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How Do Zenkai Boosts Work In Dragon Ball Z?
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- Опубликовано: 17 мар 2023
- How Do Zenkai Boosts Work In Dragon Ball Z? @LSMMIKE explains in this video.
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In DBZ: Lose an important battle and barely survive? Come back stronger!
In DBS: Get mildly exhausted and take a breather? Get hundreds of times stronger!
Some parts of DBZ were ridiculous, bit cool. DBS is simply bad. Not cool, not entertaining
@Pativo i love it when DB fans like you just lie in random comments sections. It's so entertaining.
@@BlackKnightsCommander me when I spread misinformation online 🤭
DBS: Go from super saiyan to super saiyan 2 in 5 or less minutes!
@BlackKnightsCommander out of curiosity, what did he lie about? That dragonball was supposed to end after Frieza? That is actually true. That's why he left it open ended as to whether or not Goku survived the exploding Namek at the end of the episode with the frieza fight conclusion. Akira Toriyama has said as much
Saiyans are the living embodiment of the phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
I always had the theory that zenkais are the saiyans way of getting closer to becoming a super saiyan. It explains why they are never mentioned again after characters become a super saiyan. When Goku arrives to fight frieza vegeta states that he has finally transcended his limit of a low class warrior. Like the saiyan body has an inherent limit of how much power their body can handle and that Goku had surpassed that limit which would then make his body ready to handle the power of a super saiyan. I obviously dont believe this is fact, just a fun theory I thought up. And dont mention Super to me, it retconned everything and doesn't mean anything to the original story.
Yeah, I've also heard this theory, too. It kinda explains Goku's OP "Zenkai", from him being only 90k (although, with the Kaioken, his actual max power was around 900k), to having a power level of 3 millions. The theory I read basically said that, when Goku left the healing pod, he had already "unlocked" his Super Saiyan form; he only needed something to trigger the transformation.
There's retcons to this. Zenkai Boosts are meant to get a Saiyan to what was considered "maximum" of a older Super Saiyan descendent at first.
This was the main topic in the Namek saga, for each time the Saiyan kept reviving, they kept getting closer to what Freeza feared most, the Super Saiyan max (not the form itself, just *bodily ready* to handle the form).
At the Cell Saga, it is implied that in the Time Chamber, Goku reached his physical limit. By physical limit? It means the _pinnacle_ of a Super Saiyan 1, and that's around Goku's SSJ form 3. After that, Goku found he just didn't go up further, it's why he rejected going back in the Time Chamber again, because from there on he'd only gain very little. The Super Saiyan max was reached, implying that the first (legendary) Super Saiyan only ever reached _this_ max, hence the emphasis to go *beyond Super Saiyan* that entire saga. After this, Zenkai Boosts no longer truly existed, for they met the criteria of the first Saga, first paragraph above this.
However, if at any given time, the Saiyan _forgets_ how to fight, or he gets weaker after reaching a new peak? Lets say they reached double Goku's Saiyan max of around Cell somehow? They can actually now Zenkai Boost to get their body to *remember* their old strength. This is why Gohan can actually Zenkai Boost very easily after forgetting how to fight, right back up to old max, in a day.
This is brought up again with Zamasu, who in Goku's body, that body had _forgotten_ its old max due to it being stolen. Now Zamasu can Zenkai Boost that body to get it back to the max Goku had before, even Zenkai Boost to get it to remember older forms. Even Ginyu went through this.
To recap, Zenkai Boost is to get any Saiyan warrior to remember the old strength dormant within their bodies, whether it's a max hidden strength within their blood, or any new max they reach if they happen to surpass even that hidden strength but forget.
The retcon in question is that "the old Super Saiyan max" is now out the window with the introduction of Broly, setting a new benchmark to what the Legendary Super Saiyan is, which Zenkai Boosts were meant to boost any Saiyan's body to remember the old legend, but then didn't.
I think the requirements for becoming a super saiyan, is to get in touch with your feelings (something Saiyans, never do) bardock was able to become a ssj and take on 1st form frieza's ancestor. Keep in mind bardock was way below 100k there.
"Here's a kooky theory I made up but don't bring up the actual story to me cause I don't like it" 😂
@@JayFreely 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣 you must be 5 years old
I was never confused that goku got such a monster zenkai boost on namek. He had trained his body to handle a lot more energy than he was currently able to put out, the zenkai boost probably went off his kaioken max power of 900k instead of his normal 90k. You have to train your body to handle more power, if you dont then you end up like full power frieza with bulging muscles and low stamina since your body can't handle the power. And goku had massively trained his body so his zenkai filled that body with all the power that he could handle.
Good point
It wasn't known if he could use the kaioken x10, I do think a could pull off a hypothetical x5
@@trisxart2393 he says himself on the ship he can do kaioken x10
Why do people think he was only 90k upon arriving at Namek?
@@shane7051 its a fact, dont say it like "people" are wrong. And because its officially stated
My proposition is that during recovery, the body senses the strongest hostile energy and tries to match the output. It doesn't give more energy, but burns more of what they have for stronger effect. This explains why when Vegeta was healed on Namek he gained less of a boost than Goku did.
that shit got out of hand so quick no wonder zenkais got introduced then subsequently dropped so quick lmao
@@randomt800kiddo2 Untill Goku Black
When vegeta was getting healed freiza was in his 3rd form so maybe it tried to match that power
@@yeetyeet5079 yep💯
@@traineryvar7123 yeah, like didn't he get a zenkai from just stabbing his hand?
It just hit me that Gohan might be afraid of becoming stronger and not necessarily that he doesn't want to be a fighter. He has seen how he starts behaving when he is clearly the most powerful one and he doesn't like it or fears he could become a villain because that is exactly how he acts wanting to punish and humiliate the opponent.
That was so very unlike him in Cell saga.
@@goldinthefurnace The Cell Saga is really when we start seeing it.
@@J-Wheeler-G the only way I can justify this new Beast Gohan
@@goldinthefurnace is clearly not. The only two times Gohan could defeat a enemy was against Cell and Super Buu, and in both times he tried to humiliate the enemy. Before Cell, Gohan never had the power to completely defeat a enemy.
i mean...is there a significant difference between Gohan and Vegeta when they have the upper hand? talking smack, humiliating, getting sloppy and allowing the villains to get the better of them...
I'm just, saiyan, that's... Saiyan behaviour.
You could say, Saiyans are villains by nature then, sure.
Side rant. When Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, and Gohan got SS1, it felt earned because of their battle hardened lifestyle. But after Goten and Trunks got it, SS1 lost all meaning to me. Also, SS2 was the best transformation.
Ssj 2 should have been what a mastered ssj was. Because as the series went on, there was no way to really tell the difference between the 2 forms besides the lightening and hair bangs. In my opinion, goku should have been the one to push cell to the limits and then die...and leave gohan to finish the battle as he unlocks ssj in his rage form.
@@masterkc I 100% agree with you
Honestly, I feel like Future Tunks coming to the past and having SSJ already was a bit of the part where SSJ was starting to lose it's importance. I'd say the other beside Goku who truly earned SSJ was Vegeta.
@@masterkc that wasn’t the point of that arc
False, SSJ4 was the best!
The active threat theory would make sense with why Saiyans want to fight strong opponents, especially significantly above themselves. Because surviving it would be exactly how they get stronger.
But this doesn't explain why they're so weak relative to people like Dodoria and Zarbon
@@Vivi_9it's possible that Frieza nerfed them and so did King Vegeta. King Vegeta kills the saiyans that are potentially stronger than him and his bloodline. Also I believe that the saiyans haven't been facing stronger opponents and they conquered them with ease.
@@Vivi_9because normally it takes months to heal from almost death injuries, and saiyans mostly fought vs opponents they could easily beat to conquer planets.
They would also sleep instead of train in the freeza army pods.
If they were actively training by fighting strong opponents and then healed back by freeza's army technology they would all be at least in ginyu's lv
I have my own theory on zenkai boosts: They are extremely strong when you are healed with a new method, and their effectiveness falls off as you are healed with this method over and over. This is consistent with every zenkai boost we see.
Vegeta only powered up slightly with his zenkais in the healing chamber, but when he's healed by the Senzu bean, he powers up immensely. And when he's healed by Dende, a huge power up again. When Goku is healed in the chamber, again a huge boost. But future Senzu bean usage doesn't really lead to much zenkai boosts anymore. This is consistent with the fact that Goku wasn't powering up much in original DB - despite his constant near death battles and training he wasn't anymore near Raditz when he came.
Seismic toss is a fixed damage move so it doesn’t take into account type advantages
I was referencing the anime version.
It's a Pokemon reference
@@loosetube5417 i think they'd already know that if one of them is the guy who made the original joke and the other one has a charizard pfp
@@MSCDonkeyKong 😂
You felt the need to explain this lol
I'm never sure how I'll feel about youtubers after they start recording themselves after using avatars or just having images of the content without them in it for a long time. Usually I hate it, cause the visual never matches the imagination. And while it doesn't here, I kinda really like it with you. Your face really shows your passion for dragonball and I feel it adds to your videos since you often bring up how you're feeling about the topics. Feels a lot more like talking to a friend about their hobbies than someone just talking to a camera that I'm seeing, even if that is literally what you're doing. I appreciate your subtle facial expressions and willingness to not try to constantly be moving all over and presenting yourself in a clean and well manicured way. Much respect.
This reminds me of what happened in Dragon Ball Super.
That's exactly what goes on in the Granola arc. Granola wishes to be the strongest in the Universe and because Goku and Vegeta could sense that level of power, they were able to keep up with Gas.
Frieza was in a different Universe while those wishes were made and so his power at that time wasn't taken into consideration.
This is my exact theory as well
I dont think its a zenkai anymore, remember that zenkais only work when they recover from a near death experience but they changed it. Now, instead of getting zenkai, they get stronger as the fight progresses. Oh and limit break as Vegeta stated in TOP
Saiyan cells are broken. If a saiyan gets injured near the point of death, they get stronger. They train, push their muscles to the limit, they get stronger. They fight long enough, they get stronger. If they rest as hard as they train, they get stronger. Any time Goku and Vegeta are itching for a fight that might kill them, its not really a selfish desire. It's literally in their DNA to improve and overcome any challenge until failure. Broly is the same. He just gets zenkais passively.
I always thought of it like characters can feel how a stronger opponent's ki functions in some way, and that is what explains how everyone in the cast can skyrocket into the millions after centuries of the universe's greatest fighters barely hitting 10 to 20k. Headcanon stuff. Surprised to hear someone else felt the same general thing.
I always appreciate when you watch and leave your thoughts on my videos. This is something I've had in mind for a long time and finally got to put into a video. It's cool to know you had a similar idea.
A 45 minutes video about something that Toriyama never fully explained? I’m in, man. Awesome.
Don't forget most sayains used scouters and couldn't sense power levels so when getting a zenkai boost they could only level up to a level of an opponent they actually battled. Goku could actually sense power levels that's why he got such a huge boost to beat Frieza on Namek.
@@deckzone3000 because if the zenkai was making them as strong as their greatest threat they could only level up to an opponent they'd physically felt the strength of and survived a near death injury against in battle but Goku who could feel the ki of Frieza when in the healing tank could potentially, if this theory applies, level up to a greater strength than Frieza which gives him a massive advantage.
@@deckzone3000 yeah, essentially through sensing ki, it allows Goku's Saiyan Body to feel the power of his enemy
There is a power level for Gohan in the saiyan saga: 2800. Of course, that was when he was using the Masenko, so it may have been elevated somewhat, similar to Goku's kamehameha against Raditz. Gohan was also benefitting from a rage boost. I believe he should be able to access his rage boost strength in his oozaru form, supported by Piccolo's reaction to Gohan's first transformation, but you might disagree. Finally, Gohan was severely injured before he transformed, which would probably weaken him. That would put his oozaru form at a power level of 28000 at very best, but very possibly quite a bit weaker.
A ki technique can multiply someone power by like 2 - 2.5 so he's most likely around 1400 in powerlevel.
Vegeta also did match his Galick gun against Goku despite Goku in kaiokent x3 is more powerful so I guess it does so his Galick gun is atleast 24k.
I went in skeptical of your theory, but you made a really good case for it and you sold me. Good job man! Highly doubt this was what was planned when he was writing it, but it does appear to have worked out that way in the original manga.
Were you around in the early days of the English Internet Dragonball fandom? If so, you'd remember that the Daizenshuus when first fan-translated (before officially translated) made a mistake and made 100% Freeza have a power level of 12 million rather than 120 million (and Goku at the time 15 million rather than 150 million). I know it was an error but part of me still thinks that would've solved so much. It's basically impossible to justify Goku going from 90k to 3 million due to his recovery tank, but 90k to 300k would've been easy to justify. Freeza at 12 million also makes everything so much more compact than at 120 million. Your discussion here about Goku in the recovery tank got me thinking about this.
Vegeta's base power level was 18 but he's attack was 24 then ob namek he's base 24. Zenkai boost Saiyan's base to their maximum and maximum is doubled or tripled.
Mike... Frieza in 2nd form was not caught off guard by Vegeta's blast... He he had his guard up all around him cause he knew Vegeta was still there and was looking for ever opportunity. There's been instances of guard being down doing extra damage before this such as when Vegeta had O-Gohan fall on him. He let it down for a moment and then he realized Gohan was gonna fall on him. That's why he looked so surprised and got so damaged; as a smaller aped and receding in size/power Gohan shouldn't have hurt him so bad at that point with how much power he had. He had enough to survive a MSBomb and throw out a DDisk. Also, when Gohan kicked Dedoria, he was clearly damaged way more than Gohan should've been able to muster, even with a rage boost. Even if Gohan was half Dedoria power (which he wasn't), a kick like that wouldn't have made him bleed, he would've clear tanked it.
Frieza even turns around Cell style (Or, I guess... Cell turns around Frieza style?... 🤔), and tells Vegeta not to get ahead of him self and that they would have time to play. He 100% read Vegeta here.
Just note.
Great video. Also I did remember that toriyama said in a super interview referring to battle of gods, as the fight goes on saiyans grow stronger
I think power levels are somewhat logarithmic, and they only take into account raw strength. They're associated with things like speed, but you don't necessarily have to have a high power level to be fast, and sometimes huge power can be slow. For example, the Ultra Super Saiyan "form" is incredibly slow but insanely powerful.
With that in mind, consider Piccolo destroyed the moon at a power level of roughly 1500-2000, while Frieza destroyed a planet at nearly full power (at least 60,000,000 or so). How is it possible that it takes 40,000x the amount of power to destroy the moon as it does to destroy a planet? Well, with traditional numbers you have no sane answer. But if you assume the scale is more logarithmic, and that a power level of 60 million is only around 100x as powerful as a power level of 2,000, it makes more sense. This is also how it has to work because characters who are several hundred or even several thousand times outclassed can sometimes trade blows. Gohan at a stated (angered) PL of 200k knocked down Frieza at just over a million. That only makes sense if Gohan was around 80% of Frieza's strength, not 20%.
My hypothesis is as follows: Zenkai is offset by the healing time normally. During a lengthy recovery time, whatever power boost the Saiyans would normally receive diminishes greatly, but things like the tanks or Dende or Senzu's makes that recovery time super, super short - and so it makes the power boost much, much greater than it *should* be for how close to death they got.
It's not a perfect hypothesis, and there's likely more to it than that... but isn't that what a hypothesis is for?
I think this makes sense-it even meshes with Super, where an immortal Kai simply hurting themselves and instantly recovering grants them power. I imagine Saiyan healing is pretty overdriven already, so maybe it’s got something to do with that-it’s like, the natural recovery plus the unnatural recovery.
Long story short, they don't work unless Toriyama remembers them and wants them to work. You know how many problems could have been solved just by using Zenkai Boosts?
There's a lot of things I like about Dragon Ball's mechanics, the Ki sense, the Battle Aura the release of energy but the Zenkai is not only broken in terms of execution, I mean, get a healer like Dende and some Saiyans and Frieza is wrecked, but is also is very easy to use, Gohan just went almost even to Frieza in each of their forms when he got the Zenkai and he barely can use his powers.
Dodoria: "You and I can team up and rule the universe... as husband and wife!"
Vegeta: "Repressing in 5...4...3..."
20:34 it exactly means that Goku could use a bigger Kaioken multipier, just like against Vegeta, for a short period of time if he wanted to.
Great video! Yeah it's funny that vegeta still references frieza's ability to transform without Zarbon telling him
"Because Ridley Scotts' about to sue someone, apparently".
Mike, you've been watching too much TFS.
And we're totally down for it.
My personal take is that their powers get boosted in response to the present threat. Let's say that at rest they output 50% of their power. Let's say, in a fight, they output 100% of their power. In response to the present threat, be it a strong opponent or a crippling injury, their power output rises to 300% to combat it. Then, that 300% becomes the new 100%, making what was once 150% of their power the new baseline of 50%.
TL;DR: As the ceiling of their power rises, so does their floor.
I had a similar theory. Gokus body sensing frieza on namek let it get a zenkai scaled to around third form frieza
I theorize Toriyama gave up caring for power scaling when they added the Z to the title
Stupid
7:00 Gohan was stated to be at 981. Considering he had already taken a lot of damage when he bacame Oozaru he should be weaker than that. 40:00 Self destruction is always stronger than regular ki attacks even if the person who does it is weaker. 16 thought he could kill Perfect Cell with it, Vegeta was able to blow Buu to pieces.
I can understand not originally wanting to show your face online but its cool you have switched to this.
You definitely have a face for the camera and are quite handsome. Your voice and expressiveness go well together.
Always enjoyed your takes on anime and find that while I agree with you most of the time there are still those times where you go places I hadn't thought of or challenge what I might think is true. Usually you convert me to your point of view in the process.
I appreciate the work you do and its provided me with hours of enjoyment. Dragon ball content can be pretty cringy and bro centric and you provide an alternative for that. Definitely a credit to the fandom.
FREIZA DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HE WASN'T UP AGAINST THE NORMAL SAIYAN WARRIOR!!!
HE'S BECOME A LEGEND!!
Theory: Goku gained such a huge Zenkai Boost because Vegeta was the person beating on him. After Vegeta ate the Senzu Bean, following his battle with Recoome, he was around as strong as First Form Frieza.
Argument: Goku wasn't as strong as Cpt Ginyu, before he fought him, so Goku got a HUGE boost from Vegeta. If you include Goku's Kaioken x20 that he was able to sustain from the 100x Gravity training, then his power jump makes Complete sense.
Mike... thanks for coming back. You look and sound great. One of the first RUclips channels I ever subscribed to in 2015 I believe!
Zenkai boosts are simple. It was a way for the writers to have characters meet the same power level as their rivals or enemies with little to no training.
Why did Goku get the best zenkai boosts?
It's the Goku show.
Why did Vegeta get more zenkai boosts as the show went on?
Because it became the Goku and Vegeta show.
Why did Piccolo get his fusion power ups?
Because they needed someone to fill in the gap.
The Saiyans still get zenkai boosts long after becoming Super Saiyans as well, which people seem to miss.
It's just a plot mechanic to keep the Saiyans as the main protagonists.
Super, of course, just amps everyone up to whatever level they wanted them to be at, but as far as Z goes, my aforementioned comment is how it is.
Just found you and love the videos so far, as a manga fan I also love that you use and dissect the panels
Anime Zarbon absolutely told Vegeta that Frieza can transform, at least in Kai. Idk about Z.
Headcanon is that Broly has a mutated passive zenkai as he powers up/gets angry
12:58 You mention when Goku got wrecked by King Piccolo..
But what about the time Mercenary Tao almost killed Goku at the base of Corrin Tower?
Exactly 💯
your videos are awesome!!! i allways look forward to your next upload 😁
Let me tell you something that will surprise you.
You can transform?
I can tranf-
Okay what the fck
Dodoria told me, then I threw a dog treat at him, true story.
Just want to say I been binging your videos and you’re the man
I really don't understand why they don't make scouters that go up to 100,000's. They are aware of people with power levels over 9999, and 999,999 would still be lower than Freiza can reach in one transformation, allowing him to still impress if he ever had to do so
It's also fatal to the eye when it explodes 😂, I'm still surprised they scratched that off safely.
Imagine if Buu absorbed a pure-blooded Saiyan and got a zenkai boost every time he regenerated his entire body.
Here's the thing with Kaio Ken: It's a short burst, a VERY short burst. So yeah, Goku's power level WAS over 30000 when he hit Kaio x4 against Vegeta, but that 30k was also decreasing rapidly as soon as he did the technique. It's good to think of power levels as a health metric as much as a strength metric.
When it comes to Zenkais, I don't think its more of a multiplier so much as it's a new level. Gotta keep in mind that before he fought Goku, Vegeta got at most one zenkai and even that is arguable. Goku already got dozens and dozens of zenkais before he entered adulthood. If it was a multiplier, Goku would have been a super saiyan before Dragon Ball ended. Before the fight with Piccolo.
Goku had 8k powerlevel so if we multiply that by 4, he'd be 32k.
Actually I've been an advocate of the activate threat theory since the old days (though it wasn't called that) Zenkai for Black Goku only makes sense if his body is younger which it is with Goku and Vegeta starting off stronger than him which they do.
12:45
That is absolutely NOT a retcon. The fight with Tao Pai Pai is a VERY good example. Goku straight up schools him in their second encounter, with Tao Pai Pai saying "this isn't the same boy I fought earlier." It is almost documented that Goku has been getting dozens and dozens of zenkais literally since birth. In fact, the very first zenkai Goku gets is when he falls off a cliff when he was a newborn.
It's why Vegeta is so surprised at him. Goku's power level was 1 when he was born: Vegeta was born with a level of 10k. In order for Goku to even sniff his older brother's power level of 1500, he would have had to probably get at least a dozen or so zenkais if zenkais are described as a multiplier (which I doubt they are).
By the time he confronts the Ginyus, Vegeta has gotten exactly two zenkais that we know of: From his fight with Goku and from his fight with Zarbon. If he got just one more, he would have beaten all five with next to no effort. That's the difference between Goku and Vegeta: Vegeta was able to attain a power level above 200k from THREE zenkais. Took Goku practically his whole life and just about twenty or so zenkais.
Imagine if real life was like this, instead of brain damage the boxers who got hit the hardest would come back with more power. I love how you phrased everything, especially the active threat part, where basically if the body was durable enough to survive the damage then it heals in proportion to whatever it received *and sensed at that time. Durability being usually higher than power output also explains why you can get a boost that makes you better than a previously stronger opponent (although I guess you could argue saiyans are glass canons but I wouldn't and that's not my point). It also lines up with the idea that even if you put yourself through really brutal training it's always easier to let someone else f you up than to fully f yourself up. And I mean training not self harm, which wont work although it arguably should, but that would hurt the plot. Also the no self-harm rule opens the door to a mystical element to the zenkai, or at least alludes the spiritual aspect of chi, which is cool too.
I would love for you to do what if Goku actually got all the zenkais in Dragon Ball if they were actually a thing in the original Dragon Ball and how powerful he would be starting in Dragon Ball Z if we did get the zenkais
And I mean in the original manga an anime and even the filler and movies and and find out how strong he would actually be using all of these and having all of them be Cannon and finding a way to make them all Cannon to find how strong he would actually be
The Zenkai retcon for og DB never really bothered me, its the type of retcon that can fit in fine, unlike many others.
In the Japanese anime Zarbon did bring up freeza's transformation.
Zenkai Boost, to me, is a high level of adaptability. Everytime the Saiyan was nearly killed and survived, they experience an explosive burst of adaptation.
Vegeta had taken so much punishment: Kaioken x3, Kaioken Kamehameha, extreme fatigue from losing his Oozaru form, the Fusion Genki Dama, and being crushed by Oozaru Gohan. Upon gaining a Zenkai boost, he is more faster, durable and can now sense Ki. This is due of being struck by so many deadly attack, can barely keep up with Goku at Kaioken x3, and was repeatedly blindsided by unseen attacks.
When he recovers from Zarbon and Reacoome, Vegeta got tougher, stronger and has greater chi since Reacoome was unphased by all chi attack.
Unfortunately his last Zenkai didn't grant more powers because Frieza was heavily surpassed. If he had knew Frieza is 120,000,000 of Large Planet Buster level, his body would've gain a massive boost to match him. But Frieza is at 2%, he only doubles in powers. Goku reached 3,000,000 because Frieza is at 4% and the Zenkai grants that big boost upon sensing that chi.
For Goku Black, the Zenkai are used for Black to adapt himself spiritually. Each time he adapted, he's accessing more and more of Goku's full power, until he's equivalent to Super Saiyan 2 Goku (or maybe SSj3). After losing to SSj2 Vegeta and got healed by Future Zamasu, Black can now access Super Saiyan Full Power state.
However when he's defeated by SSj Blue Vegeta, the last Zenkai reconnect his Godly Chi, as his soul and body are now synchronized. That enables SSj Rosé, which it's stronger then Blue because of being a natural god instead of a mortal using Godly Chi.
However, i got confused when Shin stated Goku and Vegeta can't exploit more Zenkai because they're at the limit of their potential. Which it's why Super is known for infamous retcon.
And yes, i used the manga version since the anime had Black spam Zenkai nonstop everytime he gets slightly overwhelmed. That's not how it works, Toriyama!
The Kanzenshuu is a great source for any DB Fan to find interviews
People tend to forget this because one is usually mixed with the other in the story but, there are actually TWO ways that saiyans can gain significant increases in power: One is the aforementioned Zenkai where a saiyan's biology forces them to adapt to any immediate threat and/or come back stronger from any near-fatal trauma. The second one is mentioned less most of the time, rage....or more specifically, extreme emotional trauma. The story tends to focus in on rage as a trigger but other extreme emotions such as grief and fear can also play a role because it feeds the resultant rage. In short, I see it like this: Zenkais serve to increase the base strength of an individual proportional to the level of physical trauma inflicted but can have diminishing returns once a saiyan reaches a certain plateau. Rage/extreme emotional distress, however is a gateway for a saiyan to not increase their base strength, but instead access hidden reservoirs of power they normally cannot handle/control. This is why zenkais are more permanent (see Goku and Vegeta in Frieza saga) while rage boosts, while more potent at times, are not permanent until the person learns to control that level of power (see Gohan and Broly). The biggest advantage is that both can work in tandem with each other and can either produce a battle-hardened warrior who is essentially broken (Goku and Vegeta), a person who can become an unstoppable force when sufficiently triggered (Broly and Gohan) or some mix of both.
28:59 har har har. Toriyama wrote Resurrection F too. The difference is that Goku actively reduces his power when he no longer sees a threat.
I really like the active threat theory but I feel like it has a couple of holes (though I think they're really more holes in toriyama's writing which can't be reconcilled):
1) When Vegeta recovered from his fight on earth, he was no where near goku, so our very first instance of a zenkai seems to establish that zenkais, if they are based on your opponents power level, are not effected by the power level of those around you when your recovering, but rather only apply to the opponent who put you in that near death state.
2) Goku got major boosts from nearly dying 4 times in the gravity chamber, but the gravity chamber has no power level (presumably) and was not getting stronger, so even if we assume a sayians body can quantity "gravity" as an active threat and give it a power level, the very first zenkai at max gravity should have immediately put goku at the max he could get from the chamber, yet the implication of Toriyama's omniscient narration is that each near death brush with the gravity chamber further boosted Goku.
3) When Vegeta fought Zarbon and lost, Frieza was already as much of an active threat as he was when he lost to Recoome, there was no clear reason (to me at least) for Vegeta to suddenly match up with Frieza after the Recoome fight that can't also be applied to his zarbon fight, yet he clearly didn't go up to half a million after the zarbon fight.
4) There is no implication that Gohan also was at half a million after the Recoome fight, despite gohan being put arguably closer to death then Vegeta was, and being more adept at that point at sensing power levels such as Friezas. It seems like Gohan and Vegeta should have been equal after this (and thoroughly unimpressed by goku's 180k if Frieza was viewed as the active threat by their bodies) if the active threat theory is correct.
5) Because the majority of Goku's beating came at the hands of Oozaru Vegeta, who, if guide books are to be believed was at 180k, it doesn't really make sense that goku didn't get a boost up to 180k. If we assume he didn't get a boost because when he healed there was no longer an active threat on earth, then Vegeta's first zenkai boost makes no sense since he was in the same situation.
I've always wondered why Vegeta and Goku dont fight each other to near death more often. Given that both love to fight and access to the hyperbolic time chamber, both should be unstoppable by the cell saga
They did but through their sons
Nobody talks about Gohan’s zenkais
1. after he lost to Nappa.
2. After Vegeta beats him up
3. After recoome
4. After Freeza beats him up
5. After being beat up by Fatt Buu
6. After being beat up by Buutenks
Not to mention Gohan’s rage confidence
I think the gist is the auto-induced Zenkai Boost, or even the one generated through "safe" training (like the HCoTaS ones), can only go for so long, when you have to defeat ridiculously stronger opponents, such as Cell and Buu. ZBs worked so much on Namek because Goku, Piccolo, and the Team Three Star were in actual, constant combat danger. Besides, it was the first arc all that universe logic was inherent to, while during the Cell and Buu sagas Saiyans and half-Saiyans got kind of acquainted to that frame of logic, thus psychologically more inclined to look for further transformations than to ZB power-ups.
Yajirobe also had a part in Vegeta’s zenkai boost.
DBZA: Vegeta "Sayains get stronger every time we heal from a near fatal wound"
Krillon: "I CALL HAX!!!"
20:30 -ish. I think it's fairly clear that the point about Goku using his power in bursts is him talking about how high he can crank it with a x8 or x10 boost for very short periods.
Before watching the video my head cannon was something similar to how our own bodies break and heal stronger than before but boosted to high degrees. Like when our bones break it heals stronger than before. But a saiyan when their bodies break it heals stronger than before for battle. Their cells, muscle tissues, bones and all.
Did Trunks and Goten get a zenkai boost when Majin Vegeta knocked them out?
How Much more powerful was Gohan when he was trying to destroy Majin Boo’s egg than when he was fighting Dabura ?
Zenkai boosts are great for a short term power boost but it's a Saiyans rage which unlocks our true power
35:14 "and then vegeta proceeds to utterly wreck him" lmao
The Zenkai boost in the Namek - Freeza saga was a huge plot hole for me, especially after Goku showed up to save the day again.
Before Super came around, I always assumed that strength/toughness of body and power level itself are separate concepts. Because of the kaioken, that implies that having more energy doesn't necessarily means that the body can handle it. But in reality, DBZ is a mess, power levels are bullshit and zenkais are plot convenience.
That nap did wonders for Vegeta 🤷
During the 3 year training period, Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta should have spammed the hell out of zenkai boosts.
My head cannon after the Saiyan saga was that Goku after his recovery was at 18,000 matching Vegeta. Just fits in well and nice starting point if someone ever does a what if Goku goes to Namek with Bulma, Gohan and Krillin. Powerful but not too powerful. Like he wouldn't stand a chance against Recoome for example.
This explains things because I’ve always thought it was just a weird plot device and questioned why they don’t just beat each other up to get stronger instead of training
You know if gohan and dende ever wanted to make a day of it they could probably make him into the most powerful being to ever exist.
This was a really fun video to watch. Thanks!
My favorite way it was summed up. Is the tfs scene with Jace and Vegeta.
zenkai boost are made of plotholenium and plotconviniancium
33:20
Death Beam.
He definitely got a zenkia after Tao. 3 days of training ain't gonna have no man ready to beat someone who just got done beating his breaks off that bad.
Gohans enraged Masenko was a 4000 BP, considering a 2x multiplier for Masenko it would make his base enraged form 2.000, considering he would be enraged fighting Vegeta it means his Oozaru would be 20.000 at best, Vegeta was heavily worn down yes, but the Oozaru was not over a x3 Kaioken from Goku.
Wait a minute if Goku's Kaio-ken took him to 180k then what would a times 2 take him to? I thought Kaio-ken (without multiplier) gave him a 50% boost and then x2 is 2 times, x3 is 3 times so on, so forth. So either here he used Kaio-ken x2 or he had a real BP of 120k and he was holding back and only showing 85k to Ginyu.
That's my theory as well. I think Goku was at 90k and did Kaio x2.
37:00
Goku rubs one out and blasts on friezas ship
GLEAM!
IM COMING GUYS JUST HANG ON!
doesnt pull up his pants
41:25 that FUTURE future Trunks!
Always thought the same about Zenkai, usually it works in equivalent to the enemy of turn, Vegeta to Goku on Earth, Vegeta again to Zaarbon second form, Vegeta again to Ginyu, then against first form Freeza.
So pretty much Goku post fight with Vegeta went from 8k to 20k plus
11:23 This is a VIZism, in the OG manga (and some localized versions) he says It would be troublesome if one of them would turn Super Saiyan"
And people think it doesn't make sense that he matched Freezer.. Goku was boosted from 85 - 90 k to at least 3 million in base after healing tank. Vegeta really needed that sleep though 🤷
Earth is the character that gets the biggest zenkai boosts. How many times have we been told that their powers are too strong and may blow up the planet (thinking of BOG in particular), yet with each new enemy and respective new Saiyan form, unless targeted directly, the Earth still lives on 😆
12:42 I always say that Goku got his first noteable zenkai boost from fighting general Tao that first time, rhen came back and wreck'd! I believe he also drank the sacred water.
It's crazy because if Goku's base power level against Frieza was 3 000 000 and final form Frieza was using 4 mil - 60 mil (3 - 50%) of his power against Goku, it makes sense why even at 10x Kaioken (30 Mil) goku was getting wrecked.
But if Goku pulled out 100x Kaiken at that point like he did in Movie 4 against Lord Slug, he's be twice as strong as he was as a super saiyan ( 2x 150 Mil = 300 Mil) essentially making him as powerful as he'd be in lowest form Super Saiyan 2. Which would still be strong enough to one shot 100% Full power 120 Mil Frieza.
Can't remember which dub did it but there is one dub where Future Trunks makes some comments during the Saiyan saga and he mentions Gohan's Oozaroo power lvl compared to injured Vegeta's power.
Just a coincidence that some boosts were more than others 🤷
It’s funny when piccolo calls frieza horn boy in the anime and frieza says what did you call me gomgoes to almost jujitsu style choke him.
Great analysis!
I really wish they would have scaled those power levels a little better.
What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger
LSM I started watching your videos many years ago and I assumed you never showed your face because you were a horrific gremlin. You are actually super good-looking so shame on me I guess
Remember, Goku used God Ki to heal a wound from Beerus. I believe by ToP, they were getting stronger during the fight because when they hit their limits, they healed a bit using God Ki which gave them Zenki boosts mid fight.
Gohan couldn't do this because he didn't have God Ki.