I have been loading subsonic 308 for a long time... Without trailboss in my country, I choosed a bulky single-based shotgun powder, with a burn rate between alliant's Red and Green Dot. It rises the pressure fast enough to expand the brass and seal the chamber (no gas cames back in my face) and also gives me a low speed variation and low standart deviation. And a double charge of this powder will not blow up my rifle! Forget slow rifle powders... Keep it for standart loads!
@@Paul-45-70, I use a brazilian made powder called "CBC #219", with 8.0gr for 144gr bullets. I belive that ANY fast and LOW DENSITY shotgun powder works! Just be extra carefull with double charges... And never use spherical double-based powders, to avoid secondary detonation. In my case, a double charge will give me about 1500fps and high pressure, but as I sad, it will not blow up my rifle!
I load 15gn of 4895 with the 190 sub x projectiles. They seem even quieter than the recommended 13.3. Ridiculous accuracy out to 75m using my cheap Ruger predator. Its the perfect load for a knock around tractor gun on our farm. Thanks for the fantastic videos.
I read about an Englishman who was developing subsonic .308 back in the 90's. He developed an accurate round at just below sonic velocities. Then, out of interest, he loaded the bullet so that it was travelling backwards out of the cartridge. He said that this loading, with the same bullet, travelling backwards and using the same powder load, now had a velocity above the speed of sound. It was supposed to be fully featured in the second part of his magazine article but I never found a copy. I think, from memory it was called Shooting Sports.
I load subsonic .308 with load data I found in the hogdon 2023 loading manual. Data suggests a 168g Sierra HPBT loaded with only 8 grains of hogdon titegroup. giving a total velocity of 1080fps and chamber pressures @ 2500 CUP. Don’t really have a use for them other than plinking around with a suppressor. which I found to be pretty fun when hitting steel is louder than the gun itself
I think the trail boss works so well because it fills the case at least more than half. Meaning that the powder is more or less consistently laying in the cartridge every time you shoot it. Other powders don’t fill the case and so the powder could be at the back of the case or the front of the case or evenly spread across the case every time you pull the trigger And you’re going to get a different ignition from the primer from shot to shot. I have been looking for trail boss for five years and have never seen it available.
I've been pondering sub loads in 308 Win recently so this was very interesting. Cartridges come and go but I have a feeling that 308 Win will still be quite popular many years from now. Thanks for the video.
I messed around with a load with the 190sub-x and 4895. I ended up dialing up the powder charge and sat the velocity at 1050. It shoots pretty well and ES improved with the added velocity, as well as the sooty mouth went away.
I had major trouble getting hold of Trail Boss powder here in NZ so instead gave some Lil Gun a nudge - it is the ducks nuts. 9.7gr of Lil Gun pushing a Hornady 190gr Sub-X projectile with Sako cases & Federal magnum primers gives me 1020fps ÷/- 9-ish fps at 350m ASL in my Ruger American Predator. No issues with lack of bulk, & they are a very handy round to have tucked away for those shots you don't want the neighbours to hear.
I actually load Sub 308 with trailboss and 190 grain Lehigh maximum expansion and it opens up over an inch in diameter and penetrates 13 inches in 20% gel and it makes the sub X look like a FMJ compared lol
@@guyminer3168 they are obviously twice the price but I was shooting them out a 22 inch barrel so even without a suppressor it's in the 22 LR range of noise
I like Trail Boss for subsonic. We have found that using magnum primers seems to make a more consistent burn especially for cases that are not full. We load a 150 grain Hornady FML/BT with 9.4 grains of trail boss for a light subsonic load. Case fill is only 69% And a 180 grain Hornady SST with 11.0 grains Trail Boss with a case fill of 90% And 190 grain Hornady Sub-X with 11.6 grains Trail Boss with a case fill of 84% Obviously the better the case fill the more consistent the burn.
I basically cloned the 168gr Winchester Suppressor Subsonic with 168gr Hornady ELD-M bullets, 10gr of Trail Boss and a light crimp. It still stays subsonic in subzero temps for me and I figured out my DOPE and can still hit a target consistently at 200yds but my hold is 26MOA high with my rifle zeroed for 200yds with 149gr M80 ball.
In Kalifornia, we’re forced to use non lead for hunting. Current .22lr non lead absolutely sucks. I’ve had fantastic success with Blue Dot and Hornady 35gr NTX loads in reduced .223. 9gr of blue dot gets me between 22mag and 22 hornet velocity without the noise of a full power .223. This is from a 24” Remington 700 PSS 1-12 twist. Very consistent and ground squirrels out to 200yds are in trouble. I hand trickle the charge as an extra caution. Look up a guy that goes by Seafire on 24hr campfire. He’s done a lot of testing with reduced .223 blue dot loads
Guy, try some large pistol primers with the Trail Boss. They may drop the SDs' even lower. They did in my M-70 with it's 1 in 8" twist. My barrel is 18.5" long.
I have loaded 308 subsonics with 7gr of vihtavuori n320 with 160 grain round nose bullets. They are quite accurate but tend to drop quite a bit at a 100 yards.
My preferred load in my Tikka T3X Tac A1 .308 is Lapua GB552 OTM scenar-L 155gr bullet with Vectan A0 powder. Delivers 1 minute groups at 100m and perfect for goose hunting.
I’m loading 6.5 CM subsonic with Hornady 160 gn round nose Interlock with Trailboss. My CM has a 7 twist. Works great. And of course .300 BO with berrys and A1680. Would love to have a prefit .300 BO for my savage action.
Great topic and fun to shoot subs. 450 Bushmaster, 395 Hornady sub x, Trail Boss and Rem 7 1/2 primer. Very good results from bolt action rifle (not sure if it'll cycle a semi). Since subsonic is limited velocity the only way to get more power is bullet weight. The 450 creates 1000 ft lbs at the muzzle so much like a 44 Mag.
Smarter everyday did the 2 bullets video where they shot reduced loads and found the lower powder inconsistency problem just like you had. It played havoc with their speeds and point of impact.
Shoot without the suppressor at first to avoid possible keyholing. Drill out the flash holes a tad. Use some quality large rifle magnum primers. Lube up those projectiles with some bacon grease. Make sure the first rounds actually leave the barrel to avoid embarrassment at the dinner table. Enjoy!
.223 subsonic. 60gr hard cast with gas check. 3.5gr TrailBoss. CCI small rifle primer. 1060fps. Far surpasses .22lr at longer range "200 yards" on drop and energy. Don't let anyone tell you it's just a .22lr when loading subsonic .223 ! Heavy crimp helps also.
@@elplebon45have you verified this with the 8.0 grain load published by Hodgdon? I just tried that from a 20" Barrel and they were hitting the target sideways. I may need to bump the charge slightly.
Really cool to see this type of interesting niche info. This is right up there with sub 223. Of course they're terrible at most things, but there's a few specific applications where this is exactly the right move. Super cool to see...
Like what? You do know a .223 isn't that much larger then a .22 right? What gives the .223 the advantage is the exact thing you take away if you go subsonic. Therefore the ammo and gun are heavier but serving no purpose to any application.
@@Drak976Having the ability to reload and experiment is a hobby for many to see the results . You known, sometimes you feel like a nut , sometimes you don’t . 😀
@@Drak976Here is the advantage: I load .223 subsonic with trailboss and 62 gr hollow point bullets. This combination is only used for close up shots at small varmints like racoons around our hog feeders. Also, the rifle is a Ruger bolt action with a can and a thermal scope. So with a quick magazine change and switching shot profile on the scope, I can go from subsonic .223 HP to supersonic .223 HP in a few seconds. All done with the same gun in the middle of a field in the dark. The supersonic rounds are very effective at killing hogs while the subsonic works great and is extremely quiet for varmints.
Always solid information well presented from you Guy. Unfortunately I just discovered the joy of Trail Boss and of course they quit making it forthwith. Have been playing with cast bullets at subsonic speeds for years. Lots of fun and a few good applications for quiet small game hunting or putting down big game when a full power load isn't required.
can use 30 carbine bullets, makes great rabbit rounds... made them for years (edited for info: 110gr round nose plated, 10grs trail boss, 2.421 COAL, 1100 fps.)
A few years ago I wanted to buy a rifle in .300BLK to shoot subsonic ammunition. However, since I have a rifle in .308Win and an excellent MP 311 - 180 SIL GC Hollow Point 3 cavity mold, with which I cast excellent bullets (which I then plastic-coat) and also have Mr. Brömel's Quick Load internal ballistics program on my computer, I tried it out a bit. My MagnetoSpeed velocity measuring device was of course indispensable. Today, I can load ammunition quite precisely, which compares well with what is shown here in the video. In Germany, hunting roe deer, wild boar or stag with it is prohibited because the bullet, which must have a diameter of at least 6.5mm, must therefore have a velocity of 1476 lbs. at 100m. But it's great fun to shoot and I didn't buy a .300Blk because it can't do anything better than my .308Win.
300 black out I sub x and steel ram powder awesome load for ground hogs quiet as mouse farther with hyperion and cva scout tried the all copper subsonic bullets and they aren't to swift shoot good but like all copper bullets they have a hard time killing instantly even ground hogs they will run from 80 percent of the body shots even with the 194 fracturing bullet but the sub x really thumps when it hits em super accurate I shot ground hogs out to 160 with some Kentucky windage best thing is they don't know your shooting at em till you hit to close or there dead lol
Loading 30-06 with 100 gr speer to 1500 fps. Talk about no recoil😂 More accurate than expected. Good way to take out the 30-06 and just plink and have fun
I have been loading 308 with Trail Boss for a few years now. I use it for wild hog bunting. But I have not been able to find any Trail Boss for a couple of years now. I was really hoping they would start making it again but so far nothing.
My favorite and cheap sub load, .223, 55 gr SP, 3.1-3.2 gr of TiteGroup. Stupid quiet in .30 cal can on a Ruger Ranch Rifle(16"). Stand a few feet from a empty aluminum can, pull the trigger and the can doesn't move, just a clean hole through. Great for young shooters.
I coincidently am doing a similar project. Just had a shaw 16.25" in 1:8 put on my old Rem 788. Also just went to range this morning testing IMR4895 at 13.6, 13.3, 13.0. My SD's were all in to 20s as well and had one in each 5 round group come up much lower than rest. Ended up with 1022, 1018 and 928 FPS avg.
Well, after watching this video, I did some testing myself, inspiration for my daughter to go deer hunting, then Dad the handloader, got to work. BENCHMARK was the powder I found. other powders listed were not available I got some really nice tight groups at 50 yards BENCHMARK 13.4 start load, Best performance in the gel block had 22-24 inches of penetration, 1100 fps Average, with a charge if 16.8 grains, and using a gas gun with an 18 inch barrel
Check the AR the second edition AR reloading handbook it has subsonic data for 300 black and 308. if you look it up trail Boss has a PDF that explains that has all their load data from 223 I've seen it all the way up to 4570.
We've used Trail Boss in several different cartridges, including the 45-70, just haven't published all of our work with it yet. I sure hope it returns to the shelf eventually. It's too good a powder to lose. There are of course alternatives.
Tried some data I had from hodgdon years ago, Titegroup, didn't have a chronograph at the time, had a Mil Dot scope, 100 yards believe i had to come up 2.5 mil dots, to impact 100 yards center
Not sure if there is enough ass for deer with subs im sure it would pass thru but probably not a great option definitely gonna try it this year and I bought a bunch of junk Barnes cheap on midway pulled bullets and used primed 300 blackout cases they are cheap and working great
I made some after seeing people shoot pigs/hogs with 308 subs. With no crack it doesn't scare away the herd so you get more shots at them. I couldn't get trail boss so used Unique with the poly stuff you get in pillows to fill the case which burns up on firing. I made some with different grains and tested them from high to low till the crack was gone, from memory it was 8 grains which was the winner. In an 18 inch barrel. The barrel has a10 twist and all made a normal hole not sideways through the target at 100.
I trying to load some subsonic 308. However, I have been unable to locate the powders mentioned. I was able to locate some Benchmark which Hodgdon had load data for with that round. Unfortunately the 13.4 grains that they had is definitely not subsonic. Without a chronograph I’m not sure how low to go. Suggestions??
I have always loaded subs opposite high pressure loads. Start high and work down to 1050 FPS. You reduce the chance of sticking a bullet in your barrel. Also don't do load work up with the suppressor on, or you could tumble a projectile through your baffles. Trail boss is the way to go. Fill it to the neck and start working down. I load a bunch for the kids and fragile men, run 1600-1800 FPS 150 gr using trail boss, very gentle.
I got lucky and snapped up two big containers of trail boss, currently shooting .308 8 twist, 194 Lehigh over 13.6g TB for 1060fps, using Redding dry lube and a neck expanding die gets my SDs into single digits, a lot of brass prep and measuring but a lot of fun too
When adding a suppressor to a rifle that already has a good,safe,accurate load, is it necessary to start over on load development? Just wondering if the suppressor changes pressure or accuracy. Great videos!
Wondered if I could load up some .223 sub loads for close quarter fox around sensitive areas. Got me thinking now. Great results with the trail boss by the way.
You should try Vihtavuori n32c.... Allmost as bulky as TB, but much cleaner burning and extremely consistent performance..!! By far the best powder for subs, that I have EVER used.... 👍👍👍👍👍
I've been loading the Sub-X in .308 175 gr. bullets. It takes 11.4 grs of Trail Boss to get around 1050fps, which is considerably more than the 10.5 grs used here for the heavier 190 gr Sub-X. I'm not sure how to explain this, except my rifle has a 22 in barrel and 1:10 twist. I might try the 190 gr, but without the suppressor until I can verify stability. I wonder how much Trail Boss powder it will take. All of the various loads I have tried are extremely temperature sensitive (both air temp and barrel temp).
I worked up a load for my 30-30 using Titegroup and 135 grain coated bullets. 1000 fps, spread was less than 30 fps (and I tried tipping the rifle up then down before firing, Titegroup is position-insensitive). It would be possible to put six of the charge weight I settled on, ya gotta be careful.
I haven't used the ammo you mentioned - do you know the bullet weight and velocity? We can try! It's pretty easy to load the 308 Win down to be quite mild-mannered.
@@guyminer3168 so far, but my powder choice wasn't great for consistency and I had to clean after 3 shots. I'm picking up a slightly slower powder, HS-6 tomorrow to test.
@@guyminer3168 Just back from the range after testing with HS-6 and that is the powder for this combination. Perfect burn full barrel length with the 16.5" barrel and had no bullets dropping from soot slowing them. I shot 3 groups and all were about an inch and I was just shooting off a bipod without bags etc. The full recipe I used is a Starline .308 Winchester match case with small rifle primer, Winchester small rifle primer, 7.9 gr. of Hodgdon HS-6 was perfect in my gun (your results may vary). I'm shooting it out of a Mossberg MVP Patrol rifle with a 16.5" threaded barrel and topped with a 1-4X24 LPVO. According to quickload, it should be going about 1104 fps in the 16.5" barrel. Unfortunately, due to time, I didn't get to set up the Chronygraph so I couldn't confirm what it produced with my rifle, but they did stay subsonic due to no crack. I'm hoping to get back to the range and test these on some water jugs and also at ranges out to 150, but we'll see. By the calculations at JBM, these should have an MPBR of 140 yards, so great deer loads with the sound of a pellet rifle going off. ;) Looking forward to testing them on a whitetail this fall possibly also. I tested them with and without the my suppressor and the addition of the suppressor only shifted impact by about 1" up and 1" left, so nothing too concerning for removing the suppressor and still being able to hit with them. Next trip I'll be testing them in the AR-10 also, since the burn is full barrel, with the adjustable gas block, I may be able to dial it in to still cycle the action. I'm thinking I'll really like this load. 8)
I just did a test [1/11-2024] with the Sub-X 175gr in my Tikka 308, using around 6.8-7.0gr of Titegroup [Max @ 8.5gr on Hodgdon's website]. Yes, it has a bullet drop like a 22LR [around 16.0" @ 100 yds per BC], and a recoil level of the same. I find it to be a very good training round for working holdover etc. and Zero wind impact vs. the 22LR Got around a 1/2" group over 2x5 shoots @ 50yds, with fps range of 1065 - 107 fps w. a SD @ 11.0. My normal Zero are for 200yds w. 150gr FMJ_BT @ 2800fps, so I had to adjustment for the drop delta for + 4.0" [0.5' vs. 4.5"] @ the 50yd line., and it will be over +12" delta @ 100 yds ..................which will be at the next range visit I use Lapua cases, the CCI or Winchester Large Rifle Primers in my stainless 20" Tikka_CTR
The 44 and other conventional handgun rounds are easy to load subsonic, they're close already! Heavier bullets are helpful, but the loads have been developed. We don't happen to have a 44 levergun here at UR, yet. The 357 Henry we do have is a hoot with 38 Special ammo - most of which is subsonic even in factory ammo.
Mmm...I normally run a 12-60x60, with SAKO TRG Precision 168gr at 2657fps in a stock Tikka T3x TAC A1 for 600 yard bench (deliberate decision to create a baseline), so from the outset this video has my interest for deer stalking from a high seat/doe box using the same rifle suppressed...
I've been loading 225gr subs for 308 ar10 with h4895 for a few years now. Just came across Hodgdon's subsonic load data and am going to try accurate 5744 since h4895 is becoming so hard to find. Couldn't get my semi to cycle with Trail boss.
The powder companies recommend that the Trail boss should fill the case at least 70%. With the slower burning powders the use of some sort of filler or packer (to keep the powder charge back against the primer) is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED, especially if you are likely to be shooting slightly down-hill. However, the use of a packer can cause problems if you have a suppressor fitted to the rifle. I am surprised that -for serious liability reasons - this was not mentioned in the video. Hence, for 308win sized cartridges it's best to stick with trail boss for your subsonic loads, and used proper dedicated subsonic bullets like Lehigh Defense for best performance, and also to minimise the chance of them sticking in the bore.
I get better results with much lower pressures by using reduced charges of 4895 rather than tiny loadings of high pressure Titegroup or Titewad. Trail boss is ok, just very dirty. What have y’all observed?
This ammo is for folks who have a 308 and want to shoot some subsonic through it. Like me! It's been done long before the 300 blk was a thing. If you've already got a 300 blk, you're good to go!
I'd be interested to see how a bulkier powder that burns more slowly might produce more consistency in speed and accuracy. How about Pyrodex or triple 7? Might be interesting to see.
I'm going to go back and work some more on that H4895 load... I think it can do much better with a little more powder. We shall see. I sure hope Trail Boss shows up again someday, it's good stuff for some applications.
USA has some weird gun regulations... a combination of extreme accessibility and extreme restrictions. What has the barrel length or overall gun length to do with legality of a firearm? Also... I hear there are states (or maybe it is on the federal level?) where you are limited to one gun per month? I am a collector and in my country it is enough of a reason to apply for a permit, so I passed psych evaluation, background check, general physical fitness test (eyes, balance, coordination), passed a written gun law test, passed a practical safety, gun handling and accuracy test and got my first batch of 10 permission slips I could use at will at any gun store or to make a private purchase. If I find few interesting guns in one place at one tile - I can buy them. The only bother is I have to register them within 5 working days and I can't do that online. Rifles are rifles, handguns are handguns, shotguns are shotguns and nobody in the government is interested what additional grips or stock I attach, if I shorten my barrel or extend it... Hell, a classic sawn-off shotgun would be perfectly legal as long I don't damage the serial number. And when I use up my 10 permission slips I just request more (it would probably cause a visit from the local cop to see if my gun storage is sufficient but it is just an administrative procedure that will cost me about $4 per one permission slip). And things like magazines or suppressors - are non-essential gun parts and I can order them online without any legal hassle. All over the Europe (I recently ordered a spare magazine for my Tikka from Finland - it traveled from Finland to Lithuania to Germany and then finally to me in Poland... with a neat and devilishly sharp Finnish knife I ordered to get the free shipping ;) ).
I like the idea of a subsonic 308 more than a 300 BLK. Both will obviously suppress well but 308 is going to have way better options when you need to go supersonic
I thought that too until I actually did it. If you want to go subsonic, get a blackout. 308 just doesn't have enough twist for practical subsonic use and it makes Trailboss or Tin Star a must.
@@guyminer3168 if you have any better luck let us know. H4895 is easier to get than trailboss but if it’s super dirty and not all that consistent I’ll hold out for the proper stuff
You can shoot it un-suppressed. It will still be a light recoiling, mild cartridge. Fun to shoot. The barrel twist... I can't tell you that it will or will not work out. Haven't tried it from a 1:10, but Hornady recommends a much faster twist barrel.
I have been loading subsonic 308 for a long time... Without trailboss in my country, I choosed a bulky single-based shotgun powder, with a burn rate between alliant's Red and Green Dot. It rises the pressure fast enough to expand the brass and seal the chamber (no gas cames back in my face) and also gives me a low speed variation and low standart deviation. And a double charge of this powder will not blow up my rifle!
Forget slow rifle powders... Keep it for standart loads!
What powder do you use? Thanks
@@Paul-45-70, I use a brazilian made powder called "CBC #219", with 8.0gr for 144gr bullets.
I belive that ANY fast and LOW DENSITY shotgun powder works! Just be extra carefull with double charges... And never use spherical double-based powders, to avoid secondary detonation.
In my case, a double charge will give me about 1500fps and high pressure, but as I sad, it will not blow up my rifle!
@@samuel-JF1981 thank you for the reply. I’m in Australia so I’ll see if we have something like it.
@@Paul-45-70I use VV N32C With great success in my 308 together with SUB-X 190gr.
can you share your complete load data? and rifle details?
@@ahns1170
I load 15gn of 4895 with the 190 sub x projectiles. They seem even quieter than the recommended 13.3. Ridiculous accuracy out to 75m using my cheap Ruger predator. Its the perfect load for a knock around tractor gun on our farm.
Thanks for the fantastic videos.
I need to mess with that H4895 load a bit.
I love that you said “tractor gun”!
Discreet ballistics has great expanding subsonic 308 loads if anyone is looking for an off the shelf solution.
I read about an Englishman who was developing subsonic .308 back in the 90's.
He developed an accurate round at just below sonic velocities.
Then, out of interest, he loaded the bullet so that it was travelling backwards out of the cartridge. He said that this loading, with the same bullet, travelling backwards and using the same powder load, now had a velocity above the speed of sound.
It was supposed to be fully featured in the second part of his magazine article but I never found a copy. I think, from memory it was called Shooting Sports.
I think his name was Bruce Potts.
But I may be wrong.
Very informative video. The 308 Winchester's performance in a wide range of uses is something I always find interesting.
I load subsonic .308 with load data I found in the hogdon 2023 loading manual. Data suggests a 168g Sierra HPBT loaded with only 8 grains of hogdon titegroup. giving a total velocity of 1080fps and chamber pressures @ 2500 CUP. Don’t really have a use for them other than plinking around with a suppressor. which I found to be pretty fun when hitting steel is louder than the gun itself
I think the trail boss works so well because it fills the case at least more than half. Meaning that the powder is more or less consistently laying in the cartridge every time you shoot it. Other powders don’t fill the case and so the powder could be at the back of the case or the front of the case or evenly spread across the case every time you pull the trigger And you’re going to get a different ignition from the primer from shot to shot. I have been looking for trail boss for five years and have never seen it available.
Use a case filler for low charges
Cream-of-wheat!
I've been pondering sub loads in 308 Win recently so this was very interesting. Cartridges come and go but I have a feeling that 308 Win will still be quite popular many years from now. Thanks for the video.
I messed around with a load with the 190sub-x and 4895. I ended up dialing up the powder charge and sat the velocity at 1050. It shoots pretty well and ES improved with the added velocity, as well as the sooty mouth went away.
That's my next step, bump up the powder charge a bit with the H4895.
Don't know why they didn't put in the effort to develop this load properly for the video.
I had major trouble getting hold of Trail Boss powder here in NZ so instead gave some Lil Gun a nudge - it is the ducks nuts. 9.7gr of Lil Gun pushing a Hornady 190gr Sub-X projectile with Sako cases & Federal magnum primers gives me 1020fps ÷/- 9-ish fps at 350m ASL in my Ruger American Predator. No issues with lack of bulk, & they are a very handy round to have tucked away for those shots you don't want the neighbours to hear.
How's this load holding up for you? Still like the lil gun powder for subs? Also have you used lil gun with lighter loads like 150gn?
Finally!!! Feedback I can apply!! Thank you
I actually load Sub 308 with trailboss and 190 grain Lehigh maximum expansion and it opens up over an inch in diameter and penetrates 13 inches in 20% gel and it makes the sub X look like a FMJ compared lol
Cool!
@@guyminer3168 they are obviously twice the price but I was shooting them out a 22 inch barrel so even without a suppressor it's in the 22 LR range of noise
I like Trail Boss for subsonic. We have found that using magnum primers seems to make a more consistent burn especially for cases that are not full.
We load a 150 grain Hornady FML/BT with 9.4 grains of trail boss for a light subsonic load. Case fill is only 69%
And a 180 grain Hornady SST with 11.0 grains Trail Boss with a case fill of 90%
And 190 grain Hornady Sub-X with 11.6 grains Trail Boss with a case fill of 84%
Obviously the better the case fill the more consistent the burn.
I basically cloned the 168gr Winchester Suppressor Subsonic with 168gr Hornady ELD-M bullets, 10gr of Trail Boss and a light crimp. It still stays subsonic in subzero temps for me and I figured out my DOPE and can still hit a target consistently at 200yds but my hold is 26MOA high with my rifle zeroed for 200yds with 149gr M80 ball.
TrailBoss has been impossible to source. I hope it comes back one day
I certainly hope so as well.
Its discontinued from my understanding
@@offense51 I heard it wasn't discontinued but nevertheless none has been produced in two years.
Definitely been discontinued
I wish you were my neighbor@@UserAccountID
I love watching your channel. Shorty is something I'd love to have in Missouri. Cheers!
In Kalifornia, we’re forced to use non lead for hunting. Current .22lr non lead absolutely sucks. I’ve had fantastic success with Blue Dot and Hornady 35gr NTX loads in reduced .223. 9gr of blue dot gets me between 22mag and 22 hornet velocity without the noise of a full power .223. This is from a 24” Remington 700 PSS 1-12 twist. Very consistent and ground squirrels out to 200yds are in trouble. I hand trickle the charge as an extra caution.
Look up a guy that goes by Seafire on 24hr campfire. He’s done a lot of testing with reduced .223 blue dot loads
Great info, thanks!
Guy, try some large pistol primers with the Trail Boss. They may drop the SDs' even lower. They did in my M-70 with it's 1 in 8" twist. My barrel is 18.5" long.
Thanks for the tip!
I load subsonics for 7.62x39. 10.5" AR.
I've actually never had much trouble cycling using CFE BLK
I have loaded 308 subsonics with 7gr of vihtavuori n320 with 160 grain round nose bullets. They are quite accurate but tend to drop quite a bit at a 100 yards.
i do the same 9.5 gn N320 ,200gn Lapua Subsonic and muron LR magnum primer , 300meter no problem travels @ 1060 fps out of a 20 inch Tikka
I use the Berry’s 220’s over 10gr of IMR4227 in 300blk, makes a good subsonic plinking round.
Love trailboss powder but havent seen it in 3 years. Came up with a clays subsonic load with 168s…very fun and accurate
What was your load data for using clays?
My preferred load in my Tikka T3X Tac A1 .308 is Lapua GB552 OTM scenar-L 155gr bullet with Vectan A0 powder. Delivers 1 minute groups at 100m and perfect for goose hunting.
Ha! Here I'd go to jail if I used a rifle for goose hunting!
I’m loading 6.5 CM subsonic with Hornady 160 gn round nose Interlock with Trailboss. My CM has a 7 twist. Works great. And of course .300 BO with berrys and A1680. Would love to have a prefit .300 BO for my savage action.
Love the quip about cop's loving donuts! Looks like some useful loads that would be fun to shoot.
Very nice presentation. Been thinking about making a "shorty" truck gun something like this out of an old Mauser action. Thanks for the loading dope.
Great topic and fun to shoot subs. 450 Bushmaster, 395 Hornady sub x, Trail Boss and Rem 7 1/2 primer. Very good results from bolt action rifle (not sure if it'll cycle a semi). Since subsonic is limited velocity the only way to get more power is bullet weight. The 450 creates 1000 ft lbs at the muzzle so much like a 44 Mag.
Smarter everyday did the 2 bullets video where they shot reduced loads and found the lower powder inconsistency problem just like you had. It played havoc with their speeds and point of impact.
Redot//Promo has long been a subsonic powder. Higher VD and not position sensitive.
Would love to hear from Hodgdon about the status of Trail Boss
Shoot without the suppressor at first to avoid possible keyholing. Drill out the flash holes a tad. Use some quality large rifle magnum primers. Lube up those projectiles with some bacon grease. Make sure the first rounds actually leave the barrel to avoid embarrassment at the dinner table. Enjoy!
.223 subsonic.
60gr hard cast with gas check.
3.5gr TrailBoss.
CCI small rifle primer.
1060fps.
Far surpasses .22lr at longer range "200 yards" on drop and energy.
Don't let anyone tell you it's just a .22lr when loading subsonic .223 !
Heavy crimp helps also.
180gr peregrine sub sonic bullets 1 gr cotton wool filler and 10gr MP 200 pistol primer. Bullet expand to 25mm in animals
Would be nice if you featured a quick burning and fluffy powder that wasn't absolutely unobtainium.
Hogdon titegroup and 168g Sierra HPBT for .308 is subsonic also at 1080 fps
I use titegroup or titewad, but always remember it can be explosively volatile for rifle cartridge use. A little goes a LONG way.
Is Trail Boss ever gona be sold again?
@@Skip356 Same in my area. Haven’t seen it in a while.
@@elplebon45have you verified this with the 8.0 grain load published by Hodgdon? I just tried that from a 20" Barrel and they were hitting the target sideways. I may need to bump the charge slightly.
Really cool to see this type of interesting niche info. This is right up there with sub 223. Of course they're terrible at most things, but there's a few specific applications where this is exactly the right move. Super cool to see...
Like what? You do know a .223 isn't that much larger then a .22 right? What gives the .223 the advantage is the exact thing you take away if you go subsonic. Therefore the ammo and gun are heavier but serving no purpose to any application.
@@Drak976Having the ability to reload and experiment is a hobby for many to see the results .
You known, sometimes you feel like a nut , sometimes you don’t . 😀
@@Drak976 Yeah I forget they made 77gr 22 LR Roll eyes
@@Drak976Here is the advantage:
I load .223 subsonic with trailboss and 62 gr hollow point bullets. This combination is only used for close up shots at small varmints like racoons around our hog feeders. Also, the rifle is a Ruger bolt action with a can and a thermal scope.
So with a quick magazine change and switching shot profile on the scope, I can go from subsonic .223 HP to supersonic .223 HP in a few seconds. All done with the same gun in the middle of a field in the dark.
The supersonic rounds are very effective at killing hogs while the subsonic works great and is extremely quiet for varmints.
Always solid information well presented from you Guy. Unfortunately I just discovered the joy of Trail Boss and of course they quit making it forthwith. Have been playing with cast bullets at subsonic speeds for years. Lots of fun and a few good applications for quiet small game hunting or putting down big game when a full power load isn't required.
can use 30 carbine bullets, makes great rabbit rounds... made them for years (edited for info: 110gr round nose plated, 10grs trail boss, 2.421 COAL, 1100 fps.)
Would love to see you try the Lapua 200 gr fmj subsonic specifically made for sub shooting.
I use the lee 180 grain .309 cast bullet with 8.5 grains of trail boss, decent accuracy and very quiet.
Glad to see Guy again!
Thanks!
Have been hoping to load both of these for .300 black and, why not .308. Hopefully by the end of the month.
Please make a follow up video with 4895 charge increased and another powder that We can actually buy. Maybe CFE Black? Thank You in advance.
A few years ago I wanted to buy a rifle in .300BLK to shoot subsonic ammunition. However, since I have a rifle in .308Win and an excellent MP 311 - 180 SIL GC Hollow Point 3 cavity mold, with which I cast excellent bullets (which I then plastic-coat) and also have Mr. Brömel's Quick Load internal ballistics program on my computer, I tried it out a bit. My MagnetoSpeed velocity measuring device was of course indispensable.
Today, I can load ammunition quite precisely, which compares well with what is shown here in the video. In Germany, hunting roe deer, wild boar or stag with it is prohibited because the bullet, which must have a diameter of at least 6.5mm, must therefore have a velocity of 1476 lbs. at 100m. But it's great fun to shoot and I didn't buy a .300Blk because it can't do anything better than my .308Win.
300 black out I sub x and steel ram powder awesome load for ground hogs quiet as mouse farther with hyperion and cva scout tried the all copper subsonic bullets and they aren't to swift shoot good but like all copper bullets they have a hard time killing instantly even ground hogs they will run from 80 percent of the body shots even with the 194 fracturing bullet but the sub x really thumps when it hits em super accurate I shot ground hogs out to 160 with some Kentucky windage best thing is they don't know your shooting at em till you hit to close or there dead lol
Loading 30-06 with 100 gr speer to 1500 fps. Talk about no recoil😂
More accurate than expected. Good way to take out the 30-06 and just plink and have fun
I have been loading 308 with Trail Boss for a few years now. I use it for wild hog bunting. But I have not been able to find any Trail Boss for a couple of years now. I was really hoping they would start making it again but so far nothing.
Right. I'm looking for alternatives. There are some that seem interesting.
Try magnum primers, my group closed up. and speed were more consistent.
Thank you for the awesome gun video brother.
My favorite and cheap sub load, .223, 55 gr SP, 3.1-3.2 gr of TiteGroup. Stupid quiet in .30 cal can on a Ruger Ranch Rifle(16"). Stand a few feet from a empty aluminum can, pull the trigger and the can doesn't move, just a clean hole through. Great for young shooters.
I coincidently am doing a similar project. Just had a shaw 16.25" in 1:8 put on my old Rem 788. Also just went to range this morning testing IMR4895 at 13.6, 13.3, 13.0. My SD's were all in to 20s as well and had one in each 5 round group come up much lower than rest. Ended up with 1022, 1018 and 928 FPS avg.
Try annealing the case necks to dead soft, and thinning by neck turning.
Recommend working down to subsonic to avoid a bullet stuck in the barrel
Well, after watching this video, I did some testing myself, inspiration for my daughter to go deer hunting, then Dad the handloader, got to work.
BENCHMARK was the powder I found. other powders listed were not available
I got some really nice tight groups at 50 yards
BENCHMARK 13.4 start load, Best performance in the gel block had 22-24 inches of penetration, 1100 fps Average, with a charge if 16.8 grains, and using a gas gun with an 18 inch barrel
Check the AR the second edition AR reloading handbook it has subsonic data for 300 black and 308. if you look it up trail Boss has a PDF that explains that has all their load data from 223 I've seen it all the way up to 4570.
We've used Trail Boss in several different cartridges, including the 45-70, just haven't published all of our work with it yet. I sure hope it returns to the shelf eventually. It's too good a powder to lose. There are of course alternatives.
Tried some data I had from hodgdon years ago, Titegroup, didn't have a chronograph at the time, had a Mil Dot scope, 100 yards believe i had to come up 2.5 mil dots, to impact 100 yards center
Not sure if there is enough ass for deer with subs im sure it would pass thru but probably not a great option definitely gonna try it this year and I bought a bunch of junk Barnes cheap on midway pulled bullets and used primed 300 blackout cases they are cheap and working great
Ya, I intend on continuing to hunt deer and more with full power loads, as always.
I want to wack a coyote with a sub.
I made some after seeing people shoot pigs/hogs with 308 subs. With no crack it doesn't scare away the herd so you get more shots at them. I couldn't get trail boss so used Unique with the poly stuff you get in pillows to fill the case which burns up on firing. I made some with different grains and tested them from high to low till the crack was gone, from memory it was 8 grains which was the winner. In an 18 inch barrel. The barrel has a10 twist and all made a normal hole not sideways through the target at 100.
Iam using 2207 11.5 grains with a 168 zombie max. But iam using wading. Work okay so far.
I trying to load some subsonic 308. However, I have been unable to locate the powders mentioned. I was able to locate some Benchmark which Hodgdon had load data for with that round. Unfortunately the 13.4 grains that they had is definitely not subsonic. Without a chronograph I’m not sure how low to go.
Suggestions??
I have always loaded subs opposite high pressure loads. Start high and work down to 1050 FPS. You reduce the chance of sticking a bullet in your barrel. Also don't do load work up with the suppressor on, or you could tumble a projectile through your baffles. Trail boss is the way to go. Fill it to the neck and start working down. I load a bunch for the kids and fragile men, run 1600-1800 FPS 150 gr using trail boss, very gentle.
I got lucky and snapped up two big containers of trail boss, currently shooting .308 8 twist, 194 Lehigh over 13.6g TB for 1060fps, using Redding dry lube and a neck expanding die gets my SDs into single digits, a lot of brass prep and measuring but a lot of fun too
Great video, been wanting to make a load like this for my scar 17
When adding a suppressor to a rifle that already has a good,safe,accurate load, is it necessary to start over on load development? Just wondering if the suppressor changes pressure or accuracy. Great videos!
I would like to load a 308 down to 30-30 performance. Short range shooting. Any safe suggestions? 😊
I have shot out to 400 yards at a 22lr match and scored impacts. Why not with subsonic 308? Same speed, higher bc, what am I missing?
Wondered if I could load up some .223 sub loads for close quarter fox around sensitive areas. Got me thinking now.
Great results with the trail boss by the way.
Hodgdon has load data for that !!
We like trail boss and thank you for the video.❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤.
Oh man trail boss! I tried to grab it through the screen! It's not being manufactured anymore :(
Oh wow, I didn’t know that. I only have 2 1/2 bottles left. I guess there is less demand with the advent of .300
Feral pig control with IR scope at night. At 50 m several pigs down before they spook.
I’ve had great success with the Hornady 170 gr. .307 diameter with 9.5 Trailboss.
Now if only you could get the Trailboss powder.
Great content (as always). I'm using a 110-grain Hornady spitzer pushed by 11.3 grains of IMR 4198; plop out around 1075...
You should try Vihtavuori n32c....
Allmost as bulky as TB, but much cleaner burning and extremely consistent
performance..!! By far the best powder for subs, that I have EVER used.... 👍👍👍👍👍
I reload for both 308 and 300 lackout subsonic with the same bullets.
What twist rate are you running?
I've been loading the Sub-X in .308 175 gr. bullets. It takes 11.4 grs of Trail Boss to get around 1050fps, which is considerably more than the 10.5 grs used here for the heavier 190 gr Sub-X. I'm not sure how to explain this, except my rifle has a 22 in barrel and 1:10 twist. I might try the 190 gr, but without the suppressor until I can verify stability. I wonder how much Trail Boss powder it will take. All of the various loads I have tried are extremely temperature sensitive (both air temp and barrel temp).
Titegroup works very well in subsonic rifle loads.
Interesting! Thank you.
I worked up a load for my 30-30 using Titegroup and 135 grain coated bullets. 1000 fps, spread was less than 30 fps (and I tried tipping the rifle up then down before firing, Titegroup is position-insensitive). It would be possible to put six of the charge weight I settled on, ya gotta be careful.
308 is my favorite. Can we get some low recoil hunting loads simpler to the old Remington low recoil load
I haven't used the ammo you mentioned - do you know the bullet weight and velocity? We can try! It's pretty easy to load the 308 Win down to be quite mild-mannered.
Remington managed recoil #27672 spec 125gr PSP, vel- 2660 me-1960
@@MikeR505 - that shouldn't be too tough to replicate. :) Might be a while. Gavin's got a few projects lined up for me...
Unfortunately, your fast twist is required to stabilize the 190 + bullets. I have to use the 175 gr. Sub-X for my .308 with a 1-10 twist.
Is that working well?
@@guyminer3168 so far, but my powder choice wasn't great for consistency and I had to clean after 3 shots. I'm picking up a slightly slower powder, HS-6 tomorrow to test.
@@guyminer3168 Just back from the range after testing with HS-6 and that is the powder for this combination. Perfect burn full barrel length with the 16.5" barrel and had no bullets dropping from soot slowing them. I shot 3 groups and all were about an inch and I was just shooting off a bipod without bags etc. The full recipe I used is a Starline .308 Winchester match case with small rifle primer, Winchester small rifle primer, 7.9 gr. of Hodgdon HS-6 was perfect in my gun (your results may vary). I'm shooting it out of a Mossberg MVP Patrol rifle with a 16.5" threaded barrel and topped with a 1-4X24 LPVO. According to quickload, it should be going about 1104 fps in the 16.5" barrel. Unfortunately, due to time, I didn't get to set up the Chronygraph so I couldn't confirm what it produced with my rifle, but they did stay subsonic due to no crack. I'm hoping to get back to the range and test these on some water jugs and also at ranges out to 150, but we'll see. By the calculations at JBM, these should have an MPBR of 140 yards, so great deer loads with the sound of a pellet rifle going off. ;) Looking forward to testing them on a whitetail this fall possibly also. I tested them with and without the my suppressor and the addition of the suppressor only shifted impact by about 1" up and 1" left, so nothing too concerning for removing the suppressor and still being able to hit with them. Next trip I'll be testing them in the AR-10 also, since the burn is full barrel, with the adjustable gas block, I may be able to dial it in to still cycle the action. I'm thinking I'll really like this load. 8)
I just did a test [1/11-2024] with the Sub-X 175gr in my Tikka 308, using around 6.8-7.0gr of Titegroup [Max @ 8.5gr on Hodgdon's website].
Yes, it has a bullet drop like a 22LR [around 16.0" @ 100 yds per BC], and a recoil level of the same.
I find it to be a very good training round for working holdover etc. and Zero wind impact vs. the 22LR
Got around a 1/2" group over 2x5 shoots @ 50yds, with fps range of 1065 - 107 fps w. a SD @ 11.0.
My normal Zero are for 200yds w. 150gr FMJ_BT @ 2800fps, so I had to adjustment for the drop delta for + 4.0" [0.5' vs. 4.5"] @ the 50yd line., and it will be over +12" delta @ 100 yds ..................which will be at the next range visit
I use Lapua cases, the CCI or Winchester Large Rifle Primers in my stainless 20" Tikka_CTR
I’m about to explore sub sonic lever action rounds like 3030 and 44 magnum
The 44 and other conventional handgun rounds are easy to load subsonic, they're close already! Heavier bullets are helpful, but the loads have been developed. We don't happen to have a 44 levergun here at UR, yet. The 357 Henry we do have is a hoot with 38 Special ammo - most of which is subsonic even in factory ammo.
I have loaded subsonic 30-30 with Trail Boss for fun suppressed plinking!
What bottom metal is on this rifle and is that an arca rail in front of it?
Pity Trailboss is non-existent and no longer produced by ADI.
This guys is the Bob Ross of reloading. Sounds just like him.
i dig the hornady 220 interlock round nose for subs.
Good stuff Guy!!🤘🏼🤟🏽👍🏼
Mmm...I normally run a 12-60x60, with SAKO TRG Precision 168gr at 2657fps in a stock Tikka T3x TAC A1 for 600 yard bench (deliberate decision to create a baseline), so from the outset this video has my interest for deer stalking from a high seat/doe box using the same rifle suppressed...
I've been loading 225gr subs for 308 ar10 with h4895 for a few years now. Just came across Hodgdon's subsonic load data and am going to try accurate 5744 since h4895 is becoming so hard to find. Couldn't get my semi to cycle with Trail boss.
The powder companies recommend that the Trail boss should fill the case at least 70%. With the slower burning powders the use of some sort of filler or packer (to keep the powder charge back against the primer) is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED, especially if you are likely to be shooting slightly down-hill. However, the use of a packer can cause problems if you have a suppressor fitted to the rifle. I am surprised that -for serious liability reasons - this was not mentioned in the video. Hence, for 308win sized cartridges it's best to stick with trail boss for your subsonic loads, and used proper dedicated subsonic bullets like Lehigh Defense for best performance, and also to minimise the chance of them sticking in the bore.
That's old news
300BO 10gr 1680 powder 150gr bullet around 1076 fps fun plinker
I get better results with much lower pressures by using reduced charges of 4895 rather than tiny loadings of high pressure Titegroup or Titewad. Trail boss is ok, just very dirty. What have y’all observed?
Why wouldn't you just use 300 blk out?
This ammo is for folks who have a 308 and want to shoot some subsonic through it. Like me! It's been done long before the 300 blk was a thing. If you've already got a 300 blk, you're good to go!
I'd be interested to see how a bulkier powder that burns more slowly might produce more consistency in speed and accuracy. How about Pyrodex or triple 7? Might be interesting to see.
unfortunately I believe hodgdon is discontinuing trailboss. Really sucks cause thats one of my favorite powders
Lee mold makes some great subsonic bullets, isn’t trail boss discontinued?? Anyway 2 bottles left on my shelf 👍🏼
✌🏼😎👍🏼
I'm going to go back and work some more on that H4895 load... I think it can do much better with a little more powder. We shall see. I sure hope Trail Boss shows up again someday, it's good stuff for some applications.
USA has some weird gun regulations... a combination of extreme accessibility and extreme restrictions. What has the barrel length or overall gun length to do with legality of a firearm? Also... I hear there are states (or maybe it is on the federal level?) where you are limited to one gun per month? I am a collector and in my country it is enough of a reason to apply for a permit, so I passed psych evaluation, background check, general physical fitness test (eyes, balance, coordination), passed a written gun law test, passed a practical safety, gun handling and accuracy test and got my first batch of 10 permission slips I could use at will at any gun store or to make a private purchase. If I find few interesting guns in one place at one tile - I can buy them. The only bother is I have to register them within 5 working days and I can't do that online. Rifles are rifles, handguns are handguns, shotguns are shotguns and nobody in the government is interested what additional grips or stock I attach, if I shorten my barrel or extend it... Hell, a classic sawn-off shotgun would be perfectly legal as long I don't damage the serial number. And when I use up my 10 permission slips I just request more (it would probably cause a visit from the local cop to see if my gun storage is sufficient but it is just an administrative procedure that will cost me about $4 per one permission slip). And things like magazines or suppressors - are non-essential gun parts and I can order them online without any legal hassle. All over the Europe (I recently ordered a spare magazine for my Tikka from Finland - it traveled from Finland to Lithuania to Germany and then finally to me in Poland... with a neat and devilishly sharp Finnish knife I ordered to get the free shipping ;) ).
Are they still making Trail Boss? A while back I saw a letter from Hodgdon saying it was temporarily discontinued or something.
I like the idea of a subsonic 308 more than a 300 BLK. Both will obviously suppress well but 308 is going to have way better options when you need to go supersonic
I thought that too until I actually did it. If you want to go subsonic, get a blackout. 308 just doesn't have enough twist for practical subsonic use and it makes Trailboss or Tin Star a must.
@@mab0852 good point. You’d need a custom rifle and then at that point the practicality/budget friendly option is out the window
I built a 6 dasher on one of those actions
I'd imagine that's quite a shooter. :) Great cartridge.
Kinda what I figured what would happen with H4895. I’ll be keeping it for supers
I think that I'll mess with that load a bit and see if I can get some better results. But ya, H4895 is a great old powder for conventional loads.
@@guyminer3168 if you have any better luck let us know. H4895 is easier to get than trailboss but if it’s super dirty and not all that consistent I’ll hold out for the proper stuff
What it would be if you shoot those rounds in a un suppressed barrel? Also will be ok in a 1: 10
yes you need to try the 1.10
You can shoot it un-suppressed. It will still be a light recoiling, mild cartridge. Fun to shoot. The barrel twist... I can't tell you that it will or will not work out. Haven't tried it from a 1:10, but Hornady recommends a much faster twist barrel.
@@guyminer3168 ok thanks . I will look into trying it . Thanks for going into detail on it.
Great video 🎉