They are both flawed, they both have great elements. Can't pick just one. It's a good thing we have both, it would be even better if we had one version with the good parts and fewer flaws.
One piece of dialogue you didn't mention is the icing on top of the cake when Clark enters the diner at the end. He see's the bully and says 'gee, that's funny, I've never seen garbage eat garbage before'. It's funny and corny all at once and completely fits the tone of his one liners.
@19:00 I worked with John on CHEERS and asked him about that. (He's also in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK) He told me that it was because the union require that the film have a certain amount of American actors, and he was an American ex-patriot living in England at the time, so he got a lot of work on American productions.
Okay, wow cool! Thanks so much for that. Yeah I was kicking myself during the edit that we didn't mention John's appearance in EMPIRE because we highlight two other Star Wars actors (Angus McInnes and Richard LeParmentier). What a trip to see you in the comments, btw -- great fan of your work, I just watched "Ackbar's Eleven" late last night and love it -- BRILLIANT editing work on that piece, monsieur! CHEERS 👊
Alright so thanks to you guys I finally got around to watching the Donner Cut. I definitely have some thoughts. While some of the Lester Schtick is silly, I missed some of the silliness... Not all of it. but some of it. I didn't like that they eliminated the scene where the Kryptonians first arrive on planet houston and wreak havoc, but rather just cut to the little town burning and going crazy. Stuff I really liked was that we finally learn why superman was able to get his powers back. It always bugged me in the original version that he just grabs the green crystal and next scene he has his powers back. That said, I did NOT like the turn back time ending. My issue is, it seems to me that in the hierarchy of Jorel rules superman might break, messing with human history ranks a little higher than having a human girlfriend. So if he's so willing to TWICE turn back time and mess with history, why then is he unwilling to say "screw you dad, I'm gonna be with lois and keep my powers". Now, perhaps if he went the spiderman route of saying he doesn't want to put Lois in danger since he'll always have enemies, maybe. Another thing that hit me, somehow more in this version, was that I didn't buy that Superman would let go of his powers to be with lois and not even consider the possibility that, maybe, one of the reasons she's so hot for him is because of his powers. I mean, she's this gorgeous "career gal" that won't look twice at Clark, but falls head over heals for Superman. Maybe, just maybe, him flying her around the night sky in superman 1 had something to do with that. Now, no more powers, it would never occur to him that she might find him a lot less appealing?
Cool, glad you finally saw it! Yeah, I think I agree with everything you're saying. I have many problems with the whole giving-up-his-powers thing, but I do like the high stakes situation it puts him in, so I'm kind of torn. The time reversing ending of the Donner Cut is definitely problematic, but I choose to look past it because in reality, there isn't an ending for the Donner Cut, as he was never able to finish the movie. Turning back time was the original ending for II, but once they halted production on II and moved the time reversal moment to the first movie, they were planning to write and shoot a totally new ending for II. Lester's answer was the magic kiss (probably concocted by screenwriter David Newman), but we'll never really know what Donner and Mankiewicz would have done. I think of it like a lost Beatles album or something like that... we can piece together what it might have been, but ultimately it's just fragments of a great movie that was never finished.
I loved the scene when the villains enter the diner and the guy says "The Circus is in town" and Ursa arm wrestles the guy and destroys him and the table.
The TV version had a lot of extras too that are hard to find. In the small town Zod is taking over, the little kid gets on a horse and goes for help. Non throws a police light from a car at him and he blows up. A townsperson says, “but he was just a boy.” And Ursa says, “who will never become a man.” Cold!
I wish Donner would have kept some more of the small town scenes, especially the (incredibly dark) kid on the horse scene and Ursa’s reaction, the reversing of time in the Donner Cut would also show the ‘resurrected’ kid, adding a bit to the good ending.
@@raystantz2471 That would make sense, although, I'm glad that sequence made it in. It has real gravitas and now I've got it in HD, so I can seamlessly add it to my fan cut of S2.
@@heartofalegend Yeah there's a really long write up by The Caped Wonder who discussed the extra scenes added and the fact that this digital version can't be bought anymore, and the fact that whoever added them did it without Donner's approval, because he's passed away, and also that they don't know why they were added.
In Donner's version when Superman turns back time why would Clark even mention that the bully was sitting in his favorite chair? the bully wouldn't even remember him from before.
@raulzavala9061 I only meant in the theatrical, since I think the guys were calling Clark petty for going after the guy in that version. It could potentially make sense that Clark would want to set the guy straight in the Donner Cut, but it makes no sense that he doesn't say why, and there's no reason to announce that he'd been lifting weights since nobody ever saw him before.
@@raulzavala9061 Yes....but only Clark knows the reference. Since the bully doesn't acknowledge that comment, the bully doesn't care at all and just wants to fight Clark.
Another change in the Donner cut is in the before the opening credits, where they show the original ending for Superman: The Movie. Superman tosses one of the missiles into space, which destroys the phantom zone containing Zod, Ursa, and Non, allowing them to escape. In the theatrical Lester Cut, it's the hydrogen bomb in the Eiffel Tower elevator that is thrown into space.
When I was a kid getting to watch Superman the movie & Superman 2, when they were released in theaters was awesome! Getting older, you release Lester's version has way too much slapstick in Superman 2. Getting to finally see the Donner Cut, as Donner intended Superman 2 to be. Donner's Cut (for story wise and look) is the superior version. If Warner's can release the Superman 3-hour TV version on DVD, I wish Warner's would do a Special Superman 2 Ultimate Cut, using both of the Lester & Donner versions into one complete movie.
I have the Superman 2 theatrical release on vhs and recently purchased the the collection of all 4 movies with the Richard Donner cut on dvd. I personally didn't like the Donner cut because of dragged out scenes that was not really necessary to make a great movie. I think you have to maintain a balance in your production with fast paced scenes but also getting your point across not revealing alot which is called imagination.
You guys didn't talk about it but John Williams also did not return to score instead he allowed for Ken Thorne to use his musical arrangement which in my opinion actually works well in the movie, yeah sure the orchestra was smaller but everytime I listed to the soundtrack CD it's like I'm playing out the movie in my mind it placed better here than in Superman The Movie, yeah I don't care what John Williams' fans think about.
The Donner cut doesn't have John Williams score over the fluttering news papers when Superman returns which was a goose bump moment for me as kid. I also prefer "step outside" to "freedom of the press" because it feels more like Superman means business. Overall the Donner cut doesn't work for me and that's probably due to watching the original so much in the early 80s.
I actually like “Freedom of the Press” more in that he’s not making it about him. In the Donner Cut he prioritizes Lois, Jimmy, and Perry’s lives over him reasserting his mojo…
I like both the Lester and Donner versions. 1-There is a clear difference in how they both view how a Superman version should be. 2-Lester probably threw in a couple extra, unneccessary scenes, to get credit as Director of the movie (50%+ of the footage), such as flying past an airplane, while making a loopty loop..or making a souffle at the Fortress of Solitude. 3-I feel like Margot Kidder's appearance changed in a couple of the scenes (likely made by Lester)...compared to Donner sequences..how much change can a person have in appearance, in less than 3 years??
The Donner films are coming at the Clark/Superman dynamic from a Pre-Crisis standpoint. The now more familiar idea of Clark being who he is started Post-Crisis. I realize those terms are gonna be jibberish to anyone who doesn’t read comics but in a nutshell there was a reboot in 1986 and before that Clark was basically the disguise with Superman/Kal-El being the real person. At the end of day both are extensions of the same person it’s just that Daily Planet Clark is a couple gears down whereas Superman is a high-gear. Think of it like when you’re at work, you’re yourself but an adjusted version of yourself for the sake of being professional or being customer servicey or whatever. Clark adjusts himself to help facilitate that disguise.
I like Luthor so much better in Superman 2 compared to the first film. He's really funny, clever and wasn't constricted by a generic rich guy villain plot. He got to show more personality and entertainment value making deals with the more physically powerful Kryptonians.
One of the reason the Lester cut didn't include more Donner footage (even though it would've worked fine, story-wise) is that according to DGA rules, Lester had to have the dominant percentage of footage in the final version to gain single directorial authorship.
Just found your show and I’m thrilled!! Algorithm pays off sometimes! I’m 53. Saw Superman 1&2 in the theater. Superman 1 is one of my top 3 favorite movies of all time. I watch it every year. It’s SORELY underrated, and as a comic book junkie, it’s still the GREATEST comic book adaptation ever and set the template for every adaptation since. Superman 2 was enjoyable, but even while watching it at 10 years old, I wished I was watching that “new” movie Raiders of the lost Ark. For years, I always felt “ If only Donner got to finish the sequel “. Well, we finally got to see it in the box set a few years back. I enjoyed it despite the limitations and last year saw a double bill of 1 and the Donner cut of 2 on the big screen. The Kryptonian criminals encounter with the astronauts always felt off to me. Lex in jail is outright dumb. Lois jumping out the window is silly but ok. I appreciate the more serious tone. The Brando scenes are MUCH better. I was also disappointed to find out powered Clark beating up the truck driver was a Donner choice. Not very heroic. Lois discovering Clark is Superman is soooo good, even the test footage works. You can see why Kidder was the perfect choice. If I’m watching Superman 2? It’s the Donner cut, flaws and all. I LOVE Richard Lester as well. Head canon tells me Jor El was right. Superman altered time and created his own inferior movie multiverse, where each sequel got worse and worse. So glad to find this channel, but m I’m looking forward to deep diving all the STMP videos!!
I don't care what everyone says. The theatrical LESTER cut is MUCH better than the Donner cut. For that we already have the masterpiece "Superman The Movie" Superman II is about Paris, Niagara falls and lots of fun.
Lester did a fine job finishing Donner's vision but his comedic sensibilities dominated part 3 and took us away from the realism Donner created. There was almost no action in the Smallville scenes in 1, but are some of the most beautifully shot and acted scenes in the movie. I just love the slow burn where young Clark creates the fortress and spends years learning from his father and Krypton scholars. Then you see Reeve for the first time flying away. I was hooked as a kid from that moment on.
I always thought the one where Lois walked through Superman is actually a hologram which is a well-known technology even then and I happen to like the cellophane S, but I do think it could’ve been designed to look more like energy than a cellophane S.
The Donner Cut was interesting, but I think Lester’s version was better. The only thing I wished Lester would have put in was Clark regaining his powers at the Fortress. Superman returning to Metropolis miraculously having his powers back even as a kid left me scratching my head.
I think Lester's version works the best as we see Clark all helpless and all of a sudden he sees the glowing crystal and the music swelling indicating his powers are coming back.
The story how Ratzenberger got his Cheers job is amazing. He was auditioning for another character and was bombing and as he was leaving. He turned around and said do you have a know it all patron character? They said no and he litterally created the character Cliff Clavin right there at the casting call.
When I was a kid, I used to think that the stuff in the fortress was set up by Superman as traps for Zod. He knew that Luther had been there and knew he would lead them to it. So, he “retreated” to the fortress and set some traps for them. Of course the whole telekinesis stuff is dumb but I did try to rationalize it. I also like the cellophane S shield trap. It’s Kryptonian tech! 😂😂
Yeah that is one way to look at it! And to be fair, for as goofy as Superman III was, Lester didn't bring back any of those made-up powers in that movie. It's basically just the tried-and-true heat vision, super breath, super hearing and so forth.
Yes that’s true. On a side note, my older brother and I still punch in the air and say: “Ever herd of parachutes?!” To this day. We always thought that was funny and not Hackman.
To me, the goofiest scene was Perry White being knocked unconscious when his head was driven through a ceramic ceiling tile that was only 1 mm thick. 😆🤣😂
I also as a kid thought the Zoners fell down into some sort of Fortress holding cell type thing. Which I guess is a very action figure playset way to view it right? Castle Greyskull had a holding cell for bad guys, I think the Super Powers Collection Hall Of Justice also had one, the GI Joe base etc. I also remember thinking that maybe falling down those shafts maybe led to the Phantom Zone somehow and he’d set that up just like he did the thing with the power chamber.
When the Kryptonian villains were turned human, a 20+ foot fall would have done serious damage to their bodies, especially if they landed on a hard crystal surface, like the chutes.
I'll defend Superman's "soft" magic system. We know the hard rules, but his stranger, more loose and even humorous abilities add to the fun. And I think it goes along with a mysterious, Kryptonian set of technology and abilities that we dont quite understand. A Kryptonian trap or weapon would seem strange to us. Same with the capabilities of the Fortress.
The thing to remember about "why did Lester cut that or add that" was his need to get the percentage of his work into it. So yeah, cutting a 2-3 minute scene may seem like a little, but actually it all adds up.
Here's my take on it, I was 5 when I first saw the theatrical cut and I loved every minute of it as a kid I didn't pick up on things like the cellophane \S/ and the blatant product placement, why did I care I was only 5 years old. Now as an adult I can appreciate Donner's cut as an unfinished "lost" film and it's great to finally see more new scenes of Brando but IMO I will always go with the theatrical cut to this day it is the best superhero sequel thus far and the Metropolis battle isn't over the top as Zack Snyder's ridiculous Playstation version of it in Man Of Steel.
Well said. I always like Lester's version but I have to say I've come away with a new appreciation for what he accomplished after digging into all this so deeply for these videos. I just wish Lester had pushed for a better script in Superman III. More on that coming soon...
Oh man! Thrilled you found us, I LOVE the first series and can’t to read the latest! We have another clip where you see me flipping out when I learn that “Metal Curtain” exists. I hope y’all keep that series running, it’s so brilliant. Cheers 👊
Honestly the fact that you haven't seen III and IV might make it extra interesting to do, just to see the contrast between the two. Oddly, IV was the one I had on VHS as a kid and so watched over and over, I only occasionally watched the others as I rented them.
You guys are discussing in depth my absolute favourite movies as a kid. Some friends of the family had taped it off the TV with beta max and paused the adverts out. You know you love something properly when you can keep watching after so many times, know it word for word, and all the emotions you experienced get doubled up. First with your anticipation of the bit you know is coming, and then amplified during the aforementioned bit. Sheesh Christopher Reeves was so perfect for this role and I love Henry Cavill. I've never read a comic book in my life. I was obsessed with Smallville at the time it was airing. Bought the box set seasons and I don't think I've even watched them. The first movie is so fantastic. It's the superhero version of A New Hope
"Superhero version of A New Hope"... you're so right! Star Wars came the year before and those two films have often been tied at number one for me. Lately Superman has taken over the #1 spot. And yes, wow, pausing the commercials out... that was kind of like using the Force, mastering that skill. Often you kinda had to feel the show about come back on. Cheers, thanks for your comments. 👊
The Bully in the bar, it doesn't make sense that Superman goes back for revenge in Donner cut, because after turning back time, it never happen, so it has the feel that people could think something like: what's up with this tall guy with glasses that we just met for the first time in our lives, came and gave a beating to that truck driver. At least he paid the damages afterwards.
Margot was absolutely Amazing in Superman 78. Sadly, she was clearly going through a great deal personally during the period of shooting the Lester footage, she looked nothing like herself, besides the terrible wig she was wearing, poor lighting and makeup. The weight loss in her pretty face was striking when watching the movie with adult eyes and shifting between the Donner and Lester footage. I would go as far as to say that she would have likely never been cast by Donner if she had tested appearing as she did in S #2. It’s strange because she looked herself for her role during amityville horror in 79. In the end, the truth is that we will never know what Donner and Mank would have invented for S#2 if had been given the time and opportunity to elevate the material. Case in point both versions that were shot for Luther’s escape from prison for #2. Having had missed the summer release in 78, they were racing wildly during most of 78 to make the Christmas release. Only Chris could have possibly saved the post for Donner on S#2, had he put his foot down, but it just didn’t work out that way. The baby got thrown out with the bath water.
I remember noticing the difference in Margot's appearence when I watched this movie at about ten years old. I couldnt really figure out why she looked so different between scenes til I learned the whole story about how the movie(s) were made.
I agree with you guys. A combination of the 2 films would be perfect. Each has elements I like. The theater release scene where Superman challenges Zod has a better line than in Donner's version, but Donner has more things I like in his version.
11:11 When I was in my late teens, my grandmother sent me to rent Superman 1 for my much younger cousin. They had a copy of Superman 2, and he'd watched it a million times, so he wanted to see part 1. I did as they'd asked and sat in the room as the movie began, and both my grandmother and my 5-6yo cousin told me "You got the wrong movie! This is the same movie!" I was quite familiar with these movies, and I assured them that I had not made a mistake. This _WAS_ Superman 1. This was a different movie than the one that he'd been watching. But it took them a good 10 minutes or more to begin to even contemplate that I might be right, and they might be wrong.
Many of us did that back in 2006 when the Donner Cut was first released on DVD. We didn't want to have to choose between both versions, but instead, just wanted to have one movie that contained the best of both versions. My original re-edited, re-scored opening title sequence is still on Rumble, as far as I know, and other fans' original title sequence for their fan cuts is also still available for viewing, as well.
In the commentary for Superman The Movie, Donner and Mankiewicz say the plan was originally for part 1 to end with Superman sending the first missile into outer space and it setting the supervillains free from the Phantom Zone, then part II would end with him turning back time. But because 80% of the way through filming the budget had gone insane, the Salkinds said forget about part II, just give us a good part I, so they moved the turning back time ending to part I.
It's my understanding that the phantom zone jail Zod was in never made it to the phantom zone due to Krypton's destruction and was pulled along the course of Superman's ship the same as the Kryptonite fragments. my preference is the Donner cut, it's a little more serious and Non feels like much more of a menace and less like odd incompetent goof.
Donner Cut without a doubt. I do really like the theatrical as well, but Donner Cut shows a more cohesive story. Only downside of Donner Cut is no "care to step outside". Awesome vid guys.
One other thing I forgot to mention was.... 1.There is film footage that Lester shot that is in Donner's Cut because Donner was sacked/fired and therefore he could not film it at the time. 2.Donner's Cut has two crucial footage that is NOT in Lester's cut and they are ALL the Gene Hackman and Marlon Brando footage .....you will not see ANY footage of both actors in Lester's cut and that is what makes the Donner Cut the best.🙂👍
Yep, we talk about that in the episode. Cheers 👊 Just edited to add THANK YOU! Sorry I've been replying to comments for hours today, I'm getting a little dizzy.
Superman II : the Donner cut It’s the only one I can watch without cringing. Because Superman the movie and Superman II were supposed to be one saga Mario Puzo. You had people at the top of their game working on the first film and the second would have been a beautiful ending. Thank God, we were able to see it in theform it is currently in at least. There is no iteration of Superman that has been done since the first film that has not taken from it because it was so forward thinking and visionary. Shot together, written as one piece…. They blend perfectly together as masterpieces. I applaud the effort to make the Donner cut a reality. To remove him from the film, from Superman II and completing his vision in 1979 was disgraceful. but even worse, was to replace him with Richard Lester, who was following him around set during the shooting of Superman the movie. It’s such an ugly business. Hollywood is an ugly place. No loyalty.
Even though 70 percent of *Superman II* was shot by Richard Donner before his firing, in order for Richard Lester to receive director credit, he had to finish the remaining 30 percent in addition to another 19 percent to achieve filming 51 percent of the movie. Therefore, many of Donner's scenes were reshot and rewritten in addition to dumping Marlon Brando's footage to save money.
In almost every situation, I prefer the Director's Cut over the original release. But in this case, the theatrical cut is far superior to the Donner Cut. And I say this knowing that it's a compromised film. But in almost every situation where they replaced the Lester scenes with the Donner scenes, the Donner scenes are just terrible. Like, so bad that I can't believe that the person who directed the 1978 film also directed the "new" footage in Superman II. Every choice is just so tonally, thematically, stylistically, and narratively wrong (and at odds with what he established in the 1978 film). As imperfect as it is, I think the Lester Cut is so much better. It has wit, it has cleverness, it has (for the most part) a stronger narrative logic. I think Lester gets a bad rap from comic book fans who bought into the cult of the Donner Cut, but he's a terrific filmmaker. A Hard Day's Night, The Three Musketeers, The Four Musketeers, even the maligned Return of the Musketeers are all terrific films. I used to love the Superman films when I was younger, but unlike other genre films from around the same time (the aforementioned Musketeers films, the Star Wars films, Dragonslayer, the Indiana Jones films, the Back to the Future films), these movies have not aged as well. So while I still have residual nostalgic affection for them, I rarely have the patience to revisit them anymore like I often do with the other films I mentioned above. To that end, from the few videos that I've seen from you guys, I gather that you're not fans of the Snyder DC films. But one of the things that I really like about Man of Steel is how it basically "fixes" the structural problems with Superman and Superman II by taking the first half of Superman and mashing it together with Superman II. Had the first Superman film been structured more like that, I think it would have aged better. (The structural problems I'm referring to is that the first half of Superman 1978 (the Krypton and Smallville scenes) has nothing to do with the second half of the film (the Lex Luthor plot). I recognize that it all foreshadows the sequel, but I think Man of Steel is a stronger film because its Krypton and Smallville scenes are integrated into the main story (e.g., Zod and company invading Earth), and then the Lex Luthor plot (essentially the equivalent to the second half of Superman 1978) is saved for the sequel.)
Thanks for that -- yeah, neither version is perfect. I agree the Lester version stands superior, but it's not really a fair comparison... the Donner Cut really can't be judged as a whole film, because it isn't, really. As editor Michael Thau has said, it's really more of an experiment or an elaborate DVD bonus feature. We'll never really know what Donner would have done with II, because by the time he halted production on it, the end of the first movie had changed dramatically. Sadly we can only imagine what his completed film would have been like. Yeah, definitely not a big fan of Snyder's stuff with DC. I did enjoy the Snyder Cut of JL, and I thought Watchmen was pretty freaking great. You're right, the structure of Man of Steel is good, for me it's just mainly how Snyder/Goyer chose to portray the character that I don't like. But that's a whole other ball of wax.
Superman II is always gonna be a "Frankenstein" type film because of how Margot Kidder looks between either cut. She's physically different in the Lester footage than she is in the Donner footage.
If no one else has mentioned it, the scene in the Donner Cut where Clark goes back to take revenge on the guy in the diner is not only petty, but he's taking revenge for something that NEVER HAPPENED.
OMG SUPERMAN III would have been awesome if Lex Luthor and Lois Lane had gotten super powers from the Kryptonian rays that took away the powers of the villains in Superman II. And Superman and Lois had to defeat Lex in Superman III. That would have been much better than what we got with Richard Pryor in the actual movie.
I think it’s just a joke, at most a reference to plain old hide-and-seek. But I think he was playfully messing with Lois, because at this point he was basically just toying with Zod, waiting for the right moment to pull his reverse molecule chamber trick.
Yeah that could definitely explain some of those things, Kryptonian tech, etc. But even then we’re left with weird stuff like the levitating finger laser thing that the villains do.
@@prodigioussaps Truw there is a lot of Nonsenes happening, its just my way of thinking of the strange crap that's going on lol.. anyway great video guys
About the three kryptonians, I would connect that with what they show on Smallville series, although there's a big time difference. In smallville the type of encasement those three are in seem to be some sort of "waiting hall" to later get to the Phantom Zone, so if this is the case they never get to the Phantom Zone in the Donnerverse, instead they are trapped in this "no mans land" encasement. I take it that with the destruction of Krypton the order of the transition from the encasement to the Phantom Zone never came to be.
One interesting difference I saw between the 2 versions was how Superman dealt with Non in the fight scene over Metropolis. In Lester's version he comically kicks him, while in the Donner footage, after Ursa says she doubts he'd hit her because she is a woman, Superman turns right around and hits Non with a clenched fist, just what one would expect the Man of Steel to do.
That line by Ursa is from the extended ABC broadcast airing of S2 directed by Lester, the Metropolis fight in the theatrical is still the best whereas the fight in the Donner version is clearly hobbled together using whatever footage was at hand and looks clunky and unfinished.
Great recap, but I think you missed the point with the diner scene. When Clark goes back to punish the dinner bully after regaining his powers, he didn't do it because he had been personally humiliated. He did it because the trucker had bulled a person -the fact that the person was himself is irrelevant. Imagine if the Clark had gone to the diner when he didn't have powers and he saw the trucker bullying some other guy and Clark knew he was powerless to stop him. Do you really think he wouldn't have avenged that person once he got his powers back?
As a kid, I always wondered,when Supes turns back time,who(or what) does he not save to make up that time to save Lois?.I always pictured him let someone else maybe die to save her?.And if Supes can turn back time,why not go back a little further and stop Lex Luther’s plan before he can hatch it
IMO the biggest issue is that they decided to make this a two movie story. They should of just been stand alone. For one everything feels rushed. Continuity issues are everywhere. 1. Why is Luthor serving 25 to life without a trial? 2. In Donners version the 3 criminals escape WHILE Superman is saving California. I could write an essay on how much this story makes no sense. I just feel that love connection happens way too soon. Especially with him giving up his powers. It's too fast.
A lot of people forget that a lot of Richard Lester's Superman 2 footage was filmed by Richard Donner himself so Lester had to film footage to allow him to be credited as the Director.....so for me the Original footage/is Richard Donner's so the Donner Cut is the one to go for.
I like the Richard Donner cut. However, there are things I preferred about the Richard Lester version. Some of the romantic moments with Sup and Lois were a bit choppy and could have lasted several seconds longer in the Donner cut. Some of the alternate takes in the original Superman 2 were better.
I think you should review Superman 3. It's worth checking out and despite the critics trashing it the way they did, they didn't give it a fair shot, all because it wasn't viewed as strong as the previous two films. That said, the comedy element does dominate the storyline, due to the Richard Pryor character being a computer hacker. However there are some good strong, dark moments in the film that I feel do not get the respect they deserve, such as Superman's fight with his "evil" self in the auto graveyard. I won't spoil it, but you'll see how he manages to overcome this entity and complete his mission. I saw Superman 3 when it came out and I was six years old and thought it was really cool. Over time, I've noticed what scenes work and the ones that do not. to push the plot forward and could have been omitted.
After watching this video, I decided to revisit both versions last night... specifically paying attention to the excessive use of ADR. Besides Luthor's heavy ADR, it seems like Ursa's voice was much higher pitched in many of the Donner shots. Lester may have had her use a deeper (more menacing) voice.
Good catch! Wouldn’t surprise me… he definitely did that with Zod as well. You can totally hear the difference in his voice in the Donner footage. Either it’s ADR or some kind of studio trickery to down pitch their voices slightly. Someone here in the comments knows, I’m sure.
IIRC Lester had to be responsible for at least 50% of the film to be able to put his name on it, hence he needed to reshoot Donner scenes even if he might not have otherwise wanted to.
Yeah I read something along those lines but according to the Hollywood Director's Guild the film needs at least 70% for it to be considered under Lester's name.
love your guys videos, BUT i got to point out what i consider the biggest plot failure. why would Lois want to be with "Clark" after he gives up his powers??? sorry to make her out to be shallow, but the only reason Lois ever fell in love with "Superman" is because he is THE ultimate ALPHA male? they first met as part of him rescuing her. so come on, as soon as she heard him bargaining away his powers i think she would have been saying: "wait wait wait, ugh, lets talk about this". or maybe after clark gets his butt kicked, lois says: "ya know, i have been thinking about doing this story on a playboy billionaire from Gotham, i think i will be on assignment for a couple weeks - see ya"
Haaaa yeah that is a great point. They do kind of hint at it a little bit in that overdubbed dialog as they’re driving to the diner afterwards, Clark’s awkward “Hey you’re awfully quiet over there…” I don’t know if it’s a plot failure really, because the point seems to be the whole thing was a huge mistake to begin with, and the dire consequences start playing out almost immediately, with him totally unprepared to defend her without his powers, and then of course the Zod drop. But yeah it would have been good to have Lois vocally expressing doubt about it right before he steps in the chamber. And thanks!! 👊
@@prodigioussaps In "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut", when Kal steps into the chamber to remove his powers, Marlon-El looks at Lois with actual anger!
Richard Donner specifically said that the 'Turn Back Time' scene was meant to be in "Superman Ii" because it was the best way for Kal-El to fix what happened when The Phantom Zone was shattered. However, when alexander and ilya salkunt saw the time reversal footage, they insisted that it be used for the first movie! Lois was never supposed to die in "Superman: The Movie"!!!
Yeah, although I've heard different stories about who came up with that idea, moving the ending to the first movie. There was at least one interview I heard where Donner made it sound like it was his idea, but he might have been misremembering how the idea it started. Funny thing is, I think it works so much better in the first movie than how it was originally scripted for II. I think by that point Donner and "Mank" were really on a roll, so the revisions to the first script to fit that in work so, so damn well.
Richard Donner Directed 100% of Superman the Movie and also Directed 80% of Superman 2 so Donner only needed to complete 20% more before he was sacked.....Then Lester comes along and has to take out 40-45% of Donner's footage and then film his footage to be credited as Director of Superman2.
Haven't watched your vid yet, but I'm trying to remember if Clark took away Zod's powers then crushed all the bones in his normal hand with his super strength in both versions. Also, sending normal human criminals down a bottomless arctic chasm is hella Snydery for Reeve's Clark. 😂 I know there's a deleted scene that shows Zod et al getting arrested, but it's not in the final cut so I'm saying he killed them (with Lois' help). 😂
Lester needed to shoot more than half the film with his own style as Donner refused to share credit with him. That's why Lester has to reshoot scenes differently. The ending where we see the Kryptonians alive wasn't in the Donner Cut & was in the deleted footage section. As a kid I always felt Superman killed them because as you guys mention, they are vulnerable humans now & the fortress is built on top of the freezing Arctic waters. Even if the falls don't kill them, the hyperthermia will. It's also quite interesting how people will justify torture sinply because it's not death, even though they are being tortured. Superman in the comics for the most part wouldn't torture them by breaking their human hand & throwing them across the room. Superman also has killed in the comics (he's killed Zod the most) too but again rarely. To be fair though since he turns back time, their deaths & the entire film becomes pointless as it never happened. Funny enough the powers we see have shown up in the comics, I think the cellophane S was new, but the super kiss & beams in the Silver Age. Keep in mind that in the Silver Age, tiny versions of Superman would come out of his hands, so it got nuts. We do see what the Phantom Zone looks like in Supergirl (1984) The Donner Cut version of the identity reveal is a cool moment, however you have the added issue that somehow Superman can't feel a bullet hit him but he could feel a crowbar hit him. It doesn't make sense. In that case, while the Donner Cut version is cooler, the Lester Cut makes more sense. But in reality both are stupid because Lois is a well known writer & should've just been able to figure it out without circumstances like those. The Paris scene I always felt like it was movie time. Basically while Lois is doing what we see her doing, that's happening at the same time as Clark discovering that Lois is there & changing into Superman. So while it is building tension, as soon as Superman leaves Lois is already under the elevator & he gets there in time. Also Paris & Metropolis being in the same time zone sticks out like a sore thumb. Lois jumping out of the window is just stupidly on her part. The Clark persona we see in the Reeve films was unique, it's not a comic book trait. It was something Christopher Reeve created to add to why people are fooled by the glasses. I think it's a poor choice, not that he's terrible but Clark bumbling around sticks out like a sore thumb. Clark as in the comics doesn't stick out. He's very much just another person. Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Henry Cavill, Tom Welling, Dean Cain all played Clark without the clumsiness & I felt were all better because of it. Even Tyler Hoechlin, who originally played Superman & Clark like Christopher Reeve changed his portrayal when he got his own show & is great. The Donner Cut version of losing his powers is a better scene, as you stated it has nothing to do with sex. It's a rebellious moment for him because Jor El is telling him he can't have a relationship because he's meant for greater things. It's a moment where he goes against his father's wishes for his own needs. Which is diluted a bit because we already seen him do that in Superman: The Movie when he makes the choice to reverse time to save Lois. With the Lester version he's basically just horny. Again this is a story point I don't like in either version but I do think Donner handled it better. Smallville also used the idea that Clark gives up his powers to be with Lois and have kids on the Crisis on Infinite Earths saga on CW. Since the Donner years we've seen Lois and Clark have children with Clark having powers. In fact even during this time Clark and Lois have had a child already in the comics Clark Kent Jr, so not sure why this was even a plot point. Terrence Stanp is amazing, he's even great as the voice of Jor El in Smallville. I do prefer Michael Shannon in Man of Steel, simply because he has a more emotional journey through the film. Like Thanos or Magneto, you understand his mindset but he's just the villain so you have to be against him. There was a Donner Cut scene that surprisingly didn't make it into the film & that's the child who's killed by Non. Now why didn't Lois drive Clark back to the fortress? She just went back while he was freezing on foot? There's no reason for Lex Luthor to know that Superman & Lois are a couple or have feelings. The only thing he knows is Lois interviewed Superman initially. The fight is great, it's a funny fact if you watch this fight & the fight in Man of Steel, Superman causes more destruction here than in MOS. Most of the destruction in MOS was caused by the World Engine & when Superman is fighting Zod he's trying to stay alive. He's literally never fought anyone before & just got his full powers whereas in Superman 2 he's been with his full powers for a while. I do suggest that you watch both fights back to back & you'll see Superman causes more destruction in Superman 2 than he does in MOS. I'm also not someone who even has a problem in either film because I am a fan of both & the eras in comics they are pulling from (mainly Golden Age, Post Crisis & New 52). Superman can't just lead Zod away in MOS as Zod made it clear he'll kill the humans because Superman chose Earth over his own kind. In Superman 2, Zod would've followed because he doesn't really care about the human beings until he notices that Superman cares AND when Superman does leave, they go back to threaten them, they don't even consider following Superman until Lex tells them he knows where they are, so essentially Superman leaves them to possibly be killed. Think about it. Zod tells them Superman fled & next time they seem him they'll kill him. Superman saved the whole planet in MOS. And we did see him save people throughout the film, so not sure why so many fixate on just the fight at the end where he has little control over anything and is mostly on the defense. Now Superman crushing Zods hand, I have no issue with but with all the "Superman is supposed to be perfect" crowd, it really makes me question why no one complains about him crushing his hand & throwing him to the wall? And in the Donner Cut Clark goes back to the diner to beat up the driver who now doesn't know him. Again, superheroes (only DC, Marvel can do anything) can't kill but they can torture. Superman 2 The Donner Cut isn't as mind blowing as Zack Snyder's Justice League, but that's only because Donner couldn't finish it while Snyder did, but it is ultimately a better cut of the film tonally, even with their being a toilet in the fortress. In the comics Superman went to another Earth, de powered Zod, Faora & a 3rd Kryptonian so they became human & than killed them because they threatened to find a way to his Earth & destroy it like they did theirs. Superman may 9 out of 10 times find another way, but there's always that once that he'll do something he normally doesn't do. Great video guys, while I may disagree in areas it was great to watch. MY SUPERMAN RANKINGS (The 1st 2 are equally great giving us a true to life Superman of the time) Man of Steel Superman: The Movie BVS: Ultimate Edition Superman 2 (both cuts) ZSJL Superman 3 Superman Returns Superman 4
Cheers man, thanks so much for your thoughts. 👊 You clearly have spent a lot more time watching MoS than I have, so I'm not going to argue with you. That film is just not my jam, as the kids say. But again, thanks for commenting.
@prodigioussaps fair enough Superman has always been my favorite of the Trinity, so I do get passionate about the films. Sorry for the long post, I commented as I watched.
y'all got to watch and review Superman III and IV. I will give Superman IV this credit for creating a villain that's not part of Superman's rogue gallery. I thought the costume and Nuclear man's theme music sounded so good. I have all of the Superman movies and would watch Superman III and 4 but not all the time. I love the theatrical cut of Superman 2 and like some stuff in Donner's Superman 2. I wish he had just worked on the first movie, finish it and then working on Superman 2.
Cool, yeah we definitely will. Should be interesting at least! I haven't seen 4 since it came out. Watched III dozens of time on cable TV when I was a teenager. It's funny watching it again now because all the Richard Pryor humor hits me and I'm like mannn I remember using that line!!
@@prodigioussaps am not sure if a lot of people knew this, years ago CW channel used to be the WB channel, they would show a lot of movies, I remember around October, they would have one week they would show Nightmare on Elm St movies and the next week they would show the halloween movies. They did the same thing for all of the Superman movies. Superman 3 and 4 had tv movies. What I mean by that is if you watch Superman 3, the how it started is completely different from the beginning of Superman 3 they have right now on streaming and Blu etc.
Yes, there were added scenes to pad the broadcast out so long to be able to include ad breaks. I recorded 3 in 1988 or something and that’s the version I grew up with. You can find a montage of the cut scenes in YT. I have no idea why the longer version wasn’t released on video or DVD but it doesn’t feel the same watching the cut version.
I think you'd enjoy the Donner Cut just to see the alternate versions of the scenes. A lot of it is better, some of it is just different. But it's not really a complete movie, so keep that in mind going in.
I am literally astounded that you have not seen superman 3. You will probably see the shorter version with cut scenes. 42:29 I always wondered why Lois just stood by while superman decides to give up his powers. Why not intervene? Also 19:56 I’m no physicist, but I think maybe the kryptonians are so heavy that with the low gravity of the moon they would walk pretty normally unaffected? We see in Supergirl that the guy can’t even pick her up, and Superman weighs 225 as revealed in 1.
Good point about Lois in that scene, I think maybe she was just speechless at what she was witnessing. She does reveal later that she’s basically just stunned that he gave up his powers for her. Also good point about their weight! While we’re talking about this scene, I wonder has anyone come up with an explanation as to how they can speak in a vacuum…
@ Haha. There is no explanation for that one. But it happens again briefly in 4 as you’ll see. I’m still flabbergasted you haven’t seen the last 2. Like wow 😵💫 I enjoyed this vid, many good points that I had thought of but never heard discussed before. 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼(stayed up til 3am to watch)
Thanks so much! It’s Brendan that hasn’t seen III or IV yet, and yeah I was surprised to learn that myself. I haven’t seen Superman IV since it was in theaters, but it’s also been many many years since I’ve watched Superman III all the way through. I watched it on cable TV dozens of times when I was a teenager.
@@prodigioussaps It always bothered me that Lois seems so nonchalant about Superman denouncing his Kryptonian heritage, too - not even a step forward and cry "no!" Wouldn't they be lighter on the moon ..just as we are? now I am confused. It's seems an accepted convention in Superman that Kryptonians can speak in a vacuum. I've seen it in recent iterations also. Superman and Lois in the second season. Superman speaks to his brother, Tal-Rho when they reach the sun. Lois and Clark, he speaks to his clone in space. They shouldn't be able to breathe in a vacuum, either. (Lois and Clark mentions he has to hold his breath but then totally forgets in in other episodes.) Superman has never been a hard-science fiction story - it's like the pulp fiction of the 1920s and 30s or even earlier - science-fantasy?
@@prodigioussaps I don't know. I really liked the movie, but I have problems with some aspects of it. I like the portrayal of Krypton as being like if the USSR had managed genetic engineering-- cheating everyone out of freedom even as they're created. Given how Snyder describes the story in interviews, maybe Superman didn't even care about directing Zod away. But I've seen videos where, meticulously, with video, Superman is shown 1) not allowing anyone to die 2) attempting to get Zod away from populous areas. I would like to think those are true. But after that, BVS came out, and showed that hundreds, or thousands, of people died.
I get where you're coming from? Even though Lester's was not bad? Except for the scenes with the terrorist's? Donners version was better. In my opinion.
Yeah, frankly the more I dig into this the more sympathy I have for Lester. He wasn't the right man for the job (only Donner was, frankly), but Superman II could have been so much worse if Lester hadn't been there.
I can go with the multiple Superman’s in the fortress as I just see it as some tech that Jor El made in the fortress. After all he can project himself as a hologram so why couldn’t Kal be able to utilise similar technology? I definitely prefer the Theatrical cut over the Donner Cut but really there’s a great version of Superman II if they combined elements of both as I feel the Brando scenes would elevate the film. Lastly the kiss, it’s silly but it does bizarrely have comic origins.
Sorry reacting as I’m watching The artic police scene is deleted therefore isn’t canon. It’s not in either cut, the Donner Cut features it as a deleted scene on the disc but not as part of the movie. The only version it exists in is the Restored International Cut. I don’t really see an issue with the way Zack Snyder did things. It’s just a different approach, his is how would this go down in the real world? And buildings would certainly get absolutely demolished. I can understand if it’s not for you but it’s a perfectly valid interpretation and shouldn’t be mocked for doing it differently imo. Also the kiss from Man of Steel always gets brought up but again I don’t see an issue with it. They’ve just been through hell together and it’s a moment of relief for them. It’s much worse in Aquaman when Arthur kisses Mera amongst all the killing happening right as they’re locking lips. Yet nobody ever brings that up.
Yeah, to be clear I personally don't WANT the Arctic Patrol scene to be canon, because the idea that the Fortress is easily accessible to anyone other than Superman is very silly. However I don't consider Zod's death to be canon, BUT at the same time I also don't consider his survival to be canon... because we don't really see either result. It's kinda like Schrödinger's Zod. I prefer the latter because that's how it was scripted, but ultimately nobody's wrong or right on that score, IMO. Sorry if our MoS takes offend you... we're just being honest! If we think something's stupid or bad we're not going to pull punches. We poke an almost equal amount of jabs at movies we love, as well. Keep in mind nothing we say is ever meant to be a reflection on your tastes or your fandom.
@ Schrödingers Zod I like that 😂 I don’t have issues with people disliking stuff I like. Or poking fun at, heck I poke fun at stuff I like. It’s when the validity of it something isn’t accepted that I take issue. Not that you were doing that.
I think i'd have preferred a combined version with elements from both movies, Donner didn't really get to shot his own full version so we could never get what he intended. So a combination of the movies would be the better option, as a kid I obviously only saw the Lester and loved it and didn't really notice all the stuff we see later on... As for the fortress fight, as a kid, i always felt that when he went back, and "programed" some holographic simulations cause he knew that he'd some some kind of "defense" or distraction against 3 who are equal in power to him. So that Cellophane would be a distraction to confuse them, which is what you basically see on Non's face after it supposedly attached him. It would also make the whole disappearing and reappearing scene better, cause Super Speed doesn't seem to fit in this, but Holograms and Trickery would work much better. Lastly, the whole de-powering the villains and crashing them, the logic I see here is that when Superman lost his powers, he was in a concentrated small area and he wasn't sure how it would affect them as they may get less exposure in a wide area, therefor you don't have a similar losing scene like he had, as they would probably notice/feel that they lost their powers. At the same time, he behaved weak and tested if they have lost their powers to avoid suspicion.... Note: In Israel we got the "international Cut" of the movie, where we actually had the scenes where the police takes the criminals away, so for *me* that's the official canon version which shows he clearly didn't kill anyone. But I find it funny of Snyder Cultist will vouch for the "Snyder Cut" and call it official to make any excuse, but ignore the "Donner Cut" when comparing Superman killing Zod in the two versions... and during the battle, as you mentioned, Superman looks and tries to save people and Zod said "he actually cares" but in Snyder, he made Superman into such an uncaring alien that he only saves cause he happens to be around but not cause he wants to, but he wants to be liked... so suddenly caring about that family that he kills Zod for, doesn't feel justified...
Replying again for your addition about the international cut. Man that’s wild, thank you, I never knew much about that version. I need to see if I can find a copy of that. Nail on the head about MoS, couldn’t have said it better myself..
@@prodigioussaps I believe that version of the movie was on Television in the US and some of the extra scenes were restored, although not sure if it was with agreement with Donner/Lester but it makes far more sense...
@@prodigioussaps I thought it would be logical, you can see the confused look on Lois's face when she sees him coming out, you didn't have the "explosions" like when he was depowered and they weren't in pain. It would seem that they just momentarily lost their powers due to the exposure to red sun radiation, while he was "genetically" altered (as we saw in that whole scene) and felt more painful for him while they didn't seem to notice...
Lots of laughter watching this. Thanks. I only saw III and IV this year. I really didn't want to watch them but bought a boxed collection. I resisted for quite a while.. I'm hate feeling embarrassed for a Character I like as much as Superman. ( same as Mr. Brendan does.) I skip the evil Superman scenes... but there are some good moments with the huge computer. Definitely shows some of the paranoia of the 1980s (1983) concerning the future of computers and their effect on society - there is a funny scene with a superman game using the graphics of that time. Computer nerds talked a lot about the future back then. Richard Pryor dates the story and some of his humor falls flat, but I've known computer programmers and being a smart programmer doesn't mean you have common sense. The Fourth movie isn't all that bad, either. It is a period piece, but no one who grew up in the cold war can be totally repelled by the themes and message. I think Christopher Reeve contributed to the writing of it. It is very touching when Superman says that he wishes humanity could see Earth the he does and admits (at the end of the movie) that humanity has to make the decision to live or die, not him. He was wrong to try to intervene. The fight scenes between him and Nuclear Man aren't all bad, either. Although, the flying statue of liberty is cracks me up, every time. Very few buildings collapsed during the making of that movie, at least and Superman tried to protect humans. I really thought he killed them. It was the only assumption I could make... Superman isn't supposed to kill but there might be times he does it accidentally or out of necessity. I knew of the scene with the police but i thought it was completely discarded. The two versions reminds me of a crazy quilt. Lots of bits and pieces but no one coherent pattern. I wish they had done more house-keeping. Am I the only one who screams at the screen.. "Hey, people go home! Don't stand around while super beings are fighting!" "Stupid New Yorkers!" I prefer the way the Superman and Lois relationship was handled in latter iterations of the story. In Lois and Clark they do marry but he can not father children of a earth woman. In Superman and Lois, they do have children but their lives aren't easy. There is no reason Superman couldn't marry, except it would distract him and, also, Jor-El's demands. He shouldn't have to live the life a Templar knight, it's just going to be a very great challenge to be Clark, Superman and father and husband.. His life should be his own, and he'd have to decide what was best. The Superman myth is definitely being effected by the myths of Super humans and demi-gods. No doubt. I was confused about the blanks too. I had to look it up. Blank Cartridges: a primer, some sort of propellant and makes a loud sound, also, can be dangerous, gives some recoil but there is no projectile (bullet). If Lois fired a blank there would be a bit of fire out of the Muzzle and a bang but no bullet.
Yay! A video's never really published until Kathleen chimes in. 👊 Yeah, we'll get into this with the next breakdown video, but the thing with Richard Pryor is so frustrating. The guy was so talented and absolutely loved Superman, but they didn't write his character very well. Him being a untapped computer genius wasn't an altogether bad idea, but the way they portray his genius as "I don't know, I just did it" is missing the mark by mile. He should have been saying things like "Well, it's obvious, isn't it? You call this subroutine here to run this bla bla" or whatever to show that he's intuitively figured out how it works. Instead they make it seem like he's just typing random crap into the computer. But that was pretty typical of how Hollywood handled computer stuff back then. One exception I think was WarGames -- even that was dumbed down considerably, but Matthew Broderick and his hacker friends felt more like real-life computer guys to me.
@@prodigioussaps I'm here. Having too much fun not to comment. They didn't write great scripts for the Superman movies, for the most part. None of the Superman movies were as good as they could have been. Even the first one. I wish they had written a far more dangerous Lex Luthor. Less slap-stick. I wish they had done more. Star Trek & Star Wars should have put everyone on notice that science fiction should be respected. I think the problem was they considered comic book movies, kid's fare, not serious movie making. They didn't take the scripts - and their jobs - seriously? Billion dollar Comic book movies were decades in the future. The computer age was in its infancy. There was little to no CGI. (?) I would suggest that Hollywood really didn't know how to write computer programmers in 1983. They hadn't met many and the ones that they had met they didn't understand. (my theory) Computer programmers are like magicians. Even if they explain to you how they made a computer do some job- thingie, you aren't going to understand them unless you are a computer programmer, yourself. You are right about "I don't know, I just did it" comments being ridiculous, I agree, and "it's obvious' would be much better a way to explain his insights. (obvious to whom?) Love Richard Pryor. Again, the writing. Again, they didn't know programmers. But I've been there with a computer --- I just "did it" Not a clue how. I always document my successes - or try to. I found the right procedures without know what the heck I was doing. Pure dumb luck. Or, pure desperation. Computers are very strange beasts and dealing with them is always an adventure. It is also ridiculous that anyone could build a super computer in 1983. It was the memory dilemma (both RAM and ROM) , and - we were still using real 'floppies' back then. 5 inch floppies to be exact. The exponential increases in memory storage and volatile memory were still in the future. It really was 'the coming thing'. ;-) I might check out War Games. I don't remember it, but it sounds familiar. I've always thought the movie "Colossus" was good for it's time.
My question is why would Lex Luthor (a genius) even approach THREE Kryptonian villains without a kryptonite stash or ring? For a master mind he wasn’t very prepared.
Hm. A couple people around my age, give or take, with reasonable opinions that often differ from mine but are based in a love for or appreciation of these characters? I may have found my home. Let’s get the party started. 0:08
Superman doesn't turn back time and it's not because he feels sorry for her?!. He goes back in time to a point before she died and entered back into the time line at that point and goes to make sure she was ok.
In the Donner Cut, Clark doesn’t go confront the bully for petty revenge. He was at the diner to get the food Lois asked for in the previous scene. The bully just happened to be there. Clark knowing Rocky’s true nature, he knew that he’d be the one to throw the first punch…
@ Because he’s Superman, haha! The dude picked up exotic flowers from the tropics… (yeah, I know that’s the Lester cut, but a trip to Alaska for Superman is like a walk down the street for us)
Ha, okay. I think you’re being nice to him, but it seems pretty clear he knew that guy would be there. Also he was prepared with a wad of cash to cover damages and leaves without ordering anything. But if that works for you cool man!!
I think it's another example, just like "interfering with human history", of Superman choosing his human side. It may not be quite as noble as most of his other acts, but it is understandable given the sense of humiliation he might have felt.
@@buddymckane1179 mankewicz wrote it, but it was directed by Lester and re-tooled from what it was supposed to be. Donner even complains about how it was directed in the Donner Cut commentary.
Which is your preferred version and why:
* SUPERMAN II or
* SUPERMAN II: The Donner Cut?
Superman II: The Adventure Continues.
@@prodigioussaps Donner Cut. It seems to have a more serious tone.
They are both flawed, they both have great elements. Can't pick just one. It's a good thing we have both, it would be even better if we had one version with the good parts and fewer flaws.
A better edited Donner Cut with about 5-10% more Lester footage to cover awkward parts I think is the ideal version.
Theatrical.
Not sure the beef with Supes made up powers. The character was defined by confidently made up powers.
One piece of dialogue you didn't mention is the icing on top of the cake when Clark enters the diner at the end. He see's the bully and says 'gee, that's funny, I've never seen garbage eat garbage before'. It's funny and corny all at once and completely fits the tone of his one liners.
Yeah, I do like that line! Cheers
I always felt a human Clark Kent could have still taken that guy out. Reeve was a big dude.
Terrence Stamp as General Zod is the quintessential comic villain. He was so perfectly in character.
Yes, hard to think of anyone better.
Kneel before Terrence Stamp!
@19:00 I worked with John on CHEERS and asked him about that. (He's also in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK)
He told me that it was because the union require that the film have a certain amount of American actors, and he was an American ex-patriot living in England at the time, so he got a lot of work on American productions.
Okay, wow cool! Thanks so much for that. Yeah I was kicking myself during the edit that we didn't mention John's appearance in EMPIRE because we highlight two other Star Wars actors (Angus McInnes and Richard LeParmentier).
What a trip to see you in the comments, btw -- great fan of your work, I just watched "Ackbar's Eleven" late last night and love it -- BRILLIANT editing work on that piece, monsieur! CHEERS 👊
Alright so thanks to you guys I finally got around to watching the Donner Cut. I definitely have some thoughts. While some of the Lester Schtick is silly, I missed some of the silliness... Not all of it. but some of it. I didn't like that they eliminated the scene where the Kryptonians first arrive on planet houston and wreak havoc, but rather just cut to the little town burning and going crazy. Stuff I really liked was that we finally learn why superman was able to get his powers back. It always bugged me in the original version that he just grabs the green crystal and next scene he has his powers back. That said, I did NOT like the turn back time ending. My issue is, it seems to me that in the hierarchy of Jorel rules superman might break, messing with human history ranks a little higher than having a human girlfriend. So if he's so willing to TWICE turn back time and mess with history, why then is he unwilling to say "screw you dad, I'm gonna be with lois and keep my powers". Now, perhaps if he went the spiderman route of saying he doesn't want to put Lois in danger since he'll always have enemies, maybe.
Another thing that hit me, somehow more in this version, was that I didn't buy that Superman would let go of his powers to be with lois and not even consider the possibility that, maybe, one of the reasons she's so hot for him is because of his powers. I mean, she's this gorgeous "career gal" that won't look twice at Clark, but falls head over heals for Superman. Maybe, just maybe, him flying her around the night sky in superman 1 had something to do with that. Now, no more powers, it would never occur to him that she might find him a lot less appealing?
Cool, glad you finally saw it! Yeah, I think I agree with everything you're saying.
I have many problems with the whole giving-up-his-powers thing, but I do like the high stakes situation it puts him in, so I'm kind of torn.
The time reversing ending of the Donner Cut is definitely problematic, but I choose to look past it because in reality, there isn't an ending for the Donner Cut, as he was never able to finish the movie. Turning back time was the original ending for II, but once they halted production on II and moved the time reversal moment to the first movie, they were planning to write and shoot a totally new ending for II. Lester's answer was the magic kiss (probably concocted by screenwriter David Newman), but we'll never really know what Donner and Mankiewicz would have done. I think of it like a lost Beatles album or something like that... we can piece together what it might have been, but ultimately it's just fragments of a great movie that was never finished.
I loved the scene when the villains enter the diner and the guy says "The Circus is in town" and Ursa arm wrestles the guy and destroys him and the table.
Good, but even Over the Top still didn't beat the best arm wrestling scene in The Fly remake.
The TV version had a lot of extras too that are hard to find. In the small town Zod is taking over, the little kid gets on a horse and goes for help. Non throws a police light from a car at him and he blows up. A townsperson says, “but he was just a boy.” And Ursa says, “who will never become a man.” Cold!
I wish Donner would have kept some more of the small town scenes, especially the (incredibly dark) kid on the horse scene and Ursa’s reaction, the reversing of time in the Donner Cut would also show the ‘resurrected’ kid, adding a bit to the good ending.
It's included in the alternate Donner version on Vudu, or at least it was. Hopefully, Warner Bros didn't pull it, yet.
@@heartofalegend From what I've read, anything added to the Donner Cut was done without his approval and should not have been added to it.
@@raystantz2471 That would make sense, although, I'm glad that sequence made it in. It has real gravitas and now I've got it in HD, so I can seamlessly add it to my fan cut of S2.
@@heartofalegend Yeah there's a really long write up by The Caped Wonder who discussed the extra scenes added and the fact that this digital version can't be bought anymore, and the fact that whoever added them did it without Donner's approval, because he's passed away, and also that they don't know why they were added.
I'm surprised that you didn't catch it on your IMDB search, but the TV reporter/SW Death Star officer is Sarah Douglas' (Ursa) real-life husband.
It's made clear that the truck driver beats up weak guys on a regular basis.
So I thought Clark was justified to go back and beat him up.
They kept that truck driver who needed a lesson in "Man of Steel" also, but Clark decided not defeat him in public just destroyed his rig.
In Donner's version when Superman turns back time why would Clark even mention that the bully was sitting in his favorite chair? the bully wouldn't even remember him from before.
@raulzavala9061 I only meant in the theatrical, since I think the guys were calling Clark petty for going after the guy in that version.
It could potentially make sense that Clark would want to set the guy straight in the Donner Cut, but it makes no sense that he doesn't say why, and there's no reason to announce that he'd been lifting weights since nobody ever saw him before.
@@kathleenhensley5951 That's ridiculous, much like the rest of that movie.
@@raulzavala9061 Yes....but only Clark knows the reference. Since the bully doesn't acknowledge that comment, the bully doesn't care at all and just wants to fight Clark.
Another change in the Donner cut is in the before the opening credits, where they show the original ending for Superman: The Movie. Superman tosses one of the missiles into space, which destroys the phantom zone containing Zod, Ursa, and Non, allowing them to escape. In the theatrical Lester Cut, it's the hydrogen bomb in the Eiffel Tower elevator that is thrown into space.
When I was a kid getting to watch Superman the movie & Superman 2, when they were released in theaters was awesome!
Getting older, you release Lester's version has way too much slapstick in Superman 2. Getting to finally see the Donner Cut, as Donner intended Superman 2 to be. Donner's Cut (for story wise and look) is the superior version. If Warner's can release the Superman 3-hour TV version on DVD, I wish Warner's would do a Special Superman 2 Ultimate Cut, using both of the Lester & Donner versions into one complete movie.
I have the Superman 2 theatrical release on vhs and recently purchased the the collection of all 4 movies with the Richard Donner cut on dvd. I personally didn't like the Donner cut because of dragged out scenes that was not really necessary to make a great movie. I think you have to maintain a balance in your production with fast paced scenes but also getting your point across not revealing alot which is called imagination.
You guys didn't talk about it but John Williams also did not return to score instead he allowed for Ken Thorne to use his musical arrangement which in my opinion actually works well in the movie, yeah sure the orchestra was smaller but everytime I listed to the soundtrack CD it's like I'm playing out the movie in my mind it placed better here than in Superman The Movie, yeah I don't care what John Williams' fans think about.
The Donner cut doesn't have John Williams score over the fluttering news papers when Superman returns which was a goose bump moment for me as kid. I also prefer "step outside" to "freedom of the press" because it feels more like Superman means business. Overall the Donner cut doesn't work for me and that's probably due to watching the original so much in the early 80s.
I actually like “Freedom of the Press” more in that he’s not making it about him. In the Donner Cut he prioritizes Lois, Jimmy, and Perry’s lives over him reasserting his mojo…
I call the paper flutter/music 'our generations portal scene'. It's far superior to the "Freedom of the Press" version.
I like both the Lester and Donner versions.
1-There is a clear difference in how they both view how a Superman version should be.
2-Lester probably threw in a couple extra, unneccessary scenes, to get credit as Director of the movie (50%+ of the footage), such as flying past an airplane, while making a loopty loop..or making a souffle at the Fortress of Solitude.
3-I feel like Margot Kidder's appearance changed in a couple of the scenes (likely made by Lester)...compared to Donner sequences..how much change can a person have in appearance, in less than 3 years??
The Donner films are coming at the Clark/Superman dynamic from a Pre-Crisis standpoint. The now more familiar idea of Clark being who he is started Post-Crisis. I realize those terms are gonna be jibberish to anyone who doesn’t read comics but in a nutshell there was a reboot in 1986 and before that Clark was basically the disguise with Superman/Kal-El being the real person.
At the end of day both are extensions of the same person it’s just that Daily Planet Clark is a couple gears down whereas Superman is a high-gear. Think of it like when you’re at work, you’re yourself but an adjusted version of yourself for the sake of being professional or being customer servicey or whatever. Clark adjusts himself to help facilitate that disguise.
I like Luthor so much better in Superman 2 compared to the first film. He's really funny, clever and wasn't constricted by a generic rich guy villain plot. He got to show more personality and entertainment value making deals with the more physically powerful Kryptonians.
@@Weezing336 Gene Hackman didn't film a single minute of film for Richard Lester, so that was all Donner stuff
One of the reason the Lester cut didn't include more Donner footage (even though it would've worked fine, story-wise) is that according to DGA rules, Lester had to have the dominant percentage of footage in the final version to gain single directorial authorship.
Yep, you’re right, we didn’t touch on that detail.
That is basically what I said above.🙂
They could have got a waiver for that but that would of needed Donner's permission and I'm sure the producers and Richard were not talking.
Yeah Donner was just over it, and I don’t blame him.
Just found your show and I’m thrilled!! Algorithm pays off sometimes! I’m 53. Saw Superman 1&2 in the theater. Superman 1 is one of my top 3 favorite movies of all time. I watch it every year. It’s SORELY underrated, and as a comic book junkie, it’s still the GREATEST comic book adaptation ever and set the template for every adaptation since.
Superman 2 was enjoyable, but even while watching it at 10 years old, I wished I was watching that “new” movie Raiders of the lost Ark.
For years, I always felt “ If only Donner got to finish the sequel “. Well, we finally got to see it in the box set a few years back. I enjoyed it despite the limitations and last year saw a double bill of 1 and the Donner cut of 2 on the big screen.
The Kryptonian criminals encounter with the astronauts always felt off to me. Lex in jail is outright dumb. Lois jumping out the window is silly but ok. I appreciate the more serious tone.
The Brando scenes are MUCH better. I was also disappointed to find out powered Clark beating up the truck driver was a Donner choice. Not very heroic.
Lois discovering Clark is Superman is soooo good, even the test footage works. You can see why Kidder was the perfect choice.
If I’m watching Superman 2? It’s the Donner cut, flaws and all. I LOVE Richard Lester as well.
Head canon tells me Jor El was right. Superman altered time and created his own inferior movie multiverse, where each sequel got worse and worse.
So glad to find this channel, but m I’m looking forward to deep diving all the STMP videos!!
Cheers George! Thanks so much - glad you found us. I like your head canon about the consequences of time travel being crappy sequels.
I don't care what everyone says. The theatrical LESTER cut is MUCH better than the Donner cut. For that we already have the masterpiece "Superman The Movie" Superman II is about Paris, Niagara falls and lots of fun.
I think I prefer the theatrical cut myself.
I agree. I don't know if Donner had already done a lot and the other director didn't do much or what, but Superman II was already my favorite.
Had Donner's Cut came out first (as it was intended to be in 1980) would you say the same?
@@davidm4566Donner filmed 80% of S2 before he was sacked/fired
Lester did a fine job finishing Donner's vision but his comedic sensibilities dominated part 3 and took us away from the realism Donner created. There was almost no action in the Smallville scenes in 1, but are some of the most beautifully shot and acted scenes in the movie. I just love the slow burn where young Clark creates the fortress and spends years learning from his father and Krypton scholars. Then you see Reeve for the first time flying away. I was hooked as a kid from that moment on.
I always thought the one where Lois walked through Superman is actually a hologram which is a well-known technology even then and I happen to like the cellophane S, but I do think it could’ve been designed to look more like energy than a cellophane S.
The Donner Cut was interesting, but I think Lester’s version was better. The only thing I wished Lester would have put in was Clark regaining his powers at the Fortress.
Superman returning to Metropolis miraculously having his powers back even as a kid left me scratching my head.
I think Lester's version works the best as we see Clark all helpless and all of a sudden he sees the glowing crystal and the music swelling indicating his powers are coming back.
The story how Ratzenberger got his Cheers job is amazing. He was auditioning for another character and was bombing and as he was leaving. He turned around and said do you have a know it all patron character? They said no and he litterally created the character Cliff Clavin right there at the casting call.
When I was a kid, I used to think that the stuff in the fortress was set up by Superman as traps for Zod. He knew that Luther had been there and knew he would lead them to it. So, he “retreated” to the fortress and set some traps for them. Of course the whole telekinesis stuff is dumb but I did try to rationalize it. I also like the cellophane S shield trap. It’s Kryptonian tech! 😂😂
Yeah that is one way to look at it! And to be fair, for as goofy as Superman III was, Lester didn't bring back any of those made-up powers in that movie. It's basically just the tried-and-true heat vision, super breath, super hearing and so forth.
Yes that’s true. On a side note, my older brother and I still punch in the air and say: “Ever herd of parachutes?!” To this day. We always thought that was funny and not Hackman.
I always felt it was stuff that the Fortress was equipped with that helped him get the upper hand too.
To me, the goofiest scene was Perry White being knocked unconscious when his head was driven through a ceramic ceiling tile that was only 1 mm thick. 😆🤣😂
Yeah that was odd.. Lol
I also as a kid thought the Zoners fell down into some sort of Fortress holding cell type thing. Which I guess is a very action figure playset way to view it right? Castle Greyskull had a holding cell for bad guys, I think the Super Powers Collection Hall Of Justice also had one, the GI Joe base etc.
I also remember thinking that maybe falling down those shafts maybe led to the Phantom Zone somehow and he’d set that up just like he did the thing with the power chamber.
When the Kryptonian villains were turned human, a 20+ foot fall would have done serious damage to their bodies, especially if they landed on a hard crystal surface, like the chutes.
No, Supes deceased them 😂 I think Zack Snyder was a young AD on set and was put in charge of the ending with all the on set turmoil. 😉
I'll defend Superman's "soft" magic system. We know the hard rules, but his stranger, more loose and even humorous abilities add to the fun. And I think it goes along with a mysterious, Kryptonian set of technology and abilities that we dont quite understand. A Kryptonian trap or weapon would seem strange to us. Same with the capabilities of the Fortress.
The thing to remember about "why did Lester cut that or add that" was his need to get the percentage of his work into it. So yeah, cutting a 2-3 minute scene may seem like a little, but actually it all adds up.
True, that was a big part of it.
The “magic kiss” was actually a power in the comics. Matter fact if u read older some Superman comix, they always made up goofy powers.
Here's my take on it, I was 5 when I first saw the theatrical cut and I loved every minute of it as a kid I didn't pick up on things like the cellophane \S/ and the blatant product placement, why did I care I was only 5 years old. Now as an adult I can appreciate Donner's cut as an unfinished "lost" film and it's great to finally see more new scenes of Brando but IMO I will always go with the theatrical cut to this day it is the best superhero sequel thus far and the Metropolis battle isn't over the top as Zack Snyder's ridiculous Playstation version of it in Man Of Steel.
Well said. I always like Lester's version but I have to say I've come away with a new appreciation for what he accomplished after digging into all this so deeply for these videos. I just wish Lester had pushed for a better script in Superman III. More on that coming soon...
I appreciate you featuring our comic in the background! Making the Superman ‘78 comic sequels with the full cast has been a boyhood dream come true!
Oh man! Thrilled you found us, I LOVE the first series and can’t to read the latest! We have another clip where you see me flipping out when I learn that “Metal Curtain” exists. I hope y’all keep that series running, it’s so brilliant. Cheers 👊
@@artmonkeys I am envious of everyone working on that comic!
@ChristopherJonesArt Holy crap, another DC star! Cheers, Mr. Jones - means the world to us that you guys are finding our stuff. 👊
@ Always interested in making more comics!
@@prodigioussaps you should get the two series artists to come on your show! They’re both very affable!
Honestly the fact that you haven't seen III and IV might make it extra interesting to do, just to see the contrast between the two. Oddly, IV was the one I had on VHS as a kid and so watched over and over, I only occasionally watched the others as I rented them.
You guys are discussing in depth my absolute favourite movies as a kid. Some friends of the family had taped it off the TV with beta max and paused the adverts out. You know you love something properly when you can keep watching after so many times, know it word for word, and all the emotions you experienced get doubled up. First with your anticipation of the bit you know is coming, and then amplified during the aforementioned bit. Sheesh Christopher Reeves was so perfect for this role and I love Henry Cavill. I've never read a comic book in my life. I was obsessed with Smallville at the time it was airing. Bought the box set seasons and I don't think I've even watched them. The first movie is so fantastic. It's the superhero version of A New Hope
"Superhero version of A New Hope"... you're so right! Star Wars came the year before and those two films have often been tied at number one for me. Lately Superman has taken over the #1 spot.
And yes, wow, pausing the commercials out... that was kind of like using the Force, mastering that skill. Often you kinda had to feel the show about come back on. Cheers, thanks for your comments. 👊
@@nathangrund7216 Reeve, not Reeves
The Bully in the bar, it doesn't make sense that Superman goes back for revenge in Donner cut, because after turning back time, it never happen, so it has the feel that people could think something like: what's up with this tall guy with glasses that we just met for the first time in our lives, came and gave a beating to that truck driver. At least he paid the damages afterwards.
Also the sequence of Superman flying with the American flag and the replacement roof talking to the president was not there.
Margot was absolutely Amazing in Superman 78. Sadly, she was clearly going through a great deal personally during the period of shooting the Lester footage, she looked nothing like herself, besides the terrible wig she was wearing, poor lighting and makeup. The weight loss in her pretty face was striking when watching the movie with adult eyes and shifting between the Donner and Lester footage. I would go as far as to say that she would have likely never been cast by Donner if she had tested appearing as she did in S #2. It’s strange because she looked herself for her role during amityville horror in 79. In the end, the truth is that we will never know what Donner and Mank would have invented for S#2 if had been given the time and opportunity to elevate the material. Case in point both versions that were shot for Luther’s escape from prison for #2. Having had missed the summer release in 78, they were racing wildly during most of 78 to make the Christmas release. Only Chris could have possibly saved the post for Donner on S#2, had he put his foot down, but it just didn’t work out that way. The baby got thrown out with the bath water.
I remember noticing the difference in Margot's appearence when I watched this movie at about ten years old. I couldnt really figure out why she looked so different between scenes til I learned the whole story about how the movie(s) were made.
I agree with you guys. A combination of the 2 films would be perfect. Each has elements I like. The theater release scene where Superman challenges Zod has a better line than in Donner's version, but Donner has more things I like in his version.
11:11 When I was in my late teens, my grandmother sent me to rent Superman 1 for my much younger cousin. They had a copy of Superman 2, and he'd watched it a million times, so he wanted to see part 1. I did as they'd asked and sat in the room as the movie began, and both my grandmother and my 5-6yo cousin told me "You got the wrong movie! This is the same movie!"
I was quite familiar with these movies, and I assured them that I had not made a mistake. This _WAS_ Superman 1. This was a different movie than the one that he'd been watching. But it took them a good 10 minutes or more to begin to even contemplate that I might be right, and they might be wrong.
Ha, that’s great. Cheers 👊
I hope someone puts together a “Super” cut of both versions to take the best of both movies.
Many of us did that back in 2006 when the Donner Cut was first released on DVD. We didn't want to have to choose between both versions, but instead, just wanted to have one movie that contained the best of both versions. My original re-edited, re-scored opening title sequence is still on Rumble, as far as I know, and other fans' original title sequence for their fan cuts is also still available for viewing, as well.
In the commentary for Superman The Movie, Donner and Mankiewicz say the plan was originally for part 1 to end with Superman sending the first missile into outer space and it setting the supervillains free from the Phantom Zone, then part II would end with him turning back time. But because 80% of the way through filming the budget had gone insane, the Salkinds said forget about part II, just give us a good part I, so they moved the turning back time ending to part I.
It's my understanding that the phantom zone jail Zod was in never made it to the phantom zone due to Krypton's destruction and was pulled along the course of Superman's ship the same as the Kryptonite fragments.
my preference is the Donner cut, it's a little more serious and Non feels like much more of a menace and less like odd incompetent goof.
That’s a cool theory!
Donner Cut without a doubt. I do really like the theatrical as well, but Donner Cut shows a more cohesive story. Only downside of Donner Cut is no "care to step outside". Awesome vid guys.
Thanks Bobby! 👊 Yeah that was a much better line, no question.
One other thing I forgot to mention was....
1.There is film footage that Lester shot that is in Donner's Cut because Donner was sacked/fired and therefore he could not film it at the time.
2.Donner's Cut has two crucial footage that is NOT in Lester's cut and they are ALL the Gene Hackman and Marlon Brando footage .....you will not see ANY footage of both actors in Lester's cut and that is what makes the Donner Cut the best.🙂👍
Yep, we talk about that in the episode. Cheers 👊
Just edited to add THANK YOU! Sorry I've been replying to comments for hours today, I'm getting a little dizzy.
Superman II : the Donner cut
It’s the only one I can watch without cringing.
Because Superman the movie and Superman II were supposed to be one saga
Mario Puzo. You had people at the top of their game working on the first film and the second would have been a beautiful ending.
Thank God, we were able to see it in theform it is currently in at least.
There is no iteration of Superman that has been done since the first film that has not taken from it because it was so forward thinking and visionary.
Shot together, written as one piece….
They blend perfectly together as masterpieces.
I applaud the effort to make the Donner cut a reality.
To remove him from the film, from Superman II and completing his vision in 1979 was disgraceful.
but even worse, was to replace him with Richard Lester, who was following him around set during the shooting of Superman the movie. It’s such an ugly business.
Hollywood is an ugly place. No loyalty.
The Lester Cut > The Donner Cut
When it comes too superman's heat vision as Clarke his glasses didn't get melted in superman 2
Yeah I remember thinking that as a kid... why didn't he tilt his glasses down first?
Even though 70 percent of *Superman II* was shot by Richard Donner before his firing, in order for Richard Lester to receive director credit, he had to finish the remaining 30 percent in addition to another 19 percent to achieve filming 51 percent of the movie. Therefore, many of Donner's scenes were reshot and rewritten in addition to dumping Marlon Brando's footage to save money.
"I'm the man they're protecting. I'm the president. I'll kneel before you if it will save lives"
"It will! Starting with your own" lol 😆
Great line!
In almost every situation, I prefer the Director's Cut over the original release. But in this case, the theatrical cut is far superior to the Donner Cut. And I say this knowing that it's a compromised film. But in almost every situation where they replaced the Lester scenes with the Donner scenes, the Donner scenes are just terrible. Like, so bad that I can't believe that the person who directed the 1978 film also directed the "new" footage in Superman II. Every choice is just so tonally, thematically, stylistically, and narratively wrong (and at odds with what he established in the 1978 film).
As imperfect as it is, I think the Lester Cut is so much better. It has wit, it has cleverness, it has (for the most part) a stronger narrative logic. I think Lester gets a bad rap from comic book fans who bought into the cult of the Donner Cut, but he's a terrific filmmaker. A Hard Day's Night, The Three Musketeers, The Four Musketeers, even the maligned Return of the Musketeers are all terrific films.
I used to love the Superman films when I was younger, but unlike other genre films from around the same time (the aforementioned Musketeers films, the Star Wars films, Dragonslayer, the Indiana Jones films, the Back to the Future films), these movies have not aged as well. So while I still have residual nostalgic affection for them, I rarely have the patience to revisit them anymore like I often do with the other films I mentioned above. To that end, from the few videos that I've seen from you guys, I gather that you're not fans of the Snyder DC films. But one of the things that I really like about Man of Steel is how it basically "fixes" the structural problems with Superman and Superman II by taking the first half of Superman and mashing it together with Superman II. Had the first Superman film been structured more like that, I think it would have aged better.
(The structural problems I'm referring to is that the first half of Superman 1978 (the Krypton and Smallville scenes) has nothing to do with the second half of the film (the Lex Luthor plot). I recognize that it all foreshadows the sequel, but I think Man of Steel is a stronger film because its Krypton and Smallville scenes are integrated into the main story (e.g., Zod and company invading Earth), and then the Lex Luthor plot (essentially the equivalent to the second half of Superman 1978) is saved for the sequel.)
Thanks for that -- yeah, neither version is perfect. I agree the Lester version stands superior, but it's not really a fair comparison... the Donner Cut really can't be judged as a whole film, because it isn't, really. As editor Michael Thau has said, it's really more of an experiment or an elaborate DVD bonus feature. We'll never really know what Donner would have done with II, because by the time he halted production on it, the end of the first movie had changed dramatically. Sadly we can only imagine what his completed film would have been like.
Yeah, definitely not a big fan of Snyder's stuff with DC. I did enjoy the Snyder Cut of JL, and I thought Watchmen was pretty freaking great. You're right, the structure of Man of Steel is good, for me it's just mainly how Snyder/Goyer chose to portray the character that I don't like. But that's a whole other ball of wax.
Superman II is always gonna be a "Frankenstein" type film because of how Margot Kidder looks between either cut. She's physically different in the Lester footage than she is in the Donner footage.
If no one else has mentioned it, the scene in the Donner Cut where Clark goes back to take revenge on the guy in the diner is not only petty, but he's taking revenge for something that NEVER HAPPENED.
OMG SUPERMAN III would have been awesome if Lex Luthor and Lois Lane had gotten super powers from the Kryptonian rays that took away the powers of the villains in Superman II. And Superman and Lois had to defeat Lex in Superman III. That would have been much better than what we got with Richard Pryor in the actual movie.
Superman’s line ‘we used to play this game as kids.’ How is that possible since he left Krypton as an infant?😮
I think it’s just a joke, at most a reference to plain old hide-and-seek. But I think he was playfully messing with Lois, because at this point he was basically just toying with Zod, waiting for the right moment to pull his reverse molecule chamber trick.
The Thing about his Powers like the Plastic S, he throws etc, I always believed his Powers are stronger and Differnt in the Fortress of Solitute
Yeah that could definitely explain some of those things, Kryptonian tech, etc. But even then we’re left with weird stuff like the levitating finger laser thing that the villains do.
@@prodigioussaps Truw there is a lot of Nonsenes happening, its just my way of thinking of the strange crap that's going on lol.. anyway great video guys
Thanks Sky!
About the three kryptonians, I would connect that with what they show on Smallville series, although there's a big time difference. In smallville the type of encasement those three are in seem to be some sort of "waiting hall" to later get to the Phantom Zone, so if this is the case they never get to the Phantom Zone in the Donnerverse, instead they are trapped in this "no mans land" encasement. I take it that with the destruction of Krypton the order of the transition from the encasement to the Phantom Zone never came to be.
One interesting difference I saw between the 2 versions was how Superman dealt with Non in the fight scene over Metropolis. In Lester's version he comically kicks him, while in the Donner footage, after Ursa says she doubts he'd hit her because she is a woman, Superman turns right around and hits Non with a clenched fist, just what one would expect the Man of Steel to do.
That line by Ursa is from the extended ABC broadcast airing of S2 directed by Lester, the Metropolis fight in the theatrical is still the best whereas the fight in the Donner version is clearly hobbled together using whatever footage was at hand and looks clunky and unfinished.
Great recap, but I think you missed the point with the diner scene. When Clark goes back to punish the dinner bully after regaining his powers, he didn't do it because he had been personally humiliated. He did it because the trucker had bulled a person -the fact that the person was himself is irrelevant. Imagine if the Clark had gone to the diner when he didn't have powers and he saw the trucker bullying some other guy and Clark knew he was powerless to stop him. Do you really think he wouldn't have avenged that person once he got his powers back?
Thank you 2 so much for this conversation.
Thank you for watching! Cheers 👊
He dropped his shoulders and a great performance and scene I love it still watches it today!
As a kid, I always wondered,when Supes turns back time,who(or what) does he not save to make up that time to save Lois?.I always pictured him let someone else maybe die to save her?.And if Supes can turn back time,why not go back a little further and stop Lex Luther’s plan before he can hatch it
I bet Pepper Martin (Rocky) was a really nice guy, may he Rest in Peace.
IMO the biggest issue is that they decided to make this a two movie story. They should of just been stand alone. For one everything feels rushed.
Continuity issues are everywhere.
1. Why is Luthor serving 25 to life without a trial?
2. In Donners version the 3 criminals escape WHILE Superman is saving California.
I could write an essay on how much this story makes no sense. I just feel that love connection happens way too soon. Especially with him giving up his powers. It's too fast.
A lot of people forget that a lot of Richard Lester's Superman 2 footage was filmed by Richard Donner himself so Lester had to film footage to allow him to be credited as the Director.....so for me the Original footage/is Richard Donner's so the Donner Cut is the one to go for.
Also there are continuity errors with Lois. In some scenes she looks kinda sickly and gaunt, and other times she looks more healthy.
The Donner Cut has some cool stuff, but it’s stale and unfinished.
The theatrical version is extraordinary.
Some day you should watch Superman 3 and 4 but the next movie you watch should be Superman Returns which is a direct sequel to Superman 1 and 2.
Fair point!
Superman returns is still my favorite of the older movies.
@@kathleenhensley5951 Superman Returns is my favorite sequel to the original Superman.
I like the Richard Donner cut. However, there are things I preferred about the Richard Lester version. Some of the romantic moments with Sup and Lois were a bit choppy and could have lasted several seconds longer in the Donner cut. Some of the alternate takes in the original Superman 2 were better.
I think you should review Superman 3. It's worth checking out and despite the critics trashing it the way they did, they didn't give it a fair shot, all because it wasn't viewed as strong as the previous two films. That said, the comedy element does dominate the storyline, due to the Richard Pryor character being a computer hacker. However there are some good strong, dark moments in the film that I feel do not get the respect they deserve, such as Superman's fight with his "evil" self in the auto graveyard. I won't spoil it, but you'll see how he manages to overcome this entity and complete his mission. I saw Superman 3 when it came out and I was six years old and thought it was really cool. Over time, I've noticed what scenes work and the ones that do not. to push the plot forward and could have been omitted.
We definitely will, aiming to get the review recorded this week. Cheers 👊
After watching this video, I decided to revisit both versions last night... specifically paying attention to the excessive use of ADR. Besides Luthor's heavy ADR, it seems like Ursa's voice was much higher pitched in many of the Donner shots. Lester may have had her use a deeper (more menacing) voice.
Good catch! Wouldn’t surprise me… he definitely did that with Zod as well. You can totally hear the difference in his voice in the Donner footage. Either it’s ADR or some kind of studio trickery to down pitch their voices slightly. Someone here in the comments knows, I’m sure.
Ursa was overdubbed by the actress in Suoerman III who plays the sister of the main villain. The one that gets turned into a robot. Name escapes me.
@reuvengershon6625 Ahhh right, Annie Ross! Thanks for that.
IIRC Lester had to be responsible for at least 50% of the film to be able to put his name on it, hence he needed to reshoot Donner scenes even if he might not have otherwise wanted to.
Yeah I read something along those lines but according to the Hollywood Director's Guild the film needs at least 70% for it to be considered under Lester's name.
love your guys videos, BUT i got to point out what i consider the biggest plot failure. why would Lois want to be with "Clark" after he gives up his powers??? sorry to make her out to be shallow, but the only reason Lois ever fell in love with "Superman" is because he is THE ultimate ALPHA male? they first met as part of him rescuing her. so come on, as soon as she heard him bargaining away his powers i think she would have been saying: "wait wait wait, ugh, lets talk about this". or maybe after clark gets his butt kicked, lois says: "ya know, i have been thinking about doing this story on a playboy billionaire from Gotham, i think i will be on assignment for a couple weeks - see ya"
Haaaa yeah that is a great point. They do kind of hint at it a little bit in that overdubbed dialog as they’re driving to the diner afterwards, Clark’s awkward “Hey you’re awfully quiet over there…”
I don’t know if it’s a plot failure really, because the point seems to be the whole thing was a huge mistake to begin with, and the dire consequences start playing out almost immediately, with him totally unprepared to defend her without his powers, and then of course the Zod drop. But yeah it would have been good to have Lois vocally expressing doubt about it right before he steps in the chamber.
And thanks!! 👊
@@prodigioussaps In "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut", when Kal steps into the chamber to remove his powers, Marlon-El looks at Lois with actual anger!
I definitely think you should watch & review III & IV.
Yes, please review Superman III, Supergirl, and Superman IV: TQFP. Great review guys!
Thanks! Cheers
Richard Donner specifically said that the 'Turn Back Time' scene was meant to be in "Superman Ii" because it was the best way for Kal-El to fix what happened when The Phantom Zone was shattered. However, when alexander and ilya salkunt saw the time reversal footage, they insisted that it be used for the first movie! Lois was never supposed to die in "Superman: The Movie"!!!
Yeah, although I've heard different stories about who came up with that idea, moving the ending to the first movie. There was at least one interview I heard where Donner made it sound like it was his idea, but he might have been misremembering how the idea it started.
Funny thing is, I think it works so much better in the first movie than how it was originally scripted for II. I think by that point Donner and "Mank" were really on a roll, so the revisions to the first script to fit that in work so, so damn well.
Richard Donner Directed 100% of Superman the Movie and also Directed 80% of Superman 2 so Donner only needed to complete 20% more before he was sacked.....Then Lester comes along and has to take out 40-45% of Donner's footage and then film his footage to be credited as Director of Superman2.
I want a joke version where the lights go on in the fortress and the villains clothing changes to dress shirts and slacks.
Haven't watched your vid yet, but I'm trying to remember if Clark took away Zod's powers then crushed all the bones in his normal hand with his super strength in both versions.
Also, sending normal human criminals down a bottomless arctic chasm is hella Snydery for Reeve's Clark. 😂
I know there's a deleted scene that shows Zod et al getting arrested, but it's not in the final cut so I'm saying he killed them (with Lois' help). 😂
Yep both versions. Hope you enjoy the video! Let us know. Cheers 👊
I'd like if WB could release a remaster of the international cut, much as they did with the first movie.
Kal El
Is Superman and Clark Kent at the same time
Dude, spoiler alert!!!
Lester needed to shoot more than half the film with his own style as Donner refused to share credit with him. That's why Lester has to reshoot scenes differently.
The ending where we see the Kryptonians alive wasn't in the Donner Cut & was in the deleted footage section. As a kid I always felt Superman killed them because as you guys mention, they are vulnerable humans now & the fortress is built on top of the freezing Arctic waters. Even if the falls don't kill them, the hyperthermia will. It's also quite interesting how people will justify torture sinply because it's not death, even though they are being tortured. Superman in the comics for the most part wouldn't torture them by breaking their human hand & throwing them across the room. Superman also has killed in the comics (he's killed Zod the most) too but again rarely. To be fair though since he turns back time, their deaths & the entire film becomes pointless as it never happened.
Funny enough the powers we see have shown up in the comics, I think the cellophane S was new, but the super kiss & beams in the Silver Age.
Keep in mind that in the Silver Age, tiny versions of Superman would come out of his hands, so it got nuts.
We do see what the Phantom Zone looks like in Supergirl (1984)
The Donner Cut version of the identity reveal is a cool moment, however you have the added issue that somehow Superman can't feel a bullet hit him but he could feel a crowbar hit him. It doesn't make sense. In that case, while the Donner Cut version is cooler, the Lester Cut makes more sense. But in reality both are stupid because Lois is a well known writer & should've just been able to figure it out without circumstances like those.
The Paris scene I always felt like it was movie time. Basically while Lois is doing what we see her doing, that's happening at the same time as Clark discovering that Lois is there & changing into Superman. So while it is building tension, as soon as Superman leaves Lois is already under the elevator & he gets there in time. Also Paris & Metropolis being in the same time zone sticks out like a sore thumb.
Lois jumping out of the window is just stupidly on her part.
The Clark persona we see in the Reeve films was unique, it's not a comic book trait. It was something Christopher Reeve created to add to why people are fooled by the glasses. I think it's a poor choice, not that he's terrible but Clark bumbling around sticks out like a sore thumb. Clark as in the comics doesn't stick out. He's very much just another person. Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Henry Cavill, Tom Welling, Dean Cain all played Clark without the clumsiness & I felt were all better because of it. Even Tyler Hoechlin, who originally played Superman & Clark like Christopher Reeve changed his portrayal when he got his own show & is great.
The Donner Cut version of losing his powers is a better scene, as you stated it has nothing to do with sex. It's a rebellious moment for him because Jor El is telling him he can't have a relationship because he's meant for greater things. It's a moment where he goes against his father's wishes for his own needs. Which is diluted a bit because we already seen him do that in Superman: The Movie when he makes the choice to reverse time to save Lois.
With the Lester version he's basically just horny.
Again this is a story point I don't like in either version but I do think Donner handled it better. Smallville also used the idea that Clark gives up his powers to be with Lois and have kids on the Crisis on Infinite Earths saga on CW.
Since the Donner years we've seen Lois and Clark have children with Clark having powers. In fact even during this time Clark and Lois have had a child already in the comics Clark Kent Jr, so not sure why this was even a plot point.
Terrence Stanp is amazing, he's even great as the voice of Jor El in Smallville. I do prefer Michael Shannon in Man of Steel, simply because he has a more emotional journey through the film. Like Thanos or Magneto, you understand his mindset but he's just the villain so you have to be against him.
There was a Donner Cut scene that surprisingly didn't make it into the film & that's the child who's killed by Non.
Now why didn't Lois drive Clark back to the fortress? She just went back while he was freezing on foot?
There's no reason for Lex Luthor to know that Superman & Lois are a couple or have feelings. The only thing he knows is Lois interviewed Superman initially.
The fight is great, it's a funny fact if you watch this fight & the fight in Man of Steel, Superman causes more destruction here than in MOS.
Most of the destruction in MOS was caused by the World Engine & when Superman is fighting Zod he's trying to stay alive. He's literally never fought anyone before & just got his full powers whereas in Superman 2 he's been with his full powers for a while. I do suggest that you watch both fights back to back & you'll see Superman causes more destruction in Superman 2 than he does in MOS. I'm also not someone who even has a problem in either film because I am a fan of both & the eras in comics they are pulling from (mainly Golden Age, Post Crisis & New 52). Superman can't just lead Zod away in MOS as Zod made it clear he'll kill the humans because Superman chose Earth over his own kind. In Superman 2, Zod would've followed because he doesn't really care about the human beings until he notices that Superman cares AND when Superman does leave, they go back to threaten them, they don't even consider following Superman until Lex tells them he knows where they are, so essentially Superman leaves them to possibly be killed. Think about it. Zod tells them Superman fled & next time they seem him they'll kill him.
Superman saved the whole planet in MOS. And we did see him save people throughout the film, so not sure why so many fixate on just the fight at the end where he has little control over anything and is mostly on the defense.
Now Superman crushing Zods hand, I have no issue with but with all the "Superman is supposed to be perfect" crowd, it really makes me question why no one complains about him crushing his hand & throwing him to the wall? And in the Donner Cut Clark goes back to the diner to beat up the driver who now doesn't know him. Again, superheroes (only DC, Marvel can do anything) can't kill but they can torture.
Superman 2 The Donner Cut isn't as mind blowing as Zack Snyder's Justice League, but that's only because Donner couldn't finish it while Snyder did, but it is ultimately a better cut of the film tonally, even with their being a toilet in the fortress.
In the comics Superman went to another Earth, de powered Zod, Faora & a 3rd Kryptonian so they became human & than killed them because they threatened to find a way to his Earth & destroy it like they did theirs. Superman may 9 out of 10 times find another way, but there's always that once that he'll do something he normally doesn't do.
Great video guys, while I may disagree in areas it was great to watch.
MY SUPERMAN RANKINGS (The 1st 2 are equally great giving us a true to life Superman of the time)
Man of Steel
Superman: The Movie
BVS: Ultimate Edition
Superman 2 (both cuts)
ZSJL
Superman 3
Superman Returns
Superman 4
Cheers man, thanks so much for your thoughts. 👊 You clearly have spent a lot more time watching MoS than I have, so I'm not going to argue with you. That film is just not my jam, as the kids say. But again, thanks for commenting.
@prodigioussaps fair enough Superman has always been my favorite of the Trinity, so I do get passionate about the films.
Sorry for the long post, I commented as I watched.
No worries man! I see your passion and I admire it! That’s why we’re here 👊
Cliffs?
TV version shows the villains being arrested by the police
y'all got to watch and review Superman III and IV. I will give Superman IV this credit for creating a villain that's not part of Superman's rogue gallery. I thought the costume and Nuclear man's theme music sounded so good. I have all of the Superman movies and would watch Superman III and 4 but not all the time. I love the theatrical cut of Superman 2 and like some stuff in Donner's Superman 2. I wish he had just worked on the first movie, finish it and then working on Superman 2.
Cool, yeah we definitely will. Should be interesting at least! I haven't seen 4 since it came out. Watched III dozens of time on cable TV when I was a teenager. It's funny watching it again now because all the Richard Pryor humor hits me and I'm like mannn I remember using that line!!
@@prodigioussaps am not sure if a lot of people knew this, years ago CW channel used to be the WB channel, they would show a lot of movies, I remember around October, they would have one week they would show Nightmare on Elm St movies and the next week they would show the halloween movies. They did the same thing for all of the Superman movies. Superman 3 and 4 had tv movies. What I mean by that is if you watch Superman 3, the how it started is completely different from the beginning of Superman 3 they have right now on streaming and Blu etc.
Oh really, what was different?
Yes, there were added scenes to pad the broadcast out so long to be able to include ad breaks. I recorded 3 in 1988 or something and that’s the version I grew up with. You can find a montage of the cut scenes in YT. I have no idea why the longer version wasn’t released on video or DVD but it doesn’t feel the same watching the cut version.
Ah thanks, I see - the opening credits aren't played over the goofy slapstick sequence.
I don't think I've seen the Donner cut once. I always loved Richard Pryor in the third one too.
I think you'd enjoy the Donner Cut just to see the alternate versions of the scenes. A lot of it is better, some of it is just different. But it's not really a complete movie, so keep that in mind going in.
I am literally astounded that you have not seen superman 3. You will probably see the shorter version with cut scenes.
42:29 I always wondered why Lois just stood by while superman decides to give up his powers. Why not intervene?
Also 19:56 I’m no physicist, but I think maybe the kryptonians are so heavy that with the low gravity of the moon they would walk pretty normally unaffected? We see in Supergirl that the guy can’t even pick her up, and Superman weighs 225 as revealed in 1.
Good point about Lois in that scene, I think maybe she was just speechless at what she was witnessing. She does reveal later that she’s basically just stunned that he gave up his powers for her.
Also good point about their weight! While we’re talking about this scene, I wonder has anyone come up with an explanation as to how they can speak in a vacuum…
@ Haha. There is no explanation for that one. But it happens again briefly in 4 as you’ll see. I’m still flabbergasted you haven’t seen the last 2. Like wow 😵💫
I enjoyed this vid, many good points that I had thought of but never heard discussed before. 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼(stayed up til 3am to watch)
Thanks so much! It’s Brendan that hasn’t seen III or IV yet, and yeah I was surprised to learn that myself. I haven’t seen Superman IV since it was in theaters, but it’s also been many many years since I’ve watched Superman III all the way through. I watched it on cable TV dozens of times when I was a teenager.
@@prodigioussaps It always bothered me that Lois seems so nonchalant about Superman denouncing his Kryptonian heritage, too - not even a step forward and cry "no!"
Wouldn't they be lighter on the moon ..just as we are? now I am confused.
It's seems an accepted convention in Superman that Kryptonians can speak in a vacuum. I've seen it in recent iterations also. Superman and Lois in the second season. Superman speaks to his brother, Tal-Rho when they reach the sun. Lois and Clark, he speaks to his clone in space. They shouldn't be able to breathe in a vacuum, either. (Lois and Clark mentions he has to hold his breath but then totally forgets in in other episodes.) Superman has never been a hard-science fiction story - it's like the pulp fiction of the 1920s and 30s or even earlier - science-fantasy?
Guys you got to watch 3 and 4. You can handle it.
Oh we are! Superman III episode is already recorded and I'm working on the edit. Coming in few days. IV will be in a couple weeks, probably. Cheers 👊
Prefer the cinematic version
There are fans of MOS who insist that Superman already tried a couple of times to move the battle away from people and Zod refused.
What do you think?
@@prodigioussaps I don't know. I really liked the movie, but I have problems with some aspects of it. I like the portrayal of Krypton as being like if the USSR had managed genetic engineering-- cheating everyone out of freedom even as they're created.
Given how Snyder describes the story in interviews, maybe Superman didn't even care about directing Zod away.
But I've seen videos where, meticulously, with video, Superman is shown 1) not allowing anyone to die 2) attempting to get Zod away from populous areas.
I would like to think those are true.
But after that, BVS came out, and showed that hundreds, or thousands, of people died.
I get where you're coming from? Even though Lester's was not bad? Except for the scenes with the terrorist's? Donners version was better. In my opinion.
Yeah, frankly the more I dig into this the more sympathy I have for Lester. He wasn't the right man for the job (only Donner was, frankly), but Superman II could have been so much worse if Lester hadn't been there.
I can go with the multiple Superman’s in the fortress as I just see it as some tech that Jor El made in the fortress. After all he can project himself as a hologram so why couldn’t Kal be able to utilise similar technology?
I definitely prefer the Theatrical cut over the Donner Cut but really there’s a great version of Superman II if they combined elements of both as I feel the Brando scenes would elevate the film.
Lastly the kiss, it’s silly but it does bizarrely have comic origins.
Sorry reacting as I’m watching
The artic police scene is deleted therefore isn’t canon. It’s not in either cut, the Donner Cut features it as a deleted scene on the disc but not as part of the movie. The only version it exists in is the Restored International Cut.
I don’t really see an issue with the way Zack Snyder did things. It’s just a different approach, his is how would this go down in the real world? And buildings would certainly get absolutely demolished. I can understand if it’s not for you but it’s a perfectly valid interpretation and shouldn’t be mocked for doing it differently imo.
Also the kiss from Man of Steel always gets brought up but again I don’t see an issue with it. They’ve just been through hell together and it’s a moment of relief for them. It’s much worse in Aquaman when Arthur kisses Mera amongst all the killing happening right as they’re locking lips. Yet nobody ever brings that up.
Yeah, to be clear I personally don't WANT the Arctic Patrol scene to be canon, because the idea that the Fortress is easily accessible to anyone other than Superman is very silly.
However I don't consider Zod's death to be canon, BUT at the same time I also don't consider his survival to be canon... because we don't really see either result. It's kinda like Schrödinger's Zod. I prefer the latter because that's how it was scripted, but ultimately nobody's wrong or right on that score, IMO.
Sorry if our MoS takes offend you... we're just being honest! If we think something's stupid or bad we're not going to pull punches. We poke an almost equal amount of jabs at movies we love, as well. Keep in mind nothing we say is ever meant to be a reflection on your tastes or your fandom.
@ Schrödingers Zod I like that 😂
I don’t have issues with people disliking stuff I like. Or poking fun at, heck I poke fun at stuff I like. It’s when the validity of it something isn’t accepted that I take issue. Not that you were doing that.
Cheers Bob, glad to have you here 👊
I think i'd have preferred a combined version with elements from both movies, Donner didn't really get to shot his own full version so we could never get what he intended. So a combination of the movies would be the better option, as a kid I obviously only saw the Lester and loved it and didn't really notice all the stuff we see later on...
As for the fortress fight, as a kid, i always felt that when he went back, and "programed" some holographic simulations cause he knew that he'd some some kind of "defense" or distraction against 3 who are equal in power to him. So that Cellophane would be a distraction to confuse them, which is what you basically see on Non's face after it supposedly attached him. It would also make the whole disappearing and reappearing scene better, cause Super Speed doesn't seem to fit in this, but Holograms and Trickery would work much better.
Lastly, the whole de-powering the villains and crashing them, the logic I see here is that when Superman lost his powers, he was in a concentrated small area and he wasn't sure how it would affect them as they may get less exposure in a wide area, therefor you don't have a similar losing scene like he had, as they would probably notice/feel that they lost their powers. At the same time, he behaved weak and tested if they have lost their powers to avoid suspicion....
Note: In Israel we got the "international Cut" of the movie, where we actually had the scenes where the police takes the criminals away, so for *me* that's the official canon version which shows he clearly didn't kill anyone. But I find it funny of Snyder Cultist will vouch for the "Snyder Cut" and call it official to make any excuse, but ignore the "Donner Cut" when comparing Superman killing Zod in the two versions... and during the battle, as you mentioned, Superman looks and tries to save people and Zod said "he actually cares" but in Snyder, he made Superman into such an uncaring alien that he only saves cause he happens to be around but not cause he wants to, but he wants to be liked... so suddenly caring about that family that he kills Zod for, doesn't feel justified...
Great points all around, especially that last one about testing to see if they’d lost their powers. That actually never occurred to me. Thank you!
Replying again for your addition about the international cut. Man that’s wild, thank you, I never knew much about that version. I need to see if I can find a copy of that.
Nail on the head about MoS, couldn’t have said it better myself..
@@prodigioussaps I believe that version of the movie was on Television in the US and some of the extra scenes were restored, although not sure if it was with agreement with Donner/Lester but it makes far more sense...
@@prodigioussaps I thought it would be logical, you can see the confused look on Lois's face when she sees him coming out, you didn't have the "explosions" like when he was depowered and they weren't in pain. It would seem that they just momentarily lost their powers due to the exposure to red sun radiation, while he was "genetically" altered (as we saw in that whole scene) and felt more painful for him while they didn't seem to notice...
Lots of laughter watching this. Thanks. I only saw III and IV this year. I really didn't want to watch them but bought a boxed collection. I resisted for quite a while.. I'm hate feeling embarrassed for a Character I like as much as Superman. ( same as Mr. Brendan does.) I skip the evil Superman scenes... but there are some good moments with the huge computer. Definitely shows some of the paranoia of the 1980s (1983) concerning the future of computers and their effect on society - there is a funny scene with a superman game using the graphics of that time. Computer nerds talked a lot about the future back then. Richard Pryor dates the story and some of his humor falls flat, but I've known computer programmers and being a smart programmer doesn't mean you have common sense. The Fourth movie isn't all that bad, either. It is a period piece, but no one who grew up in the cold war can be totally repelled by the themes and message. I think Christopher Reeve contributed to the writing of it. It is very touching when Superman says that he wishes humanity could see Earth the he does and admits (at the end of the movie) that humanity has to make the decision to live or die, not him. He was wrong to try to intervene. The fight scenes between him and Nuclear Man aren't all bad, either. Although, the flying statue of liberty is cracks me up, every time. Very few buildings collapsed during the making of that movie, at least and Superman tried to protect humans.
I really thought he killed them. It was the only assumption I could make... Superman isn't supposed to kill but there might be times he does it accidentally or out of necessity. I knew of the scene with the police but i thought it was completely discarded. The two versions reminds me of a crazy quilt. Lots of bits and pieces but no one coherent pattern. I wish they had done more house-keeping.
Am I the only one who screams at the screen.. "Hey, people go home! Don't stand around while super beings are fighting!" "Stupid New Yorkers!"
I prefer the way the Superman and Lois relationship was handled in latter iterations of the story. In Lois and Clark they do marry but he can not father children of a earth woman. In Superman and Lois, they do have children but their lives aren't easy. There is no reason Superman couldn't marry, except it would distract him and, also, Jor-El's demands. He shouldn't have to live the life a Templar knight, it's just going to be a very great challenge to be Clark, Superman and father and husband.. His life should be his own, and he'd have to decide what was best.
The Superman myth is definitely being effected by the myths of Super humans and demi-gods. No doubt.
I was confused about the blanks too. I had to look it up. Blank Cartridges: a primer, some sort of propellant and makes a loud sound, also, can be dangerous, gives some recoil but there is no projectile (bullet). If Lois fired a blank there would be a bit of fire out of the Muzzle and a bang but no bullet.
Yay! A video's never really published until Kathleen chimes in. 👊
Yeah, we'll get into this with the next breakdown video, but the thing with Richard Pryor is so frustrating. The guy was so talented and absolutely loved Superman, but they didn't write his character very well. Him being a untapped computer genius wasn't an altogether bad idea, but the way they portray his genius as "I don't know, I just did it" is missing the mark by mile. He should have been saying things like "Well, it's obvious, isn't it? You call this subroutine here to run this bla bla" or whatever to show that he's intuitively figured out how it works. Instead they make it seem like he's just typing random crap into the computer.
But that was pretty typical of how Hollywood handled computer stuff back then. One exception I think was WarGames -- even that was dumbed down considerably, but Matthew Broderick and his hacker friends felt more like real-life computer guys to me.
@@prodigioussaps I'm here. Having too much fun not to comment. They didn't write great scripts for the Superman movies, for the most part. None of the Superman movies were as good as they could have been. Even the first one. I wish they had written a far more dangerous Lex Luthor. Less slap-stick. I wish they had done more. Star Trek & Star Wars should have put everyone on notice that science fiction should be respected. I think the problem was they considered comic book movies, kid's fare, not serious movie making. They didn't take the scripts - and their jobs - seriously? Billion dollar Comic book movies were decades in the future. The computer age was in its infancy. There was little to no CGI. (?)
I would suggest that Hollywood really didn't know how to write computer programmers in 1983. They hadn't met many and the ones that they had met they didn't understand. (my theory) Computer programmers are like magicians. Even if they explain to you how they made a computer do some job- thingie, you aren't going to understand them unless you are a computer programmer, yourself. You are right about "I don't know, I just did it" comments being ridiculous, I agree, and "it's obvious' would be much better a way to explain his insights. (obvious to whom?) Love Richard Pryor. Again, the writing. Again, they didn't know programmers.
But I've been there with a computer --- I just "did it" Not a clue how. I always document my successes - or try to. I found the right procedures without know what the heck I was doing. Pure dumb luck. Or, pure desperation. Computers are very strange beasts and dealing with them is always an adventure.
It is also ridiculous that anyone could build a super computer in 1983. It was the memory dilemma (both RAM and ROM) , and - we were still using real 'floppies' back then. 5 inch floppies to be exact. The exponential increases in memory storage and volatile memory were still in the future. It really was 'the coming thing'. ;-) I might check out War Games. I don't remember it, but it sounds familiar. I've always thought the movie "Colossus" was good for it's time.
Christopher Reeve brought these films to life. The transition from Clark Kent to Superman in the Niagara hotel is truly awesome.
My question is why would Lex Luthor (a genius) even approach THREE Kryptonian villains without a kryptonite stash or ring? For a master mind he wasn’t very prepared.
@@KC-fi6rk Maybe he had to take a chance because Lex didn't know where any other Kryptonite was at.
True. The piece of Kryptonite he had was the only known one up to that point.
Hm. A couple people around my age, give or take, with reasonable opinions that often differ from mine but are based in a love for or appreciation of these characters?
I may have found my home.
Let’s get the party started. 0:08
Cheers man! Dig all your comments, I'm glad you found us 👊
Everything you're complaining about is due to the fact these films were doing things that had never been done before and trying to hit the mass market
Yeaahhh no question, but I maintain some of it was also due to poor choices that could have been avoided.
I was not fond of the theatrical release. It was too silly. But the Donner Cut won me over.
Superman doesn't turn back time and it's not because he feels sorry for her?!. He goes back in time to a point before she died and entered back into the time line at that point and goes to make sure she was ok.
Yeah I was referring to his turning back time in the Donner Cut of Superman II. Sounds like you’re talking about the first movie?
In the Donner Cut, Clark doesn’t go confront the bully for petty revenge. He was at the diner to get the food Lois asked for in the previous scene. The bully just happened to be there. Clark knowing Rocky’s true nature, he knew that he’d be the one to throw the first punch…
Interesting, but why would he fly all the way to Alaska for pizza?
@ Because he’s Superman, haha! The dude picked up exotic flowers from the tropics… (yeah, I know that’s the Lester cut, but a trip to Alaska for Superman is like a walk down the street for us)
Ha, okay. I think you’re being nice to him, but it seems pretty clear he knew that guy would be there. Also he was prepared with a wad of cash to cover damages and leaves without ordering anything. But if that works for you cool man!!
I think it's another example, just like "interfering with human history", of Superman choosing his human side. It may not be quite as noble as most of his other acts, but it is understandable given the sense of humiliation he might have felt.
Watch Superman III but you will have nightmares.
Oh we did. Review coming out soon, nightmares and all. Cheers 👊
@ can’t wait
Here? When?
When? Where the hell have you been mac? On a desert island 🏝?
LOVE that moment!
Perhaps he knew they can hear. lol I’m trying lol
That would make sense! The Donner Cut actually does kind of make it look like Zod hears him.
Would love a remake of Superman 2 zod ursa nun
I like both! Donner and Lester. Did Donner direct the Souffle scene??
I think so, yeah. It's in Mankiewicz's script. That scene doesn't appear in either of these versions we watched, though.
@@buddymckane1179 mankewicz wrote it, but it was directed by Lester and re-tooled from what it was supposed to be. Donner even complains about how it was directed in the Donner Cut commentary.
I see. Thank you. Oh and one more thing, I refer to the cellophane S as a Superang, you know like Batman's Baterangs.
Ah okay thanks Josh