FYI ! !,,,Yes...there is large and small primered 45ACP. Here is a quick tool.... in doubt... After depriming...grab your 3/16 flat tip punch. If it fits in the primer opening...LARGE PRIMER...if NOT...SMALL PRIMER. I found this out when I got brass from a Police Qualification at which I usually get the brass. I load BOTH and to be honest..if the brass is clean and use of a primer hole cleaner/sizer (inside)... they all go bang and and perform as they should.
Who would try to put something that is wrong/too large when it won't even start in the primer pocket/hole? This was not meant to be a euphemism... I tried to pick my words as clearly as possible to avoid that.
I only reload small pistol primer brass, if I mess up and slip a large case In there the worse I’ll get is powder everywhere, if I go the other way, BOOM
@@jjm5714 - I think the problem occurs if your loading on a progressive press. I bet the priming system on a Dillon press would just about seat a large primer in a small pocket if you weren’t paying attention or hadn’t learned the feel of your equipment. I know it will punch a primer through a military crimp if you push hard enough. I reference my early comment about not knowing your equipment very well. It may also pop a primer in the process. Experience is a wonderful teacher. There’s an old saying… Experience is what you get when things don’t go as you’ve planned. True words…..
Thanks papa! I just stumbled upon this video while I was right in the middle of getting ready to prep for 45 ACP, sure appreciate pointing out those details that's what I love about reloading attention to safety!
Another thing worth mentioning is the evidence of "early unlocking" of the pistol(s) that shot those casings. Improper timing, the slide is moving rearward before the firring pin has retracted back into it's channel. Many people brush it off as no big deal, but those people are wrong.
That’s mostly from Glock firing pins but ya it’s common anyway big heavy hammers holding the pin forwards. Glocks do it like mad and they don’t have fully supported chambers!!
I agree and disagree. I agree with from the standpoint of why re-invent the wheel?!?! I found a deal to go to pass up on primed 45 small primer brass so now I have a ton of it. I like the idea of not having to switch over the priming assembly from small to large when I want to go from loading 9mm to 45. But largely, I agree why re-invent the wheel. Now I have to sort my own 45 brass!!!
Factories use the components they determine best meet THEIR production needs. They have the means to pressure test each batch and can use propellants and primers that you cannot access. They are not concerned about the needs of handloaders per se. Producing lead free ammunition requires a lead free primer. The demand for "lead free" ammo is not great, so why should they bear the cost of a full range of primer sizes for a very small percentage of their production? Since they can do their own pressure testing, the primers they use are not "pistol primers" but are simply small primers used in both rifle and handgun lead free ammo. This is not the first .45 ACP ammo to be loaded with small primers. Nor is it the first cartridge to be loaded with two primer sizes. The .357 Magnum was once loaded with large primers, the .45 ACP was originally loaded with small primers (it was a pretty "high pressure" cartridge when it was developed in 1905 and Browning hedged his bets with a small primer to reduce pressure on the breech face). Small primers have a smaller surface area for the pressure to act upon. The primer and primer pocket are the "weak link" in the case. The .308 (in a case called the ".308 BR") and 6.5 Creedmore have been loaded with both large and small primers, as precision shooters have favored small primers for consistency in some cases, and many others also.
Thanks for this video. I'm just starting. I picked up brass today and there is some federal small and some other large. Glad I came across your video.. . . thanks
I ran across this today, and also with Federal cases that I've picked up at the range. I use a Lee primer pocket after each depriming on my single stage press. This is a very easy way to immediately tell what I have, and of course, I separate them. Thanks for the video!
I just got a batch of 500 once fired .45 ACP brass here in Jan 2021. While prepping the cases, found that the wire brush for cleaning large primer pockets wouldn't go in some of the cases. Looking carefully, I saw some of the .45 brass had small primer pockets. I was surprised. I had never heard of .45 ACP using small primers. I went through the bag and separated out the small primer cases. I can still reload them using small primers.
Actually back in the olden days Frankford arsenal had an odd sized and smaller primer for the government 45 ACP ammo that was much harder to see than the obviously small small pistol primer. They were also mecuric primers which attacked the brass if you got one of those in your star reloader it would jam the primer feed and the shell plate as the rim would get ripped off the case due to the weakened brass. Ok so I'm super old.
Great video! Small primer 45 ACP cases are a pain if not sorted. I’ve started hand priming a lot of my cartridges due to my entry level progressive press being finicky when priming. I’ve had that press probably 30 years and use it for small quantity runs. I have a Dillon that I leave set up for high volume runs. Anyway, when hand priming you can detect a problem with the priming process 99.9% of the time. If it’s the wrong size primer, military crimp, even even loose primer pockets can be detected by the feel/resistance felt while seating the primer. So I use the hand priming process to sort my small pocket brass. Note: my entry level progressive press is a wonderful press. The priming system can be tinkered with and the addition of partially disassembled sizing die over the priming station improves reliability considerably. However, hand priming has all the benefits previously described and removes the frustration of priming malfunctions.
I’ve also run into this loading 38 Special. I bought some brass from an old-timer and there was some 38-44 mixed in. Dimensionally and functionally it’s the same, but the 38-44 uses large primers whereas 38 Special uses small primers.
Correct. Both .38 Special (.38-44 IS the .38 Special with a heavy load, sort of a 1930s-1960s "+P") and .357 Magnum have been loaded with large pistol primers in the past.
Thank you SO much! I previously thought the small primed cases were only the aluminum ones. I have a lot of brass to check....just getting started in reloading.
I buy bulk once fired, and i sort them by head stamp so i just keep adding to the bags and when they're 1000 plus in the bag I'll use that bag to load with so they'll all be the same head stamp. I set all the small pistol aside. I don't load it because i have over 17k large pistol primers that i got when they were still cheap so i keep the small primers i have for things that don't have another option.
...yeah it IT IS a pain in the balzonies...now I gotta sort them after I tumble them;..I've got a 'sufficient' supply of older brass so right now it's not a big concern for me...I've had the same situation of smaller cases getting stuck inside another larger case but when I sort them in the squirrel cage most of them come apart...
I’ve reloaded a lot of 45 ACP’s that had small primer pockets. Yes, they were all Federals. They made great Ammo, no problem, but I was careful to prime them accordingly.
I have run into this as well and really can't understand the logic behind it. I have also noted that newer Federal and Blazer brass will not size correctly. This has occurred in not only .45ACP, but 9mm as well. It is my belief that the walls in these types of brass is not nearly as thick as before. It slows me down, but I have come to watch the headstamps on brass and in the cases as above, I throw them out, as well as the small primed .45's
I just found a bunch of blazer small primer brass myself. I use a hand primer so unless you are stupid you can find the problem quick without much danger. But this was a worthwhile video nevertheless.
I ordered a couple thousand casings and they were mixed large and small. My 5 year old daughter likes helping and even she has gotten good at sorting them lol
Be careful! It really gums up the works (at best) if you get a small primer pocket case in your batch of large primer cases! The best way I found to segregate them, is to use a LARGE primer pocket cleaning tool and stick it into every primer pocket. Better to find out when your primer pocket cleaning tool doesn't fit.
I agree it's no big deal.. if you even know that there is small primer brass out there that you need to separate... but at the time this video was done there was very little if any information out there... that is why I did the video. Federal isn't the only one that is using small primer 45acp cases. There is a pinned comment on using a 3/16 punch to verify which pocket is which quickly and easily for those that have a tough time telling the difference.
Good video, good PSA, so to speak. Thank you. ALWAYS inspect ALL your cases before loading. ALWAYS follow loading manual data to the "T". DO NOT substitute cases with small primers in loads designated for "large pistol" primers or vice versa. In general, I do not use "range brass" UNLESS I happen to see a fellow shooter using factory ammo and they offer me their KNOWN TO BE "once fired" brass (which happens often enough) Picking up unknown brass is not a good idea. Better to start with NEW or once fired cases so you KNOW the "history" of the cases. FWIW the .45 ACP is not the only cartridge that has been loaded with both large and small primers. The .308 WCF and 6.5 Creedmore have been produced with both size primer pockets, among others. ALWAYS be sure of what you are loading and follow manual instructions.
The problem is that back when this video was uploaded most 45 ACP loaders didn't have a clue that small primer 45acp cases even existed. The small primer cases work just as well as the large primer cases. The problem arose because people that didn't know tried seating large primers into small primer pockets... and that ain't good. Now days most people know this... but not all... so I have left the video up to help those that didn't know.
I have to agree with you there, while others were freaking out and tossing the SPP 45 ACP brass I was gathering it up and filled a 3-gallon bucket eventually. @@papasplace2
AS if the primer cup issue wasn't enuff. If you are loading for a single action revolver cylinder - esp Ruger, make sure your bullets are sized to .451. I gave up on my blackhawk cylinder for about 20 years because I didn't know this. Works great now... and the accuracy is fab!
Thanks for the heads up. 45 ACP has always been large pistol primers from its inception. This small pistol primer use is something recent. Of course, when using range brass, we are supposed to inspect each case and sort them, but you have pointed out one more thing to check. And an important check because old timers like me, who have "known" for 40 years that 45 ACP is large pistol primers, might not look at the size of the primer.!!!
That's the reason I decided to put up the video. I have been reloading for over 40 years... the one thing that i have seen is that are always going to be changes in the way we do things... sometimes for the better sometimes not. It's all in the details. Thanks for taking the time to comment Take care
Actually large lémures were added to the 45 ACP during a war time shortage when the US Army was transitioning from the 45 Colt to the 45 ACP (Sotheby’s story goes but please fact check as this is only a story😆), The end result is what we see today; I currently reload both small and large primers for the 45 ACP with no ill effects on function or accuracy. Hope this helps.
I told my buddy that I didn’t want to shoot his .40 cal because the brass is so close to the same size as the 45 cases I didn’t want to have to sort them out. But now that I have to sort them anyway we should have just shot the 40.
Hey, how about that firing pin drag?? Been reloading alum and steel empties. Good plinkers. Also should note brass thickness varies, +P, IMI, etc. for the barrel ramp relief. Brass rim diameters and rim thickness vary significantly, as well as extractor grooves. All vary a lot from brand to brand, batch to batch. Consistent precision reloading requires painstaking measuring and sorting. Plinking... not so much. Many wonder why some brass extracts and throws that way, some that way, etc. It is the brass dimensions. Tuning 1911 extractors to "do it all" is not understood by most shooters. Thanks for a good video.
This was all range pickup brass in the video... It was this batch that I discovered the small primer brass. My old stash is all large primer and is getting up in age.
Interesting trivia about government primers in .45 acp. According to Henry Stebbins book "Pistols, a Modern Encyclopedia", page 265, Frankford Arsenal loaded a .204 diameter primer as opposed to the .210 LG and .175 sm.. A friend who had loaded surplus cases since WW 2 only discovered this when he tried primeing with a Lee tool, his bench mounted Star loader compressed them in place without problems or noticeable difficulty.
Good video. For the newbies don’t ever ram in a primer regardless of size. You will learn to feel it after a while. It’s a learning curve thing. Second they have baskets that separate brass. They work really well
When I tumble different size cases together, I add the larger ones and tumble for a few minutes. Then I add smaller brass. This gives the larger one time to fill up with media before I add the smaller brass. JMHO
I learned my lesson a very long time ago... buy cheap and stack 'em deep. I will never get caught short again. I have what I need for now. Those who didn't stock up or are new to reloading are scrambling right now. I helped a couple of close friends out but have reached the "Sorry I can't help you out" zone for now. Over my reloading career of 46 years I have seen lots of crazy things... but have learned from each of them. I pray that things will get closer to normal again soon... but I don't think that things will get any better for a long time.
Ya, “GIFS GOOT FEELINGK”! For such an old video, the quality of it looks pretty good! Nice & sharp & very good lighting! BUT you said nothing about all that “FIRING PIN DRAG” on the primers, most all anyway! Something seems “amiss” here!! I assume the primer ignition holes to the powder are the same diameter for both small & large primers. Thanks! “Gesundheit”!!!
That was all range pick up brass that I had picked up. If it had been from one of my guns I would have said something about it. The video was just about "discovering" something I had never seen before and a warning to everyone that the small primer 45acp cases were out there and to be careful when picking up brass that wasn't yours. Having a primer discharge on you when your seating them is NEVER a good time. As far as I know the the holes are the same for both. The loads for reloading both are the same.
I kinda wish i had more SPP 45 brass since i have thousands of SPP and only a couple hundred LPP but i could obviously just get more small primer brass but i have so much large pistol brass already! Can always use more primers i guess especially before the election! LPP here i come
The only thing that was ever wrong about small primer 45acp brass was when not many new they existed and there were more then a few primers that scared the heck out of people. Back when I made this video it was just to let people know that there were small primer 45acp brass out there and to make sure they double checked any range brass they picked up. Nothing wrong with small primer 45acp brass... like you I wish I had more of it right now because small primers are more available and cost less then then large primers these day.
I seen a video that a guy loaded 20 rounds, 10 with SPP amd 10 with LPP and on averaged the SPP were a little bit higher velocity. I know even in rifle brass Lapua makes 6.5 creedmor in SPP. As long as you identify what ones ypu have I dont see the big deal.
The problem is that since day the 45acp used large pistol primers and you could pickup any 45acp brass and get busy reloading them. Now they are starting to throw some small primer cases... you just have to be careful and make sure you separate the 2 sizes of primer pockets. They both work well.
So I run across some Blazer today while hand priming .45 ACP with a Lee auto prime. I figure, hmmm... won't go in, I didn't think Blazer crimped it's primer pockets? I get get out my primer pocket swaging die. Still no go... Then I triple check and discover it's got a small pistol primer. Been loading .45 ACP for years, never checked primer size. I'm thankful I was hand priming, or the the added pressure of the Rock Chucker could have set it off.
The blazer cases I have are all old... large primer brass cases. I have enough brass saved from over the years that I won't need to add any more. If I was picking up range brass I would make double checks to make sure that the small primer cases get separated from the large primer cases.
Yep, been there done that. Kurt S left a comment below and I found it to be invaluable! use a 3/16 inch flat tip pinch... if it fits in the primer pocket opening it is a large primer pocket.... if it doesn't it is a small primer pocket... much more positive way to separate out small and large primer pockets then just looking!
The whole reason I do the videos that I do is for the new people. There are so many little things that you watch for and do when you reload...sometimes you just take them for granted. If you don't catch or do the step it really can be a mess to get it fixed not to mention that it could be dangerous too. Thanks for taking the time to comment Take care
They certainly do...I just found some in my range brass! Just get a set of .45 ACP dies and was going to start reloading next weekend...I will definitely be sorting out the brass and tossing the ones with small primer pockets!
I have never tried to reload small primer 45acp. I trash all the small primer stuff I find. That being said, I have read that there is no difference in the loads between small and large primers. I would strongly suggest doing a lot more research on the subject.
Always wear safety glasses when priming cartridges and do not have any other primers or powder in the vicinity. Progressive presses have safety systems built in to separate primers and powder, but always wear safety glasses when loading ammunition.
Yeah, I've picked those up off the range. I expect them every now and then. I'm not going to sort them. I can tell when I have them because they don't seat obviously. But on the dillon, it's apparent right away....not a lot of power on the upstroke priming part. Never had an explosion or chain reaction series of events. I'm not saying a pop can't happen...just I've never had one. I'm not worried about it. It's a nuisance more than a danger. I understand I will not have a leg to stand on when the safety card is thrown out in an argument. I get it.
Yep. I quit picking up 45acp range brass shortly after this showed it's ugly head. I have more brass then I will ever really need anyways... it's just that being a cheap a$$ reloader it's really hard for me not to pick it up when I see it! LOL
Good Lord people. Small primers in 45ACP started showing up on the range floor in the mid to late 90s. I know this because I started reloading in 92/93 and people were bitching about it and giving me the small primer ACP brass.
I've been reloading since 1970. Never ran across or even heard anyone ever talk about small primer 45acp brass until I ran across these in some range brass I was given. I figured I would share the knowledge with those interested. You may have known about them and the people that gave you the small primer brass knew... but not everyone else knew they even existed. Thus this terrible video.
It's funny (strange, not haha) this video should appear in my YT feed. I'm just getting into reloading, 45 acp is where I'm starting, and...I didn't search for this...but I was just wondering to myself if there ever were small primer 45 acp...The YT algorithm is scary.
Yes it is... Glad you watched and learned something... but when stuff like that happens to me I really don't like it... it's like someone is watching over my shoulder....drives me nuts! LOL
@@papasplace2 Hey I have a question maybe you could answer or direct me to a resource. Because I'm probably not using the correct internet search terms. I have a couple of different reloading manuals. Hodgdon 2022 Annual and a Lyman 50th Edition. I'm not able to find, locally, any of the powders listed in the manuals for 230gr FMJ/TMJ. If I buy pistol rated powder from a local store, what should I use as a starting point for the amount of charge? Is there another resource out there, like an online calculator, that if I enter in some specifics, it can give an idea of what the pressures would be and velocities of the projectiles? I can't be the first to have run into this.
@@ericinMN1970 Try this site... www.hodgdonreloading.com/ . Click on pistol...then select your cartidge/bullet weight and you will see all kinds of info on starting loads and max loads. Great information. Almost every powder company has a site that will list what each powder is good for cartridge wise with load data. Now finding powders on the shelf during this crazy times is not easy... some powders are useful in several calibers( more flexible usage) then others.
@@papasplace2 Thank you! I will check that link out. It really threw me when I'm looking in my manuals, see half dozen plus powder options per bullet, and so far not finding any of them available to me locally. I could order online but I live in the city and anything left at my door is very likely to get removed.
Back when this video was made the small primer 45acp had just started to appear. Prior to that time 45acp brass was only large primer... therefore it wasn't necessary to check the size of the primers. I made the video to make people aware that there were small primer 45acp cases out there and to make sure that they started to check any range brass that they picked up or bought.
When I originally posted this 10 years ago I did it just to give people a heads up on the existence of small primer 45acp cases... up until then it was 100% large primers. There isn't anything wrong with small primers... so long as you know to keep an eye out for them. They work just fine. The problem arises when you aren't expecting them and try to set a large primer into a small primer case... bad ju ju!
I am as old school as they come... but there is an upside to having a small primer 45acp case... at least you can get primers to reload them for less the $70 a brick! The last large pistol primers I saw were still over $100 a brick.. I am never going to pay that kind of money! The small primers shoot fine in the 45acp... just have to rework your loads. Not to mention keeping them separate from your large primer cases.
I have been shooting 45acp for over 40 years with large primers and have never had any problems with powder ignition... not saying it is impossible, just that I have never had an issue. I quit picking up 45acp range brass shortly after making this video because I have no need for the small primers and the danger they represent if missed while inspecting the brass.
@dualspectrumreality ytilaermurtcepslaud Yes, I have more then enough 45 acp to last me and I see more and more small primer brass every time I go to public range. The chance of trying to insert a large primer is a small primer case is just too great for me to risk. One is all it takes to ruin a good day.
I actually did the same. Trying to separate the brass is just a pain in the butt. Given that large primer pockets are more ubiquitous in .45 auto, that's what I pretty much stick to. That and pretty much all the other pistol calibers i load for are large primers as well.
If you look at the video at about 1:13 you can see the small primers on the left and the large primers on the right. It is easy to see the difference between the 2 sizes. I believe that your going to pick up more large size( more common) then you will the newer small primers. Take the time to look at each case to make sure what you have. Trying to seat a large primer into a small primer pocket is no fun at all!
@@roberthill7872 : Yes the holes on the small primer is smaller and easy to see if you have both. Of not look up the primer diameters and measure one. Once size is determined, put one aside for later comparison. What a pain...
ALWAYS use the casing and primer specified by the loading manual. Substituting components will cause variances in results, which may result in bad things.
Old fart here been reloading over 40 years . My two cents everyone at first is at least semi attentive as we gain experience we become complacent. Loading ammunition ya gotta pay attention. Relax enjoy your hobby I own a fine blue progressive press still resize/deprime with my old Rockchucker if it sizes too easy the brass is worn out this is just one of my habits some of my brass has been shot allot did I mention I'm old
Either primer will work well... the problem came up a few years ago because everyone was used to dealing with large pistol primers for the 45acp... it had been that way for decades. Several people didn't catch the newer small primers when reloading range brass and had several detonations which can be very dangerous not to mention scary as hell! This video was pit up just to make people aware that there are both variations out there and to make sure that they do a very good inspection on what they have!
Oh, They are out there...the problem is that people panicked and started buying up everything in sight. Primers are showing up at places like Midway, Brownells and Powder Valley semi regularly. The prices the stores are selling them for has actually dropped some from the crazy prices in the beginning.
I quit picking up range brass 45acp because of this. I figured I had plenty and I really didn't want the headache pf going through and separating them out. The small primer brass reloads and shoots fine... I just prefer the large primers.
This was all range brass pick up... a practice I have since given up because of the small primer issue. I have more then enough brass for my use and will let others deal with separating the brass.
Why? The T shaped indent is from a striker. Like a Glock, Sig P320, Springfield XD series. They've only been like that oh, 35 years or so. Maybe someone should brush up on their firearms knowledge.
Yep But back when this video was made very few even knew that they were making small primer pocket 45acp cases... so no one knew to even look and check.
Yep leave it to federal to mess it all up. I believe they are the only company doing small primers but could be wrong. I just sort all my brass and only load the large primer .45
Speer is also doing the small lead free primers. I have 99.8% large primer brass... if I ever get enough of the small I will either load it or sell it. Thanks for taking the time to stop by. Take care
FYI ! !,,,Yes...there is large and small primered 45ACP. Here is a quick tool.... in doubt...
After depriming...grab your 3/16 flat tip punch. If it fits in the primer opening...LARGE PRIMER...if NOT...SMALL PRIMER.
I found this out when I got brass from a Police Qualification at which I usually get the brass. I load BOTH and to be honest..if the brass is clean and use of a primer hole cleaner/sizer (inside)... they all go bang and and perform as they should.
Great tip!
Thanks
Who would try to put something that is wrong/too large when it won't even start in the primer pocket/hole? This was not meant to be a euphemism... I tried to pick my words as clearly as possible to avoid that.
I only reload small pistol primer brass, if I mess up and slip a large case In there the worse I’ll get is powder everywhere, if I go the other way, BOOM
@@jjm5714 - I think the problem occurs if your loading on a progressive press. I bet the priming system on a Dillon press would just about seat a large primer in a small pocket if you weren’t paying attention or hadn’t learned the feel of your equipment. I know it will punch a primer through a military crimp if you push hard enough. I reference my early comment about not knowing your equipment very well. It may also pop a primer in the process. Experience is a wonderful teacher. There’s an old saying… Experience is what you get when things don’t go as you’ve planned. True words…..
I use cci small rifle primers in those small pocket .45 auto cases for my super hot handloads. I never have to worry about a pierced primer.
Thanks papa!
I just stumbled upon this video while I was right in the middle of getting ready to prep for 45 ACP, sure appreciate pointing out those details that's what I love about reloading attention to safety!
Thanks!
Another thing worth mentioning is the evidence of "early unlocking" of the pistol(s) that shot those casings. Improper timing, the slide is moving rearward before the firring pin has retracted back into it's channel. Many people brush it off as no big deal, but those people are wrong.
That’s mostly from Glock firing pins but ya it’s common anyway big heavy hammers holding the pin forwards. Glocks do it like mad and they don’t have fully supported chambers!!
I was wondering what caused that.
moral to the story, kids. always look at what you are doing.
Who ever thought to use a small primer in a 45 acp should get kicked in the balls lol
My thoughts exactly! lol
What a PITA!
John Browning designed 45acp to use a small primer.
I agree and disagree. I agree with from the standpoint of why re-invent the wheel?!?! I found a deal to go to pass up on primed 45 small primer brass so now I have a ton of it. I like the idea of not having to switch over the priming assembly from small to large when I want to go from loading 9mm to 45. But largely, I agree why re-invent the wheel. Now I have to sort my own 45 brass!!!
Josue Guzman ... originally they were small
Factories use the components they determine best meet THEIR production needs. They have the means to pressure test each batch and can use propellants and primers that you cannot access. They are not concerned about the needs of handloaders per se.
Producing lead free ammunition requires a lead free primer. The demand for "lead free" ammo is not great, so why should they bear the cost of a full range of primer sizes for a very small percentage of their production?
Since they can do their own pressure testing, the primers they use are not "pistol primers" but are simply small primers used in both rifle and handgun lead free ammo.
This is not the first .45 ACP ammo to be loaded with small primers. Nor is it the first cartridge to be loaded with two primer sizes. The .357 Magnum was once loaded with large primers, the .45 ACP was originally loaded with small primers (it was a pretty "high pressure" cartridge when it was developed in 1905 and Browning hedged his bets with a small primer to reduce pressure on the breech face). Small primers have a smaller surface area for the pressure to act upon. The primer and primer pocket are the "weak link" in the case. The .308 (in a case called the ".308 BR") and 6.5 Creedmore have been loaded with both large and small primers, as precision shooters have favored small primers for consistency in some cases, and many others also.
Sorting range brass prior to cleaning is one of the joys of reloading. 👍
Yep. lol
Thanks for this video. I'm just starting. I picked up brass today and there is some federal small and some other large. Glad I came across your video.. . . thanks
I ran across this today, and also with Federal cases that I've picked up at the range. I use a Lee primer pocket after each depriming on my single stage press. This is a very easy way to immediately tell what I have, and of course, I separate them. Thanks for the video!
I just got a batch of 500 once fired .45 ACP brass here in Jan 2021. While prepping the cases, found that the wire brush for cleaning large primer pockets wouldn't go in some of the cases. Looking carefully, I saw some of the .45 brass had small primer pockets. I was surprised. I had never heard of .45 ACP using small primers. I went through the bag and separated out the small primer cases. I can still reload them using small primers.
Thank you so much for the great advice. I thought that all .45 caliber was larger primers for reloading.
Actually back in the olden days Frankford arsenal had an odd sized and smaller primer for the government 45 ACP ammo that was much harder to see than the obviously small small pistol primer. They were also mecuric primers which attacked the brass if you got one of those in your star reloader it would jam the primer feed and the shell plate as the rim would get ripped off the case due to the weakened brass. Ok so I'm super old.
Great video! Small primer 45 ACP cases are a pain if not sorted. I’ve started hand priming a lot of my cartridges due to my entry level progressive press being finicky when priming. I’ve had that press probably 30 years and use it for small quantity runs. I have a Dillon that I leave set up for high volume runs. Anyway, when hand priming you can detect a problem with the priming process 99.9% of the time. If it’s the wrong size primer, military crimp, even even loose primer pockets can be detected by the feel/resistance felt while seating the primer. So I use the hand priming process to sort my small pocket brass.
Note: my entry level progressive press is a wonderful press. The priming system can be tinkered with and the addition of partially disassembled sizing die over the priming station improves reliability considerably. However, hand priming has all the benefits previously described and removes the frustration of priming malfunctions.
I’ve also run into this loading 38 Special. I bought some brass from an old-timer and there was some 38-44 mixed in. Dimensionally and functionally it’s the same, but the 38-44 uses large primers whereas 38 Special uses small primers.
Never run across any 38-44 brass at the ranges i use...but thanks for the heads up!
Correct. Both .38 Special (.38-44 IS the .38 Special with a heavy load, sort of a 1930s-1960s "+P") and .357 Magnum have been loaded with large pistol primers in the past.
Thank you SO much!
I previously thought the small primed cases were only the aluminum ones.
I have a lot of brass to check....just getting started in reloading.
I buy bulk once fired, and i sort them by head stamp so i just keep adding to the bags and when they're 1000 plus in the bag I'll use that bag to load with so they'll all be the same head stamp. I set all the small pistol aside. I don't load it because i have over 17k large pistol primers that i got when they were still cheap so i keep the small primers i have for things that don't have another option.
New reloader here. Education and recognizing good information will help me be a safer and more productive shooter.
...yeah it IT IS a pain in the balzonies...now I gotta sort them after I tumble them;..I've got a 'sufficient' supply of older brass so right now it's not a big concern for me...I've had the same situation of smaller cases getting stuck inside another larger case but when I sort them in the squirrel cage most of them come apart...
I’ve reloaded a lot of 45 ACP’s that had small primer pockets. Yes, they were all Federals. They made great Ammo, no problem, but I was careful to prime them accordingly.
Blazer uses small pistol primers as well. Was a real eye opener while priming.
I've been there done that... no fun at all.
I have run into this as well and really can't understand the logic behind it. I have also noted that newer Federal and Blazer brass will not size correctly. This has occurred in not only .45ACP, but 9mm as well. It is my belief that the walls in these types of brass is not nearly as thick as before. It slows me down, but I have come to watch the headstamps on brass and in the cases as above, I throw them out, as well as the small primed .45's
huntingupland ... yes and that affects the loading data, usually it is not reflected in the reloading manuals.
I just found a bunch of blazer small primer brass myself. I use a hand primer so unless you are stupid you can find the problem quick without much danger. But this was a worthwhile video nevertheless.
I ordered a couple thousand casings and they were mixed large and small. My 5 year old daughter likes helping and even she has gotten good at sorting them lol
Be careful! It really gums up the works (at best) if you get a small primer pocket case in your batch of large primer cases!
The best way I found to segregate them, is to use a LARGE primer pocket cleaning tool and stick it into every primer pocket. Better to find out when your primer pocket cleaning tool doesn't fit.
This is why you look over each case for that and other problems that could arise like high pressure signs ,cracked cases , split cases Ect Ect
speer and federal use small primers. there are others but those 2 are very common.
That's good information. Never crossed my mind that anything other than a large primer was used.
Wow ive been reloading for a while now and I never new there was small primer 45 ACP. Thanks for the tip. Even though its 7 years old
I didn't either until I ran across these. I've been reloading for 40 years + and I learn something new every day.
Take care
Federal has some small primer pockets.No big deal I separate them before cleaning.
I agree it's no big deal.. if you even know that there is small primer brass out there that you need to separate... but at the time this video was done there was very little if any information out there... that is why I did the video.
Federal isn't the only one that is using small primer 45acp cases.
There is a pinned comment on using a 3/16 punch to verify which pocket is which quickly and easily for those that have a tough time telling the difference.
Excellent point for this newb going into reloading!
having had the Large primer in the small hole, I learned this the hard way, or should I say the loud way. great video as usual by good man !
Thank you sir.
Take care
Good video, good PSA, so to speak. Thank you.
ALWAYS inspect ALL your cases before loading. ALWAYS follow loading manual data to the "T". DO NOT substitute cases with small primers in loads designated for "large pistol" primers or vice versa.
In general, I do not use "range brass" UNLESS I happen to see a fellow shooter using factory ammo and they offer me their KNOWN TO BE "once fired" brass (which happens often enough) Picking up unknown brass is not a good idea.
Better to start with NEW or once fired cases so you KNOW the "history" of the cases.
FWIW the .45 ACP is not the only cartridge that has been loaded with both large and small primers. The .308 WCF and 6.5 Creedmore have been produced with both size primer pockets, among others. ALWAYS be sure of what you are loading and follow manual instructions.
I myself like having a choice between large and small primer brass.
The problem is that back when this video was uploaded most 45 ACP loaders didn't have a clue that small primer 45acp cases even existed. The small primer cases work just as well as the large primer cases. The problem arose because people that didn't know tried seating large primers into small primer pockets... and that ain't good. Now days most people know this... but not all... so I have left the video up to help those that didn't know.
I have to agree with you there, while others were freaking out and tossing the SPP 45 ACP brass I was gathering it up and filled a 3-gallon bucket eventually. @@papasplace2
AS if the primer cup issue wasn't enuff. If you are loading for a single action revolver cylinder - esp Ruger, make sure your bullets are sized to .451. I gave up on my blackhawk cylinder for about 20 years because I didn't know this. Works great now... and the accuracy is fab!
Thanks for the heads up. 45 ACP has always been large pistol primers from its inception. This small pistol primer use is something recent.
Of course, when using range brass, we are supposed to inspect each case and sort them, but you have pointed out one more thing to check. And an important check because old timers like me, who have "known" for 40 years that 45 ACP is large pistol primers, might not look at the size of the primer.!!!
That's the reason I decided to put up the video. I have been reloading for over 40 years... the one thing that i have seen is that are always going to be changes in the way we do things... sometimes for the better sometimes not.
It's all in the details.
Thanks for taking the time to comment
Take care
Actually large lémures were added to the 45 ACP during a war time shortage when the US Army was transitioning from the 45 Colt to the 45 ACP (Sotheby’s story goes but please fact check as this is only a story😆), The end result is what we see today; I currently reload both small and large primers for the 45 ACP with no ill effects on function or accuracy. Hope this helps.
you could set in a easy chair and do primer pocket cleaning with large pocket primer watch tv and dont even have to look
to sort
Learned something today. Thanks
Glad to help
I told my buddy that I didn’t want to shoot his .40 cal because the brass is so close to the same size as the 45 cases I didn’t want to have to sort them out. But now that I have to sort them anyway we should have just shot the 40.
Hey, how about that firing pin drag??
Been reloading alum and steel empties. Good plinkers. Also should note brass thickness varies, +P, IMI, etc. for the barrel ramp relief. Brass rim diameters and rim thickness vary significantly, as well as extractor grooves. All vary a lot from brand to brand, batch to batch. Consistent precision reloading requires painstaking measuring and sorting. Plinking... not so much. Many wonder why some brass extracts and throws that way, some that way, etc. It is the brass dimensions. Tuning 1911 extractors to "do it all" is not understood by most shooters. Thanks for a good video.
This was all range pickup brass in the video... It was this batch that I discovered the small primer brass. My old stash is all large primer and is getting up in age.
I got a Lee classic 45 acp Lee loader the portible reloader because reloading presses are stupid expensive now a days
Interesting trivia about government primers in .45 acp. According to Henry Stebbins book "Pistols, a Modern Encyclopedia", page 265, Frankford Arsenal loaded a .204 diameter primer as opposed to the .210 LG and .175 sm.. A friend who had loaded surplus cases since WW 2 only discovered this when he tried primeing with a Lee tool, his bench mounted Star loader compressed them in place without problems or noticeable difficulty.
Separate brass before tumbling....That said thanks for heads up on 45acp....I just got my first 1911.
Good video. For the newbies don’t ever ram in a primer regardless of size. You will learn to feel it after a while. It’s a learning curve thing.
Second they have baskets that separate brass. They work really well
Where I get my once fired 45 acp brass from has both. You just pick the size you want. I only use large primer.
Federal and CCI Blazer brass. I think there is one more brand, but I have to check my brass stash. I prefer large primers.
Yea me too on the large primers for 45acp
Boy those cases will get stuck tight! Looking forward to what you will be loading on the new channel.
Thank you sir.
With me you never know what's going to show up.... or when! LMAO
Take care
Great safety video .Thanks for the warning .
When I tumble different size cases together, I add the larger ones and tumble for a few minutes. Then I add smaller brass. This gives the larger one time to fill up with media before I add the smaller brass. JMHO
Speer, CCI/Blazer, Federal have been using small primers since 2006, 2008. Pay attention, wear safety goggles and do your homework.
I separate the small and large I save the plastic case that comes in the box. What about silver shells
It's nickel plated treat it like normal brass
Guess it's a good thing in 2021. You're lucky to get any primers right now. Let's you load the primers your lucky enough to find.
I learned my lesson a very long time ago... buy cheap and stack 'em deep. I will never get caught short again. I have what I need for now. Those who didn't stock up or are new to reloading are scrambling right now. I helped a couple of close friends out but have reached the "Sorry I can't help you out" zone for now.
Over my reloading career of 46 years I have seen lots of crazy things... but have learned from each of them. I pray that things will get closer to normal again soon... but I don't think that things will get any better for a long time.
Ya, “GIFS GOOT FEELINGK”! For such an old video, the quality of it looks pretty good! Nice & sharp & very good lighting! BUT you said nothing about all that “FIRING PIN DRAG” on the primers, most all anyway! Something seems “amiss” here!! I assume the primer ignition holes to the powder are the same diameter for both small & large primers. Thanks! “Gesundheit”!!!
That was all range pick up brass that I had picked up. If it had been from one of my guns I would have said something about it. The video was just about "discovering" something I had never seen before and a warning to everyone that the small primer 45acp cases were out there and to be careful when picking up brass that wasn't yours. Having a primer discharge on you when your seating them is NEVER a good time. As far as I know the the holes are the same for both. The loads for reloading both are the same.
Fantastic heads up my friend! I would have never thought to check that. Had no idea they were using small pistol primers in some 🙂👍👍👏
Yea, I was caught off guard too. So I figured I would share the klnowledge.
So they're like the catfish of casings? They swallow anything smaller. lol
Yep, and spit it out just as fast too. lol
I kinda wish i had more SPP 45 brass since i have thousands of SPP and only a couple hundred LPP but i could obviously just get more small primer brass but i have so much large pistol brass already! Can always use more primers i guess especially before the election! LPP here i come
I love small primers they’re 3 c cheaper per!! I wish I had a load of small primer .45 brass
The only thing that was ever wrong about small primer 45acp brass was when not many new they existed and there were more then a few primers that scared the heck out of people. Back when I made this video it was just to let people know that there were small primer 45acp brass out there and to make sure they double checked any range brass they picked up.
Nothing wrong with small primer 45acp brass... like you I wish I had more of it right now because small primers are more available and cost less then then large primers these day.
Just for information, 10mm also comes in small primer. I found out when I bought a bucket of 10mm brass, about 1/4 was small primer.
Great vid and great info. Thank you!
Thank you for taking the time to stop by and commenting.
Take care
I seen a video that a guy loaded 20 rounds, 10 with SPP amd 10 with LPP and on averaged the SPP were a little bit higher velocity. I know even in rifle brass Lapua makes 6.5 creedmor in SPP. As long as you identify what ones ypu have I dont see the big deal.
The problem is that since day the 45acp used large pistol primers and you could pickup any 45acp brass and get busy reloading them. Now they are starting to throw some small primer cases... you just have to be careful and make sure you separate the 2 sizes of primer pockets. They both work well.
So I run across some Blazer today while hand priming .45 ACP with a Lee auto prime. I figure, hmmm... won't go in, I didn't think Blazer crimped it's primer pockets? I get get out my primer pocket swaging die. Still no go... Then I triple check and discover it's got a small pistol primer. Been loading .45 ACP for years, never checked primer size. I'm thankful I was hand priming, or the the added pressure of the Rock Chucker could have set it off.
The blazer cases I have are all old... large primer brass cases. I have enough brass saved from over the years that I won't need to add any more. If I was picking up range brass I would make double checks to make sure that the small primer cases get separated from the large primer cases.
One of those damned small pocket 45's got by me the other day. That large primer sounded like a shotgun going off in my workshop.
Yep, been there done that.
Kurt S left a comment below and I found it to be invaluable! use a 3/16 inch flat tip pinch... if it fits in the primer pocket opening it is a large primer pocket.... if it doesn't it is a small primer pocket... much more positive way to separate out small and large primer pockets then just looking!
Thanks for the heads up
thanks for the heads up, as I'm new to this and wouldn't of given that a second thought
The whole reason I do the videos that I do is for the new people. There are so many little things that you watch for and do when you reload...sometimes you just take them for granted. If you don't catch or do the step it really can be a mess to get it fixed not to mention that it could be dangerous too.
Thanks for taking the time to comment
Take care
Walter... Blazer makes a version called "Blazer Brass", brass case and small primer pockets.
They certainly do...I just found some in my range brass! Just get a set of .45 ACP dies and was going to start reloading next weekend...I will definitely be sorting out the brass and tossing the ones with small primer pockets!
So far the only sm primer I've found were in federal and blazer brass.
what's your opinion on load data when using small vs. large primers?
I have never tried to reload small primer 45acp. I trash all the small primer stuff I find. That being said, I have read that there is no difference in the loads between small and large primers. I would strongly suggest doing a lot more research on the subject.
Papa's Place .. ill take the small brass.
I don't have enough of it to do anything with.... LOL
Wow you might have saved my life! Just getting into reloading and I'm starting with 45 acp
Saved you life????? no, but saved you from having the crap scared out of ya maybe. lol
Thanks for stopping by
Always wear safety glasses when priming cartridges and do not have any other primers or powder in the vicinity.
Progressive presses have safety systems built in to separate primers and powder, but always wear safety glasses when loading ammunition.
Yeah, I've picked those up off the range. I expect them every now and then. I'm not going to sort them. I can tell when I have them because they don't seat obviously. But on the dillon, it's apparent right away....not a lot of power on the upstroke priming part. Never had an explosion or chain reaction series of events. I'm not saying a pop can't happen...just I've never had one. I'm not worried about it. It's a nuisance more than a danger. I understand I will not have a leg to stand on when the safety card is thrown out in an argument. I get it.
Yep. I quit picking up 45acp range brass shortly after this showed it's ugly head. I have more brass then I will ever really need anyways... it's just that being a cheap a$$ reloader it's really hard for me not to pick it up when I see it! LOL
Good Lord people. Small primers in 45ACP started showing up on the range floor in the mid to late 90s. I know this because I started reloading in 92/93 and people were bitching about it and giving me the small primer ACP brass.
I've been reloading since 1970. Never ran across or even heard anyone ever talk about small primer 45acp brass until I ran across these in some range brass I was given.
I figured I would share the knowledge with those interested. You may have known about them and the people that gave you the small primer brass knew... but not everyone else knew they even existed. Thus this terrible video.
You need to look up 450smc.. WHAT YOU MAY HAVE THERE IS 450SMC AMMO.. which is a 45acp super charged or if you will 45acp magnum
It's funny (strange, not haha) this video should appear in my YT feed. I'm just getting into reloading, 45 acp is where I'm starting, and...I didn't search for this...but I was just wondering to myself if there ever were small primer 45 acp...The YT algorithm is scary.
Yes it is... Glad you watched and learned something... but when stuff like that happens to me I really don't like it... it's like someone is watching over my shoulder....drives me nuts! LOL
@@papasplace2 Hey I have a question maybe you could answer or direct me to a resource. Because I'm probably not using the correct internet search terms. I have a couple of different reloading manuals. Hodgdon 2022 Annual and a Lyman 50th Edition. I'm not able to find, locally, any of the powders listed in the manuals for 230gr FMJ/TMJ. If I buy pistol rated powder from a local store, what should I use as a starting point for the amount of charge? Is there another resource out there, like an online calculator, that if I enter in some specifics, it can give an idea of what the pressures would be and velocities of the projectiles? I can't be the first to have run into this.
@@ericinMN1970 Try this site... www.hodgdonreloading.com/ .
Click on pistol...then select your cartidge/bullet weight and you will see all kinds of info on starting loads and max loads. Great information. Almost every powder company has a site that will list what each powder is good for cartridge wise with load data.
Now finding powders on the shelf during this crazy times is not easy... some powders are useful in several calibers( more flexible usage) then others.
@@papasplace2 Thank you! I will check that link out. It really threw me when I'm looking in my manuals, see half dozen plus powder options per bullet, and so far not finding any of them available to me locally. I could order online but I live in the city and anything left at my door is very likely to get removed.
@@ericinMN1970 have it shipped to work... I used to do that all the time.
.45acp cases with small primers are the devil. Had about 100 in 4 gallons of .45 brass. Took forever to sort, but it had to be done.
Yes they are. I found out the hard way.
It pays to take the time with range brass to sort out the good from the evil... lol
Take care
If you make these mistakes, you shouldn't be reloading. Especially the primer sizes.
Back when this video was made the small primer 45acp had just started to appear. Prior to that time 45acp brass was only large primer... therefore it wasn't necessary to check the size of the primers. I made the video to make people aware that there were small primer 45acp cases out there and to make sure that they started to check any range brass that they picked up or bought.
I prefer small primer pocket better primer pocket support in 10mm and 45 Acp even use Rem 7.5 primers .
When I originally posted this 10 years ago I did it just to give people a heads up on the existence of small primer 45acp cases... up until then it was 100% large primers. There isn't anything wrong with small primers... so long as you know to keep an eye out for them. They work just fine. The problem arises when you aren't expecting them and try to set a large primer into a small primer case... bad ju ju!
Thanks I’m new to this reloading, I will subscribe .
YES I began to realize this also...I use magnum primers any how all loads that is me though.
You taught me something. Thank you
Your more then welcome sir
I dont buy Federal, Speer or CCI anymore.
I am as old school as they come... but there is an upside to having a small primer 45acp case... at least you can get primers to reload them for less the $70 a brick! The last large pistol primers I saw were still over $100 a brick.. I am never going to pay that kind of money! The small primers shoot fine in the 45acp... just have to rework your loads. Not to mention keeping them separate from your large primer cases.
Small primers create more even ignition...
I have been shooting 45acp for over 40 years with large primers and have never had any problems with powder ignition... not saying it is impossible, just that I have never had an issue. I quit picking up 45acp range brass shortly after making this video because I have no need for the small primers and the danger they represent if missed while inspecting the brass.
@dualspectrumreality ytilaermurtcepslaud Yes, I have more then enough 45 acp to last me and I see more and more small primer brass every time I go to public range. The chance of trying to insert a large primer is a small primer case is just too great for me to risk. One is all it takes to ruin a good day.
I actually did the same. Trying to separate the brass is just a pain in the butt. Given that large primer pockets are more ubiquitous in .45 auto, that's what I pretty much stick to. That and pretty much all the other pistol calibers i load for are large primers as well.
I'm starting to reload 45acp for the first time. I have range brass that has already been d primed how do I tell which one is the larger pocket?
If you look at the video at about 1:13 you can see the small primers on the left and the large primers on the right. It is easy to see the difference between the 2 sizes. I believe that your going to pick up more large size( more common) then you will the newer small primers.
Take the time to look at each case to make sure what you have. Trying to seat a large primer into a small primer pocket is no fun at all!
Yea I looked at your video & saw the drift with the primer. But I don't have any primers in my brass. Can I still tell the difference between the two?
Yep. It is very apparent when you see the 2 next to each other.
@@roberthill7872 : Yes the holes on the small primer is smaller and easy to see if you have both. Of not look up the primer diameters and measure one. Once size is determined, put one aside for later comparison. What a pain...
Thanks for the heads up. If using small primers on 45ACP is there a preference between small magnum and regular small primers? Thanks,
ALWAYS use the casing and primer specified by the loading manual. Substituting components will cause variances in results, which may result in bad things.
Appreciate the info
From what I've read if you want to load +P 45acp then using small primer brass works better.
Thanks for the tip! 👍
Thanks for stopping by!
Old fart here been reloading over 40 years . My two cents everyone at first is at least semi attentive as we gain experience we become complacent. Loading ammunition ya gotta pay attention. Relax enjoy your hobby I own a fine blue progressive press still resize/deprime with my old Rockchucker if it sizes too easy the brass is worn out this is just one of my habits some of my brass has been shot allot did I mention I'm old
Ain't non of us getting any younger....lol
Thanks
Whoever had the idea of using small primers in .45acp needs to be tarred and feathered.
Yep! LOL
It's a pain in the butt, but I just segregate them after decapping and cleaning.
Yep.
I have enough 45 brass to last me... so I don't pick up range brass anymore.
I would like to see you comment o the primers.
Either primer will work well... the problem came up a few years ago because everyone was used to dealing with large pistol primers for the 45acp... it had been that way for decades. Several people didn't catch the newer small primers when reloading range brass and had several detonations which can be very dangerous not to mention scary as hell!
This video was pit up just to make people aware that there are both variations out there and to make sure that they do a very good inspection on what they have!
who has data for loading small primer
support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase/article/45-acp-large-primer-load-data-vs-small-primer-load-data
@@papasplace2 Thanks
The left side was fired out of a glock or m&p.
Fast forward to 2021 and there are “no” primers!
Oh, They are out there...the problem is that people panicked and started buying up everything in sight. Primers are showing up at places like Midway, Brownells and Powder Valley semi regularly. The prices the stores are selling them for has actually dropped some from the crazy prices in the beginning.
Thank you for posting.
Thank you for taking the time to not only watch but leaving a comment too. Thanks!
45/70 will also ingest all manner of small brass.17/22hornet/223/32auto yada yada be aware
Well as easy as small primers are getting to be maybe I should have kept some of them Large primers are still crazy hard to find.
thank you !!!! First time that i saw this !!!
Your more then welcome
What a horrible, awful inconvenience this will cause for dudes reloading hundreds of pounds of mystery brass, ouch
I quit picking up range brass 45acp because of this. I figured I had plenty and I really didn't want the headache pf going through and separating them out. The small primer brass reloads and shoots fine... I just prefer the large primers.
excellent infos.. much appreciated!!
7.62X39 suffers the same problem. Remington is small everyone else is large.
Hate when they do that.... Remington is becoming a regular PITA lately.
Thanks for stopping by
someone needs to check thier firing pin!!!
This was all range brass pick up... a practice I have since given up because of the small primer issue. I have more then enough brass for my use and will let others deal with separating the brass.
Why?
The T shaped indent is from a striker. Like a Glock, Sig P320, Springfield XD series. They've only been like that oh, 35 years or so.
Maybe someone should brush up on their firearms knowledge.
Brass sorting 101.
Yep
But back when this video was made very few even knew that they were making small primer pocket 45acp cases... so no one knew to even look and check.
Winchester brass is soft . I have been loading 45 acp for decades never had a problem .
Yep leave it to federal to mess it all up. I believe they are the only company doing small primers but could be wrong. I just sort all my brass and only load the large primer .45
Speer is also doing the small lead free primers.
I have 99.8% large primer brass... if I ever get enough of the small I will either load it or sell it.
Thanks for taking the time to stop by.
Take care
jAs251000, Blazer Brass also