Just to clarify, we are not opposed to electric boating at all. As a society (and this includes the boating world) we will have to come up with ways to drastically cut our emissions rather sooner than later. And of course (as we also mentioned in the video) it is possible to have electric propulsion on a cruising boat and there are quite a few people who do it. However, as many failed attempts by boatbuilders show, this is not an option that aligns with the average cruiser's needs and expectations. We wish it would be different, but we are just pointing out the facts. And unfortunately you can't change physics with wishful thinking. Maybe a good analogy would be bicycles vs. cars. There are quite a few people who get very well without having a car (Jan for example never owned a car). But this means a drastic compromise in convenience and comfort, that most people are not willing to take. The same goes for cruisers: There are a few who don't mind having a range of only 5-10 miles on engine power, and this is great. But the average cruiser is not willing to make this sacrifice in convenience when there is the alternative of having a diesel engine. So to make electric boating a viable option for long term cruising, we either need a drastic change in mentality or a drastic improvement in technology. We are not sure which is easier to achieve. - Nigel & Jan
Moving forward you might want to invite someone on the show who has made the transition and talk about how they have succeeded instead of why we are not there yet. Regarding the charging network I would reach out to ChargPoint and ask them how they support the grid and are able to charge large amounts of electric vehicles without causing additional strain on the grid. I think boaters are ready to move forward into the electrification of boats. I would love to watch that episode on BoatHowTo. Here is wishful thinking backed by physics.
i started solar powered boating in the european waterways 12 years ago. I didn 't have high expectiations, but reality was simply that is went great. I did make the vessel from the ground up to use very little energy to travel. The pictures of those early travels can be found on facebook in the albums called "expedition" on the page Captain Sunset. It started out as not much more than a twin hulled raft with some solar panels for shading. But i got me from Belgium to the Mediterrenean and to the Atlantic (using rivers and canals). I boated summer and winter. Winter would force you to sometimes simply wait out bad weather and even in summer the mistral was something all boats waited to lay down before going up the Rhone river.... anyhow, i am now in the process of making a new model... with what i learned and what i learn from Nigel and Jan. Thanks Nigel and Jan for sharing your knowledge.
When he stated : "There are 2 fudamental differences between sailsboats and cars" I would have expect him so say: "Sailboats have sails". So he also says: "When the speed goes up, the hull resistance goes trough the roof" And also: "When I motor at 7 knots, i need 10kw of power". Now he would accept 4knots boatspeed he only needs 2kw of motor power. Then About the shore power. I can charge at 3.5kw. But I set my current input limit to 1 kw because I spend long enough time in the marine to get a full charge again. So the conclusion should be. "Electric propulsion is not a viable option if you want to cruise near hull speed for a large distance."
He does make a good point about shore power and costly infrastructure upgrades needed in case of wide electric propulsion adoption. Also true at 4 kts power consumption is greatly reduced vs theoretical hull speed but what happens the moment you have to fight head winds and choppy water (often the case in my corner of the world) and especially if not able/allowed to sail right in to marina? You'll easily blow past 10KW to maintain 4kts speed... So the conclusion should really be 'Battery powered Electric is not viable unless you carefully understand your use case and conclude the pros outweigh the cons'...
More than 1 hr is not a large distance. “Electric propulsion is not a viable option if you want to cruise near hull speed for anything beyond a very short distance.”
I like sailing. If I’m motoring it’s because I need to get somewhere by a certain time or beat a tide etc. Reducing speed by 50% is not what I want when motoring.
If you only sail on the weekend, wouldn't you have all week to recharge, at a trickle charge speed? Like, same current as running the AC? Flip side, wouldn't some solar on the boat recharge it before you're back next weekend? HopYacht 30 is all electric and recharges fully via solar after 40-50 miles of auxiliary cruising, in about 4 days of sun. Also, we're talking sailing here, why are we running our auxiliary all weekend? Is this addressing electric trawlers? Because, that sounds like a bad idea for sure.
In this discussion we were talking about cruising boats. This implies that you are not only sailing on weekends, but for weeks at a time, often with limited time at the dock. And yes, you can go all electric on those as well, just as you can go completely engineless. The thing is that this is just not practical for 95% of people. But I do have a lot of respect for everyone who does go that route and sails full electric. - Jan
This is a poor message to share- Nigel is referring to cruising speeds on a sailboat using power. The bigger message is sailing and using the motor efficiently while recharging with a moderate amount of solar IS here now. Cruising long distances even. This video doesn’t support that at all even though there are lots of examples of success.
Truth is never a poor message. Over inflated claims hurt the cause of green energy, not help it. Things are improving all the time as he says, but right now the energy density of batteries is extremely low and solar is what it is.
I am aware of Nigel’s contributions to the boating world and have a great deal of respect for his opinions. This video is simply too narrow a perspective. Electric cruising for sailboats is here now. The message herein is that it is not, because it propagates way too much motoring.
@@akjhome The fact that you disagree with him doesn’t make his opinion incorrect. Many sailors don’t have an engine of any sort and are perfectly happy. Electric cruising that equates to current diesel cruising for sailboats is most definitively nowhere near “here now”. I can motor at near hull speed for 25hrs in my yacht. As he says, you can only do that for an hour with current electrics. Arguing that you can use less engine misses the point. You can always use less engine as the people who sail without one prove. He’s arguing that electric motors don't replace the current capabilities of diesels, and the don’t by a long shot.
Nope. I’m not saying his opinion is wrong or false. Again, My statement is still that this isn’t a good message to compare electric motors vs diesel. Then, you get others that believe electric motors are good for cruising. And that brings naysayers and others that don’t know better to think they can’t use them.
@@akjhome There is no such thing as a “good message” other than factual truth. The idea that something other than truth is good is a sign of the times we live in, sadly.
Why only solar? I can think of four separate ways to generate energy when at anchor, and two more ways to generate energy when in motion, using the water around you as an energy source. No need to ever plug in to the dock.
@@21142317 not for a powerboat. But for. Sailboat the motor is just auxiliary and not the main means of propeltion. It is also up to how long time you stay at anchor. If you just stop for the night and then motor on it will not be sufficient. If you are cruising in a more relaxed fashion it is another tale. I know about people who have made really long crusing voyages without any motor at all, it's all up to your style.
The decision point could be stated as, "The less you plan / need to motor the more electric is for you. The more you plan / need to motor the less electric is for you."
I respect Nigel but this argument is very similar to electric cars " If we all have electric cars we will blow up the grid". We now know that EV's can actually help the grid using VTG. I guess if we keep pushing "we are not there yet" we will never be there. Innovation is an incredible thing and I give two thumbs up to the individual sailers who are proving that electric is there.
@@21142317 Your "Theoretical" info is very outdated. The northern part of England as well as Sweden has implemented VTG tech and it has been working just fine with the grid. Just because the U.S hasn't taken advantage of the VTG doesn't mean it doesn't work. The problems arise when we have people saying things like " it will never work" or " there are too many problems with the implementation".
Electric propulsion unsuitable for a cruising boat ?? Sorry but I have to disagree with you Nige !! You may do well to remember some of your earlier mentors. Eric Hiscock for instance circumnavigated I don't recall how many times in his 30' Wanderer III and they had an 8Hp probably petrol engine, and Peter Pye successfully cruised extensively with 30' Moonraker and they had a 7 Hp petrol motor with a 5 gal Jerry can for a fuel tank. Who the hell needs to cruise at 7knots anyway ? If you have to be back at work on Monday morning , then maybe it's not going to work for you. I have cruised many summers with electric propulsion and am retired and don't have to be back at work on Monday morning and quite frankly neither do most cruisers. Think it through Nige , and if you want more arguments, I have plenty
I have a 32 foot sailboat built in 1979 that is electric - his first sentence in this video is about right I think. She's a lightly driven, very fast, shallow draft cruising sailboat thats quiet - the electric propulsion system is 9 years old (i think) and I'm holding off for new batteries for a couple more years (i hope) - stories of lithium batteries longevity being completely tied to state of discharge treatment and cycle life are to me untrue, they also have a shelf life and seasonal storage does strange things. I don't use shore power. The previous owner of my boat loved the Beta hybrid option and it certainly does seem attractive if one really values quiet....as I do. I also own an efoy unit, again for the redundancy and quiet. As a more general comment - I am a boatinghowto member and wish you guys would roll up your sleeves and show us how to troubleshoot some electrical stuff and get the most out of our multimeters instead of all the talking and slide shows....still - a satisfied customer.
Thanks for your comment. Have you seen the bonus lesson we recently released about the topic of troubleshooting with a multimeter? boathowto.com/courses/basic-electrical-troubleshooting/ -Jan
@@BoatHowTo I have Jan it's excellent, still - filming one of the examples in real time would help me envision the problem solving thought process a bit better. Maybe it's just me. I enrolled in your course because i had an intermittent voltage drop causing the autopilot on a very fast french boat to fail when the b&g sensed LV - it took me two days and ultimately found it at the battery switch.....but as you can imagine it would present anywhere you looked, or not, depending on chance. across switches, within single runs, on different circuits.....ultimately it was the everywhere all at once and your course that a dim light bulb went off....autopilot failures singlehanded stink. tx for reply.
@@armchairsportsman4108 This summer I will be starting to upgrade/rewire the system on my new boat. Of course I will record a lot of that on video and we will turn this into some bonus lessons (and probably RUclips content) in the coming months. So stay tuned for that! - Jan :-)
The problem with electric propulsion is that the battery technology is not ready yet - they don't have the same energy density as diesel or petrol fuel. For coastal cruising and day sailing, electric propulsion is excellent. There are lot of marinas where you can plug into shore power and charge up your batteries. But for ocean sailing/crossing, electric propulsion is a big NO-NO.
Can you good People make diesel engine hybrid electric please ???? Many wants 10 to 80kw engine 48v litium battery in boats whit solar and all. 10kw el engine together whit an volvo penta marine feks can produce 10kw regen very fast. And allsow of cruise slow you can make good distanse at 4 to 5 knots. Generator el engine mounted on top of gearbox
Just to clarify, we are not opposed to electric boating at all. As a society (and this includes the boating world) we will have to come up with ways to drastically cut our emissions rather sooner than later. And of course (as we also mentioned in the video) it is possible to have electric propulsion on a cruising boat and there are quite a few people who do it. However, as many failed attempts by boatbuilders show, this is not an option that aligns with the average cruiser's needs and expectations. We wish it would be different, but we are just pointing out the facts. And unfortunately you can't change physics with wishful thinking.
Maybe a good analogy would be bicycles vs. cars. There are quite a few people who get very well without having a car (Jan for example never owned a car). But this means a drastic compromise in convenience and comfort, that most people are not willing to take. The same goes for cruisers: There are a few who don't mind having a range of only 5-10 miles on engine power, and this is great. But the average cruiser is not willing to make this sacrifice in convenience when there is the alternative of having a diesel engine. So to make electric boating a viable option for long term cruising, we either need a drastic change in mentality or a drastic improvement in technology. We are not sure which is easier to achieve.
- Nigel & Jan
Moving forward you might want to invite someone on the show who has made the transition and talk about how they have succeeded instead of why we are not there yet. Regarding the charging network I would reach out to ChargPoint and ask them how they support the grid and are able to charge large amounts of electric vehicles without causing additional strain on the grid. I think boaters are ready to move forward into the electrification of boats. I would love to watch that episode on BoatHowTo. Here is wishful thinking backed by physics.
i started solar powered boating in the european waterways 12 years ago. I didn 't have high expectiations, but reality was simply that is went great. I did make the vessel from the ground up to use very little energy to travel. The pictures of those early travels can be found on facebook in the albums called "expedition" on the page Captain Sunset. It started out as not much more than a twin hulled raft with some solar panels for shading. But i got me from Belgium to the Mediterrenean and to the Atlantic (using rivers and canals). I boated summer and winter. Winter would force you to sometimes simply wait out bad weather and even in summer the mistral was something all boats waited to lay down before going up the Rhone river.... anyhow, i am now in the process of making a new model... with what i learned and what i learn from Nigel and Jan. Thanks Nigel and Jan for sharing your knowledge.
When he stated : "There are 2 fudamental differences between sailsboats and cars" I would have expect him so say: "Sailboats have sails".
So he also says: "When the speed goes up, the hull resistance goes trough the roof" And also: "When I motor at 7 knots, i need 10kw of power". Now he would accept 4knots boatspeed he only needs 2kw of motor power. Then
About the shore power. I can charge at 3.5kw. But I set my current input limit to 1 kw because I spend long enough time in the marine to get a full charge again.
So the conclusion should be. "Electric propulsion is not a viable option if you want to cruise near hull speed for a large distance."
He does make a good point about shore power and costly infrastructure upgrades needed in case of wide electric propulsion adoption. Also true at 4 kts power consumption is greatly reduced vs theoretical hull speed but what happens the moment you have to fight head winds and choppy water (often the case in my corner of the world) and especially if not able/allowed to sail right in to marina? You'll easily blow past 10KW to maintain 4kts speed... So the conclusion should really be 'Battery powered Electric is not viable unless you carefully understand your use case and conclude the pros outweigh the cons'...
More than 1 hr is not a large distance. “Electric propulsion is not a viable option if you want to cruise near hull speed for anything beyond a very short distance.”
When you reduce speed to 50%, power consumption drops to 12,5%. So range increase to factor 4!
I like sailing. If I’m motoring it’s because I need to get somewhere by a certain time or beat a tide etc. Reducing speed by 50% is not what I want when motoring.
Lock at sailing uma. Them regen when sailing.
Fantastisk systems
If you only sail on the weekend, wouldn't you have all week to recharge, at a trickle charge speed? Like, same current as running the AC? Flip side, wouldn't some solar on the boat recharge it before you're back next weekend? HopYacht 30 is all electric and recharges fully via solar after 40-50 miles of auxiliary cruising, in about 4 days of sun.
Also, we're talking sailing here, why are we running our auxiliary all weekend? Is this addressing electric trawlers? Because, that sounds like a bad idea for sure.
In this discussion we were talking about cruising boats. This implies that you are not only sailing on weekends, but for weeks at a time, often with limited time at the dock. And yes, you can go all electric on those as well, just as you can go completely engineless. The thing is that this is just not practical for 95% of people. But I do have a lot of respect for everyone who does go that route and sails full electric. - Jan
This is a poor message to share- Nigel is referring to cruising speeds on a sailboat using power. The bigger message is sailing and using the motor efficiently while recharging with a moderate amount of solar IS here now. Cruising long distances even. This video doesn’t support that at all even though there are lots of examples of success.
Truth is never a poor message. Over inflated claims hurt the cause of green energy, not help it. Things are improving all the time as he says, but right now the energy density of batteries is extremely low and solar is what it is.
I am aware of Nigel’s contributions to the boating world and have a great deal of respect for his opinions. This video is simply too narrow a perspective. Electric cruising for sailboats is here now. The message herein is that it is not, because it propagates way too much motoring.
@@akjhome The fact that you disagree with him doesn’t make his opinion incorrect.
Many sailors don’t have an engine of any sort and are perfectly happy.
Electric cruising that equates to current diesel cruising for sailboats is most definitively nowhere near “here now”. I can motor at near hull speed for 25hrs in my yacht. As he says, you can only do that for an hour with current electrics.
Arguing that you can use less engine misses the point. You can always use less engine as the people who sail without one prove.
He’s arguing that electric motors don't replace the current capabilities of diesels, and the don’t by a long shot.
Nope. I’m not saying his opinion is wrong or false. Again, My statement is still that this isn’t a good message to compare electric motors vs diesel. Then, you get others that believe electric motors are good for cruising. And that brings naysayers and others that don’t know better to think they can’t use them.
@@akjhome There is no such thing as a “good message” other than factual truth. The idea that something other than truth is good is a sign of the times we live in, sadly.
Why only solar?
I can think of four separate ways to generate energy when at anchor, and two more ways to generate energy when in motion, using the water around you as an energy source. No need to ever plug in to the dock.
Not in amounts large enough to make a significant effect on the quantities needed for propulsion.
@@21142317 not for a powerboat. But for. Sailboat the motor is just auxiliary and not the main means of propeltion.
It is also up to how long time you stay at anchor. If you just stop for the night and then motor on it will not be sufficient.
If you are cruising in a more relaxed fashion it is another tale. I know about people who have made really long crusing voyages without any motor at all, it's all up to your style.
The decision point could be stated as, "The less you plan / need to motor the more electric is for you. The more you plan / need to motor the less electric is for you."
I respect Nigel but this argument is very similar to electric cars " If we all have electric cars we will blow up the grid". We now know that EV's can actually help the grid using VTG. I guess if we keep pushing "we are not there yet" we will never be there. Innovation is an incredible thing and I give two thumbs up to the individual sailers who are proving that electric is there.
The cars helping the grid is theoretical rather than actual. Lots of problems with the implementation.
@@21142317 Your "Theoretical" info is very outdated. The northern part of England as well as Sweden has implemented VTG tech and it has been working just fine with the grid. Just because the U.S hasn't taken advantage of the VTG doesn't mean it doesn't work. The problems arise when we have people saying things like " it will never work" or " there are too many problems with the implementation".
Electric propulsion unsuitable for a cruising boat ?? Sorry but I have to disagree with you Nige !! You may do well to remember some of your earlier mentors. Eric Hiscock for instance circumnavigated I don't recall how many times in his 30' Wanderer III and they had an 8Hp probably petrol engine, and Peter Pye successfully cruised extensively with 30' Moonraker and they had a 7 Hp petrol motor with a 5 gal Jerry can for a fuel tank. Who the hell needs to cruise at 7knots anyway ?
If you have to be back at work on Monday morning , then maybe it's not going to work for you. I have cruised many summers with electric propulsion and am retired and don't have to be back at work on Monday morning and quite frankly neither do most cruisers.
Think it through Nige , and if you want more arguments, I have plenty
I have a 32 foot sailboat built in 1979 that is electric - his first sentence in this video is about right I think. She's a lightly driven, very fast, shallow draft cruising sailboat thats quiet - the electric propulsion system is 9 years old (i think) and I'm holding off for new batteries for a couple more years (i hope) - stories of lithium batteries longevity being completely tied to state of discharge treatment and cycle life are to me untrue, they also have a shelf life and seasonal storage does strange things. I don't use shore power. The previous owner of my boat loved the Beta hybrid option and it certainly does seem attractive if one really values quiet....as I do. I also own an efoy unit, again for the redundancy and quiet. As a more general comment - I am a boatinghowto member and wish you guys would roll up your sleeves and show us how to troubleshoot some electrical stuff and get the most out of our multimeters instead of all the talking and slide shows....still - a satisfied customer.
Thanks for your comment. Have you seen the bonus lesson we recently released about the topic of troubleshooting with a multimeter? boathowto.com/courses/basic-electrical-troubleshooting/ -Jan
@@BoatHowTo I have Jan it's excellent, still - filming one of the examples in real time would help me envision the problem solving thought process a bit better. Maybe it's just me. I enrolled in your course because i had an intermittent voltage drop causing the autopilot on a very fast french boat to fail when the b&g sensed LV - it took me two days and ultimately found it at the battery switch.....but as you can imagine it would present anywhere you looked, or not, depending on chance. across switches, within single runs, on different circuits.....ultimately it was the everywhere all at once and your course that a dim light bulb went off....autopilot failures singlehanded stink. tx for reply.
@@armchairsportsman4108 This summer I will be starting to upgrade/rewire the system on my new boat. Of course I will record a lot of that on video and we will turn this into some bonus lessons (and probably RUclips content) in the coming months. So stay tuned for that! - Jan :-)
The problem with electric propulsion is that the battery technology is not ready yet - they don't have the same energy density as diesel or petrol fuel. For coastal cruising and day sailing, electric propulsion is excellent. There are lot of marinas where you can plug into shore power and charge up your batteries. But for ocean sailing/crossing, electric propulsion is a big NO-NO.
6:33 havent this last point changed very much now ???
Hybrid electric is the new boatlife
Can you good People make diesel engine hybrid electric please ????
Many wants 10 to 80kw engine 48v litium battery in boats whit solar and all.
10kw el engine together whit an volvo penta marine feks can produce 10kw regen very fast.
And allsow of cruise slow you can make good distanse at 4 to 5 knots.
Generator el engine mounted on top of gearbox
How now for me ??
10kw engine electric.
450 amp 48volt traveling european waterways and habe much solar panels
Thst last i wanna see
Uma have the perfekt solutione for this
With a petrol generator.
You can regen much lower whit the uma upset
Not at decent wattage. the amount of energy available goes up exponentially with speed
Hello 10 ore 20kw regen is possible in 1h whit startup and drive 1h and can go electric many h
1 year låter
But have bean many new ourcome
Then never ever need of shore power EVER AGAIN
So not all this is true
Hydrogen fuel cell with maybe a new hydrogen motor as generator.
At least with current technology, this is not a viable option. See our video on fuel cells: ruclips.net/video/jXV54OmL5tg/видео.html