Primer Pocket Uniforming performance compared
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- In this video we perform a comparison of the same load test with the Hornady 140 ELD and Reloder 16 with and without uniformed primer pockets.
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Thank you for this. You have saved me, and no doubt other watchers, from wasting time and money chasing after better groups with primer pocket work.
Agreed!
I was kind of excited to see this because I thought there would be a difference also. And I appreciate you doing the work for me. I agree the results are inconclusive. One less thing to worry about. I'm glad to be a subscriber to your Channel. Keep up the good work, and keep the videos coming.
diminishing returns... I agree as well. when I started reloading I was so concerned about all this little stuff. now, I'm happy when i have found the accuracy/efficiency balance.
I decided to do a little test a couple months ago, after spending WAY too much time on case prep. I took 10 cases, full length sized, trimmed, prepped (chamfer, debur, clean and uniform primer pockets), and tumbled them like I usually do. Then I took 10 cases, neck sized and trimmed them, and that was it. Loaded all 20 up, and saw almost no difference at all! All that case prep and tumbling, and it did nothing more that simply doing a quick neck size, trim, and load as is!
It's pretty well documented by all of the top shooters in the world that neck sizing only leads to reliability issues pretty quickly. Better off FL sizing, slight bump, expand neck to size, trim, light inside chamfer remove sizing lube, send it.
I have been reloading precision 9mm pistol and .223 for 15 years and using 9mm in IDPA fast shoot competition. The main reason for primer pocket uniformIng is making sure during a stage I don't get a snap fire. It never fails that just when you need a round to fire the firing pin hits a primer and drives it forward without firing. Also, it's just part of precision case prep along with length measuring and chamfering as well as case cleaning. It's just part of the art of reloading.
Thank you. Yes a worthwhile video. The real benefit to carefully preparing brass is eliminating any "bad actors". Brass is so much better than 20 years ago.
Glad you liked it.
Not what I expected, but good to know! Thanks for your thoughtful experiments.
Stopped uniforming when was getting some that came up loose on first load. Also with Hornady brass seems very little done anyway. Just use a Redding Flash Hole Deburring tool. Sub MOA at 300 from my 308 bolt gun. I am happy.
I actually removed more than I expected with Hornady, but didn't even to seem to touch the Lapua brass I uniformed.
Tried the same thing, same results. HOWEVER, When I did the INSIDE primer hole cone ream it made a HUGE difference in load velocity consistancy. Did slightly enlarge the flash hole too. WAY better results.
Same for me but the real test is in long range this is just 1 variable of 100 more.
Raul Martinez , So true bud!! Its eliminating thoes variables that bring true uniformity. (As Im sure you already knew that) When I first started reloading MANY years ago i was surprised to see the lil "button" inside the case made during the mfg process where the punch makes the primer holes. My mentor said inside reaming the flash hole eliminated that "button" & made the inner hole more like a rockets constrictor nozzle in reverse & produced a cleaner more uniform primer flame spread that burned the powder from the bottom up better rather than the flame squirting out sideways & than back around that "button" igniting the charge more consistantly. I.E. better accuracy. I tried it both ways just to see if it actually made any difference. It DID! Velocity spreads went from 40-50 FPS down to 10 FPS or less shot to shot. Impressed the hell out of me!! Been inside reaming since. Was also told to NOT do the outside hole. Longer pocket primer life & tighter primer fit. THAT also turned out to be true. Just a touch inside w the internal reamer to clear the flash hole was enough. The walnut shell tumbling cleaned the outside hole well enough. Im a real stickler about consistant velocities & a few lil tricks makes ALL the difference. Was also taught to neck squeeze the bullets just a tad when seating the slug even w non cannelured bullets to give just a bit of resistance to the exiting bullet for a better burn. That also seems to work. I crimp all my cannelured bullets a bit tighter. Prefer a roll crimp on the heavy hitters. 44, 45/70, 375, ect. On my grizzly loads I do both. First the roll then the squeeze to really push the case mouth TIGHT into the cannelures. Keeps em from backing out during the heavy recoil of my really HOT loads. 44, 454, 45/70 Bear thumpers. I live in the AK bush & we have freikin bears EVERYWHERE!! Dont even go to the outhouse w/o at least a short bear shotgun along. 😁
Raul Martinez , Forgot to mention, I DO the outside pocket primer on the 1st loading only. After that, no need, the tumbler does its job just fine.
@@davejan744 like you I test the rocket cone inside the case and works super fine but the cases life decreases a lot any way is good practice
Raul Martinez , Thats funny! I always thought my cases were blowing up because I load em super hot. 4-5 loadings & its time for the junk brass bucket! 😁
If you compete in long range shooting , I say go for it . But for a weekend warrior nah. Pray and Spray .
Primer pocket uniforming helps the new primer seat correctly! Round likes round
Thanks for your time and work! Keep it up very interesting and informative.
Thanks, glad you find it interesting.
I quit uniforming primer pockets last year, I do use a uniformer to clean the pockets very lightly. unless your shooting custom barrels it really doesn't make a diff if your using Lapua brass I would def not uniform the pockets. But if you think it helps do it you can always experiment best way to learn
Depends on brass used. I used to be a cheap skate on brass and I bought large lots of once fired S&B brass. With a load of work including pocket uniforming and inside deburring I was able to get less than 20fps figures. I could do better with lapua brass with less work but it was far far more expensive. So I would use the cheap brass out to 600 and lapua past that
Doing a 500 yard zero for 338 Lapua and 416 Barrett, the uniformed primer pockets make significant difference. Both rilfes shooting 1.5 - 2in groups at 500y 3-4in groups at 1000y. 338 was 8-10 group at 1000y. So the difference, at least in medium to big bore was good enough to spend the extra time on brass prep. just my .02 grains worth
Nice for a person to know there is a baseline for depth of the primer, that is one variable we can control at least. Not so sure about the CCI250 being helpful with the RL16, don't really think that powder needs the extra pressure to ignite it, in that size cartridge, a mild std primer may possibly work better. My experience with Hornady hasn't been great either, so, I tend to avoid their stuff where possible. I do better with Scenars and Berger OTM, but, am also using RL16.
Once again, awesome content.
Thank you.
Another great test!
Thanks!
The more you “clean” the pocket, the looser your primers fit. But cleaning the flash hole is a good idea, especially with the low priced dirty powders.
Exactly my feeling.
Brass manufacturers love for you to do this. Wears out brass quicker.
What depth/crush did you seat primers to? How uniform were the pockets before you cut them? Great content thank you 🙏
yeah, if he's using good brass that's fairly uniform already, might not be worth it.
I only uniform the pocket if I can get primers seated properly. I have only had to do it with Winchester and Remington brass so far.
I'm new to reloading. And I just loaded my first 50 rounds. I do not have a pocket reamer or uniformer so I'm hoping it doesn't affect my shooting results
I really enjoyed this video. This mirrors my experience and I don't waste my time now
One of the 1st things I noticed when I bought my 1st box of Lapua brass was how much better their flash hoes were. I would do this on cheaper brass if I was trying to lower ES/Sd's. On Lapua brass I don't even think about it. I now only use Lapua brass on my precision rifle loads. On all my other stuff I use cheaper brass.
That’s a good standard. I would never do it on new quality brass, but just came across several hundred old .30-06 Lake City cases from the 1960’s. The pockets were definitely cruddy and inconsistent, so I uniformed them all with the same Sinclair tool he shows in the video. It uninformed them and cleaned them up, so I think it was worth it for the old brass.
Some observations: 1) overall, the primer pocket uniforming made a slight improvement in accuracy, 2) the test results are really dependent on how bad the original primer pockets were and you may have had a good lot of brass, 3) the CCI #250 magnum primers and their relatively large spark may offset the differences in primer seating depth, and 4) the differences may be more visible in a test using a larger case, such as your 300 Win Mag.
Did you do anything to the flash holes?
The only thing that was different was the Primer pocket uniforming. They had all been fired FL sized (I know bring out the torches) Flash hole deburred , basically my full prep. (No neck turning, yet)
The most interesting part is the speed increase.
Great videos, best reloading dedicated channel hands down. Question for you, has the Hornady brass performed well and has it had good service life? I've got a bunch I used in my rifle and am about to start reloading, so was curious what you think. Thanks!
I have tested Peterson brass lately and am very impressed. I recommend it if they make it in whatever caliber you are looking for.
@@BoltActionReloading I think they do make it in .260. I appreciate the input!
No problem.
I know I'm a little late here but.... I noticed that some brass of the same lot get more depth cut than others, some are completely shiny and cut, some are not so much. Getting them close to the same depth has to have a impact on consistency at longer ranges. Most issues don't show up until you get out past 500, for me anyway. Great video
interesting results
Yes great vid. And no i did not thinknot would make a diff. Lee said clean brass dirty brass never made a bit of diff. This is kind of the same thing
Mike Atlas, " LEE" is wrong. Clean brass cycles better & w every firing residue builds up inside the cases & primer holes & changes the internal dimensions which changes overall performance. Consistancy is EVERYTHING!! A good walnut shell tumbling cleans out the "crud" & keeps brass internal dimensions consistant. To the weekend "pray & spray" shooter it wont matter much because theyre happy w 5 in an inch but to serious shooters thats NOT good enough.
@@davejan744 5 shots in a inch is spray and pray weekend warrior stuff??? Not good enough???
I stop after I get 5 shot 1 inch groups at 100yds and move to my next caliber. I can clearly see your OCD powers are stronger than mine.
@@eaznutts5714 , DEFINATELY OCD!! I even break rod powders in half to get EXACT charge weights. But out here in the AK bush where I live the shots are few/ far between & make the difference between eating
or not. If each round isnt perfect, at 500+ yds its the difference between a clean drop or chasing a wounded critter into a bear which by Alaska law the " kill" now belongs to the bear & you CANT shoot the bear over a kill. Luckily, our winters nights are long & one has a lot of time. I might get 20 perfect rounds loaded on a good night. And I prefer just under
the ear shots. ( 300 or less) or through the heart on the yotes/wolves at
ANY distance. Prob w long wolf shots is u have to.get to the wolf quickly if wounded before the other wolves rip.it apart. Wolves wont tolerate a wounded pack member that weakens the pack so they destroy their own. Which compleatly ruins the pelt value. If its dropped clean the others just run off. If your fast/ lucky
u can get multiple kills before they vanish. Sometimes in the summer If u drop a moose/ caribou a bear will come out of nowhere & claim.your
kill anyway. Grizzlys are SMART. They hear a gunshot they run to it knowing theres an easy meal down just waiting on them. If your on your kill first & the bear then tries to take it u can shoot the bear in self defense. But he better have powder burns on his chest or F&G hangs you. Alaska laws are weird. Kill a man get 7 years. Poach a moose get 30. Shoot a tourist, get a medal! ( Just kidding about the tourist.😁)
@@davejan744 that's awesome stuff. AK's frontier laws sound like AZ's wild West laws. You could get hanged here for cattle rustling to this day. Good luck this winter.
always enjoy your knowledge, are you just meaning the primer pocket , or do you include the flash hole deburr in the cleaning and preparation of the case, ?
Maybe at 1000 yards can see the differences. I allways do but only for long range competition.
What depth did you uniform the pockets too? Saami specs?
I think with cheap brass it is worth it.
Would be cool to see examples of clean and unclean primer pocket, although I didn't see the other vid. Just popped over from johnny to see this one, maybe I'll check it out. Cool.
Lots of stuff here on the channel. Please feel free to comment or point things out you think that I missed. This channel is all about getting the best loads we can without wasting time with things that don't matter. Welcome!
Did you by chance Flash Hole Unifrom inside the case? I know that Uniforming the Primer Pocket and doing this process aswell gives you a huge overall results that truly better.
Been reloading now for years never needed to uniform my pockets till I’d shot my brass so much the primer pockets got wore from the little brush and the primers no longer set flush with the back wall of the primer pocket new brass should be good to go flash holes get burs from the decapping pin clipping it when you resize your brass as I expected you should se no variation with good brass shoot that brass 20 times each then re test
How many times was this brass fired? I think that this might have more of an effect on brass that has been shot 4+ times
you're right
Im just getting into reloading but i know i just want good ammo in the end to learn as much about it as I can but i know i won't use it all but i will know if i do decide to
Hello, what is the program you are using to analyse your group sizes?
I think it was a program called on target. There are several apps that do it these days I believe
@@BoltActionReloading Thank you, I'll have a look at it.
Maybe the advantage of pocket uniforming is less failed primer seatings and less wastage of primers?
Sure am glad u do these work-ups! Would u steer me to an earlier video or can u explain what the dimensions mean when describing your test results? What unit of measurements u use? Thanks in advance.
Hi Bill, What specific measurements are you confused about?
Bolt Action Reloading plz disregard. I screenshot the information, now I understand. Thanks.
The benefit may be more apparent in the processing the globally produced military rounds that have been swagged around the primer pocket? I have had some reloads that I could not get a small rifle primer into the pocket until it was uniformed, the cutter actually dragged on the inside diameter as well as the pocket depth. Those cases are hard to hang onto during the uniforming operation. What is the dimensional requirement for primer pockets and the design fit tolerance for the small and large pocket?
Hi Doug, removing a military crimp is not what these do. They just ensure the depth from case to case is consistent. If I was using Military brass I would need a different tool.
@@BoltActionReloading Thanks for the feedback. I understand the uniforming tool conforms the depth of the pocket, however, some of the cases are so tight on the Inside diameter that the case will freeze up on the cutter and spin the entire case. I have to be very careful not to break the cutter(it has happened ). That's why I was concerned about the inside diameter dimensional control during manufacturing, the tolerance required for the pocket inside diameter?
When I get new brass I always check if there's anything to remove from the primer pockets, and every time I get nothing to remove, uniforming is a thing of the past unless you buy junk brass there's no need to even check, you're wasting your time.
While I thank this gentleman for taking the time to collect some objective data and present it, I think his SD data...as highlighted by the results at 42.5 grains....is not statistically valid. five data points per load will simply will not be enough to rise above the noise in the data, IMO.
I have always thought that magnum primers were not necessary in loads with less than 60 grains of powder. I have read and heard this so many times that I tend to believe it.
Hi Joe, if your interested in this subject you might want to check out this playlist where I test lots of different primer combinations. Rifle Primer Evaluation: ruclips.net/p/PLXl7rMHW73NOtgyQHXIA-diiSYoEEDjiE
What’s your favorite powders for 6.5 creedmoor?
Right now, Reloder 16. H4350 works well it certainly not a secret, but Reloder 16 and 17 work well.
Bolt Action Reloading I have just got everything I need to get started. Waiting on my reloading room to get done being built and I’m ready to go. I have h4350, imr 4350, varget, reloader 16 And reloader 17. Fed 210, WLR, Cci br2, cci 200. Starline, Hornady and a crap ton of factory once fired brass from All kinds of different brands. RCBS rock chucker supreme as well as RCBS charge master as well as a lot of other tools and gadgets. Just got the lee hand trimmer. A set of digital calipers and a bullet puller. 130,140,147 eld m, 143 eld x, Sierra 142 and nosler 140 rdf.
I still want a concentricity tool, a good precision trimmer, Lapua brass, a Redding type s die.
Loving the channel I have binged watched you and a few others any spare moment lately. Can you give me some advice on what book is the best for reloading 6.5 Creedmoor for the components I have listed?
I would get the Hornady book to start if you don't have it. I think the data they have for they 147 ELD-M is still online for them since its not in the book. Sierra's 6.5 creedmoor data is online, if you haven't, download it. There listed max loads are more realistic than hornady at least for my rifle. For just the basics of reloading I like to watch the reloading for beginners series from Johnny's reloading bench. I am going to make a start to finish video some day but hope to get most of my tinkering dine first.
Halfdollar 86 H4350
H4350 for hi speeds hunthing aplications
Imr 4064 for target on the range
After that...You have my sub!
Welcome
With PPUing I thought you would at least get 1/4 MOA groups across all loads...
I’d bet you could make larger improvements by going to small rifle primer brass, or at least stepping back to a non magnum LR primer.
I have other videos on this. Magnum primers have served me pretty well.
Maybe I missed it but if this reloader did not uniform case neck thickness and manage neck tension as well as establishing a rail gun like set up this was a wasted effort
I thought there would have been a little bit better with primer pocket uniforming vs unmodified
+Mike Simpson I had slightly higher expectations myself. I will likely do some follow up work on this, maybe there will be a more pronounced difference then. Who knows. Thanks for watching though!
Case volume, neck tension and exact powder weight (to 1/50th grain) would have to be perfectly identical for each set of uniformed and ununiformed brass. As regards the accuracy of specific groups; that would also require the exact same hold and trigger release in the actual shooting. Just about impossible to replicate therefore the results are meaningless.
In this range of powder and velocity; if weighing within 1/50th of a grain could theoretically give us a velocity variation of about one foot two inches per second .
This would create a difference in bullet drop of roughly 0.0005 inches when shooting at 1,000 yards. Not even a ragged hole.
It was a nice exercise with data and equations.
Additional 75 feet per second with additional 1.3 grains, convert to 1/50 of, about 1.15 feet per second difference at 1/50th of a grain.
estimate based of that the difference in time to target very small fraction of a second difference between the two,
the acceleration of gravity multiplied by the difference in time to target squared all divided by two would be the difference in bullet drop when weighing to 1/50th of a grain
please talk slower, I kept having to replay to make sure of what you were saying. That said, the video was well done and well presented.
Charles Vaughan 😂
WOW better change your power these are very large groups
Dave Christensen not about group size with this test.
Brah....i guess you changed your mic..?
results may have been different had you used quality brass. JMO. J.
Statistically irrelevant I think. You are right, maybe a 50 shot group of the same load might tell us something.
1000 yards is the answer
If you had Used statistics you could have a much stronger conclusion. Opportunity missed. A list if measurements is Not statistics.
You talk to fast. You overflow me with your data. Sorry. Noel