The Danger Of Reduced Loads in Rifles
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2015
- Lots of interest these days in shooting heavy bullet reduced loads at subsonic velocity in rifles... but there is a real danger of blowing guns up with reduced charges of slow burning rifle gunpowders. Here's how to get around that problem...
Definitely something that should be better publicised in the current state of the U.S.A. The ammo shelves are empty and a shit storm is headed our way. Videos like this could save a persons life. Thanks for sharing!!!
In my quest for subsonic load data for 30-06 this video was very informative and usefull to me. Thank you.
+D Machado -- And good shootin' to ya, FC
Thank you for this info.
I came across your video while researching suggested loads for 30-06 around 1050fps....no one mentioned perils of slow powder..
YOUR VIDEO IS EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED...thanks, again.
Very informative & wise info for reloaders. I have loaded the 300H&H with a small dose of SR4759 and a dacron fiber fill to keep the powder next to the primer. Worked well and gave about 1600FPS with a 220 grain cast bullet. Also it would shoot 2 moa at 100 yards with almost no recoil. Cheap fun and almost unlimited case life. Keep up the good videos and thanks.
I have done a lot of reading regarding reduced charges lately as I shoot reduced charges in my old Spanish Mauser Carbine re-chambered to .308 as there is a belief they were not designed to handle full pressures of modern day 308 rounds. Plus, 308Win in reduced charges are a lot more pleasant to shoot, especially for the missus.
If you actually read the Lee Reloading Manual regarding reduced charges, it recommends you shouldn't reduce a load by more than 50% of the max load to be safe... and according to the burn rate chart, not to lower the charge by more than 20% of the max load of the slowest powders listed, and then increasing that amount by 1% as you go up the chart (burn rate gets quicker).
Using a powder such as H4895/AR2206H... you can safely reduce the load by 60% of a max charge as stated by manufacturers.
Both ADI / Hodgdon recommend Trail Boss for reduced loads as even a full compressed case of powder will never exceed max design pressures.
Consulting numerous reloading data (Speer / Nosler / Hornady / Hodgdon / ADI / Lyman / Lee) there can be some really massive differences in min/max loads from each source with same powder / bullet weight. It seems a lot of this data comes from accuracy testing... if a reduced load was not accurate in the test rifle, it probably doesn't get listed. There doesn't seem to be much science behind this data, its just trail and error. The myth of SEE or detonation was apparently something which could not be duplicated in test facilities, and as it is an unknown liability issue manufacturers would obviously take the safe route and just not recommend it. There seems to be a belief a reduced load is more likely to be doubled loaded in error, which may have started the whole reduced charge myth.
Last but not least.. if powder position in a case is the concern with a light load, there are people who use polyester filling material to ensure the powder remains at the base of the case (also has its pros and cons). To me, this is what intrigues me with reloading... finding the right combination of power / charge weight / bullet brand/weight and see what works best for your rifle.
Just do your research first and be safe.
do You have any experience using pistol powder for rifle (5.56 nato) charges?
Excellent info! This should have many many views. Thank you for taking time to put out this, and all of the reload information, well done sir.
+Marty Black -- You are prophetic - shooting videos don't get lots of views unless they are on what I call the "biggie shooting channels". This one is getting some nice numbers...One of my precepts is to not be wrapped up in the numbers game - but they are indicators as to what viewers that frequent the HLZ are looking for...The diversity of material within the shooting sports is staggering in breadth and scope... No views means no interest. Best Regards to ya, FC
Great info as always Mr. FC. Never thought a reduced load could be so dangerous. As a newer caster/reloader, these are the videos that could save a whole lot of nightmares. Thanks again
avid huntr1016 - Unless a slow burning rifle powder has been cleared for use in big reduced loads (like around 50%) by the powder manufacturer, slow burning powders should not be reduced below the starting charges listed in the reloading manuals. If we want reduced loads in rifles, we need to use fast burning pistol or shotgun powders to give us that - and those are in the reloading data manuals. Best to ya, FC
@@FortuneCookie45LC thank you so much for your content. I live in Brazil, and we are very short of gunpowder for rifle reloads (5.56)...I've been looking for the info on how to use pistol powder for rifle reloads for some time, and this is the first place where I've found it. Reloading manuals like the ones you show on your video are out of reach for most of us here in Brazil. I appreciated your video very much.
Great info, Thanks. I think another problem new re-loaders are having is that the powders in the manuals are ether very hard to find or no longer in production. The powders company's have not helped this any with all the new powders they have released over the last few years. Even their own loading data sheets are a work in progress. For many of us wanting to load for old military cartridges, you may find load data using a powder for cartridge X but for not for Cartridge Y. That powder may or may not work for Cartridge Y but no testing has been done or published. Loaders may then look elsewhere on the web to find a load for that cartridge or try to compare like cartridges for a load that may work and that can also be dangerous.
Great info, explained with a good level of detail. Well done!
Ahh, Unique. Great powder. Looking through my manual, it is listed in pretty much every single handgun cartridge. Very versatile. Always try to keep as much as possible.
+JunkfoodZombie -- It's been said that Unique is the one powder that can do everything handgun, shotgun and rifle (up to a limit with rifle). That's why they named it Unique... Best to ya, Jim!!
If you haven’t covered it yet..H110 (great stuff!) is another powder that requires a reduced-load caution. Works very well with a nearly full case, can misbehave erratically or very badly even with starting loads approved by reputable eggheads.
About time a video about this subject is published thank you .
+matt davis -- And thank you, matt, for taking the time to post comment...Have a great day - FC
Thank you so much for making this. I’ve got a 1944 PU Sniper rifle and a Bramit device and I’m desperately looking for a subsonic 7.62X54R recipe using coated cast bullets and Unique. You’ve at a minimum pointed me in the right direction. 🙏🙏🙏
Good info, thank you. appreciated.
Interesting safety information Fortune Cookie.
I would never have thought slow burners could be so dangerous...
Very interesting thanks, I have been buying my reloading equipment one piece at a time trying to be fully prepared for my first time reloading. Powder cop, halo light, bullet sizer, digital and mechanical scales ect.But none of this is worth a lick at experience. So just want to let you know that for me I like the use of my vision and the use of both hands, so I value the information I get from you FC, and elvis and loads of bacon and Johnnys reloading and many others on you tube. Thanks for sharing your data and safety tips, I 50 years old and I,m getting to old to hurt, I am no spring chicken any more and it takes a lot longer to heal now, so any avoidance
I can get from making a fatal mistake is much appreciated, and I hope that any young guns that think there the man of steel takes heed to safety as well. God bless
The patriot - Our firearms are safe to shoot, but in rare instances, they can be unsafe. After all, the only difference between our guns on firing and a 250 pound bomb when the detonator fires is 1) difference in the powder 2) size of the event 3) guns release the pressure before exploding. Our guns easily generate upwards to 65,000 psi, but vent any additional pressure rise before strength of the steel fails. If the pressures are higher due to mistaken charges or wrong powders used, or if the pressure is confined, our guns really are bombs in our hands. It strongly behooves us to do it all safely to guard against badness. Does this mean we should not shoot? No way...consider when we drive our cars - there is tremendous kinetic energy there, plus the explosive powder of 4 sticks of dynamite times the number of gallons of gas on board. Drivers and passengers do not have the inertial dampeners of Star Trek in accidents. People die in cars when there is unsafety. Getting out of bed is unsafe. Life is unsafe. We need to urge all the young people that safety is the first consideration in whatever they do and wherever they do it. Sorry for saying the obvious... FC Steve
I think most all manuals have caveats such as "do not reduce starting loads". Sage advice. Seems like I read somewhere that reduced loads of slow burning rifle powders have so much powder surface area that it burns way too fast, thus creating dangerous conditions. Always follow reliable loading data.
ive been reloading 6grns of aliant steel in 30-30 with 113grn powder coat cast bullet with 100% successful after hundreths of rounds. the powder does float in the case. I never thought about the powder going to far fwd but it totally makes sense. another factor to be aware of as a reloader. thanks fc45
Thanks for the information
I just finished asking you a question about this and found you had a good video for it! My load will be 45-70 and I have Varget which is supposed to be very slow. Thank you!
Varget is a medium burning powder falling in between imr 4320 and imr 4064 slow powders are more like h4831or reloader 25.imr 3031 is the slowest powder listed in my manual for 4570. Please be careful 🙏 . I don't think varget will work for any low velocity loads, especially in a large straight wall case.
Unique is also a good choice for subsonic.
This happened to me once with 45-70 and Reloder 7. The bullet lodged in the end of the barrel, nothing blew up. When I poured the powder out it was burnt orange looking, like the flame skimmed the surface of the powder. It was a STARTING load, but a very cold day near zero degrees.
That’s not a detonation that’s a partial burn I’ve had that happen it’s common in reduced loads
Thanks FC. The loading manuals must be followed. The trial for the loader must be within that bandwidth and for that indicated projectile. Pa cross referenced new loads in three manuals if possible and started low.
A very important thing to know.
Excellent info Thanks for Posting !!
Have heard this sermon over and over again and still reloaders make this dangerous mistake.. Thank you. I'm reminded of the early days of TV where we heard: Danger, Will Robinson. Dangeer.
Had a riflesmith explain it to me . Low volume in the case allows the smokeless powder to built pressure within the case (because of the void, usually around half or less powder fill). This can cause a pressure spike within the brass cartridge before the bullet exits. (I had this happen once in an AR, my bad and not fun.) I've also built subsonic loads using polyester fill and light pistol powder loads with success. I've gotten wiser since then and don't do either one anymore. As most of you know, smokeless has the "I like pressure" thing going on. more pressure, faster burn, faster burn, more pressure. I had used a powder that had similar burn rate but took up much less volume, worked well for a few shots. Load data did not mention this powder and I thought I was clever, until the event. There is a reason some powders with similar burn rates aren't listed in the printed data and I can not afford the cost of a repeat.
I think that when the primer is ignited in a with a full powder load, the powder is ignited across the small surface area of the case with the flame front perpendicular to the case. Small surface area = small ignition area resulting in a slower pressure build up. When the case isn’t filled relatively full, the powder is spread out over the length of the case. When ignited the flame front is spread out over the total surface area of the spread out powder. This results in faster burning and higher pressures.
This is an area of reloading I am most fascinated with. Or, maybe frustrated is a better word. haha Thanks for posting this, you've made sense of a topic that really confuses me sometimes.
+Don Eime -- It's like those who load H110 powder and try reduced loads getting lots of squibs and tons of unburned powder. Some powders do not do well loaded at 1/2 load density. With H110, not disastrous, but with slow burners in rifles could be catastrophic. And one gun writer hates to use small charges of fast burning pistol powder because of the rare detonation events (the thought is that the small powder charge lies at the bottom of the case and the primer flame goes over the top igniting it all at once creating high overpressure) - he loads his target ammo with Unique 1) fluffier powder and 2) safer burning characteristics. Whether detonation actually happens or those events were double charges one cannot say...therefore, I have no problem using fast powders in my 38 target loads... Best to ya, Don - Have a great day
Very helpful! Since I want to take advantage of the ideal sectional density of 165 gr .30 cal bullets for deer, I am wanting to work up a .30-06 reduced load for a 165 gr jacketed bullet for hunting whitetail at less than 100 yards, but all of the starting loads for the usual powders produce muzzle velocities that I consider too high. I have some older reloading manuals that offer reduced loads for jacketed bullets but using powders that are no longer made. I'm not trying to go subsonic, but I want reduced recoil while maintaining a terminal velocity that guarantees good penetration and bullet expansion. (I think I'll just use .30-30 muzzle velocities for my 165 gr bullet.) I have a Lyman cast bullet guide from about ten years ago, and I now think that I can find a very safe starting load using a fast-burning powder. It also surprised me that there's little information out there for working up reduced loads, and as you pointed out, going low with slow-burning powders is a risky business. Back in the 1970's my father worked out a reduced load for .30-06 that could actually be used for rabbit. As I remember it, he used a faster powder and a cellulose filler to keep the powder up against the primer.
Hogden manual.. I think it's on line... as well the lee
Ppl seem so scared of reloading from everything I’ve seen it’s a myth this reduced powder load. Why can’t anyone duplicate it? U know how many ppl have warn me about loading blackpowder in modern guns saying they’ll blow up and they can’t find load data for it. !! You’ll hear more garbage talking reloading than u will politics!!
I like Hornady's reloading app (on my phone), because it specifies lower min velocities than most. For 165gr 30-06, that means 2400 fps for many powders. Or just use H4895 - it's ok (per HOdgdon) down to 60% of a max load.
Great information. I never tried going below minimum load data more than 10%.
+Mr. Tolly (AKA: fatmantolly) -- When reloading manuals publish starting loads, they've taken all the safety issues into consideration so that we do not have to further cut the powder charges to begin. Additionally, when I see a broad range between the starting loads and the maximum loads, I usually take a midpoint to start my load testing - this save time and wasted components because the best shooting load is usually 1-2 grains under maximum. I just want to creep up on that point for the safety, caution and prudency we all want. Why do I do this? Because, as a rule, factory hunting ammo is very competitive and loaded hot - I often see flattened primers even some minor cratering of the primer indents in once fired brass at the range. Only when the ammo is marked target or cowboy is this not so. You can bet the ammo is also loaded to safe pressures as well. So I'm not going to work up my own loads using the minimum published loads to start my load testing - I want to get to my pet loads judiciously - spinning my wheels getting nowhere fast is not in the plan... Good shootin' to ya!!
Thank you for making this video.
Thanks for sharing this info.
RR - And thanks to you for taking the time to post...Have a great day, FC Steve
Very good reminder!!!
+dowdawg -- and we do need those every now and then... Have a great day
Grate information thanks
Great video. 4759 is an outstanding reduced load powder although it it can't be as reduced as Unique, Red Dot and other similar fast burning powders. Stick to the reloading manuals when in doubt! I am blessed to belong to a gun club with members who have 30-years experience reloading cast bullets. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge at my club.
+Tonsofgunsoffun -- Thanks for posting that -- and to benefit the newer shooters of today and maximize their safety and satisfaction, is something that we, who have access to important information, should pass on... Have a great day
In some calibers a reduced load has had a filler placed on top of the powder load to take up that space, and make it safe to shoot without ending up with essentially a mini pipe bomb.
very good, explained it well, made sense to me thanks
Great video bloke
Thankyou
Hornady's Handbook of reloading tenth edition has this very warning on page 84.
Yep read about this years ago, cowboy action shooters have had this happen trying to make reduced loads for easier fast shooting. Seen different theories about it but they agree it happens and I've seen the pistols aftermath pictures. Very good information to share.
+TRprepper --There have always been the rare Kaboom events with small charges of powder even in pistol ammo. The labs called them detonation events. That was the reason many reloaders doing light loads insist upon using Unique as 1) if fills the case better with small charges and 2) the burn rate is safer. Also, the coming of Trail Boss powder was specifically for that issue (powder named to be attractive to the cowboy action crowd). Very fluffly to fill a big case like the 45 Colt or 45/70, no way to double charge, and pressure levels very conducive to safety. Note - some of the cowboy shooters went with smaller shorter cases like the Schofield case just to make the powder space less of an issue. 38 Special cases with small charges of Unique also was the way to go. Thanks for the post, and good shootin' to ya!!
+FortuneCookie45LC I can see the logic in using a shorter case in the Colt 45 as the case, designed for black powder is obviously way to big in capacity to happily house our modern Nitro powders,( I use a foam over powder when I load Nitro), the thing I cannot understand about using the shorter brass is that for every 1/8" less in case length, the projectile has to jump that much further to reach the rifling, a thing that is a real no no in a rifle, are they accurate? We need you to experiment with this combination!
+Englishman French -- Ideally, we'd have shorter cylinders to minimize the jump...With current revolver setups, the loss of accuracy from the jump is balanced by the improved burn from a more advantageous loading density so the accuracy is still more than acceptable. Our handguns are mostly good for 6 MOA so that is why we are OK with this. Our rifles, we want sub 1 MOA so the bullet seating depth has a significant bearing. Even then, we shooters have experienced best accuracy at .009" off the lands and even more in some cases. Bullet jump may not be as big a factor as we have always thought. My Davis PPC comp gun (148 grain HBWC ammo) has an exceeding amount of bullet jump, but Bill Davis didn't bother to grind the cylinder shorter - the gun shoots 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards. Best Regards to ya..!!
+FortuneCookie45LC .009" ! You have now inspired me to try setting back from the rifling on my G, Gibbs Farqharson, that is throated for the 215Gr bullet, (303), and it is impossible to seat a 175 gr bullet out far enough to touch the rifling, especially with a boat tail.
+Englishman French -- When we were varmint hunting, we used to call that condition = freebore. Keeps the pressures down so a little extra powder could be added to the charge with increased velocity - good for blowing up the little critters at distance. My shooting buddy had a custom heavy barrel 270 and loaded his 90 grain bullet ammo 1 grain over maximum because of the freebore in his rifle. He seated his bullets out a little farther and still had extra bullet jump. Good shootin' to ya with those 175s...
this some what amazing I have never heard of this. I do know loading for a suppressed weapon we always go to a pistol powder. The 300 Blk was designed to work with pistol powder even at super sonic speeds. Reading the comments I too agree the only way one would see this issue is for competitive cowboy shoots. I have stared practicing for 3 gun and tried a lower velocity bullet however I ran into issues with timing and being used to recoil to the point I just went back to normal max loads. I also have seen a power factor in points and have started practicing with .40 just for this. Some of the competitive shooters are also going to a larger caliber for the power factor in points which I find interesting.
+MadSativa -- And many contemporary shooters have also not heard of this phenomenon of shooting. But these Kabooms can happen just as easily today as any time in the past - same powders, same barrel steels etc. You can always spot these events - the rifles blow up with the epicenter at the chambers - not the barrels. It is the cartridge case that is the bomb from reduced loads. The popularity of the 300 BLK subsonic concept may make duplication in other calibers attractive. And as you brought out, the temptation of shooting cowboy action with reduced loads commonly done can lead to trouble with slow burning powders. When we did IPSC, we were always pushing upwards on getting to Major Power so these events were moot. Safe and good shootin' to ya...
Good video, at least someone takes the time to notice most detail. I saw one problem though with what you're teching people like Sith Yarael for instance. You pointed to your reloading manual and said these are all slow burning powders, but in reality only some listed in those books were. Yes IMR 4895 is actually a belted magnum powder charge that burns very slow, and IMR 4350 is a medium to slow burn rate. Yet the IMR 4064 and definitely 3031 that I saw in some of those lists you pointed at are actually very quick burning powders and are actually suppose to only be used with lighter bullets no matter the caliber because they just don't perform as good for heavier bullets because they burn too fast and don't build up the correct head space before complete discharge of the bullet. So yes good to show safety, but make sure of which powders are which when teaching young pups of the reloading world. All in all I liked your video though, got my thumbs up. Thanks
+JJ 032 Sorry I meant head pressure not head space lol, my mind automatically thinks head space right now because I'm about to rebarrel my 30-06.
Thanks for the very important notice !
+arno maas -- And thank you for posting... this is not new information, however, it has not been mentioned in quite a while. In some places like RUclips or in a fair number of reloading manuals, it has not been mentioned at all. Have a great day!!
FortuneCookie45LC Once more we have a confirmation of how useful it is to watch videos from the top youtube reloading / technical channel , thank you FortuneCookie45LC for your advices and information !
+arno maas -- Thank you for your kind words...However, if the technical aspects of reloading and bullet casting were being stressed - few would want to follow all that (I have some books that are that way, and I'd start reading, but then just put the books away) - shooters and casters want information on what would work well for them and allow safety at the same time...Shooting is supposed to be fun, uplifting, invigorating, the soaring and the calming of the spirit, information that we can relish or contemplate or take and run with in our own speed and manner, or reject because our fingers or hand or mind doesn't work that way, or we don't want to spend the money at this time, or no-go because our own experience has been the contrary. It's all good, and we will all continue to learn together...that is the premise of the Hot Lead Zone... Be well always, arno maass - you are good folks!!
Totaly new to me!!! Thanks for info...
+Enzaie - I'm glad to be able to get this message out... Have a great day
But you're message is confused!
Excellent! A+ brotha!!
+jiujitsu2000 -- Thanks to you, friend jiujitsu2000!! -- much appreciated...
H4895 is the only approved Hodgdon powder for reduced loads. I also use titegroup to reduce 30-06 and many other rifles. Lots of data on Hodgdon website. Thanks for sharing!
JD - Good shootin' to ya in 2018, John....Happy New Year to ya, FC Steve
When making martini henry rounds with black powder. It’s very important that you do not leave any air spaces. You must use filler to pack the airspace. I wonder if you could use this technique along with faster powders. ??
I used Blackhorn 209 in a 45-70 at a reduced charge and filled the air space with corn grits like the old timers. It works
I see others have commented that IMR 4895 can be used safely for reduced loads. I never go more than about 5-10% below the starting load though.
Before WW2 reduced loads and data were common. Reason being there was 1 rifle in the family and dad used it for big game and Jr got to shoot small game with the same rifle. I shoot 308, 300 & 250 Savage, 22-250 with reduced loads as well as 45 colt and 357 mag
good information!
Great topic. Trailboss seems like a great pick as well. Hodgdon put out a document to figure out loading for rifle. fill a case to where the base of the bullet sits and that will be the max. 70% of that weight will be min loading.
+Neil Harris -- Trail Boss is a great powder for the reduced load fans. It is the powder that we would least get into problems with. I don''t use TB powder because I'm really into shooting with +P loads and light magnums - can't get there with TB powder. Good shootin' to ya...
I've been using Trail Boss for nice shooting loads in my .45-70 for when I want to dial it back to non-shoulder-crushing loads. Don't compress it, and it's good to go.
+JunkfoodZombie -- Trail Boss is a fine powder - practically foolproof for mild to standard loads... Have a great Tennessee day, Jim...!!
+FortuneCookie45LC And a fine day to you as well!
Read about this year's ago with pistol loads as well. Mainly I think they were cowboy action shooting and large cases and very low charges.
Hello, Very good channel!
For your information, there are French books on the subject of reduced loads. There are also French RUclips channels talking about. The solution is to use fast burning powders and also Kapok to maintain powder close to the primer. I do this with 30.30 reduced reloading datas and it's perfect, even subsonic.
Being recoil sensative , I tend to load all my rifles less than minimum. I reduce by 5-10 % ile . I reloaded my M1 carbine ( 1944 ) to 7.5 gr of BlueDot but rifle wouldn't recycle ? So I upped it to 12 gr of IMR-4227 without any problems . Thanks for the wisdom Sir .
Thank you from a new loader
That’s why I’m happy with hpa. Quiet and clean and less dangerous. You have good information
4895 can be reduced to 60% of the max load safely but there are other issues. I'm trying to duplicate 30-30 velocities out of a 7.62x54R for use in the 44 carbine to reduce recoil. The problem I'm having is I'm using steel cases and they don't seal as good as brass and will pull away from the chamber and leak back around the case before the bullet leaves the muzzle. So reducing the load didn't work. I tried reducing the original russian surplus load from 48 grains down to 40 grains and it leaked really bad around the case. It might work with a brass case but I haven't tried that yet. So far no luck with steel cases. If you've been successful in doing something like that with steel cases let me know what load you're using.
I read on the Hodgdon site a powder like H4895 or an equivalent the formula for reduced loads was go to the max load and multiply by .6 . example 46gr x .6= 27.6 it's worked for me with cast bullets.
Mr P.N.Z. - Yes on that for sure. But most slow burning powders have danger using loads in the 50% range. Others have commented on H4895 being OK. Certainly, if Hodgdon clears a powder, that's good information for us... Perhaps the best is to go with published data - we're always good with that - so powders like Red Dot and Unique in Lyman reduced loads is always good. And if Hodgdon says H4895, then we are OK. But taking any arbitrary slow burning rifle powder and cutting the charge substantially under the starting charge - would seem to logically be a safe practice, but may be very dangerous. When you say equivalent powder safe to apply that formula - I would not do that unless a specific powder is cleared in print to do so. Rifles did blow up and nothing has changed. Have a great day, FC
Hogdon says that H4895 can be loaded at 60% max charge for light loads. Haven't tried it yet but I have loaded 30/30 with a 115 gr. LRN with 4.4 gr. of Win231 with good success.
+Soulman1282 -- Hodgdon 4895 is the original surplus small arms (30/06) powder of the US military - and Bruce Hodgdon started his powder empire with that and 4831 (surplus 20mm cannon powder). Yes, 4895 has been shown to be OK with 60% charges. But that is not true with other powders in the same slow burning range. Faster powders like W231 are OK for reduced loadings in big cases. Good shootin' to ya, FC
I use slightly reduced loadings of H4895 in my H&R Shikari .45/70 single shot rifle, but I don't reduce them more than maybe 10% under the starting load
Flash over has and will always a problem in the brains missing Vidal fill . Has always fascinated me and very careful with myself anytime I'm thinking I've got this . Sometimes even the most intelligent have problems with overloads . Thanks be
Looking to use trail boss in a 30-40 krag cartridge with a 165 grain hard cast lead bullet. My Lyman manual tells 8-8.5 grains for 30-30. They don’t list tb for the 30-40 but I would think 10 grains would work and fills the casing about 75-80% of the starting amount of 4831sc. I’ve also seen people on forums saying tb 9-11 grains will work for 30-40. Can anyone think of something I might be over looking?
Well. This explains why I was getting 100FPS jumps with 4895 below 1100FPS on the reg. Good to know because I couldn’t figure it out and gave up on the project
Sage advice... extremely fast pistol powders also have a known history of unpredictable outcomes. People used to use Dacron fiber to fill case, tamp or hold powder at the bottom of the cartridge near flash hole.
This doesn't seem to match the experience and advice of Mr. Kekkonen, who suggested to use fastest burning and easiest igniting pistol powders for reduced and subsonic loads.
It doesn’t match my own experience either. I’ve used charges as light as 4.5 gr of fast burning pistol powder in 223. A match shooter (and local legend) shared with me that he shot a 338 Lapua with light charges of 4350 and it performed well.
The key IMO is to keep the rate of pressure rise high enough to ensure stability. A light charge can do this if the powder is fast enough burning.
Lee's 2nd edition has a discussion of this, and a sort of formula for keeping a wide margin away from the danger zone. It is relative to the powder's position on the burn rate chart and how much you can safely reduce the load. The multipliers for working a load backwards are only for medium to fast rifle powders. I like that much better than the lyman system since it is all relative to pressure, not just velocity.
+GunFun ZS --- I think I first learned about this when I was reloading for my 25/06 using Norma 205 powder many years ago - do not reduce loads - that message always stuck. Best Regards to ya..!!
FortuneCookie45LC For the loads given with a multiplier for reduction, you aren't really reducing below the recipe range. You are following the book data on how to keep safe, and can predict probable velocities and pressures. Going way low with slow powders and large case volumes is risky, especially with double base powders, but that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about sticking to the ones that are known safe.
+GunFun ZS -- Sounds like that article is a must read... Best Regards to ya!!
Cookie - Mr. Lee covers the subject at length in his book. I tend to favor Ed Harris' approach, which Mr. Lee disagrees with in general as he states in his book. It's not always about getting maximum velocity or gilt edge accuracy. Sometimes it's just about hitting what you are shooting at. If I can do that with 10 or 12 grains of gunpowder rather than 40 or 45 grains of gunpowder that's a big savings in components, which means I get to shoot more for my dollar. Just a thought. Enjoyed the video - as always. Keep 'em coming.
+Michael Mcilwain -- Great points - Also the reason the 223 is the most popular rifle round in America. And with our 30s, burning 10-12 grains of powder is actually enjoyable!! Have a great day
Wow, thanks!!
Thanks for the inputs in this vid.
A question; is there any info on lead/casted bullets around 250gr in the Lyman for the 3,66bullets //9,3x62 ?
May I suggest that problems can be easily avoided by using an inert filler, such as cotton wool, on top of the powder. Simples!
Agreed, a little bit of Dacron will suspend the powder and prevent shifting.
That idea was only to position faster burning powders. Don't reduce charges of slow burning powders. Just get the proper powder. For God's sake people, get a reloading manual and READ the entire thing.!!!
There were a lot of people that I knew that I told not to reload. They didn't have the intelligence or the attention span. The best was the guy that actually counted 53 grains as in kernels of 4831 for his 270,telling me it didn't look like enough powder. Internet trolling is a good place to find bad advice and I'm sure it will prove to be a Darwinian experience for some of the uninitiated.
NOOOOO!!!!!
IF YOU WANT TO EXPERIMENT, BUY A BENCH RIFLE AND A REMOTE TRIGGER.
Look guys, don't vary from the manual. Kapok was recommended for very small loads in a large case. Usually a fast burning powder.
I was thinking of cornmeal, but cotton would avoid any problems with mixing like reduced burn rate.
I like H4895 which can be loaded to 60% of max.
The rule of thumb for reloading for bottleneck cartridges is never go lower than 70% fill.
Some of the famous gun writers wrote of this problem years ago, as I recall Hodgdon denied it was possible, but have heard of many examples of it happening ,
Thank you.
It's the primer that unseats the projectile and jambs it into the lands just like a squib load. Millisecond later the slow powder catches up and is now in a plugged chamber.
I thought the marked minimum is to ensure that the case expands to create a proper seal. I did some experimenting with light bullets & loads and especially with Mosin it will blow gases straight at your face when there is not enough pressure.
+Spörde Spyrdenstein - That's a light load indeed. Like everything in shooting, there are degrees. Whenever I shoot light bullets or light powder charges, I look for powder fouling on the cases - if there is that, incomplete chamber obturation is indicated. That's never a good idea even if powder gases were not heading back your way - that's major lack of chamber obturation. I like your idea of the "marked minimum" - that's a good one!! Best Regards - FC
Thank you!
+Ray karl -- And thank you for taking the time to post...Best Regards FC
Thanks for making this Video!
Does this also apply to intermediate cases like 7.62x39? Great info you put out there!
I’ve loaded a ton or reduced load subs for x39 why can’t anyone reproduce this phenomenon? I believe it’s a myth. Is it possible Maby but it’d take forever to get it to happen. You’d have to find the slowest powders most unstable and try shooting straight down forever. I think personally ppl made a accidental double charge of cheap fast burning pistol powder and blamed this myth. The cheapest powder to use is hot pistol powder so ppl light load it a lot, and one day they accidentally double or triple load it and bam 💥 oh it was a light load !! Wasn’t my fault!!!
I was wondering what about some of the loads listed with the lee loaders? If i recall especially with the new yellow dippers they are smaller (less) powder then the listed starting loads in the larger book manuals.
I haven't tried using reduced loads in a rifle. With the case the size of a 30-06 and a reduced load of pistol powder have you ever used a filler on top of the powder to keep it against the primer? I remember an old Guns &Ammo article from the late 70s maybe early 80s were the author used some fiber filler in some reduce revolver loads. Anyway, your video was excellent advice for those considering reduced loads...
+Bob Kopchik Air space in large cartridges is a real problem for shooters of Nitro Express calibers, a 577Nitro Express even with 120 grs in it is only very lightly filled volume wise, not so much of a problem with the tiny 30-06, but still a potential problem with reduced loads, my solution is to fill the empty space with a foam filler wad, this keeps the charge in one place, whatever the angle it is held at, with a small charge laying along the bottom of the case, on firing the flash of the primer passes over the top of the charge, igniting it along a broad front, at different rates according to the angle it is held at. There have been lots of experiments trying to duplicate these "blow ups", but none have really proven to duplicate the condition at will, a very good paper on the subject of fillers is the Double Gun Journal, (Summer 2011), where the use of fillers was explored in great depth. If you look at the Colt 45 case, that too has a huge air space when loaded with Nitro powder. Please take great care when you see less than 80% of the case filled!
+Bob Kopchik -- The use of polyfill to keep small charges of powder against the primer using pistol powders in fairly large volume rifle cases, is a good idea. Doesn't take much and it is easy to do...Using it with reduced charge of slow burning powder is still not a good idea because of the slower ignition of that powder giving time for the charge to move to front of case and solidify there. Safe shootin' to ya!!
+Englishman French -- Always good to hear from Englishman French!! The lower the loading density, the more fillers are needed. I like your less than 80% rule... Have a great day
Good safety video!
+Martellus -- And thanks to you for taking the time to post - have a great day!!
Thank you
Thanks for pointing this out. I am a new reloader & was thinking of going to a reduced charge round for my under 150 yrd shoots. So give me something to think hard about. One question do you only do this with cast bullets?
John K - H4895 - the prototypical 30 cal US military powder is OK in reduced loads according to Hodgdon...Please see MrPNZ comment below - but that has not been cleared for the other slower burning rifle powders... Good shootin' to ya, FC
I am also looking and doing 30-30 Winchester reloads with Red Dot powder. I looked in my Lyman cast manual 4th edition and they do not have a load for Red Dot. I found a website than did do a work up with 6.0 to 8.5 grain charge of red dot with a 170 gr. plain base bullet. Should I use some kind of filler in the case and if so what should you use and where can you buy it. I very much appreciate your videos, and always enjoy your knowledge you provide me as I have only been reloading for a few years. Thanks
spitzley2001 - Red Dot is fine for reduced loads in rifles including the 30/30. That is because it is not a slow burn rifle powder, but rather a fast burn shotgun or pistol powder very safe and useful for reduced loads in rifles...Unique is another powder good for that. Of course, published loads are the way to go. Best Regards, FC
Do I need a filler with red dot in 30-30
spitzley2001 - You could put in some fiberfill to hold the powder, but fillers are usually not necessary until you get into the real big cases like the 45/70. Doesn't mean you can't do it though, but just a 1" square of fiberfill is all that is needed, as you know... Best to ya, FC
Not that I would ever recommend reduced loading a slow-burning powder as there are so many choices (or were) of powders but in saying that I can see in these days where there might be the desire to do so with components hard to find. To the point, I just don't know if I buy it; the blown-up guns may have been double charged rounds or the latter of your explanation; where there is sort of a hang fire; partial ignition pushes the bullet out of the case and into the rifling (where all peak pressure is built) then the rest of the powder goes off with bullet jammed. Better on the safe side.
Hi, hope you guys are well. Im new in casting bullets but need to get more info on lead hardness. I have purchased a block of lead which I don't know the harness off. What can happen if I cast bullets with too soft lead on .308 . I want to quench with cast and powdercoat afterwards. Does this increase the strength enough of the bullet? Will a soft lead powder coated bullet be safe too shoot in 308?
Thank you
What this does is a unchecked pressure curve, and it increases before the bullit leaves the barrel.
That's why you use medium-burning pistol/shotgun powders. Whatever happened to Blue Dot?
How is it that when I break apart factory rifle loads in 223/556, I find 13 to 15-grain powder loads but I can't find a commercially available powder rated for that charge weight?
How could you have not heard about that danger.
nice vid but you indicated it for heavy bullets. there are also published data on light bullets, ae: "gallery loads" as well as the m22 frangible which weighs in at 108 grs. now i haven't tried any of the "gallery loads" and i have tried the M22 load using 11 gr of IMR SR 4759 in my 30'06 without any problems. the M22 frangible is still available out there but, you must remember, it's not a "jacketed" ot "lead" bullet. good for 100 meters or 117 yards with some accuracy.
+Nadien Sans -- IMR 4759 is a very good fast rifle powder in the same class as the 4227s. Fast rifle powders and pistol powders do well for reduced loadings in our rifles. It's the slow powders like 4831, Varget, H414, Reloader 15 etc that can have major problems if loaded reduced. Good shootin' to ya!!
As he said it’s apparently never been duplicated. I’ve shot a majority of reduced loads also at down hill conditions . I sometimes will get a inconsistent burn but never anything seemingly hot. I’m not so sure this actually happens. I think ppl have blamed it for switched powders or overcharge etc. has it ever happened Maby but why can’t it be duplicated by a manufacturer or apparently me. Who knows
I've got a reduced, (like REALLY reduced) .223 load that I chrono'ed at about the same f.p.s. as a high velocity. 22lr (think in the high 1,195 to low 1,200 range). I have never experienced any kind of pressure signs. The cases slip right out of the chamber, no flattened or cratered primers, no heavy bolt lift.
wow, glad I watched this.
Colson Customs - Thanks for your comment. It is an event that cannot be made to happen on demand, but rifle kabooms are definitely to be avoided. We do not want to load anywhere near as low as 50% loading density unless we are using fast burning shotgun powders in our reduced load rifles. Good shootin' to ya, FC
Can you use the cast bullet loads with a different type of bullet?
Filling the case as much as possible is important for accuracy in my experience. Especially if you shoot up hill/down hill or in positions not on a bench . Sub moa bench load can turn into 3-4 moa load when larping haha .
I've got Lyman load data for 6.0-7.5gr of 700-X under a 170gr cast bullet in .30-30. I'm a little apprehensive about it, and would probably use fiberfill to fill the case and keep the powder down on the primer. I'm thinking that I'll just buy a can of Trail Boss for low-velocity loads instead of fiddling with high-density pistol/shotgun powders. Pistol powder in a rifle case just sets off alarm bells for me, published load data or not. Better safe than sorry.
Headframe Hunters - No problem with that reduced load as it is not a slow burning rifle powder that is being reduced... and yes, the fiberfill would be good powder management with that small charge. Trail Boss would be another great powder to use. .Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC
What happens if you use COW to bulk up your reduced load of slow (rifle) powder?
The OLD #3 lyman cast manual is available on the interwebs. I was wondering what the heck im going to do with a bunch of Copper plated Berrys .310 123 grain. Now I can load them up in my 7.7 arisaka, 303 british, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R if only I had data for 125 grains. I guess I will experiment.
lyman 44th also available on google pdf from 1967 has some good data.
When shooting lead or powder coated bullets, the charge is usually substantially less ( # grains powder) than used for a jacketed bullet. In this case having a partially filled cartridge case is probable. This seems like it is very similar to the reduced load problem that you are talking about. What is the solution? How do you fill the case so that this doesn't happen
Richard Holt - Thanks for the good question. With cast bullet loads in our high power rifles, we do use smaller charges. The key difference is that the powders used are faster burning pistol powders like Unique or Red Dot or 2400. These are completely safe in reduced loads whether or not fillers are used. The danger of detonation or high pressures is due to 50% or less loadings of slow rifle powders. These are the ones with the problems Best is to start with published starting loads and not go below them. Have a great day, FC Steve.
What about using fillers to deal with???
+Cleber Nj -- Sorry for the late reply - Google did not post this on my inbox... fillers are useful for small charges of fast burning powder in big cases. This is a different situation - we are talking about 1/2 charges of slow powders in big cases - the fillers are not going to help prevent possible problems as the filler will just jam up against the bullet and the same potential problem of barrel obstruction could occur...If a filler is used, faster powder like Unique or Red Dot would be useful. Best Regards to ya, FC
Thank you. Bet .223 has similar results.