that some young people have humanity that cannot be corrupted by BS propaganda and lies from certain sectors of the Left. I've always been what we used to just call Liberal and there was never any doubt about morals and civilization and "never-again" about the Holocaust, and that nothing like it should ever happen to anyone ever again. Over many years I listened to progressive news radio stations that always had a critical, but construction, and not hateful narrative about the US and the West on the one hand, but along with that they injected this hateful narrative about Israel.
To me it was obviously hateful because there was no objectivity in it. Every mention of Islam and Palestinians was totally positive - never, and I mean never was a negative or critical word uttered about injustice of the Arab refugees from Israel.
On the other side was just as one-sided - never ever was a positive word spoken about Israel. Israel was always portrayed as the world country and people in the world.
People like Noam Chomsky who I could appreciate on one level just seemed to me to be insane when he got into a certain area of politics and the subject of Israel.
Not only has Hamas and this toxic abominable religion that is not even a religion destroyed so many lives on both sides in the Middle East, but it has poisoned the idea of the Left/Liberalism/Progressivism and left it open for the extreme Right-wing in the US to pretend moral superiority and discredit Liberal ideals because of the actions of a few, and the intensity of the vicious ILLIBERALITY of the fake Leftist barbarians.
How could people be so ignorant or evil?
If you’re a student you might like to do less waffling and little more academic research. The Palestinians have been murdered and abducted and had their land stolen systematically for decades and decades. This didn’t start on October 7th
@@JastorKeane-ln2tz
When you are totally wrong it is not a good idea to lecture other people about the stuff you are wrong about. Look around the Muslim world and you see expansionism from Arabia, where Islam started to the east and the west, where Muslims have killed, enslaved or taxed non-Muslims for hundreds of years. No this did not start on Oct. 7th, it did not start in 1948 either. So maybe shut you gd trap if you can't get it right or feel you have to lie to protect a very ugly society and way of life.
It was never about Jews; it's about the colonizer and the oppressed. They have been murdering Palestinians for years under the guise that they are 'terrorists' or 'anti-Semitic.' And guess what, no one cares about them because they are mostly Muslims and not white.
@justgivemethetruth So then why are you trying to lecture people?
I’m just here for the Housekeeping …and am in absolute agreement.
Excellent conversation. Thank you.
Sam Harris should talk to Einat wilf she has a really good way of explaining this
Ask her about that historical claim and see how it goes
@@sulljoh1 What historical claim?
@@serpentines6356 The historical claim that "Jews" have to the land of Israel
Sam, your guest was great but can you please do more uploads where you just speak about your thoughts regarding what's currently going on in America/the world?
That might be what his substack is going to be for 👍
He does that in every video dang near and including this one. lol
@@tcgdiscussions2413 Gees, it's as if he hasn't really been listening.
Will that be another thing we need to pay $14.99/mo for?
@@sulljoh1 nothing he does needs to be paid for, your argument is invalid
To those who think otherwise: Sams fear of Islamic jihad is justified. We are seeing in the west now a suicidal attraction to something committed to our own demise. At least we're courageous I guess, or are we just extremely naive?
Of course it is. But he’s still only selectively applying his logic
@@Giddygooncave bingo
@@Giddygooncaveright because Zionists seek the downfall of the west? What is the double standard here?
Hungarian ruling government party will say you are pro war if you advocating for self defense of Ukraine.
Although I work with dozens of Muslims who are the most peaceful kindest people. It seems more Muslims have been attacked in their places of worship by crazed white westerners than islamists that have attacked westerners. There is no doubt there are more states in the Middle East that have t changed in 2,000 years. Stay away from them, quit killing Palestinians and every thing will be fine.
She is able to make the longest sentences I have ever heard.
Too long!
@@mckeeskIt challenged my listening-endurance skills, which I consider good practice. She had some very good points, and I learned new stuff.
And they're so well constructed!
Read Marcel Proust. Or don't.
Yeah. Sam hardly got to say a word
How can I find Michal's speech at the UN which happened 3 weeks ago. I can only find the one 7 months ago.
That's the one
That's the speech. The interview itself is from December. Sam mentions in the first 20 minutes of the podcast before the interview started, that he recorded this interview months ago & has delayed releasing it until now due to - as he puts it - his own incompetence
You put truth above popularity. Excellent podcast with an extremely knowledgeable guest who says it like it is.
Peak comedy
If you want to know what a politician is thinking, all you have to do is interview their spokesperson, right? That's where you go for the truth!
Zionism Is Nazism
He literally doesn't which is why he refers to all of his previous compatriots as "former friends". He refuses to confront his own bias and blind spots and it has cost him greatly.
@@nba25678 this is the opposite of truth. This episode is so full of bias it’s unreal
Durban resident from South Africa here, I LIVED during apartheid : This is NOT apartheid. She's 💯 correct. I'd like 2 let the world know that MILLIONS of SOUTH 🇿🇦ns stand with 🇮🇱
@@janestorm9813 I lived it too and respect those South Africans who went there and said it's even worse. SA's meticulous case at the ICJ was incontrovertible
I think I'll trust Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who knew a thing or two about apartheid, who said that Israel's apartheid is far worse. I suggest that you watch the documentary - available to view for free on RUclips - Roadmap to Apartheid, which was made by South Africans.
@@janestorm9813 white South African?
Durban resident from South Africa here - almost all people of colour in South Africa and a large share of the whites are disgusted at Israel’s behaviour. You know a colossal blunder has been made and you’re entering a world of pain.
@@adamwaterhouse I'm sure he knew a lot about apartheid in South Africa, but he knew nothing about Israel.
The word "articulate" was designed for someone like Michal Cotler-Wunsh .
True, she is a top notch propagandist for sure.
@@menzere2009 That's a good thing for Israel, and the world.
The difference between "antisemitic" and "anti-Zionist" is the same as the difference between "racist" and "race realist". The fact that we're supposed to buy this exceedingly minor rebranding as some sort of conceptually new and entirely distinct ideology is intellectually insulting.
I think it's reasonable to have a viewpoint that the modern state of Israel should never have been created (in Palestine) and that viewpoint is presumably anti-zionist. Some people hold that position without any firm viewpoint on the future of Israel and Palestine (as it is too complex).
@@davegold - OK, but that kind of logic can apply to any and every country on this planet, including the one you live in. How's that different from saying "France should have never been created... so let's wipe it off the face of the Earth and give the land to, oh I don't know, the Huguenots or the Normans or the Suebi. I'm not anti-French, I just think they should not exist as a concept."?
@@davegold That kind of logic can apply to literally any country on this planet. "France should have never been created, so we should wipe French people off the face of the Earth and give the land back to, oh, I don't know, the Gauls or the Aquitani or the Huguenots. I'm not anti-French, I just think that France should not exist as a concept." There is literally no difference.
But somehow that logic doesn't apply to ANY other country besides Israel. Not one other country out of 195. It isn't broadly acceptable in the civilized world to call for eradication of any of them, only Israel. Sure, some very localized issues exist (e. g. I think Serbia and Russia don't recognize Kosovo) but broadly, proudly acceptable around the modern world? None.
@davegold That kind of logic can apply to literally any country on this planet. "France should have never been created, so we should wipe French people off the face of the Earth and give the land back to, oh, I don't know, the Gauls or the Aquitani or the Huguenots. I'm not anti-French, I just think that France should not exist as a concept." There is literally no difference.
@@davegold But somehow that logic doesn't apply to ANY other country besides Israel. Not one other country out of 195. It isn't broadly acceptable in the civilized world to call for eradication of any of them, only Israel. Sure, some very localized issues exist (e. g. I think Serbia and Russia don't recognize Kosovo) but broadly, proudly acceptable around the modern world? None.
Should France exist has a state for native french?
20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, and most of them are Muslim.
It already does.
Nobody has a right to an ethnostate.
@@soarel325 are Nigerians entitled to have an ethno state. Why aren't people allowed to live in their country with their people.
@@jmc5335not really, the urban areas are african sharia no go zones
Worst Effective Altruist ever...
Been looking forward to this introduction after the debate.
Lol, Harris is so full of it. "When it comes to the Jews, no one cares." Are you kidding me?! Name me one other group of people that has had 16 resolutions passed in Congress for them? Is there an "Anti-White Awareness Act" or an "Islamophobia Awareness Act"? No. But there is an Anti-Semitism Awareness Act
Zionism is a variant of ethno-statism. To argue for Zionism is to give credence to an ethnostate. If a state exists in furtherance of the Jewish people, then other states shall exist to defend other ethnic peoples.
If ethnic states should not exist, then neither should Jewish states.
To be clear, I’m agnostic on the Zionism question. But I do not believe that to be anti-Zionist is to be antisemitic. If it were, then by this rationale, opposing any ethno-state means to oppose the respective ethnic group too.
There is nothing about a Jewish state that necessarily includes a system that isn't equal in treatment of any ethnicity.
There are many countries that meet the criteria of "ethnostate".
You can debate as to exactly what that means but the fact is not every nation can be the US or Canada.
Israel cant allow open immigration to the Arabs. They would destroy Israel from the inside.
That's not what intersectionality was about, it wasn't about transcending our differences but to recognise that some people don't fit into the existing categories and need intersectional remedies to address their needs - Crenshaw used the example of Black women to argue that policies designed for the black community based on the needs of Black men will exclude Black women and that policies designed for women based on the needs of white women will also exclude Black women.
I found it useful as a Jewish woman!
Another minor correction, Israel left Gaza in 2005 not in 2007 - Michal does say this at first but then says "Israel hasn't been in Gaza since 2007" when those who left Gaza in 2007 were the EU officials at the border (1:00:48). (It's also worth remember as we're being told that internationally-supervised deals are meant to be trustworthy)
I'm not completely closed to the idea of Biden dropping out, but my question is who replaces him? Is it as simple as Kamala taking the reigns and a new VP nominated?
There are literally 10's of thousands of more qualified individuals. Yes that does become the question but only once we can agree he needs to be replaced.
I’m warming to the idea that it’s the only realistic path …and it’s better than the one we’re on.
In the 2020 primary, one of the few things the left and right could agree on was that they didn't like Kamala. I think she'd struggle to get support now too. From an electability standpoint, Gavin Newsom is probably the best choice. I don't like his politics, he's uninspiring, but he's well-established and doesn't have cognitive decline. Pete Buttigieg is not nearly as established and probably a bad pick, but I throw his name in there because he knows how to give Trump a taste of his own medicine in debates and is quick-witted.
@@synchronium24 Probably agree with you …from a feasibility standpoint, I don’t…although still searching for good counters to the logistical, legal, and political hurdles to going non-Kamala (have not found anything even mildly decent as of yet …)
Does it really matter who the puppet is?
Thanks for releasing the whole episode. This was definitely a conversation the world needs to hear.
Sadly there are a lot of people who don't want to and wont hear this.
That's like saying that there are authentic interpretations and philosophies in the Islamic world besides Salafism. In fact, it isn't the same and there are significant differences in their gravitation.
There are authentic forms of Judaism that are Non-Zionist or Anti-Zionist and there are authentic forms of Islam that are not Salafism. However, the difference is that the overwhelming majority of Jews feel some degree of kinship with Israel whereas the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not identify as Salafist.
Furthermore, the real issue with the rejection of Zionism is that it rejects the Jewish political voice, which is to say that Jews are only allowed to be politicale when their politics align with other populations and not speak their own truth -- to self-determine.
Thankyou Sam and Michal for this deep conversation. Extremism is the bass note here and the Wests response and reaction to it,here and now,concerns and affects all of humanity.
Awesome conversation. Thanks for making this a PSA. :-)
Wow. I have listened to the first one hour and ten minutes. I have not heard the words “settler” or “settlements” yet.
Very one sided.
One can make a case that Gaza is just inevitably brutal. But the settlers and Sde Tieman in particular have sort of destroyed any vestiges of a positive view that I had for the Israeli government.
Welcome to Sam Harris nowadays :) he'll never debate someone from the other side. Last time he did, he debated Dan Carlin and lost lol
Michal has a radiant intelligence and much to share. Yet while I appreciate such a solid education on anti-semitism's past and present history, I come to Sam's podcasts to hear conversations, specifically to hear Sam's unique heart and mind interact with another's - often people I wouldn't necessarily otherwise be so interested to hear. I don't think Michal was rude or ungracious, but what's missing here for me is the chemistry of conversation - it is more of a lecture. And a bit of a missed opportunity as a result.
I agree. I felt like Sam Harris was performing an interview for us rather than having a two-way discussion.
I agree. I wonder how much of this has to do with it being a free episode.
Did Bibi ever really want to get the hostages back, based on his actions?
Thank you a thousand times. The world is yet again a frightening and threatening place.
Great conversation! Thank you! Warm hug from Argentina!
Wow…that was amazing! Thank you both so much! 🇮🇱💜
🧼
Genuinely baffling how Sam can argue for years on end that calling someone Islamaphobic is used only to stifle conversation on Islam yet can’t see that the very same thing is now being done with Anti-semitism and a criticism of Zionism or Israel
Denying the right of Jews to their homeland state and being critical of Islam, which is a set of ideas, are two very different things.
In due time you should be due to adjudicate his Jewish traits.
He's a Jewish nationalist, plain and simple. It's time for whites to start looking out for their interests in the same way that jews and everyone else look out for theirs.
@@drcrocodile1two different things but doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be able to criticise Zionism. Christopher Hitchens (someone of Jewish descent) was Anti-Zionist. Calling him anti-Semitic for his reservations is only used to stop conversation on the topic
Yes, this is going to trigger the Leftists and Muslims with their 51 Islamic countries and 99.7% of the land area of the Middle East.
Oh boy. Just here for the comments section 🔥🍿🔥🍿🔥
Same. It's about to get spicy
The characterization of Zionism as a form of colonialism is a contentious and complex issue, with differing perspectives among scholars, historians, and political commentators. Here are the key points on both sides of the debate:
### Arguments for Zionism as Colonialism:
1. **Settler-Colonial Paradigm**: Some scholars argue that Zionism shares characteristics with settler colonialism, as it involved the migration of Jews to Palestine, the establishment of settlements, and the displacement of the indigenous Palestinian population.
2. **Land and Resource Control**: Critics point to the expropriation of land and resources from Palestinians, and the establishment of a state primarily for Jewish people, as hallmarks of colonial practices.
3. **Indigenous Displacement**: The Nakba, or the 1948 Palestinian exodus, is often cited as evidence of colonial practices, where an indigenous population was displaced to make way for settlers.
### Arguments Against Zionism as Colonialism:
1. **National Liberation Movement**: Supporters of Zionism argue that it is a national liberation movement for the Jewish people, aimed at establishing a homeland in response to centuries of persecution and statelessness.
2. **Historical and Religious Ties**: Proponents emphasize the historical and religious connection of Jews to the land of Israel, which differentiates it from traditional colonialism, where colonizers have no historical ties to the land they colonize.
3. **Self-Determination**: Zionism is also framed as an exercise in self-determination for Jews, who sought a safe and sovereign homeland in the face of widespread anti-Semitism and the Holocaust.
### Nuanced Perspectives:
- **Dual Nature**: Some scholars suggest that Zionism contains elements of both colonialism and national liberation. They acknowledge the genuine aspirations of Jews for a homeland while also recognizing the colonial-like impacts on the Palestinian population.
- **Postcolonial Analysis**: This perspective examines how colonial legacies and power dynamics have influenced the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, without necessarily labeling Zionism strictly as colonialism.
In summary, whether Zionism is considered colonialism depends on the interpretive framework and the perspectives of different stakeholders. The debate remains highly polarized, reflecting broader tensions in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
@@everythingandmore5537 dude really copy pasted the AI view in here
@radscorpion8
AI viewpoint shows both sides. The solution is all displaced people should go back to their original villages. The idea of a Jewish or non-jewish state should be abandoned. A secular democratic state which respect human rights is the solution. The law of return should be extended to non-jews. For every returning jew a non-jew also returns. So the population is balanced.
@@everythingandmore5537This is the true moral position, but saying it’s secular vs non Jewish is practically the same thing.
I tried watching the debate but it was so painful i had to turn it off
I watched 30 seconds (that was enough to get the gist of it)
Pity you probably needed to hear it most.
@Abcnz1989 I'm not eligible to vote, there's a large moat between my country and the U.S. called the Atlantic
Painful because of the watered-down description of what actually happened on October 7th, or painful because you don't want to hear the truth? True, the truth is unbearable to even imagine.
@maltija1 painful to see the condition Biden is in and the way he struggles to form sentences. He's obviously not mentally competent. Which I'm gutted about by the way, I can't vote but if I could I would vote for Biden.
Thank you so much for this. I have heard many conversations in the last months over this subject, she was without a doubt the most eloquent and clear. I enjoyed listening.
Podcast description ‘ the death of noncombatants in Gaza’ euphuism for ‘the death of innocents (kids) in Gaza’.
Who exactly are the ones supposed to protect these kids? THeir parents and government which happens to be Hamas. Good riddance. Using kids as a means to force the West to be anti-Israel is one of the sickest things a people can do. But Palis have no issues with doing that whatsoever. And the West keeps falling for it instead of looking at these people for what they are...absolute monsters.
@@RazzyBee666Good riddance to children dying?
Civilians for you are innocent 3 years old crying in a corner, for others it could be civilian adults that held Israeli hostages in their homes or helped building the dungeon tunnels and rockets
@@baronnuuke7821 none of those are targets
take your propaganda to al jazeera, ya hamas lover
As someone who has been sympathetic to arabs, I think the argument that Israel was the only legitimate government of the entire place 1948-1998 makes sense. But arabs do not want jewish rule. Give them Jordanian passports and a vote in local elections. Israel will pay Jordan a bounty for any Palestinian anywhere who chooses to move to Jordan.
Harris has fully lost his mind. This is historical revisionism, obvious double standards, and emotional pleading. I say that as a jew who is not antizionist.
Respect to you. Sam is 💯 playing on emotions.
I second this. Sam Harris is the dumbest intelligent man in the world. He and Jordan Peterson remind me of the concentration camp commanders who loved Mozart and played the piano at home. It proves that culture and education have no value if you follow a demonic ideology.
"If you chant "from the river to the sea," you have an IQ of 43."
- Francis Foster -
Zionism Is Nazism.
And if you believe that, you are brain dead.
How about when the Likud party founding principles is the same? The evidence are there that Zionists are seizing the land of people by force, deceit and divine warrant … whoever behave and continue to ethnically cleanse the inhabitants of the land must stop the demands of not being hated
Attempting to denigrate someone’s intelligence using a rhyming non sequitur is ironic, to say the least... 🤣
@@jameshegeman5660 It's 0.
Michal talks a lot and glibly, but I never get the sense that she has made a coherent argument or cogent point on the topic. Rather, it seemed like a stream of words trying to simply wash away any doubts. I prefer a bit more clarity of ideas, with pauses in between perhaps. (Sam is much better at making specific arguments on any topic than this guest.)
Great discussion but there is much Michal says which is debatable, and Sam was the man for it!
Sam love these vids. To best attack the woke west arguments please focus on the specific details how idf is not geocoding in its routing of hamas, is going out of their way to protect Palestinian civilians, how isreals has just reasons to live where they are currently located historically are valid. Go deep and hard on the specific arguments that are being raised in pro pal west protests. This is how we reach those on the fence, those too scared to stand up against pro pal. We also need to make islamaphobia not a bad thing or banned word. islam inspires terror and hate, its hate based lived beliefs need to be judged for what it is.
I would love to hear Sam's opinion about project 2025 and what that would mean to America going forward should Trump win november.
I recommend that hundreds of thousands of liberals sign up as candidates for the presumed 2025 project. This will screw up their bookkeeping and probably get some bright liberals appointed to positions where they can function as double agents.
@@jamesfranklin2360 I would recommend that liberals and leftists put aside their petty differences and vote the only vote that can preserve democracy, ie vote Biden or whoever is the Democrat nominee. Any action other than that is handing fascism the throne.
@@ibnwarraq7826 Agreed, but just in case...
Anti-Zionism is Antisemitism the exact same way that Anti-Nazism is Anti-German. Sam, I thank you very deeply for The Moral Landscape getting me out of a very dark place in my life, but at some point in the past few years you've shit the bed and think the stench is coming from somewhere else. You've become consumed by dogma and personal bias, and have grown too arrogant to be capable of recognizing your own faults.
You clearly don't understand the definition of Zionism and Antisemitism if you're going to claim that's the same as Nazism and Germany. Keep trying though.
no, thinking that it's wrong for the Jews to have a country in their historic homeland that was colonized by Romans, Muslims, and British is fucked up. While every other country used to have other people living there before, but no one gives a fuck until it comes to the Jews.
Or anti-CRT is anti-black. Zionism is an ideology - it isn't an ethnicity. A woke sacred victim identity ideology that weaponized victimhood to make demands on third parties whereby they had to suffer costs to make up for group victimhood - this is something Harris and tons of the anti-woke Zionists don't permit say black people.
zionism is just the movement and right of jews to live in their indigenous land, its not whatever u think it is
Just because you can throw anti in front of two words does not make them synonyms in comparison to other things 😂 or is it the same way being anti-bidenism or anti-trumpism is anti-americanism 😂 Sams fear of Islamic jihad is justified. We are seeing in the west now a suicidal attraction to something committed to our own demise. At least we're courageous I guess, or are we just extremely naive?
This was a powerful episode, and no you didn't drop the ball by not publishing at the time of the interview, this was even more powerful to hear now.
President Harris (not Kamala, but Sam), please save us. You can do the job!
Leading with a logical fallacy was a strong signal of what was to come. That fallacy labels anyone critical of the recent behaviour of israel as antisemitic - which is a clear failure of brain function. Huge respect for SH the neuroscientist but the quality of this discourse seems atypical to the man.
I am by no stretch a fan of Sam. But I do fail to see the fallacy to which you refer. Please explicate.
@@stevenmonroe8652 The title makes the claim that anti-zionism is antisemitism, which is in the spirit of "if you arent with us then you are against us". That falls into the category of false dilemma or false dichotomy, i.e. no room for those folks who do not support genocide. There may be more nuance intended but within this context - not feeling it.
@@ansar-man But doesn't Sam explicate his rationale in that regard in the introduction? By his own lights, prior to 20231007 he saw a clear distinction, and afterwords, that distinction no longer functions in context with the political climate after that time. You also indicate:
> "There may be more nuance intended but within this context - not feeling it."
But doesn't this equate to an argumentum ad passiones?
@@stevenmonroe8652 Sure - something like what SH describes is likely to have happened. Is it a majority shift of anti-zionists to antisemitism, are there new antisemites that previously had no opinion on either issue, or are there new antisemites that were previously just anti-genocide? Is any of this statistically significant? At best this is a debate for middle-east academics. While there may be substance to the specifics of the title the remainder of the video is about positioning of israelis as the victims and the good guys. An authentic title would have been along those lines.
@@ansar-man I agree with the majority of what you write above. However I don't interpret what I heard by either Harris or the guest as "positioning of israelis as the victims and the good guys." I strongly suspect that ANY sovereign nation (and Israel is in point of fact a sovereign nation) would react to the event(s) of 20231007 in a similar way.
I have several professional colleagues who are former military (US or UK) and have seen combat in the mideast in various conflicts since 1990. Tactics as Harris describes in his introduction are verified in first hand account(s) by these people ... and the accounts harmonise extremely well across multiple geographical locations of conflict, so the potential accusation "those reports are anecdotal" doesn't square with the univocal reportage.
Finally, I don't think the Israelis are particulary concerned with being "the good guys" as much as what the guest explicitly expressed ... a kind of, "WTF?" at the double standard applied to their prosecution of the conflict.
And ... I can't say that I blame them- Two recent conflicts come to mind, although others could be mentioned: the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and the persecution of Uyghurs in China. Neither China nor Azerbaijan get criticised even close to what Israel has been, despite the behaviour being remarkably similar. There truly is a "WTF?" aspect to this which the guest expressed very well.
Not a moment of pushback in the entire interview. It felt a bit like a FOX news circlejerk. You're better than this, Sam.
Pushback on what exactly?
There was an ever so slight pushback re' the confused mindset of a percentage of university protesters Vs. university protesters that are simply antisemitic
Regardless, I know I don't listen to Sam to receive basic arguments from tribe a, b, or whatever, but rather a detailed & reasoned analysis of deeper dynamics & processes that either maintain &/or birth bad ideas. For this reason, this episode explored nothing new - I've heard it voiced by others 1000 times before.
@@BarrySometimes Thanks for saving me 1hour and 40minutes
@@Alnivol666 There are several places where Sam could have dug deeper but since he basically agrees with his guest, he didn't.
Some examples of ideas that he could have explored were:
(1) whether other forms of Anti-Zionism (such as the belief that all ethnonationalism is wrong or that the self-removal of Jews from the civic nationalist project would not protect them -- Hitchens-style Anti-Zionism), which may violare the IHRA Definition, would actually be Antisemitic and to clarify the confusion on how to identify the Antisemitism in Anti-Zionism.
(2) discussing the conflicting aspirations in the Jewish community that alt-righters often discuss but in a more santizing way, such as how Jews generally believe that Israel should be an ethnonationalist state but that Western countries should be civic nationalist states and what the motivations and meanings are behind that.
(3) pressing her to provide more detail on the double standards, such as pointing out that despite China's vast human rights violations, China has a permanent UNSC seat, so it can vote against resolutions that implicate it, resulting in few being proposed. A discussion of how these international organs fail Israel/Jews would be interesting.
@@oremfrien I can discuss your points:
1)Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism:
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism includes denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. Some forms of anti-Zionism, such as the belief that all forms of ethnonationalism are wrong, may not inherently violate this definition unless they specifically deny only the Jewish people this right. Christopher Hitchens' style of anti-Zionism, which questions the safety and efficacy of a Jewish ethnostate, can be debated without necessarily being antisemitic, provided it applies consistent principles that are also applied to other nations and peoples. The key to identifying antisemitism in anti-Zionism is consistency; if criticism of Israel is disproportionate compared to similar situations in other countries, or if it delegitimizes or demonizes Israel uniquely, it may cross into antisemitic territory.
2)Conflicting Aspirations and Ethno vs. Civic Nationalism:
The debate about Jews supporting ethnonationalism in Israel while advocating civic nationalism in Western countries can be viewed through the lens of historical context and security. Jews have historically been persecuted minorities in many countries, and the creation of Israel as an ethnonationalist state is seen as a necessary safeguard, a homeland where Jews can defend themselves and preserve their culture. In contrast, in stable, diverse societies where Jews are minorities, civic nationalism - which promotes equal rights regardless of ethnicity - is seen as the best guarantee of safety and equality. Thus, the motivations are not necessarily conflicting but are responses to different historical and social contexts.
3)International Double Standards:
The discussion of double standards often revolves around how international bodies, such as the United Nations, handle different countries. For example, China, despite its human rights issues (e.g., treatment of Uighur Muslims), rarely faces the same scrutiny or number of resolutions that Israel does at the UN. This discrepancy can be partly attributed to China's permanent seat on the UN Security Council, which allows it to veto unfavorable resolutions. In contrast, Israel, lacking a similar level of protection, is often subjected to more resolutions and scrutiny. This imbalance illustrates a failure of international bodies to apply standards consistently, often to the detriment of Israel's international standing. This highlights a broader issue with how international law and norms are applied selectively, often influenced by political alliances and power dynamics rather than consistent principles of justice and human rights.
Thank you for a brilliant episode Sam. It would be timely to get Dan Stone on Making Sense. I have just finished reading his book The Holocaust: An unfinished History. It is an excellent read.
@@AnthonyMonaghan He'd be far too woke for Harris to invite on
I think they have those automobile blocking rocks in front of Target stores as well.
Sam Harris must be a good human overall, but he's a poor public figure right now. Why hide from the world and talk to people whom you only agree with? Why not talk to people like Dave Smith, Joe Rogan and others? Why keep saying the same thing over and over again to people who already agree with you? If you believe Israel has a better argument to defend itself (which I think doesn't exist), come out of your bubble and talk to people. Have conversations and try to convince people who think Israel has doing evil for decades now. Convince me to believe otherwise.
Yeah Joe Rogan is especially a brain powerhouse XD
No, I don't think he is. He's shown an affinity to racist ideas and guests a few times too often now for it to be a coincidence, a blind spot or an oversight. He's a softly spoken racist
He would be toast if he went up against Norm Finklestein, John Mearsheimer and several hundred other very knowledgeable and thoughtful and humane people. But he's a coward.
@@cowbless Why does that matter? It's about his audience and Harris' arguments reaching them.
Sam, I know you don't read the comments... but if you do read this, I'm saying this from a place of love and constructive criticism. How do you not see the incredible double standard between what you are saying now about AntiZionism being equivalent antisemitism and what you've been saying for years about anti-Islamism not being equivalent to Islamaphobia?? You're a very bright guy Sam, but we all have our biases and this seems to be a glaring one. Please have on someone serious who does not agree with your view for a conversation. I think this may be enlightening for you and many of your listeners.
The criticism of the actions of a nation state is not equivalent to the condemnation of its people or its culture or its right to exist. Most Zionists in the US are actually Evangelical Christians, and many Jews do not support the state of Israel inherently. Help me make sense of this seeming blind spot Sam, please.
People have been saying this for a while in the comments section and he has failed to address any of it
WEll said. I've been saying this for a while, but most of my comments get deleted.
💯
What are your thoughts on Arab nationalism? Would you consider suggesting Arabs move somewhere else to avoid upsetting neighbors?😮Please also address the fact that Arabs occupied much of Middle East after concurring the lands that were not historically theirs.
@@hinahinananoha7783 I'm not OP, but I think anyone with an education in history can see that Arab nationalism, and Islamo-fascist colonialism has a pretty deep stain on that region of the world. It is indeed also true that Jewish presence in Israel predated Arabs or Islam itself.
The problem becomes, what do we do with that information? Are you seriously in favor of everyone returning to their ethnic homeland? That is an absolute mess. People don't want to be kicked out of a land because their great-great grandfather was from somewhere else. What if their ancestors had immigrated peacefully? Are you developing a system to differentiate those people from the descendants of colonizers, and will allow them to stay? As for the people that should leave in favor of the ethnically native, what is your strategy that won't lead into a Gaza-like situation?
The point is this is absolute madness to incorporate. The world is messy, people move around everywhere. Most people don't live in their ancestor's ethnic homeland today. Migration is a natural human phenomenon. The fact we are even discussing the efficacy of "returning a people" to their ethnic land is completely insane. Jews should be allowed to immigrate anywhere, including Israel, and be afforded full rights. That's what self-preservation looks like. "Zionism" is not that. Zionism is what leads to what we are seeing in Gaza now..
Its not. Moving on.
It could hardly be funnier that Sam turned out to be a radical ethnonationalist, just not for anyone but his own tribe. It is racist for you to want demographic continuity for your tribe, but Jews get a pass, and actually you are racist if you oppose this special exception for Jews.
Here's another funny: Sam's complete obliviousness/state of denial that his white knuckled TDS (anybody/thing but Trump) is precisely what has powered what he now suddenly, hand wringingly, out of the blue decries as "There's a proper insanity surrounding the president now where people are just torching their reputation coming forward defending him..."
Only just "now", Sam?
Bingo!
Butttttttt the jews born in USA, and moved to Israel did it for "safety", and not all the free Palestinian land and houses, along with zionist "charities" giving people tens of thousands of dollars and employment guarantees for moving to Israel, from USA, which we all know the jews are "being persecuted in"🤔🤔
Haha, it’s kind of hilarious; but also, it isn’t.
From past comments, He never really took anti-semitism seriously. Something has obviously changed since October 7 for him, and probably not just because of the unprecedented barbarity of the attacks. I’d bet his mail-bag is horrific; I wouldn’t be surprised if all the Jewish podcasters we like have experienced a spike in anti-Semitic sentiment.
So he gets a pass lol.
@@vanessa1569 Yes, when his homeland gets attacked then we need to shut down immigration and build the wall, ha?
Curious how that works.
As a lifelong listener and supporter of Sam Harris, it’s just so wild to hear him speak so one sidedly on a topic and moment in history like this. I’m all for hearing this side of the argument, but Sam has evaded doing almost any investigation into the merits of the opposing ideas here. This is not as simple as he’s making it out to be, and he’s doing a disservice to this community that he’s fostered for so long, by getting sucked into the dogma of his Jewish heritage. It’s almost like he’s captured by religion, despite having battled against it his entire career.
Nothing but love for the man though. I use his meditation apps. I consume most of his content. I respect him as a voice, and in a way, the fact that he too is just a fallible human, prone to this sort of cognitive bias and error; only makes me empathetic to our combined condition. Like, if Sam cant see the middle ground here, then let’s not be so hard on ourselves. It’s clearly THAT divisive.
Still holding out hope that he starts digging into the real conversation going on out here tho. We need him in the middle of this. Helping us forge a path forward. Not slinging mud and anger from the sidelines.
He’s so full of shit on this topic it’s unreal
October 7 demonstrated that the "middle ground" was wrong. 80% of Palestinians (or more) don't want a two-state solution or any solution that allows Jews to live in peace and safety in the land of their ancestors.
Its because he's Jewish
the idea that you get to have an opinion on this topic is wild entitlement.
On what recent episode have you see Sam engage opposing ideas? He didn't on Trump, he didn't on Covid, and you expected him to be different now?
Learning without changing isn't a plan for never again. Ideologies of speciality tend to find each other.
Holy Cow. In 17 words you summed up a concept I’ve been trying to articulate for years. Sir, please don’t be offended, but I can’t help but think you’re a bot.
Dude acts like there isn’t an absolute ban hammer on anti semitism
Thank you, Sam! Trying to get through to these people about it is difficult, to say the least. Glad most of the world is with Israel.
Actually, most of the world isn't, which is something that hasn't gotten through to people like Sam beyond the standard issue denialism dismissing this reality as the greatest evidence for World Antisemitism™ Pat.Pend. evah.
Thanks for the free propaganda-- I mean, lecture-- I mean, discussion.
Since Sam succumbed to TDS and Covid cooties hysteria, I haven’t been able to take him seriously on most other topics. However, Im in agreement with him wholeheartedly on Israel, and 10/7 woke me up w regard to rampant antisemitism I thought no longer existed. We need a huge rally in support of the Jewish people and Israel now.❤
DESTINY AND SAM HARRIS! MAKE IT HAPPEN!
They are both ignorant
So clear that Sam and viewers pro this limited view didn't watch the Intelligence Squared debate about this same topic.
If you want to have a discussion/debate about the notion, go watch the debate and have a real two sides view on the topic.
Spoiler alert, Anti-Zionism Is not Antisemitism!
A debate from 4 years ago, between Mehdi Hasan and Illan Pape. That's hilarious! Two sides, for sure!
It never used to be but now it is. Very hard to argue otherwise. What is wrong with believing Israel has a right to exist and wanting it to exist? Do you want to see Islam prevail in the world? Anyone who is not Jewish and is anti-Zionist is absolutely anti-Semitic.
@@guidobolke5618 Because the conflict is only a few months old, right ^^
@@xStolzesHerz I have followed the conflict on and off for 35 years. For how long have you? Tell me.
When you follow it, you will see that some things change and some things stay the same. Oct 7 was an event that changed things. The idea to give the Palestinians more self determination in conjuction with massive foreign aid to form a peaceful society that respects the right of Israel to exist is off the table. Hamas has willingly ended it with a big symbolic bang that Israel can't ignore.
Therefore, the debate to the question "Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism?" has changed. Context matters. That's obvious!
But a debate about this between an anti-zionist Al Jazeera Journalist and an anti-zionist BDS supporter? Come on, that's just a bad setup for a debate.
I watched that and agreed with it at the time but my view on this has definitely changed post October 7th.
I wasn't prepared to accept the premise in the title of this video. My first reaction was: being against bad theology doesn't equal endangering the lives of believers. The arguments made in the video are too densely packed with absolute statements for me to shake the feeling that there are other valid ways to approach the subject. My bad.... I'll try to keep up.
The title is premised on the idea that there are no apparent behavioral differences between someone being Anti-Zionist and Antisemitic. You can be Anti-Zionist on an intellectual level, but no one is actually doing that. Protesting synagogues in the US is not anti-Zionism, it is antisemitism.
@@mdgprogrammer yes and that is a far-reaching statement that is virtually impossible to prove, especially because one could easily argue how they are incompatible. To argue that Jewish people should leave Israel, and settle say, in the United States (I'm sure they'd make room), would guarantee their safety. There is no way Palestinians would follow them to the US. So you could easily be pro-jewish there, and only concerned with the safety of jews. Israel has been under near constant attack for almost its entire existence. Of course people could argue that the Jewish people would be safer living elsewhere.
@@radscorpion8 Why are you so sure that Jews would be safe in the United States? Jews are, per capita, the single group most targeted for hate crimes (more than African-Americans or Muslims). The United States also has a long history of Legal Antisemitism. At least in Israel, they can protect themselves.
Furthermore, the main claim is that while it is theoretically possible to be Anti-Zionist based on the idea of rejecting all ethno-nationalist countries, the people who say this don't actually call for the disolution of Germany, Italy, Slovenia, Turkey, Pakistan, or Thailand which are all countries explicitly founded and organized as ethnonationalist states (which betrays the special pleading in the argument).
@allendesomer -- Zionism (the belief that Jews have the right to self-determine in their ancestral homeland) isn't bad theology any more than any nationalist movement is bad theology. Zionism stands or falls based on the historical experience of the Jewish people and it does not require any belief in Judaism or its theological claims to validate that archaeological and sociopolitical history.
@@mdgprogrammer Yeah let's deny international law and sell lands from the West Bank, let's goooo. Yall are so disgusting.
Thanks Sam!!
Sam Harris showing that October 7 short-circuited his brain.
ethno-nationalism for me not for thee
EXACTLY.
That's the issue with ethnoreligious communities that believe their people are the chosen ones. They're more inclined to believe in rules that only apply to them.
I support ethno-nationalism for everyone, but I can't speak these views in public. Sam supports ethno-nationalism only for his tribe while in my country, and his views are mainstream.
It makes you wonder...
Most Islamic countries are Muslim ethno-nationalist. If you want to stop being a Muslim to change your beliefs, they have apostasy laws which often grant the death penalty. So when we talk about athno-nationalism, we need to first do a deep examination of Muslim led nation states and their policies. And if you are not willing to do that, you are dishonest from the very start of the argument.
Sam, please make a video deconstructing postmodernism. It has become like a god in the humanities in my country. I think only you can deconstruct postmodernism. Please do!
I doubt you even know what post modernism even is you JBP ball fondler.
This is false.
Pweaasee Sam, pwease deconstruct postmodernism! Tell me what I already believe, only a tad more eloquently! It would be sooo important!!!
Eastern European Jews were often associated with communism by their non-Jewish neighbors, particularly in the early to mid-20th century. Several factors contributed to this perception:
1. **Prominent Jewish Communists**: Some Jews were prominent in the communist movement, both as intellectuals and activists. Notable figures like Leon Trotsky in Russia and Rosa Luxemburg in Poland and Germany contributed to the stereotype of Jews as communists.
2. **Participation in Revolutionary Movements**: In the wake of the Russian Revolution and the rise of communist parties across Eastern Europe, many Jews joined these movements. This was partly due to the oppressive conditions they faced under the Tsarist regime and other repressive governments, which led them to support radical change.
3. **Anti-Semitic Propaganda**: Anti-Semitic ideologies often conflated Jews with communism as part of broader conspiracy theories. The term "Judeo-Bolshevism" was used to suggest that Jews were behind the communist movement, fueling anti-Semitic sentiments and justifying persecution.
4. **Economic and Social Conditions**: Many Jews were marginalized and faced discrimination, leading some to see communism as a path to equality and social justice. This reinforced the perception among their non-Jewish neighbors that Jews were aligned with communist ideals.
While it is true that some Jews were active in communist movements, it is important to note that the Jewish community was diverse and not monolithic in its political affiliations. Many Jews were also active in other political movements, including Zionism, socialism, and liberalism, and some were opposed to communism altogether.
@@videotrash 🤣 well said. The solipsism is crazy.
109 countries
Another thing about the Nazis.
They regarded German blood as Sacrosanct. It would have been inconceivable for them to use their own women and children as human shields.
But the Gazans have made this standard operating procedure.
Obviously you don't know much about Nazi Germany
Pretty stupid claim. Zionism is nationalistic ideology with theocratic tendency, and you can be against such ideology without being racist. Anyone can be zionist, it is not about ethnicity. And about apartheid policy of Israel, questioning that is pretty much anti-racist no matter who is the perperator (there are other etchinicities living in Israel too, you know).
Next you gonna claim that Anti-Khomeinism is same as being islamophobic?
Indeed, most zionists are Christians
The whole terminology is a retarded nightmare.
I can't believe that you have to come here to say this, but Sam has gone so far down the rabbit hole that I'm afraid his head has got stuck
The claim is - given the obvious historical persecution of Jewish people and the atrocities we saw on 10/7 - to be opposed to there being a Jewish nation-state which bears the raison d-etre of providing protection to Jewish people is, by extension, antisemitic. Posed like this, you can see how one might claim anti-zionism is antisemitic as it would appear that being opposed to there being state protection for Jewish people would result in their inevitable genocide. More straightforwardly, the claim is anti-zionism = anti-existence of Israel. Non-existence of Israel = death of Jews. Make sense?
Virgin take.
Chad: nationalism is the only thing that prevents wars. Strong nations know the stakes. Weak nations cause wars.
55:00 The notion that a person with no family connection to a region for over a hundred generations should be considered “indigenous” to that region simply because they share a religious tradition is extreme. The implication that anyone from the Jewish tradition has an “indigenous right” to settle in that region is extreme and scary.
Why would you ignore Mizrahim who are the majority heritage people in modern I..r.l, or the fact that Jerusalem was always J.. ish and had rebbi there for millennia. I agree that I also have a problem with the 'indigenous' framing, but they are a PEOPLE who have a strong connection to the place and a righteous and legal claim. And the Shia who built al-aqsa ALSO have a strong connection, which is why this issue is so entrenched. If anything, we should be mad at the British who promised the land to BOTH groups and then peaced out.
@@Itsstuff7328 I don’t follow the logic.
You seem to be arguing that because some of the indiginous people who live in Jerusalem are Jewish, everyone that is Jewish is indigenous to Jerusalem.
I’m sorry. I can’t respect that opinion.
@@MarkLeBay No, I am saying that there are a people called "the J..ws". These people were in diaspora for a thousand years, although always maintaining a connection with one another.
I reject wholeheartedly the 'indigenous' argument for BOTH parties.
But I will say the j..ws made a legitimate and legal claim established between 1880s (ish when the Ottoman empire lifted its ban on j..ish land ownership in this region) and 1948.
I will also say the British severely misled the a...rabs who eventually gained the territory of J. or dan. To these people, the British promised the whole of the empire in exchange to fight in their war. Instead, they got j. or dan, the Christians got L eba. non, and we know what happened w/the j-- is.h state. I say, blame the Brits
You are correct. We live in a time when the loudest voices aren't the most rational ones, though.
@MarkLeBay first of all, there have been Jewish who lived in Israel always. There are many Jews who lived in close proximiry to the Israel.
They are indigenous because their ancestor were born there, they kept the same way of life, religion, culture which originated from there.
12:37 to 16:54 - An unnerving fact overlooked about 20th century antisemitism.
The " hit me now" thumbnail 😂😂😂
Of course. Any criticism towards my ideology or tribe is bad. Am I doing this right ?
Just incorporate dramatic music and academic phraseology and you're there 😃
Yeah uh huh. Sam isn’t going to get in to an adversarial debate on this topic.
Listen to his conversation with Rory Stewert
Sam, need commentary on the recent debate debacle and scotus ruling.
Lool they deleted my comment because i asked why Americans should pay for this war
Then how the fuck this comment is up? Impeccable logic...
@@hokiturmixobviously he edited and self censored the spicy stuff. Not that hard 🤦♂️
@@hokiturmix I have no clue the only other thing I said was hopefully Hamas and Hezbollah fighters haven't crossed our wide open borders, especially since Hezbollah consider the US just as responsible as Israel.
RUclips deletes comments like censorship is its job. You don’t even have to say anything “offensive” or vulgar just deletes them like clockwork.
@@hokiturmixhe had to repost and reword. Normies are not as susceptible to the alogorithm
Sam you couldn’t be any worse.
Noooo what a bad ending on an otherwise really good talk. What we are battling is "extremism?". The term "extremism" by itself has no meaning, it just means "high or highest degree (of something)." Is she saying then that what we are battling is "high degrees" of everything regardless of whether a thing is good or bad?
And Sam Harris is praising her for her conceptual clarity right after she used the biggest anti-concept of them all. That was kind of ironic😅.
So, it's very clear that this guest is one of the most qualified persons in our species in order to articulate the full spectrum of ideas as they relate to the concept of modern Israel. However, as a political scientist, I think her propensity to dig into how "Jew hatred" is the oldest in the world, I just know it can't be true. Humans have always just hated other humans for any part of their "other". It's not hatred, it's nature. If we started seeing people's hatred as properly categorized as nature versus nurture, then I think we could come to some very "just" conclusions.
I wish Sam would actually talk to well educated people who has different views on this issue.
On what points do you differ with Sam?
@samdg1234 This conflating of anti zionism with anti semitism and the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis government. In an earlier video a couple months ago the literally said it's was an "accident" that the idf targeted and drone strikes three aid trucks from the world kitchen organization. I expect that disgusting propaganda from Israeli officials not from a western educated liberal who proclaims to care about liberal societies who protect freedom and safety.
@@gregorycampbell9386 He never will. He didn't on Trump, he didn't on Covid, he didn't on vaccines. Why expect it now?
Well educated =/= honest and accurate.
If you disagree about Hamas's usage of human shields, or about Israel's right to act in self defense, or about the fact that Israel gives equal rights to all its citizens whilst being forced to host millions of refugees within its borders pending the creation of state that would serve no other purpose than to destroy theirs.
It doesn't much matter what you're credentials are. We have to debate solutions based on the actual facts.
@@infidelheretic923 👍
🙏🇮🇱🙏
Flatten Zionism
I’ve been a follower of Harris for years, but this video made my blood boil. There’s just too much wrong with it to even bring up. His blindness to the crimes of Israel is genuinely making me consider the distinct possibility that he is an officer or agent of Mossad.
Oh, this is going to be good!
I hope to not be labeled as antisemitic for asking this question. Your guest mentioned that the UN created a second entity related to refugee status especially for Palestinians and characterized it as ridiculous for refugee status to be handed down generationally. If it is wrong to regard Palestinians as ongoing refugees, why is it correct to regard modern Jews as having a claim to the land that is now Israel? You both mention double standards as problematic. Isn’t this an example of that? Palestinians shouldn’t be handing down their refugee status, but Jews should be handing down land claims from antiquity?
Wow! I've never heard anyone, including leading thinkers and intellectuals, make the point you just did. Every now and then, I am rewarded for reading the comments.
Jews weren't refugees since the antiquity. Wherever they went, they integrated into the society, learned the language and became citizens. In the Roman Empire, Arab caliphates, ottoman empire, Europe, United States....etc. Yes in their heart they wanted to come back but it didn't paralyze their life. Palestinians are thrown to the side of society in Arab countries and live in refugee camps, most of the time without local citizenship only for the purpose of serving as a political weapon. That's very different.
In much of Europe, from the late 1800s to the end of World War 2, Jews were refugees fleeing persecution and genocide. Before then, they were citizens of the respective countries in which they lived and were not considered refugees. When they escaped Europe, many Jews fled to British-mandated Palestine, however, many more migrated elsewhere and became citizens of those respective countries. There were also 800,000 Jews who were forcibly exiled from all Arab countries after 1948. Nevertheless, once these Jewish refugees were settled they became citizens of these new countries and were no longer refugees. In the case of the Palestinians, there is not a single Arab country that grants Palestinian refugees citizenship, even if they have lived in that country for 4 or 5 generations. This is done for political reasons to ensure that Palestinians have permanent refugee status with the aim of keeping their cause alive and with the cynical intention of ultimately returning all Palestinian 'refugees', all 6 million of them, to Israel to overwhelm the region with sheer numbers.
Palestinians have been given multiple chances over the years to have their own state. Their governments threw these chances away--they want the whole thing. I don't even see what point you are driving at; that even the Jews' ancient ties with the land somehow don't mean anything, that they have no right to be there? Why should the ancient claim to the land not mean anything? How could it not, against constant accusations that the Jews "stole" their own homeland? And there are already plenty of Arab/Palestinian Israeli citizens...
@@dannyurbinder5965Yes. "The palestians", a people that didn't exist before the state of Israel was formed, are pawns used by Arab states to keep the conflict going.
While I generally find Harris’s analysis of various subjects to be accurate or at least balanced, his one-sided commentary on the Israel-Palestine conflict is disappointing and confounding. While Hamas’s atrocities are indefensible, this doesn’t exempt Israel’s response from criticism and the question of whether they are committing war crimes and even potential genocide given many of the actions of the IDF and statements of Israel’s extremist government. And it’s hard to argue that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank does not raise the question of apartheid. Rather than an interview with an Israeli politician who mouths the same talking points as Harris, I would LOVE to hear Harris in conversation with articulate Jews like Gabor Mate, Naomi Klein, Gideon Levy and many others who have credibly criticized the Israeli regime but who can’t be accused of anti-semitism.
Gabor mate is a self hating Jew. I would take any of these arguments seriously if you could demonstrate how this is actually apartheid and why non of you are one whit about the other 2,000,0000 actual refugees in the world today
Have you heard his conversation with Rory Stewert?
Thank you. I'm generally speaking a Sam Harris fan as well. (I like his position against Jordan Peterson, Donald Trump, and the woke-part of the left). That being said, Sam Harris almost never directly assign blame of the constantly expanding territory against Israel.
Sam Harris rarely mentioned that Palestinians tried being moderate and elected Arafat who signed osla accord with israel. The accord recognized the legitimacy of israel, the mutual recognition of current/to-be-enforeced borders, and the mutual fight against terrorism.
Both parties blamed each other for the breaking of the accord...
But "According to various reports, including those by the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics and international organizations, Israeli settlements in the West Bank expanded significantly in the years following the Oslo Accords. For example, from 1993 to 2000, the number of Israeli settlers in the West Bank nearly doubled from about 110,000 to approximately 200,000... successive Israeli governments continued to approve and support settlement construction and expansion...."
While "The period following the Oslo Accords saw fluctuations in the number of terrorist attacks against Israeli targets. While there were periods of relative calm, there were also significant spikes in violence" carried out by Hamas and other jihad group that are not supported by the Palestinian government"
Israel is probably more at fault at breaking the peace deal which pushed palestinian to resort to more radical political party like Hamas. Even israel is not more at fault, it is for sure far from mostly innocent.
My criticism against Israel here, is not anti-semitism. However, the house passed a bill to congress and it which would categorize what I said here as anti-semitism. You should talk about this, but you don't.
sometimes there IS one side... you dont have to force yourself to see two rights in every story, against the sense and reasoning of the story. no one tried to find the "other side" after 911. funny that, only when it comes to Israel are people even looking for it.
what about nazi germany? no one makes the case today that the allies were great and all, but let us discuss whether it was really justified to fight the genocidal, conquering force of hitler's germany without first "understanding" their reasons. how unbalanced of us. oh please. its that simple: this is a war of light against darkness. of good vs evil. you can ask questions, but if you are honest, you are not going to get many good answers on the "palestinian" side.
@@belle326
"sometimes there IS one side"
The point is this issue is not an one-side issue, at least not one-side on a superficial level. There are obvious strong arguments against Israel. Regardless if those arguments are right or wrong, you need to at least address them, instead of ignoring them while claiming it is one sided.
Yes it is wrong for palestinian to be radicals and to most support Hamas. However, Palestinians have been moderates before. Palestinians elected Arafat who made the oslo accord with Israel. In oslo accord, Israel promised the designed border, Palestine promised to fight against terrorism, Palestine recognized Israel.
Each side blame the other for the breaking of the accord. However, from what I read, Israel is more at fault. Palestine government fought against terrorism and reduced it overall without occational spike. Israel didn't even make expanding settlement illegal, as the settlement population doubled.
Imagine what would you do as Palestinians? You tried electing moderate candidate who made a deal with Israel, yet Israel keep on expanding. What would you do? It is very understandable for Palestinian to elect radicals given what Israel had done.
Regardless if the morality here is superficially two sided, or actually two sided. The above palestinian-favoring complication has to be talked about. You can't pretend it is a one sided issue without directly addressing and resolving the above. Sam Harris is guilty of this.
I was just reading the comments on a FB post which started off as poking relatively harmless fun at Brits on July 3rd, saying "Have fun at work tomorrow" from America. The discussion was quite sensible and non-adversorial, talking about American workers rights and the American political system and of course that we're having a general election today in the UK (4th July 2024). Someone said that we're chucking out the Tories - the Conservative Party - which is the expectation. And THEN, someone replied and said "but replacing them with Starmer [Keir Starmer, the leader of the Labour Party] "the Zionazi".
There you have it, the rot is complete in the UK!
And now, on Hearts of Space...
Sam, how do you not realize that this line of reasoning is pure propaganda meant to shut down any criticism of Zionism?
He realizes it just fine. He also knows it's effective. Lying is something *you* aren't supposed to do, but it's fine for him.
"Anti-Zionism Is Antisemitism" Really Sam, so are these terms now interchangeable? I think not. Please examine your definition of antisemitism. You are well aware that all Palestinians are Semites.
Got another one that didn't listen to the podcast. Thanks for your deeply uninformed commentary.
@@mdgprogrammerif anything Palestinian are more Semitic because they didn't leave for centuries. That's why most western jews just look white. Because they are.
Of course, criticism of Israeli policies are fine. rejecting Israel's existence as a whole no matter what they do, aka antizionism you're either ignorant of the world or an antisemite.
Yes, Sam = Greenblatt.
Let me ask you a question,
Have you visited an Arab country , even a liberal one ,I.e Say Morocco?
Pretend that you are one of them and you will hear shit that will make you lose sleep at night.
Yes antizionism is new hatred so much that for weak heart will send you to a mental institution
17:16
Perfectly said.
Tutsis in Rwanda experienced something of a sudden hostile environment in the 1990s
She is sooooooo well spoken and in her zone. Bravo!!!!!
She sounds zealous and angry...
It's a pity she had no cogent arguments to make, only rhetoric, assertions, and appeals to emotion.
I would say Sam's omission of why he took 6+ months to release this episode speaks to his uneasiness of how this episode went astray in demonstrating any semblance of a conversation.
So being labelled Islamaphopic is bad when you criticised Islam.
But you're ok with people being called Antisemitic for being critical for Isreal ?.... come on Sam youre better than this.
Bla bla bla how annoying the crying out in pain as they strike.
For the point of the stones there to protect synagogues.
That's only true of america.
In europe we have those everywhere to protect everyone from... people in the habit of driving cars and trucks in crowds.
Google the concrete lion statues of stockholm for an example.
In Europe, synagogues are usually hidden on side-streets and have a full-blown security detail. I would encourage you to try to show up for Shabbat (Saturday) services at a synagogue in your city without making a reservation and surrendering your passport to see just how protected they need to be.
@@oremfrien nah, not trying that, here the big one is on a large plaza, and there have been cop trucks parked in front of it for as long as i can remember
and know there are stylish metal fences all around
some kid showed up with a knife that he started rubbing against the fences after 7/10
@@namenloss730 Now compare that setup with the way that a person can freely enter large churches or mosques in your city. There is a reason for that.
Sam Harris was discussing a large synagogue in New York to provide relative context because most people have no idea how worried about security and attack Jews are.
@@oremfrien I wasn't disgreeing with him, just pointing out that the issue is way worse in europe, where the jews need protection actively from certain groups, but basically everyone also needs some of that protection against those certain groups.
or as a european politician has said (paraphrasing)
"the religion of peace has given europe concrete blocs and retractable bollards"
Criticism of a political ideology is bigotry! I wonder if Sam remembers when he was on the opposite end of such nonsense. Sam started sliding downhill in 2017 and has been racing to the bottom since 2020.