People would be able to forget this story if FREAKING MARVEL WOULD STOP WRITING ABOUT IT! Every freaking book Pym is in has to mention this at some point. Stop blaming readers for your crap, Marvel.
Sighphi My thoughts exactly. If Marvel let it go fans could see Hank as a person that has changed. I mean, if we're going to get technical Reed Richards has smacked Sue and Peter Parker (while freaking out over believing he was a clone) punched Mary Jane, who was trying to calm him down,when at the time she was really pregnant. Nobody dwells on these because Marvel tries to forget that they happened.
+Sighphi Why would they htey stop writting about it? it was even said on the video, that's the most important thing that Hank Pym ever did!, it creates drama, and brings into the page real situations. That's just money waiting to be gained!!.
Let's be real the only two things we remember hank pym for was 1: Building ultron 2: Slapping the shit out of Janet Even his time as ant man was forgettable being overshadowed by scott lang and eric ogrady.
I like in the Secret Invasion one-shot titled Requiem, Hank was discussing with Jocasta about that moment where Hank struck Janet. He stated "It was wrong. It was the worst thing I've ever done, and coming from me, that's a lot; and when I say it was one time, let me be perfectly clear, it was and always will be one time too many." For me, that really showed a lot about Hank's character and how he's changed over the years. The one-shot even had a lot of throwbacks to how Hank and Janet originally met back in Tales to Astonish #44. I say, if anyone should be branded as a wife beater, it should be Reed
The Henryverse I feel that way too. I actually really like Hank Pym and wish that this storyline would be put to rest and people would stop automatically associating him with it. He did it but he's really not that kind of person at heart and I wish writers would stop focusing on it.
Charles Taylor Co Apparently there is more than one time it has happened...but I know there is a comic where invisible woman turns evil and when she confronts Reed he basically tells her to get a hold of herself and then slaps her in the face, which turns her good again.
Spidey hitting Mary Jane wasn't a defining moment for the character like it was for Ant-Man. Plus it makes sense he would go a little crazy like that if he believed he was just a clone.
Spider-Man's writer didn't intend to ruin his character. Ant-Man's writer thought it would make him more famous, like killing Jean Grey had made Chris Claremont famous. Marvel eventually kicked Ant-Man's writer out and told him not to come back.
Spiderman hit to mary jane accidentaly, because he was outrage and attacking a man that claim be the true parker, then mary jane try to break the fight and in the heat of the battle, peter hit to mary jane by be too near of them. But to see what he done, he flee with a lot shame, showing that he isn't a abusive husband, only hit her accidentaly. Hank pym on the other hand, he was already an abusive husband to janet and when he hit her, it appear be intentional, as hank only scold to janet after this and cruelly threat her to cooperate in his crazy plan without show any concern by the injure physical and emotional that he cause to his wife.
You're an idiot, +Jose Cuestas. Hank was not abusive to Janet. If you want to pick the abusive one in the relationship... Janet forced Hank to marry him while he was under the effects of schizophrenia and believed himself to be another guy and never looked for help for him.
I hate how this one moment that was a mistake and was beyond his responsibility , in story and in creation, has defined one of my favorite superheroes but everyone ignores the fact that reed Richards has slapped his wife several times for no other reason than he wanted her to shut up and was in perfect mental condition.
Zeo Dirk Mhm, I wonder if this could've influenced a generation of readers into developing wife-beating habits. For some of them, at least. That' be a shame.
Yeah, I've always felt Pym has gotten a raw deal from fandom. Hitting his wife was wrong, but hardly unforgivable. It's pretty sad that one panel "mis-drawn" several years ago has become the one defining thing that the character is remembered for. Marvel is known for it's "flawed" heroes. Pym is no different in that respect.
Marvel being known for its "flawed" heroes is why I like their comics and characters more. Their internal and philosophical and psychological conflicts feel even more realistic than Ultimate Marvel would ever make, as Marvel's OG Universe (Earthh-616) has always done that under the surface of a goofy exciting and extraordinary conceptual superhero universe. Meaning, if you take away the goofy, exciting and extraordinary superhero stuff, the Marvel Universe and its characters are just regular people with realistic struggles (mental, spiritual, financial, relationship-wise, you name it).
I love that, during the epilogue of the 'Secret Invasion' storyline, Hank was returned to Earth, having been replaced by a Skrull for many years. He, and, in a way, Marvel, were given the opportunity to say, "No! It was the Skrull who hit Janet! It wasn't me!" But, he didn't. He owned up to what he had done. And Marvel didn't try to weasel out of what made Hank such an interesting, if somewhat unlikable, character. Not like Quicksilver, who tried his best to play the Skrull "Get Out of Being an A-Hole Free" card!
I liked Hank and Janet in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes show, so I'm always sad to see Hank given bad treatment in other media. Even if Hank were a wife beater, it was only one point in time in his past, and there is always the possibility of redemption. Personally, I think it's our culture's lack of forgiveness for certain things that keeps Hank tied to his past, accidental or not. Awesome video!
Borvoc It is sucky that in the mind of a lot of readers he can never be forgiven. I mean, he was going through a ridiculously stressful time and has felt guilt and remorse over it substantially and I just wish that it could be put in the past. It can be a part of him because it happened and was significant but do we have to still view him as that? My thoughts are that, No, we should look at all aspects of his character and judge accordingly.
@@MrGreensweightHist Oh, cut the theatrics. This is fiction. I’m was saying (six years ago, apparently) that one bad story shouldn’t condemn a character for all eternity. Stuff in comics gets retconned all the time. The slap wasn’t even the intent of the writer but was added in by the artist. And seriously, Han, created Ultron, but apparently slapping his wife once while undergoing a a mental breakdown is somehow the unforgivable part? The people who think like this would have no problem if Janet had been the one to slap Hank, and yet they’d also say that men and women are equal. The misandry is palpable.
@@inc_simple7661 Right, and murder isn’t too real, I guess. Reboots and retcons happen all the time to undo murder all the time, but one artists decides one time to overemphasize a push that a husband gave to his wife while under extreme mental and emotional strain, and it can never be forgiven? Please. If Janet had been the one to slap Hank, we’d have all forgotten about it by the next issue, so let’s not pretend this is about “spousal abuse” in general. It’s about white-knighting to eternally condemn a character for a single panel that wasn’t intended to be an actual slap in the first place. This is why cancel culture is so damaging to society; it narrows in on the target intended for destruction, cuts off all escape, and gives no route for redemption while acting as judge, jury, and executioner. And yes, let’s not get into the Ultimate comics, as they’re entirely irrelevant to the conversation at hand unless you’re just looking for unrelated excuses to rail against Hank.
@@Borvocthe fact that you’re still justifying that statement is scary. Sounds like something a domestic abuser would say, that they deserve forgiveness.
Comic need to reflect real life. If anything this grounded them making the avengers and Hank in particular more believable. A good man with good intentions can go to far. He was frustrated and felt like a failure, and Janet got in his way. This should be a defining moment. It should be what drives Hank. A good man who goes to far and hurts somebody they love never forgives themselves.
@@TupocalypseShakurNext Avengers ( which predates the MCU ), Avengers: Age of Ultron, Avengers Assemble, What If, Doctor Strange MoM. So, yeah Hank is getting the short end of the stick. I didn't mind it ( sorta ) in Age of Ultron, but Ultron's next appearances created by Tony Stark have gotten *really* annoying and tiring.
I think it makes him more interesting. I've always seen him as having a sort of inferiority complex compared to other more successful superheroes. I remember reading his run as the leader of the "Mighty Avengers", one of two avengers teams at the time, and everything about his plans for them seemed to revolve around making himself feel big and important.
Personally I love it when some writers emphasize Hank's whimsical side -- there are two fantastic Marvel Adventures issues that show Hank as a down-on-his-luck inventor who winds up becoming a hero to ants when he invents his Ant Man helmet not to become a hero but as a humane pest-control device (wearers would just politely ask the ants to leave their homes). There's also another great one-shot that shows how Hank's science fiction writer aunt greatly influenced his love of whimsical inventions and how it was only after her death that Hank finally succumbed to outside pressures and began creating more "practical" inventions (like better carburetors). He later realized that every time he felt inferior and tried to "fit in" with a group (be it in the business world or the Avengers) he wound up sabotaging himself and creating menaces like Ultron -- but when he finally accepted himself for who he was, he was able to accomplish great things and help people. Personally I think that's the road the comics should have followed with Hank -- that whole "wife beater" angle has really only followed Hank because he was an unpopular superhero that readers disliked or ridiculed even before the infamous issue. If writers had allowed Hank to embrace his whimsical side and appreciate the silly but effective nature of his powers earlier, it's possible he would have become a more admirable figure (sort of like the popular "Legion of Substitute Heroes" who become effective only when they start using their weird abilities with more imagination).
I personally loved the A:EMH series Ant-Man; he was very interesting and made the whole series a little more serious with his emotional turmoil. Just me?
didn't watch yet but I can answer unambiguously unironicly and without hesitation the answer is no. one comic. one panel. completely out of context. ignore everything that happened and everything he did to make right. and writers still define him by that one moment. though I did read this one moment where he got sass on a bloke who wasn't a beater but might as well be: Osborne "Still smacking on girls?" Pym: "No. you still throwing them off bridges?"
You know what's hilarious, Pym did this once when he was seriously mentally messed up, but when Mr Fantastic does it to Sue Storm on a semi regular basis clear of mind it's A-ok.
I love this tragic story and I was thrilled to learn about its background. I think it is perfect that unfortunate results in the real world lead to unfortunate results in the comic world. Misery loves company. Hank Pym as a wife beater made the marvel universe so much richer of realism, drama and social commentary.
Okay, I have been reading comics since 1964 and I was manager and eventually owner of different comic book stores for 24 years. Hank Pym is a pariah for hitting Janet once during a mental breakdown. Reed has smacked Sue at least 3 times that I remember, albeit when she's been a little nuts, but also add to that all the neglect and mental abuse Sue has suffered and yet no one says anything about Reed being a horrible husband.
Honestly, I prefer that Hank hits Janet. I hate it when superheroes are all good and they do nothing bad. People are people. Some have bad personality traits but seen as a hero at times. Hank may well be one of the smartest, but every genius has his flaw. Tony with his alcoholism, Doom with his greed, banner with his accident, Reed with his love for science surpassing his love for humanity. It would be fitting that hank had a personality disorder. Explains his often change of name and suit. Everyone needs a flaw. The bigger the gift, the bigger the flaw.
Deadpool Wade Wilson I like what you are going for but, domestic abuse is not something you can throw completely out of nowhere. that requires a subtle change in tone to make it feel natural that it would happen
***** In the story Hank Pym was a complete mess. Before hitting her, there was a moment where she was getting dressed (& she said something about having to many dresses, I don't remember) and he snaps at her and destroys her dress. So his behavior wasn't out of nowhere.
wererook I think he should because Hank gets a bad rap for this one slap while I have heard that Reed has done it multiple times and apparently Spiderman did as well. Scott, if you see this, do Hank a favor and show instances where other characters actually do beat their wives in Marvel and don't have the wife beater title.
I think that reed richards also must be considered a wife beater by hit constantly to sue and never feel any regret. But spideman can be forgiven of be labeled like wife beater because he hit to mary jane completely accidentaly and he feel a lot shame after see what he done.
@@josecuestas7246 I don't recall Reed ever hitting Sue. I know that he did one time, but that was because she was evil as Malice and he only did it it snap her out of it. Other than that, I've never seen him abuse Sue or vice versa.
I say it happened, so own it and move on. Hank's never come close to hitting her since, and he gets reminded of it from time to time by other veteran Avengers, but such is real life. The rest of us don't get a RetCon, so I think it should stay in continuity, like Roy Harper's former heroin addiction. It's part of who they are. Just because we don't have to worry about Galactus, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have to deal with issues that plague our real lives.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel about the slap, and I'm a massive Hank Pym fan. This moment is an important part of his life, since it's what drives him to do better.
I love this situation, not because of the wive beating, but because of the possibility of dialog about the issue and the realness of it. It makes me very happy that Marvel has never tried to retcon it, kinda goes to show how these kind of things have no going back. And they had the opportunity, after secret invasion it was shown that Hank was a Skrull; perfect timing to say it wasn't him. The fact is... no matter the reason, he did hit his wife; and the backlash is appropriate, as it would be in real life. Also, he hit her in Ultimate AND in Marvel Zombies... also bit off her head.
Doesn't matter super hero's fight each other too. Case and point captain america a so called "good guy" beats the shit out of hank. Were is your outrage?
Because hitting somebody because you are angry is the wrong way to work your emotions. This is why we talk and have the ability to dialogue. Fighting should be reserved to cases in which it is necessary to defend ourselves or others. Do you believe she deserved such reaction?
Yes in the ultimate's she did deserve to get her teeth kick in. Also tons of superheros hit people simply because they were angry but there wasn't this huge stupid backlash about it from the public.So tell me witch is worst, hitting somebody once in the heat of the moment, or hunting down a person who doesn't even want to fight and beating the shit out of him. Because that's exactly what captain america did.
One thing very few of these videos reference is that the reason that Hank acted more violent and aggressive was because he had accidentally inhaled certain chemicals that led to his mental instability. This is kind of sad since many other superheroes have acted like total jerks under the influence of foreign substances (Superman has frequently become a terrible person under the influence of Red K, Batman became near homicidal under the influence of Venom, heck even Spider-Man (accidentally) hit his wife when he thought he might be a clone) yet because these characters are more popular than Hank Pym these heroes are still seen as paragons of justice while Pym continues to be seen primarily as a wife beater.
Honestly, I think they've been able to tell more stories with Hank as a bipolar man than they could have as just "that super smart guy who's not actually very good at his job," so over all, the Wasp-striking scene worked out for the better.
On the movie: I still wish the new film had Hank instead of Scott Lang as Ant-man, but making him old gives the opportunity to still have him be the guy who came up with the Avengers. I'm any event, I wasn't nearly as excited about Ant-man until I realized it would he a heist movie-like Ocean's 11 with superheroes...? :)
Also, inked by Dan Green, this is such a classic storyline. Although more common now, back in the day, crossing comics with such hard- hitting (*no pun intended*) real life issues, such as spousal abuse, was highly controversial, and very interesting. At this this point, it really doesn't matter what Shooter originally intended for that story. (*panel*) It has long been executed, and carved into history, as the shocking downfall of one of "The Avenger's" founding members."Sorry Hank. Take a hike."
I dimly remember when I was a kid that there was some kind of thing where the Yellowjacket identity was under some kind of mind corrupting influence... oh yeah, the Pym particles themselves. He recovered when he switched to only using them on inanimate gadgets. It looks like that was retconned yet again, although I saw some traces of the idea in the movie.
Ah, the roads not taken. Marvel later did a What If? story where Hank Pym/Yellowjacket is killed in action against the Elf Queen. A grief-stricken Wasp gets a costume change and metes out brutal vigilante justice as...Black Wasp. This would have happened in-canon if it had come out in the Nineties.
It is definitely the thing Pym is known for outside of creating Ultron. I hate that it's part of his legacy because it's literally overshadowed every attempt to redeem him. I thought how they portrayed Ant Man in Avengers EMH was a good start though, making him a pacifist, and making the clearer distinction of Yellowjacket being a more unhinged version of Pym. I figured it was easier to say he was out of his mind. Alas, despite that brilliant writing, Pym is still irredeemable. That's evident with the movie where they chose to make Scott Lang the second Ant Man the main one in the MCU and age Pym and Wasp. So they avoid that nasty piece of comic history. I do want to point some other things. 1. Mr. Fantastic abused Invisible Woman all the time and that past doesn't follow him. 2. DC's Black Canary beats the bejesus out of Green Arrow and it's played for comedy(Black Canary is considered one of the best fighters in the DC Universe, much better than Arrow at least). Just wanted to point those last two out.
Pym hits his wife once and Marvel's audience can not forgive the character for years. But in Marvel's "Thor: The Dark World" the fist thing Jane does when she meets Thor again is hitting him in the face and the audience laughs while not giving a single flying fuck. Oh, the hypocrisy.
Maybe because Thor is a god and it didn't do anything to him? I guarantee you if she actually hurt him people woud've been ticked off. Hank gave Janet a black eye, there's a big difference.
If people got mad that Jane hurt Thor, it would have nothing to do with the abuse. It would be because he's supposed to be a god and she's a human. Poor explanation.
It's an interesting dichotomy. Hulk and Thor basically beat each other all the time and Hulk gives Spidey love taps. There are out and out battles between team mates that have gotten pretty violent as well (Iron Man vs. Cap while protecting Winter Soldier). This whole thing revolves around a court martial for excessive violence against a female villain when male villains are beaten into insensibility all the time. In my opinion the female baddies should get beaten as badly as any of the male villains. And how many times have we seen the old "Fooled you! I didn't actually surrender!" plot? Hank Pym "accidentally" hits Janet as his dreams and life are shattered and he is more hated than the Red Skull and the other major villains, including Dr. Doom, combined!
Scott, I've been watching for a while now... no, really, I have been watching your show for months. haha And I really love how Comic Misconceptions brings more and shows more of what most people think about or miss out on in the comics. You show a much different perspective of what the comics are. And how your show creates a community for critical thinking. I learn a lot from what you do, Scott. Thanks so much! :D
Hey Scott! Well, well.. Hank Pym. What can we say about this guy..? So as a DC first comic fan and not a big spender I missed that whole pivotal age where this would've had a big emotional impact on me and discovered this whole dark chapter of Hank into my twenties. Now to be fair - it's not a big deal. *GASP* Yes, that's right. Settle down. It's a story. It's ink on paper. And it's been done before -- in an internet joke with the panel of Batman rattling Robin's teeth. And in context, Batman was going ... batty ... trying to pin his parents' murder on Superman and when Robin tried to talk some sense into him when Batman told him ... talk to the hand. That's just one example, but I think that Hank Pym's was a lot "worse" because there's "projection" coming into play. For sensitive kids who maybe had it rough at home with a dad that isn't quite living up to the billing and the mom who's just trying to make it work.. this probably hits a little too close to home (seriously, no pun intended. bad taste zone). Dad's upset, Mom gets involved, things get ugly. Its a sad thing to say but it's all too common in a lot of youngsters' lives. I think that Hank has become something of the unwitting effigy of the anger and distrust of these fans who witnessed a fear and revulsion existing in their actual lives permeate their comics. They watched Hank break a trust that means far more to the reader than "just another panel". Because you're now tying this story to actual traumatic life experience - I don't think Hank Pym can really live it down.
I like the fact that it is a defining moment in Hank's life. In comics, heroes can kill other characters, or even whole planets, and while it might take a toll on them, in the end they are still seen as heroes. Having Hank as a fallen hero, whose actions don't seem larger than life, but rather, more like a closer to home domestic dispute, makes the impact on readers that much greater. It distinguishes Hank from other heroes. And, much like people in the real world, his actions, even if he apologizes for them countless times, they will follow him forever; which is tragic, but also gives him more to fight for as a superhero - to be able to redeem himself in the eyes of others, but even more-so, to the point where he can forgive himself.
honestly hank was going through someone who have problem who was mentally unstable and to see he that he accidentally hit wasp would be asking a lot cause u must remember. that he was in a particular. zone that nobody could have get him out of even wasp and it just show how driven to do his plan but all and all this is my opinion that hank could be remember. as a diligent scientist who fail as much as he succeed in his own right
This was amazingly informative. I love your videos, they deserve more fame among the real comic book fans... most comic book reviewers finally give in and talk about movies and tv series all the time. You are one of the only ones who actually talk about comic books, the medium, the history, the people behind the stories. Props.
That's so cool! I never knew any of this! Wow! I love the depth that the comics went in to display a superhero with a psychological disorder, and how this perfect storm caused the incorrect portrayal of Hank Pym! I'm giddy with fascination!
Great video, Scott (as per usu), I always think about this moment with the original Ant-Man, it definitely was one of his defining moments. But I never interpreted it as him being a wife beater, or brute. I always imagined that he was just a troubled individual and lost control at that moment and now has an action against him that follows him around. It definitely added depth to the character and I think the re-imagining of him with Bipolar was a nice touch from MARVEL. I think the Hank Pym from the *Earth's Mightiest Heroes* series was the best representation of the character so far. As a scientist and genius who was never cut out to be a superhero. And tbf it's probably why they aged him in the new MCU, because too many ppl would be expecting that reference in the film and that's not what MARVELs about.
***** I'm glad that Marvel decided to write him as man struggling with bipolar. It makes him interesting to me. Like how Tony Stark struggled with alcoholism. I like when Marvel incorporates real life issues with their heroes, its my favorite thing about Marvel actually.
Exactly what I said in another comment. The struggle makes it all the more real. Like Hawkeye now having a family, what did Black Widow do that was so heinous? Peter Parker just trying g to keep the lights on. These were issues that kept u coming back.
This is interesting, that that frame was largly an accident. To this day, I remember reading/seeing that frame when it came out. Tho I had forgotten SAL, Elf queen , and court martial. Seeing a "good guy" striking his wife was damned odd back then.
I'm convinced that this is why marvel studios went with Scott Lang as Ant-Man. Cuz if the fandom caught wind that marvel was putting out a movie featuring a character that hit his wife, there would be riots. Angry feminists who just googled the character five minutes prior and skimmed his wiki page would actively boycott the movie and claim that marvel condones violence against women.
+Warrior Studios Well sorry to disappoint you but your conspiracy theory is wrong. "Marvel" went with Scott because he's Edgar Wright's favorite ant-man.
I really don't think so. Edgar Wright wanted a passing of the torch movie, so he needed Hank Pym to be old, so that he couldn't just be Ant-Man himself. Then the movie was crammed into the MCU, and now the MCU Avengers will be missing two of the Marvel characters who has the most history with the Avengers, namely Hank and Janet.
I've been reading Marvel for decades and contrary to Brevoort's statement has never been an issue until they brought it up again around "Avengers Disassembled". They've even made up and I'm pretty sure that Pym mentioned doing therapy in an issue that happend before "West Coast Avengers" (the Avengers brought him in about something with Spider-Woman I think). If that is the one moment in Pym's life everyone is talking about it is because the creators made it so in the last decade or so. I've never really appreciated them going there so excessively.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that the mental health aspect seems to get glossed over. It'd be great to see that element properly addressed at some point.
I really hated seeing women getting smack in the face or beat up because it is really difficult on how to treat the women with good intention. I really think that Hank Pym just jealous on Janet Van Dyne doing most of the good things while Hank Pym is doing science laboratory work than doing good things to others. Notification to everyone: Hank Pym is NEVER ever a Wife-beater. Hank has a mental breakdown meaning on jealous on NOT doing good things to others.
I'm prolly gonna get a TLDR for this, but to that possible troll, I Can Read You Just Fine. If I defend Hank, it is not to defend this moment. It was the lowest moment for a hero with a lot of low moments, and hell rightfully followed after. I wish to God Almighty the original intent had been followed, and Hank immediately abandoned his plan, seeking the divorce himself for doing the one thing he never wanted to. So my 'defense' is to point to the once-only nature of this, but doubly to the next most important fact : Jan kicked him out the door immediately following this. She didn't put up with it for years on end. One hit, he was done. As it should be. As depicted, it was a savagely bad moment. If I bring up Jan's end of this, it is not to attack her or say in some Insane Troll Logic that she had it coming or some such nonsense. But she did play a role in how this turned out. This was the man's fourth such major breakdown. She married him during and after a bout of disassociative identity disorder. They met when he was a grieving widower who went on a rampage behind the Iron Curtain--this AFTER he and his wife thought it was safe to honeymoon in her not-free-at-all homeland, which managed to kill her Dad back in the US to boot. His response to this was to shrink himself, almost get eaten/torn apart in a Giger landscape, and then go back to it in the process risking his life against criminals, who could kill you really dead, even in the Silver Age. She was morning her father's murder at the hands of a vaguely Lovecraftian entity, and was, to hear the narrative, a very young naive sheltered girl. This was an unhealthy brew to start. Again, Avengers 211-213 was his fourth go-round with breaking down. Iron Curtain, Yellowjacket, Avengers 161 (he broke down, gained amnesia to just after Avengers # 1, and attacked his team as Ant-Man), this most infamous one, plus guilt from having created Ultron, who has repeatedly messed with his mind as well. Reed and Sue had some unhealthy elements, but this was all the bad in their Silver Age without any of the good. Hank and Jan suffered from the slow build of their relationship from the time of naive assumptions to a much more knowledgeable and cynical time. To finish, I say, if post-Battleworld has a Hank and Jan in this new history, erase this moment hard, along with Gwen/Norman. Have them restart from a healthier place.
Rob Morris I just wanted to add to what I originally said. Despite what Scott was told in that statement from Marvel, IMO, not all later Marvel writers tried to rehabilitate Hank. I remember particularly before, during, and after 'Disassembled', the incident in reference was vaguely Flanderized into many years of physical abuse, maybe because the writers at that time only seemed to know it in reference. In fact, IIRC, it was almost 'Ultimized' in that way. That is an insult to Hank, who acted that loathsome on that occasion alone, and to Jan, who did not put up with it at all. Again, she shut him down and kicked him out. BTW, this is the same era that gave us Carol Danvers' infamous pregnancy.
Rob Morris Just to clear that part up, it wasn't that Tom Brevoort said that EVERY writer since has been trying to redeem Hank for that moment. Rather, he said that many have tried, but nothing stuck. Probably because other writers try to capitalize on it. There's a kind of struggle between some of the writers where some just want to finally get people to look past it, where others want to spotlight it and frame it as who Hank truly is. So you are right that not all later writers tried to rehabilitate Hank, but that was never really stated as being the case. Hope that clears that up.
Sorry, Scott. My bad. I get a little bit visceral about how Hank gets treated, even past what he deserves. I'll post a later comment about an effort Marvel made towards his rehab - and how it was undone.
Rob Morris Alright. This is based on my recall, which is great for some things, less so for others. Steve Engelhart's entire run of West Coast Avengers, from # 1 to 41 plus a good couple of annuals, had redeeming Hank Pym as a central point. Many storylines had this in there, including making it clear to Jan he had changed, even if they never got together again, because he owed it to her. Not only her suspicion and concern was brought up. When the team was betrayed to paranoid government authorities, some thought Hank was to blame, when in fact it was Quicksilver in one of his asshat phases. The final storyline had Hank, the WCA and Jan hunting down clues that said Maria Troyvana Pym, Hank's first wife, was alive and held captive by some of Hank's old Cold War enemies. In short, they found her, but hooked up to a machine that caused her brain to be made hideously overlarge for some kind of hybrid computer. Hank and Jan part company, with him dedicated to saving Maria and she wishing him well. After Engelhart left WCA, his Scarlet Witch/Vision stories were rapidly negated, perhaps even brutally so. In a Solo Avengers/Avengers Spotlight story, the 'Maria' Pym had found turned out to be another AIM effort to created a MODOK like creature called MODAM, and was never her. After that, Hank and Jan began moving around each other again, with both much stronger than their Silver Age messed-uppery, and the talk began of them getting back together. That fell apart, and I don't know why. By this, I mean I don't know where the objections came from, fans or writers, but some felt strongly that this would be Jan happily returning to her abuser. A kind of re-dorking of Hank followed, with one example being Hawkeye calling him out over it. I strongly feel this period led to the Ultimate and Zombie versions being such complete assholes, and maybe laid the ground for Hank not being in Avengers or the lead in the new film. Trivia : Who was the first actor to play Ant-Man live action? Garrett Morris, on a classic SNL skit in an episode hosted by Christopher Reeve.
This is a very unfortunate situation and I'm going to be honest, I don't like it, ESPECIALLY because it was a mistake. It simply should not have been so I don't accept or ever will accept the idea of him intentionally hitting her.
I remember when u looked like that. A total College bro who should be in a frat or something. Now u kinda look like ur in ur late 20s about to become more classy and well dressed. With tie-ins I'm kinda right in my description.
It's great to see a character like Hank Pym a flawed hero. It makes him more realistic. They just have to find a way to redeem him. The Ant Man movie was awesome! The movie was funny and action packed and the way he used his powers was done very well.
So Hank has bipolar disorder, Daredevil has depression and Moon Knight has multiple personality disorder, interesting. This is why I like Marvel a lot more than DC, they delve in to the heroes and give them flaws, has there ever been a comic that delved into Batman having a mental illness? I know on Game Theory they suggested that Batman has a hero complex or something like that and that makes it to where he purposesly places his badguys in Arkam because he knows they will escape and then he gets to be the hero but do they ever play on this in mainstream comics or is Batman just perfectly healthy despite how paranoid he is? The only DC characters I can think of that have a mental illness are the members of Watchmen and that was kind of the point.
Wan Farah I guess not. I am not an advid comic reader, I only know most of these things from either videos or the wiki but I was well aware Tony's drinking problems. I can't recall some character flaws or traits in DC heroes though.
I think it's that Marvel is much more blatant and straightforward about their heroes having these kinds of flaws, where DC tries to let the reader put all the pieces together on their own. At least that's been my experience.
The plan of releasing that robot that with a weakness only he knew about and then defeating it to make it look like he saved everybody is exactly the same plan that Syndrome had in the incredibles.
The incredible wolverine But that's because our society is dumb(No, not feminism). And he was a joke of a man. And then he made Ultron. And then he was "Oh shit that's the guy who made the guy who killed my family!"/
***** actually studies have shown that if a man is being attacked by a woman in public, people tend to either cheer the woman on, smile, laugh or even join in. the justification you hear later is " he probably deserved it".
Thing is this wasn’t the first time he struck her either. To keep Wasp from following him into danger in Kree Skrull War, he punched her in the head and knocked her out. Quite blatantly too.
So people really got more angry at Pym for slapping his wife than for building a giant death robot because people disagreed with him, and trying to lie to his friends so they could trust him again? After all of that, I'd be surprised if he *didn't* slap some women around, he obviously seemed to not be in his right mind. Plus, it's not like they had a history of spousal abuse. If you love someone and spend a large chunk of your life with them and consider them your better half, I'd be surprised if you didn't want to slap them at least once in your life. Like I said, he was obviously having a really bad week, and if your career involves punching most of the people you meet, I'm sure violence is just something that comes natural when you forget to hold back. I have to wonder if the whole issue stems from the fact that it was a man hitting a woman. Which, to me, seems like a figurative slap in the face to the Wasp's whole character. She's supposed to be a strong, capable, independent person, just like any of the other Avengers. If everyone wants Batman and Superman to fight all the time, then they have to allow for situations where married people can also trade blows, even if a woman gets hit every so often. Even in real life, women are going to get abused, I'd say it's better to realize that it happens and prepare for it rather than pretending it doesn't exist and tricking people into thinking it can never happen to them.
So, mainly, it's on the artist for their exact depiction. Which wasn't truly what the writer wanted from that moment. Well that's a shame, Idk how different it'd be nowadays if the writer's work got properly adapted... but who knows.
It doesn't matter if the story was created on accident, we shouldn't ever forget about it. Sure, it haunts Ant-Man until now, but it was also one of the most important moments for Wasp and women in comics in general, because she didn't just overlook it, she asked for a divorce. Domestic violence used to be a huge taboo, and a strong, admirable woman like Janet being so open about it and taking action herself was a huge deal at the time, much more than it would be today. In fact, I don't like all the stories where Marvel tries to play the moment down or explain it away. Good people do bad things and they have consequences that last forever. They don't need mental illnesses for that. I hate that explanation that was fabricated afterwards. All it does is once more cement in comic books that mentally ill people are evil and can't be heroes, even if they try. I would be fine with Hank having BPD if it was revealed in a story that focused on it and his struggles of dealing with it, but not as a cheap explanation issued afterwards for why we all should feel sorry for the wife beater instead of the wife, who was the actual victim yet showed strength of character despite of it, especially given the time it was published in.
... the explation was not fabricated afterwards you idiot. Hank was under the effects of Pym particles stress many times, and in one of those times, he actually got schizophrenia and Wasp forced him to marry her. Love how you conveniently miss all of that in your post.
If I was Hank Pym I'd feel pretty miserable about myself too. Ultron uses his brain patterns and ends up being one of the Avenger's deadliest enemies. Vision (ironically built by Ultron), who uses Wonder Mans brain patterns turns out to be one of their greatest heroes. But in a way its also poetic justice. An attempt at doing something good turns out bad. But that bad thing then creates something good. Another thing Pym and Ultron share. Whenever they build robots it turns out the opposite to how they want it. Jocasta would be another example. He sort of is an accidental anti-hero. And bi-polar disorder pretty much hits the nail on the head with him.
If Tony Stark can have a drinking problem, then why can't Pym have Bipolar or an inability to check his emotions? That's good writing and brings these heroes down to a relatable level. U end up asking urself how/why can these ppl be heroes? And then we read on to see how they identify with their problems and learn to rise above it for the better. That's what classes them as heroes. "Never give up, never surrender. Not even in the face of armageddon."
I'm reading Comics for about thirty years or so. I don't remember that incident being that much of an issue before Marvel brought it up again just before "Avengers Disassembled" when Wasp made out with Hawkeye. That however always seemed a bit out of character considering what happened before especially in early issues of "West Coast Avengers". Hawkeye's attitude towards Giant-Man after he found out about him and Wasp isn't consistend with the one he had towards him in "WCA" which was way positive. Later on in that book Wasp and Hank started to slowly reconcile which was done pretty fine and basically continued on to that affair with Hawkeye. I always liked the various incarnations of Pym and never liked, that he was reduced to that one Moment him and Wasp had overcome decades before.
I can understand that hank pym was labeled like wife beater by hit violently to janet once. But why reed richards wasn't labeled like a wife beater? Considering that in marvel comic, reed hit to sue several times and he never feel any regret like hank pym, that after the ordeal of construct a robot to save his membership of avengers, he finally can see the damage that he cause and even he try to apologize with janet. But reed never apologize to sue after all the hits that he did or at least feel remourse by abuse of his wife.
Piece of weird Hank/Jan trivia. On an episode of MASH, company clerk Radar O'Reilly is on his cot with a comic book he fell asleep reading. The comic was one of the show's many anachronisms, a 1960's issue of Avengers, this during a war which lasted from 1050 to 1953. It was # 60, featuring Wasp and Yellowjacket's wedding, a story by Roy Thomas called 'Til Death Do Us Part'. Thomas later tried to reunite the pair during his early 1990's run on Avengers West Coast (as the book was later retitled).
Very late comment, but my view is that it doesn't REALLY make a lot of difference whether Hank is a habitual wife-beater when he's already, uh, a guy who has little enough care for other people to accidentally hit his wife while trying to defend his choice to build a robot to fight his teammates, to make them like him again, because they all think he used excessive force in a different incident. He's already being dangerous and manipulative and violent by the time the question of "did he mean to hit her" comes up.
Accident or not the reason I've always loved marvel comics is because they show their heroes having real life emotions. They're tortured individuals that do life threatening things and they get upset. Good Video!!
And Hank basically died after that. Now he's merged with his psychotic robot son and his wife seems to have moved on. All I know is that they'll never get back together. And if they did they'd have to deal with a maniacal 3rd wheel.
Guys... He was in the midst of building a robot to attack his friends so he could fake saving them and get away with using excessive force (with another woman) and then he accidentally hit his wife and gave her a black eye... Give him a break.
That's actually really cool how that series of events and maybe accidents turned out this way. It may not be a good thing exactly, but it certainly turned out well for the story.
i do hate that something that was in storyline an accident and was misdrawn is all that Hank Pym was known for, peter parker slapped mary jane in the 90s, Reed Richards has purposefully slapped sue storm several times yet these characters are free of blame and hank pym is known as a "wife beater"
Hank having anger issues, envy issues plus him being bipolar are a good flaw for him. Him hitting Janet was just the result of those flaws. Hank let his mental illness and insecurities control him instead of fighting against it. I think it is a good lesson for men to not let your mental problems and insecurity control you like it did Hank.
I believe that it is a huge part of hank's character. Because it shows why he is currently trying to not be a hero, but be a good scientist. This is because he regret beating his wife, and wanted to help others in order to redeem himself. This is also why he is one of my favorite marvel and all of comics characters of all time, because he did something he regretted, but is trying to overcome that mistake.
Like Ultimate, the Marvel Zombies Hank kind of did the same thing to Wasp, except, since they were zombies he bit her head off. She survived and got a robot body and helped some zombies get rehabilitated, but she still had gotten her head bitten off by her, albeit zombie hunger crazed, husband.
I think the fact that Hank Pym is a domestic abuser is a great wrinkle to the “super hero” story. The fact that they let a “hero” be shown to be so petty and insecure , I think is important as it shows young readers that an abuser will often seem like a perfectly good person, someone they are close to, but that just because that person isn’t a villain, it doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of horrible things. Just with IronMan’s alcoholism, I was kind of hoping they would allow this to be shown in the films. Stories like these raises the Avenger’s above simply crowd pleasing children’s stories. They had an opportunity to make alcoholism a real and painful struggle for Tony Stark in the movies - and seeing him overcome that struggle and addiction being treated as a disease , could have been huge . The same with Hank Pym. It is no wonder they went with Scott Lang as their Ant Man instead of Hank - but had they gone with Hank , treated him like a normal hero, and then this dark side was revealed - if they handled it like the Ultimate comics, I think it would have been unexpected and powerful .
People would be able to forget this story if FREAKING MARVEL WOULD STOP WRITING ABOUT IT!
Every freaking book Pym is in has to mention this at some point.
Stop blaming readers for your crap, Marvel.
Sighphi My thoughts exactly. If Marvel let it go fans could see Hank as a person that has changed. I mean, if we're going to get technical Reed Richards has smacked Sue and Peter Parker (while freaking out over believing he was a clone) punched Mary Jane, who was trying to calm him down,when at the time she was really pregnant. Nobody dwells on these because Marvel tries to forget that they happened.
+Sighphi Why would they htey stop writting about it? it was even said on the video, that's the most important thing that Hank Pym ever did!, it creates drama, and brings into the page real situations. That's just money waiting to be gained!!.
+twoegg shuffle ROBOTCEPTION
Let's be real the only two things we remember hank pym for was
1: Building ultron
2: Slapping the shit out of Janet
Even his time as ant man was forgettable being overshadowed by scott lang and eric ogrady.
Yes, if something like this happens, why don't writers ignore it? Just never speak of it again.
I like in the Secret Invasion one-shot titled Requiem, Hank was discussing with Jocasta about that moment where Hank struck Janet. He stated "It was wrong. It was the worst thing I've ever done, and coming from me, that's a lot; and when I say it was one time, let me be perfectly clear, it was and always will be one time too many." For me, that really showed a lot about Hank's character and how he's changed over the years. The one-shot even had a lot of throwbacks to how Hank and Janet originally met back in Tales to Astonish #44. I say, if anyone should be branded as a wife beater, it should be Reed
The Henryverse I feel that way too. I actually really like Hank Pym and wish that this storyline would be put to rest and people would stop automatically associating him with it. He did it but he's really not that kind of person at heart and I wish writers would stop focusing on it.
Wait, why is Reed a wife beater??? I haven't seen a comic where that happened.
The Henryverse That one shot is really helpful to know about Hank.
I am lucky enough to own it.
Charles Taylor Co Reed has hit Sue on more than one occasion and he did it on purpose.
Charles Taylor Co Apparently there is more than one time it has happened...but I know there is a comic where invisible woman turns evil and when she confronts Reed he basically tells her to get a hold of herself and then slaps her in the face, which turns her good again.
Spider-Man hit Mary Jane while she was expecting and no one cares. Hank hit Jan by accident and it ruined the character.
Spidey hitting Mary Jane wasn't a defining moment for the character like it was for Ant-Man. Plus it makes sense he would go a little crazy like that if he believed he was just a clone.
Spider-Man's writer didn't intend to ruin his character. Ant-Man's writer thought it would make him more famous, like killing Jean Grey had made Chris Claremont famous. Marvel eventually kicked Ant-Man's writer out and told him not to come back.
Just like it makes sense that someone who's currently crazy as a result of being drugged shouldn't be condemned for all eternity.
Spiderman hit to mary jane accidentaly, because he was outrage and attacking a man that claim be the true parker, then mary jane try to break the fight and in the heat of the battle, peter hit to mary jane by be too near of them. But to see what he done, he flee with a lot shame, showing that he isn't a abusive husband, only hit her accidentaly. Hank pym on the other hand, he was already an abusive husband to janet and when he hit her, it appear be intentional, as hank only scold to janet after this and cruelly threat her to cooperate in his crazy plan without show any concern by the injure physical and emotional that he cause to his wife.
You're an idiot, +Jose Cuestas. Hank was not abusive to Janet. If you want to pick the abusive one in the relationship... Janet forced Hank to marry him while he was under the effects of schizophrenia and believed himself to be another guy and never looked for help for him.
I hate how this one moment that was a mistake and was beyond his responsibility , in story and in creation, has defined one of my favorite superheroes but everyone ignores the fact that reed Richards has slapped his wife several times for no other reason than he wanted her to shut up and was in perfect mental condition.
Zeo Dirk Mhm, I wonder if this could've influenced a generation of readers into developing wife-beating habits. For some of them, at least.
That' be a shame.
Zeo Dirk some people are really ignorant.
Alaska1925 I highly doubt anyone picked up wife beating from comic books at least not completely.
Zeo Dirk Well, yeah. I meant partially and unconsciously.
Spider-Man punched Mary Jane in Clone Saga
Yeah, I've always felt Pym has gotten a raw deal from fandom. Hitting his wife was wrong, but hardly unforgivable. It's pretty sad that one panel "mis-drawn" several years ago has become the one defining thing that the character is remembered for. Marvel is known for it's "flawed" heroes. Pym is no different in that respect.
Marvel being known for its "flawed" heroes is why I like their comics and characters more. Their internal and philosophical and psychological conflicts feel even more realistic than Ultimate Marvel would ever make, as Marvel's OG Universe (Earthh-616) has always done that under the surface of a goofy exciting and extraordinary conceptual superhero universe. Meaning, if you take away the goofy, exciting and extraordinary superhero stuff, the Marvel Universe and its characters are just regular people with realistic struggles (mental, spiritual, financial, relationship-wise, you name it).
I love that, during the epilogue of the 'Secret Invasion' storyline, Hank was returned to Earth, having been replaced by a Skrull for many years. He, and, in a way, Marvel, were given the opportunity to say, "No! It was the Skrull who hit Janet! It wasn't me!" But, he didn't. He owned up to what he had done. And Marvel didn't try to weasel out of what made Hank such an interesting, if somewhat unlikable, character. Not like Quicksilver, who tried his best to play the Skrull "Get Out of Being an A-Hole Free" card!
I liked Hank and Janet in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes show, so I'm always sad to see Hank given bad treatment in other media. Even if Hank were a wife beater, it was only one point in time in his past, and there is always the possibility of redemption. Personally, I think it's our culture's lack of forgiveness for certain things that keeps Hank tied to his past, accidental or not. Awesome video!
Borvoc It is sucky that in the mind of a lot of readers he can never be forgiven. I mean, he was going through a ridiculously stressful time and has felt guilt and remorse over it substantially and I just wish that it could be put in the past. It can be a part of him because it happened and was significant but do we have to still view him as that? My thoughts are that, No, we should look at all aspects of his character and judge accordingly.
And this is why abuse is normalized in society
@@MrGreensweightHist Oh, cut the theatrics. This is fiction. I’m was saying (six years ago, apparently) that one bad story shouldn’t condemn a character for all eternity. Stuff in comics gets retconned all the time. The slap wasn’t even the intent of the writer but was added in by the artist.
And seriously, Han, created Ultron, but apparently slapping his wife once while undergoing a a mental breakdown is somehow the unforgivable part? The people who think like this would have no problem if Janet had been the one to slap Hank, and yet they’d also say that men and women are equal. The misandry is palpable.
@@inc_simple7661 Right, and murder isn’t too real, I guess. Reboots and retcons happen all the time to undo murder all the time, but one artists decides one time to overemphasize a push that a husband gave to his wife while under extreme mental and emotional strain, and it can never be forgiven? Please. If Janet had been the one to slap Hank, we’d have all forgotten about it by the next issue, so let’s not pretend this is about “spousal abuse” in general. It’s about white-knighting to eternally condemn a character for a single panel that wasn’t intended to be an actual slap in the first place.
This is why cancel culture is so damaging to society; it narrows in on the target intended for destruction, cuts off all escape, and gives no route for redemption while acting as judge, jury, and executioner. And yes, let’s not get into the Ultimate comics, as they’re entirely irrelevant to the conversation at hand unless you’re just looking for unrelated excuses to rail against Hank.
@@Borvocthe fact that you’re still justifying that statement is scary. Sounds like something a domestic abuser would say, that they deserve forgiveness.
Comic need to reflect real life. If anything this grounded them making the avengers and Hank in particular more believable. A good man with good intentions can go to far. He was frustrated and felt like a failure, and Janet got in his way. This should be a defining moment. It should be what drives Hank. A good man who goes to far and hurts somebody they love never forgives themselves.
Just a question did him hitting her drive him to sacrifice himself for the team later on or did he just feel guilty?
***** so he found a little redemption then?
***** cool thanks, also aren't all comics needlessly complicated?
***** fair enough
***** I think he earned his redemption when he brought Janet back to life.
I just want Hank Pym to be happy.
Don’t we all?
Not me
I loved that moment where Hank from the Ant-Man trailer interrupted you. Haha
'That was the most interesting thing to ever happen to Hank'
Ultron: 'Am I joke to you?'
I mean, considering how everyone forgets that and almost every adaptation replaces him with the more popular Tony Stark
@@TupocalypseShakurNext Avengers ( which predates the MCU ), Avengers: Age of Ultron, Avengers Assemble, What If, Doctor Strange MoM. So, yeah Hank is getting the short end of the stick. I didn't mind it ( sorta ) in Age of Ultron, but Ultron's next appearances created by Tony Stark have gotten *really* annoying and tiring.
I think it makes him more interesting. I've always seen him as having a sort of inferiority complex compared to other more successful superheroes. I remember reading his run as the leader of the "Mighty Avengers", one of two avengers teams at the time, and everything about his plans for them seemed to revolve around making himself feel big and important.
Personally I love it when some writers emphasize Hank's whimsical side -- there are two fantastic Marvel Adventures issues that show Hank as a down-on-his-luck inventor who winds up becoming a hero to ants when he invents his Ant Man helmet not to become a hero but as a humane pest-control device (wearers would just politely ask the ants to leave their homes).
There's also another great one-shot that shows how Hank's science fiction writer aunt greatly influenced his love of whimsical inventions and how it was only after her death that Hank finally succumbed to outside pressures and began creating more "practical" inventions (like better carburetors). He later realized that every time he felt inferior and tried to "fit in" with a group (be it in the business world or the Avengers) he wound up sabotaging himself and creating menaces like Ultron -- but when he finally accepted himself for who he was, he was able to accomplish great things and help people.
Personally I think that's the road the comics should have followed with Hank -- that whole "wife beater" angle has really only followed Hank because he was an unpopular superhero that readers disliked or ridiculed even before the infamous issue. If writers had allowed Hank to embrace his whimsical side and appreciate the silly but effective nature of his powers earlier, it's possible he would have become a more admirable figure (sort of like the popular "Legion of Substitute Heroes" who become effective only when they start using their weird abilities with more imagination).
I personally loved the A:EMH series Ant-Man; he was very interesting and made the whole series a little more serious with his emotional turmoil. Just me?
didn't watch yet but I can answer unambiguously unironicly and without hesitation the answer is no. one comic. one panel. completely out of context. ignore everything that happened and everything he did to make right. and writers still define him by that one moment. though I did read this one moment where he got sass on a bloke who wasn't a beater but might as well be:
Osborne "Still smacking on girls?"
Pym: "No. you still throwing them off bridges?"
You know what's hilarious, Pym did this once when he was seriously mentally messed up, but when Mr Fantastic does it to Sue Storm on a semi regular basis clear of mind it's A-ok.
Reed did it when Sue was mind controlled. This is also a misconception
Youre not kidding when you talk of how a simple moment can follow a character around forever. Woah.
I love this tragic story and I was thrilled to learn about its background. I think it is perfect that unfortunate results in the real world lead to unfortunate results in the comic world. Misery loves company. Hank Pym as a wife beater made the marvel universe so much richer of realism, drama and social commentary.
Okay, I have been reading comics since 1964 and I was manager and eventually owner of different comic book stores for 24 years. Hank Pym is a pariah for hitting Janet once during a mental breakdown. Reed has smacked Sue at least 3 times that I remember, albeit when she's been a little nuts, but also add to that all the neglect and mental abuse Sue has suffered and yet no one says anything about Reed being a horrible husband.
Honestly, I prefer that Hank hits Janet. I hate it when superheroes are all good and they do nothing bad. People are people. Some have bad personality traits but seen as a hero at times. Hank may well be one of the smartest, but every genius has his flaw. Tony with his alcoholism, Doom with his greed, banner with his accident, Reed with his love for science surpassing his love for humanity. It would be fitting that hank had a personality disorder. Explains his often change of name and suit. Everyone needs a flaw. The bigger the gift, the bigger the flaw.
Wise words from deadpool
Deadpool Wade Wilson So you'd love Hank. Guy's extremely far from perfect.
Deadpool Wade Wilson I like what you are going for but, domestic abuse is not something you can throw completely out of nowhere. that requires a subtle change in tone to make it feel natural that it would happen
***** It's not out of nowhere if you notice.
***** In the story Hank Pym was a complete mess. Before hitting her, there was a moment where she was getting dressed (& she said something about having to many dresses, I don't remember) and he snaps at her and destroys her dress. So his behavior wasn't out of nowhere.
Awesome!
And the hank pym joke at the beggining, it was perfect!
Vinicius Miranda Hahaha, thanks!
I heard of Reed Richards and Peter Parker slapping their wives around... could you do a follow up video to this?
wererook I think he should because Hank gets a bad rap for this one slap while I have heard that Reed has done it multiple times and apparently Spiderman did as well. Scott, if you see this, do Hank a favor and show instances where other characters actually do beat their wives in Marvel and don't have the wife beater title.
MysteriousTomJenkins Spidey's sanity was also a bit shaky at the time.
I think that reed richards also must be considered a wife beater by hit constantly to sue and never feel any regret. But spideman can be forgiven of be labeled like wife beater because he hit to mary jane completely accidentaly and he feel a lot shame after see what he done.
@@josecuestas7246 I don't recall Reed ever hitting Sue. I know that he did one time, but that was because she was evil as Malice and he only did it it snap her out of it. Other than that, I've never seen him abuse Sue or vice versa.
@@lucaswinsor4469 excuses
I say it happened, so own it and move on. Hank's never come close to hitting her since, and he gets reminded of it from time to time by other veteran Avengers, but such is real life. The rest of us don't get a RetCon, so I think it should stay in continuity, like Roy Harper's former heroin addiction. It's part of who they are. Just because we don't have to worry about Galactus, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have to deal with issues that plague our real lives.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel about the slap, and I'm a massive Hank Pym fan. This moment is an important part of his life, since it's what drives him to do better.
That story made Hank Pym one of my favorite comic book heroes, because he seems to bring a human element to a group of people who are so god like
Daniel Lewis Yeah, it adds more depth to the character.
I love this situation, not because of the wive beating, but because of the possibility of dialog about the issue and the realness of it. It makes me very happy that Marvel has never tried to retcon it, kinda goes to show how these kind of things have no going back. And they had the opportunity, after secret invasion it was shown that Hank was a Skrull; perfect timing to say it wasn't him. The fact is... no matter the reason, he did hit his wife; and the backlash is appropriate, as it would be in real life. Also, he hit her in Ultimate AND in Marvel Zombies... also bit off her head.
Ana Lucrecia Lepiz That's the thing the backlash was not appropriate. Wasp is a superhero that get hit all the time.
By bad guys.
Doesn't matter super hero's fight each other too. Case and point captain america a so called "good guy" beats the shit out of hank. Were is your outrage?
Because hitting somebody because you are angry is the wrong way to work your emotions. This is why we talk and have the ability to dialogue. Fighting should be reserved to cases in which it is necessary to defend ourselves or others. Do you believe she deserved such reaction?
Yes in the ultimate's she did deserve to get her teeth kick in. Also tons of superheros hit people simply because they were angry but there wasn't this huge stupid backlash about it from the public.So tell me witch is worst, hitting somebody once in the heat of the moment, or hunting down a person who doesn't even want to fight and beating the shit out of him. Because that's exactly what captain america did.
One thing very few of these videos reference is that the reason that Hank acted more violent and aggressive was because he had accidentally inhaled certain chemicals that led to his mental instability.
This is kind of sad since many other superheroes have acted like total jerks under the influence of foreign substances (Superman has frequently become a terrible person under the influence of Red K, Batman became near homicidal under the influence of Venom, heck even Spider-Man (accidentally) hit his wife when he thought he might be a clone) yet because these characters are more popular than Hank Pym these heroes are still seen as paragons of justice while Pym continues to be seen primarily as a wife beater.
Honestly, I think they've been able to tell more stories with Hank as a bipolar man than they could have as just "that super smart guy who's not actually very good at his job," so over all, the Wasp-striking scene worked out for the better.
On the movie: I still wish the new film had Hank instead of Scott Lang as Ant-man, but making him old gives the opportunity to still have him be the guy who came up with the Avengers. I'm any event, I wasn't nearly as excited about Ant-man until I realized it would he a heist movie-like Ocean's 11 with superheroes...? :)
JP Kloess If you like heist stories with super-people, I recommend the comic Supercrooks. It's one of my favorites!
Also, inked by Dan Green, this is such a classic storyline. Although more common now, back in the day, crossing comics with such hard- hitting (*no pun intended*) real life issues, such as spousal abuse, was highly controversial, and very interesting. At this this point, it really doesn't matter what Shooter originally intended for that story. (*panel*) It has long been executed, and carved into history, as the shocking downfall of one of "The Avenger's" founding members."Sorry Hank. Take a hike."
I dimly remember when I was a kid that there was some kind of thing where the Yellowjacket identity was under some kind of mind corrupting influence... oh yeah, the Pym particles themselves. He recovered when he switched to only using them on inanimate gadgets.
It looks like that was retconned yet again, although I saw some traces of the idea in the movie.
SPOILER ALERT!
There's ants in Ant-Man.
+Josh Borchardt GASP!
NOOOOOOOOO!
Red ants or black ants?
HMMM?
Pugpolice COME ON!
OH MY GOD!
Ah, the roads not taken.
Marvel later did a What If? story where Hank Pym/Yellowjacket is killed in action against the Elf Queen. A grief-stricken Wasp gets a costume change and metes out brutal vigilante justice as...Black Wasp.
This would have happened in-canon if it had come out in the Nineties.
Michael Krumbein Man, I love What If stories!
did she killed the Elf Queen
It is definitely the thing Pym is known for outside of creating Ultron. I hate that it's part of his legacy because it's literally overshadowed every attempt to redeem him.
I thought how they portrayed Ant Man in Avengers EMH was a good start though, making him a pacifist, and making the clearer distinction of Yellowjacket being a more unhinged version of Pym. I figured it was easier to say he was out of his mind. Alas, despite that brilliant writing, Pym is still irredeemable.
That's evident with the movie where they chose to make Scott Lang the second Ant Man the main one in the MCU and age Pym and Wasp. So they avoid that nasty piece of comic history.
I do want to point some other things.
1. Mr. Fantastic abused Invisible Woman all the time and that past doesn't follow him.
2. DC's Black Canary beats the bejesus out of Green Arrow and it's played for comedy(Black Canary is considered one of the best fighters in the DC Universe, much better than Arrow at least).
Just wanted to point those last two out.
The way you put WIFE-BEATER in the title makes it sound like a gang/team name.
THE WIFE-BEATERS: Age of Ultron
So your telling me the character was basically ruined because some newbie wanted to draw fight scenes?
Pym hits his wife once and Marvel's audience can not forgive the character for years. But in Marvel's "Thor: The Dark World" the fist thing Jane does when she meets Thor again is hitting him in the face and the audience laughs while not giving a single flying fuck. Oh, the hypocrisy.
Maybe because Thor is a god and it didn't do anything to him? I guarantee you if she actually hurt him people woud've been ticked off. Hank gave Janet a black eye, there's a big difference.
If people got mad that Jane hurt Thor, it would have nothing to do with the abuse. It would be because he's supposed to be a god and she's a human.
Poor explanation.
The role in the AntMan movie is kinda reversed now as Hope is who hit Scott =XDDD
Ikr lol
Your research for these articles is (as always), amazing! Great job! And I also like the way you explain things! I enjoyed the video.
It's an interesting dichotomy. Hulk and Thor basically beat each other all the time and Hulk gives Spidey love taps. There are out and out battles between team mates that have gotten pretty violent as well (Iron Man vs. Cap while protecting Winter Soldier). This whole thing revolves around a court martial for excessive violence against a female villain when male villains are beaten into insensibility all the time. In my opinion the female baddies should get beaten as badly as any of the male villains. And how many times have we seen the old "Fooled you! I didn't actually surrender!" plot? Hank Pym "accidentally" hits Janet as his dreams and life are shattered and he is more hated than the Red Skull and the other major villains, including Dr. Doom, combined!
Scott, I've been watching for a while now... no, really, I have been watching your show for months. haha And I really love how Comic Misconceptions brings more and shows more of what most people think about or miss out on in the comics. You show a much different perspective of what the comics are. And how your show creates a community for critical thinking. I learn a lot from what you do, Scott. Thanks so much! :D
Daniel Quintana Thank you so much! Seriously, that genuinely means a lot to me, and is super encouraging to hear!
Hey Scott! Well, well.. Hank Pym. What can we say about this guy..? So as a DC first comic fan and not a big spender I missed that whole pivotal age where this would've had a big emotional impact on me and discovered this whole dark chapter of Hank into my twenties.
Now to be fair - it's not a big deal. *GASP* Yes, that's right. Settle down. It's a story. It's ink on paper. And it's been done before -- in an internet joke with the panel of Batman rattling Robin's teeth. And in context, Batman was going ... batty ... trying to pin his parents' murder on Superman and when Robin tried to talk some sense into him when Batman told him ... talk to the hand.
That's just one example, but I think that Hank Pym's was a lot "worse" because there's "projection" coming into play. For sensitive kids who maybe had it rough at home with a dad that isn't quite living up to the billing and the mom who's just trying to make it work.. this probably hits a little too close to home (seriously, no pun intended. bad taste zone). Dad's upset, Mom gets involved, things get ugly. Its a sad thing to say but it's all too common in a lot of youngsters' lives.
I think that Hank has become something of the unwitting effigy of the anger and distrust of these fans who witnessed a fear and revulsion existing in their actual lives permeate their comics. They watched Hank break a trust that means far more to the reader than "just another panel". Because you're now tying this story to actual traumatic life experience - I don't think Hank Pym can really live it down.
I like the fact that it is a defining moment in Hank's life. In comics, heroes can kill other characters, or even whole planets, and while it might take a toll on them, in the end they are still seen as heroes.
Having Hank as a fallen hero, whose actions don't seem larger than life, but rather, more like a closer to home domestic dispute, makes the impact on readers that much greater. It distinguishes Hank from other heroes. And, much like people in the real world, his actions, even if he apologizes for them countless times, they will follow him forever; which is tragic, but also gives him more to fight for as a superhero - to be able to redeem himself in the eyes of others, but even more-so, to the point where he can forgive himself.
{ANT-MAN SPOILER}
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Ant-man has something to do with ants.... and a man.... maybe...
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{/ANT-MAN SPOILER}
honestly hank was going through someone who have problem who was mentally unstable and to see he that he accidentally hit wasp would be asking a lot cause u must remember. that he was in a particular. zone that nobody could have get him out of even wasp and it just show how driven to do his plan but all and all this is my opinion that hank could be remember. as a diligent scientist who fail as much as he succeed in his own right
I think it's an incredible story, that really makes him stand out. A bipolar superhero: that is insane in itself
This was amazingly informative. I love your videos, they deserve more fame among the real comic book fans... most comic book reviewers finally give in and talk about movies and tv series all the time. You are one of the only ones who actually talk about comic books, the medium, the history, the people behind the stories.
Props.
With the second Ant Man movie, that trope is now officially NOT part of the MCU.
That's so cool! I never knew any of this! Wow! I love the depth that the comics went in to display a superhero with a psychological disorder, and how this perfect storm caused the incorrect portrayal of Hank Pym! I'm giddy with fascination!
Great video, Scott (as per usu),
I always think about this moment with the original Ant-Man, it definitely was one of his defining moments. But I never interpreted it as him being a wife beater, or brute. I always imagined that he was just a troubled individual and lost control at that moment and now has an action against him that follows him around. It definitely added depth to the character and I think the re-imagining of him with Bipolar was a nice touch from MARVEL.
I think the Hank Pym from the *Earth's Mightiest Heroes* series was the best representation of the character so far. As a scientist and genius who was never cut out to be a superhero.
And tbf it's probably why they aged him in the new MCU, because too many ppl would be expecting that reference in the film and that's not what MARVELs about.
***** I'm glad that Marvel decided to write him as man struggling with bipolar. It makes him interesting to me. Like how Tony Stark struggled with alcoholism. I like when Marvel incorporates real life issues with their heroes, its my favorite thing about Marvel actually.
Exactly what I said in another comment. The struggle makes it all the more real.
Like Hawkeye now having a family, what did Black Widow do that was so heinous?
Peter Parker just trying g to keep the lights on.
These were issues that kept u coming back.
This is interesting, that that frame was largly an accident. To this day, I remember reading/seeing that frame when it came out. Tho I had forgotten SAL, Elf queen , and court martial. Seeing a "good guy" striking his wife was damned odd back then.
Because geniuses are typically douchebags in comic books.
Lol love your videos!
Jericob Pena Hahaha, thanks!
that's a really cool behind the scenes story. It's cool to have an example of an accident in the process.
Harry Wompa Thanks! I found it interesting, and I'm glad you did too!
I'm convinced that this is why marvel studios went with Scott Lang as Ant-Man. Cuz if the fandom caught wind that marvel was putting out a movie featuring a character that hit his wife, there would be riots. Angry feminists who just googled the character five minutes prior and skimmed his wiki page would actively boycott the movie and claim that marvel condones violence against women.
+Warrior Studios Well sorry to disappoint you but your conspiracy theory is wrong. "Marvel" went with Scott because he's Edgar Wright's favorite ant-man.
I really don't think so. Edgar Wright wanted a passing of the torch movie, so he needed Hank Pym to be old, so that he couldn't just be Ant-Man himself. Then the movie was crammed into the MCU, and now the MCU Avengers will be missing two of the Marvel characters who has the most history with the Avengers, namely Hank and Janet.
I've been reading Marvel for decades and contrary to Brevoort's statement has never been an issue until they brought it up again around "Avengers Disassembled". They've even made up and I'm pretty sure that Pym mentioned doing therapy in an issue that happend before "West Coast Avengers" (the Avengers brought him in about something with Spider-Woman I think). If that is the one moment in Pym's life everyone is talking about it is because the creators made it so in the last decade or so. I've never really appreciated them going there so excessively.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that the mental health aspect seems to get glossed over. It'd be great to see that element properly addressed at some point.
I really hated seeing women getting smack in the face or beat up because it is really difficult on how to treat the women with good intention. I really think that Hank Pym just jealous on Janet Van Dyne doing most of the good things while Hank Pym is doing science laboratory work than doing good things to others. Notification to everyone: Hank Pym is NEVER ever a Wife-beater. Hank has a mental breakdown meaning on jealous on NOT doing good things to others.
I'm prolly gonna get a TLDR for this, but to that possible troll, I Can Read You Just Fine.
If I defend Hank, it is not to defend this moment. It was the lowest moment for a hero with a lot of low moments, and hell rightfully followed after. I wish to God Almighty the original intent had been followed, and Hank immediately abandoned his plan, seeking the divorce himself for doing the one thing he never wanted to. So my 'defense' is to point to the once-only nature of this, but doubly to the next most important fact : Jan kicked him out the door immediately following this. She didn't put up with it for years on end. One hit, he was done. As it should be. As depicted, it was a savagely bad moment.
If I bring up Jan's end of this, it is not to attack her or say in some Insane Troll Logic that she had it coming or some such nonsense. But she did play a role in how this turned out. This was the man's fourth such major breakdown. She married him during and after a bout of disassociative identity disorder. They met when he was a grieving widower who went on a rampage behind the Iron Curtain--this AFTER he and his wife thought it was safe to honeymoon in her not-free-at-all homeland, which managed to kill her Dad back in the US to boot. His response to this was to shrink himself, almost get eaten/torn apart in a Giger landscape, and then go back to it in the process risking his life against criminals, who could kill you really dead, even in the Silver Age. She was morning her father's murder at the hands of a vaguely Lovecraftian entity, and was, to hear the narrative, a very young naive sheltered girl. This was an unhealthy brew to start. Again, Avengers 211-213 was his fourth go-round with breaking down. Iron Curtain, Yellowjacket, Avengers 161 (he broke down, gained amnesia to just after Avengers # 1, and attacked his team as Ant-Man), this most infamous one, plus guilt from having created Ultron, who has repeatedly messed with his mind as well.
Reed and Sue had some unhealthy elements, but this was all the bad in their Silver Age without any of the good. Hank and Jan suffered from the slow build of their relationship from the time of naive assumptions to a much more knowledgeable and cynical time. To finish, I say, if post-Battleworld has a Hank and Jan in this new history, erase this moment hard, along with Gwen/Norman. Have them restart from a healthier place.
Rob Morris I just wanted to add to what I originally said. Despite what Scott was told in that statement from Marvel, IMO, not all later Marvel writers tried to rehabilitate Hank. I remember particularly before, during, and after 'Disassembled', the incident in reference was vaguely Flanderized into many years of physical abuse, maybe because the writers at that time only seemed to know it in reference. In fact, IIRC, it was almost 'Ultimized' in that way. That is an insult to Hank, who acted that loathsome on that occasion alone, and to Jan, who did not put up with it at all. Again, she shut him down and kicked him out.
BTW, this is the same era that gave us Carol Danvers' infamous pregnancy.
Rob Morris Just to clear that part up, it wasn't that Tom Brevoort said that EVERY writer since has been trying to redeem Hank for that moment. Rather, he said that many have tried, but nothing stuck. Probably because other writers try to capitalize on it. There's a kind of struggle between some of the writers where some just want to finally get people to look past it, where others want to spotlight it and frame it as who Hank truly is. So you are right that not all later writers tried to rehabilitate Hank, but that was never really stated as being the case. Hope that clears that up.
Sorry, Scott. My bad. I get a little bit visceral about how Hank gets treated, even past what he deserves. I'll post a later comment about an effort Marvel made towards his rehab - and how it was undone.
Rob Morris
Alright. This is based on my recall, which is great for some things, less so for others. Steve Engelhart's entire run of West Coast Avengers, from # 1 to 41 plus a good couple of annuals, had redeeming Hank Pym as a central point. Many storylines had this in there, including making it clear to Jan he had changed, even if they never got together again, because he owed it to her. Not only her suspicion and concern was brought up. When the team was betrayed to paranoid government authorities, some thought Hank was to blame, when in fact it was Quicksilver in one of his asshat phases. The final storyline had Hank, the WCA and Jan hunting down clues that said Maria Troyvana Pym, Hank's first wife, was alive and held captive by some of Hank's old Cold War enemies. In short, they found her, but hooked up to a machine that caused her brain to be made hideously overlarge for some kind of hybrid computer. Hank and Jan part company, with him dedicated to saving Maria and she wishing him well.
After Engelhart left WCA, his Scarlet Witch/Vision stories were rapidly negated, perhaps even brutally so. In a Solo Avengers/Avengers Spotlight story, the 'Maria' Pym had found turned out to be another AIM effort to created a MODOK like creature called MODAM, and was never her. After that, Hank and Jan began moving around each other again, with both much stronger than their Silver Age messed-uppery, and the talk began of them getting back together.
That fell apart, and I don't know why. By this, I mean I don't know where the objections came from, fans or writers, but some felt strongly that this would be Jan happily returning to her abuser. A kind of re-dorking of Hank followed, with one example being Hawkeye calling him out over it. I strongly feel this period led to the Ultimate and Zombie versions being such complete assholes, and maybe laid the ground for Hank not being in Avengers or the lead in the new film.
Trivia : Who was the first actor to play Ant-Man live action?
Garrett Morris, on a classic SNL skit in an episode hosted by Christopher Reeve.
This is a very unfortunate situation and I'm going to be honest, I don't like it, ESPECIALLY because it was a mistake. It simply should not have been so I don't accept or ever will accept the idea of him intentionally hitting her.
No comments? my time to shine! Um um um, I like trains!
Nailed it
theEpicGeek21525 Trains!
"Hank pym wasn't a wife-beater"
Me : thats what a wife-beater would say
I remember when u looked like that. A total College bro who should be in a frat or something.
Now u kinda look like ur in ur late 20s about to become more classy and well dressed. With tie-ins I'm kinda right in my description.
Katekyo504 hahaha! I WISH I was in my late twenties. I'm not a fan of being this young. All my good friends are much older than I am.
***** dont wish it away brother..use the time wisely... And keep growing..you can join us old people soon enough! Its a bit over-rated..
Jack Carroll thank you so much for the incredibly kind words!
It's great to see a character like Hank Pym a flawed hero. It makes him more realistic. They just have to find a way to redeem him.
The Ant Man movie was awesome! The movie was funny and action packed and the way he used his powers was done very well.
So Hank has bipolar disorder, Daredevil has depression and Moon Knight has multiple personality disorder, interesting. This is why I like Marvel a lot more than DC, they delve in to the heroes and give them flaws, has there ever been a comic that delved into Batman having a mental illness? I know on Game Theory they suggested that Batman has a hero complex or something like that and that makes it to where he purposesly places his badguys in Arkam because he knows they will escape and then he gets to be the hero but do they ever play on this in mainstream comics or is Batman just perfectly healthy despite how paranoid he is? The only DC characters I can think of that have a mental illness are the members of Watchmen and that was kind of the point.
MysteriousTomJenkins Oh yeah, and Tony Stark is an alcoholic. At least two founding Avengers and three major Marvel characters have mental disorders.
I like Marvel as much as the next guy but DC also has depth but you wouldn't know.. :/
Wan Farah
I guess not. I am not an advid comic reader, I only know most of these things from either videos or the wiki but I was well aware Tony's drinking problems. I can't recall some character flaws or traits in DC heroes though.
MysteriousTomJenkins Batman also has a lonelyness disorder :/
I think it's that Marvel is much more blatant and straightforward about their heroes having these kinds of flaws, where DC tries to let the reader put all the pieces together on their own. At least that's been my experience.
The plan of releasing that robot that with a weakness only he knew about and then defeating it to make it look like he saved everybody is exactly the same plan that Syndrome had in the incredibles.
Spoiler alert Antman shrinks
Jordan Duggan HOW DARE YOU!!! NOW THERE'S NO POINT IN EVEN WATCHING THE MOVIE!!!!!!!!!
Jordan Duggan DANG IT, I JUST WANTED TO HAVE A COMPLETELY UNSPOILED MOVIE EXEPRIENCE
Spoiler.
He is Ant-Man
its is the best Comic Channel in the YT ! Thanks man !! :)
Funny thing is if wasp beat hank pym then it would be seen as female power and hank pym would be made into a joke of a man
No it wouldn't, unless she was doing it in self defence. Attacking someone is attacking someone.
The incredible wolverine But that's because our society is dumb(No, not feminism).
And he was a joke of a man. And then he made Ultron. And then he was "Oh shit that's the guy who made the guy who killed my family!"/
*****
actually studies have shown that if a man is being attacked by a woman in public, people tend to either cheer the woman on, smile, laugh or even join in. the justification you hear later is " he probably deserved it".
kenonerboy Exactly. As I said, society is stupid.
(Again, nothing to do with what many people think feminism is)
***** What? Who?
Hank is like the superhero scientist that is out of control
Anyone remember when Spider-Man slapped a pregnant Mary Jane across a room? Just me? ok
no I remember that to.
What?!
That jerk
+robynmay wait when did that happen?
Mitchell Amar in the third movie.
Thing is this wasn’t the first time he struck her either. To keep Wasp from following him into danger in Kree Skrull War, he punched her in the head and knocked her out.
Quite blatantly too.
So people really got more angry at Pym for slapping his wife than for building a giant death robot because people disagreed with him, and trying to lie to his friends so they could trust him again? After all of that, I'd be surprised if he *didn't* slap some women around, he obviously seemed to not be in his right mind.
Plus, it's not like they had a history of spousal abuse. If you love someone and spend a large chunk of your life with them and consider them your better half, I'd be surprised if you didn't want to slap them at least once in your life. Like I said, he was obviously having a really bad week, and if your career involves punching most of the people you meet, I'm sure violence is just something that comes natural when you forget to hold back.
I have to wonder if the whole issue stems from the fact that it was a man hitting a woman. Which, to me, seems like a figurative slap in the face to the Wasp's whole character. She's supposed to be a strong, capable, independent person, just like any of the other Avengers. If everyone wants Batman and Superman to fight all the time, then they have to allow for situations where married people can also trade blows, even if a woman gets hit every so often. Even in real life, women are going to get abused, I'd say it's better to realize that it happens and prepare for it rather than pretending it doesn't exist and tricking people into thinking it can never happen to them.
So, mainly, it's on the artist for their exact depiction. Which wasn't truly what the writer wanted from that moment.
Well that's a shame, Idk how different it'd be nowadays if the writer's work got properly adapted... but who knows.
It doesn't matter if the story was created on accident, we shouldn't ever forget about it. Sure, it haunts Ant-Man until now, but it was also one of the most important moments for Wasp and women in comics in general, because she didn't just overlook it, she asked for a divorce. Domestic violence used to be a huge taboo, and a strong, admirable woman like Janet being so open about it and taking action herself was a huge deal at the time, much more than it would be today.
In fact, I don't like all the stories where Marvel tries to play the moment down or explain it away. Good people do bad things and they have consequences that last forever. They don't need mental illnesses for that. I hate that explanation that was fabricated afterwards. All it does is once more cement in comic books that mentally ill people are evil and can't be heroes, even if they try. I would be fine with Hank having BPD if it was revealed in a story that focused on it and his struggles of dealing with it, but not as a cheap explanation issued afterwards for why we all should feel sorry for the wife beater instead of the wife, who was the actual victim yet showed strength of character despite of it, especially given the time it was published in.
... the explation was not fabricated afterwards you idiot. Hank was under the effects of Pym particles stress many times, and in one of those times, he actually got schizophrenia and Wasp forced him to marry her. Love how you conveniently miss all of that in your post.
If I was Hank Pym I'd feel pretty miserable about myself too. Ultron uses his brain patterns and ends up being one of the Avenger's deadliest enemies. Vision (ironically built by Ultron), who uses Wonder Mans brain patterns turns out to be one of their greatest heroes. But in a way its also poetic justice. An attempt at doing something good turns out bad. But that bad thing then creates something good. Another thing Pym and Ultron share. Whenever they build robots it turns out the opposite to how they want it. Jocasta would be another example.
He sort of is an accidental anti-hero. And bi-polar disorder pretty much hits the nail on the head with him.
None of this would have happened if she brought him a sandwich like she was supposed to.
Rude, not funny
Emmie Impalandelorean So? I think he went easy on her...How bout that?!
If Tony Stark can have a drinking problem, then why can't Pym have Bipolar or an inability to check his emotions? That's good writing and brings these heroes down to a relatable level.
U end up asking urself how/why can these ppl be heroes? And then we read on to see how they identify with their problems and learn to rise above it for the better. That's what classes them as heroes.
"Never give up, never surrender. Not even in the face of armageddon."
***** Dude, stop using logic on youtube!
GroinFaceGroin For all we know that sandwich could have cured his bipolar disorder! Dammit, Janet!
I'm reading Comics for about thirty years or so. I don't remember that incident being that much of an issue before Marvel brought it up again just before "Avengers Disassembled" when Wasp made out with Hawkeye. That however always seemed a bit out of character considering what happened before especially in early issues of "West Coast Avengers". Hawkeye's attitude towards Giant-Man after he found out about him and Wasp isn't consistend with the one he had towards him in "WCA" which was way positive. Later on in that book Wasp and Hank started to slowly reconcile which was done pretty fine and basically continued on to that affair with Hawkeye. I always liked the various incarnations of Pym and never liked, that he was reduced to that one Moment him and Wasp had overcome decades before.
I can understand that hank pym was labeled like wife beater by hit violently to janet once. But why reed richards wasn't labeled like a wife beater? Considering that in marvel comic, reed hit to sue several times and he never feel any regret like hank pym, that after the ordeal of construct a robot to save his membership of avengers, he finally can see the damage that he cause and even he try to apologize with janet. But reed never apologize to sue after all the hits that he did or at least feel remourse by abuse of his wife.
Piece of weird Hank/Jan trivia. On an episode of MASH, company clerk Radar O'Reilly is on his cot with a comic book he fell asleep reading. The comic was one of the show's many anachronisms, a 1960's issue of Avengers, this during a war which lasted from 1050 to 1953. It was # 60, featuring Wasp and Yellowjacket's wedding, a story by Roy Thomas called 'Til Death Do Us Part'. Thomas later tried to reunite the pair during his early 1990's run on Avengers West Coast (as the book was later retitled).
Very late comment, but my view is that it doesn't REALLY make a lot of difference whether Hank is a habitual wife-beater when he's already, uh, a guy who has little enough care for other people to accidentally hit his wife while trying to defend his choice to build a robot to fight his teammates, to make them like him again, because they all think he used excessive force in a different incident. He's already being dangerous and manipulative and violent by the time the question of "did he mean to hit her" comes up.
Another really great episode Scott!
Meow Meow Thank you!
I think another reason why everybody mentions this is because Hank Pym is always written as an unlikable egomaniac who has a Napoleon complex
When your video goes quiet it sounds staticish .__. And great video n.n
Scott, I've been watching you for a while. You're different...and i believe that your yt channel deserves more subscribers, don't you think?
Wow this channel is so helpful it teaches me alot about comics!
Accident or not the reason I've always loved marvel comics is because they show their heroes having real life emotions. They're tortured individuals that do life threatening things and they get upset. Good Video!!
Yo that whole story of Hank unleashing the robot and attacking his gf are similar to Syndrome from the Incredibles
Awesome video Scott
Jack Higgins Thanks :)
And Hank basically died after that. Now he's merged with his psychotic robot son and his wife seems to have moved on. All I know is that they'll never get back together. And if they did they'd have to deal with a maniacal 3rd wheel.
Guys... He was in the midst of building a robot to attack his friends so he could fake saving them and get away with using excessive force (with another woman) and then he accidentally hit his wife and gave her a black eye... Give him a break.
That's actually really cool how that series of events and maybe accidents turned out this way. It may not be a good thing exactly, but it certainly turned out well for the story.
i do hate that something that was in storyline an accident and was misdrawn is all that Hank Pym was known for,
peter parker slapped mary jane in the 90s, Reed Richards has purposefully slapped sue storm several times yet these characters are free of blame and hank pym is known as a "wife beater"
Hank having anger issues, envy issues plus him being bipolar are a good flaw for him.
Him hitting Janet was just the result of those flaws.
Hank let his mental illness and insecurities control him instead of fighting against it. I think it is a good lesson for men to not let your mental problems and insecurity control you like it did Hank.
Avengers 214 is also the story where Ghost Rider beats the Avengers... sorta. I love that story, it's my favorite Ghost Rider story in fact.
I believe that it is a huge part of hank's character. Because it shows why he is currently trying to not be a hero, but be a good scientist. This is because he regret beating his wife, and wanted to help others in order to redeem himself. This is also why he is one of my favorite marvel and all of comics characters of all time, because he did something he regretted, but is trying to overcome that mistake.
Hank isn't forgiven because in that moment he became a villain, not a hero.
They should simply finish taking him down that road
I wonder what Stan Lee thought of that scene when it first came out.
Like Ultimate, the Marvel Zombies Hank kind of did the same thing to Wasp, except, since they were zombies he bit her head off. She survived and got a robot body and helped some zombies get rehabilitated, but she still had gotten her head bitten off by her, albeit zombie hunger crazed, husband.
Malicious Hero It would be Zombie-Hank who would do that, wouldn't it? haha
In marvel zombie universe, hank pym was a "wife bitter"
I think the fact that Hank Pym is a domestic abuser is a great wrinkle to the “super hero” story. The fact that they let a “hero” be shown to be so petty and insecure , I think is important as it shows young readers that an abuser will often seem like a perfectly good person, someone they are close to, but that just because that person isn’t a villain, it doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of horrible things.
Just with IronMan’s alcoholism, I was kind of hoping they would allow this to be shown in the films. Stories like these raises the Avenger’s above simply crowd pleasing children’s stories.
They had an opportunity to make alcoholism a real and painful struggle for Tony Stark in the movies - and seeing him overcome that struggle and addiction being treated as a disease , could have been huge .
The same with Hank Pym. It is no wonder they went with Scott Lang as their Ant Man instead of Hank - but had they gone with Hank , treated him like a normal hero, and then this dark side was revealed - if they handled it like the Ultimate comics, I think it would have been unexpected and powerful .
"Scott" "I've been watching you for a while now" lol
No8Named8Shadow He was just sitting there. Staring. For hours.
I wish they’d bring Hank back to life and do a comic approaching his mental health in a proper way.
still love hank pym I think they can make him an redemption character.