The thing crawls out of its dead mother’s womb then immediately begins beating you to death with the thing that killed her. That’s the most metal thing I’ve ever heard
@@penjamin1479 I am normally quite good at seeing metaphor, and maybe I'm just too sleepy today, but what is the metaphor to which you allude and which TBSyen feared would get him demonetized to talk about?
@@joshuagross3151yeah, if anything it’s the exact opposite of that. DLC is fully optional, so you can completely ignore it if you wish to. Killing the orphan lets everyone to be put to rest, hence it is the right thing to do.
@@SalvageETyou're tripping over the ambiguity of language. You're taking "necessary" to mean "a strictly mandatory action", where the use in the video is more "an action you are bound by morals or duty to perform", which is essentially your version of "right" - morally sound. But "right" in the video is regarding the fact that you aren't doing a justice, the world doesn't end up a good place, you are just cleaning up after a tragedy.
My favorite part of the orphan is that as it looks into the moon, it weeps, initially high pitched and then immediately becomes much more deep and adult-like. Perhaps signifying the corruption of its innocence or how it was immediately taken away from its mother and used for whatever the academy used it for.
@@piter1473 hey man it took him like 6 games but he's being pretty wise now. I don't even think his games were about revenge is bad just not letting your hatred and anger consume ya when ya get it.
Watch carefully when the Orphan calls the lightning down and you'll see the blast is centered on Kos and radiates out from her corpse. He's trying and failing to revive her.
@@ivanlagayacrus1891Perhaps the lighting was Kos's conciousness trying to go back to the physical body so she could protect her child each time she heard him cried, but of course it was futile
@@BlankEmporium You can certainly interpret it that way, but I will stand by my interpretation. I think it adds something tragic and sympathetic to the Orphan of Kos as a character, and makes it deeper than just a naked screaming zombie man who inexplicably hits like an 18 wheeler. (apologies if this is a long comment, i just love Bloodborne) The Hunter's Nightmare is the Orphan's plane of existence. Here, it doesn't need to be that small frail wisp clinging to Kos' body. It can make itself into an embodiment of hate and grief and murderous rage to strike back at the hunters for what they did to it -- ironically using a fighting style that imitates them. The Orphan truly IS the Hunter's Nightmare, and on this plane it is the most powerful being in existence. It can transform, and call down lightning. But even with all of this power its mother is still dead, and nothing it does can ever change that. Of course, in the end, the Orphan IS forced back to the form of a small frail wisp. Because you take all the hate it has and overpower it anyway. You make it feel like prey again. And then you kill it. Again. Tragedy is a recurring theme throughout The Old Hunters. Ludwig fell to beasthood. Maria was torn apart by her own guilt. The Orphan's story is maybe the most tragic of all of them -- it's absolutely the victim in this story, but in the end all of its righteous fury wasn't enough. tl;dr you're not really fighting the Orphan at all, you're fighting its grief
It's like the Orphan tried to bring out the scariest thing it could think of and settled on Gehrman, but it's warped through the eyes of a frightened infant that doesn't understand what's happening or why. The eldritch nightmare of an eldritch nightmare.
Well, we've seen what the old man can do. I can only imagine what he does in his prime... Ever wonder why there are only 4 Sharks in the Fishing Hamlet?
It's sad that you're under threat of demonization, I find your work wonderful. Dark topics, thematic implications, deeply rooted pain in art and satire of the human existence. Please, carry on with my thanks.
I needed a bottomless shot of Jack Daniels after I beat this monstrosity. Took me over 50 tries but I finally slaughtered it and the feeling felt like I had sperm retention for over a decade and I get to finally CUMMMFPK 😁(that’s a blood echo farming glyph for those who are not in the know) 🫡
I remember when me and some friends first played trough this and encountered Kos, ones initial reaction was to ask:" Why there is a guy crawling out of the jelly fish?" And ignoring the shock of that, it got me to think, why does the Orphan looked so... human. I mean, mother Kos also has some features that come close to being human, but the child could be mistaken for an old men from a distance. I personally like to think that it is because of the father. Not literall speaking mind you. The orphan is born from suffering, in a metaphorical sense. So of course it looks like those who brought said suffering to it and his mother. Let it be the carelessness of the fishermen, or the madness of the scholars. For me humanity is the father of the orphan of Kos. So it isn't just an orphan by nature of having a dead mother, but also because its father abandoned it.
I like the implication about the humanity litterally abusing Mother Kos, Skyen did talk a lit about how women are depicted in Bloodborne, how they became easy victims and how their body gets abused by the schoolars (mainly men btw) to serve their greater desire. The though that "the child of Kos was born from violence" can mean a lot if you read it with the mind of our world, that Kos was a mother not by choice but by abuse, or carelesness of someone, a fisherman, who couldn't care less and left her to die while giving birth. Quite meaningful implication if you read it that way too.
One of the things that makes Bloodborne unique among eldritch horror, is that its Great Old Ones usually don't mean harm but outright try to help the poor, confused specks of dust they come across. So yeah~, doubly so given the fishing hamlet corrupted imagery echoing Lovecraft, it's... no impossible that Kos simply... loved at least one man, once. I honestly like that implication, because it would explain why the fishing hamlet seems pretty pleased by their changes over all, and only react violently to intruders. It adds to the tragedy, that they might have accidentally undone their own goddess, by accidentally dragging her ashore so the Choir could find and 'study' her.
I don't think the Orphan we fight in the DLC is the actual Orphan the Hunters found. After the fight, the ending cutscene only plays after the 'death' of the 'real' Orphan, a wispy shadow protruding from its mother's stomach. I think for the DLC in particular, not everything should be taken literally; it takes place in a nightmare, a nightmare given reality on a different plane of existence, but a nightmare all the same. The Hunter's Dream and Nightmare are not accurate depictions of reality, as we see when we find the Hunter's Workshop, they're more based on the psyche of their Host who I believe to be Gehrman for both. After the DLC the Doll says: "Oh, good hunter. I can hear Gehrman sleeping. On any other night, he'd be restless. But on this night, he sounds so very calm. ...perhaps something has eased his suffering" which suggests the hunter of 'The Hunter's Nightmare' refers to Gehrman, 'The First Hunter', recontextualizing the DLC to be about following Gehrman's guilt back through the exaggerated dream of the bloody history of his, and the association he helped create's, atrocities: the ruins of Yarnham filled with blood drunk hunters, the deformation of the church into Beasts, the horrors of the Research Hall, and of course, the death of his beloved Maria, whose grave leads us from dream to nightmare, all the way back to the heart of it all, the genocide and defilement that set off everything. The kicker? before Gehrman is freed from his nightmares he can be heard crying in his sleep. These same sobs can be heard, albeit in a distorted form, from The Orphan of kos itself. who, now that we mention it, kinda looks like a fishy Gehrman right? All Great Ones yearn for a surrogate and Gehrman, in his nightmares at least, has taken the place of the child he murdered, forced to feel its grief, trapped in a prison of his own guilt.
I'm pulling this out of my ass here but MAYBE the reason why the Orphan look so much like a grown man is because of...trauma? The mind of a great one is strong, I wouldn't be surprise if the orphan can perceive things even from inside the womb, but it's still a fetus when Mother Kos got slaughtered and then studied. Who had done the most damage to him and his mother? Men. It was men who killed his mother, it was hunters who studied her corpse. Maybe the fetus wasn't developed yet when it got ripped out, but we fight the Orphan in its own nightmare. The mind of The Great Ones are great after all, so why wouldn't it be able to take any form it thought would keep it safe in its own realm? If his mother died by the hand of human, what could he turn into to fight those human off but another human? After all victims can sometimes turn into an abuser themselves if they thought that was the only they can protect themselves from any further harm. I have no evident to support tho, my brain is just sleepy so it drunkenly cooked up something.
I did notice a bit of metal with the orphans “weapon” but I never put together that it was a fishhook. I just assumed that Elder God biology means ‘don’t assume there ISN’T metal there’ The big irony is that by the sheer fact that one of the boss is named ‘orphan of Kos.’ Means that they were one of, if not the only outer God with the ability to have children without human intervention. Meaning by killing it, they literally caused the the hunt.
While I mostly agree with you (even the hook part and everything) there's an implication that just like Old Ones can't have children so they take surrogates, if they manage to have a child somehow they are destined to die. But there is also a contradiction in this bc Ebbrietas is the daughter of the Cosmos And you know a nice madman in a nightmare once said: Kosmos-Kosm-Kos...
@@peterjusztin7177 that’s what I mean, Kos may well have been the only elder God capable of having children on its own. So the death of it becomes even more devastating for everybody involved, because now it means even more that the elder gods need humans to procreate meaning more hunts .
@@peterjusztin7177 honestly think the whole daughter of the cosmos thing isn’t referring to kos. It’s probably more related to he being highly linked to the cosmos itself. Could be wrong obviously, I mainly think this because not much points to any relation with kos
Not necessarily true. Remember that every Great One inevitably loses it's child. The Orphan's "survival" suggests it's childten may survive if it's mother dies instead.
One thing I like about the Orphans design is that it much more closely resembles a classical angel than any of the other eldritch horrors encountered. There's definitely deeper religious subtext there that I cannot figure out cause I am really bad at media and design analysis.
Un señor muy viejo con unas alas enormes. It's a tale about the old powerless man with wings. First, people revered him, but as the time went, so did any respect toward that winged miracle.
@@jaimeestrada2671 yeah. when the hunters/scholars raided the village, they caused the Orphan's "death" which is why Kos created the Nightmare, as well as how they killed so many of Kos' followers.
It's an inversion of abortion. Instead of it dying, its mother died instead and it's left confused, frightened and angry, although I think the villagers of the Fishing Hamlet wanted Kos to die and didn't realize that she was pregnant. Pretty sure that's why he doesn't want to get demonetized because mentioning abortion probably is an easy way to get demonetized.
Skyen just one thing. you can hear German cry in his wheelchair in the hunter's dream, weeping while remembering the horrors he did in the fishing hamlet with his comerades. The cry you hear in the hunters nightmare are Germans. He remembers. He is suffering. That's why you free him when you kill the nightmare, that's why the doll thanks you.
German wasnt a part of the Hamlet horrors, that was Maria. And while Gehrman weeps for her, for all of his students who suffers, for the endless night he must endure, he had nothing to do with the death of Kos directly. And you free him not from the Nightmare, but from the Moon Prescense who he made a bargain with to trap Yharnam in its dream state until things could be made right.
@@jstin8 Pretty sure Gherman was apart of that group of hunters as he was the first hunter. Maria was his apprentience. He showed her how to be vicious and she gave up her blade after commiting horrible acts upon the Fishing Hamlet, swearing not to let any hunters go back there. Also Gherman had a thing for her and created a submissive doll in her image which is heavily implied to be used for sexual stuff.
"The Orphan of Kos is a victim chose death is tragic." Bro it's fucking birth is tragic that's a record no other Fromsoftware character managed to beat.
There is some lore missing here that puts more context to this in an interesting way. The Kos Parasite item description says that Kos "washed up dead on the shore" and that the parasites within her were what caused the villagers to transform, attracting the scholars (back then belonging to Byrgenwerth as the church did not exist yet). It is unknown if Kos was killed by the villagers, the parasites or just died of old age, but it's interesting to think that the Hunter's Nightmare came into existence through an accident. I mean, think about it. Kos dies through unknown means, is washed ashore, the parasites start mutating people and Byrgenwerth sends its hunters to sack the village, dragging people away to experiment on them and killing those to far gone. The dead and dying of the hamlet cast a desperate blood-curse on Byrgenwerth and their successors (the same curse you hear from the guy walking around as you exit the clocktower) and given that Great Ones are sympathetic to humans and can listen to curses, the Orphan listened to the blood curse and cast it on Byrgenwerth, dragging them and their descendants into the nightmare. Also an interesting thing is that this kind of gave rise to my theory that Simon, the Harrowed hunter, is in fact none other than the son of Laurence. Let me break it down: - Simom tells us that the Nightmare is where hunters go "when drunk with blood." This is good enough of an explanation at first since we do see many blood-crazed hunters just massacring beasts left and right without reason. But wait. Hang on. There are several people who AREN'T blood-drunk. Maria, the patients tied down, Yamamura, Brador...Simon himself? So why is HE here? We know Maria was part of the search, the patients are most likely aspects of the villagers or their descendants, Brador was a church assassin and most likely also involved, Yamamura...I actually can't explain him, maybe he was the son of a traveler and a Yharnam person, but Simon has seemingly no explanation in his past. - So Simon is either a former scholar or descended from SOMEONE at Byrgenwerth. The simpler choice would be that he was Willem's student but sided with Laurence during the schism and came to Yarnham with him. But that doesn't work as he refers to Byrgenwerth, the ones who 'sinned', as his 'forefathers' so he didn't study there. Not to mention, he doesn't know what Byrgenwerth's true 'secret' is, he doesn't even think they are responsible, he calls it "The Healing Church's secret" so he wasn't a part of Byrgenwerth when this happened and only heard or read about it. Putting all these pieces together, this proves he is the descendant of someone. - So he is a descendant of Byrgenwerth. But question, whose? Now this is where my theory takes an admittedly biased choice. Though it would be reasonable to assume that Simon is the son of just some nameless researcher who was chummy with Laurence, but I'll assume he is the child of someone important. Additionally, given his position as a harrowed hunter (essentially a spy for the church) and the fact he seems intimately familiar with dark topics that even people like Ludwig were not privy to, that would suggest to me he is the son of someone with some pull in the church and/or Byrgenwerth. But whose son is he? - At this point, this game becomes about eliminating the unlikely and narrowing down the list of potential candidates: - Willem could be, but doubtful. For one, Willem didn't seem interested in such things and I doubt Laurence would make the son of his most bitter rival one of his premier spies. Plus, how would that have even hapoened to get Simon away from Byrgenwerth and his father and under Laurence's influence. - Definitely not the son of Gehrman or Micolash. Similar in disinterest to Willem (Gehrman had his doll fetish but still unlikely) but also they were quite dedicated to their goals and work and would most likely not have pursued a family. Additionally, since Micolash became hostile to the Choir and Laurence's private circle, I doubt the latter would make his son a spy. - He's also unlikely to be a son of Maria as she killed herself while still heading the research hall as a young woman and didn't seem like a mother with child. Ludwig can also be ruled out, mainly since he was a thug and a soldier, unaware of secretive things and thus if he had any children, they'd most likely become city hunters themselves, not spies. - Other major characters, such as the Madaras twins, Valtr, Rom (as a human), Brador, Amelia, Djura, Gascoigne, Henryk, Eileen, etc. are not even worth considering as they have either no ties to Byrgenwerth (like Brador, Valtr or Gascoigne) or the old hunters (like Amelia who is likely too young to be his mom). The only, or rather, the best candidate, is Laurence. - My reasoning is as follows: Laurence is a former Byrgenwerth scholar, so he and his children would be and in fact are affected by the blood curse. Laurence is also the very first vicar and given his lust for power, he could reasonably be considered capable and willing to put his son into such an important position as a spy, either through nepotism or just regular pressure on his child to take up the job. There is also the fact that Simon knows and seeks secrets and calls the research hall the Healing Church's great secret. His connection to secrets, position as one of the very first Harrowed hunters and lineage all make Laurence a perfect candidate. - Another thing to consider is this: Simon follows you through the Nightmare as you make your march of death through Laurence's former cronies alk the way to the fishing hamlet where Brador kilks him. He stops in several areas and gives you suggestions, such as killing Maria and telling you that Ludwig was a 'poor brute.' But there is one crucial part he does not approach, that being the corrupted cathedral and Laurence's resting place. Could this be due to either sorrow for his father or fear of the new monster his loved one has become? Either way, it's curious that Simon, a man with such intimate knowledge of the church and its secrets, misses the one dude most responsible for the entire beastblood curse as well as the clear HQ of the Church. He also never mentions any vicars or the Church's leadership at all, only talking of the Church as this massive, seemingly sentient entity. But then how did he end up in the Nightmare? Well seeing that the only sane people in the Nightmare are dead in the real world (plus the Good Hunter who got here by mixing blood-drunk eyeball with Amygdala and downing it) it is likely that Simon is dead. But how and why? There can be a number of reasons, but his dialogue suggests Brador as the sole culprit. He mentions Brador coming after him 'again and again' which foretells the several Brador summons that attack you later on in the fishery area. Ah, so clearly Simon had been killed over and over again by Brador right? Well no, as there is one crucial detail here: SIMON IS NOT A DREAM HUNTER, HE CANNOT REVIVE AFTER DYING! This is why, like Maria before him, once he fully dies, he stays dead. My guess would be, once Laurence, his father, was killed by church hunters under mysterious circumstances (likely they hushed it up, lest people be frightened that a cleric was turned into a beast) he began to look into the Healing Church's secrets to find out why. During his investigation, he got into the fishing hamlet's case and this alerted Brador who hunted him down and killed him as per his duties, likely as his loyalties were now not to Simon's father but the second vicar (maybe Amelia). Awaking in the nightmare, Simon followed the Good Hunter's trail of butchery while still searching for answers, until an alternate version of Brador tracked him down and killed him here too. And with his dying breath, he passes on the key to Brador's cell and his bow blade, all but begging you to finish his task and lamenting how the sins of the forefathers cannot be born by him and other descendants. A sad, tragic story, but so are most in Yarnham. Thank you for reading my long post and I hope you enjoyed my theory!
I think it's an okay theory, but there's issues. Similarly to Gehrman, Laurence was obsessed with his work, with Laurence specifically looking into how to become a Great One. He studied the Blood with the intention to ascend, that's why he's the first Cleric Beast, and why he has the fire powers we see in Beast-possessed souls, he went to ridiculous means to become a God, and I doubt he'd waste time with having any form of family or intimate relations. We also know that while Amelia is the last Vicar, she's the last of a long line following after Laurence, even wearing his necklace, which is a blood gem, and we know from Gascoigne's wife that blood gem jewellery is given from Hunters to their loved ones. Unless there's another female hunter we aren't privy to, I doubt Laurence was having relations with non-hunters based on his necklace. Father's who abandon their children is a common theme, and with how Simon talks about Ludwig, I'd put more money on him being one of Ludwig's descendants than Laurence
@@abithefallenhuman921 Hmmmm, interesting points, though the blood gem could have simply remained as a keepsake and either been handed down to Amelia or as a relic to the Church. Just because it was a common thing doesn't mean he had to do it. As for Laurence's ambition, true, he was rather married to his ambitions, but he was still a young man when he left Willem's school and I think he's more likely to start a family than Micolash or Gehrman. He might have even courted one of the Cainhurst noblewomen or one of the Yarnham high society to gsin power. The guy is more political machinator and mad cultist than a crazy scholar type like Micolash, so I see him potentially getting married, if only to further his goals. As for Ludvig, very interesting. What about Simon's dialogue about him makes you think so? Please tell me, this is really interesting. I didn't consider Ludvig likely because of two things. For one, I personally didn't see Simon's comments about Ludvig that personal or interesting. He even seems to mock Ludvig as "a poor brute who died with his ideals untarnished." This is why I'd love to read why you think otherwise. The second is that given their ranks, it'd make me think that Simon would be raised more as a church hunter than a harrowed spy if he was Ludvig's son. Given how obsessed Ludvig was with his 'honourable spartans' to the point that that is the only thing he clings to even in the Nightmare, beyond his friendship to Gehrman, his attachment to the Church or anything else, you'd think he'd want his kid to be an 'honourable hunter' too if it came to that.
Much like how the Queen was blessed against her will and the child she was forced to carry was forcefully taken from her, the orphans mother was taken from him before he even saw the face of his own mother like the Queen will never know how her child would have looked in her arms. A mother who's unborne child was taken and a unborne child who's mother was taken.
I believe that Mother Kos made the Hunters Nightmare to protect the Orphan, and punish the Blood Addled Hunters, killing two birds with one stone. Which is why when the Orphan screams, Kos’s corpse emits lighting. Because Kos is protecting its child.
It's not that the fishermen really killed Kos, but what the hook really might mean is that they caught her while out at sea, brought her to shore regardless of he well being and by the time she got there, she might've already died. This in turn caused the parasites to burst and crawl out from inside of her, which might mean that either she always had them in there, or she was pregnant and... Those might be undeveloped fetuses. The lne thing left unexplained regarding the Orphan's existence is its connection to Gehrman, but there might be a plausible explanation to it. Through his dialogue, we know Gehrman knew who Laurence and Willem were and might've developed a friendship with them, since not only he was there from the very beginning, but he saw the foundation of the Healing Church and its Hunters. The Dream is, to Gehrman, what the Nightmare is to Blood Drunk Hunters and Simon, forced to forever be trapped in there without the ability to be freed. Only by Killing Gehrman and the Orphan, the Dream and Nightmare come to an end. Where Micolash uses Mergo to be the Host in the Nightmare of Mensis, Gehrman and the Orphan are the respective Hosts of the Dream and the Hunter's Nightmare.
@@peacemaster8117 yes, there is. If you look closely, it's hooked to the placenta, you can even see the rope he uses for the ranged attacks against you.
In hindsight, Gherman and his crew should have probably realized earlier that butchering all of a god's worshippers as well defiling her corpse and unborn child would make her a bit mad.
What I like about the Orphan of Kos ,despite what other seem to say in this comment section, is that it emerges from its mother as a curious child. The first thing it sees is a cruel imitation of a moon, the second is the corpse of its mother, and the third is the Hunter. It is alone and afraid, attacking not out of fury but out of self defense. Amidst the hunt we see another beast to put down, only once we are done with the deed we realize we have killed a child. A powerful God, but a child nonetheless. While we can free it's soul from the Hunter's nightmare, we are still not free from the Hunt or the bloodlust that will doom us to the same nightmare.
I adore the detail that it does look human and gives off an eeriely cry thats reminiscent of Gehrman. The doll also mentions that Gehrman is sleeping soundly this night after you slay the Orphan, implying their even deeper connection. Gehrman was probably the one to slay the actual orphan; and with him probably being what it saw before its death, it took the form in the dream of what its hatred stemed from: The merciless first hunter.
Huh...I always thought it was Kos herself that made the nightmare. Since killing the body didn't kill the great old one in it's entirety, and the orphan was just trapped. Though this also makes sense.
also something interesting is that the orphan is weirdly human ? he almost looks like a hunter, with his weapon that can be used like either a whip or a hammer. maybe one of the things that hunter are tortured by is an image of them as the orphan sees them. a pathetic monster that only knows rage and sorrow
Or you could reverse that observation. Since, by logic, it came first, the Orphan is not copying the shape and trick weapons of the Hunter, the Hunter is copying from the Orphan.
Well, you can look at it as the Orphan's "Father" *being* a human- or rather, an entire demographic of humans, or even humanity on the whole. If we assume that Kos died due to the fishing spear that attacked her, and the Orphan's current state being because Gherman and his fellow hunters further defiled her body, slaughtering her worshippers and destroying the village... Well. The Orphan as we see it could be said to have been conceived by an act of violence. Or, more bluntly, we can say that the Orphan was conceived in an act of rape- but one committed against not just Kos, but the entire village.
jesus christ ive never played this game and idk who rhis is or anything about them, but their attacks EMBODY the things you explained. ive seen alot of your analysis on bloodborne recently and the game looks incredible, im very convinced on checking it out. the way this enemy fights is so desperate and enraged?? i dont even know how to explain it. so perfect
From what I've seen/read from the game, the timeline I can piece together goes like this: The people of the fishing hamlet worshiped or simply lived in communion with Kos - it can be inferred that this arrangement was mutually beneficial, with Kos blessing their fishing, etc. The love the people of the fishing hamlet had for Kos is reflected in the various dialogues of NPC's throughout the fishing hamlet. They even call her 'Mother,' which can either infer how they felt about her or a bitter indictment on what was done to the Orphan. At some point this arrangement came to the attention of the scholars of Byrgenworth, who then at some point enacted the raid on the fishing hamlet in order to claim the power of the Great One Kos for their own ends. The game has countless examples of dismembered body parts still carrying the powers of the entities they were taken from. If Mother Kos would not grant her boon to the elite of Byrgenworth - or even failed to grant them ENOUGH of a boon for their own satisfaction - then they endeavored to take what they wanted by force. Again it can be inferred that this involved sending hunters in to subdue the people of the hamlet so that ships could be taken into the nearby waters to trap Kos - clearly with the very hook embedded in the placenta the Orphan wields.
I like the idea that, since this is clearly a Nightmare, therefore, in the plane of dreams, it doesn't have to be taken literally. Due to the remarks of the doll after you beat the Orphan, the pretty much same but distorted audio of Gherman's weeping and the Orphan's cries, I believe he represents not humanity as a whole, like some people suggested, but the guilt, pain and sorrow of Gherman for the atrocities him, Maria and the Church forced upon the village and the horrible experiments done with the actual orphan of Kos. It is his regret which causes the nightmare, his guilt and sorrow. Guilt for what he forced upon the innocent people of the village, guilt for what he allowed to be done to the real Orphan, guilt for driving Maria to suicide, maybe not directly, but clearly a result of his own acrions. And many who are guilty of something so harsh, you can't make it right, you can't turn back time and stop what you've already done. All you can do is put those thoughts to rest, come into terms with what you've done, accept the guilt and move on. But you can't make it right... No one can in this case. All you can do? Stop the pain.
I remember dialogue from the game, not sure which Old Hunter it was, but i'm pretty sure there's dialogue/lore talking about "What we did" (Said with shame and regret) with regards to the Old Hunters and Kos. With that, i'm of the belief that Kos wasn't aggressive to mankind, but was killed for being otherworldly and it was only afterwards that the Old Hunters realised what they had done.
I think all of the orphan’s powers and abilities indicate that he’s so distracted by the terror of being born and the grief of losing his mother, that he’s unaware of his own god-like powers. Kind of like when a baby is born, they scream because of the scariness of what’s happening around them and unaware of how peircing their scream is. The entire fight is basically the hunter vs a frightened newborn baby with all the rage and power of a Great One.
I absolutely love Orphans design it’s one of my favorite fromsoft designs of all time however I never noticed that hook deep in the placenta that ABSOLUTELY recontextualizes everything. From my previous guess of Hunters simply hunting a symbol of worship for their corrupt reasons to the new horrid revelation that they defiled the body of a dead mother for their own sick reasons. Yeah I understand why Maria gated this knowledge as hard as she did
It’s as simple as “It’s in pain and we need to make sure that it doesn’t suffer anymore” When we had to put one of our dogs down my sister was the one who raised it and even found in a trash bag on the side of the road After 14 years her body finally started to give out she had such bad Arthritis in her hips and legs she could t walk she was starting to go blind and it was time When we took her the vet we spent awhile saying goodbye my sister was a sobbing mess my dad was sniveling and I was shoving back tears and my dad just kept saying one thing “There there….it’s ok….no more pain….that pains all gone….there’s no more pain….” It’s not about vengeance or putting something down it’s about ending the pain because it’s the right thing to do…
I feel like the Orphan of Kos wouldn't have created the nightmare if it weren't for the twisted and horrible experiments the college and its hunters preformed on the villagers and the corpse of Kos. It was bad enough that the villagers were literally praying to Kos to curse Byrgenwerth and the hunters associated with them.
the worst part, that he is unique in their kind. The Great ones lost long ago the abilty of the traditional reproduction. But Koz, great of sea rediscover it. She could end the curse of the "every new child never appear to us" But the hunters make the mistake. The orphan must be kill, not for mercy of the old hunters, but for him. Like mergo
Kos was killed by the Scholars with Lawrence, Lady Maria and such, and it’s not the Orphan that controls the nightmare but the remaining consciousness of Kos herself, which is visible when you attack the dark spirit over her dead body, the nightmare gets freed.
Orphan of Kos always felt like having to put down a horribly mangled dog that's been maimed by a careless owner letting the dog run out onto the road, the dog getting run over and in it's pain and desperation it's lashing out at everything around it in sorrow and confusion as life suddenly is ripped out of it's control and all it can really do is thrash to prolong the inevitable. - But I also know the deeper meaning to it and that just makes it even more grim. Especially the real life commentary.
It’s not our job to put the orphan to rest. It’s our job to relive this fight Gehrmann and Maria fought to understand the history of the hunters. Although it says “nightmare slain”, we can still enter the hunter’s nightmare, which implies the nightmare is not over just because Orphan was killed. We can even finish Laurence after Orphan. When I played the DLC, I thought, I would not be able to enter the nightmare again, once Orphan is dead. Which is not the case. And for me, that’s because Gehrmann is still in the hunter’s dream as host of the Hunter’s nightmare. It’s just his memories.
Personally I think the ability to return to the various dreams is just a concession of game design. I personally believe the dreams crumble once the host+great one are killed… we just don’t get to see that. But I could be wrong.
It’s worth noting though I’m not sure if the interpretation is that the orphan is getting revenge for the fishing hook - after Kos washed up on shore the people of the fishing hamlet all became infected with the Kos parasite and in some sense became Kos’ surrogate children (the body of Kos and its parasites being harvested around town is also reminiscent of stories of whales washing up on beaches and saving small villages with the resources that it provided - I think they were sometimes called god whales.) It was then the Birgenworth scholars and hunters l came to the village and desecrated the people there, tore them apart, dissected and enacted horrible research on them. It’s also implied that they also found the orphan in the body of Kos, and that’s where the umbilical chord in the real hunters workshop came from. In a strange way I guess, Kos/The Orphan were not only taking revenge for themselves, but also for the people of the fishing hamlet who got caught up in the mix of things. It’s unclear whether Kos “adopting” the people of the village was out of revenge, or just was a part of the nature of the great ones. But it is clear to me at least to some degree that the desecration of the people who took after her was not taken lightly by the Orphan.
They got her by mistake while they tried to fish food, and they found a great one, so they embraced her as their goddess, until master willem sent gehrman and maria among other hunters to kill her or if she was already dead, just to desecrate her body in order to take the umbilical cord for willem to consume it and gain insight. But they didnt found it and thats why they murdered the whole fishing hamlet to find it
I dont know if this is an outlandish claim, but I feel like its got a really solid ground to be plausible. I think the Orphan of Kos, was once the child of Maria and Gherman, reborn in the womb of Kos. The things that lead me to this idea is a few ideas about the relationship between German, Maria and the Orphan. Firstly, German's apparent ability to rest makes me wonder what could be so unnerving about the Orphan that causes him to suffer "Oh, good hunter. I can hear herman sleeping. On any other night, he'd be restless. But on this night, he sounds so very calm. perhaps something has eased his suffering" As the doll says Secondly is his relationship with Maria. I think that Maria and Gherman may have become romantically involved, leading to them baring a child. She after all "had great admiration for Gehrman" as per her armour pieces. This leads into the doll, which has a connection to Maria also, but I think she is an effigy made by Gherman after the fact which I will get into later. This culminates to this final postulation; that German conspired with Ludwig and Lawrence, after experimentations on the fishing hamlet residences as well as people in the research where under way, to take the child of Maria and Gherman, and stuff it into Kos's womb in hopes that it would be "Reborn" as a great one. This could also be whats referred to as Gherman's "curious mania" being a very unhealthy obsession with this idea lead him to partake in horrific acts. I think this idea of rebirth is not far-fetched when you consider the one reborn was a later experiment of what can be considered similar thinking. What makes this a great secret is that not only was the first hunters child involved, but the idea of a child being treated like this by the church is abhorrent beyond all manner of description. The aftermath becomes the hunters nightmare, which was orchestrated by Maria herself. I think that she found out about this, and it crushed her beyond belief, as it would. In some way this grief may have caused a great one to reach out to her, giving her some way to hide the fishing hamlet, and all those things within the dream, but thats just a speculative idea to fill the gap. Nonetheless she sits at the top, like a caretaker, or host. one detail on Maria I remember seeing is a bloody stomach, as if a child was cut out, correct me if I am wrong its hard to remember with all the blood. Anyhow. The two other conspirators I said were Lawrence and Ludwig, I mention these two by way of citing that Gherman knows Lawrence, and by deducing that Gherman is the first hunter who had students like maria, it could be said Ludwig would have been one too. But moreso they are in the dream in very dismal states, I think this is a punishment, an eternal curse for them to live out for defiling Maria's child. This is I would say support by the fact its not very clear whether ludwig is guarding the secret or simply in the way, and I lean to being in the way without much idea he is guarding it. Lawrence gets the luxury of being eternally on fire as a beast that he would probably have been very familiar with, which would be fitting for his punishment. Gherman, however is not being punished, and if you believe that Maria is leading this punishment, then I think that she could not bring herself to hurt Gherman, so she cut ties with him. That brings us to Gherman's current state, I think that in his grief and regret for his actions he created the doll, an effigy to maria that he would tend to to keep himself company. In the hunters dream, this doll becomes a living being that Gherman seems to have intimate relations with, to fill the void that was left by his actions, and explains the dolls connection to maria whilst being her own thing. The Orphan itself I think gestated within Kos for a time, and Kos did not wash ashore until after much of the events of the Fishing hamlet took place. The church (whom of which involves our three suspects) may have found the hamlet, ransacked it and then captured Kos, forcing her to become beached, and then put the child inside while Kos was alive for a time, but this only sped up her death, perhaps even poisoning her. One final thing attribute to Maria being the mother of whatever the Orphan of Kos was, is the adage uttered upon entering the hunters nightmare. "Curse the Fiends and the children too, and their children forever true" | always believed maria said this, and I think her reasoning for this is if she cant have her child she never wants anyone involved to have happy children either. A somewhat malicious but contextually reasonable thing to want. There are many things in this theory I think i may have missed, perhaps details suggesting otherwise, if there is anything I missed or anything I may have misread or such, please let me know.
I'm of the opinion that kos potentially let herself die just as she was about to give birth. She wished for her child to live over herself, and so she tried to subvert the rule. But this was ruined by byrgenwerth and the old hunters who killed it as part of their careless experiments.
The orphan doesn’t create the nightmare, kos herself does, she isn’t dead, she is seperated from her mortal body, more like she returned to her home away from the mortals.
As far I my interpretation of the information we have goes I thought Kos washed up dead. That the hunters sin was more so the atrocities they committed against the people of the Hamlet who until then gave them reverence and protection. This plus the utter tter disrespect of defiling the corpse of Kos and severing the ambilical cord, were the sins they would be punished for. I have to wonder if they had simply left Kos alone if they would have been punished, if freeing the consciousness of the orphan is what allowed it to create the hunters nightmare and seek it's revenge.
I DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE THE PLACENTA WAS STABBED BY A HUGE HOOK! I ALWAYS JUST THOUGHT IT WAS ODDLY SHRIMP SHAPED! This is why I love this channel, I always learn interesting little facts about the games I love.
In a way we end our half-sibling as all hunters that come after the first are victims too in that they are trapped in the dream like slaves. Just like Simon lamented, it was not fair that others had to endure such torment as a result of their fathers' sins.
Why is it every time I’m happy about finally defeating a boss in the game, I later find out that said boss has a depressing backstory and now I feel terrible?
Think of it more like putting the monster out of its misery. And returning a lost child to his mother (cause we know he returns to the sea once you beat him).
the fishing hamlet was hidden behind the tower and guarded because they had killed kos. it was a great shame for the hunters that realised their bloodlust had caused them to kill something wishing no harm
Man, i struggled with this boss for so long. Then something clicked, and i just understood staying close and side stepping everything now n then was the key. Like the world deadliest waltz
As one famous fromsoft content youtuber said: "The Orphan of Kos is a beast in pain and we are Hunters who must hunt beats. So we must do what we do best"
I wonder why you consider the orphan to be the source of the nightmare, rather than Kos herself. "The wrath of mother Kos" line always suggesyed to me that she was the creator of the nightmare. It also makes more sense that a Great One would have the power to create a nightmare realm. Seems illogical that a newborne would be capable of such a feat.
Since the entire premise of the Hunters' Nightmare is that everything in it is already dead, my running theory is that the real Lady Maria killed the real Orphan of Kos in the real Fishing Hamlet when she was there. Assuming it was as physically and emotionally difficult for her as it was for me, I *totally* get why she's in the state she's in when we find her...
I was today years old when I realized that that is a fishing hook, and not just a freak bit of biology that gave the Orphan a solid weapon to beat us with
The people of the fishing hamlet didn't kill her, they were worshiping her and then the healing church caught wind of a great one manifesting in the fishing hamlet so hunters were sent to capture and experiment on people in the village to check if they had eyes on the inside of their heads. they killed kos and the survivors of the village begged for the hunters to be cursed for what they did and so the hunters nightmare was created and sustained by the orphan of kos's hatred for its mothers killers.
This is the first time I’ve heard someone suggest that Kos was killed by the fishing hamlet citizens themselves, instead of her attackers being the students of Byrgenwerth
Been wanting to get into animation so I can animate boss fights from Bloodborne. This one in particular I had a lot of thoughts about, like the Hunter having tears in their eyes as the orphan emerges, then it throws the hook at them and they just sidestep it. Realizing what they have to do, the Hunter pushes the sadness aside, transforms their weapon, and rushes into battle.
"It isn't right, it's just necessary." Perfectly encapsulates what the player must do throughout bloodborne. From putting down the rabid Gascoigne to the killing of the wailing Mergo.
Playing that dlc I noticed it was called old hunter’s dream and the only old hunter we see is Gehrman who’s the first hunter and he made the doll who helps us based on maria his student who he loved and left on the clock tower and for some reason I thought that the orphan of cos is his child since it was his dream.
I once went to my cousins house when I was young never had gotten past the first area in any souls game and I got orphan of kos to like half health with 20 blood vials on my second try still bragging about it to this day
The Orphan of Kos || Boss Designs of Bloodborne episode 16: ruclips.net/video/RaoamGdJ52U/видео.html
@@sanguine2552 no the nightmare is the dlc dimension it created that
A fishing hook....or the blade of a particular scythe. The orphans cry, is the exact same cry of an Old Hunter, a Hunter who weeps in his nightmares.
The thing crawls out of its dead mother’s womb then immediately begins beating you to death with the thing that killed her. That’s the most metal thing I’ve ever heard
Brutal
Kubone in a nutshell.
On paper, it's a very on the nose metaphor, but it's so very well executed.
@@penjamin1479 I am normally quite good at seeing metaphor, and maybe I'm just too sleepy today, but what is the metaphor to which you allude and which TBSyen feared would get him demonetized to talk about?
@@thaumatomane well, Äb0rtí0n i think.
y'know... the whole Metal coat hanger wire hook thing?
at least that's my closes guess.
“It’s not right, it’s just necessary”, THAT is a killer line
But not necessarily true.
@@joshuagross3151yeah, if anything it’s the exact opposite of that. DLC is fully optional, so you can completely ignore it if you wish to. Killing the orphan lets everyone to be put to rest, hence it is the right thing to do.
@@SalvageETyou're tripping over the ambiguity of language. You're taking "necessary" to mean "a strictly mandatory action", where the use in the video is more "an action you are bound by morals or duty to perform", which is essentially your version of "right" - morally sound. But "right" in the video is regarding the fact that you aren't doing a justice, the world doesn't end up a good place, you are just cleaning up after a tragedy.
@@CheshireSwift”You aren’t doing a justice. The world doesn’t end up a good place. You’re just cleaning up after a tragedy.” Goes kinda hard tho.
You know what else is a killer line? The one that hook was attached to
Correction: It doesn't just curse the people that killed Kos. It also curses their children. And their children's children.
Dungeaters origin from bloodborne
Forever true
“Curse the fiends, their children too” (Lady Maria of the Astral Clock Tower).
@@Prince_MammonUnleash it upon them! A cursed blessing to all!
@@Aden877A curse for you, A curse for me, A curse for all that there is and can be.
My favorite part of the orphan is that as it looks into the moon, it weeps, initially high pitched and then immediately becomes much more deep and adult-like. Perhaps signifying the corruption of its innocence or how it was immediately taken away from its mother and used for whatever the academy used it for.
Fun fact: The adult weeping voice clip is Gehrman’s.
I believe that’s actually the sun.
There is no making things right. Only better than they were.
Kratos is wiser than he seems.
@@piter1473 hey man it took him like 6 games but he's being pretty wise now. I don't even think his games were about revenge is bad just not letting your hatred and anger consume ya when ya get it.
@@Kris-wo4pj there's way more than 6 games with the spinoffs
@@8BitsOfFun1323 the greek saga has 7 if you wanna count betrayal
"I don't think we will ever get back to good. but if we wake up every day trying to make things better, one day we will find better is good enough."
THAT’S A FISHING HOOK?
I JUST SPENT 3 YEARS THINKING IT WAS JUST A REALLY SHARP PLACENTA
Lmao
Looks more like siderite.
Same, I still cannot see the fishing hook to be honest.
@@daifuku75 I think he might be reaching
@@joshuagross3151There's some metal parts protruding.
Watch carefully when the Orphan calls the lightning down and you'll see the blast is centered on Kos and radiates out from her corpse. He's trying and failing to revive her.
I always interpreted it as him calling for his mother to help and her replying as best she can
@@ivanlagayacrus1891Perhaps the lighting was Kos's conciousness trying to go back to the physical body so she could protect her child each time she heard him cried, but of course it was futile
That is sooooo sad
D:
@@BlankEmporium You can certainly interpret it that way, but I will stand by my interpretation. I think it adds something tragic and sympathetic to the Orphan of Kos as a character, and makes it deeper than just a naked screaming zombie man who inexplicably hits like an 18 wheeler. (apologies if this is a long comment, i just love Bloodborne)
The Hunter's Nightmare is the Orphan's plane of existence. Here, it doesn't need to be that small frail wisp clinging to Kos' body. It can make itself into an embodiment of hate and grief and murderous rage to strike back at the hunters for what they did to it -- ironically using a fighting style that imitates them. The Orphan truly IS the Hunter's Nightmare, and on this plane it is the most powerful being in existence. It can transform, and call down lightning. But even with all of this power its mother is still dead, and nothing it does can ever change that.
Of course, in the end, the Orphan IS forced back to the form of a small frail wisp. Because you take all the hate it has and overpower it anyway. You make it feel like prey again. And then you kill it. Again.
Tragedy is a recurring theme throughout The Old Hunters. Ludwig fell to beasthood. Maria was torn apart by her own guilt. The Orphan's story is maybe the most tragic of all of them -- it's absolutely the victim in this story, but in the end all of its righteous fury wasn't enough.
tl;dr you're not really fighting the Orphan at all, you're fighting its grief
It's like the Orphan tried to bring out the scariest thing it could think of and settled on Gehrman, but it's warped through the eyes of a frightened infant that doesn't understand what's happening or why.
The eldritch nightmare of an eldritch nightmare.
Considering Gehrman and his compatriots butchered the villagers in the hamlet, the Orphan is right. Gehrman is one scary motherfucker.
Well, we've seen what the old man can do. I can only imagine what he does in his prime... Ever wonder why there are only 4 Sharks in the Fishing Hamlet?
It's sad that you're under threat of demonization, I find your work wonderful. Dark topics, thematic implications, deeply rooted pain in art and satire of the human existence. Please, carry on with my thanks.
chad
absolute gigachad move right here
Thank you so much!
You cant talk about soulsborne without dark and pain themes, sad
When soulsborne games can’t be analyzed under the threat of demonetization
Ahh, sweet child of Kos, returned to the ocean... A bottomless curse, a bottomless sea. Accepting of all that there is and can be...
Ohhh ohh oh oh oooooh sweet child of kosss
As you once did for the Vacuous Rom…
*thousand eyed pigs spawn*
I needed a bottomless shot of Jack Daniels after I beat this monstrosity. Took me over 50 tries but I finally slaughtered it and the feeling felt like I had sperm retention for over a decade and I get to finally CUMMMFPK 😁(that’s a blood echo farming glyph for those who are not in the know) 🫡
I remember when me and some friends first played trough this and encountered Kos, ones initial reaction was to ask:" Why there is a guy crawling out of the jelly fish?"
And ignoring the shock of that, it got me to think, why does the Orphan looked so... human. I mean, mother Kos also has some features that come close to being human, but the child could be mistaken for an old men from a distance.
I personally like to think that it is because of the father. Not literall speaking mind you. The orphan is born from suffering, in a metaphorical sense. So of course it looks like those who brought said suffering to it and his mother. Let it be the carelessness of the fishermen, or the madness of the scholars. For me humanity is the father of the orphan of Kos.
So it isn't just an orphan by nature of having a dead mother, but also because its father abandoned it.
I like the implication about the humanity litterally abusing Mother Kos, Skyen did talk a lit about how women are depicted in Bloodborne, how they became easy victims and how their body gets abused by the schoolars (mainly men btw) to serve their greater desire.
The though that "the child of Kos was born from violence" can mean a lot if you read it with the mind of our world, that Kos was a mother not by choice but by abuse, or carelesness of someone, a fisherman, who couldn't care less and left her to die while giving birth. Quite meaningful implication if you read it that way too.
One of the things that makes Bloodborne unique among eldritch horror, is that its Great Old Ones usually don't mean harm but outright try to help the poor, confused specks of dust they come across.
So yeah~, doubly so given the fishing hamlet corrupted imagery echoing Lovecraft, it's... no impossible that Kos simply... loved at least one man, once.
I honestly like that implication, because it would explain why the fishing hamlet seems pretty pleased by their changes over all, and only react violently to intruders. It adds to the tragedy, that they might have accidentally undone their own goddess, by accidentally dragging her ashore so the Choir could find and 'study' her.
I was wondering why he looked so human. That would explain it.
I don't think the Orphan we fight in the DLC is the actual Orphan the Hunters found. After the fight, the ending cutscene only plays after the 'death' of the 'real' Orphan, a wispy shadow protruding from its mother's stomach.
I think for the DLC in particular, not everything should be taken literally; it takes place in a nightmare, a nightmare given reality on a different plane of existence, but a nightmare all the same. The Hunter's Dream and Nightmare are not accurate depictions of reality, as we see when we find the Hunter's Workshop, they're more based on the psyche of their Host who I believe to be Gehrman for both.
After the DLC the Doll says: "Oh, good hunter. I can hear Gehrman sleeping. On any other night, he'd be restless. But on this night, he sounds so very calm. ...perhaps something has eased his suffering" which suggests the hunter of 'The Hunter's Nightmare' refers to Gehrman, 'The First Hunter', recontextualizing the DLC to be about following Gehrman's guilt back through the exaggerated dream of the bloody history of his, and the association he helped create's, atrocities: the ruins of Yarnham filled with blood drunk hunters, the deformation of the church into Beasts, the horrors of the Research Hall, and of course, the death of his beloved Maria, whose grave leads us from dream to nightmare, all the way back to the heart of it all, the genocide and defilement that set off everything.
The kicker? before Gehrman is freed from his nightmares he can be heard crying in his sleep. These same sobs can be heard, albeit in a distorted form, from The Orphan of kos itself. who, now that we mention it, kinda looks like a fishy Gehrman right? All Great Ones yearn for a surrogate and Gehrman, in his nightmares at least, has taken the place of the child he murdered, forced to feel its grief, trapped in a prison of his own guilt.
I'm pulling this out of my ass here but MAYBE the reason why the Orphan look so much like a grown man is because of...trauma?
The mind of a great one is strong, I wouldn't be surprise if the orphan can perceive things even from inside the womb, but it's still a fetus when Mother Kos got slaughtered and then studied.
Who had done the most damage to him and his mother? Men. It was men who killed his mother, it was hunters who studied her corpse. Maybe the fetus wasn't developed yet when it got ripped out, but we fight the Orphan in its own nightmare. The mind of The Great Ones are great after all, so why wouldn't it be able to take any form it thought would keep it safe in its own realm?
If his mother died by the hand of human, what could he turn into to fight those human off but another human? After all victims can sometimes turn into an abuser themselves if they thought that was the only they can protect themselves from any further harm.
I have no evident to support tho, my brain is just sleepy so it drunkenly cooked up something.
I did notice a bit of metal with the orphans “weapon” but I never put together that it was a fishhook.
I just assumed that Elder God biology means ‘don’t assume there ISN’T metal there’
The big irony is that by the sheer fact that one of the boss is named ‘orphan of Kos.’
Means that they were one of, if not the only outer God with the ability to have children without human intervention.
Meaning by killing it, they literally caused the the hunt.
While I mostly agree with you (even the hook part and everything) there's an implication that just like Old Ones can't have children so they take surrogates, if they manage to have a child somehow they are destined to die.
But there is also a contradiction in this bc Ebbrietas is the daughter of the Cosmos
And you know a nice madman in a nightmare once said: Kosmos-Kosm-Kos...
@@peterjusztin7177 that’s what I mean, Kos may well have been the only elder God capable of having children on its own.
So the death of it becomes even more devastating for everybody involved, because now it means even more that the elder gods need humans to procreate meaning more hunts .
@@peterjusztin7177 honestly think the whole daughter of the cosmos thing isn’t referring to kos. It’s probably more related to he being highly linked to the cosmos itself. Could be wrong obviously, I mainly think this because not much points to any relation with kos
@@peterjusztin7177 It's entirely possible it's just Kin and not a proper Great One.
Not necessarily true. Remember that every Great One inevitably loses it's child. The Orphan's "survival" suggests it's childten may survive if it's mother dies instead.
One thing I like about the Orphans design is that it much more closely resembles a classical angel than any of the other eldritch horrors encountered. There's definitely deeper religious subtext there that I cannot figure out cause I am really bad at media and design analysis.
It looks like Gherman, that's what
Un señor muy viejo con unas alas enormes.
It's a tale about the old powerless man with wings. First, people revered him, but as the time went, so did any respect toward that winged miracle.
@@cnut7383 pretty sure the orphan is supposed to be stillborn
@@jaimeestrada2671 yeah. when the hunters/scholars raided the village, they caused the Orphan's "death" which is why Kos created the Nightmare, as well as how they killed so many of Kos' followers.
It's an inversion of abortion. Instead of it dying, its mother died instead and it's left confused, frightened and angry, although I think the villagers of the Fishing Hamlet wanted Kos to die and didn't realize that she was pregnant.
Pretty sure that's why he doesn't want to get demonetized because mentioning abortion probably is an easy way to get demonetized.
A theme seen in the old ones in this game is: they can only have a child after their death.
The game says that all old ones seek a surrogate because they are destined to lose their child
@@AberrantKoala true but the inverse is also true: Kos dies to have her child, the Moon Presence has to die for us to be born a Great One etc
And then there's oedon who's just built different
Which is to say: not built at all
Skyen just one thing. you can hear German cry in his wheelchair in the hunter's dream, weeping while remembering the horrors he did in the fishing hamlet with his comerades. The cry you hear in the hunters nightmare are Germans.
He remembers.
He is suffering.
That's why you free him when you kill the nightmare, that's why the doll thanks you.
German wasnt a part of the Hamlet horrors, that was Maria. And while Gehrman weeps for her, for all of his students who suffers, for the endless night he must endure, he had nothing to do with the death of Kos directly. And you free him not from the Nightmare, but from the Moon Prescense who he made a bargain with to trap Yharnam in its dream state until things could be made right.
@@jstin8 that's cool, how do we know the bargain was specifically for that? Or is it a personal theory?
@@jstin8 Pretty sure Gherman was apart of that group of hunters as he was the first hunter. Maria was his apprentience. He showed her how to be vicious and she gave up her blade after commiting horrible acts upon the Fishing Hamlet, swearing not to let any hunters go back there. Also Gherman had a thing for her and created a submissive doll in her image which is heavily implied to be used for sexual stuff.
@@jstin8 gerhmen was there? You literally see him walking through the fishing Hamlet in the trailer..
@@blacksesamecandiesPOV of a misinformation dude, who is now cursed to remember this before death Bastard
"The Orphan of Kos is a victim chose death is tragic."
Bro it's fucking birth is tragic that's a record no other Fromsoftware character managed to beat.
“This too is Hunter’s work, but bares no honor.”
There is some lore missing here that puts more context to this in an interesting way. The Kos Parasite item description says that Kos "washed up dead on the shore" and that the parasites within her were what caused the villagers to transform, attracting the scholars (back then belonging to Byrgenwerth as the church did not exist yet).
It is unknown if Kos was killed by the villagers, the parasites or just died of old age, but it's interesting to think that the Hunter's Nightmare came into existence through an accident.
I mean, think about it. Kos dies through unknown means, is washed ashore, the parasites start mutating people and Byrgenwerth sends its hunters to sack the village, dragging people away to experiment on them and killing those to far gone. The dead and dying of the hamlet cast a desperate blood-curse on Byrgenwerth and their successors (the same curse you hear from the guy walking around as you exit the clocktower) and given that Great Ones are sympathetic to humans and can listen to curses, the Orphan listened to the blood curse and cast it on Byrgenwerth, dragging them and their descendants into the nightmare.
Also an interesting thing is that this kind of gave rise to my theory that Simon, the Harrowed hunter, is in fact none other than the son of Laurence.
Let me break it down:
- Simom tells us that the Nightmare is where hunters go "when drunk with blood." This is good enough of an explanation at first since we do see many blood-crazed hunters just massacring beasts left and right without reason. But wait. Hang on. There are several people who AREN'T blood-drunk. Maria, the patients tied down, Yamamura, Brador...Simon himself? So why is HE here? We know Maria was part of the search, the patients are most likely aspects of the villagers or their descendants, Brador was a church assassin and most likely also involved, Yamamura...I actually can't explain him, maybe he was the son of a traveler and a Yharnam person, but Simon has seemingly no explanation in his past.
- So Simon is either a former scholar or descended from SOMEONE at Byrgenwerth. The simpler choice would be that he was Willem's student but sided with Laurence during the schism and came to Yarnham with him. But that doesn't work as he refers to Byrgenwerth, the ones who 'sinned', as his 'forefathers' so he didn't study there. Not to mention, he doesn't know what Byrgenwerth's true 'secret' is, he doesn't even think they are responsible, he calls it "The Healing Church's secret" so he wasn't a part of Byrgenwerth when this happened and only heard or read about it. Putting all these pieces together, this proves he is the descendant of someone.
- So he is a descendant of Byrgenwerth. But question, whose? Now this is where my theory takes an admittedly biased choice. Though it would be reasonable to assume that Simon is the son of just some nameless researcher who was chummy with Laurence, but I'll assume he is the child of someone important. Additionally, given his position as a harrowed hunter (essentially a spy for the church) and the fact he seems intimately familiar with dark topics that even people like Ludwig were not privy to, that would suggest to me he is the son of someone with some pull in the church and/or Byrgenwerth. But whose son is he?
- At this point, this game becomes about eliminating the unlikely and narrowing down the list of potential candidates:
- Willem could be, but doubtful. For one, Willem didn't seem interested in such things and I doubt Laurence would make the son of his most bitter rival one of his premier spies. Plus, how would that have even hapoened to get Simon away from Byrgenwerth and his father and under Laurence's influence.
- Definitely not the son of Gehrman or Micolash. Similar in disinterest to Willem (Gehrman had his doll fetish but still unlikely) but also they were quite dedicated to their goals and work and would most likely not have pursued a family. Additionally, since Micolash became hostile to the Choir and Laurence's private circle, I doubt the latter would make his son a spy.
- He's also unlikely to be a son of Maria as she killed herself while still heading the research hall as a young woman and didn't seem like a mother with child. Ludwig can also be ruled out, mainly since he was a thug and a soldier, unaware of secretive things and thus if he had any children, they'd most likely become city hunters themselves, not spies.
- Other major characters, such as the Madaras twins, Valtr, Rom (as a human), Brador, Amelia, Djura, Gascoigne, Henryk, Eileen, etc. are not even worth considering as they have either no ties to Byrgenwerth (like Brador, Valtr or Gascoigne) or the old hunters (like Amelia who is likely too young to be his mom). The only, or rather, the best candidate, is Laurence.
- My reasoning is as follows: Laurence is a former Byrgenwerth scholar, so he and his children would be and in fact are affected by the blood curse. Laurence is also the very first vicar and given his lust for power, he could reasonably be considered capable and willing to put his son into such an important position as a spy, either through nepotism or just regular pressure on his child to take up the job. There is also the fact that Simon knows and seeks secrets and calls the research hall the Healing Church's great secret. His connection to secrets, position as one of the very first Harrowed hunters and lineage all make Laurence a perfect candidate.
- Another thing to consider is this: Simon follows you through the Nightmare as you make your march of death through Laurence's former cronies alk the way to the fishing hamlet where Brador kilks him. He stops in several areas and gives you suggestions, such as killing Maria and telling you that Ludwig was a 'poor brute.' But there is one crucial part he does not approach, that being the corrupted cathedral and Laurence's resting place. Could this be due to either sorrow for his father or fear of the new monster his loved one has become? Either way, it's curious that Simon, a man with such intimate knowledge of the church and its secrets, misses the one dude most responsible for the entire beastblood curse as well as the clear HQ of the Church. He also never mentions any vicars or the Church's leadership at all, only talking of the Church as this massive, seemingly sentient entity.
But then how did he end up in the Nightmare? Well seeing that the only sane people in the Nightmare are dead in the real world (plus the Good Hunter who got here by mixing blood-drunk eyeball with Amygdala and downing it) it is likely that Simon is dead. But how and why? There can be a number of reasons, but his dialogue suggests Brador as the sole culprit. He mentions Brador coming after him 'again and again' which foretells the several Brador summons that attack you later on in the fishery area. Ah, so clearly Simon had been killed over and over again by Brador right? Well no, as there is one crucial detail here:
SIMON IS NOT A DREAM HUNTER, HE CANNOT REVIVE AFTER DYING!
This is why, like Maria before him, once he fully dies, he stays dead. My guess would be, once Laurence, his father, was killed by church hunters under mysterious circumstances (likely they hushed it up, lest people be frightened that a cleric was turned into a beast) he began to look into the Healing Church's secrets to find out why. During his investigation, he got into the fishing hamlet's case and this alerted Brador who hunted him down and killed him as per his duties, likely as his loyalties were now not to Simon's father but the second vicar (maybe Amelia). Awaking in the nightmare, Simon followed the Good Hunter's trail of butchery while still searching for answers, until an alternate version of Brador tracked him down and killed him here too. And with his dying breath, he passes on the key to Brador's cell and his bow blade, all but begging you to finish his task and lamenting how the sins of the forefathers cannot be born by him and other descendants.
A sad, tragic story, but so are most in Yarnham.
Thank you for reading my long post and I hope you enjoyed my theory!
My eyes are opened
I think it's an okay theory, but there's issues.
Similarly to Gehrman, Laurence was obsessed with his work, with Laurence specifically looking into how to become a Great One. He studied the Blood with the intention to ascend, that's why he's the first Cleric Beast, and why he has the fire powers we see in Beast-possessed souls, he went to ridiculous means to become a God, and I doubt he'd waste time with having any form of family or intimate relations.
We also know that while Amelia is the last Vicar, she's the last of a long line following after Laurence, even wearing his necklace, which is a blood gem, and we know from Gascoigne's wife that blood gem jewellery is given from Hunters to their loved ones.
Unless there's another female hunter we aren't privy to, I doubt Laurence was having relations with non-hunters based on his necklace.
Father's who abandon their children is a common theme, and with how Simon talks about Ludwig, I'd put more money on him being one of Ludwig's descendants than Laurence
@@abithefallenhuman921 Hmmmm, interesting points, though the blood gem could have simply remained as a keepsake and either been handed down to Amelia or as a relic to the Church. Just because it was a common thing doesn't mean he had to do it.
As for Laurence's ambition, true, he was rather married to his ambitions, but he was still a young man when he left Willem's school and I think he's more likely to start a family than Micolash or Gehrman.
He might have even courted one of the Cainhurst noblewomen or one of the Yarnham high society to gsin power. The guy is more political machinator and mad cultist than a crazy scholar type like Micolash, so I see him potentially getting married, if only to further his goals.
As for Ludvig, very interesting. What about Simon's dialogue about him makes you think so? Please tell me, this is really interesting. I didn't consider Ludvig likely because of two things.
For one, I personally didn't see Simon's comments about Ludvig that personal or interesting. He even seems to mock Ludvig as "a poor brute who died with his ideals untarnished." This is why I'd love to read why you think otherwise.
The second is that given their ranks, it'd make me think that Simon would be raised more as a church hunter than a harrowed spy if he was Ludvig's son. Given how obsessed Ludvig was with his 'honourable spartans' to the point that that is the only thing he clings to even in the Nightmare, beyond his friendship to Gehrman, his attachment to the Church or anything else, you'd think he'd want his kid to be an 'honourable hunter' too if it came to that.
This makes absolutely zero sense and is totally made up. Like there is no evidence at all in the game that would even give room for interpretations
@@JumpRopeQueen111 Well, that's just like...totally your opinion maaaaan...
"Sweet child of Kos, a bottomless curse, a bottomless sea, accepting all that ever was and can be."
Much like how the Queen was blessed against her will and the child she was forced to carry was forcefully taken from her, the orphans mother was taken from him before he even saw the face of his own mother like the Queen will never know how her child would have looked in her arms.
A mother who's unborne child was taken and a unborne child who's mother was taken.
I believe that Mother Kos made the Hunters Nightmare to protect the Orphan, and punish the Blood Addled Hunters, killing two birds with one stone. Which is why when the Orphan screams, Kos’s corpse emits lighting. Because Kos is protecting its child.
so your saying that the orphan of kos…is literal nightmare fuel?
*"M-m..Mother, Where are you... it's so cold and I'm scared.... scared of the monsters with swords and scary voices..."*
"get back here you oversized aborted fetus!!!"
"There is no justice, there's just us" - Death from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series.
There's no right or wrong, just the best choice available. Morality is as muddy as can be in this section of the story.
It's not that the fishermen really killed Kos, but what the hook really might mean is that they caught her while out at sea, brought her to shore regardless of he well being and by the time she got there, she might've already died. This in turn caused the parasites to burst and crawl out from inside of her, which might mean that either she always had them in there, or she was pregnant and... Those might be undeveloped fetuses. The lne thing left unexplained regarding the Orphan's existence is its connection to Gehrman, but there might be a plausible explanation to it. Through his dialogue, we know Gehrman knew who Laurence and Willem were and might've developed a friendship with them, since not only he was there from the very beginning, but he saw the foundation of the Healing Church and its Hunters. The Dream is, to Gehrman, what the Nightmare is to Blood Drunk Hunters and Simon, forced to forever be trapped in there without the ability to be freed. Only by Killing Gehrman and the Orphan, the Dream and Nightmare come to an end. Where Micolash uses Mergo to be the Host in the Nightmare of Mensis, Gehrman and the Orphan are the respective Hosts of the Dream and the Hunter's Nightmare.
There is no hook though, the weapon is just a big blob of placenta that he likes to hit you with.
@@peacemaster8117 yes, there is. If you look closely, it's hooked to the placenta, you can even see the rope he uses for the ranged attacks against you.
@@peacemaster8117 3 months late, but there is indeed a hook there
Its easily visible on the concept art too
Isn't Kos the host of the nightmare?
@@panna7241That's not a rope, that's his umbilical cord. It's even attached to his belly.
My first reaction to this thing was
"HOLY JESUS CHRIST YOU'RE FAST"
In hindsight, Gherman and his crew should have probably realized earlier that butchering all of a god's worshippers as well defiling her corpse and unborn child would make her a bit mad.
What I like about the Orphan of Kos ,despite what other seem to say in this comment section, is that it emerges from its mother as a curious child. The first thing it sees is a cruel imitation of a moon, the second is the corpse of its mother, and the third is the Hunter. It is alone and afraid, attacking not out of fury but out of self defense. Amidst the hunt we see another beast to put down, only once we are done with the deed we realize we have killed a child. A powerful God, but a child nonetheless. While we can free it's soul from the Hunter's nightmare, we are still not free from the Hunt or the bloodlust that will doom us to the same nightmare.
The child was already dead. It was a bundle of emotion, held together by a curse.
I adore the detail that it does look human and gives off an eeriely cry thats reminiscent of Gehrman. The doll also mentions that Gehrman is sleeping soundly this night after you slay the Orphan, implying their even deeper connection. Gehrman was probably the one to slay the actual orphan; and with him probably being what it saw before its death, it took the form in the dream of what its hatred stemed from: The merciless first hunter.
Huh...I always thought it was Kos herself that made the nightmare. Since killing the body didn't kill the great old one in it's entirety, and the orphan was just trapped. Though this also makes sense.
also something interesting is that the orphan is weirdly human ? he almost looks like a hunter, with his weapon that can be used like either a whip or a hammer. maybe one of the things that hunter are tortured by is an image of them as the orphan sees them. a pathetic monster that only knows rage and sorrow
Remember humans and the Old Ones came from the same place
Or you could reverse that observation. Since, by logic, it came first, the Orphan is not copying the shape and trick weapons of the Hunter, the Hunter is copying from the Orphan.
@@Vesperitis Interesting, but that wouldn't really make sense
Well, you can look at it as the Orphan's "Father" *being* a human- or rather, an entire demographic of humans, or even humanity on the whole.
If we assume that Kos died due to the fishing spear that attacked her, and the Orphan's current state being because Gherman and his fellow hunters further defiled her body, slaughtering her worshippers and destroying the village...
Well. The Orphan as we see it could be said to have been conceived by an act of violence. Or, more bluntly, we can say that the Orphan was conceived in an act of rape- but one committed against not just Kos, but the entire village.
@@alchemysaga3745naw son that’s a jellyfish that ate a old man
"let's go murder some orphans!"
"You mean the Orphan of Kos right?"
"..."
"R I G H T ?"
I never notced the fishing hook piercing the placenta until this video and that's incredibly fucked up.
This boss is Actually kinda scary
Ive never seen a Bloodborne Boss Attack that quickly
jesus christ ive never played this game and idk who rhis is or anything about them, but their attacks EMBODY the things you explained. ive seen alot of your analysis on bloodborne recently and the game looks incredible, im very convinced on checking it out. the way this enemy fights is so desperate and enraged?? i dont even know how to explain it. so perfect
Play it. You won't regret it.
From what I've seen/read from the game, the timeline I can piece together goes like this:
The people of the fishing hamlet worshiped or simply lived in communion with Kos - it can be inferred that this arrangement was mutually beneficial, with Kos blessing their fishing, etc. The love the people of the fishing hamlet had for Kos is reflected in the various dialogues of NPC's throughout the fishing hamlet. They even call her 'Mother,' which can either infer how they felt about her or a bitter indictment on what was done to the Orphan.
At some point this arrangement came to the attention of the scholars of Byrgenworth, who then at some point enacted the raid on the fishing hamlet in order to claim the power of the Great One Kos for their own ends. The game has countless examples of dismembered body parts still carrying the powers of the entities they were taken from. If Mother Kos would not grant her boon to the elite of Byrgenworth - or even failed to grant them ENOUGH of a boon for their own satisfaction - then they endeavored to take what they wanted by force.
Again it can be inferred that this involved sending hunters in to subdue the people of the hamlet so that ships could be taken into the nearby waters to trap Kos - clearly with the very hook embedded in the placenta the Orphan wields.
I like the idea that, since this is clearly a Nightmare, therefore, in the plane of dreams, it doesn't have to be taken literally.
Due to the remarks of the doll after you beat the Orphan, the pretty much same but distorted audio of Gherman's weeping and the Orphan's cries, I believe he represents not humanity as a whole, like some people suggested, but the guilt, pain and sorrow of Gherman for the atrocities him, Maria and the Church forced upon the village and the horrible experiments done with the actual orphan of Kos. It is his regret which causes the nightmare, his guilt and sorrow.
Guilt for what he forced upon the innocent people of the village, guilt for what he allowed to be done to the real Orphan, guilt for driving Maria to suicide, maybe not directly, but clearly a result of his own acrions.
And many who are guilty of something so harsh, you can't make it right, you can't turn back time and stop what you've already done. All you can do is put those thoughts to rest, come into terms with what you've done, accept the guilt and move on. But you can't make it right... No one can in this case. All you can do? Stop the pain.
I really find my brain so curious, since it has decided to be dysphoric over Bloodborne's birthing imagery
Happens to the best of us
Bloodborne is after all a game about how much menstruation sucks
sanest eldritch horror fan
blinks.
@@thebaseandtriflingcreature174 bloodborn is about living in england
I have never played Bloodborne but as many of these shorts as Ive watched so far about the characters, Im hyping myself up for it🔥🔥🔥its gorgeous
Was literally born moments ago and chose violence. Miyazaki,never change.
As stated in the video fighting the Orphan isn't redemption. We are putting it down, out of it's misery. That's the story beat he mentions, I believe.
I remember dialogue from the game, not sure which Old Hunter it was, but i'm pretty sure there's dialogue/lore talking about "What we did" (Said with shame and regret) with regards to the Old Hunters and Kos.
With that, i'm of the belief that Kos wasn't aggressive to mankind, but was killed for being otherworldly and it was only afterwards that the Old Hunters realised what they had done.
I think all of the orphan’s powers and abilities indicate that he’s so distracted by the terror of being born and the grief of losing his mother, that he’s unaware of his own god-like powers. Kind of like when a baby is born, they scream because of the scariness of what’s happening around them and unaware of how peircing their scream is. The entire fight is basically the hunter vs a frightened newborn baby with all the rage and power of a Great One.
I absolutely love Orphans design it’s one of my favorite fromsoft designs of all time however I never noticed that hook deep in the placenta that ABSOLUTELY recontextualizes everything. From my previous guess of Hunters simply hunting a symbol of worship for their corrupt reasons to the new horrid revelation that they defiled the body of a dead mother for their own sick reasons. Yeah I understand why Maria gated this knowledge as hard as she did
It’s as simple as
“It’s in pain and we need to make sure that it doesn’t suffer anymore”
When we had to put one of our dogs down my sister was the one who raised it and even found in a trash bag on the side of the road
After 14 years her body finally started to give out she had such bad Arthritis in her hips and legs she could t walk she was starting to go blind and it was time
When we took her the vet we spent awhile saying goodbye my sister was a sobbing mess my dad was sniveling and I was shoving back tears and my dad just kept saying one thing
“There there….it’s ok….no more pain….that pains all gone….there’s no more pain….”
It’s not about vengeance or putting something down it’s about ending the pain because it’s the right thing to do…
I feel like the Orphan of Kos wouldn't have created the nightmare if it weren't for the twisted and horrible experiments the college and its hunters preformed on the villagers and the corpse of Kos. It was bad enough that the villagers were literally praying to Kos to curse Byrgenwerth and the hunters associated with them.
Common Fishing Hook: 1
Eldritch God: 0
the worst part, that he is unique in their kind. The Great ones lost long ago the abilty of the traditional reproduction. But Koz, great of sea rediscover it. She could end the curse of the "every new child never appear to us" But the hunters make the mistake. The orphan must be kill, not for mercy of the old hunters, but for him. Like mergo
Kos was killed by the Scholars with Lawrence, Lady Maria and such, and it’s not the Orphan that controls the nightmare but the remaining consciousness of Kos herself, which is visible when you attack the dark spirit over her dead body, the nightmare gets freed.
Orphan of Kos always felt like having to put down a horribly mangled dog that's been maimed by a careless owner letting the dog run out onto the road, the dog getting run over and in it's pain and desperation it's lashing out at everything around it in sorrow and confusion as life suddenly is ripped out of it's control and all it can really do is thrash to prolong the inevitable.
- But I also know the deeper meaning to it and that just makes it even more grim. Especially the real life commentary.
Oh huh, I never noticed the hook, that really makes it all make sense
i think the saddest thing about abortion is there is no non-depressing answer.
Me after waking up from an afterschool nap be like:
It’s not our job to put the orphan to rest. It’s our job to relive this fight Gehrmann and Maria fought to understand the history of the hunters.
Although it says “nightmare slain”, we can still enter the hunter’s nightmare, which implies the nightmare is not over just because Orphan was killed. We can even finish Laurence after Orphan.
When I played the DLC, I thought, I would not be able to enter the nightmare again, once Orphan is dead. Which is not the case. And for me, that’s because Gehrmann is still in the hunter’s dream as host of the Hunter’s nightmare. It’s just his memories.
Personally I think the ability to return to the various dreams is just a concession of game design. I personally believe the dreams crumble once the host+great one are killed… we just don’t get to see that. But I could be wrong.
Some times the most merciful thing you can do is to stop the pain
I never realized that it was a fish hook! I just never questioned why it had a weapon.
It’s worth noting though I’m not sure if the interpretation is that the orphan is getting revenge for the fishing hook - after Kos washed up on shore the people of the fishing hamlet all became infected with the Kos parasite and in some sense became Kos’ surrogate children (the body of Kos and its parasites being harvested around town is also reminiscent of stories of whales washing up on beaches and saving small villages with the resources that it provided - I think they were sometimes called god whales.) It was then the Birgenworth scholars and hunters l came to the village and desecrated the people there, tore them apart, dissected and enacted horrible research on them. It’s also implied that they also found the orphan in the body of Kos, and that’s where the umbilical chord in the real hunters workshop came from.
In a strange way I guess, Kos/The Orphan were not only taking revenge for themselves, but also for the people of the fishing hamlet who got caught up in the mix of things. It’s unclear whether Kos “adopting” the people of the village was out of revenge, or just was a part of the nature of the great ones. But it is clear to me at least to some degree that the desecration of the people who took after her was not taken lightly by the Orphan.
The fishermen didnt mean to kill her
They got her by mistake while they tried to fish food, and they found a great one, so they embraced her as their goddess, until master willem sent gehrman and maria among other hunters to kill her or if she was already dead, just to desecrate her body in order to take the umbilical cord for willem to consume it and gain insight. But they didnt found it and thats why they murdered the whole fishing hamlet to find it
I dont know if this is an outlandish claim, but I feel like its got a really solid ground to be plausible.
I think the Orphan of Kos, was once the child of Maria and Gherman, reborn in the womb of Kos.
The things that lead me to this idea is a few ideas about the relationship between German, Maria and the Orphan. Firstly, German's apparent ability to rest makes me wonder what could be so unnerving about the Orphan that causes him to suffer "Oh, good hunter. I can hear herman sleeping. On any other night, he'd be restless. But on this night, he sounds so very calm. perhaps something has eased his suffering" As the doll says
Secondly is his relationship with Maria. I think that Maria and Gherman may have become romantically involved, leading to them baring a child. She after all
"had great admiration for Gehrman" as per her armour pieces. This leads into the doll, which has a connection to Maria also, but I think she is an effigy made by Gherman after the fact which I will get into later.
This culminates to this final postulation; that German conspired with Ludwig and Lawrence, after experimentations on the fishing hamlet residences as well as people in the research where under way, to take the child of Maria and Gherman, and stuff it into Kos's womb in hopes that it would be "Reborn" as a great one. This could also be whats referred to as Gherman's "curious mania" being a very unhealthy obsession with this idea lead him to partake in horrific acts. I think this idea of rebirth is not far-fetched when you consider the one reborn was a later experiment of what can be considered similar thinking. What makes this a great secret is that not only was the first hunters child involved, but the idea of a child being treated like this by the church is abhorrent beyond all manner of description.
The aftermath becomes the hunters nightmare, which was orchestrated by Maria herself. I think that she found out about this, and it crushed her beyond belief, as it would. In some way this grief may have caused a great one to reach out to her, giving her some way to hide the fishing hamlet, and all those things within the dream, but thats just a speculative idea to fill the gap. Nonetheless she sits at the top, like a caretaker, or host. one detail on Maria I remember seeing is a bloody stomach, as if a child was cut out, correct me if I am wrong its hard to remember with all the blood. Anyhow. The two other conspirators I said were Lawrence and Ludwig, I mention these two by way of citing that Gherman knows Lawrence, and by deducing that Gherman is the first hunter who had students like maria, it could be said Ludwig would have been one too. But moreso they are in the dream in very dismal states, I think this is a punishment, an eternal curse for them to live out for defiling Maria's child. This is I would say support by the fact its not very clear whether ludwig is guarding the secret or simply in the way, and I lean to being in the way without much idea he is guarding it. Lawrence gets the luxury of being eternally on fire as a beast that he would probably have been very familiar with, which would be fitting for his punishment. Gherman, however is not being punished, and if you believe that Maria is leading this punishment, then I think that she could not bring herself to hurt Gherman, so she cut ties with him.
That brings us to Gherman's current state, I think that in his grief and regret for his actions he created the doll, an effigy to maria that he would tend to to keep himself company. In the hunters dream, this doll becomes a living being that Gherman seems to have intimate relations with, to fill the void that was left by his actions, and explains the dolls connection to maria whilst being her own thing. The Orphan itself I think gestated within Kos for a time, and Kos did not wash ashore until after much of the events of the Fishing hamlet took place. The church (whom of which involves our three suspects) may have found the hamlet, ransacked it and then captured Kos, forcing her to become beached, and then put the child inside while Kos was alive for a time, but this only sped up her death, perhaps even poisoning her.
One final thing attribute to Maria being the mother of whatever the Orphan of Kos was, is the adage uttered upon entering the hunters nightmare.
"Curse the Fiends and the children too, and their children forever true" | always believed maria said this, and I think her reasoning for this is if she cant have her child she never wants anyone involved to have happy children either. A somewhat malicious but contextually reasonable thing to want.
There are many things in this theory I think i may have missed, perhaps details suggesting otherwise, if there is anything I missed or anything I may have misread or such, please let me know.
I'm of the opinion that kos potentially let herself die just as she was about to give birth. She wished for her child to live over herself, and so she tried to subvert the rule. But this was ruined by byrgenwerth and the old hunters who killed it as part of their careless experiments.
Kos actually didn’t wash up there, it was specifically left on that shore to die
The orphan doesn’t create the nightmare, kos herself does, she isn’t dead, she is seperated from her mortal body, more like she returned to her home away from the mortals.
As far I my interpretation of the information we have goes I thought Kos washed up dead. That the hunters sin was more so the atrocities they committed against the people of the Hamlet who until then gave them reverence and protection.
This plus the utter tter disrespect of defiling the corpse of Kos and severing the ambilical cord, were the sins they would be punished for.
I have to wonder if they had simply left Kos alone if they would have been punished, if freeing the consciousness of the orphan is what allowed it to create the hunters nightmare and seek it's revenge.
I DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE THE PLACENTA WAS STABBED BY A HUGE HOOK! I ALWAYS JUST THOUGHT IT WAS ODDLY SHRIMP SHAPED! This is why I love this channel, I always learn interesting little facts about the games I love.
In a way we end our half-sibling as all hunters that come after the first are victims too in that they are trapped in the dream like slaves. Just like Simon lamented, it was not fair that others had to endure such torment as a result of their fathers' sins.
When he uses his lightning attack it stems from his mother almost as if he is trying to resurrect her.
This is where I proceeded to destroy Orphan with my newly aquired rakuyo
"I cannot ask for forgiveness.
I can only give you rest."
Why is it every time I’m happy about finally defeating a boss in the game, I later find out that said boss has a depressing backstory and now I feel terrible?
Think of it more like putting the monster out of its misery. And returning a lost child to his mother (cause we know he returns to the sea once you beat him).
The orphan created the nightmare? But the orphan is born just when we get there. Does that mean the hunters nightmare has just been created? Or what?
The nightmare was created as soon as the mother died, by the unborn orphan.
the fishing hamlet was hidden behind the tower and guarded because they had killed kos. it was a great shame for the hunters that realised their bloodlust had caused them to kill something wishing no harm
Man, i struggled with this boss for so long. Then something clicked, and i just understood staying close and side stepping everything now n then was the key. Like the world deadliest waltz
Man those scholars were built different killing that elder god
Me waking up at 3 am with my shirt stuck to my back because of sweat hearing low rider by war playing in the background
As one famous fromsoft content youtuber said: "The Orphan of Kos is a beast in pain and we are Hunters who must hunt beats. So we must do what we do best"
I wonder why you consider the orphan to be the source of the nightmare, rather than Kos herself. "The wrath of mother Kos" line always suggesyed to me that she was the creator of the nightmare. It also makes more sense that a Great One would have the power to create a nightmare realm. Seems illogical that a newborne would be capable of such a feat.
I didn't realize I was getting beaten to death a hanger
Since the entire premise of the Hunters' Nightmare is that everything in it is already dead, my running theory is that the real Lady Maria killed the real Orphan of Kos in the real Fishing Hamlet when she was there. Assuming it was as physically and emotionally difficult for her as it was for me, I *totally* get why she's in the state she's in when we find her...
I was today years old when I realized that that is a fishing hook, and not just a freak bit of biology that gave the Orphan a solid weapon to beat us with
I am so used to your Pokemon stuff that I got whiplash! But I’m so happy you cover one of my favorite games; Bloodborne!!!
Ah yes what a pleasant short to watch while eating pizza
The people of the fishing hamlet didn't kill her, they were worshiping her and then the healing church caught wind of a great one manifesting in the fishing hamlet so hunters were sent to capture and experiment on people in the village to check if they had eyes on the inside of their heads. they killed kos and the survivors of the village begged for the hunters to be cursed for what they did and so the hunters nightmare was created and sustained by the orphan of kos's hatred for its mothers killers.
This is the first time I’ve heard someone suggest that Kos was killed by the fishing hamlet citizens themselves, instead of her attackers being the students of Byrgenwerth
Notice that the nightmare only ends once you destroy the shadow hanging over kos's corpse. You're likely fighting a ghost the whole time.
I'm just glad they didn't give it a name just Orphan of Kos, it's mother died before it could get one
Never actually realized there was a fish hook i thought the placenta just looked like that
I was a helpless victim here for months being mercilessly ravaged by the Orphan of Kos.
the most chill londoner
Been wanting to get into animation so I can animate boss fights from Bloodborne. This one in particular I had a lot of thoughts about, like the Hunter having tears in their eyes as the orphan emerges, then it throws the hook at them and they just sidestep it. Realizing what they have to do, the Hunter pushes the sadness aside, transforms their weapon, and rushes into battle.
"I'm sure you can figure it out"
My dumbass: 😃 "no no I can not figure it out."
Could be referring to abortion rights imo
@@rachelc8368 thank you my good sir for informing me
Thanks for sending me down a bloodborne rabbit hole
God I haven’t played Bloodborne in a while I forgot how nice dashing looked and felt compared to rolling
"It isn't right, it's just necessary." Perfectly encapsulates what the player must do throughout bloodborne. From putting down the rabid Gascoigne to the killing of the wailing Mergo.
Playing that dlc I noticed it was called old hunter’s dream and the only old hunter we see is Gehrman who’s the first hunter and he made the doll who helps us based on maria his student who he loved and left on the clock tower and for some reason I thought that the orphan of cos is his child since it was his dream.
I want to just give the Orphan of Kos a hug and adopt the eldritch abomination
intresting, i never thought of it as a fishing hook
The fishermen NEVER killed her. They protected her. It was Byrgenwyrth scholars who did it
There's literally a giant fishing hook in the Orphan's placenta
I once went to my cousins house when I was young never had gotten past the first area in any souls game and I got orphan of kos to like half health with 20 blood vials on my second try still bragging about it to this day