This was the video I needed. Great summary and selection of information. Thank you! One thing that might be interesting with the latest version of 1.5.5.3477, is that in 'Core Audio' mode (previously Native) you can still use Unison via Console on your Apollo Inputs in combination with LUNA. It's just not accessible from within LUNA.
Help Matt. When I launch luna It askes me for an a registered Apollo wich I never had. I run PT for yearsand I have an Aurora Lynx N. That I would love to use Luna. Thanks Matt...
As of right now you need to have a Thunderbolt Apollo to get a license for LUNA. They come with two iLok authorizations. We'll have to see if that changes in the future.
I hope so UA normally takes a long time to finish anything. I almost own all plugins and a few days ago I wanted to get the native versions because they said if you already own them you get them free...well only three were available on windows.
Thanks for doing this Matt. I sent feedback, and do hope they implement settings to allow for something lower than 128. There's no good reason I can think of to handicap the latency built into other interfaces. It is interesting that under core audio setting the Presonus is lower than the Apollo. I don't know if it's really so big a difference, but for some I'm sure they'd say yes.
@@MattHepworth Thank you, understood. Are they directly (individual) connected to the computer or one to the other via adat or thunderbolt? The way they show up in LUNA, seems to be like individual / directly connected to the computer.
I been having low volume digital clicks and pops when I record vocals. And it stays on the recording. I was starting to think it could be audio settings / buffering related. Would you know any info ?
If it's actually in the recording I don't think it's buffer. Usually those are related to sync/clocking. Could also be something as simple as a bad cable.
Yeah, that's a tough thing for me too. I have a particular way I do saves and enumeration over the years. LUNA taking that out of my hands is hard to adapt to. Make sure you hit the submit feedback button and let UA know!
The science backing the equation is simple: speed of sound is between 330m/s and 345m/s (varies by elevation and temperature, but those are the ranges we mix and record in). That means sound travels between 1.08 and 1.14 ft per millisecond. So, 10 to 11 ft from the source equals 10ms latency. This is where the whole way of thinking comes from, and it's correct in a lot of situations: drums, guitar amps, etc., where we are a certain distance from the source. A performers vocals, on the other hand, are near 0ms to them as they sing or speak normally, so any amount of latency is foreign. After 2ms (for most people) the sound they're hearing in their headphones vs natural sound are further distorted in combination to the "zero" latency source resonating through their skulls and also subtly reaching their ears acoustically all while mixing with the latent signal, which created phase anomalies/comb filtering for the performer.
@@MattHepworth Well pasted, but this does not relate at all to latency. I have worked in studios all over the world for 40 years and not once [pre cubase] did anyone talk about the speed of sound and some strange delay in the cans. Well, unless deliberate. It's a discussion that was first created by the digital domain because it's only relevant to the digital domain. We all know. If going native for you has now taken the discussion in the direction of travel that 'it's always been like that' so don't worry about it is nothing more than a sales pitch. Again, we know. Whatever you googled, try the ks3 study, which i took and you may re think it.
You're right about this being an issue starting with digital. Nothing was pasted above. You'd asked for info, so I went to the trouble of providing it. I'm not sure what you mean with some of your statement about sales and such. Can you clarify?
@peter north Just re-read your post and I see what you're getting at. No, sounds like you're one of the lucky ones that isn't bothered by it, and neither are those you've worked with (or they were too professional to complain about it). Many people aren't so lucky. To be clear, it's not that it's perceived as a delay (that's not possible), it's the comb filtering caused by the sound from the source and skull resonance mixing with the latent signal from the cans. This is mostly limited to vocalists, obviously, which is why I specified it as such. It's not a new or unique phenomenon. For those sensitive to it, it gets much worse after 2ms and is generally acceptable at less than 2ms. It really is as black and white as some people are driven crazy by it and some don't notice. There's plenty of research and documentation on this, but I speak from direct experience, not hearsay.
This is a discussion that has only come to light since the era of digital recording. Artists and recording equipment have always worked at distances that latency math should have existed in the analog days.. but it didn’t.
Interesting. I tried it with my X4 and adding a Volt 2. Now i could record a drumset with 6 channels at once. But i have to watch the different latencies and have to correct them later. ✌🏼
What is the best way to use stereo guitar plug-ins in Luna? If I use a mono track I can’t hear any stereo imaging. If I use a stereo track I can hear the stereo but audio file only records on one input.
It’s odd - both Pro Tools and Logic can dynamically change a mono channel into stereo monitoring when you insert a stereo plugin. I wonder why Luna has yet to offer this.
Hello Matt, I thought this video wasn't for me, but I still checked in for the Latency-Talk that always is interesting to me. 1,06 ms in "Apollo-mode" at 96 kHz is the roundtrip? Interface-DAW-Interface? Those are amazing numbers. I'd also be interested in how much/wether a UAD pre-amp + compressor- plugin would affect that number. Great video as usual!
Thank you! Yes, Apollo at 96kHz has fantastic latency. About half UAD plugins add latency. Most the newer UA developed plugins add 55 samples. The Unison preamps are that number as well. That means you're adding a little over half a millisecond for a Unison preamp.
Haven’t tested this myself yet, but my Quantum 4848 has a latency of 0.91ms in 192khz on other DAWs. LUNA can do 192 right? If so, did you test it? If not, then I guess that’s why you didn’t.
Because the minimum buffer size doubles for each Samplerate it'd be about the same latency as 96kHz that I got with my Quantum, and only a marginal latency improvement vs 48kHz.
nice, this probably heralds them both releasing working Windows versions and starting to bundle Luna into non-Apollo interfaces they sell. Super smart move, esp if they end up going with a hybrid approach for the next gen Apollos.
I'd like to see more granularity for Buffer size. Start at 32 and increment by specific numeric values. And provide a real time latency counter. Default, small, large is probably useful for oh, I dunno, ordering coffee? 🤷🏼♂️
For the three options I'd have liked 32, 128, and 1024, plus no safety buffer at the lowest setting. Default and Large are both only suitable for mixing, so the three options are definitely disappointing.
Matt, there’s just one detail i’m still confused about. If you do NOT own any UA Apollo device … are you able to use the Luna native version? Or is ownership of a physical Apollo device still a requirement to use Luna at all? Thanks for any clarification!
Matt do you know if antelope audio gen 4 latency is ok with Luna ? I have a distortion problem running my 3 silver Apollos with the latest Luna 1.4 can’t seem to solve it 😢
Bummer on the Apollo situation! Have you reached out to UA? As to Antelope, I have an Orion 2017. It's less than half a ms higher latency than the Quantum. You can also do the hybrid thing. Mute the channel in LUNA and monitor through the Antelope mixer. Overdubs are difficult this way, though.
This was the video I needed. Great summary and selection of information. Thank you!
One thing that might be interesting with the latest version of 1.5.5.3477, is that in 'Core Audio' mode (previously Native) you can still use Unison via Console on your Apollo Inputs in combination with LUNA. It's just not accessible from within LUNA.
They also allow the buffer to be set to specific numbers now, which helps with latency for native performance.
Thanks heaps, your are a lifesaver Matt, really appreciate your clear and calm explanations
Glad it's helpful!
Very informative Matt! Thanks!!!
Thanks, Tom!
Luna sounds thin compared to Mixbus 32C. I guess it’s the yellow saturation cheat code on the buses
It would be amazing if you could do a video of how you would mix in Atmos in Luna. Great channel!
Thank you! I'd like to.
Thanks Matt, detail info.
Glad it was helpful. Thanks!
Help Matt. When I launch luna It askes me for an a registered Apollo wich I never had. I run PT for yearsand I have an Aurora Lynx N. That I would love to use Luna. Thanks Matt...
As of right now you need to have a Thunderbolt Apollo to get a license for LUNA. They come with two iLok authorizations. We'll have to see if that changes in the future.
With V 1.4 of LUNA you can see a near term path to a Windows version of LUNA ,which many folks have requested over the past 3 years.
I hope so UA normally takes a long time to finish anything. I almost own all plugins and a few days ago I wanted to get the native versions because they said if you already own them you get them free...well only three were available on windows.
Coming out at the next NAM.
Thank you, good info!
Glad it was helpful!
Let me know when they release it for PC.
Thanks for doing this Matt. I sent feedback, and do hope they implement settings to allow for something lower than 128. There's no good reason I can think of to handicap the latency built into other interfaces. It is interesting that under core audio setting the Presonus is lower than the Apollo. I don't know if it's really so big a difference, but for some I'm sure they'd say yes.
Thanks for the video and great detailed explanation. How are the different audio interfaces connected to your computer?
Thank you! Both Quantum and Apollo are Thunderbolt connection.
@@MattHepworth Thank you, understood. Are they directly (individual) connected to the computer or one to the other via adat or thunderbolt? The way they show up in LUNA, seems to be like individual / directly connected to the computer.
No interconnections at all, just both connected to the computer separately.
I been having low volume digital clicks and pops when I record vocals. And it stays on the recording. I was starting to think it could be audio settings / buffering related. Would you know any info ?
If it's actually in the recording I don't think it's buffer. Usually those are related to sync/clocking. Could also be something as simple as a bad cable.
How do you NOT Save a Session in Luna? Changes you don’t want to Keep are always Saved. And no way out.
Yeah, that's a tough thing for me too. I have a particular way I do saves and enumeration over the years. LUNA taking that out of my hands is hard to adapt to. Make sure you hit the submit feedback button and let UA know!
Can you give us the science or actual facts about the distance equation to latency? There is none as I'm aware.
The science backing the equation is simple: speed of sound is between 330m/s and 345m/s (varies by elevation and temperature, but those are the ranges we mix and record in). That means sound travels between 1.08 and 1.14 ft per millisecond. So, 10 to 11 ft from the source equals 10ms latency. This is where the whole way of thinking comes from, and it's correct in a lot of situations: drums, guitar amps, etc., where we are a certain distance from the source. A performers vocals, on the other hand, are near 0ms to them as they sing or speak normally, so any amount of latency is foreign. After 2ms (for most people) the sound they're hearing in their headphones vs natural sound are further distorted in combination to the "zero" latency source resonating through their skulls and also subtly reaching their ears acoustically all while mixing with the latent signal, which created phase anomalies/comb filtering for the performer.
@@MattHepworth Well pasted, but this does not relate at all to latency. I have worked in studios all over the world for 40 years and not once [pre cubase] did anyone talk about the speed of sound and some strange delay in the cans. Well, unless deliberate. It's a discussion that was first created by the digital domain because it's only relevant to the digital domain. We all know. If going native for you has now taken the discussion in the direction of travel that 'it's always been like that' so don't worry about it is nothing more than a sales pitch. Again, we know. Whatever you googled, try the ks3 study, which i took and you may re think it.
You're right about this being an issue starting with digital. Nothing was pasted above. You'd asked for info, so I went to the trouble of providing it. I'm not sure what you mean with some of your statement about sales and such. Can you clarify?
@peter north Just re-read your post and I see what you're getting at. No, sounds like you're one of the lucky ones that isn't bothered by it, and neither are those you've worked with (or they were too professional to complain about it). Many people aren't so lucky. To be clear, it's not that it's perceived as a delay (that's not possible), it's the comb filtering caused by the sound from the source and skull resonance mixing with the latent signal from the cans. This is mostly limited to vocalists, obviously, which is why I specified it as such. It's not a new or unique phenomenon. For those sensitive to it, it gets much worse after 2ms and is generally acceptable at less than 2ms. It really is as black and white as some people are driven crazy by it and some don't notice. There's plenty of research and documentation on this, but I speak from direct experience, not hearsay.
This is a discussion that has only come to light since the era of digital recording. Artists and recording equipment have always worked at distances that latency math should have existed in the analog days.. but it didn’t.
Interesting. I tried it with my X4 and adding a Volt 2. Now i could record a drumset with 6 channels at once. But i have to watch the different latencies and have to correct them later. ✌🏼
I'd just use the Volt for the overheads. The little extra delay will have a negligible effect that way.
What is the best way to use stereo guitar plug-ins in Luna? If I use a mono track I can’t hear any stereo imaging. If I use a stereo track I can hear the stereo but audio file only records on one input.
Great question and I don't have a good answer. If I can find a workaround I'll post it.
It’s odd - both Pro Tools and Logic can dynamically change a mono channel into stereo monitoring when you insert a stereo plugin. I wonder why Luna has yet to offer this.
Thanks.
May I ask which microphone you used to make the video?
I like the sound.
Thanks
Thank you! Slate ML-2. No modeling.
@@MattHepworth Merci 👍
Hello Matt, I thought this video wasn't for me, but I still checked in for the Latency-Talk that always is interesting to me. 1,06 ms in "Apollo-mode" at 96 kHz is the roundtrip? Interface-DAW-Interface? Those are amazing numbers. I'd also be interested in how much/wether a UAD pre-amp + compressor- plugin would affect that number. Great video as usual!
Thank you! Yes, Apollo at 96kHz has fantastic latency. About half UAD plugins add latency. Most the newer UA developed plugins add 55 samples. The Unison preamps are that number as well. That means you're adding a little over half a millisecond for a Unison preamp.
@@MattHepworth That sounds great. UAD is sure making a(n even) better argument for themselves now. Thanks for the information!
Thanks for the video Sir, see you on the forums!!
Thank you! See you there!
Haven’t tested this myself yet, but my Quantum 4848 has a latency of 0.91ms in 192khz on other DAWs.
LUNA can do 192 right?
If so, did you test it?
If not, then I guess that’s why you didn’t.
Because the minimum buffer size doubles for each Samplerate it'd be about the same latency as 96kHz that I got with my Quantum, and only a marginal latency improvement vs 48kHz.
Thanks
nice, this probably heralds them both releasing working Windows versions and starting to bundle Luna into non-Apollo interfaces they sell. Super smart move, esp if they end up going with a hybrid approach for the next gen Apollos.
Winter NAMM is now in April we must wait
I suspect UA has some new interfaces in store for NAMM
I'd like to see more granularity for Buffer size. Start at 32 and increment by specific numeric values. And provide a real time latency counter.
Default, small, large is probably useful for oh, I dunno, ordering coffee? 🤷🏼♂️
For the three options I'd have liked 32, 128, and 1024, plus no safety buffer at the lowest setting. Default and Large are both only suitable for mixing, so the three options are definitely disappointing.
How were you using the Apollo with Apple Silicon? Using Adapters?
No, it's been natively supported for several months.
Can u use 2 Apollo twins now ?
I had the same question. I do not belive so. The driver prevents it.
Matt, there’s just one detail i’m still confused about. If you do NOT own any UA Apollo device … are you able to use the Luna native version? Or is ownership of a physical Apollo device still a requirement to use Luna at all? Thanks for any clarification!
Hi Randall, I only mention it briefly, but TB Apollo gets you two iLok licenses. There's currently no way to acquire it.
@@MattHepworth Got it, thanks Matt. Great and helpful video.
Brilliant
Matt do you know if antelope audio gen 4 latency is ok with Luna ?
I have a distortion problem running my 3 silver Apollos with the latest Luna 1.4 can’t seem to solve it 😢
Bummer on the Apollo situation! Have you reached out to UA? As to Antelope, I have an Orion 2017. It's less than half a ms higher latency than the Quantum. You can also do the hybrid thing. Mute the channel in LUNA and monitor through the Antelope mixer. Overdubs are difficult this way, though.
Can I ask if the Galaxy 32 latency is any better
Thanks again
Ray
I would assume it's roughly the same, but I have not tested one.
@@MattHepworth 10weeks trouble shooting still no solution
Core audio works great 👍
Bummer about the troubleshooting, but glad Native is working!
SO, Matt, Windows support coming? :). I don't use it for music anymore, but... who knows.
I have a NDA with UA, so I have to be extra careful with what I say, even if I were guessing, in case that guess is correct.
I can't tell you hard it was to map these same inputs in Pro Tools. Lots of cursing!!
Absolutely!
Bummer it still requires buying an Apollo. But great for Apollo owners.
Reaper
Ive a friend who owes me 50 bucks.. I bet this was happening..
Awesome!