I would say fetishization is another reason Korean boy bands are so popular. We still see the average Asian look as novel so it ups that excitement and attraction factor but sometimes that slides into objectification/ownership.
I guess that's why I think K-pop boy bands are sexy, even though I'm a black metal fan and used to seeing men "death-growling" in leather, armor, spikes, and "corpse paint, " lol!
@@darlalathan6143 yeah, things that are different from our personal norms are definitely sexy! We just have to be careful to not pass into the "fetishization" side of admiration/lust for them... I think one way to do this is by individualizing them, like "oh I find THIS singer sexy', or this band is sexy bc of XYZ, but not saying, "All Kpop boys are sexy!" or something like that. Not saying that's what you're doing, btw. It's mostly a note for myself lol
@@shintapp I didn't imply it was strange actually I said it was normal or even expected. It's natural for us to be attracted to novelty and to people who look different from us because genetically admixed people produce healthier offspring. I simply said that makes us more prone to fetishizing others which can be a factor in people acting like they own them (they become fetish items). Overall that isn't what's happening, just something to keep an eye on. I would suggest not watching critique videos if you can't handle critiques.
@@rosie-qm3jn ikr, it was just my personal tastes and I didn’t even talked about my music tastes but just because I didn’t acted overly excited over One Direction and other boy bands they decided to bully me for almost 3 years until they grew up and grew out of their phase...
The ships! The fact that people ship them and everything they do together fans will be like “They’re having a secret affair!” Like no, they just like each other and even if they were secretly dating it’s none of your fucking business
@@TheLily97232 absolutely not I feel the same way. They pair them up in games have them sit close together, I wouldn't even surprised if they get briefed beforehand about cuddling or holding hands and such
Yeah shipping real life people is so weird to me, and it feels invasive, like ship characters from tv shows and movies all you like, but real people? That's nasty. For example Tom Holland and Zendaya, I dont even follow them on social media or keep up with them but I knew ppl shipped then, and now I think they're dating and I can't help but feel like they were pressured into it by their managers and fans. It's creepy as hell. And just in general when fans care way to much about their idols personal lives, honestly even with my favorite creators it's great to hear about them getting married or having kids or whatever, but I'm not actively trying to find out what's up with them because frankly I don't care. I love their content, music, art, but their lives are their lives. Period.
Yeah teen girls just can’t like anything huh? If you like rock you’re a ‘faker’ if you like punk you’re ‘not like other girls’ and if you like pop you’re ‘basic’ sigh
because if god forbid if you grow up thinking your interests are valid and not shallow you might become a confident person who thinks yourself at par with men,we can't have that here :)
I don't think that women who like feminine men do so because they're intimidated by masculinity, but because they find traditional masculinity just boring.
Well "traditional masculinity" is a bit intimidating tbh. I would prefer a man who is vulnerable, open-minded and himself is figuring who he is compared to a traditional one. At least first one is not scared of being equal with partner, experimenting with style, and being emotionaly open. As I typed I realized that I just described a psychologically mature person that our society denies rights for men to be...
@@ИмяФамилия-ф2д8ш in my opinion the problem is that people deny the importance of emotional intelligence and maturity and value charisma and chaos over it. Like many people expect toxicity from every relationship cause it makes it "fun" when in reality they just dont wanna put in the work and achieve a healthy relationship.
@@goldenapple3952 yeah, sometimes if men won't treat themself as "traditionaly masculine" (unable to handle rejection, not consulting with partner, expecting being treated like a "boss/provider" in relationships, etc) then women will. Like c'mon girls you deserve a mature person with a character for a partner, not an animal...
There's also the heteronormative way of thinking "young girls like boybands because they're hot" like... lesbians exist...? lol I'm a lesbian and although all I listen to now is kpop girl groups, back in the day I was a huuuge One Direction stan (still consider myself a fan) because they really help me love myself and feel accepted. I grew up in a Catholic household, and my whole existence to them was wrong and sinful. So coming to One Direction, seeing the way they accepted their LGBT+ fans, and how they had safe spaces for them in their concerts, was everything to me. Nowadays it might be basic human decency (which it is), but back in 2014/15 it was a huge deal to me since I thought I didn't deserve that love and acceptance. Also, thank you so much for talking about the queerbaiting problem in kpop AND the struggles girl groups face in the misogynist society we live in. Thank you!! Much love from Argentina! PS: thanks for the insightful comments
LOL ikr! Also the way people live to second guess and dismiss lesbians when they’re a fan of a boy group or a male celeb of some sort is very annoying. When I was a huge ARMY people were always on my case about how I’m not really a lesbian cuz I really really like a boy group. But when my gay male friends hype up their female celeb favs nobody second guesses them at all. In fact, it seems expected for them to idolize some female celebrity in some way. Misogyny, misogyny, misogyny…
ASGAKSD yo soy de Argentina también y AMÉ tu comentario, qué linda tu experiencia ♥ Y tenés toda la razón, la heteronorma pisando fuerte como siempre, frustrante y lamentable. Pero la vamos a seguir tirando!
Which is funny because people assume there are tons of gay guys loving Boybands, especially when it's kpop. But as usual lesbians go under the radar huh
My favourite boy band is the Jackson 5. They were probably the first boy band that BLACK teenage girls could scream at. Everyone knows their songs for one and if the band never existed; we would have never had the talent that is Michael Jackson.
Sometimes lyrics aren’t just about romantic love and people just assume that it is because it’s a boyband?? Like Taemin’s álbum is literally called “Never gonna dance again” and it’s about his own ambition and how it consumes him. I just think that people should not just think that shallow lyrics are all young girls want to listen???, especially in kpop we have all this deep concepts and lyrics that talk about sooo much more than romantic love, for example Silver Spoon by BTS, but there are a lot of other boybands that have really good ones😐
@@5-starmichelin760 Your user😂 That line of God’s menu lives in my mind rent free, and yes, Stray Kids Side Effects for example is a really good song I think people look past that one, I also stan TXT and the first thing I liked about them is the lyrics not that they are good looking
Even as an EXO fan, I really wasn’t expecting anything from kai’s solo mini album, but it really blew me away and has been at the top of my rotation ever since it came out. Just a fantastic, cohesive work that you can listen to no matter what mood you’re in. I hope he and everyone else who worked on the project are really proud of how it turned out. Thanks for this great video! I never let myself enjoy boy bands in my teens because I heavily internalized messages that it was really uncool to like stuff made for teen girls. I’m glad that in my mid twenties and continuing to now in my late 30s, I could let that go. Despite all the potentially problematic aspects, listening to boy bands can just be a really fun, positive experience. Edit: how could I forget to say that my favorite boyband is SHINee! 💎 ❤️
even as a Kai stan i was unexpectedly blown away by his solo hahahaha. i love the boy and always found him extremely talented but idk why i was still surprised how much i personally loved all the songs. also aye another sm stan (my ult group is nct but also stan exo and shinee)
not even a kai stan just a casual supporter but his mini album has been on rotation ever since it came out its just fkn beautiful. the whole album and its promotion was a complete piece of art i cant describe how gorgeous the direction of it is, and to think that this was such a personally-involved project for him makes me really admire his artistry and creativity. dismissing kpop as 'teen girl music' invalidates all of the hard work and creative genius of artists like kai and its sad to see
This has nothing to do with the video but your content keeps getting better and the production value? Is that what it's called lol keeps improving. Congrarulations!
Right? I swear she got a new camera for this video..... also, it's like... twice as long as her older videos? I hope that helps her out in the algorithms because she's great.
I discovered Bts in 2015 after stumbling across their video for Dope. I had only seen a couple kpop videos before but I thought that these guys were really cute and the song was really good. I started to get more interested in them when I watched their interviews and vlogs specifically because of the way they interacted with each other. I had never seen a group of guys be so affectionate to each other before and it made me feel safe in a way. Even now when I’m feeling sad I go back to my favorite videos of theirs for comfort.
I think for me its their bond and chemistry, they really seem like they're actually friends who just happen to work together and you don't see that very often.
I'm an exoL and i've kind of grown out of my fangirl phase but not their music istg i love like 90% of their songs so no it's not just because they're handsome (which they absolutely are) but they're amazing singers and performers
Same. I started stanning them as a teenager. Now I'm doing job and living on my own. And I'm still into them deeply. Not because I fantasize them as my love partner or crush, but because of their music and this deep respect for them for making my teenage years better and having a great impact on my personality as well.
Lol in middle school my bff went from kpop boy bands like SHINee to emo boy bands like Falling in Reverse to becoming the biggest Directioner. Apparently there was a lot of overlap between these fandoms despite their dramatically different genres and images.
I think it is existence of stable and developed cultures in those fandoms. These communitied are small but really tight as their music won't appeal to general public so it feels comfy and welcoming in here.
I’ve seen a strange relationship and shared respect growing between metalheads and kpop fans too. Probably from the fact that both of their musical interests have been kind of frowned on, looked down on, and the fans stereotyped by the media and others. So surprisingly, I’ve come across quite a lot of kpop fans who are metal heads too.
As someone who was an exo-l at a very young age when I didn't have a good relationship with my parents or really anyone to look up to, I saw them as almost big brothers. I looked up to them for being hard working and talented and wanted to be like them. Their nonthreatening masculinity made them sort of comforting male figures for me.
Yeah, I’m a BTS fan (think EXO is super cool too!) and I’ve always seen them as serious role models. They’re kindhearted, intelligent, hardworking, and tough all at the same time, and they represent exactly what I want to be as a person. I think I would feel the same way regardless of my sex, they’re just really inspiring people and I’ve seen straight male kpop fans say the same kinds of things.
really enjoyed this! I remember when kai talked about feeling uncomfortable in a crop top off stage and I've always wondered just how often they have to deal with that for the sake of a performance. also pixel perfect for the movie at the end!
rather than uncomfortable, kai described himself as being embarrassed in crop tops offstage--he wasn't used to showing his torso in that way. also, kai is someone who does something "for the sake of a performance" to give himself satisfaction before anybody else. the first time he ever wore a crop top it was a stage outfit HE chose and says he enjoys wearing various clothing and conditioning his body(like bulking up for superm's tiger inside) to make a concept and stage be shown at it's best. kai thinks of it all as an art so he doesn't exactly "deal" with it.
Bo said in an interview that he felt very bad when Justin Bieber was in one of his shows and he was singing that song. Thank you for this video. Great work 👏👏👏
I didn't entirely agree with Cheyenne's criticism of that song, personally. I always saw it much more as a criticism of the music industry/executives who fabricate these ideas as a way to capitalize on the low self-esteem of young girls who just don't know any better yet. I never heard it as a criticism of the girls who like those artists at all, moreso just being honest that they're too young to be able to comprehend that they're being manipulated. But yeah, I can see how it devalues the work of the artists themselves, and can definitely understand why Bo would feel bad singing it in front of Justin Bieber. I just don't think it's accurate to say that he was insulting the girls who enjoy this kind of music.
@@maggiedk I agree with you. I came to understand her point in the video, but I thought it was a little one-sided to paint the song as only bashing the girls for listening to it. Bo was obviously acting as an exploitative, disgusting asshole and he was pretty much representing the music industry. If anything it seemed to me like he was critiquing the way the industry/artists think of and treat their fans. That said, totally makes sense about the Justin Bieber hesitation. The point about both of them starting out very young from RUclips I think was also a fair comparison to make.
that makes me feel a bit better, I was always pretty mad at him for being such a hypocrite in that song (he tends to write the same “sad boi” content a lot of the time and I’ve seen it appeal to his female fans, I don’t mean that he isn’t being genuine but he should acknowledge that he is also writing a lot of songs that appeal to people) and it was really rude to criticize people in that way. I do believe you if you feel he was playing a character, but I REALLY think that if someone’s playing a character that’s a “disgusting asshole” then they should really, really make it more clear that it’s just a character, because otherwise they just end up contributing to the message of the real assholes. I still feel that the song was a bit in poor taste, but if he really wasn’t trying to criticize the women that makes it a bit better. However, I also think it’s a bit dumb to judge artists for making music their audience likes, since making their audience happy is kind of an important goal for a lot of artists and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. And, as I said, Bo also makes music his audience likes. Sure he might consider himself more authentic but it’s unfair for him to judge others for making things their own audiences enjoy.
"Scream their puberty out to" I mean like boy bands and male celebrities, or celebrities in general, actually can be very helpful for processing puberty or romantic/sexual attraction and what those forms of attraction mean to you. I am 22 and I have never been in a relationship before, but I have many times used male celebrities and some female ones to figure out who and what I like and dislike. In my Lifeview Paper that every senior at my college has to write before graduating, I ended up writing multiple pages about Kpop because it was a huge part of my development, and this is part of the reason why. I actually said in that paper that, in a way, SHINee was my first love! And in a way I was not wrong. They and other celebrities provided something to project ideas onto, and the fandoms provided a place for me to mutually process feelings with other people. All that being said, I am certainly not in puberty anymore but I'm still weak for many men lol Overall I firmly believe that boy bands (and celebrity crushes in general) can be an important and positive part of psychological development as long as the mindset of the fan is healthy Now I'm gonna watch the rest of the video lol it's just that that is a very interesting topic to me
I used to judge girls who listened to justin bieber and one direction when I was 14 and deep into my "not-like-other-girls" phase... only for me to stan bts at 19 years old, so the joke's on me (also I was casually listening to kpop then, at that time, so that was also hypocritical on my part kdfljdsk). I am more of a girl group adjacent person nowadays, but when I was starting out getting more invested in kpop, I listened to bts, exo, nct and monsta x. now the boy groups I mostly listen to and like are bts, txt, shinee, the boyz, and enhypen. I think when it comes to most "criticism" surrounding boy bands and their fandoms, there's some elitism and sexism that comes into play. first of all, it's elitist, bc people like to equate boy band music with "low-brow art" and "manufactured corporate bad" music or that their music is "vapid and meaningless", in contrast to other artists who are oh so "authentic" and "real". I used to fall into this dichotomy of thinking, but over time, I saw how toxic that way of thinking is. bc ultimately, music have to be deep or have meaningful lyrics to be good or artistic. I know this "criticism" is levied against mainstream pop artists and kpop idols in general, but especially for boybands. it's as if you're saying that you can never be artistic, meaningful or deep if you're an "idol" or a boy band member. I can't speak for western boy bands, bc I was never into them, but I am pretty sure that some actual boy bands have some pretty meaningful songs too with good messages. when you look at kpop, there are members of boy groups who are in touch with their artistry. like jonghyun from shinee, the seventeen memebrs (especially woozi), and the bts members (especially the rapline - rm, suga and jhope). and while I think that for the most part, most boy groups do have the usual "hey girl" lyrics, there are also boy groups who do make a lot of meaningful music. like I know bts and stray kidz have made some socially conscious and very personal music that isn't necessarily about love (though I am sure they have some love songs in their discography). bts have critiqued social norms, in songs like "no more dream" (the heavy expectations and pressures placed upon youth), "n.o." (the stringent education system) "go go" (consumerism and the socioeconomic anxieties of millenials + gen z's) and "baepsae" (elitism, socioeconomic gap across generations, basically an "ok boomer" song). on the other hand, while I am less familiar with their music, stray kidz have sung about mental health in songs like "voices" and "side effects" (I think). so while I also think that there's nothing wrong with meaningless "hey girl" love song type of lyrics, I also don't think it's fair to shrug off all boy bands and their music as vapid and valueless, bc there are boy bands who DO sing about important stuff. you just have to know where to look for them. boy bands are artists in their own right too. just bc they aren't whipping out a guitar and singing out raw lyrics, doesn't mean they aren't talented and that their output isn't art. that said, while I also think that a couple of boy band fandoms do deserve to be called out when they cross the line, bc let's be real, they do a lot, I have something to say about how boy band fandoms tend to be criticized more as "rabid, obsessive and wild", and yet they aren't levied against male-dominated fandoms, like sports fans, who are guilty of the same things boy band fandoms do, and are sometimes arguably more destructive. it's another way of demeaning teenage girls, women and their interests. edit: I wasn't able to expound on this originally, bc I thought I would breach character limit, but I clarified that I don't think that music should be "deep or meaningful" to be good, artistic or have value above. it's part of me tackling the elitist arguments and takes against boyband music. so yeah, sorry. also, to add to my "some of these bad takes on boyband music + fandoms are sexist" argument, please tell me that I am not the only one who side-eyes that fact that boybands are only given "legitimacy" when they start gaining male fans. like the beatles obviously grew and improved musically, but they only were noticed and were given legend status when men started praising them. before that, they were dismissed bc girls liked them, when truth of the matter, they've always been good or talented. sadly, this carries on that even the boyband members/artists and the fandom themselves believe this. there's this difference in treatment between male fans and female fans. sadly, some boyband members seem to treat their male fans better than their female fans, bc the fact that they had male fans apparently means that they are now "true" artists, bc see?? even men love them! also, I've seen my fair share of fangirls simp over fanboys or put them over the pedestal, for the same reason, that the fact that men starts liking their fave artists means that liking their artists isn't considered "uncool" or "cringe" anymore, plus the band can be recognized as "real" artists. like it doesn't matter if said male fan contributes less to the fandom, or isn't very creative or talented. more people will listen to him or praise him, just the fact that he gives the artist legitimacy. bc apparently, "if a girl likes male artists, who coincidentally happen to be attractive, it's bc he's hot and she wants to date/marry him; but if a guy likes the same artist, it's bc he's talented and is in touch with his music" am I right??? smh
The fact alone that it is demanded of music to be "deep" to be legitimate is just... I mean what do ppl expect it's the pop genre it's meant to be enjoyable and have a nice rhythm. I really love the comparison of sports to kpop. I was just thinking about it bc it's not like teenage boys are delving into anything "deep" either it's just not called out like that. But yeah sports are a good comparison bc they are also not expected to grow out of "that phase" whereas for the most part ppl think only "little girls" could like boybands and women are expected to grow out of it.
@@heatherlee2967 Recently, an ARMY (xCeleste) made a great video comparing boy band fans to sports fans (in particular ARMY and BTS to sports fans), called "Difference Between Sports Fans and Boy Band Fans". I thinks it's really great, because it calls out a lot of the hypocrisy.
@@yannatorres Yes, I would even say that to me pretty much all their love songs are meaningful. They all have a concept and some poetic ideas behind them, not basic like many others. I think in 'Savage Love' it was most apparent how the Korean lyrics are poetic and beautiful while the English ones are straight-forward and simple.
Loved your video Cheyenne! As a gay man in his early 20s, I think a reason why I have recently gotten into boy bands (primarily NCT) is because I now feel able to embrace the more inherently feminine aspects associated with the fandom, that internalised homophobia (rooted in sexism) once made me think of as shameful. It's honestly been quite liberating. Keep up the amazing work!
Thank god cause I’m so sick of folks not taking male sexualization seriously It’s the way this started of with MAMA…. Your editing power ma’am, great way to set a tone
News flash: sexualizing guy groups for existing isn’t okay. No they’re not in a relationship with each other and it’s NOT A SINGLE PERSON’S business otherwise. Let them exist. This should all be common decency but they can’t even have just that which is so sad.
why do i never see anyone say stuff like “yeah it’s a possibility they could be dating, but let’s not sexualize it or try to pretend it’s a fact” when it comes to idols, it’s always “uwu small gay bean” or “no, it’s impossible for an idol to be gay and dating their fellow member”. i agree with you, it’s not our business, however, i just feel like we should say that rather than “no, they’re straight and that’s final”, ya know? it is also 1:30AM for me so idk if i just said complete nonsense
@@whats_ur_damage7879 no I completely understand so thank you for adding a new perspective! I agree actually! And I’m sure that sadly if k pop idols date fans they’d get hate just like if they came out as gay. And that’s a lot of hateT^T. I mean they get so much hate for the thought of dating so yeah I absolutely agree! I just wish everyone would let them live. To do what they want and their actions not being held over their head every second because of an image for the fans? To uphold or something. Anyways hi moa!!!!
@@whats_ur_damage7879 i mean the obvious answer. because we're consuming them for content. we're not discussing groups as some sort of scholarly excercise, if we think two guys together is hot or relatable or whatever that's what we talk about. but keeping a dedicated fandom requires content so of course the groups keep feeding that side too
@@whats_ur_damage7879 Well it did happen in the Spice Girls when Geri admitted to having a Lesbian fling with somebody in the music business. And that someone turned out to be Mel C.
As fellow EXO trash and a Black woman who's listened to their music for years, I really appreciate your analysis and giving credit to the Black songwriters and producers behind their music - it's part of the reasons why I love their music, because Black people are directly involved and it's not the boys making a mockery of it, which unfortunately is the case with other groups in kpop. I have many words about Kai and his appropriation of hair and the group's colorism issues, especially in the early days, but that's for another time. As for the way people dismiss girls for liking boy groups it's just really hypocritical- teen and young adult girls hold so much cultural and economic power from our enjoyment of these groups, and if we're honest, The Beatles would've never have become the phenomenon they did without us. Girls deserve more credit than just being motivated by puberty and our hormones.
@@rosedalinevaletine6931 they literally Mentioned the colorism and cultural appropriation of the black culture and that beign a problem in the beginning of their statement 🙄
I think it’s important to recognize cultural things at play here, in Asia when they talk about “dark skin” they usually mean “tanned Asian people”, which they don’t tend to think looks good because it’s kind of associated with being lower class and working in fields (which is another problem but it’s a very old cultural thing) and premature aging. Sometimes kpop guys will poke fun at each other for being tanned, and that gets translated as them not liking dark skin in general, but there’s a world of difference between tanned Asian skin and the natural skin of someone of a darker skinned race. My point is that Koreans don’t necessarily have ANYTHING against the appearances of dark skinned people, they just don’t like the way their own skin type looks when tanned.
Also it’s important to remember that controversies about using black hairstyles almost always come from the artists admiring black artists but not knowing that imitating their looks could be considered hurtful. Because things like blackface never existed in their culture (as everyone is the same race) they have absolutely no idea that imitating someone (in a positively intended context, of course) could be considered offensive. They think the hair looks cool, and they assume that it will be obvious that they’re using it because they like and admire the artists they’re imitating. Obviously this doesn’t in any way stop the fact that it’s still hurtful to black fans, it’s still totally okay for them to feel upset-it’s still something that means terrible things to them. It’s just that the Korean artists themselves almost never have any bad intentions, they usually are actually trying to express a deep love and admiration for black artists, they’re just making major mistakes in doing it because of the cultural differences. Basically, it’s well intentioned and the artists don’t have racism in their hearts when they do it, but it’s important they learn from and fix their mistakes because it still hurts their fans and their first priority should always be to make sure that they’re not hurting anyone, especially people they’re supposed to love.
5sos is one of those groups that have talked about wanting to build a male fanbase to be taken more seriously which is so sad for me I'm a girl who supported them for so long
That’s extremely rude of them. I understand the reasoning behind it, as it isn’t technically about female fanbases being lesser, just about them being treated poorly, but it’s ultimately a VERY cowardly response to that sexism. Rather than disregarding the importance of their female fans, they should have tried to gain respect by doing respectable things and trying to cultivate a mature and intelligent image. That way they could have helped their female fans gain respect along with them, and maybe done some good for similar groups. Instead they chose to not challenge ANYTHING and just bow down to sexism. That’s kind of pathetic. Not saying they can’t still be a good group but that’s a terrible thing to say
This video came out at the right time! I got into Kpop this year and I've been thinking a lot about the idol/fan parasocial relationship as well as my personal journey with Kpop and my identity as an Asian American woman. This whole video was so well done! My favorite group is CIX. I hope anyone reading this checks them out! A lot of their songs are produced by the same people who produced some EXO songs. Their music is so good. I highly recommend their 3rd mini album title single "Jungle" and their debut single "Movie Star".
Heyy longtime kpop fan here & I feel you :’) In the past I’ve struggled a lot trying to figure out the fan-idol boundaries as well! I think it’s so easy to take too much consideration of what others WANT to think about kpop/typical fans & apply that to yourself, even if it isn’t necessarily true for you. At this point, I’m like ... fuck it I’ll just let myself enjoy what I enjoy while 1) not overcomplicating this or letting it seep too deep into my real life, and 2) stilll understanding that this is an industry built to make money. Sorry if this comment doesn’t make sense, it’s super late for me haha PS love cix :)
@@qrcd Oh definitely, like, I want to gush about how cute or sexy these men are! Because....they're cute? And sexy? It doesn't mean I literally want to sleep with these men much less believe I have a shot to begin with! I understand it's the image I'm buying and consuming. I know whatever I'm getting out of Kpop is for me to enjoy and I don't have to justify it to anyone else. And like, the capitalist side of it is like...we live in a society 😂 like, yes, there are a lot of things going on in the Kpop industry, but that's why as fans we have to use our power wisely when we can but outside of that we're all just cogs caught up in this machine, will ppl lay off our backs and let us enjoy ourselves for once? like, it doesn't always have to be super deep.
As a fan of the 90s black R&B groups (Boyz II Men, Jodeci, etc) I think the main change korean producers took when taking the boy-band artist model was putting more of an emphasis on dancing rather than singing. For a successful boyband you have to find guys with some talent in both but in reality, genius talent levels of both singing and dancing is really rare (people like Michael Jackson, Chris Brown, Usher) So producers have to work their best with the available talent pool. So I think in general people can learn coreographed dancing faster then they can learn to sing really well. There's also a higher skill ceiling in singing as compared to dancing. When in live performance, singing can also be "dressed up" using technology. The focus on dancing over singing I think reflects the medium of entertainment where in the past artists got all their income from radio and CDs, now artists have youtube and large concerts to get more of their income from coreographed dancing.
Interesting point! I would say New Edition, another epic 80s/90s boy band, focused a lot on dancing & inspired many future groups from Kpop to NYSNC to R&B. The boy bands that New Edition drew their style from, who were Black boy bands from the 50s/60s like The Temptations, were *always* on top of their dancing game 🔥 Today not a lot of bands dance & it's frustrating. Actually, not a lot of MALE bands or male performers dance period. But somehow it's always expected for FEMALE performers to put on a show - whether as a group or individual, rappers or singers, for some reason they're all expected to dance, sing, the whole lot.
@@ambriaashley3383 New Edition's one of my favorites too！You know how much fans loved R&B groups back in the day when they used to rock the Apollo theatre. I prefer vocals over dancing but to me the group that had the best of singing and dancing was Troop. This is when they went on Arsenio Hall ruclips.net/video/mC7-JIviZy4/видео.html
i think another problem with girl groups at least in the US & UK is that labels purposefully stir shit up among fans and encourage speculation about who would be the most successful solo, to the point where many girl groups seem like they were created with the purpose of being pre-marketing for whoever is picked as the solo star, rather than to be a success in their own right, and this contributes to girl groups having a shorter lifespan. they're either pit against each other behind the scenes, or one girl is picked as the lead while the others are reduced to backup status, or both. from what i've seen, kpop girl groups seem to be better at presenting the members as a unit rather than 1-2 leads + backups and i think that's more sustainable and appealing to fans in the long run.
on the subject of girl groups - they do sell. in japan. where they manage to have large male fandoms. i know the western perspective tends to view them as 'creepy' but there is a whole other discussion to be had there. boygroups do still sell better but the market for female idols there is much bigger.
I don't have a favorite boyband and I barely listen to kpop but you made me interested in EXO honestly 😆 thanks for this video, it was insightful and great to watch. You're improving!!!
@@heatherlee2967 oh man you’re in for an amazing ride. Their B sides are the best in the industry. You’re going to lose so much money on their awesome Albums. If you’re new to kpop you should watch some album unboxing videos. Also check out their sub groups and member solo albums.
About being touchy..those idols are touchy since its is normal in Asia. But people fetishizing their friendships and being utterly convinced they're in love with each other is highly disturbing. Of course, the companies does nothing about it for that $$$. However, if the same male idols wear such clothes and heavy makeup outside of their profession, they'll immediately be labelled as "gay" according to stereotypes. And of course, being labelled "gay" isn't done as a nice statement. Asia is still very much homophobic. That's not to say the idols can't be gay, they can very well be gay, bi, trans, pan, queer, etc. There also might exist asexual idols too! I've seen a couple of idols change their gender to "they/them" as well. But you'll never know most of them because they can't come out due to idol standards and society.
Yup. It’s so sad. I’ve heard of an idol come out as ace which is so awesome and something to look up to especially as me being ace too. But I also heard some come out as gay! Anyways lol it sucks that NOBODY CAN BE FRIENDS like huh?! Do friends not exist in male groups? Why is everyone so bent on sexualizing them? It sucks they’re toooo young and am even if they weren’t it still wouldn’t be okay EVER! I wish I could change it or do something about it T^T
@@ihatemostpeople6711 asexual is not being attracted to people sexually; you can still like guys, girls and enbys not liking anyone romantically is aromantic
i haven't finished the video yet but i wanted to point out that Taemin didn't participate in the wakeboard challenge because he fractured his wrist! it actually seems right up his ally, i think he probably wanted to but couldn't
Haven't finished watching yet but this is amazing so far. One thing that came to mind though about your comments about Taemin's Criminal at ca. 40:00 is that it seems Taemin is mostly aware that a lot of his fan base grew up with him and is now in their twenties which would make his current concepts more appropriate. Plus it seems like there are darker themes throughout all of his newer stuff as well as sexual themes that are a bit more out there than the typical kop boy band hip thrusting (on every album there seem to be at least 1-3 songs about BDSM with him being the submissive partner 😂. While that could be complete coincidence it could also be that this is just a way in which he likes to express himself considered he picks all the songs and concepts out himself in recent years) Overall I think Taemin has kinda evolved past typical boy band status at least in his solo work
god i love the way you talk and expose your thoughts and what you studied ! as an exo-l (and an idol enthusiast in general) i adore learning things through some of my favorite artists, thank you so much for your hardwork 💖 ps: my favorite boy bands are exo and seventeen, though i have been into 2pm and shinee recently too
Great video Cheyenne! I've grown up listening to boy bands my whole life; moved from NSYNC to the Jo Bros, Big Time Rush (who were around the same era as 1D and the Jo Bros) and now K-Pop with EXO, BTS, NCT, etc. Your video was really informative on the history of boy bands and it also gave me some food for thought of how I interact (and have interacted) with boy bands and the criticism that envelopes them. Your small section on EXO's showtime really took me back because back when EXO were my fav boyband, I watched that and I loved it, but I now notice a lot of the flaws with it that you pointed out and how it's just not the same watching it anymore knowing what EXO has been through and still goes through to this day. It's quite uncomfortable looking at a lot of idols' earlier debut material and how they just have to put up with certain things they later reveal at some point they were a bit weirded out by or not okay with. Same thing with some girl groups. I hope someday these groups can have a little bit more autonomy (which in some very small ways I feel they do kind of get now) but the fact they're so harshly "babysat" for lack of a better term by companies for $$$$ really sucks.
In so glad you liked the video!!! I remember big time rush too. I guess they were like nick’s late answer to the jo bros. I’m also glad you liked the section about exo showtime. It was a weird watch but I think it’s also cool how even though it’s staged it is a little time capsule of that time. I also think boy bands get more autonomy now (though still limited) and with EXO specifically as they’re all kind of veterans are I think are more free to do what they want nowadays, but I can imagine that the early must have been pretty intense
as someone whose favorite boy band (it feels weird calling them this even though they started out that way) is The Beatles and who loves classic rock bands, this was a fascinating watch. The similarities between the boy band hype of the 90s-today and beatlemania is so mind blowing. I think the west has seen the rise and fall of boybands as One Direcrion disbanded and the attention and money of young people has shifted to kpop and expectations for what a boyband should be have risen past what the west is willing to put the effort into achieving. You just can’t put four guys and their instruments on stage anymore and sell hundreds of millions of records like The Beatles could. But with kpop you can make a group to last 7 years, sell thousands of albums, and then when you’re done you make another one and sell thousands more. It’s definitely a genius business model.
11:54 the reason exo's trainee years are inconsistent is probably because they disclude "debut-expected" trainee years as their training period sometimes. There are a lot of "levels" of trainees, especially in the Big 3. There are trainees that have not been officially signed(because this period is relatively short and isn't official, most people don't view them as actual trainees), officially signed trainees(which are the 'regular trainees') and debut-expected trainees(where the group is almost fixed and the group will debut as expected unless there is a big problem). Baekhyun was a regular trainee for 4 months before he got into the debut trainee pool, where he trained for an additional 7 months to debut. So he did train for 11 months, but his 'regular trainee' term was only 4 months. In Suho's case, he trained for about 6½ years, which is why I think it fluxuates between 6~7 years. As a regular trainee, he would've trained for about 6 years, but if he includes the additional 7 months of predebut training, it would be nearly 7 years.
@Fangirl 791 it's not really like that, kai always trained himself before getting into sm but he was one of the members who trained for longest time.Don't know about Chen but Baekhyun shared ,how he got the opportunity to be in the official exo line up.LSM basically visited the tarinee dorms once & ask everyone to do something & our genius idol just thought it's his time to shine.
3:10 my favorite boyband when I was a teenager was Backstreet Boys, but I liked many others like Nsync. Then when I was 16/17 I started enjoying other types of music. I thought my "boyband phase" had ended with my adolescence but nope. I found out about kpop a while ago and now I'm here in my late 20s being a BTS fan. So much fun. Being a fan girl is really fun. 18:09 I also don't understand the stigma the term boyband has. I've seen some BTS fans criticize people who call BTS "boyband", which makes no sense to me. They are a boyband. If people have prejudice against boybands that's their problem. RM, the leader of BTS, called themselves a boyband in a very recent interview.
Some fans even say that BTS is not kpop but then turn aroun and say they kings that paved the way for modern kpop? Bc apparently kpop was always repetitive songs with simple but catchy choreo from untalented clout chasing idols before BTS appeared and not a term for korean music industry? There is so much double standart and toxicity in kpop that sometimes it make you wonder - do they even see idols as living human beings...
I know that’s not really what you meant but at least in Korean entertainment “boy bands” are groups that sing and play instruments (like CNBLUE or The Rose) and boy groups are idols who just sing and dance. So for the most time you see fans labelling them as groups and not bands. Also I want to touch on the surface of the difference between “idols” and “artists”. Even tho idols are technically both of it many kpop fans (especially toxic ones) don’t label them as such until the group writes most of the songs themselves + meaningful lyrics. So for example (toxic) Army’s would often use the argument that other groups aren’t “real” artists because they don’t write most of their songs themselves and their lyrics are for the most time generic. And they use it as a downgrade. Of course it’s always better to know that your artists write their own lyrics and knowing that they are capable of that but doesn’t make them superior. Other idols just focus on other things (like exo who focus’s heavily on vocals and to this day study it and get better) + BTS went through the idol training system and do things that other idols do so they are idols too and that’s not a bad thing.
@@ИмяФамилия-ф2д8ш The reason some fans say BTS is not kpop is usually when they’re talking about their musical genre. That’s because kpop should NOT be a genre, the songs should be categorized by their own styles. Although some people might just be being rude to other kpop bands, the goal in saying those things is almost always to stop the incredibly racist practice some western companies attempt of making separate “kpop” categories for radio stations and awards, therefore separating Korean music from all other types of music and smashing all popular Korean songs together regardless of genre. Music should not be categorized based on its country, it should be categorized based on the music itself. It’s a form of segregation, imagine if the first woman to earn a prestigious award in her field was told that they’d make a new “woman” category for her because she’s too “different” to be mixed in with the men. That would obviously be terrible, and if she objected to it it wouldn’t be because she doesn’t respect other women. BTS fans that say BTS isn’t kpop are usually campaigning against the idea that they should be put in some magically invented award category because their group is Korean. Obviously BTS IS kpop, because they’re Korean and popular. The point is that kpop is not really a genre, and it’s racist to keep BTS out of categories used by western artists simply because them being Korean means they somehow don’t count as any other genre other than the one that specifically refers to their race.
@@engelberthovel8566 saying they aren't kpop is like complimenting someone with "you are smart for a WOMAN" - backhanded and very much uncalled. They are kpop and just like US awarding a film about family of korean immigrants in a "foreign" category they will put kpop as a separate genre until they realize it's not very smart bc the only difference is the language. Westerners (americans especialy) aren't used to the whole kpop culture and stuff and them creating a whole new segment just for kpop is not unexpected nor something bad. All we have to do is wait
it’s nice seeing exo being talked and research about crazy to think that in kpop spaces exo fans complain about exo lack of non musical content (variety / reality shows/ YT videos/ vlives)in comparison to other kpop act . but for outsiders they probably have too much content in comparison to western acts. i also appreciate the fact that exo didn’t play heavily on creating ships and “couple” interactions and fan service. it resulted fans to think they are not “as close” because they don’t have much content. but i believe it created a healthy relationship between the members and the fans. ships are not pushed and they don’t encourage it. good for them
This was so well done. As a huge fan of the groups mentioned, as well as someone who lives and works in South Korea and has seen kpop acts up close for several years, all of these are very valid points.
Well done! I thoroughly enjoyed your video. I am a middle aged woman who loves EXO. Not brainless, not impulsive or exploring my budding sexuality, which proves that this type of music does also stand the test of time. I am in for the music and fun as well as the androgenous yet masculine visuals. It's such a great entertainment. Why is fanatic sport obsession, where fans scream and even destroy things accepted and viewed as ok and yet screaming teenage girls are brainless and hysterical? You said it. Anything enjoyed mostly by females is instantly discredited. Chick flicks are dumb but guy flicks are cool. This needs to change. Thank you.
i also think... girls/woman are so easily ready to shout from the rooftops that we like something and we are not ashamed. what would all these boybands have if women were not there to adore their music and their cute faces? they would legit not have a career. and i LOVE groups who recognize this. My favorite group, SHINee, they LOVE their female fans - cause why shouldn't they?! they respect the ladies who love their music, when guys for SOME reason are usually (not always) too ashamed to admit they like them. or won't even give it a chance because girls like them?? ..... why would you as a man - not like a group of men your own age/or older who make great music and look cool and are JUST as manly as anyone else - just more beautiful than you ;) ..... So women are the ones openly showing their love and you know what? they world is a much better place for it
@@tromboner6061 maybe go to a Kpop concert and see how many boys you can spot… the whole stadium is packed with female fans. No group would be anywhere if not for the fans. Who are usually WOMEN.
I remember when B2K, Jonas Brothas, Big Time Rush, and One Direction was big. I wasn’t a huge fan but I did like B2K, Jonas Brothas, and Big Time Rush. I do admit that I was obsessed with MJ, Chris Brown, and Trey Songz.
Boybands and girlgroups are fascinating because of the interpersonal relationships. A solo artists has varying levels of chemistry with interviewers, but fundamentally they're really just talking about who they are and what they like, however a group can show instead of tell when we see how they treat each other. Kpop has correctly identified that if you throw the group in a room and turn on a camera, that's all you need. No host or other guests, just EXO Showtime while they bump around a rental house in a series of contrived setups like the chicken or the movie thing. We want to see them laugh and joke and play with each other. Watching the group bond and interpersonal bonds grow will lock in a female fan base better than anything else. Also, member interactions are water on which to sail our ships.
That's so true! As a dedicated fangirl of a troupe of comedy actors, I love interviews where they're mucking around & teasing each other- & being comedians, it's goddamn hilarious- or talking about their friendship; & outtakes- them repeatedly mangling their lines, or corpsing cos one of the others who's out of shot is deliberately winding them up... I don't ship them romantically, but I'm totally on board (lol) with shipping the freakin' adorable friendships in the group :)
I love that you heavily criticized the boy band (and Kpop as a whole) phenomenon while also praising it too and still being a fan! Your videos are so nuanced and I really appreciate content like yours. ❤
My first boy bad was 1D I remember watching them on the XFactor and buying the first album, I also had a 1D lunchbox. But I wasn’t a teen fan I was a kid fan who just wanted the older teens to think I was cool because I knew all the songs. Still brings fun memories
this was such a great deep dive into this topic! I feel like the whole kpop industry as a whole is a very very long and fucked up subject of discussion that would probably take days to analyze every aspect of it and the problems that emerge from it. I've been a kpop fan for about 6 years now (7-8 as a casual listener) and I've seen sooo many groups come and go or fade in the background, not because they didn't have talent of potential but because their companies only see them as money-making machines and treat them horribly. Not many groups survive the 7-year-curse and that's such a shame and waste of talent. K-pop has become over-saturated to the point that if the groups are not from the big 3 or hybe barely get a chance in the spotlight. I don't like when people describe kpop as "manufactured" because it takes away the actual artistic experience from it which is the thing i most enjoy in kpop. But I can't help but agree sometimes that these companies are just producing groups left and right with little to no consideration into the "artistic" aspect. Every group is tailors to be perfect and if you're not then you're considered a "failure" or a "flop" but in reality that is what being human is about. I hope in the future the kpop industry shakes things up and let idols be human and not god-like figures that can do no wrong. all these issues that emerge every other week or month where we see scandal after scandal in the industry has really pushed me away from kpop. Not that the western industry is any better it's just the kpop industry is super hypocritical to the point it's frustrating and exhausting. It would be easier to "just listen to the music" but it's almost impossible when you suddenly find out one of your favorite groups are disbanding because the members are suing the company for mistreatment or mismanagement or whatever else. And that's just an example, groups have disbanded for a lot less. They make us emotionally connect with the artists so of course it hurts us when it turns out they are being treated badly. Or even worse when they turn out to be a bully and just and overall horrible person (example: Seungri, Kris, Jimin from A.o.A, April etc). Honestly I would have probably quit kpop if it wasn't for my new-found love for ateez. They have really lit up the spark in my heart, which had grown cold, once again. They made kpop bearable for me. Even if they get a shit ton of hate lately which saddens me a lot. I think the reason why they pulled me in was that they are focusing a lot on individuality and personality/character when they perform. I don't think I've ever seen a group immerse themselves so much into the characters that their songs require it's almost like watching a movie or a theater play. Whether it's a happy song or a scary song or a powerful song or a tragic and sad song or anything else, they manage to create a storytelling narrative through their expressions. And it's not just one or two members that do this, it's all of them together. They manage to create a beautiful harmony without overshadowing each other. I personally find this to be a high expression of art. Because that was the main reason why I got into kpop in the first place. Art is an expression and application of a human creative skill and imagination. The expression of oneself is the one of the most difficult ones to master because while you can learn to sing and dance, it is very difficult to show and control raw emotions. Like acting basically. Ever since I discovered ateez i can't look at other performances the same way because my standards have been lifted so high. So I think after them I won't be able to get back into kpop ever. But I don't want that to happen anytime soon because these boys just started their journey and they have a lot so show to the world. I just hope the world listens.
ATINY! Absolutely you said everything I wish I could say but my mind is soo unorganized lmao. But yes I just can’t get over Ateez! I’m a semi casual listener but everything about them is just sooo talented. They genuinely love performing and it shows. But dang they’ve been overbooked lately and they BETTER NOT have a comeback with everything they’ve been having to do. But that may just be my opinion. Also they’ve gotten hate?? Oh and did you hear about Mingi and San is now Covid free?! Best news ever!!!
@@anyone1111 Hii and omg thank you reading that long ass comment I really didn't think anyone would haha. It's like 4 am in my country so I'll probably regret writing all that in the morning lol but I'm glad you took the time to reply! Honestly yeah they've been super busy these past months and I can't imagine how exhausting it must be for them so I want them to take this whole summer as a break or even a little more. But I know the members have so much energy to do stuff they probably won't be able to sit their ass down for too long. I just hope if they do plan to make a comeback soon, that it's around September - October - November. I did hear about San and mingi and I'm honestly sooo happy they can finally all be together as 8 again after almost a year. It's been a rough year for them but now they'll be able to be back stronger than ever! Also sadly yes its true they're getting a lot of hate as of recently... Mostly on Twitter and tiktok. And it's unwarranted too! They don't even do anything and somehow they become the punching bag of every kpop stan out there. It's honestly very upsetting sometimes to see the comments people make about their singing and dancing and facial expressions. I've seen it all... From ableist comments to death threats to people trying to trend for them to disband. It got to the point one of the members had to make a statement to tell the fans not to worry about the death threats he was getting but I know he must have been affected by them because we're all human and that's horrible. Anyway it's been some rough months so I hope it gets better now that they're taking a break
Hm yeah that is true I think kpop will be moving towards a better direction. Sometimes I feel its oddly hypocritical that we eye kpop so closely but never did/do the same for the western market which I think stems from the fact that power is in a way more split up (like the record label has not the ultimate power over you) but in the end power monopols probably are just as prevelant? Idk I'm always amazed at how little I know about how the industry works and how there seems to be no interest when for kpop it seems to be almost the only interest. I hope they will improve on the "scandals" they are mostly laughable and not even scandalous. I think in the west we have seem improvement of the tabloid media too like in the early 2000s the way young stars especially women were treated was so so horrific (and often times it still is). Way to go for entertainment all over the planet Ig
When I was a teenager, around 12-13, I was really REALLY into Justin Bieber. It was the peak time to be into him, 2012. Most of my family made fun of me for it, but I have a cousin in particular that loved demeaning me for liking "commercial music". He was into Paramore and Coldplay so he felt superior than everyone else (he's a better guy now). However, when I was 12 I remember one time when he was with his girlfriend (who shared the same music taste) and they basically started listing all the reasons why I'm dumb because I like Justin Bieber and why he sucks. I got so frustrated I started to cry. Keep in mind this where two 16 year olds basically bullying a 12 year old... For liking the most popular pop star at the time
Thanks for sharing! I can really relate to what you said. I remember some people (older adults) bullying me for liking Hannah Montana when I was around 12 that it actually made my cry. Like don’t people have anything better to do? /sigh
Happy july 23rd to all the Directioners out there, what a fitting video. One Direction were my whole life when I was 12, I still have a box with all of my shirts and posters and merch in general, I even asked my parents to allow me to skip school for the premiere of their movie and I remember waiting in the line for 8+ hours with my friends, it's still such a cool memory to me, maybe a little cringy at times but that fandom helped me to make friends when my social anxiety was at it's worst so I treasure my time as a crazy screaming fangirl
I think the baiting is also made for the for the fans to be able to self insert into the member being touched. Shipping between members comes in here too where the “bottom” in the story is meant to be self inserted into. The female fans don’t want them to be with another woman but want to project how their favorite boy would hypothetically interact with them.
Holy, I didn't know N Sync and Backstreet Boys were abused by Lou Pearlman. Dang. Also thank you for defending and critiquing girls' loves of boy bands
As a 30-something gay man, my first crush was Brian Littrell from the Backstreet Boys, followed by Nick Lachey in 98 Degrees. I always saw boybands as a safe way for straight girls and gay guys to have their first crushes when they're too young to actually date. That's why boyband guys often give off a non-threatening vibe. I did read slash fanfiction that paired up the NSync/BSB/98 Degrees guys with each other and various male fans so the 1D stuff and later the BTS shipping isn't new at all.
The hilarious fact to me about people who see "fangirls" as frivolous and dumb who only care about looks and not the music just makes me laugh. Especially for K-Pop. As a lesbian, every K-Pop fan I know is LGBTQIA+ in some regards and we all love the boy bands and girl bands in every way because they are talented. The industry really hates anything women and girls are interested in but still want to make money off of them
Interestingly, as much as there obviously are flaws in the kpop industry, it’s really the only industry that seemed to respect me as a fan. At least they actually want to cater to young women without being ashamed of it! They’re ahead of the west in that way, weirdly enough
I do somewhat disagree with a few statements made here. I've never liked boybands growing up. Not just because of internalized misogyny but it's always seemed as if the industry itself never took boybands seriously. So the industry rather just make mediocre songs with above average looking teenage boys and that's it. Secondly, we could say the gender bending is used to make themselves seem less threatening to "young" female audiences. It feeds into the idea that only teenage girls like kpop. I think its just like how women find men who cook attractive. These men are comfortable with their masculinity, and aren't constantly berating women and femininity to prove their worth. Flamboyant men who are unbothered by their masculinity have always been extremely attractive to adult women. What's also appealing is the catering boybands do for the female gaze that men usually don't. So I don't think the reason why girl groups don't do well is because of patriarchy, it's just men are already catred to. Perhaps because women are financially free, women cater to their own value systems since they aren't tethered to men, and hence also prefer beautiful men. As exploitative the kpop industry seems, It seemed like the industry actually cared about their fans without disrespecting their intellect and admiration. Boybands weren't just marketed to young 13 year Olds, but even adult women with day jobs. Kpop boybands just kept improving their art and I feel like the west does a shitty job marketing entertainment to young women. It's a tragedy how stereotypes and misogyny left western boybands completely under developed.
I’ve always been fascinated how these fans would act around famous people especially the ones who has the delusion that could possibly date their favorite celebrities and all the other crazy stuff they do
The concept had existed prior, just not as four boys put together. You saw the same phenomenon for single singers like Elvis or Frank Sinatra before that... and before the girl fans were called Teeny Boppers they were called Bobby Soxers.
I absolutely loved this video! As a frequent boyband fan (my current favorite is BTS) I learned a lot from this video and your thoughts put a lot of ideas I had surrounding boy bands into perspective. I love how well you explained and went about some of these difficult topics. Also, you clearly did your research! Btw that pic at the end is from one of my favorite Disney channel movies, Pixel Perfect 😌
I would argue that young women liking boybands wearing makeup because it's "less threatening that adult masculinity" isn't entirely true. "Traditional" heteronormative male beauty standards are forced on men and women regardless of their age, women especially aren't given options of different types of men they can find attractive that are seen as socially acceptable in the eyes of cishet men. Different FlAvOuRs of male beauty arent represented in wider media esp in western countries. As an adult, I find men with glamorous appearances and makeup much more visually appealing to me that a beefy man wearing ralph lauren. Being socialised as a cishet woman, i appreciate that process of getting dressed up.
Thanks for the video. It is something that I talked about with my sisters. I am 56 and still like boys bands along with other bands and artist genres of music. My current favorite boy band is BTS. But I screamed and lost it when another band Cooheed and Cambria dropped a song along with BTS. So both Permission to dance and Shoulders are on my play list. Bottom line I love music and I don't think it's fair to judge me or the artist no matter the gender or genre or age or race. Music is a very powerful and personal experience. Also people forget an important fact. Artist work for a huge industry. That means money...and when it comes to money every industry has its ups and downs with corruption and greed. Artist are miss treated and abused because of greed either on the company side, parents and sometimes the artist themselves and yes fans. That part of the music industry I do not like. But it is what it is and hopefully things change faster. Thank you
I’m not going to lie. Whenever I see older women into music that leans so heavily into the visuals and sexualisation of younger men, i can’t help but think they’re lying when they say it’s not sexual.
@@rosedalinevaletine6931 it’s possible I’m older too but I got into Kpop Bc their music is dope. I also chnage bias groups based on how their music; I stopped being an exo l jsut Bc their music didn’t appeal to me like NCT does and that’s just that so it is possible to jsut like kpop for music and visuals and flashiness is jsut seen as icing to the cake
The only boy band I've stanned is Seventeen, but I was also a fan of VIXX, B.A.P., and C-CLOWN. I think Seventeen's ongoing reality show, Going Seventeen, is lots more comfortable to watch because you can tell the members really enjoy participating in it. In fact, they brainstorm and pitch the episode concepts themselves! And when a member isn't particularly feeling a certain episode, that's acknowledged and accepted. They'll enjoy another episode. Even the fans on Twitter don't make an issue of it.
I think I understand the frustration against queerbaiting here... But like, sometimes what white americans call queerbaiting doesn't take into account the different cultural norms for one thing. But also the corporations are at fault here, I have seen people get angry at the stars and call them straight and stuff and its like..... Even a straight guy is allowed to wear makeup guys... And we should let artists (bc they're people!!) Dress and interact w their friends how they please... Its something that frustrates me bc its so complicated
The fact that gender expression is confused for sexuality is heteronormative thinking in the first place. Wearing make-up doesn't equal any sexuality. Liked this comment.
Yes! It's also very homophobic to assume someone is queer by judging their style or behavior etc. Sadly many people don't realize that. The nonly thing that makes someone gay is when they are attracted to the same gender. I really don't understand why there's still people who say being "feminine" is gay...
Yes, 100% this. Kpop bands are almost certainly not “queerbating”. Korea is progressing fast but it’s still not a super safe place to be gay. The last thing they’d want for revenue is for people to start scandals over it. Korean culture is very pro touching and overall closeness between same-sex friends, guys hold hands or even touch each other’s butts and it’s considered absolutely no big deal. I think “queerbating” has been an extremely overused term in western culture and most accusations of it tend to stem from ignorance. Even if there’s some kind of joke about two kpop guys being in a relationship, it’s almost certainly just supposed to be funny because it’s unexpected, and not taken seriously. People need to lose the shipping goggles and realize not everything is intended to be taken literally or read in a sexual way.
Also yes, femininity in a man is NOT the same thing as being gay. It’s also not the same thing as being transgender or even necessarily non binary. It is inherently extremely against the best interests of the LGBTQ+ community to claim that a man doing something traditionally feminine means he’s leading us to believe he’s LGBTQ+. It’s very homophobic, transphobic, and offensive to non-binary people to equate these things, as well as rude to the individual involved to accuse him of “leading people on” just because he expressed himself how he wanted to express himself.
My favourite boyband is BTS and I am always grateful to have discovered them because they had helped me a lot in my life. I also like to think God was the one who send these boys to me because the timing was just so perfect, my life was at my lowest when I started listening to their music and it had helped me tons. I never see them as love interests but more as an old friend. I actually used to be a shipper haha but I don’t ship them anymore because after following them for a long time I realised they were just very close friends but if there are any secret relationships, I don’t mind that at all ❤️
I don't think I can collect my thoughts to form a more cohesive comment, but thank you so much for this video!! I really appreciate that you took such a nuanced and thorough approach to this topic. As someone who has been into boy bands for most of my life, I really appreciated it. It gave me a more well-rounded view of boy bands, informed me about things I had never really heard before, and made me feel less ashamed for liking boy bands just because they're shallow or whatever. As for boy bands?? I'm like you and really got my start with the Jonas Brothers. Then I had a Beatles phase in middle school, which definitely informed my not-like-other-girls-boy-band-shunning persona in high school. After my first year of college I discovered BTS and have been caught up in kpop ever since. I listen to several of the boy groups and have started branching into girl groups, but would have to say BTS and Stray Kids are my current favorites. Both groups write and produce songs that are about topics like mental health and struggling to find one's way in life, which I greatly appreciate. I haven't really listened to Exo much, but after watching this video and hearing you talk about them I think I'll check out more of their music!! Again, thank you so much for the video and I look forward to watching more of your videos 💜
I love how you express and lay out your ideas and the direction you take them on. I became a fan of exo since 2012 because of their aesthetic and concepts and their music. The way different types of creative processes converge with them has always amazed me (music, dance, film, photography, design, fashion, makeup, even storytelling). At that time I was 12 and couldn't really put into words all of these and I navigated the communities as an average fan complimenting their looks and whatnot. Then I became an adult and never stopped being their fan simply bc I couldn't lmao, the work they keep releasing is just always so good (solo or not) and, at my 20s, i just feel proud to be their fan because their work is always of top quality (music/aesthetic wise).
I think the thought that only teenage girls enjoy boybands is a logical fallacy. I’m sure that other groups of people enjoy them but are heavily discouraged from stating so publicly, because these things are considered “teenage-girl” things. This then appears to reduce the boybands to their physical appeal and not their art. It’s a cynical cycle.
Really good video, Thanks for the inclusion of the Jonas Brothers! They were the first band I was obsessed with and I've seen many people completely forget about them when talking about boy bands history in general, they had a impact even if it was shorter than other bands.
So I love your video because it dives into a deep look at how boybands were and are still conceptualized, but I need to clarify the Taemin part because as I saw your previous videos, there is a consistency of using Taemin as an example, which is fine and it makes me happy because not many people remember he...exists i guess? But with Criminal, the core concept isn't romanticizing domestic abuse, but rather portraying the process of someone being in an abusive relationship or an abusive situation in general, and then finding some actions from the abuser appealing and sympathetic and can't help but falling into Stockholm Syndrome. This is Taemin playing both the victim and abuser roles to portray it as an autobiographic look into himself how it shapes his identity and in a way, forces an identity on him and gradually he accepts and falls in love with it, like a Stockholm Syndrome patient. He is aware that the concept and theme is VERY heavy thus why he plays both role himself. The lyrics have his input in it and he never encourages fan to overlook his flaws if he ever show them and they even should dump him if he messes up. He explained a lot in his commentary on the MV and I for once think a deeper look in using examples is needed? ruclips.net/video/L6snbR67ljs/видео.html Again, thank you very much for your hard work.
I still find that weird that Girl Groups has diminishing returns, I love Girl Groups from the Spice Girls to Loona to indie stuff like Muna to the boy bands (even I grew up with Five, BSB etc.) so its odd to be me that the biggest girl groups Blackpink and Little Mix are bashed when boy bands can get away with it. Great video btw.
I think BP is a completely different story. Yes they're bashed unnecessarily but there are pretty fair criticisms that have more to do with the company rather than the girls themselves.
Other things I would like you could’ve touch on (even tho I know the video is already really long) • The member D.O. from exo who isn’t the “typical idol” and openly said that he and the other members often thought about quitting, never showed his abs and said that he doesn’t have them, comes of as “awkward” in certain moments • Many Korean gg like Twice or Apink have a really big male audience and often performed at the military • Not only is Kai often the center but is mostly the one that gets outfits like crop tops and he said himself that he is only comfortable wearing them while dancing but not during interviews • instead of taking Kai and Taemin as an example for idols that debuted at a young age, I would’ve choose NCT Dream and the member Mark who is in so many groups
I got into kpop last year, before that I used to think that kpop was all manufactured and that the industry was terrible so I didn’t wanna listen to it (this was all propagated by all the “the dark side of kpop” videos). I used to bash the genre thinking I was superior because I listened to “real music” which was so stupid and karma bit me in the butt. Finally I watched a few music videos and listened to a couple of songs and I FELL IN LOVE, not because they were handsome but because of their music and performances, funnily enough my first boy group was EXO, I still love them but my favorite groups is Seventeen. love their whole discography and performances, they work so hard writing, producing, singing and choreographing their music it’s incredible, if you have never heard of them check them out. Now kpop is one of my favorite genres and It helped me so much in so many ways, everyone should give things a try before judging because of the popular opinion.
As a woman going into the entertainment industry the last section before the conclusion gave me a headache. Like it is so much harder with all the backlash women get especially with age because that specific element doesn’t allow woman to grow. It’s getting better with more and more appreciation for female performers who’s fan bases grow with them but I hope it rapidly gets better.
I'm happy you made a video on this. I feel like guys aren't able to express themselves because of society and theirs a double standard they have to face. I did a essay on this but but couldn't find much research.
I wish there were more POC examples in this video(i.e. black bands, Indian bands, indigenous groups etc.)... but I did enjoy the video essay! Thank you for taking the time to put it together.
I've been into boy bands since I was about 14. First I liked rock groups, later in 2010 I discovered KPOP through SHINee, and I've been supporting them until this day. I'm 31 years old, and I don't even feel bad about it. Boy bands are versatile and fun. And I like what you said: the endless content that comes out of a KPOP group is insane, and the members grow up with you. KPOP boy groups beat western ones, big time.
Another great video! As a current kpop/lifelong pop music fan, I found myself nodding and saying “yess” like every few seconds while watching this lol And my favorite boy group at the moment is Monsta X!
7:15 I was in that meet & greet in Spain, it was in Madrid, I waited for hours in the very hot Spanish summer under the sun. I remember it as one of the scariest experiences of my life, and I didn't even get to meet them in the end.
I grew up listening to david bowie, the beatles and queen cause my parents made me listen to them a lot and still now they're among my favorite artists. Growing up and going to middle school I was a lot into 5sos and one direction and pop punk bands, they were all male, then, in 2013 I started listening to little mix and to ariana grande...it was really refreshing to me, because, even tho I liked listening to songs that talked about maybe a boy being in love with a girl and other things, I really liked the other side, a girl talking about how she loves a boy or how she wants to feel empowered and so on, it really helped me having female figures in my adolescence. It's really a shame to me that the most of the boys that maybe like boybands and male singers (even more now with kpop being so popular) are considered gay or else, as if boys couldn't like boybands and their music, as if us fans are there only for their looks. And I remember shipping and other things were a real big issue even back in one direction and 5sos days and looking back to it I feel like this isn't really our business, like if they're affectionate with each other maybe they only have a good bonding, they don't have to be boyfriends to share some hugs or else... The over sexualisation is something I always hated, I remember during exo's lotto era, baekhyun was really thin cause he had to go thru a strong diet and I see always a lot of ppl sexualizing his looks from that period only cause he looked "sexier", when in fact he was going through a vary bad time and this feels very sad, cause it makes me realize ppl cares only about the looks the most of the time and doesn't care about how the artist feels...
my first boyband were the jonas brothers! 2nd and probably last is bts, they really caught me off guard 😭 also i think the blueprint for the "each member has a distinct style and personality" thing started with the spice girls. simon cowell repeated that with one direction, little mix and fifth harmony, it was almost painfully obvious
oh my God! the beatles were pioneers in all this without knowing it, I remember seeing ads for them on pinterest where they were sold as "george the sensitive and mysterious" "ringo the funny" "paul the cute and tender" "Jonh the leader and the bad boy "and John saying that his best audience were teen girl because they are very passionate and obsessive, and that is why they wrote songs dedicated to girls, the same with the haircuts, the outfits, everything was planned! And never forget that to date the world does not forgive that John married Yoko (and had to hide his first marriage) and that a fan murdered him. Definitely beatlemania and the obsession for these guys was something from another world. The fans must learn that boy band members are real people, fans do not own the lives of those boys
Omg i had totally forgotten the origin story of EXO lmao. Loved this video, it was so well done. Also my favourite boyband is Teen Top and VIXX. We stan
I'm not a fan of any boybands but the things I've seen on Wattpad is concerning. Writing smut about celebrities is terrible and shouldn't be so normal.
22:13 Sam Smith is non binary, (maybe you didn't know) they aren't part of 'male artists' category.
Thanks for letting me know. I didn’t know that and I should have double checked. I’m sorry and will be more careful next time.
I didnt know he was nb! Thx for letting us know
@@heatherlee2967 They're non binary and their pronouns are they/them
@@eel2265 Oops. Thank you for reminding me of their pronouns. Sorry for literally misgendering them in a comment about them being enby
But in what category should Sam be putted in then?
“4 to 5 male singers”
me who likes nct: hm
And I adore all 23 guys for really specific reasons 😭🤡
true😂
Hmmmm🏃🏻♀️
them carats staring too
Enough members to each have a dinosaur assigned to them.
I would say fetishization is another reason Korean boy bands are so popular. We still see the average Asian look as novel so it ups that excitement and attraction factor but sometimes that slides into objectification/ownership.
I guess that's why I think K-pop boy bands are sexy, even though I'm a black metal fan and used to seeing men "death-growling" in leather, armor, spikes, and "corpse paint, " lol!
@@darlalathan6143 yeah, things that are different from our personal norms are definitely sexy! We just have to be careful to not pass into the "fetishization" side of admiration/lust for them... I think one way to do this is by individualizing them, like "oh I find THIS singer sexy', or this band is sexy bc of XYZ, but not saying, "All Kpop boys are sexy!" or something like that. Not saying that's what you're doing, btw. It's mostly a note for myself lol
I think this one is over reaching. Is it that strange to like band from other country to the point you have to give reason like fetishization?
@@shintapp I didn't imply it was strange actually I said it was normal or even expected. It's natural for us to be attracted to novelty and to people who look different from us because genetically admixed people produce healthier offspring. I simply said that makes us more prone to fetishizing others which can be a factor in people acting like they own them (they become fetish items). Overall that isn't what's happening, just something to keep an eye on. I would suggest not watching critique videos if you can't handle critiques.
Why would you see your own peiple as novel?
life's too short to pretend you don't like a bunch of pretty boys or/and girls singing catchy songs and looking cute
very true
And you are also allowed not to like them. I was personally bullied because I DID NOT liked boys bands.
@@amdiary7 that's scary to be honest
@@rosie-qm3jn ikr, it was just my personal tastes and I didn’t even talked about my music tastes but just because I didn’t acted overly excited over One Direction and other boy bands they decided to bully me for almost 3 years until they grew up and grew out of their phase...
@@k....j1496 being bullied for not liking boy bands ? Cuz if that was what you meant, yeah, that’s scary.
The ships! The fact that people ship them and everything they do together fans will be like “They’re having a secret affair!” Like no, they just like each other and even if they were secretly dating it’s none of your fucking business
PREACH! Like can people not make EVERYTHING so sexual? Like sheesh they’re young let them just ~ exist.
I actually feel like the agencies love to play on that and instill moments for shipping material. Is that just me ?
@@TheLily97232 absolutely not I feel the same way. They pair them up in games have them sit close together, I wouldn't even surprised if they get briefed beforehand about cuddling or holding hands and such
ur username tho o3o
Yeah shipping real life people is so weird to me, and it feels invasive, like ship characters from tv shows and movies all you like, but real people? That's nasty. For example Tom Holland and Zendaya, I dont even follow them on social media or keep up with them but I knew ppl shipped then, and now I think they're dating and I can't help but feel like they were pressured into it by their managers and fans. It's creepy as hell. And just in general when fans care way to much about their idols personal lives, honestly even with my favorite creators it's great to hear about them getting married or having kids or whatever, but I'm not actively trying to find out what's up with them because frankly I don't care. I love their content, music, art, but their lives are their lives. Period.
Ngl having Exo here as an example makes my day as a 22 year old Exol who thought she was too old for boy bands...
23 here, I can relate.
lol 22? please, there are so many people in their 30s, 40s and older into kpop nowadays
@@julianasilva6946 I know :) it's the cutest but I am just 22 so that was my experience
Same i think the exols grew along with the group.
Do we live the same life? I felt this so bad
Yeah teen girls just can’t like anything huh? If you like rock you’re a ‘faker’ if you like punk you’re ‘not like other girls’ and if you like pop you’re ‘basic’ sigh
Everybody hates us and the proof is that there's no male equivalent to any of those labels
@@somethingunusual8456 Faker and basic are unise though.
@@DrGregoryHouseIT technically yeah, but in this context you never hear males referred to in that way
@@DrGregoryHouseIT basic is never used for men. Ever. The only thing they might be called is poser, but rarely
because if god forbid if you grow up thinking your interests are valid and not shallow you might become a confident person who thinks yourself at par with men,we can't have that here :)
I don't think that women who like feminine men do so because they're intimidated by masculinity, but because they find traditional masculinity just boring.
Well "traditional masculinity" is a bit intimidating tbh. I would prefer a man who is vulnerable, open-minded and himself is figuring who he is compared to a traditional one. At least first one is not scared of being equal with partner, experimenting with style, and being emotionaly open. As I typed I realized that I just described a psychologically mature person that our society denies rights for men to be...
@@ИмяФамилия-ф2д8ш in my opinion the problem is that people deny the importance of emotional intelligence and maturity and value charisma and chaos over it. Like many people expect toxicity from every relationship cause it makes it "fun" when in reality they just dont wanna put in the work and achieve a healthy relationship.
@@goldenapple3952 yeah, sometimes if men won't treat themself as "traditionaly masculine" (unable to handle rejection, not consulting with partner, expecting being treated like a "boss/provider" in relationships, etc) then women will. Like c'mon girls you deserve a mature person with a character for a partner, not an animal...
For me it's probably both 🤣
honestly i think a lot of women just find that look more attractive. like this idea that they'll grow out of it and like 'real men' is a little hm.
There's also the heteronormative way of thinking "young girls like boybands because they're hot" like... lesbians exist...? lol I'm a lesbian and although all I listen to now is kpop girl groups, back in the day I was a huuuge One Direction stan (still consider myself a fan) because they really help me love myself and feel accepted. I grew up in a Catholic household, and my whole existence to them was wrong and sinful. So coming to One Direction, seeing the way they accepted their LGBT+ fans, and how they had safe spaces for them in their concerts, was everything to me. Nowadays it might be basic human decency (which it is), but back in 2014/15 it was a huge deal to me since I thought I didn't deserve that love and acceptance. Also, thank you so much for talking about the queerbaiting problem in kpop AND the struggles girl groups face in the misogynist society we live in. Thank you!! Much love from Argentina!
PS: thanks for the insightful comments
LOL ikr! Also the way people live to second guess and dismiss lesbians when they’re a fan of a boy group or a male celeb of some sort is very annoying. When I was a huge ARMY people were always on my case about how I’m not really a lesbian cuz I really really like a boy group. But when my gay male friends hype up their female celeb favs nobody second guesses them at all. In fact, it seems expected for them to idolize some female celebrity in some way. Misogyny, misogyny, misogyny…
I also only listen to gg music now LOL
ASGAKSD yo soy de Argentina también y AMÉ tu comentario, qué linda tu experiencia ♥ Y tenés toda la razón, la heteronorma pisando fuerte como siempre, frustrante y lamentable. Pero la vamos a seguir tirando!
Which is funny because people assume there are tons of gay guys loving Boybands, especially when it's kpop. But as usual lesbians go under the radar huh
+
My favourite boy band is the Jackson 5. They were probably the first boy band that BLACK teenage girls could scream at. Everyone knows their songs for one and if the band never existed; we would have never had the talent that is Michael Jackson.
Um no Frankie Lymon and the teenagers were the first group.
Lisa H they didn’t call the j5 the first
I'm not a fan of MJ as a person but the Jackson 5 were a real game changer for sure.
@@angel127_ They did call them the first.
@@lisah8438 the first group that black teenagers could look up to is what they meant, not the first in general
Sometimes lyrics aren’t just about romantic love and people just assume that it is because it’s a boyband?? Like Taemin’s álbum is literally called “Never gonna dance again” and it’s about his own ambition and how it consumes him. I just think that people should not just think that shallow lyrics are all young girls want to listen???, especially in kpop we have all this deep concepts and lyrics that talk about sooo much more than romantic love, for example Silver Spoon by BTS, but there are a lot of other boybands that have really good ones😐
Yeah! The whole Stray Kids' discography talks a lot about coming-of-age struggles and mental health. I find it amusing!
@@5-starmichelin760 Your user😂 That line of God’s menu lives in my mind rent free, and yes, Stray Kids Side Effects for example is a really good song I think people look past that one, I also stan TXT and the first thing I liked about them is the lyrics not that they are good looking
@@5-starmichelin760 ayo a stay???
HOUSE OF CARDS BY BTS. all i’m gonna say
stan talent, stan taemin 😇
Even as an EXO fan, I really wasn’t expecting anything from kai’s solo mini album, but it really blew me away and has been at the top of my rotation ever since it came out. Just a fantastic, cohesive work that you can listen to no matter what mood you’re in. I hope he and everyone else who worked on the project are really proud of how it turned out.
Thanks for this great video! I never let myself enjoy boy bands in my teens because I heavily internalized messages that it was really uncool to like stuff made for teen girls. I’m glad that in my mid twenties and continuing to now in my late 30s, I could let that go. Despite all the potentially problematic aspects, listening to boy bands can just be a really fun, positive experience.
Edit: how could I forget to say that my favorite boyband is SHINee! 💎 ❤️
Awwww fellow Shawol!!!! 💎💎💎💎💎
even as a Kai stan i was unexpectedly blown away by his solo hahahaha. i love the boy and always found him extremely talented but idk why i was still surprised how much i personally loved all the songs. also aye another sm stan (my ult group is nct but also stan exo and shinee)
We Shawols united out of love for our boys and against the blatant sexism of the industry 💗
not even a kai stan just a casual supporter but his mini album has been on rotation ever since it came out its just fkn beautiful. the whole album and its promotion was a complete piece of art i cant describe how gorgeous the direction of it is, and to think that this was such a personally-involved project for him makes me really admire his artistry and creativity. dismissing kpop as 'teen girl music' invalidates all of the hard work and creative genius of artists like kai and its sad to see
This has nothing to do with the video but your content keeps getting better and the production value? Is that what it's called lol keeps improving. Congrarulations!
Right? I swear she got a new camera for this video..... also, it's like... twice as long as her older videos? I hope that helps her out in the algorithms because she's great.
thank you so much!
@@paulscouten1868 yess
@@paulscouten1868 yes it has
@@CheyenneLin you're welcome
I discovered Bts in 2015 after stumbling across their video for Dope. I had only seen a couple kpop videos before but I thought that these guys were really cute and the song was really good. I started to get more interested in them when I watched their interviews and vlogs specifically because of the way they interacted with each other. I had never seen a group of guys be so affectionate to each other before and it made me feel safe in a way. Even now when I’m feeling sad I go back to my favorite videos of theirs for comfort.
I think for me its their bond and chemistry, they really seem like they're actually friends who just happen to work together and you don't see that very often.
I'm an exoL and i've kind of grown out of my fangirl phase but not their music istg i love like 90% of their songs so no it's not just because they're handsome (which they absolutely are) but they're amazing singers and performers
yes!
Same. I started stanning them as a teenager. Now I'm doing job and living on my own. And I'm still into them deeply. Not because I fantasize them as my love partner or crush, but because of their music and this deep respect for them for making my teenage years better and having a great impact on my personality as well.
Lol in middle school my bff went from kpop boy bands like SHINee to emo boy bands like Falling in Reverse to becoming the biggest Directioner. Apparently there was a lot of overlap between these fandoms despite their dramatically different genres and images.
I think it is existence of stable and developed cultures in those fandoms. These communitied are small but really tight as their music won't appeal to general public so it feels comfy and welcoming in here.
At one point in my life (probably 2011) I was listening to all three 😭
the amount of directioners i know that also like billie eilish and frank ocean just shows how music taste is not to put in a box lmao
I’ve seen a strange relationship and shared respect growing between metalheads and kpop fans too. Probably from the fact that both of their musical interests have been kind of frowned on, looked down on, and the fans stereotyped by the media and others. So surprisingly, I’ve come across quite a lot of kpop fans who are metal heads too.
a lot of people who had an emo phase end up becoming kpop stans later on (like me lol)
As someone who was an exo-l at a very young age when I didn't have a good relationship with my parents or really anyone to look up to, I saw them as almost big brothers. I looked up to them for being hard working and talented and wanted to be like them. Their nonthreatening masculinity made them sort of comforting male figures for me.
Yeah, I’m a BTS fan (think EXO is super cool too!) and I’ve always seen them as serious role models. They’re kindhearted, intelligent, hardworking, and tough all at the same time, and they represent exactly what I want to be as a person. I think I would feel the same way regardless of my sex, they’re just really inspiring people and I’ve seen straight male kpop fans say the same kinds of things.
really enjoyed this! I remember when kai talked about feeling uncomfortable in a crop top off stage and I've always wondered just how often they have to deal with that for the sake of a performance. also pixel perfect for the movie at the end!
👏👏👏⭐️
rather than uncomfortable, kai described himself as being embarrassed in crop tops offstage--he wasn't used to showing his torso in that way. also, kai is someone who does something "for the sake of a performance" to give himself satisfaction before anybody else. the first time he ever wore a crop top it was a stage outfit HE chose and says he enjoys wearing various clothing and conditioning his body(like bulking up for superm's tiger inside) to make a concept and stage be shown at it's best. kai thinks of it all as an art so he doesn't exactly "deal" with it.
Bo said in an interview that he felt very bad when Justin Bieber was in one of his shows and he was singing that song.
Thank you for this video. Great work 👏👏👏
I didn't entirely agree with Cheyenne's criticism of that song, personally. I always saw it much more as a criticism of the music industry/executives who fabricate these ideas as a way to capitalize on the low self-esteem of young girls who just don't know any better yet. I never heard it as a criticism of the girls who like those artists at all, moreso just being honest that they're too young to be able to comprehend that they're being manipulated.
But yeah, I can see how it devalues the work of the artists themselves, and can definitely understand why Bo would feel bad singing it in front of Justin Bieber. I just don't think it's accurate to say that he was insulting the girls who enjoy this kind of music.
@@maggiedk I agree with you. I came to understand her point in the video, but I thought it was a little one-sided to paint the song as only bashing the girls for listening to it. Bo was obviously acting as an exploitative, disgusting asshole and he was pretty much representing the music industry. If anything it seemed to me like he was critiquing the way the industry/artists think of and treat their fans. That said, totally makes sense about the Justin Bieber hesitation. The point about both of them starting out very young from RUclips I think was also a fair comparison to make.
@@niyamitchell6818 exactly!!! You put that so well, thank you
that makes me feel a bit better, I was always pretty mad at him for being such a hypocrite in that song (he tends to write the same “sad boi” content a lot of the time and I’ve seen it appeal to his female fans, I don’t mean that he isn’t being genuine but he should acknowledge that he is also writing a lot of songs that appeal to people) and it was really rude to criticize people in that way. I do believe you if you feel he was playing a character, but I REALLY think that if someone’s playing a character that’s a “disgusting asshole” then they should really, really make it more clear that it’s just a character, because otherwise they just end up contributing to the message of the real assholes. I still feel that the song was a bit in poor taste, but if he really wasn’t trying to criticize the women that makes it a bit better. However, I also think it’s a bit dumb to judge artists for making music their audience likes, since making their audience happy is kind of an important goal for a lot of artists and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. And, as I said, Bo also makes music his audience likes. Sure he might consider himself more authentic but it’s unfair for him to judge others for making things their own audiences enjoy.
"Scream their puberty out to" I mean like boy bands and male celebrities, or celebrities in general, actually can be very helpful for processing puberty or romantic/sexual attraction and what those forms of attraction mean to you.
I am 22 and I have never been in a relationship before, but I have many times used male celebrities and some female ones to figure out who and what I like and dislike. In my Lifeview Paper that every senior at my college has to write before graduating, I ended up writing multiple pages about Kpop because it was a huge part of my development, and this is part of the reason why. I actually said in that paper that, in a way, SHINee was my first love! And in a way I was not wrong. They and other celebrities provided something to project ideas onto, and the fandoms provided a place for me to mutually process feelings with other people.
All that being said, I am certainly not in puberty anymore but I'm still weak for many men lol
Overall I firmly believe that boy bands (and celebrity crushes in general) can be an important and positive part of psychological development as long as the mindset of the fan is healthy
Now I'm gonna watch the rest of the video lol it's just that that is a very interesting topic to me
what you said is very true!
I used to judge girls who listened to justin bieber and one direction when I was 14 and deep into my "not-like-other-girls" phase... only for me to stan bts at 19 years old, so the joke's on me (also I was casually listening to kpop then, at that time, so that was also hypocritical on my part kdfljdsk). I am more of a girl group adjacent person nowadays, but when I was starting out getting more invested in kpop, I listened to bts, exo, nct and monsta x. now the boy groups I mostly listen to and like are bts, txt, shinee, the boyz, and enhypen.
I think when it comes to most "criticism" surrounding boy bands and their fandoms, there's some elitism and sexism that comes into play. first of all, it's elitist, bc people like to equate boy band music with "low-brow art" and "manufactured corporate bad" music or that their music is "vapid and meaningless", in contrast to other artists who are oh so "authentic" and "real". I used to fall into this dichotomy of thinking, but over time, I saw how toxic that way of thinking is. bc ultimately, music have to be deep or have meaningful lyrics to be good or artistic.
I know this "criticism" is levied against mainstream pop artists and kpop idols in general, but especially for boybands. it's as if you're saying that you can never be artistic, meaningful or deep if you're an "idol" or a boy band member. I can't speak for western boy bands, bc I was never into them, but I am pretty sure that some actual boy bands have some pretty meaningful songs too with good messages. when you look at kpop, there are members of boy groups who are in touch with their artistry. like jonghyun from shinee, the seventeen memebrs (especially woozi), and the bts members (especially the rapline - rm, suga and jhope).
and while I think that for the most part, most boy groups do have the usual "hey girl" lyrics, there are also boy groups who do make a lot of meaningful music. like I know bts and stray kidz have made some socially conscious and very personal music that isn't necessarily about love (though I am sure they have some love songs in their discography). bts have critiqued social norms, in songs like "no more dream" (the heavy expectations and pressures placed upon youth), "n.o." (the stringent education system) "go go" (consumerism and the socioeconomic anxieties of millenials + gen z's) and "baepsae" (elitism, socioeconomic gap across generations, basically an "ok boomer" song). on the other hand, while I am less familiar with their music, stray kidz have sung about mental health in songs like "voices" and "side effects" (I think). so while I also think that there's nothing wrong with meaningless "hey girl" love song type of lyrics, I also don't think it's fair to shrug off all boy bands and their music as vapid and valueless, bc there are boy bands who DO sing about important stuff. you just have to know where to look for them. boy bands are artists in their own right too. just bc they aren't whipping out a guitar and singing out raw lyrics, doesn't mean they aren't talented and that their output isn't art.
that said, while I also think that a couple of boy band fandoms do deserve to be called out when they cross the line, bc let's be real, they do a lot, I have something to say about how boy band fandoms tend to be criticized more as "rabid, obsessive and wild", and yet they aren't levied against male-dominated fandoms, like sports fans, who are guilty of the same things boy band fandoms do, and are sometimes arguably more destructive. it's another way of demeaning teenage girls, women and their interests.
edit: I wasn't able to expound on this originally, bc I thought I would breach character limit, but I clarified that I don't think that music should be "deep or meaningful" to be good, artistic or have value above. it's part of me tackling the elitist arguments and takes against boyband music. so yeah, sorry.
also, to add to my "some of these bad takes on boyband music + fandoms are sexist" argument, please tell me that I am not the only one who side-eyes that fact that boybands are only given "legitimacy" when they start gaining male fans. like the beatles obviously grew and improved musically, but they only were noticed and were given legend status when men started praising them. before that, they were dismissed bc girls liked them, when truth of the matter, they've always been good or talented.
sadly, this carries on that even the boyband members/artists and the fandom themselves believe this. there's this difference in treatment between male fans and female fans. sadly, some boyband members seem to treat their male fans better than their female fans, bc the fact that they had male fans apparently means that they are now "true" artists, bc see?? even men love them! also, I've seen my fair share of fangirls simp over fanboys or put them over the pedestal, for the same reason, that the fact that men starts liking their fave artists means that liking their artists isn't considered "uncool" or "cringe" anymore, plus the band can be recognized as "real" artists. like it doesn't matter if said male fan contributes less to the fandom, or isn't very creative or talented. more people will listen to him or praise him, just the fact that he gives the artist legitimacy.
bc apparently, "if a girl likes male artists, who coincidentally happen to be attractive, it's bc he's hot and she wants to date/marry him; but if a guy likes the same artist, it's bc he's talented and is in touch with his music" am I right??? smh
lol that comparison between rapid sports fans and boyband fans was NOT something I expected from this comment
The fact alone that it is demanded of music to be "deep" to be legitimate is just... I mean what do ppl expect it's the pop genre it's meant to be enjoyable and have a nice rhythm.
I really love the comparison of sports to kpop. I was just thinking about it bc it's not like teenage boys are delving into anything "deep" either it's just not called out like that. But yeah sports are a good comparison bc they are also not expected to grow out of "that phase" whereas for the most part ppl think only "little girls" could like boybands and women are expected to grow out of it.
@@heatherlee2967 Recently, an ARMY (xCeleste) made a great video comparing boy band fans to sports fans (in particular ARMY and BTS to sports fans), called "Difference Between Sports Fans and Boy Band Fans". I thinks it's really great, because it calls out a lot of the hypocrisy.
trivia love by BTS is one of the most beautiful love poems i ever seen, so even the love songs are meaningfull
@@yannatorres Yes, I would even say that to me pretty much all their love songs are meaningful. They all have a concept and some poetic ideas behind them, not basic like many others. I think in 'Savage Love' it was most apparent how the Korean lyrics are poetic and beautiful while the English ones are straight-forward and simple.
Loved your video Cheyenne! As a gay man in his early 20s, I think a reason why I have recently gotten into boy bands (primarily NCT) is because I now feel able to embrace the more inherently feminine aspects associated with the fandom, that internalised homophobia (rooted in sexism) once made me think of as shameful. It's honestly been quite liberating. Keep up the amazing work!
Thank god cause I’m so sick of folks not taking male sexualization seriously
It’s the way this started of with MAMA…. Your editing power ma’am, great way to set a tone
News flash: sexualizing guy groups for existing isn’t okay.
No they’re not in a relationship with each other and it’s NOT A SINGLE PERSON’S business otherwise.
Let them exist. This should all be common decency but they can’t even have just that which is so sad.
I know right, it’s insane how this isn’t just common decency among fans :(
why do i never see anyone say stuff like “yeah it’s a possibility they could be dating, but let’s not sexualize it or try to pretend it’s a fact” when it comes to idols, it’s always “uwu small gay bean” or “no, it’s impossible for an idol to be gay and dating their fellow member”. i agree with you, it’s not our business, however, i just feel like we should say that rather than “no, they’re straight and that’s final”, ya know? it is also 1:30AM for me so idk if i just said complete nonsense
@@whats_ur_damage7879
no I completely understand so thank you for adding a new perspective! I agree actually! And I’m sure that sadly if k pop idols date fans they’d get hate just like if they came out as gay. And that’s a lot of hateT^T.
I mean they get so much hate for the thought of dating so yeah I absolutely agree! I just wish everyone would let them live. To do what they want and their actions not being held over their head every second because of an image for the fans? To uphold or something.
Anyways hi moa!!!!
@@whats_ur_damage7879 i mean the obvious answer. because we're consuming them for content. we're not discussing groups as some sort of scholarly excercise, if we think two guys together is hot or relatable or whatever that's what we talk about. but keeping a dedicated fandom requires content so of course the groups keep feeding that side too
@@whats_ur_damage7879 Well it did happen in the Spice Girls when Geri admitted to having a Lesbian fling with somebody in the music business. And that someone turned out to be Mel C.
As fellow EXO trash and a Black woman who's listened to their music for years, I really appreciate your analysis and giving credit to the Black songwriters and producers behind their music - it's part of the reasons why I love their music, because Black people are directly involved and it's not the boys making a mockery of it, which unfortunately is the case with other groups in kpop. I have many words about Kai and his appropriation of hair and the group's colorism issues, especially in the early days, but that's for another time. As for the way people dismiss girls for liking boy groups it's just really hypocritical- teen and young adult girls hold so much cultural and economic power from our enjoyment of these groups, and if we're honest, The Beatles would've never have become the phenomenon they did without us. Girls deserve more credit than just being motivated by puberty and our hormones.
Girl….You need to research your men better before you tut them as the savior of Black music.
@@rosedalinevaletine6931 they literally
Mentioned the colorism and cultural appropriation of the black culture and that beign a problem in the beginning of their statement 🙄
Why is it bad that someone of another race would want to wear the same hair that black people wear
I think it’s important to recognize cultural things at play here, in Asia when they talk about “dark skin” they usually mean “tanned Asian people”, which they don’t tend to think looks good because it’s kind of associated with being lower class and working in fields (which is another problem but it’s a very old cultural thing) and premature aging. Sometimes kpop guys will poke fun at each other for being tanned, and that gets translated as them not liking dark skin in general, but there’s a world of difference between tanned Asian skin and the natural skin of someone of a darker skinned race. My point is that Koreans don’t necessarily have ANYTHING against the appearances of dark skinned people, they just don’t like the way their own skin type looks when tanned.
Also it’s important to remember that controversies about using black hairstyles almost always come from the artists admiring black artists but not knowing that imitating their looks could be considered hurtful. Because things like blackface never existed in their culture (as everyone is the same race) they have absolutely no idea that imitating someone (in a positively intended context, of course) could be considered offensive. They think the hair looks cool, and they assume that it will be obvious that they’re using it because they like and admire the artists they’re imitating. Obviously this doesn’t in any way stop the fact that it’s still hurtful to black fans, it’s still totally okay for them to feel upset-it’s still something that means terrible things to them. It’s just that the Korean artists themselves almost never have any bad intentions, they usually are actually trying to express a deep love and admiration for black artists, they’re just making major mistakes in doing it because of the cultural differences. Basically, it’s well intentioned and the artists don’t have racism in their hearts when they do it, but it’s important they learn from and fix their mistakes because it still hurts their fans and their first priority should always be to make sure that they’re not hurting anyone, especially people they’re supposed to love.
5sos is one of those groups that have talked about wanting to build a male fanbase to be taken more seriously which is so sad for me I'm a girl who supported them for so long
Yeah, it feels like our support is not respected (which actually isn't, unfortunately).
That’s extremely rude of them. I understand the reasoning behind it, as it isn’t technically about female fanbases being lesser, just about them being treated poorly, but it’s ultimately a VERY cowardly response to that sexism. Rather than disregarding the importance of their female fans, they should have tried to gain respect by doing respectable things and trying to cultivate a mature and intelligent image. That way they could have helped their female fans gain respect along with them, and maybe done some good for similar groups. Instead they chose to not challenge ANYTHING and just bow down to sexism. That’s kind of pathetic. Not saying they can’t still be a good group but that’s a terrible thing to say
when did they say that? i was into 5sos when i was younger and it’s fucked up that they don’t respect their female fans.
Chill female fans exist. How rude.
This video came out at the right time! I got into Kpop this year and I've been thinking a lot about the idol/fan parasocial relationship as well as my personal journey with Kpop and my identity as an Asian American woman. This whole video was so well done!
My favorite group is CIX. I hope anyone reading this checks them out! A lot of their songs are produced by the same people who produced some EXO songs. Their music is so good. I highly recommend their 3rd mini album title single "Jungle" and their debut single "Movie Star".
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You have amazing taste. You should try oneus and p1harmony if you like CIX
Heyy longtime kpop fan here & I feel you :’) In the past I’ve struggled a lot trying to figure out the fan-idol boundaries as well! I think it’s so easy to take too much consideration of what others WANT to think about kpop/typical fans & apply that to yourself, even if it isn’t necessarily true for you.
At this point, I’m like ... fuck it I’ll just let myself enjoy what I enjoy while 1) not overcomplicating this or letting it seep too deep into my real life, and 2) stilll understanding that this is an industry built to make money.
Sorry if this comment doesn’t make sense, it’s super late for me haha
PS love cix :)
Oh is it Marz?
@@qrcd Oh definitely, like, I want to gush about how cute or sexy these men are! Because....they're cute? And sexy? It doesn't mean I literally want to sleep with these men much less believe I have a shot to begin with! I understand it's the image I'm buying and consuming. I know whatever I'm getting out of Kpop is for me to enjoy and I don't have to justify it to anyone else. And like, the capitalist side of it is like...we live in a society 😂 like, yes, there are a lot of things going on in the Kpop industry, but that's why as fans we have to use our power wisely when we can but outside of that we're all just cogs caught up in this machine, will ppl lay off our backs and let us enjoy ourselves for once? like, it doesn't always have to be super deep.
As a fan of the 90s black R&B groups (Boyz II Men, Jodeci, etc) I think the main change korean producers took when taking the boy-band artist model was putting more of an emphasis on dancing rather than singing.
For a successful boyband you have to find guys with some talent in both but in reality, genius talent levels of both singing and dancing is really rare (people like Michael Jackson, Chris Brown, Usher) So producers have to work their best with the available talent pool.
So I think in general people can learn coreographed dancing faster then they can learn to sing really well. There's also a higher skill ceiling in singing as compared to dancing. When in live performance, singing can also be "dressed up" using technology.
The focus on dancing over singing I think reflects the medium of entertainment where in the past artists got all their income from radio and CDs, now artists have youtube and large concerts to get more of their income from coreographed dancing.
Interesting point! I would say New Edition, another epic 80s/90s boy band, focused a lot on dancing & inspired many future groups from Kpop to NYSNC to R&B. The boy bands that New Edition drew their style from, who were Black boy bands from the 50s/60s like The Temptations, were *always* on top of their dancing game 🔥
Today not a lot of bands dance & it's frustrating. Actually, not a lot of MALE bands or male performers dance period. But somehow it's always expected for FEMALE performers to put on a show - whether as a group or individual, rappers or singers, for some reason they're all expected to dance, sing, the whole lot.
@@ambriaashley3383 New Edition's one of my favorites too！You know how much fans loved R&B groups back in the day when they used to rock the Apollo theatre.
I prefer vocals over dancing but to me the group that had the best of singing and dancing was Troop. This is when they went on Arsenio Hall
ruclips.net/video/mC7-JIviZy4/видео.html
@@Michelle_Wellbeck thanks for that link!! Can't believe I never saw it before... 😯
growl still has the most impressive choreography I’ve seen in a music video
I’m only a minute in and this feels like it was specifically tailored to my interests ❤️ also your makeup is effervescent in this one
thank you so much!
i think another problem with girl groups at least in the US & UK is that labels purposefully stir shit up among fans and encourage speculation about who would be the most successful solo, to the point where many girl groups seem like they were created with the purpose of being pre-marketing for whoever is picked as the solo star, rather than to be a success in their own right, and this contributes to girl groups having a shorter lifespan. they're either pit against each other behind the scenes, or one girl is picked as the lead while the others are reduced to backup status, or both.
from what i've seen, kpop girl groups seem to be better at presenting the members as a unit rather than 1-2 leads + backups and i think that's more sustainable and appealing to fans in the long run.
on the subject of girl groups - they do sell. in japan. where they manage to have large male fandoms. i know the western perspective tends to view them as 'creepy' but there is a whole other discussion to be had there. boygroups do still sell better but the market for female idols there is much bigger.
Yeah, both often sell very well! There are also a lot of female fans of girl groups, Mamamoo is the strongest current example
@@engelberthovel8566 does mamamoo have a strong japanese fanbase? i don't think i've ever checked their numbers on that side
I don't have a favorite boyband and I barely listen to kpop but you made me interested in EXO honestly 😆 thanks for this video, it was insightful and great to watch. You're improving!!!
Same! I’m more interested in that group now
U should check out ateez and got7. Their dope
@@lisa.222 thanks for the recs!!
@@heatherlee2967 oh man you’re in for an amazing ride. Their B sides are the best in the industry. You’re going to lose so much money on their awesome Albums. If you’re new to kpop you should watch some album unboxing videos. Also check out their sub groups and member solo albums.
yesss pls u won’t regret exo 🥰
About being touchy..those idols are touchy since its is normal in Asia. But people fetishizing their friendships and being utterly convinced they're in love with each other is highly disturbing. Of course, the companies does nothing about it for that $$$.
However, if the same male idols wear such clothes and heavy makeup outside of their profession, they'll immediately be labelled as "gay" according to stereotypes. And of course, being labelled "gay" isn't done as a nice statement. Asia is still very much homophobic.
That's not to say the idols can't be gay, they can very well be gay, bi, trans, pan, queer, etc. There also might exist asexual idols too! I've seen a couple of idols change their gender to "they/them" as well. But you'll never know most of them because they can't come out due to idol standards and society.
Yup. It’s so sad. I’ve heard of an idol come out as ace which is so awesome and something to look up to especially as me being ace too. But I also heard some come out as gay! Anyways lol it sucks that NOBODY CAN BE FRIENDS like huh?! Do friends not exist in male groups? Why is everyone so bent on sexualizing them?
It sucks they’re toooo young and am even if they weren’t it still wouldn’t be okay EVER!
I wish I could change it or do something about it T^T
@@anyone1111 what does ace mean? just asking lol
@@ihatemostpeople6711 short for asexual
@@wjshty asexual in LGBTQ is when you're not attracted to anyone right?
@@ihatemostpeople6711 asexual is not being attracted to people sexually; you can still like guys, girls and enbys
not liking anyone romantically is aromantic
i haven't finished the video yet but i wanted to point out that Taemin didn't participate in the wakeboard challenge because he fractured his wrist! it actually seems right up his ally, i think he probably wanted to but couldn't
Haven't finished watching yet but this is amazing so far.
One thing that came to mind though about your comments about Taemin's Criminal at ca. 40:00 is that it seems Taemin is mostly aware that a lot of his fan base grew up with him and is now in their twenties which would make his current concepts more appropriate. Plus it seems like there are darker themes throughout all of his newer stuff as well as sexual themes that are a bit more out there than the typical kop boy band hip thrusting (on every album there seem to be at least 1-3 songs about BDSM with him being the submissive partner 😂. While that could be complete coincidence it could also be that this is just a way in which he likes to express himself considered he picks all the songs and concepts out himself in recent years) Overall I think Taemin has kinda evolved past typical boy band status at least in his solo work
god i love the way you talk and expose your thoughts and what you studied ! as an exo-l (and an idol enthusiast in general) i adore learning things through some of my favorite artists, thank you so much for your hardwork 💖
ps: my favorite boy bands are exo and seventeen, though i have been into 2pm and shinee recently too
Thanks for watching :)
Great video Cheyenne! I've grown up listening to boy bands my whole life; moved from NSYNC to the Jo Bros, Big Time Rush (who were around the same era as 1D and the Jo Bros) and now K-Pop with EXO, BTS, NCT, etc. Your video was really informative on the history of boy bands and it also gave me some food for thought of how I interact (and have interacted) with boy bands and the criticism that envelopes them. Your small section on EXO's showtime really took me back because back when EXO were my fav boyband, I watched that and I loved it, but I now notice a lot of the flaws with it that you pointed out and how it's just not the same watching it anymore knowing what EXO has been through and still goes through to this day. It's quite uncomfortable looking at a lot of idols' earlier debut material and how they just have to put up with certain things they later reveal at some point they were a bit weirded out by or not okay with. Same thing with some girl groups. I hope someday these groups can have a little bit more autonomy (which in some very small ways I feel they do kind of get now) but the fact they're so harshly "babysat" for lack of a better term by companies for $$$$ really sucks.
In so glad you liked the video!!! I remember big time rush too. I guess they were like nick’s late answer to the jo bros. I’m also glad you liked the section about exo showtime. It was a weird watch but I think it’s also cool how even though it’s staged it is a little time capsule of that time. I also think boy bands get more autonomy now (though still limited) and with EXO specifically as they’re all kind of veterans are I think are more free to do what they want nowadays, but I can imagine that the early must have been pretty intense
Ma’am this is a MEAL, thank you again for the amazing content ♥️
Thank you for watching!
as someone whose favorite boy band (it feels weird calling them this even though they started out that way) is The Beatles and who loves classic rock bands, this was a fascinating watch. The similarities between the boy band hype of the 90s-today and beatlemania is so mind blowing. I think the west has seen the rise and fall of boybands as One Direcrion disbanded and the attention and money of young people has shifted to kpop and expectations for what a boyband should be have risen past what the west is willing to put the effort into achieving. You just can’t put four guys and their instruments on stage anymore and sell hundreds of millions of records like The Beatles could. But with kpop you can make a group to last 7 years, sell thousands of albums, and then when you’re done you make another one and sell thousands more. It’s definitely a genius business model.
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11:54 the reason exo's trainee years are inconsistent is probably because they disclude "debut-expected" trainee years as their training period sometimes. There are a lot of "levels" of trainees, especially in the Big 3. There are trainees that have not been officially signed(because this period is relatively short and isn't official, most people don't view them as actual trainees), officially signed trainees(which are the 'regular trainees') and debut-expected trainees(where the group is almost fixed and the group will debut as expected unless there is a big problem). Baekhyun was a regular trainee for 4 months before he got into the debut trainee pool, where he trained for an additional 7 months to debut. So he did train for 11 months, but his 'regular trainee' term was only 4 months. In Suho's case, he trained for about 6½ years, which is why I think it fluxuates between 6~7 years. As a regular trainee, he would've trained for about 6 years, but if he includes the additional 7 months of predebut training, it would be nearly 7 years.
@Fangirl 791 it's not really like that, kai always trained himself before getting into sm but he was one of the members who trained for longest time.Don't know about Chen but Baekhyun shared ,how he got the opportunity to be in the official exo line up.LSM basically visited the tarinee dorms once & ask everyone to do something & our genius idol just thought it's his time to shine.
3:10 my favorite boyband when I was a teenager was Backstreet Boys, but I liked many others like Nsync. Then when I was 16/17 I started enjoying other types of music. I thought my "boyband phase" had ended with my adolescence but nope. I found out about kpop a while ago and now I'm here in my late 20s being a BTS fan. So much fun. Being a fan girl is really fun.
18:09 I also don't understand the stigma the term boyband has. I've seen some BTS fans criticize people who call BTS "boyband", which makes no sense to me. They are a boyband. If people have prejudice against boybands that's their problem. RM, the leader of BTS, called themselves a boyband in a very recent interview.
Some fans even say that BTS is not kpop but then turn aroun and say they kings that paved the way for modern kpop? Bc apparently kpop was always repetitive songs with simple but catchy choreo from untalented clout chasing idols before BTS appeared and not a term for korean music industry? There is so much double standart and toxicity in kpop that sometimes it make you wonder - do they even see idols as living human beings...
I know that’s not really what you meant but at least in Korean entertainment “boy bands” are groups that sing and play instruments (like CNBLUE or The Rose) and boy groups are idols who just sing and dance. So for the most time you see fans labelling them as groups and not bands.
Also I want to touch on the surface of the difference between “idols” and “artists”. Even tho idols are technically both of it many kpop fans (especially toxic ones) don’t label them as such until the group writes most of the songs themselves + meaningful lyrics. So for example (toxic) Army’s would often use the argument that other groups aren’t “real” artists because they don’t write most of their songs themselves and their lyrics are for the most time generic. And they use it as a downgrade. Of course it’s always better to know that your artists write their own lyrics and knowing that they are capable of that but doesn’t make them superior. Other idols just focus on other things (like exo who focus’s heavily on vocals and to this day study it and get better) + BTS went through the idol training system and do things that other idols do so they are idols too and that’s not a bad thing.
@@ИмяФамилия-ф2д8ш The reason some fans say BTS is not kpop is usually when they’re talking about their musical genre. That’s because kpop should NOT be a genre, the songs should be categorized by their own styles. Although some people might just be being rude to other kpop bands, the goal in saying those things is almost always to stop the incredibly racist practice some western companies attempt of making separate “kpop” categories for radio stations and awards, therefore separating Korean music from all other types of music and smashing all popular Korean songs together regardless of genre. Music should not be categorized based on its country, it should be categorized based on the music itself. It’s a form of segregation, imagine if the first woman to earn a prestigious award in her field was told that they’d make a new “woman” category for her because she’s too “different” to be mixed in with the men. That would obviously be terrible, and if she objected to it it wouldn’t be because she doesn’t respect other women. BTS fans that say BTS isn’t kpop are usually campaigning against the idea that they should be put in some magically invented award category because their group is Korean. Obviously BTS IS kpop, because they’re Korean and popular. The point is that kpop is not really a genre, and it’s racist to keep BTS out of categories used by western artists simply because them being Korean means they somehow don’t count as any other genre other than the one that specifically refers to their race.
@@engelberthovel8566 saying they aren't kpop is like complimenting someone with "you are smart for a WOMAN" - backhanded and very much uncalled. They are kpop and just like US awarding a film about family of korean immigrants in a "foreign" category they will put kpop as a separate genre until they realize it's not very smart bc the only difference is the language. Westerners (americans especialy) aren't used to the whole kpop culture and stuff and them creating a whole new segment just for kpop is not unexpected nor something bad. All we have to do is wait
it’s nice seeing exo being talked and research about
crazy to think that in kpop spaces exo fans complain about exo lack of non musical content (variety / reality shows/ YT videos/ vlives)in comparison to other kpop act . but for outsiders they probably have too much content in comparison to western acts.
i also appreciate the fact that exo didn’t play heavily on creating ships and “couple” interactions and fan service. it resulted fans to think they are not “as close” because they don’t have much content. but i believe it created a healthy relationship between the members and the fans. ships are not pushed and they don’t encourage it. good for them
the amount of research and reflection in this video essay ✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨ every time you give us quality, informative content
This was so well done. As a huge fan of the groups mentioned, as well as someone who lives and works in South Korea and has seen kpop acts up close for several years, all of these are very valid points.
I don’t even listen to this genre of music and watched the whole video. Thanks for this!
Well done! I thoroughly enjoyed your video. I am a middle aged woman who loves EXO. Not brainless, not impulsive or exploring my budding sexuality, which proves that this type of music does also stand the test of time. I am in for the music and fun as well as the androgenous yet masculine visuals. It's such a great entertainment.
Why is fanatic sport obsession, where fans scream and even destroy things accepted and viewed as ok and yet screaming teenage girls are brainless and hysterical?
You said it. Anything enjoyed mostly by females is instantly discredited. Chick flicks are dumb but guy flicks are cool.
This needs to change.
Thank you.
i also think... girls/woman are so easily ready to shout from the rooftops that we like something and we are not ashamed. what would all these boybands have if women were not there to adore their music and their cute faces? they would legit not have a career. and i LOVE groups who recognize this. My favorite group, SHINee, they LOVE their female fans - cause why shouldn't they?! they respect the ladies who love their music, when guys for SOME reason are usually (not always) too ashamed to admit they like them. or won't even give it a chance because girls like them?? ..... why would you as a man - not like a group of men your own age/or older who make great music and look cool and are JUST as manly as anyone else - just more beautiful than you ;) ..... So women are the ones openly showing their love and you know what? they world is a much better place for it
Yes they should worship women cuz they like them lol.
Listen, they are there cuz of their talent not cuz of you
@@tromboner6061 maybe go to a Kpop concert and see how many boys you can spot… the whole stadium is packed with female fans. No group would be anywhere if not for the fans. Who are usually WOMEN.
Amen, fellow Shawol 💎💙
I remember when B2K, Jonas Brothas, Big Time Rush, and One Direction was big. I wasn’t a huge fan but I did like B2K, Jonas Brothas, and Big Time Rush. I do admit that I was obsessed with MJ, Chris Brown, and Trey Songz.
14:46 i’ve never seen people credit the writers of kpop songs! This is really cool!
Boybands and girlgroups are fascinating because of the interpersonal relationships. A solo artists has varying levels of chemistry with interviewers, but fundamentally they're really just talking about who they are and what they like, however a group can show instead of tell when we see how they treat each other. Kpop has correctly identified that if you throw the group in a room and turn on a camera, that's all you need. No host or other guests, just EXO Showtime while they bump around a rental house in a series of contrived setups like the chicken or the movie thing. We want to see them laugh and joke and play with each other. Watching the group bond and interpersonal bonds grow will lock in a female fan base better than anything else. Also, member interactions are water on which to sail our ships.
That's so true! As a dedicated fangirl of a troupe of comedy actors, I love interviews where they're mucking around & teasing each other- & being comedians, it's goddamn hilarious- or talking about their friendship; & outtakes- them repeatedly mangling their lines, or corpsing cos one of the others who's out of shot is deliberately winding them up... I don't ship them romantically, but I'm totally on board (lol) with shipping the freakin' adorable friendships in the group :)
I love that you heavily criticized the boy band (and Kpop as a whole) phenomenon while also praising it too and still being a fan! Your videos are so nuanced and I really appreciate content like yours. ❤
My first boy bad was 1D I remember watching them on the XFactor and buying the first album, I also had a 1D lunchbox.
But I wasn’t a teen fan I was a kid fan who just wanted the older teens to think I was cool because I knew all the songs. Still brings fun memories
The way this was posted on one direction 11th anniversary. It was meant to be
this was such a great deep dive into this topic! I feel like the whole kpop industry as a whole is a very very long and fucked up subject of discussion that would probably take days to analyze every aspect of it and the problems that emerge from it. I've been a kpop fan for about 6 years now (7-8 as a casual listener) and I've seen sooo many groups come and go or fade in the background, not because they didn't have talent of potential but because their companies only see them as money-making machines and treat them horribly. Not many groups survive the 7-year-curse and that's such a shame and waste of talent. K-pop has become over-saturated to the point that if the groups are not from the big 3 or hybe barely get a chance in the spotlight. I don't like when people describe kpop as "manufactured" because it takes away the actual artistic experience from it which is the thing i most enjoy in kpop. But I can't help but agree sometimes that these companies are just producing groups left and right with little to no consideration into the "artistic" aspect. Every group is tailors to be perfect and if you're not then you're considered a "failure" or a "flop" but in reality that is what being human is about. I hope in the future the kpop industry shakes things up and let idols be human and not god-like figures that can do no wrong.
all these issues that emerge every other week or month where we see scandal after scandal in the industry has really pushed me away from kpop. Not that the western industry is any better it's just the kpop industry is super hypocritical to the point it's frustrating and exhausting. It would be easier to "just listen to the music" but it's almost impossible when you suddenly find out one of your favorite groups are disbanding because the members are suing the company for mistreatment or mismanagement or whatever else. And that's just an example, groups have disbanded for a lot less. They make us emotionally connect with the artists so of course it hurts us when it turns out they are being treated badly. Or even worse when they turn out to be a bully and just and overall horrible person (example: Seungri, Kris, Jimin from A.o.A, April etc).
Honestly I would have probably quit kpop if it wasn't for my new-found love for ateez. They have really lit up the spark in my heart, which had grown cold, once again. They made kpop bearable for me. Even if they get a shit ton of hate lately which saddens me a lot. I think the reason why they pulled me in was that they are focusing a lot on individuality and personality/character when they perform. I don't think I've ever seen a group immerse themselves so much into the characters that their songs require it's almost like watching a movie or a theater play. Whether it's a happy song or a scary song or a powerful song or a tragic and sad song or anything else, they manage to create a storytelling narrative through their expressions. And it's not just one or two members that do this, it's all of them together. They manage to create a beautiful harmony without overshadowing each other. I personally find this to be a high expression of art. Because that was the main reason why I got into kpop in the first place. Art is an expression and application of a human creative skill and imagination. The expression of oneself is the one of the most difficult ones to master because while you can learn to sing and dance, it is very difficult to show and control raw emotions. Like acting basically. Ever since I discovered ateez i can't look at other performances the same way because my standards have been lifted so high. So I think after them I won't be able to get back into kpop ever. But I don't want that to happen anytime soon because these boys just started their journey and they have a lot so show to the world. I just hope the world listens.
ATINY! Absolutely you said everything I wish I could say but my mind is soo unorganized lmao. But yes I just can’t get over Ateez! I’m a semi casual listener but everything about them is just sooo talented. They genuinely love performing and it shows. But dang they’ve been overbooked lately and they BETTER NOT have a comeback with everything they’ve been having to do. But that may just be my opinion.
Also they’ve gotten hate??
Oh and did you hear about Mingi and San is now Covid free?! Best news ever!!!
@@anyone1111 Hii and omg thank you reading that long ass comment I really didn't think anyone would haha. It's like 4 am in my country so I'll probably regret writing all that in the morning lol but I'm glad you took the time to reply! Honestly yeah they've been super busy these past months and I can't imagine how exhausting it must be for them so I want them to take this whole summer as a break or even a little more. But I know the members have so much energy to do stuff they probably won't be able to sit their ass down for too long. I just hope if they do plan to make a comeback soon, that it's around September - October - November.
I did hear about San and mingi and I'm honestly sooo happy they can finally all be together as 8 again after almost a year. It's been a rough year for them but now they'll be able to be back stronger than ever!
Also sadly yes its true they're getting a lot of hate as of recently... Mostly on Twitter and tiktok. And it's unwarranted too! They don't even do anything and somehow they become the punching bag of every kpop stan out there. It's honestly very upsetting sometimes to see the comments people make about their singing and dancing and facial expressions. I've seen it all... From ableist comments to death threats to people trying to trend for them to disband. It got to the point one of the members had to make a statement to tell the fans not to worry about the death threats he was getting but I know he must have been affected by them because we're all human and that's horrible. Anyway it's been some rough months so I hope it gets better now that they're taking a break
Hm yeah that is true I think kpop will be moving towards a better direction. Sometimes I feel its oddly hypocritical that we eye kpop so closely but never did/do the same for the western market which I think stems from the fact that power is in a way more split up (like the record label has not the ultimate power over you) but in the end power monopols probably are just as prevelant? Idk I'm always amazed at how little I know about how the industry works and how there seems to be no interest when for kpop it seems to be almost the only interest.
I hope they will improve on the "scandals" they are mostly laughable and not even scandalous. I think in the west we have seem improvement of the tabloid media too like in the early 2000s the way young stars especially women were treated was so so horrific (and often times it still is). Way to go for entertainment all over the planet Ig
The fact that you used mama as the intro is *chefs kiss*
🥰🥺
When I was a teenager, around 12-13, I was really REALLY into Justin Bieber. It was the peak time to be into him, 2012. Most of my family made fun of me for it, but I have a cousin in particular that loved demeaning me for liking "commercial music". He was into Paramore and Coldplay so he felt superior than everyone else (he's a better guy now).
However, when I was 12 I remember one time when he was with his girlfriend (who shared the same music taste) and they basically started listing all the reasons why I'm dumb because I like Justin Bieber and why he sucks. I got so frustrated I started to cry. Keep in mind this where two 16 year olds basically bullying a 12 year old... For liking the most popular pop star at the time
Thanks for sharing! I can really relate to what you said. I remember some people (older adults) bullying me for liking Hannah Montana when I was around 12 that it actually made my cry. Like don’t people have anything better to do? /sigh
Poor Judy Garland. Don't forget the literal drugs they fed her since childhood, amphetamines and barbiturates...
Happy july 23rd to all the Directioners out there, what a fitting video.
One Direction were my whole life when I was 12, I still have a box with all of my shirts and posters and merch in general, I even asked my parents to allow me to skip school for the premiere of their movie and I remember waiting in the line for 8+ hours with my friends, it's still such a cool memory to me, maybe a little cringy at times but that fandom helped me to make friends when my social anxiety was at it's worst so I treasure my time as a crazy screaming fangirl
I think the baiting is also made for the for the fans to be able to self insert into the member being touched. Shipping between members comes in here too where the “bottom” in the story is meant to be self inserted into. The female fans don’t want them to be with another woman but want to project how their favorite boy would hypothetically interact with them.
Holy, I didn't know N Sync and Backstreet Boys were abused by Lou Pearlman. Dang. Also thank you for defending and critiquing girls' loves of boy bands
As a 30-something gay man, my first crush was Brian Littrell from the Backstreet Boys, followed by Nick Lachey in 98 Degrees. I always saw boybands as a safe way for straight girls and gay guys to have their first crushes when they're too young to actually date. That's why boyband guys often give off a non-threatening vibe. I did read slash fanfiction that paired up the NSync/BSB/98 Degrees guys with each other and various male fans so the 1D stuff and later the BTS shipping isn't new at all.
ur channel is defo one of the reasons i want to take sociology in university i luv topics like this so much
The hilarious fact to me about people who see "fangirls" as frivolous and dumb who only care about looks and not the music just makes me laugh. Especially for K-Pop. As a lesbian, every K-Pop fan I know is LGBTQIA+ in some regards and we all love the boy bands and girl bands in every way because they are talented.
The industry really hates anything women and girls are interested in but still want to make money off of them
Interestingly, as much as there obviously are flaws in the kpop industry, it’s really the only industry that seemed to respect me as a fan. At least they actually want to cater to young women without being ashamed of it! They’re ahead of the west in that way, weirdly enough
I do somewhat disagree with a few statements made here.
I've never liked boybands growing up. Not just because of internalized misogyny but it's always seemed as if the industry itself never took boybands seriously. So the industry rather just make mediocre songs with above average looking teenage boys and that's it.
Secondly, we could say the gender bending is used to make themselves seem less threatening to "young" female audiences. It feeds into the idea that only teenage girls like kpop.
I think its just like how women find men who cook attractive. These men are comfortable with their masculinity, and aren't constantly berating women and femininity to prove their worth. Flamboyant men who are unbothered by their masculinity have always been extremely attractive to adult women.
What's also appealing is the catering boybands do for the female gaze that men usually don't. So I don't think the reason why girl groups don't do well is because of patriarchy, it's just men are already catred to.
Perhaps because women are financially free, women cater to their own value systems since they aren't tethered to men, and hence also prefer beautiful men.
As exploitative the kpop industry seems, It seemed like the industry actually cared about their fans without disrespecting their intellect and admiration. Boybands weren't just marketed to young 13 year Olds, but even adult women with day jobs.
Kpop boybands just kept improving their art and I feel like the west does a shitty job marketing entertainment to young women. It's a tragedy how stereotypes and misogyny left western boybands completely under developed.
I agree with this comment
agreed 100%
VERY well said!!
100/100 best comment 🙌🏽
I’ve always been fascinated how these fans would act around famous people especially the ones who has the delusion that could possibly date their favorite celebrities and all the other crazy stuff they do
as a directioner and former army, this content sums up all my thoughts in boybands, thank u!
The concept had existed prior, just not as four boys put together. You saw the same phenomenon for single singers like Elvis or Frank Sinatra before that... and before the girl fans were called Teeny Boppers they were called Bobby Soxers.
I absolutely loved this video! As a frequent boyband fan (my current favorite is BTS) I learned a lot from this video and your thoughts put a lot of ideas I had surrounding boy bands into perspective. I love how well you explained and went about some of these difficult topics. Also, you clearly did your research! Btw that pic at the end is from one of my favorite Disney channel movies, Pixel Perfect 😌
🥰✨ yes! You got it :)
I would argue that young women liking boybands wearing makeup because it's "less threatening that adult masculinity" isn't entirely true. "Traditional" heteronormative male beauty standards are forced on men and women regardless of their age, women especially aren't given options of different types of men they can find attractive that are seen as socially acceptable in the eyes of cishet men. Different FlAvOuRs of male beauty arent represented in wider media esp in western countries.
As an adult, I find men with glamorous appearances and makeup much more visually appealing to me that a beefy man wearing ralph lauren. Being socialised as a cishet woman, i appreciate that process of getting dressed up.
Even when I was smaller I found feminine men better looking than masculine men
Thanks for the video. It is something that I talked about with my sisters. I am 56 and still like boys bands along with other bands and artist genres of music. My current favorite boy band is BTS. But I screamed and lost it when another band Cooheed and Cambria dropped a song along with BTS. So both Permission to dance and Shoulders are on my play list. Bottom line I love music and I don't think it's fair to judge me or the artist no matter the gender or genre or age or race. Music is a very powerful and personal experience. Also people forget an important fact. Artist work for a huge industry. That means money...and when it comes to money every industry has its ups and downs with corruption and greed. Artist are miss treated and abused because of greed either on the company side, parents and sometimes the artist themselves and yes fans. That part of the music industry I do not like. But it is what it is and hopefully things change faster. Thank you
So cool to see that people of many different ages like boybands! Thank you for sharing 😀
I’m not going to lie. Whenever I see older women into music that leans so heavily into the visuals and sexualisation of younger men, i can’t help but think they’re lying when they say it’s not sexual.
@@rosedalinevaletine6931 it’s possible I’m older too but I got into Kpop Bc their music is dope. I also chnage bias groups based on how their music; I stopped being an exo l jsut Bc their music didn’t appeal to me like NCT does and that’s just that so it is possible to jsut like kpop for music and visuals and flashiness is jsut seen as icing to the cake
The only boy band I've stanned is Seventeen, but I was also a fan of VIXX, B.A.P., and C-CLOWN.
I think Seventeen's ongoing reality show, Going Seventeen, is lots more comfortable to watch because you can tell the members really enjoy participating in it. In fact, they brainstorm and pitch the episode concepts themselves!
And when a member isn't particularly feeling a certain episode, that's acknowledged and accepted. They'll enjoy another episode. Even the fans on Twitter don't make an issue of it.
I think I understand the frustration against queerbaiting here... But like, sometimes what white americans call queerbaiting doesn't take into account the different cultural norms for one thing. But also the corporations are at fault here, I have seen people get angry at the stars and call them straight and stuff and its like..... Even a straight guy is allowed to wear makeup guys... And we should let artists (bc they're people!!) Dress and interact w their friends how they please... Its something that frustrates me bc its so complicated
The fact that gender expression is confused for sexuality is heteronormative thinking in the first place. Wearing make-up doesn't equal any sexuality. Liked this comment.
Yes! It's also very homophobic to assume someone is queer by judging their style or behavior etc. Sadly many people don't realize that. The nonly thing that makes someone gay is when they are attracted to the same gender. I really don't understand why there's still people who say being "feminine" is gay...
Yes, 100% this. Kpop bands are almost certainly not “queerbating”. Korea is progressing fast but it’s still not a super safe place to be gay. The last thing they’d want for revenue is for people to start scandals over it. Korean culture is very pro touching and overall closeness between same-sex friends, guys hold hands or even touch each other’s butts and it’s considered absolutely no big deal. I think “queerbating” has been an extremely overused term in western culture and most accusations of it tend to stem from ignorance. Even if there’s some kind of joke about two kpop guys being in a relationship, it’s almost certainly just supposed to be funny because it’s unexpected, and not taken seriously. People need to lose the shipping goggles and realize not everything is intended to be taken literally or read in a sexual way.
Also yes, femininity in a man is NOT the same thing as being gay. It’s also not the same thing as being transgender or even necessarily non binary. It is inherently extremely against the best interests of the LGBTQ+ community to claim that a man doing something traditionally feminine means he’s leading us to believe he’s LGBTQ+. It’s very homophobic, transphobic, and offensive to non-binary people to equate these things, as well as rude to the individual involved to accuse him of “leading people on” just because he expressed himself how he wanted to express himself.
My favourite boyband is BTS and I am always grateful to have discovered them because they had helped me a lot in my life. I also like to think God was the one who send these boys to me because the timing was just so perfect, my life was at my lowest when I started listening to their music and it had helped me tons. I never see them as love interests but more as an old friend. I actually used to be a shipper haha but I don’t ship them anymore because after following them for a long time I realised they were just very close friends but if there are any secret relationships, I don’t mind that at all ❤️
I don't think I can collect my thoughts to form a more cohesive comment, but thank you so much for this video!! I really appreciate that you took such a nuanced and thorough approach to this topic. As someone who has been into boy bands for most of my life, I really appreciated it. It gave me a more well-rounded view of boy bands, informed me about things I had never really heard before, and made me feel less ashamed for liking boy bands just because they're shallow or whatever.
As for boy bands?? I'm like you and really got my start with the Jonas Brothers. Then I had a Beatles phase in middle school, which definitely informed my not-like-other-girls-boy-band-shunning persona in high school. After my first year of college I discovered BTS and have been caught up in kpop ever since. I listen to several of the boy groups and have started branching into girl groups, but would have to say BTS and Stray Kids are my current favorites. Both groups write and produce songs that are about topics like mental health and struggling to find one's way in life, which I greatly appreciate.
I haven't really listened to Exo much, but after watching this video and hearing you talk about them I think I'll check out more of their music!! Again, thank you so much for the video and I look forward to watching more of your videos 💜
I love how you express and lay out your ideas and the direction you take them on.
I became a fan of exo since 2012 because of their aesthetic and concepts and their music. The way different types of creative processes converge with them has always amazed me (music, dance, film, photography, design, fashion, makeup, even storytelling). At that time I was 12 and couldn't really put into words all of these and I navigated the communities as an average fan complimenting their looks and whatnot. Then I became an adult and never stopped being their fan simply bc I couldn't lmao, the work they keep releasing is just always so good (solo or not) and, at my 20s, i just feel proud to be their fan because their work is always of top quality (music/aesthetic wise).
I think the thought that only teenage girls enjoy boybands is a logical fallacy. I’m sure that other groups of people enjoy them but are heavily discouraged from stating so publicly, because these things are considered “teenage-girl” things. This then appears to reduce the boybands to their physical appeal and not their art. It’s a cynical cycle.
Really good video, Thanks for the inclusion of the Jonas Brothers! They were the first band I was obsessed with and I've seen many people completely forget about them when talking about boy bands history in general, they had a impact even if it was shorter than other bands.
So I love your video because it dives into a deep look at how boybands were and are still conceptualized, but I need to clarify the Taemin part because as I saw your previous videos, there is a consistency of using Taemin as an example, which is fine and it makes me happy because not many people remember he...exists i guess? But with Criminal, the core concept isn't romanticizing domestic abuse, but rather portraying the process of someone being in an abusive relationship or an abusive situation in general, and then finding some actions from the abuser appealing and sympathetic and can't help but falling into Stockholm Syndrome. This is Taemin playing both the victim and abuser roles to portray it as an autobiographic look into himself how it shapes his identity and in a way, forces an identity on him and gradually he accepts and falls in love with it, like a Stockholm Syndrome patient. He is aware that the concept and theme is VERY heavy thus why he plays both role himself. The lyrics have his input in it and he never encourages fan to overlook his flaws if he ever show them and they even should dump him if he messes up.
He explained a lot in his commentary on the MV and I for once think a deeper look in using examples is needed? ruclips.net/video/L6snbR67ljs/видео.html
Again, thank you very much for your hard work.
I love how you are shouting out the black songwriters! 😁
I still find that weird that Girl Groups has diminishing returns, I love Girl Groups from the Spice Girls to Loona to indie stuff like Muna to the boy bands (even I grew up with Five, BSB etc.) so its odd to be me that the biggest girl groups Blackpink and Little Mix are bashed when boy bands can get away with it. Great video btw.
I think BP is a completely different story. Yes they're bashed unnecessarily but there are pretty fair criticisms that have more to do with the company rather than the girls themselves.
My favourite boy band was Big Time Rush, then the Jonas Brothers. Now, I’m in love with Seventeen
Other things I would like you could’ve touch on (even tho I know the video is already really long)
• The member D.O. from exo who isn’t the “typical idol” and openly said that he and the other members often thought about quitting, never showed his abs and said that he doesn’t have them, comes of as “awkward” in certain moments
• Many Korean gg like Twice or Apink have a really big male audience and often performed at the military
• Not only is Kai often the center but is mostly the one that gets outfits like crop tops and he said himself that he is only comfortable wearing them while dancing but not during interviews
• instead of taking Kai and Taemin as an example for idols that debuted at a young age, I would’ve choose NCT Dream and the member Mark who is in so many groups
"As long as there is music, we'll be coming back again" - The Backstreet Boys
The editing on this video is incredible!
I got into kpop last year, before that I used to think that kpop was all manufactured and that the industry was terrible so I didn’t wanna listen to it (this was all propagated by all the “the dark side of kpop” videos). I used to bash the genre thinking I was superior because I listened to “real music” which was so stupid and karma bit me in the butt.
Finally I watched a few music videos and listened to a couple of songs and I FELL IN LOVE, not because they were handsome but because of their music and performances, funnily enough my first boy group was EXO, I still love them but my favorite groups is Seventeen. love their whole discography and performances, they work so hard writing, producing, singing and choreographing their music it’s incredible, if you have never heard of them check them out.
Now kpop is one of my favorite genres and It helped me so much in so many ways, everyone should give things a try before judging because of the popular opinion.
As a woman going into the entertainment industry the last section before the conclusion gave me a headache. Like it is so much harder with all the backlash women get especially with age because that specific element doesn’t allow woman to grow.
It’s getting better with more and more appreciation for female performers who’s fan bases grow with them but I hope it rapidly gets better.
I'm happy you made a video on this. I feel like guys aren't able to express themselves because of society and theirs a double standard they have to face. I did a essay on this but but couldn't find much research.
I wish there were more POC examples in this video(i.e. black bands, Indian bands, indigenous groups etc.)... but I did enjoy the video essay! Thank you for taking the time to put it together.
OK BUT CAN WE TALK ABOUT D.O'S VOICE?????
thank you
taemin said that criminal's about stockholm syndrome so that's why the lyrics touches on themes of abuse and "being submissive"
I've been into boy bands since I was about 14. First I liked rock groups, later in 2010 I discovered KPOP through SHINee, and I've been supporting them until this day. I'm 31 years old, and I don't even feel bad about it. Boy bands are versatile and fun. And I like what you said: the endless content that comes out of a KPOP group is insane, and the members grow up with you. KPOP boy groups beat western ones, big time.
Another great video! As a current kpop/lifelong pop music fan, I found myself nodding and saying “yess” like every few seconds while watching this lol And my favorite boy group at the moment is Monsta X!
7:15 I was in that meet & greet in Spain, it was in Madrid, I waited for hours in the very hot Spanish summer under the sun. I remember it as one of the scariest experiences of my life, and I didn't even get to meet them in the end.
another great video as usual
my fave boy bands right now are monsta x, sf9 and txt
Sf9 is terribly underrated and for such a talented group it’s shocking!
@@anyone1111 agreed they deserve more
hi fellow fantasy 😎
I grew up listening to david bowie, the beatles and queen cause my parents made me listen to them a lot and still now they're among my favorite artists.
Growing up and going to middle school I was a lot into 5sos and one direction and pop punk bands, they were all male, then, in 2013 I started listening to little mix and to ariana grande...it was really refreshing to me, because, even tho I liked listening to songs that talked about maybe a boy being in love with a girl and other things, I really liked the other side, a girl talking about how she loves a boy or how she wants to feel empowered and so on, it really helped me having female figures in my adolescence.
It's really a shame to me that the most of the boys that maybe like boybands and male singers (even more now with kpop being so popular) are considered gay or else, as if boys couldn't like boybands and their music, as if us fans are there only for their looks.
And I remember shipping and other things were a real big issue even back in one direction and 5sos days and looking back to it I feel like this isn't really our business, like if they're affectionate with each other maybe they only have a good bonding, they don't have to be boyfriends to share some hugs or else...
The over sexualisation is something I always hated, I remember during exo's lotto era, baekhyun was really thin cause he had to go thru a strong diet and I see always a lot of ppl sexualizing his looks from that period only cause he looked "sexier", when in fact he was going through a vary bad time and this feels very sad, cause it makes me realize ppl cares only about the looks the most of the time and doesn't care about how the artist feels...
my first boyband were the jonas brothers! 2nd and probably last is bts, they really caught me off guard 😭
also i think the blueprint for the "each member has a distinct style and personality" thing started with the spice girls. simon cowell repeated that with one direction, little mix and fifth harmony, it was almost painfully obvious
oh my God! the beatles were pioneers in all this without knowing it, I remember seeing ads for them on pinterest where they were sold as "george the sensitive and mysterious" "ringo the funny" "paul the cute and tender" "Jonh the leader and the bad boy "and John saying that his best audience were teen girl because they are very passionate and obsessive, and that is why they wrote songs dedicated to girls, the same with the haircuts, the outfits, everything was planned!
And never forget that to date the world does not forgive that John married Yoko (and had to hide his first marriage) and that a fan murdered him. Definitely beatlemania and the obsession for these guys was something from another world. The fans must learn that boy band members are real people, fans do not own the lives of those boys
Omg i had totally forgotten the origin story of EXO lmao. Loved this video, it was so well done.
Also my favourite boyband is Teen Top and VIXX. We stan
I'm not a fan of any boybands but the things I've seen on Wattpad is concerning. Writing smut about celebrities is terrible and shouldn't be so normal.
I used to read those kind of wattpad, but then i realized that's not good for them and myself. They're real person, they don't deserves this