I think having a culture of over consumption is why we have a rise of anti-intellectulism. You dont give yourself time to reflect when youre trying to get through as many books as humanly possible
Valid but reading quickly or reading a lot of books is not always about consumerism. It can be done by borrowing books. Some just like to read a lot. And not everyone needs to go deep into thought after each and every read. That will depend on the person and their reading comprehension ability. Some people can think about a text while reading it and even remember it for a very long time after. Crazy right?!
@@autumnrose_noseinabook I was talking about the cultural expectations to read a lot of books and how it pushes people to read with the goal of finishing as many books as possible. This is pushed by algorithms because booktok creators need to constantly push out new content and are getting sent loads of books, which then sells the ideal reading style to be reading as many books as possible. This means people care less about what they're reading, if what they're reading is good or if they even liked it that much.
@@autumnrose_noseinabookOkay, but it’s very clear that booktok is all about consumerism, and not about actually reading and learning / gaining something from the book. It’s just a bunch of gooners flicking the bean.
My primary concern with encouraging the "turn off your brain" type of reading is what that tells publishers. If they see a wave of readers who identify books based on checklists of tropes and don't particularly what makes an individual book unique, they are not going to look for authors who focus on new ideas and write independently of said checklists. It's completely fine that some people just want to coast through stories with familiar events and archetypes without needing to look too deeply into it. I consume media like that sometimes too. But I don't want that to be all reading is, and I don't want people to incorrectly think that's all it is either.
I mean, that's just the state of publishing though, and it always has been. Divergent only got put on the shelves because publishers were capitalising on its similarities to the Hunger Games. The Vampire Diaries only became the (chaotic as hell) icon that it is because publishers and producers wanted to cash in on the success of supernatural romance tropes after Twilight. Replicating the tropes that are common to a genre readers seem to particularly like, regardless of the reasons, is something that the publishing industry will always do regardless of how "intellectual" the books are. They do not and have frankly never looked for authors that do not meet a checklist of what they think readers want.
This has quite literally always been true of publishing, which has always consisted principally of trope-y mass market genre fiction. If your parents' and grandparents' harlequin romance and serialized star trek novels didn't kill "literary" publishing, then neither will trope-y romance
@@Parrot5884we got soooooooo much subpar vampire fiction bc of the success of Anne Rice’s books! For every Dune and ASOIAF there were/are copycats that never quite hit the mark and then were forgotten by time. Publishers always have tried to cash in but the standouts tend to stay in the public consciousness
Mc Donald's also has not gotten rid of all decent restaurants. It's just a different taste. People who never would have picked up a book now do. Good on them. In a few yes they might want to try out something with a bit more substance.
The fact that when the "very demure, very mindful" trend gained traction and people came out in DROVES admitting they've never heard the word "demure" should be red flag enough.
I was floored when I noticed this. I also found it kind of funny at one point, because I was watching a video where someone said "demure isn't even a real word" (huh???), then later I was reading a book and it used that word in it.
(In response to Celine's video) I don't agree with the idea that easy marketing gimmicks is what is ruining publishing. Publishers are ruining publishing by deliberately putting out bad products. They've been snapping up marginally successful self-published works (especially if tik tok famous) for a quick buck but rather than editing it properly and investing into that author... they're putting it in print and in bookstores as literal unedited garbage. Then the tik tok stans of that book screech at people for pointing out it's a poorly written book and accuse them of being snobbish. Add in that people will now actually accuse someone of ableism for wanting a book that is edited due to culture politics and it's just a perfect storm for lowering the bar.
THIS!!! So many indie books are getting picked up, which is great, but that doesn’t mean those indies don’t need to be reviewed and possibly revised if needed. I love a lot of indie books, but many were badly edited.
@@Lectoracitónicaso maybe then we should stop thinking of culture as a consumable product…and more as culture. Maybe we should rethink a system that puts profit over everything else, Idk.
My only gripe is how the worst lazy written books that read like bad fanfictions, have bad plots, flat characters and are just full of smut are the ones that are more famous and are considered good quality and are everywhere. I just can't trust goodreads for a good book because books will say 5 stars and then they are just awful. Usually Young adult, so I now just avoid anything that says Young adult
This isn’t new, especially for the young adult genre though. For example, back in the early 2000s, Twilight was the biggest YA series, and even the people who like it admit it’s not very good. I feel like we forget through the lens of nostalgia that bad books have always existed and will always exist. The ones that stand the test of time will eventually become classics, but we really don’t have any more bad quality literature now than we ever have, percentage wise.
@@alexjones8843 Yes, in part thats right. But now with how social media works and the work of influencers, overconsumerism, and how trends affect publishing I feel that theres more and more of those books. I didnt like twilight when I was 14, I already found it cringey and bad and I dis read the first book to dee what the hype was about. So maybe its me too
@@loati94 I disagree, I don’t see any more bad literature being turned out than before. Again, you have to take away that nostalgic lens, people have been saying there’s no good literature being published anymore and that it’s the death of literature as we know it for absolutely forever. It’s a trend and trends die, and literature continues to endure. Just be more choosey with what you actually purchase, publisher won’t publish what won’t sell, period.
@@alexjones8843 but the thing is, Twilight was written better than Fourth Wing and Powerless (those are meant for older adults). I think the overall book quality has gone down. Sure, Twilight was bad, but it was WRITTEN decent. Went through an editor. Back in high school, all the YA books I've read are just simply BETTER than the popular ones nowadays which is saying something.
@@queenb2450 I highly disagree. Twilight is awfully paced, the dialogue is incredibly stiff, and the amount of things thrown at the wall for the sake of plot convenience is insane. Again, you're seeing it through the lens of nostalgia.
Let's slow down here. Why does there have to be a dichotomy between reading purely for escapism and reading purely for intellectual engagement? Why can't you do both? Why can't the same individual sometimes be in the mood to learn something, and sometimes be in the mood to hide from the world with a comfort read? It seems like the usual discourse sets up a conflict between supposedly pretentious readers, and supposedly lazy readers, when one person can contain multitudes. I know this is a taboo thing to say, but I firmly believe that we as readers have a responsibility to read for education. Yes, that may sometimes means reading things that aren't fun because we're adults who are capable of doing things that are necessary but not entertaining. It won't kill us. However, that doesn't mean your reading should be pure misery. I know full well that reading about the terrible realities of life can put me into a depression, and probably you as well. You also need to read for fun. I will not judge you for participating in fun reading events. This is a both/and situation.
I've started reading 2 books at a time, I read an easy enjoyable read and usually listen to an audiobook for a more difficult read (I'm dyslexic so listening helps my comprehension but I ended up buying the secret history because I wanted to read it while at work) I think when I talk to some people, it's really obvious that they never got past their YA level of reading. I do often read YA and there is nothing wrong with enjoying easy reads. But you should try to challenge yourself sometimes. My main push, tbh was that I didn't relate to 15-18 year olds anymore. I'm 23, I kinda want books about feeling lost and having to make decisions for yourself.
@@vainpiers Good for you. That sounds like a good rhythm for reading. Right now I've got a fantasy series going, but I'm getting curious about the 1960-1970s, so I'm just starting a history of rock and roll.
I agree with Nicole McKeon. But I do get the frustration if you're a person who loves to read for enjoyment, but can't read with their brain switched off. The market is _flooded_ with books without depth, research and they use Tell don't Show too often. Stories about self-insert characters, Mary Sues. Soo special, without ever delivering a reason why. What for. Groundless banter. "The misunderstanding". Love Interests that don't even pass as characters, they are objects. Dudes who are hot af, dangerous, possibly a murderer and for an incomprehensible reason into Mary Sue. They feel like pr0n that accidentally has hastily written scenes in between and way too many hidden cluster B personality disorder traits to feel comfortable while reading. And no love, frankly, mainly lust. Even publishers main these types of books now. I buy used books that are ~ 15 - 20 years old, because they are likely less shallow as modern books. The same is going on with TV shows and movies. There's very little content for those who can't switch their brains off. Genuine emotions get replaced with lust and appearance. That's not enough.
Soo im studying publishing in college, and im doing graphic design as a subject. What the girl said was: "Why are there so many words on the page?" which makes perfect sense. Sometimes when the typography is too small it gets cloudy and it is uncomfortable to read. She never complained about the amount of words, she complained about the amount of words per page, because it was too small. There is a huge deal for us to take that into consideration when preparing a book for printing, sooo as for the videos i've seen of people criticizing her is funny how readers don´t understan what she meant...maybe reading comprehension is not enough when it comes to people speaking. 😂😂😂😂
honestly i immediately understood that she just meant the font itself, but just couldn’t come up with the right word (cause that happens to me a lot - i am gonna construct the longest sentence ever when i could have just used one single word 😂) but people will use anything these days to justify them saying “booktok is stupid”
@@rayareadzzzz Absolutely! It's like them being readers doesn´t mean they understand what people mean when they speak like...MY GOD SOME CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT people speaking all lenguajes are hating on her for something she didn´t even say like 🙂🙃
she also isn’t a native english speaker and found the book easier to read once she switched to an e-reader! she literally was talking about the font and people took the least charitable interpretation of that
"Words that do nothing but fill page" is often used as critcism. I'm assuming some of them got both these phrases mixed up. I, personally, actually prefer a lot of words compact together, reminds me of 1960s and prior books (that I have) with such fonts. But Ik it can be quite difficult to read in a dim lighted room and just not good for eyesight.
I don't see any harm in picking up a book because it contains tropes you tend to enjoy, but I can see how it would be harmful if you refused to pick up books because of a lack of that trope. Some tropes can be really specific (like the only one bed) and if readers are refusing to consider a book because it doesn't contain something that specific, they're probably going to miss out on a lot of books they could enjoy. Even more general tropes can be very different experiences depending on the book and genre. So I only really see harm where it is used to exclude books rather than draw readers in. As for low quality books, there's always going to be low quality books because plenty of people enjoy "bad" books. Editors and agents enjoy "bad" books too--it's not always a gimmick.
I believe what really ruining booktook is lack of respect for others opinions. Sure some opinions aren't valid eg.racist or sexist. But I cannot stand people who choose to threatening or bullying everyone who disagree with them. Or who dislike character they like or like the same character but are critical about their behaviour. And literature as a whole? What really ruining it are greedy publicist who choose to publish everything without proper editing and misinforming about book genres. Most of so called ,,dark romance" are thrillers or porn, becuse they are ridden with abuse and poorly written sex scenes.
100% i also think this lack of respect and failure to communicate is prevalent everywhere not just on booktok try voicing ANY criticism about anyone’s music idol you’ll be eaten alive even if you yourself are a fan of said artist
TRUE! if someone shares their feelings online, people automatically find it an attack on them or on something else, when its simply an opinion and you could just say "oh, cool. I disagree, but I respect your opinion." I would love if we had a simple trend like "dumure, cutesy" to convey this issue on social media in a simple way that people with thick skulls can understand.
IMHO.. I think social media is slowly becoming a bully’s playground. Especially, in spaces with a cult following. I was shocked at how brutal the book community is the damage it’s doing to people. I was in the Candle and Body care community and they would bully each other. Same way it was in the couponing community, the crochet community, and even the Taco Bell community on Reddit gets straight brutal at times. It’s not an isolated community issue, it’s more of a toxic social media issue.
It's the gatekeepers and the newbies fighting. The gatekeeper takes his/her preferred stand, and no one, not even the gates of Heaven, will move them. And you better fall in line as well. The gaming community has some real nuts on both sides. Some people forget that not everyone has the same tastes, nor do we need to beat others over the head with our own beliefs.
people are forced to interact with people they don’t align with bc we don’t use forums anymore and are all in one place and a lot of people clearly don’t know how to handle that
@@charissawilkinson9270 something I like to call, "yes sir-ism" was prevalent for a long time on socials (also known as cancel culture), where the mintue you speak something not popular and not appealing to most, that's the mintue you get cancelled. That's something everyone's getting tired of and pushing back but it still somehow ends up in the game of which side is right and which wrong, rarely in the the greys. P.S.- if you want to correct me or put up an argument, please do it with some respect with an explanation of why I'm wrong about (so we all can learn).
I believe in the "everyone should read what they want" manifesto, but Celine does make a good point. At the same time, despite bad books always existing, it seems to me that over the years since BookTok became a thing it became worse and worse and it frustrates a lot of readers that have been reading since childhood/teenage years and already had Wattpad and fanfiction phases. Some of these popular books really do feel like that and the fact that some of them are actually published fanfiction is still baffling to me. I'm not going to blame new readers exactly, but mostly publishing houses and agents because maybe some creators will put out some great reviews on TikTok where they explain why the book is good/bad etc, but on the other side you'll have the creators that will give you recs based on tropes and aesthetics and will review the book based on how it made them feel (which says nothing about the quality of it). We already know to which one the publishing house will listen to and will want on their side. Definitely not the creator who makes valid points about a book because they need sales. Everything became about sales and the marketability of a book and the quality is quickly dropping. What they don't realize is that even the creators that they're profiting of off will develop a certain taste and eventually will stop buying and reading "trashy" books (of course these books are still needed because it generates money to other books to be published etc, but still). I became extremely selective with the books I buy and read specifically because of this and I take reviews on both BookTok and Bookstagram with a grain of salt even from people who have a similar taste to mine. My most read genres are romance, fantasy and lit fiction and let me tell you that what passes as fantasy nowadays, people would've had a field day with in 2012 compared to how it is now. I just feel like we should demand better and we're entitled to since we're actually paying for what's essentially entertainment, no matter the genre.
All of the fiction that booktok latches on to belongs to genres and "quality levels", if we want to be elitist about the value of the written word, that have always existed in publishing. It's just that booktok makes you aware of what other people are reading. It makes it seem like critics are fine with people reading fluffy bodice rippers or splatterpunk or any of the other genres getting hate (after all they never cared before), they just want people to treat it like a dirty little secret. Like they're just mad that someone is publicly enjoying something that they personally don't enjoy. It's the same contrarian energy as someone who hates Taylor Swift just because she's popular. I don't like her music either, but I'd never say her fans are "anti-intellectual" or "what's wrong with society". I'm just happy they're happy
The publicity is mostly what the entertainment publisher care about. In movie advance screening, they gave more tickets to KOL or influencer more than media. Simply for the wider reach. The review quality wise? Well...
While giving a recommendation with just how the books made them feel doesn’t say anything about what the book is about. Sometimes I do enjoy getting to know about a book based on that. Luckily right now we are able to look it up ourselves and see if it sounds like something we liked. I do also enjoy hearing someone else’s more in depth feedback about books.
my one wish for the book community (particularly tiktok but other social media as well) is for people to not think there is a "correct" way to engage with books (i.e. their way, their preference) and deem all others invalid. Both ends of the spectrum are annoying to me when they believe that other people are doing it wrong when reading is such a subjective and personal experience
A recommendation is not an analysis. Her sentiment is in the right place but her example doesn't hold. Her resentment for the publishing industry--rather her criticism--is correct.
Anti-intellectualism in art and entertainment is everywhere no matter what the medium. This attitude of insecurity and incuriosity is also prevalent in the film space. People are so fragile about their consumption habits anything remotely outside of their narrow lens is attacked as "pretentious." For example, Marvel fans are the WORST with this. They are the most fragile and nasty fandom out there. Even over Star Wars imo. The Star War fandom is INSANE, don't get me wrong. But the Marvel fanbase has a different shade in that they are sore winners. VERY SORE winners. Nobody can even levy the most mild and fair criticisms of a new Marvel thing without the fanbase spiraling into the most hateful, aggressive, and antagonistic vitriol you've ever seen. This reactionary fragility is happening right now as I type this to Jenna Ortega, who just shared her favorite films while on the press tour for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. She listed 5 rather well-known, acclaimed films as her favorites. But because they all aren't like, common American blockbusters from the past 15 years she's being attacked as "pretentious." No. Your willful incuriosity does not make someone pretentious. Just because you never heard of a film doesn't mean those who have are high-minded snobs. How about instead of feeling attacked and insecure about someone talking about films or books you never heard of, you take this as an opportunity to expand your horizons and try new things!? Crazy thought, right! Its like unless it has been irony poisoned and meme'd and consumed by the homogeny of internet culture, it doesn't exist to these people.
Writer here. I obviously can't speak for all authors, but I certainly wouldn't see someone talking about my work via buzz words and tropes as reducing it. Especially on a platform like TikTok which, like you said, is meant for shorter content. I would still be over the moon about an actual literary analysis, of course, but the fact that the girl you showed ranting in the beginning seems to think that writers would just stop being passionate and only ever chasing trends because people online are pointing out tropes they like in our work is frankly absurd. I will write until my dying days, I will write well, and I will do it in a gutter if I have to. It's why I was born, and however deeply other people might engage with my work is their own business. It does not minimize my work, and frankly, I'd just be happy someone is spreading word about it at all, even if what is said is "enemies to lovers" and nothing more.
I don't think that's what the girl in the beginning was saying. I think she meant if you reduce books to "enemies to lovers" and EVERYONE reads only that, then good books will stop being published because they don't have that specific element. For example, an awful, incoherent and bad written book with "enemies to lovers" in it will be published but not a great book without it.
I agree with absolutely everything, but i do agree with some other points the tiktok creator made, like making a certain trope or key word the only thing that drives people to read can be damaging, to writers and to us as readers, cuz it does have impact in the books we ultimately have access to. I do enjoy reading both for entertainment and to analyze and get knowledge, I think we could have both, but a VERY BIG, HUGE PART of the books that get published, lots of promo, that occupy the ‘favorites’ library shelfs are mediocre books that seem to be put together by a marketing team just to sell a lot, its okay if people enjoy them, but we also need well written books that feed our minds, because a book can be both entertaining and well put together and teach you things, but lots of artist that do dedicate themselves to crafting a book with mastery and passion often get discouraged to put their work out because they cant get it to sell, publishers often prioritize these tropekestein monster books that give them millions.
yeah i totally agree with this too, just waiting for the day we’ll be directing our frustration at those publishers instead of fighting among ourselves every couple of months
The assumption that if one didn’t exist people would just read the other is wild. The average Sarah J Maas reader isn’t going to turn around and pick up Proust if her books disappeared from the world tomorrow. They’re looking for a totally different reading experience!
Exactly! I've tried to give Jane Austin and Shakespeare a go because everyone around me was going on about how perfect those books are. But to me, they aren't. Closest to classics I get is Lord of the Rings because it scratches that fantasy nerd itch. People gotta realise there are other genres for a reason. And that there will always be other genres, other reading levels, other writing styles, and other age ranges in books because there are all sorts of readers. Just because one person absolutely hates YA doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Same for the Classics. Same for genre fiction vs literary fiction. All of it matters because there will always be readers who want it. And that's what matters most rather than someone's "hot take" or "unpopular [yet somehow always popular] opinion"
There are small communities/channels on youtube that dive into more academically challenging works of literature and if people want this perspective on reading to gain traction and/or be appreciated, they should support channels that contribute to that rather than try to change others.
That first one sounds like it was just a meme list. Kind of like “my favorite books that have the letter z in the title”, “top 5 books with blue covers”, “best books published the year I was born”, etc. It’s just a gimmick to base a list around, not reducing the author’s work to that thing.
Whenever I go browse through a bookshop, I see loads of pretty books with colored edging with marketing labels that sum up the tropes..."slow burn", "enemys to lovers" etc. ... People should read whatever they want and I am happy to see people on the train acually READING *yay*. But seems more and more publishers seem to care less about well-written (and I am not saying INTELLECTUAL!) literature, but more about selling special editions with collectors cards and other gimmicks. I have read a few of the popular booktok recommendations. Some of them really got me hooked, but MANY are boring, foreseeable, badly written, with shallow or stupid characters, because manuscripts are chosen by trope, not by how much time authors have spent developing a compelling plot, story arch and their characters. Booktok is a blessing because it brings more people to reading - but it also has an influence on the book publishing market ...and I am not sure it is only positive.
My concern is that authors have publicly said that they are adding certain tropes because of the shift of the publishing industry due to booktok. I do not understand why people are so against people suggesting that publishing is changing. Things change in society sometimes, why is it so wrong for us to look at how it is changing?
I think also when it comes to intellectualism is that it can be found in places you wouldn’t expect. I can read a well written, deep book about society and come out…okay, cool. Moving on, acknowledge its depth but don’t feel the drive to go further with it. But then I read a book about a man who has been broken beyond repair, lost in his own sense of loss and loneliness and injustice, going through the last resort he feels he can do in order to find the greater good and do unjustifiable acts to do it. How he and his father figure long to reconnect and not fight, but then are kept as enemies through generational trauma, misunderstandings, and the horrors of war. And this book that has me wanting to do a long drawn out academic essay…is from a mostly unknown Star Wars book published in 2004. Not exactly high literature, but as a reader it can make me talk for hours upon hours of the depth in it. There is a lot of bias in what literature is ‘academic and worthy of study’ and ‘funny little books’ and I feel that can be as big of a problem.
@@hanakesseibi.5b.273 The Star Wars book is called Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. Excellent book if you are a fan of Yoda and/or Count Dooku, or the clone wars era.
@@Shadowclanwarrior246 im going to be completely honest with you and say I've never watched a star wars movie in my life lol but the book description seems interesting, will keep it in mind in case one day i decided to enter that rabbit hole
You can have deep themes set in the fantasy world and the most wish fulfillment garbage devoid of any internal logic in a modern-day city slums. It is the themes and how they are handled what makes or break a book, not the setting.
It may just be a me thing but I feel like readers who read enough cannot really turn off their brain for a book. There is a reason people dislike books for bad writing or harmful messages, because the brain is reacting to the book as you read. Even when you read for entertainment you are always analyzing the work you are consuming.
Nicole McKeon hits the nail on the head. When I was in school I hated reading because I did not like the books I was forced to read, analyze, and write a report on for a grade. I did not truly love reading until Harry Potter came along. Changed my view of reading and it has become my favorite pastime/ hobby/ escape.
As someone raised by a librarian, I know I have a lot of privilege when it comes to educational access. That being said, I think that the idea of "turning off your brain" to read can be low-key dangerous. Maybe i am just jaded by the incredible cultural (& not limited to book tok) upswing in both anti intellectualism and down swing of media literacy lately. I absolutely have books i have read that are for pure entertainment, but I personally can't read books that contain things that perpetuate harmful things like racism/ableism/prejudices, abuse or lack of consent. And while i can give people grace to like things, i think frustration with the popularity of books that promote or at least don't challenge the more harmful cultural issues is legitimate to bring up, and definitely something I struggle to balance. The first video did conflate that and the fact that there is a totally separate issue of the publishing industry and the lack of editors/sensitivity readers. Some books are legit just straight off wattpad, and while not necessarily bad, also *clearly* not professionally edited. That also often leads to books with racism/prejudices unchecked because of that.. basically, I just feel... exhausted? like I was there when Ao3 was founded (insert Aslan "Don't cite the deep magic" gif here). 😂 I have been through my bad/mediocre fanfic phase, i can't deal with them popping up in a Barnes and Noble 😂😂😂
I get what Celine is saying but it’s honestly absurd that they used “books with a strong female protagonist” as an example that’s supposed to be a bad thing?? Especially for an SFF book?! I’ve been reading SFF since I was a kid and for a while it was really difficult to find any book in that genre with great female characters. Anyone who knows the history of SFF knows that it was male-dominated only until fairly recently. So to act like a list of books with strong female characters is a BAD thing is just incomprehensible to me, someone who literally googled “feminist sci-fi” back in 2015 cause I was so so tired of reading sexist sci-fi. I didn’t care about the literary analysis of books with flat female characters or just no women at all. Just because there are a lot of diverse options now doesn’t mean there always was.
i see absolutely nothing wrong with that either 🤷🏻♀️ if we go by this logic, all types of list videos e.g. “cozy fall books” or “specific book recommendations” (even here on YT) need to be eradicated and we should only have serious in depth descriptions listing every single aspect of the books we are talking about my question is why not have both :)
yeah I think that was one aspect that showed that while she has good intentions was a little out of her depth especially with her knowledge of certain topics feeling very limited to the past few years and kind of showed how young she is
On the other hand, there are characters called a strong female character who are really just assholes with a vagina. It really takes you out of a story if you don't mesh well with the main character. It's a double-edged sword, especially for women, because being a "bitch" does not make you a strong female character it makes you a jerk.
I agree w you but I feel like her specific example is kinda the lynchpin un her argument. Poppy wars is a semi fictionalized recounting of the sino-Japanese war and subsequent genocide. It’s extremely graphic, and while the FMC is powerful and strong, morally grey is a generous way to frame her. Boiling that particular book series down to ✨girl power✨ is reductive at best but dishonest and setting people up for trauma at worst
As someone who grew up reading the classics (Little Women, Crime and Punishment) and recently read Determined: A science of Life without Free Will, is was incredibly refreshing to read The Haunting, a middle school novel🤣anti-intellectualism is absolutely on the rise, but some of us have to read academic literature and technical writing for a living. It was such a relief to read something low effort. Some of us actually exercise our intellect all the time in other ways, and leisurely reading doesn’t have to be a mental exercise too. My concern is that reading is many people’s ONLY form of cognitive exercise. It’s healthy to challenge themselves or consume something impactful and meaningful to society and your development as a person.
I personally don't have anything against reading for fun or for educating oneself. Sometimes you can even find both things in the same book! What I suggest is never closing up to new reading experiences. If you always read for fun, go for it, but that *doesn't mean* you won't enjoy to read with the purpose of learning something. Life brings surprises in many shapes.
I def agree with the overall messaging that it is silly for there to be infighting, especially as you pointed out that tiktok is specifically short form content. Since there is limited time, there is going to be limited conversation and I think you're correct to identify that tiktok is not the right platform for in depth analysis of text. I would attribute this more to something along the lines of a post I saw earlier today pointing out how a lot of the tiktok book culture is reminiscent of fanfiction culture, and a lot of the entertainment readers are discovering the joys of fan culture for the first time as grown adults rather than teenagers on a new hype train. Which may explain a lot of the difference between the entertainment readers and analytical readers. However, I want to push back on the idea of reading "just for fun" or "just for entertainment" is equivalent to not engaging with the text. From what I can infer, it seems to have an underlying connotation of no thoughts, brain empty consumption of plot. The idea that engaging with the text is implicitly something academic or intellectualizing is, to me, patently false. Does it require some education and skill? absolutely! However basic skills in engaging text are taught at every level of language arts in schooling. Even first graders are asked reading comprehension questions- which requires engaging with the text. This is taught so early specifically because it is incredibly important skill to have! You should be engaging with it! Zoe Bee has a video out recently where she quoted someone (who quoted a book) stating that media analysis is finding out the difference between plot and story. The no thoughts, brain empty approach really just gets you the plot. It doesn't even really expose why you thought the book was entertaining as just explaining why the book was entertaining requires engaging with the text on some level. Just identifying tropes is already engaging with it! While I don't think everyone needs to get analytical and talk about the story/themes of books, not engaging with the text is ultimately no different than doomscrolling. The folks that can point out that they find specific trope entertaining are still engaging with the text. I guess this is all to say that I'd argue that a lot of the entertainment readers are engaging with the text a lot more than the analytical readers are giving them credit for. And in addition to that, it can also be true that there is something to the idea of expecting the entertainment readers to put a little more effort into the engaging with the text for better understanding of media. Two things can be true!
it’s pure chaos in the publishing world. So many manuals that would have been laughed at years ago are now published best sellers and make the booktok popularity rounds. the two entities feed into each other. I am a writer, so I engage with books differently. I don’t care if the blurb purports that this book has all the elements I typically enjoy, if the writing is bad, I will DNF that book. Writing is like 80% my enjoyment of a book. Popular example, My Brilliant Friend is wonderful. The writing is crisp yet heart-wrenching and the characters are believable. I have noticed that if a book is rated highly, I will not like that book. I recently DNF’d Spoilt Creatures because while the writing was okay, I did not care about the characters (Emma Cline did this story so much better!). Last year I DNF’ed Betty, a beloved book that made me so angry I can’t even begin to explain why lol. I get we all read for different reasons, and I agree we are in an age of anti intellectualism (I have been interested in reading ACOTAR just for fun but would never read a Colleen Hoover book omg). But I know historically for me, I do not enjoy the books made popular by booktok and pay their discourses and recommendations no mind. I say find your own book community. RUclips is an excellent place for more “intellectually engaged” readers!
Agree, I have also turned away from BookTok and found creators on youtube instead. I really enjoed the enthusiasm on TikTok, but every time I picked up a book I saw recommended on there, I was dissappointed, with ACOTAR being the final straw.
Same here I've had forever of if its popular there's a good chance I'll dislike it with very few exceptions usually i try to read the synopsis and judge based on that whether i will be interested
Her video is completely valid, but it rubs me the wrong way that she ended it with talking about books 'in the correct way'. There's no one correct way to talk about a book
I tend to avoid tiktok book recs cause so many of them read like bad fanfiction. And i do mean bad, like the publisher took it straight to print after doing no more than changing the names. They need to be heavily edited before printing. As a fic writer, I feel like such poorly written works makes us look bad as a whole and yes, I'm bitter about it. But I'm not gonna blame the readers. Also, why would I pay 30$ for published fic when I can get better online for free? I want a certain level of finish if I'm paying for a book and most booktok recs don't have that in my opinion. I want publishers to do better by BOTH readers AND writers. I feel like this argument in general is silly. Fabio-cover romance novels used to be the thing people scoffed at, harlequin stuff, calling them trash or vapid. I feel like maybe this is a bit of an extension of that? Idk But i don't think it's anti-intellectualism to read "vapid" or even ficy works. I'm not mad at the readers, I'm mad at the publishing industry.
I think that, regardless of the publishing industry, virality, algorithm values, etc; what we need more of in tiktok is an incentive to think about what you are reading. You don't have to be super critical about it or share your opinion (if you don't want to), but its very valuable to read and think about what we like or dislike in a book. It provides us with growth, wisdom and more knowledge about ourselves, even if the book didn't teach you anything new in other regards. Being able to interpret and analyze art better is a skill that we all can benefit from! I think its also important we know that we should always give valid criticism (no death threats or disrespect, like raya said), but we don't necessarily always need to give constructive criticism, as in: we don't need to know how the book`s problem should be fixed, that's the author`s and editor`s job. We don't need to provide options to solve the problem before we tell the specialists what the problem is. I do think its a good exercise to do, to think what i would change in a story so i`d like it more, but as consumers and readers that's not something a person should be forced to do when giving a review. If the author and editor know how to take it, its still going to be constructive! I hope i made some sense, sorry for rambling :) I love your videos, they always make me think
I agree and don't agree. When I think back to my younger self, I had good ability to discern quality in a book. The issue was more that I would get very hyped up and emotional about some stories, even though I knew they were not of the best quality. My ability to detect quality has increased through the years and was not as good back then compared to now. But I think with teenagers, it's that when you find something that gives you all the emotions, you go ALL IN. So if you find a romance that speaks to you for whatever reason, you will hype it up to the highest degree and spread it. I think this hyperemotionality doesn't come just as often in books that are more literary or nonfiction (even though it absolutely can). Does that make sense? I feel like I've been rambling more than explaining lol
@@justink5000 Yeah I think that you are correct in your case but my point was that you are an exception and most people our age in my experience do not read.
I think the problem is less Booktok and more the lessons publishers are taking from Booktok. I'm such a huge fan of One Piece that I've watched the ENTIRE series a good 6 times over now and a big part of that is that it's very easy to watch without thinking about it much deeper. There's a simple and satisfying formula all of its arcs follow and it's fun watching it play out different ways time and time again. However, what differentiates this from your average Booktok sensation is that there absolutely IS room to critically analyze One Piece's anarchist themes even if they're actually pretty shallow or how Oda can make extremely simple characters feel more complex than they actually are by constantly using the environment to his advantage. With a book like Fourth Wing, though, trying to apply that same critical lens simply exposes that the book truly has nothing underneath and is haphazardly held together with lazy trope invocations and vibes while the narrative and world fall apart under the slightest scrutiny. I guess the long and short of it is that no one is advocating against stories you can enjoy without deeper thought. They're advocating against stories you can ONLY enjoy without deeper thought.
its still disheartening to see how most booktok books dont have diverse protagonists and members of the LGBTQIA community. literally most popular books will have a basic white cis het fmc and frankly, some of us are tired of it. also how booktok is normalising calling straight up p0rny erotic books as dark "romance" is very questionable.
I think the Issue if people seem to think reading is just about being smart, I read because I enjoy it I am not reading to gain knowledge, I have nothing against people who do but I think a lot of the people who view books that way don't want to hear other point of views especially those who read for fun and as an escape. I definatly think there is an issue with people misidentifying books especially those with deeper topics. I think the creator you show at the beginning proves this point,
Its complicated because I do things conversations about problematic themes or just general depth can be canceled when someone is like I don't really want to have conversation and just want to enjoy the book or whatever topics despite its possible flaws but I also think people should be able to enjoy what they want. Sometimes it feels like people always expect you understand super deep themes or pay attention to every detail when I just want to enjoy things in a low effort way that might not capture the depth that someone who is super concerned with understanding every single word and theme might have. Its just not fun to analyze things that hard tbh
I didn't sleep all night, so the sped up commentary from the video that you are referencing is almost incomprehensible to me. I'm trying to work out how to talk about reading for education and reading for pleasure in a different way. I have no problem with people reading for pleasure. I don't think reading is about showing off how smart someone is because they can analyze some popular novel I probably haven't read. That feels too much like people are trying to be popular girls in the booktube high school. I do worry about society though. I worry that the general level of education, and commitment to lifelong learning, has decreased in recent decades. I worry and get frustrated that there are so few readers in general, and when so many readers are ONLY willing to read for escapism, never nonfiction for education. It's not because I want to be a pretentious snob. It's because I want democracy to continue. Does that make sense?
@@TimeTravelReads You are proving my point, you are saying you don't mind people who read for escapism then saying reading for escapism is too big and we shouldn't be doing it. if you are reading to learn great good for you but so Manu people in recent years have learnt that reading can be a form of escapism just like watching a TV show or movie.
@@Kirsten.shergold I don't think she's saying there's anything wrong with reading for escapism, only the fact that it is so popular right now shows a deep structural problem within our society. There's a reason why people prefer to live in a fantasy, why people recommend books with the same plot over and over again, why most popular books barely incite to question anything. At least that's my perspective, since I used to read for escapism back when I was a severely anxious teenager with virtually no friends, and my tendencies have changed when I've gotten better in recent years
@xmxzng1617 I don't think this is a fault of readers or BookTok at all, though. They want a way forward in real life to make things possible, and if The Powers That Be thwart that, they may understandably seek out living through characters for a sense of control. You have generations of people afraid they'll never be able to afford a home or children, drowning in debt, watching rights be stripped away. You want them having deep thoughts about books when the world is making it difficult to act on deep thoughts in reality? I think rather than focusing on a particular level of book, we need to address the fact that reading novels increases empathy. We need people to be more empathetic. That is much more significant than arguing about the need for a particularly deep theme versus a shallow trope.
I completely agree with your views on this. As someone who rates based on feelings and analysis after finishing (unless it's a book for education), sometimes you just need a book to get away from life. I believe a lot of readers on tik tok are new to reading and haven't built up that skill of being able to deeply analyse (i mean this in the least condescending way), i was exactly the same, ive only been reading for a few years but ive definitely picked up 'harder' books and thought more about the writing, meanings, how in depth, etc a book is the more ive read. I also think there needs to be some recognition to the fact that there are more readers than ever before now, and book tok is creating that.
I think it's good to read a book for entertainment alone, but maybe after reading a book for fun, we should all feel encouraged to engage with the text on a critical and analytical level, because it helps us understand the book in a way, and allows for people to enjoy and like the book in a different manner. It also allows for great engagement in the book and allows you to appreciate the work, the story, the themes, the characters, the relationships, word choice, etc. more! Maybe this is coming from a writer who finds analysis of text to be enjoyable and entertaining, however, I really do love analyzing the things that I love. If not to show the love you have for a book, but by analyzing it and looking at all the thought and detail put into said book. Literary analysis can be a great way to engage with your books, even if your predominant motivation is to be entertained by the book. I really recommend trying this approach, as you get the best of both worlds, work on yourself, and still feel like you're building new skills!
agree with a lot of what you said! I will say a lot of times people have frustration with something within booktok, or booksta, or booktwt, it turns out to be a systemic issue and something from publishing. Every time issues like this pop up I get frustrated that people treat these billion dollar companies like they don’t have agency. On the other hand, seeing a dumb take isn’t always a sign of a larger systemic issue, and there will always be dumb people in the same fandom spaces as you. It would save a lot of people time and sanity if we reminded ourselves that we don’t have to engage with those sorts of people and just laugh at them with our friends like we used to instead of trying to make it a big issue
I disagree with a lot of takes in the video. On the second tiktok, the OP wants to know when did we started criticizing reading as entertainment only, but I think they believe that people who are exposing the anti-intellectualism are condemning reading for pleasure when it’s not the case. We do not believe that reading as leisure activity is bad, as art is made to be felt. BUT, I believe we cannot consume things just for the sake of it, ignoring the rational aspects. The whole point of the analysis is showing how the book market changed into something so vile, where you have to publish the shallowest pieces to attract people and sell more and more. In this scenario, the literary path is becoming tortuous because no one is able to critically think anymore, reading has become an aesthetic thing more then anything else. So yes, you can read for fun and you should do it, but when you ONLY read for funsies, you let you critical skills deteriorate. The tropes are a thing that is ok but has been used for bad. When a book of a certain trope is sold in spite of other that does not belong in any trope, we kill an important part of literary consumption that is exploring, giving oportunities and broading our world vision. It also prejudices the authors, who can no longer create from within, but to fill some made up tropes that are hyped at the moment. This makes de writing souless and marketable. The capitalist system is purposefully tiring all of its subjects so they can only consume art that is empty, which makes the population unable to critical think, to fight for ideals and to resist. The system tells you "it's ok to turn off your brain" so you can't contest anything, as books were always a resistance thing. People who think, who criticize, who speak up are the ones they are afraid of. Or do you think the book bannings are just a random coincidence? We should learn that reading is for entertaining, yes, but we should not ignore the whole intellectual aspect of it.
Are y’all really out here policing people on how to read??? Let people read how they want and express what they read how they want. If people want book tok to become an intellectual space then become the majority that makes it so and control the marketplace. Criticizing the reader makes no sense.
@@Annbyrd i believe this mindset of “let people enjoy things” is very dengerous. no one is forcing you to read only intelectual things, but we do want people to rationalize their reading, that being a classic or a silly romance. sometimes is good to read things you are not used to with the main goal to gain knowledge, get out of your confort zone and know more about things you are not familiar. again, you can read what you want, but i do believe you have a lot to gain from diversifying your books. also, the whole point is to critically read, even if is the silly books.
I think society in general, and large portions of the internet have led to the increase in anti-intellectualism. Anyone now can post a comment and make a video, and, although they may dress their comment or video up in big words and flowery language, do they actually know anything more than anyone else? In most cases I would say no, but, what do I know of such deep things?
Writer here. I feel like there r so many books that are simple and enjoyable but also have good messages. You dont need a book to be difficult to read or understand or follow in order for it to send a well-developed message for the reader. Simultaneously, u don’t need a book to be devoid of substance or an important message in order for it to be easy to read or a way to escape. The problem involves the readers, the reviewers, the authors, and the publishers. Choosing to read a book for its tropes. Choosing to review a book only for its tropes, or recommend it based on its trope. Choosing to write a book just because u want a trope to be in it. Choosing to publish a book because it has a trope ppl want to read. It’s a cycle. As a writer, it troubles me that I may never get to publish someday because the tropes in my book are not as copy and paste as ppl want them to be these days. The general worry, I think, when ppl express their concern of anti-intellectualism is the disappearance of intellectualism. If books don’t have meaning, what do they have? U can even write ‘spice’ scenes to have meaning! I don’t understand the point of reading books if they don’t make you feel something or change your perspective. But maybe that’s just me. And of course I believe ppl have the right to read the books they want to read. But why do ppl NOT want to learn from books? We need to exercise our minds!!
Great video. I've found that many people, when they strongly love or hate a piece of media, are unable to think critically about why they love or hate it, so when someone comes in with an opposing analysis, they think that person is wrong, stupid, trying to go against the grain for clicks, etc, because they don't even understand their own views. From what I've seen, I think the book community is a diverse in its discussion than in the TV/movie sphere, where many people seem to have the same dominating opinions and base these opinions off the opinions of others either in their circle or in some position of authority, and those with more "unpopular" opinions are too afraid to share these in case they get hate. I wish people would realize that learning how to think critically about media doesn't ruin the experience of consuming media, and that it's okay to challenge commonly accepted viewpoints, even when those viewpoints are your own. Reading or watching something with your brain turned on doesn't have to be some massively draining experience. There have been books where I know it's not some groundbreaking piece of literature, but I enjoyed the experience without having to "turn my brain off" and that was that. Then there have been books that are considered incredible forms of high literature that straight up suck. We have to be able to voice our criticisms AND our praises without fearing harassment so that we can actually converse intelligently about trends and topics when it comes to writing and consuming fiction.
Re: on criticizing people's favorite content: I think this is true of all content we consume. People have lost the ability of separating art from the people consuming it- highly due to internet discourse and its inherent nature of needing to promote drama and negativity to generate engagement imo. So, since we, as a culture, view the flaws of the content being consumed as indicative of the flaws of the consumer, we correlate the criticism of the content with direct criticism toward individuals engaging with said content, and people tend to get very defensive when they feel like they are being criticized for something they enjoy. This is due to the general lack of media literacy and the inability of popular discourse to separate the art from the consumer, as well as the flaws existing within a piece of art from its merits. This in turn stems from our cultures obsession with political correctness and the idea that the media you enjoy are a direct reflection of your morals and values. In other words, since a good majority of art consumers do not have or do jot exercise the ability to be critical of the content they enjoy, and to be able to recognize its flaws without feeling the need to entirely condemn it, we end up with a very large group of people within today's society who either only consume what is deemed "acceptable" by the general standard _or_ feel the need to bend over backwards to make excuses and defend the content they consume that might be deemed "problematic" by those same standards, because they have been taught by popular discourse that their moral standing and irl values are directly extrapolated from the moral purity and values of the content they consume. So in this atmosphere of constant judgment of character, based not on actual views, actions, or morals, but on the outward appearance we project (mainly on social media), criticism of art _becomes_ criticism of the individual, due to this correlation. Popular culture lacks the ability to differentiate between the flaws of a narrative and the flaws of the individual creating or consuming it, and therefore lacks the ability to separate criticism of that narrative from criticism of the individual. This is a huge discussion and it encompasses way more than just our attitude toward literary criticism. This attitude, which is a byproduct of the current space our culture as a whole occupies - which is one of either utter condemnation or absolute, unquestioned support, both based on judgment regarding moral purity - leaves no room for nuance. So how can we be critical of the media we enjoy, when criticism implies moral failure of both content and consumer? The only way forward is abandoning this mindset of absolutism, and allowing space for nuance and even flaws, because that is the nature of our existence. Very few things are ever black or white in this world, and holding ourselves to this impossible standard of either complete moral purity or complete moral failure is unrealistic and it's holding us back as a society. Reintroducing the grey area into popular discourse is the key to untangling all these other issues that stem from our society's absolutist view of the world we inhabit. Tl;dr: the way our culture treats discourse as a whole affects the way we discuss specific topics and the discourse surrounding them.
I feel all this certainly depends on context and also what sort of books you like. My reading taste is a bit jumbled - one example is I read the love hypothesis straight after wuthering heights and I liked them both. HOWEVER would I want to recommend them using the same language? Absolutely not.
if a book has a price tag and wants you to spend your hard-earned cash on it - gosh, yes!!! a book should be out through a critical and sometimes negative review - I am sorry hard-working author, that's in the interest of the public. The author put a f price tag on it.
I think it's important to note that criticizing a book is not the same thing as telling people not to read it. There are books I didn't enjoy or that I couldn't get into, but I would never tell anyone not to read something and form their own opinion. It seems like the monetization of book content creation has no room for negative reviews, because positive reviews/recommendations drive sales and consumption is the lifeblood of content creation.
honestly that person on tiktok is right. trope-ification of literature has led to a ton of books written in like a month that have horrendous writing being published, while authors who work on their craft for years are being rejected by publishers. I'm simply unable to respect the booktok community when they push trash into the mainstream while actual good writers are either not getting the success they deserve or they're not getting published in the first place
For anyone who needs book recommendations: loooook at THE YALE LITERATURE-COURSE I got book recommendations sweet heart I got book recommendations for you sweet heart hey I got (vomits from one to many gin martinis.) Ok ok ok Richard wright Bkack Boy Native son, Uncle toms children. Uhm uhm Ralph Ellison Invisible man and Juneteenth. Anything by Toni Morrison and Alice Walker: Caviat Emptor (no joke) Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow, lot 49, against the day, and V
Okay, Celine is really taking herself seriously. When I was little in the library, I'd pick books by interesting cover, recognition and blurb or synopsis. It's the way you pick out books. I like analysis. I watch them plenty, but that's, as you said, different and it's consuming someone's opinion. People get different things from the same book. Deep analysis is still based on interpretation. Look at what authors have said about their own work, and compare it to what readers have gotten from the books. There's a lot of differences. Oh, also, Four years of work? Most authors who survive don't spend near that long. It may be a great book, but we need money. It's designed to be made in a reasonable time frame, and be commercially viable. Great American, or Russian, or...etc, novels that take over a decade and a laudanum habit are, mostly, in the past. Heck, given the number of penny dreadfuls in the 1800s, and spy, sci-fi and detective serials up to the eighties, that was always the fancy pants way to do things, and not necessarily the way of a working writer. Oh, jewelry design, like any form of... anything, does get criticism. I like Nicole's take.
The first one has such a weird anger and acts exactly how they accuse others of doing: making assumptions. With that tone and attitude, it's no wonder people took it as an attack. What if a strong female character is a thing I like and it makes me look at the book? It doesn't mean that I won't absorb the other things. You don't know if they can discuss that just because they mention one element. 'you can't reduce it to just a strong female character' yes I can. I can reduce it to just a book. To paper. Words. How offensive Mind you I'm saying this as someone who's in her English lit masters. I LOVE intellectual discussions. But I can't expect that out of most people outside of the classroom with a few exception. If reducing kills literature, then fanfiction tags would've died long ago.
I live in Ukraine. There are a lot of new publishing houses now looking for authors who write in the genres of romance, paranormal romance, romantasy; with enemies to lovers, forced marriage, mafia, werewolves, and alpha male tropes. I'm not kidding. It's written on the main page of their website. And it's unfortunate because, in Ukraine, very few authors write in genre literature like sci-fi and fantasy. We can't boast of a variety of translated literature yet either. As a result, if you don't read in English, you are forced to read a few popular TikTok books, most of which cannot boast of the quality of the text or the plot. Or stick to classics, literary fiction, and/or nonfiction.
My biggest concern is that we’re making ourselves as a species dumber. The average reading level for an American adult is 5th grade. That is not going to get any better if books - which are only consumed by people who actually want to read and ostensibly improve their ability to read- are also at a 5th grade level. Fully believe that reading for entertainment is a good thing, but it’s completely detached from reality to argue that a book is “good” when it’s about as structurally sound as a house of cards. And that’s mostly the fault of publishers, but they are following the money. They’re seeing books like fourth wing be published with no trace of an editor in those pages and being rated at the same level as war and peace. They will continue to give us subpar work as long as we endorse it. And no, I’m not saying fourth wing shouldn’t have been published. I’m saying that there should be at least a rudimentary grasp of the English language demonstrated in a book that people are raving over.
I think it best to just accept that a lot of content creators want to make a buck. It is a job and they want to be paid. I don't trust booktube or booktok. To be fair, I don't trust other authors either. The more glowing blurbs on a book from authors, the more I know that the book will be a disappointment to me. It is all just promo now and the best thing is to enjoy the creator if they put out content that you enjoy but take it with a grain of salt as one's preferences can be way different. I'm thinking of Elyse Meyers who does great book review/reactions videos that I enjoy a lot; yet I have not liked any of the books that she's loved. I still enjoy her thoughts on the books though. Remember it is your money and your time so use it wisely.
Im a writer and a reader, not really good at either, but I understand the sort of irritation that comes when people read a book such as a book I personally have beef with "A little life" and swear that it is the greatest piece of literature they have ever read. I also feel this way with a lot of Colleen Hoover, and while on the same topic, I think It ends with us fits well with what the first tiktoker was talking about. It is not typically advertised as a book about DV, It is marketed as a romance book, most of the tiktokers Ive seen treat it as if it is a simple romcom, as if the DV is just another trope. In instances like these, reading for entertainment (although not immpossible) completely steam rolls through the serious topics the books are centered around. This whole idea can lead into my opinions on dark romance but I'll spare you.
yes but the ones talking about “it ends with us” not being a romance are readers, while publishing and movie makers still try to package it as cute romance even though they have seen endless backlash
I take the metro to work, and read during my commute. I have read literature and "light" reading during my ride, usually surrounded by people with a codependent relationship with their smartphones. There has always been garbage for turning the brain off (is that even possible?), but great books always last. May not bother with Booktok now... 📚
I love booktube for book recommendations, though yall have steered me wrong a few times like wtf is sharp objects by gillian flynn.. she deserves jail for that book 😭
Love your take! I feel that there is a lot of issues in the booktok community and any online book spaces (and other spaces on social media too; I notice this in the Metal community). There is a lot of gatekeeping, and an inability to handle different opinions. I have struggled to find fantasy books with romance that do not have spice (if they are new books) and have DNF'd more books in the last two years then I have before. I find the quality of very popular books on booktok (a lot of the time, but not all the time) are not the best, at least to me as an undergraduate with a Bachelors (so, I know things, but I could know much more). Fourth Wing is one of the notable popular books that I didn't enjoy reading--- for one, the writing, specifically the dialogue, was quite poor (and some other issues, but I didn't finish it so I don't know if it improved as the story continued). And I am glad people enjoyed Fourth Wing and other books like it, I want to take note of that; I have friends who really liked this book, and I'm glad they liked it. I couldn't finish it (probably because I am a a writer). I do know that that the book community will, for the most part, be ok... there will always be people who want to write well written books that I know I will enjoy and those who strive to write books that one can turn their brain off for, and both kinds of books are valid. I feel the issue is that the opinions of both sides is being attacked instead of understood; those who read for fun, the critics, and those who are both-- and the Publishing Industry's decisions from here on out; what will THEY do? How will THEY chose what books are published through them? The bright side is there is always self publishing, and there are amazing books that have been self published--- such as the Sword of Kaigen (sp?). And there are publishers that very much value the quality of their books before publishing them. The biggest publisher publishing books that are poorly edited if at all, is Red Tower Publishers, probably choosing these books to make a quick buck (may not be true, but a solid guess based on what they have released).
Supriseingly I don't think there's anything wrong with using tropes to recommend a book series, although sometimes depending on how's its done, can be misleading
I read for entertainment. I have a full-time job with kids, so I use audible to get my reading. Once done reading/hearing a book, I also check on youtube if someone has done literary analysis of the book to see if I missed or caught on to those themes as well. For me it's easier to consume a book this wat.
interesting, thank you for sharing! i feel like we are all so different in our reading habits, the same way our life circumstances are completely different too
And this is exactly why reading should never have become a hobby to get clout off, like wow people can read and own books… and? Unlike most of these people I’ve actually read since I was 3, got relentlessly bullied for it growing up cos no one wanted to read it wasn’t cool and yet I read religiously, everyday and only now cos of clout chasing on TikTok and instagram has this happened, it really speaks volumes that people are reading to say they read and not because they enjoy reading. Take away a lot of peoples socials and a lot of their “hobbies” will disappear I promise
it's so clear that what happened to publishing is that people who were bullying us for reading got into the space and made it theirs by pushing really bad, easy to read books
I think one of the main issues is that we dont talk about the lines between 1. Books that are good to read even if they don't entertain YOU, be it a "classic", non fiction, textbooks etc. 2. books that are entertaining and have little to no quality to them, pure smut, trope based, problematic themes (sarah j maas) 3. Books that are entertaining to alot of people and also have great themes, educational qualities, cultural relevance etc. LotR, hunger games etc. I have read books in all of these categories and I think that's good, just like how a person can watch MI5 and dead poets society and enjoy both of them. But the movies are not for the same purpose.
So in response to the clip from Nicoleyorkcreates I would say the same people who cry about “let us enjoy things” are the same ones who whine when a book isn’t as diverse as they want and want it to cancel authors who don’t have certain themes in their books. So do the just want to be entertained or are they actually wanting more diverse books with social commentary woven in because in my head I hear Peter Griffin saying “ well which one is it?”
I think the main problem with that Tiktok you're reacting to is, that Tiktoker is equating a *lack* of intellectualism with *anti*-intellectualism, and being gets very defensive about it as an intellectual reader. I agree with you, that both approaches can and should be allowed to exist side by side. Not all content is aimed at all audiences. If someone is upset about not being served the content they seek, it's either that indeed, they are on the wrong platform, or the fault of the algorithm. But never the fault of the creators who are making content with a different target audience in mind, attacking them is not right.
Here’s my thing, I’m taking a memory from a Highschool honors English course please bear with me. There was a point when we were going to study Romeo and Juliet (the original Shakespeare play (just wanted to clairify)) and a kid in my class was trying to get my teacher to change it because it was “too hard”. I’m not going to act like anything Shakespeare has ever written is point blank to the point and simple, it’s not. But it’s not difficult. If you take the context of some of the words it’s not hard to decipher. There are by far more confusing and complex pieces of literature out there. (God help him if he ever studies that in college.) It’s perfectly ok to not like Shakespeare it’s really not for everyone but his plays are also extremely important from both a linguistics and literary perspective. You can turn your brain off and read, that’s great but also we shouldn’t be downplaying the importance of certain pieces of literature. You can also analyze and interpret books all day long that’s also great but don’t expect everyone to do that. If you’re going to read a book with deep themes and plots please expect that more people are going to be analyzing those books instead of just saying “yeah that was good I liked xyz”. And if you’re going to read a more lighthearted, “read for fun” book don’t expect people to be analyzing every little detail. That’s it thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
we just learned this in our eapp subject but there's two types of reading: intensive and extensive. intensive if for analysis, evaluating, and engaging with the literary in deptth, extensive on the other hand, is reading casually and a comfortable level- it's for leisure. now the thing with extensive reading is, despite the fact that you are reading causally, you still use your brain, you still engage with it in a non-shallow way. turning your brain off when reading is something i believe is dangerous but otherwise, extensive reading is a thing and not a problem at all.
I disagree about criticism needing to be constructive. As a reader I am allowed to dislike a book and say just that without trying to make it better. If I order a dish at a restaurant and don’t like it, I am not going to call the chef and ask them to add spices or change anything. I also don’t need to insult them either. But we can totally discuss our thoughts and feelings on any thing including books.
TikTok does not promote anti-intellectualism. Anti-intellectualism is a defined ideology with a history and a fair amount of intellectual sophistication behind it. TikTok is a trivialization engine: it prioritizes short, quippy, atomic content and consequently has incentives almost diametrically opposed to the demands that literature makes on a reader. Trying to combine the two and consume them is the mental equivalent of trying to drink brackish water. It will poison you. It's not valuable as a introduction to anything.
My issue is not with the content of the books bit more the sheere number of them and the weird idea that you must read all of them in a short amount of time. There's nothing wrong with a book haul as long as it's an irregular thing. And you don't have to manage to read a book a day or whatever. Reading and book buying aren't competitions. Also. There's nothing wrong with a pretty book. I have some really pretty books that I only really picked up for the prettiness and the content matter was secondary (I still made sure it was content I was interested in). But the issue is when you get 5 copies of the exact same story in different covers and not because the previous 4 copies fell apart from being handled frequently.
That video in the middle hit the point exactly, i think. I spent most of highschool only reading manga and I only started reading books with written paragraphs instead of drawings again when I wanted to find out what happened next in a manga adapted from a light novel, so I started reading that and now here I am managing to actually find books I line and read them again! (And fuck, some of them are on the list my GCSE English teacher told me I should read. It's hardly most of the list but that was a list I hated with a burning passion and now I'm reading a few books that were on it!) And I don't really analyse those books I read much. (I mean, I do a little bit but honestly I spend more time analysing the characters and politics in the One Piece manga in the name of writing fanfiction and getting pissed off at dracula adaptations on tumblr (dracula adaptations just treat the characters so horribly its not fair. Lucy isnt a slut and jonathan isnt evil and the fact that its supposed intellectuals that originally started those readings of the characters really pisses me off more than anything) than I do any serious literary analysis.
there are many valid points made but i do think the example used of say someone recommending the poppy war as a book with a strong female protagonist instead of say a deep war saga that explores those traumas etc was a bit... of an overreaction? ever since people started to read books, they would ask "if i liked x what else should i read? can you recommend me something like y? i enjoyed z aspect of this book, are there others with that?" and to me that is a very valid form of book recommendation. if someone liked the hunger games, i think they'd enjoy the poppy war. both of these have a strong female protagonist at its center. these aren't false statements and i don't think the brevity of the recommendations necessarily dismisses the years of hard work that went into those books nor does it take away from the serious topics. other readers have their own responsibility to read a blurb, read a chapter, decide how they're going to interact with the book and in my opinion it's not necessarily down to the initial person who recommended or reviewed. however - i think there should be a big difference between reviews by publications, reviews by readers, and ultimately the marketing done by the author and publishers and i think this final one has been blurring the lines the most to where i'm peeved. when i open a review by a publication, i believe the focus should be on a deeper analysis with the personal enjoyment as an afterthought (and that to me depends on how prolific the author of the review is). i think anyone who wants to fall into a more professional sphere with a blog or longform video reviews on say booktube fall in the middle. when i open goodreads on the other hand, i don't have a treshold that a reviewer needs to meet; it's for themselves first then other readers, and it's on you to toggle around and realize if you might want to read it - but even if it's just a star rating or a few words, it doesn't undermine anyone's work or any serious topics it deals with. these are readers. THAT BEING SAID - the marketing changing towards prioritizing buzzwords to the point where it's ONLY about buzzwords (like hearing enemies-to-lovers in a three sentence pitch for a book or in the blurb is one thing - marketing your book with only the cover and buzzwords of tropes around it is another, and that difference is what irks me because now everything is the latter) to me is not what we should be allowing authors and publishers to do. you should go get the buzzwords from other readers who read the book, not the publisher marketing their latest release with nothing more than "friends to lovers only one bed she fell first he fell harder blah blah blah". WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHY WOULD I PICK UP THIS BOOKS JUST FOR THAT? tropes have always been a tool for recommendation and yes cliches are cliches for a reason. however, the fanfiction tagging system being implemented to published books should not be accepted and it shouldn't work - they work on ao3 because i already KNOW the characters i want to see in those situations. what good is a book that's only an amalgamation of tropes with zero character to speak of? are they actually fleshed out or just conforming to whatever you need to fit as many tropes? i think that's more of an issue than ribbing off other creators for how they choose to review, read, or recommend. social media is for you to cater - find the reviews to match your style. people think about the algorithm too much imo
Rachel Oates has a 3hr long in-depth video going through the book It Ends With Us chapter by chapter and she shares on screen long excerpts/passages from the book and I’m reading the direct quotes from the book and it absolutely baffles me how anyone can say that book does not romanticize abuse when it absolutely DOES. Just because the main character eventually leaves her abuser in the end, does NOT mean the abuse wasn’t romanticized in the beginning. And before anyone says, “we’re seeing it from the survivor’s POV, so that’s why it shows it as romantic in the beginning cause she loves him and is willing to make excuses for him. No one wants to believe the person they love is an abuser,” just stop. He wasn’t this nice, sweet guy who later showed his true colors and became abusive after they’ve been together for a while. That would’ve been understandable and I wouldn’t have considered that as romanticizing abuse. But that’s not what happened. He showed major red flags and was abusive from the very beginning BEFORE they even entered a relationship together. From their very first interaction we see that he’s got anger issues and he doesn’t know how to respect people’s boundaries or ask for consent. The ONLY reason Lily has to like him at this point is because he’s hot. Guarantee you if she didn’t find him attractive she would’ve picked up on all the red flags and been creeped out by him from the beginning. Also, do people forget he literally SA’d her in the beginning? How is this romantic? How the hell does anyone fall in love with a guy like this? Fall in lust, sure, cause it’s clear she’s attracted to him, but love? What’s to love about a man who doesn’t respect your boundaries, refuses to listen when you tell him no, and begs, coerce, & manipulates you into having sex with him? Call me crazy, but I don’t find that attractive or romantic in the least bit. And the fact that Lily still enters a relationship and MARRIES him after all this, with all the red flags waving right in her face from their first interaction before she even “falls in love” with him (if you can even call it that, I don’t think Lily even knows what love is), how is that NOT romanticizing abuse?
Thank you for making this video and putting it into words. Women have always been reading Harlequin romance novels and I think there's no shame in that. And maybe i just don't know what men read, but i always see romance novels aimed at women being called anti-intellectual which makes me sad and frustrated
I will never understand why so many women think that saying smut isn’t intellectual is somehow hating on women just because that’s the main audience of it. It couldn’t possibly be because reading erotica is simply not intellectual in the same way that watching pr0n isn’t intellectual.
I think its kind of ridiculous to expect people to put in a bunch of work into their fun hobby even if i read jane eyre am i gonna write an essay after to talk about the themes of the story and the nuance? (Gods im starting to hate that word) no am i going to watch the movie and fangirl most likely you can take fun books and analyze them i recently read the first book in the shopaholic series and i had to ignore the fact that i kept thinking about how the main character takes after her mother and learned her problem through her or has an actual problem and addiction how you can easily tell she's become depressed and is losing pleasure in even the addiction she has because of the hole she dug herself i did however watch the movie afterwards and complain about every single discrepancy in the story (they made her best friend marry her cousin im still mad) so fun turn off brain books or not both can either be read for pleasure (or dare i say fun) and analysis
Personally I think there’s a lot of underlying sexism in the criticism of short form bookish content. It doesn’t escape my notice that the corner of booktok that is getting so much hate is dominated by young women who read genre fiction.
O also think that a lot of creator and booktok itself shield itself from any criticism by saying oh your criticising this women lead thing it must be sexism and misogyny and it end up , this justification , being misogyny since to be taken seriously is to be criticised Booktok issues are mostly overlook , and fast fashion litteratture just make thing worse ,
Because most of the books that young women read are really bad and are mostly the most narcissistic, melodramatic, and mediocre wish fulfillment you can imagine. The male equivalent of this is the absolute loser that gets Isekaied into a game/fantasy world, where he just has huge powers and a harem of wifus with little to no effort whatsoever. No one respects either of those. But boys barely read, so you see most of the criticism in places that talk about animation and games.
Given that women are also the ones disproportionately giving criticism of these books too I doubt sexism has much to do with it. Anime is largely targeted at young men. Does that make "Mother's Basement" a misandrist when he calls Sword Art Online terrible? No, if there's a sexist element here, it's small next to intrasexual competition. I know women like to pretend they don't compete with one another, but you do. It's actually kind of interesting.
As always, you create such great quality content! I hope your channel continues to grow and thrive. I also agree. When I saw that TikTok, I immediately felt the same way you did. On both sides, there are parts of the anti-intellectualism I agree with and other parts I don’t. Thanks for also being so honest and insightful! You made great points I hadn’t considered.
43% of fourth graders in the U.S. scored at or above a proficiency level in reading, and for marginalized communities the numbers are much worse. Getting engaged readers so they can become more proficient and skillful readers is what anyone should want to encourage. Not the gatekeeping and bashing of other readers. I’d suggest to everyone watch the documentary “The Right to Read.” Pick up Mike Selby’s book “Freedom Libraries.” Read about anti-literacy laws around the world past and present.
honestly my biggest problem with booktok is how it's reduced to "spice lovers", "anti-intellectuals", etc. booktok has grown so much that it's become really more of a network of different kinds of communities. the content creators i follow on booktok aren't the kinds of people that make people think "omg booktok is so unhinged". i think outsiders don't realize just how big and varied a community it is, and there are some people giving the whole community a bad name
Pish posh. When I was in university we studied Matthew Arnold, who was an old de@d yt dude. He was moaning and hand wringing about the death of culture in the 1700s. Oh NOES! It hasn’t gone anywhere. There will always be, as you say, a mix of people of different levels. Some people like the analysis, some people like to read for pleasure. As a BookTuber myself, what is most important to me is that people pick up books and read. Period.
I've just intuitively avoided Simon/Schuster's queen or king of darkness and something, not because I know, but because goodreads paid trolls seem to be obsessed with it. But hey, I'm an old man who was born in the year 30 BW (Before the Web)
Something I get confused by in regards to Booktok is the Song of Ice and Fire books by George Martin. For a community that seems deeply obsessed with smut, power dynamics and abuse, I feel like they reject Martin's work for those exact things. That the books are too violent, there's too much abusive relationships. But then their reading list is "self insert gets railed by quintuplet werewolves who seem to really like leaving bruises on her"
Tome, saying that recommending books by the tropes present on them is wrong is akin to saying that movie trailers reduce the movie to a few scenes that happened on it. It's just marketing. The idea is to get more people to read the book. You choose whether to listen to those recommendations or not, the same way you choose whether to watch a movie based on the trailer.
@@rayareadzzzz I really don't think it is. A movie trailer is put out by the studio from existing, in-production material that's being made because of previous successes in that genre/niche. As I understand Celine's argument, she is upset that simplistic recommendation driving out more critical, analytical engagement from online spaces and publishers increasingly basing their publishing strategies on those online spaces leads to both anti-intellectualism and poorer books. The movie equivalent would be if studios based their releases around whichever of those fan-made, AI trailers went most viral on YT. (In fact, equivalent things have already happened: we got Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, Snakes on a Plane and the rerelease of Morbius from it.) The question is really: what signals are being sent to producers about the state of the market? If online book discussion is overwhelmingly signalling to publishers that readers are only interested in tropes, then that is all publishers will put out. And it is not true that authors will remain free to write other things: in the SFF space, we can already see authors putting out poorly conceived sequels to successful stand-alones because the publishers want series. It's also not necessarily true that BookTube at least, if not BookTok, has to be dominated by trope discussion. YT is full of detailed reviews and analyses of film, from arthouse to blockbusters. I recently watched a 10+ minute analysis on the use of red and blue in a Zendaya movie. Maybe it's easier for film enthusiasts to do that sort of thing on YT because film is so much more visual. But if book publishers are going to get their market signals from online discussion, is it so bad to wish that discussion were less dominated by tropes?
The TikTok that sparked this is giving colonial gatekeeping. Homegirl literally uses the word “correct” to describe the only way *she* thinks analysis and recommendations should happen.
Arguments like that confirm that society is well on the road to Idiocracy. Pretty soon, reading itself will be criticized, and ALSO just like the movie, most public communication was made in the form of pictographs, as used in road signs and crosswalks.
In hearing yoru comment starting at 17:54 about why reading isn't seen the same way as other hobbies where different skill levels are expected when looking at the communities that surround it and I think it has to do with the assumption that because people are taught how to read and write throughout school, there's no excuse for not being "able to do what I can with reading" that I've encountered while being on the fringes of book communities online - which of course doesn't take in account of reading disabilities, mental illnesses that might deteriate skills in not using them as much as you once did or even the fact that in a lot of areas, people are just passed through the schooling system due to a mulitude of reasons including how teachers often can't pay attention to one or two kids struggling when they have a whole classroom to look after. There's also the assumption that gets reinforced in fiction that if you are a reader then you are assumed to be smart or "know a lot of things" just because you have read a lot without people asking what it is that you're reading. Because if you're reading then it must be something of importance and not something that could be seen as entertainment. But that's my thoughts on what I've observed online since getting myself back into reading since 2020 and going to college at the same time where I was gaining skills of reading texts and having to discuss them for my major in history. (By the way, just found you and I like how you talk about things to do with the book community! Definitely gonna watch more videos from you! :D)
I think having a culture of over consumption is why we have a rise of anti-intellectulism. You dont give yourself time to reflect when youre trying to get through as many books as humanly possible
hmm interesting!
Yup this is it
Valid but reading quickly or reading a lot of books is not always about consumerism. It can be done by borrowing books. Some just like to read a lot. And not everyone needs to go deep into thought after each and every read. That will depend on the person and their reading comprehension ability. Some people can think about a text while reading it and even remember it for a very long time after. Crazy right?!
@@autumnrose_noseinabook I was talking about the cultural expectations to read a lot of books and how it pushes people to read with the goal of finishing as many books as possible. This is pushed by algorithms because booktok creators need to constantly push out new content and are getting sent loads of books, which then sells the ideal reading style to be reading as many books as possible. This means people care less about what they're reading, if what they're reading is good or if they even liked it that much.
@@autumnrose_noseinabookOkay, but it’s very clear that booktok is all about consumerism, and not about actually reading and learning / gaining something from the book. It’s just a bunch of gooners flicking the bean.
My primary concern with encouraging the "turn off your brain" type of reading is what that tells publishers. If they see a wave of readers who identify books based on checklists of tropes and don't particularly what makes an individual book unique, they are not going to look for authors who focus on new ideas and write independently of said checklists. It's completely fine that some people just want to coast through stories with familiar events and archetypes without needing to look too deeply into it. I consume media like that sometimes too. But I don't want that to be all reading is, and I don't want people to incorrectly think that's all it is either.
I mean, that's just the state of publishing though, and it always has been. Divergent only got put on the shelves because publishers were capitalising on its similarities to the Hunger Games. The Vampire Diaries only became the (chaotic as hell) icon that it is because publishers and producers wanted to cash in on the success of supernatural romance tropes after Twilight. Replicating the tropes that are common to a genre readers seem to particularly like, regardless of the reasons, is something that the publishing industry will always do regardless of how "intellectual" the books are. They do not and have frankly never looked for authors that do not meet a checklist of what they think readers want.
This has quite literally always been true of publishing, which has always consisted principally of trope-y mass market genre fiction. If your parents' and grandparents' harlequin romance and serialized star trek novels didn't kill "literary" publishing, then neither will trope-y romance
than go read books that aren't like that, problem solved, there will still be plenty of books that aren't easy to read.
@@Parrot5884we got soooooooo much subpar vampire fiction bc of the success of Anne Rice’s books! For every Dune and ASOIAF there were/are copycats that never quite hit the mark and then were forgotten by time. Publishers always have tried to cash in but the standouts tend to stay in the public consciousness
Mc Donald's also has not gotten rid of all decent restaurants. It's just a different taste. People who never would have picked up a book now do. Good on them. In a few yes they might want to try out something with a bit more substance.
The fact that when the "very demure, very mindful" trend gained traction and people came out in DROVES admitting they've never heard the word "demure" should be red flag enough.
hahahha as a non native speaker i am constantly surprised that natives don’t know words like “maim” or idk “surmise”
I was floored when I noticed this. I also found it kind of funny at one point, because I was watching a video where someone said "demure isn't even a real word" (huh???), then later I was reading a book and it used that word in it.
(In response to Celine's video) I don't agree with the idea that easy marketing gimmicks is what is ruining publishing. Publishers are ruining publishing by deliberately putting out bad products. They've been snapping up marginally successful self-published works (especially if tik tok famous) for a quick buck but rather than editing it properly and investing into that author... they're putting it in print and in bookstores as literal unedited garbage. Then the tik tok stans of that book screech at people for pointing out it's a poorly written book and accuse them of being snobbish. Add in that people will now actually accuse someone of ableism for wanting a book that is edited due to culture politics and it's just a perfect storm for lowering the bar.
EXACTLY
Ableism? ABLEISM-
Let’s all just go to another planet where booktok people and their ilk are banned, we can all read in peace
That's a company's job: to sell at any cost, and they definitely sell if they stick to customers' preferences
THIS!!! So many indie books are getting picked up, which is great, but that doesn’t mean those indies don’t need to be reviewed and possibly revised if needed. I love a lot of indie books, but many were badly edited.
@@Lectoracitónicaso maybe then we should stop thinking of culture as a consumable product…and more as culture. Maybe we should rethink a system that puts profit over everything else, Idk.
My only gripe is how the worst lazy written books that read like bad fanfictions, have bad plots, flat characters and are just full of smut are the ones that are more famous and are considered good quality and are everywhere. I just can't trust goodreads for a good book because books will say 5 stars and then they are just awful. Usually Young adult, so I now just avoid anything that says Young adult
This isn’t new, especially for the young adult genre though. For example, back in the early 2000s, Twilight was the biggest YA series, and even the people who like it admit it’s not very good. I feel like we forget through the lens of nostalgia that bad books have always existed and will always exist. The ones that stand the test of time will eventually become classics, but we really don’t have any more bad quality literature now than we ever have, percentage wise.
@@alexjones8843 Yes, in part thats right. But now with how social media works and the work of influencers, overconsumerism, and how trends affect publishing I feel that theres more and more of those books. I didnt like twilight when I was 14, I already found it cringey and bad and I dis read the first book to dee what the hype was about. So maybe its me too
@@loati94 I disagree, I don’t see any more bad literature being turned out than before. Again, you have to take away that nostalgic lens, people have been saying there’s no good literature being published anymore and that it’s the death of literature as we know it for absolutely forever. It’s a trend and trends die, and literature continues to endure. Just be more choosey with what you actually purchase, publisher won’t publish what won’t sell, period.
@@alexjones8843 but the thing is, Twilight was written better than Fourth Wing and Powerless (those are meant for older adults). I think the overall book quality has gone down. Sure, Twilight was bad, but it was WRITTEN decent. Went through an editor. Back in high school, all the YA books I've read are just simply BETTER than the popular ones nowadays which is saying something.
@@queenb2450 I highly disagree. Twilight is awfully paced, the dialogue is incredibly stiff, and the amount of things thrown at the wall for the sake of plot convenience is insane. Again, you're seeing it through the lens of nostalgia.
Let's slow down here. Why does there have to be a dichotomy between reading purely for escapism and reading purely for intellectual engagement? Why can't you do both? Why can't the same individual sometimes be in the mood to learn something, and sometimes be in the mood to hide from the world with a comfort read? It seems like the usual discourse sets up a conflict between supposedly pretentious readers, and supposedly lazy readers, when one person can contain multitudes. I know this is a taboo thing to say, but I firmly believe that we as readers have a responsibility to read for education. Yes, that may sometimes means reading things that aren't fun because we're adults who are capable of doing things that are necessary but not entertaining. It won't kill us. However, that doesn't mean your reading should be pure misery. I know full well that reading about the terrible realities of life can put me into a depression, and probably you as well. You also need to read for fun. I will not judge you for participating in fun reading events. This is a both/and situation.
well said
Right! There can be a morning and an afternoon...
I've started reading 2 books at a time, I read an easy enjoyable read and usually listen to an audiobook for a more difficult read (I'm dyslexic so listening helps my comprehension but I ended up buying the secret history because I wanted to read it while at work)
I think when I talk to some people, it's really obvious that they never got past their YA level of reading. I do often read YA and there is nothing wrong with enjoying easy reads. But you should try to challenge yourself sometimes. My main push, tbh was that I didn't relate to 15-18 year olds anymore. I'm 23, I kinda want books about feeling lost and having to make decisions for yourself.
YES!
@@vainpiers Good for you. That sounds like a good rhythm for reading. Right now I've got a fantasy series going, but I'm getting curious about the 1960-1970s, so I'm just starting a history of rock and roll.
I agree with Nicole McKeon.
But I do get the frustration if you're a person who loves to read for enjoyment, but can't read with their brain switched off. The market is _flooded_ with books without depth, research and they use Tell don't Show too often.
Stories about self-insert characters, Mary Sues. Soo special, without ever delivering a reason why. What for. Groundless banter. "The misunderstanding". Love Interests that don't even pass as characters, they are objects. Dudes who are hot af, dangerous, possibly a murderer and for an incomprehensible reason into Mary Sue. They feel like pr0n that accidentally has hastily written scenes in between and way too many hidden cluster B personality disorder traits to feel comfortable while reading. And no love, frankly, mainly lust.
Even publishers main these types of books now. I buy used books that are ~ 15 - 20 years old, because they are likely less shallow as modern books. The same is going on with TV shows and movies. There's very little content for those who can't switch their brains off. Genuine emotions get replaced with lust and appearance. That's not enough.
Soo im studying publishing in college, and im doing graphic design as a subject.
What the girl said was: "Why are there so many words on the page?" which makes perfect sense. Sometimes when the typography is too small it gets cloudy and it is uncomfortable to read. She never complained about the amount of words, she complained about the amount of words per page, because it was too small.
There is a huge deal for us to take that into consideration when preparing a book for printing, sooo as for the videos i've seen of people criticizing her is funny how readers don´t understan what she meant...maybe reading comprehension is not enough when it comes to people speaking. 😂😂😂😂
honestly i immediately understood that she just meant the font itself, but just couldn’t come up with the right word (cause that happens to me a lot - i am gonna construct the longest sentence ever when i could have just used one single word 😂)
but people will use anything these days to justify them saying “booktok is stupid”
@@rayareadzzzz Absolutely! It's like them being readers doesn´t mean they understand what people mean when they speak like...MY GOD SOME CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT people speaking all lenguajes are hating on her for something she didn´t even say like 🙂🙃
she also isn’t a native english speaker and found the book easier to read once she switched to an e-reader! she literally was talking about the font and people took the least charitable interpretation of that
"Words that do nothing but fill page" is often used as critcism. I'm assuming some of them got both these phrases mixed up.
I, personally, actually prefer a lot of words compact together, reminds me of 1960s and prior books (that I have) with such fonts. But Ik it can be quite difficult to read in a dim lighted room and just not good for eyesight.
I'm dyslexic and if the font is too small I really struggle to seperate the words
I don't see any harm in picking up a book because it contains tropes you tend to enjoy, but I can see how it would be harmful if you refused to pick up books because of a lack of that trope. Some tropes can be really specific (like the only one bed) and if readers are refusing to consider a book because it doesn't contain something that specific, they're probably going to miss out on a lot of books they could enjoy. Even more general tropes can be very different experiences depending on the book and genre. So I only really see harm where it is used to exclude books rather than draw readers in.
As for low quality books, there's always going to be low quality books because plenty of people enjoy "bad" books. Editors and agents enjoy "bad" books too--it's not always a gimmick.
I believe what really ruining booktook is lack of respect for others opinions. Sure some opinions aren't valid eg.racist or sexist. But I cannot stand people who choose to threatening or bullying everyone who disagree with them. Or who dislike character they like or like the same character but are critical about their behaviour. And literature as a whole? What really ruining it are greedy publicist who choose to publish everything without proper editing and misinforming about book genres. Most of so called ,,dark romance" are thrillers or porn, becuse they are ridden with abuse and poorly written sex scenes.
100%
i also think this lack of respect and failure to communicate is prevalent everywhere not just on booktok
try voicing ANY criticism about anyone’s music idol you’ll be eaten alive even if you yourself are a fan of said artist
TRUE! if someone shares their feelings online, people automatically find it an attack on them or on something else, when its simply an opinion and you could just say "oh, cool. I disagree, but I respect your opinion." I would love if we had a simple trend like "dumure, cutesy" to convey this issue on social media in a simple way that people with thick skulls can understand.
IMHO.. I think social media is slowly becoming a bully’s playground. Especially, in spaces with a cult following. I was shocked at how brutal the book community is the damage it’s doing to people. I was in the Candle and Body care community and they would bully each other. Same way it was in the couponing community, the crochet community, and even the Taco Bell community on Reddit gets straight brutal at times. It’s not an isolated community issue, it’s more of a toxic social media issue.
It's the gatekeepers and the newbies fighting. The gatekeeper takes his/her preferred stand, and no one, not even the gates of Heaven, will move them. And you better fall in line as well. The gaming community has some real nuts on both sides. Some people forget that not everyone has the same tastes, nor do we need to beat others over the head with our own beliefs.
people are forced to interact with people they don’t align with bc we don’t use forums anymore and are all in one place and a lot of people clearly don’t know how to handle that
@@charissawilkinson9270 something I like to call, "yes sir-ism" was prevalent for a long time on socials (also known as cancel culture), where the mintue you speak something not popular and not appealing to most, that's the mintue you get cancelled. That's something everyone's getting tired of and pushing back but it still somehow ends up in the game of which side is right and which wrong, rarely in the the greys.
P.S.- if you want to correct me or put up an argument, please do it with some respect with an explanation of why I'm wrong about (so we all can learn).
I believe in the "everyone should read what they want" manifesto, but Celine does make a good point. At the same time, despite bad books always existing, it seems to me that over the years since BookTok became a thing it became worse and worse and it frustrates a lot of readers that have been reading since childhood/teenage years and already had Wattpad and fanfiction phases. Some of these popular books really do feel like that and the fact that some of them are actually published fanfiction is still baffling to me.
I'm not going to blame new readers exactly, but mostly publishing houses and agents because maybe some creators will put out some great reviews on TikTok where they explain why the book is good/bad etc, but on the other side you'll have the creators that will give you recs based on tropes and aesthetics and will review the book based on how it made them feel (which says nothing about the quality of it). We already know to which one the publishing house will listen to and will want on their side. Definitely not the creator who makes valid points about a book because they need sales. Everything became about sales and the marketability of a book and the quality is quickly dropping. What they don't realize is that even the creators that they're profiting of off will develop a certain taste and eventually will stop buying and reading "trashy" books (of course these books are still needed because it generates money to other books to be published etc, but still).
I became extremely selective with the books I buy and read specifically because of this and I take reviews on both BookTok and Bookstagram with a grain of salt even from people who have a similar taste to mine. My most read genres are romance, fantasy and lit fiction and let me tell you that what passes as fantasy nowadays, people would've had a field day with in 2012 compared to how it is now. I just feel like we should demand better and we're entitled to since we're actually paying for what's essentially entertainment, no matter the genre.
All of the fiction that booktok latches on to belongs to genres and "quality levels", if we want to be elitist about the value of the written word, that have always existed in publishing. It's just that booktok makes you aware of what other people are reading. It makes it seem like critics are fine with people reading fluffy bodice rippers or splatterpunk or any of the other genres getting hate (after all they never cared before), they just want people to treat it like a dirty little secret. Like they're just mad that someone is publicly enjoying something that they personally don't enjoy. It's the same contrarian energy as someone who hates Taylor Swift just because she's popular. I don't like her music either, but I'd never say her fans are "anti-intellectual" or "what's wrong with society". I'm just happy they're happy
The publicity is mostly what the entertainment publisher care about. In movie advance screening, they gave more tickets to KOL or influencer more than media. Simply for the wider reach. The review quality wise? Well...
While giving a recommendation with just how the books made them feel doesn’t say anything about what the book is about. Sometimes I do enjoy getting to know about a book based on that. Luckily right now we are able to look it up ourselves and see if it sounds like something we liked. I do also enjoy hearing someone else’s more in depth feedback about books.
my one wish for the book community (particularly tiktok but other social media as well) is for people to not think there is a "correct" way to engage with books (i.e. their way, their preference) and deem all others invalid. Both ends of the spectrum are annoying to me when they believe that other people are doing it wrong when reading is such a subjective and personal experience
yes yes yes ❤️
A recommendation is not an analysis. Her sentiment is in the right place but her example doesn't hold. Her resentment for the publishing industry--rather her criticism--is correct.
exactly my thoughts
Anti-intellectualism in art and entertainment is everywhere no matter what the medium. This attitude of insecurity and incuriosity is also prevalent in the film space. People are so fragile about their consumption habits anything remotely outside of their narrow lens is attacked as "pretentious." For example, Marvel fans are the WORST with this. They are the most fragile and nasty fandom out there. Even over Star Wars imo. The Star War fandom is INSANE, don't get me wrong. But the Marvel fanbase has a different shade in that they are sore winners. VERY SORE winners. Nobody can even levy the most mild and fair criticisms of a new Marvel thing without the fanbase spiraling into the most hateful, aggressive, and antagonistic vitriol you've ever seen.
This reactionary fragility is happening right now as I type this to Jenna Ortega, who just shared her favorite films while on the press tour for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. She listed 5 rather well-known, acclaimed films as her favorites. But because they all aren't like, common American blockbusters from the past 15 years she's being attacked as "pretentious."
No. Your willful incuriosity does not make someone pretentious. Just because you never heard of a film doesn't mean those who have are high-minded snobs. How about instead of feeling attacked and insecure about someone talking about films or books you never heard of, you take this as an opportunity to expand your horizons and try new things!? Crazy thought, right!
Its like unless it has been irony poisoned and meme'd and consumed by the homogeny of internet culture, it doesn't exist to these people.
Writer here. I obviously can't speak for all authors, but I certainly wouldn't see someone talking about my work via buzz words and tropes as reducing it. Especially on a platform like TikTok which, like you said, is meant for shorter content. I would still be over the moon about an actual literary analysis, of course, but the fact that the girl you showed ranting in the beginning seems to think that writers would just stop being passionate and only ever chasing trends because people online are pointing out tropes they like in our work is frankly absurd. I will write until my dying days, I will write well, and I will do it in a gutter if I have to. It's why I was born, and however deeply other people might engage with my work is their own business. It does not minimize my work, and frankly, I'd just be happy someone is spreading word about it at all, even if what is said is "enemies to lovers" and nothing more.
same I agree. When she said they called her pretentious I was like well...if the shoe fits.
I don't think that's what the girl in the beginning was saying. I think she meant if you reduce books to "enemies to lovers" and EVERYONE reads only that, then good books will stop being published because they don't have that specific element. For example, an awful, incoherent and bad written book with "enemies to lovers" in it will be published but not a great book without it.
I agree with absolutely everything, but i do agree with some other points the tiktok creator made, like making a certain trope or key word the only thing that drives people to read can be damaging, to writers and to us as readers, cuz it does have impact in the books we ultimately have access to. I do enjoy reading both for entertainment and to analyze and get knowledge, I think we could have both, but a VERY BIG, HUGE PART of the books that get published, lots of promo, that occupy the ‘favorites’ library shelfs are mediocre books that seem to be put together by a marketing team just to sell a lot, its okay if people enjoy them, but we also need well written books that feed our minds, because a book can be both entertaining and well put together and teach you things, but lots of artist that do dedicate themselves to crafting a book with mastery and passion often get discouraged to put their work out because they cant get it to sell, publishers often prioritize these tropekestein monster books that give them millions.
yeah i totally agree with this too, just waiting for the day we’ll be directing our frustration at those publishers instead of fighting among ourselves every couple of months
The assumption that if one didn’t exist people would just read the other is wild. The average Sarah J Maas reader isn’t going to turn around and pick up Proust if her books disappeared from the world tomorrow. They’re looking for a totally different reading experience!
Exactly!
I've tried to give Jane Austin and Shakespeare a go because everyone around me was going on about how perfect those books are. But to me, they aren't.
Closest to classics I get is Lord of the Rings because it scratches that fantasy nerd itch.
People gotta realise there are other genres for a reason. And that there will always be other genres, other reading levels, other writing styles, and other age ranges in books because there are all sorts of readers.
Just because one person absolutely hates YA doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Same for the Classics. Same for genre fiction vs literary fiction.
All of it matters because there will always be readers who want it. And that's what matters most rather than someone's "hot take" or "unpopular [yet somehow always popular] opinion"
There are small communities/channels on youtube that dive into more academically challenging works of literature and if people want this perspective on reading to gain traction and/or be appreciated, they should support channels that contribute to that rather than try to change others.
agree!
That first one sounds like it was just a meme list. Kind of like “my favorite books that have the letter z in the title”, “top 5 books with blue covers”, “best books published the year I was born”, etc. It’s just a gimmick to base a list around, not reducing the author’s work to that thing.
well yes
Whenever I go browse through a bookshop, I see loads of pretty books with colored edging with marketing labels that sum up the tropes..."slow burn", "enemys to lovers" etc. ... People should read whatever they want and I am happy to see people on the train acually READING *yay*. But seems more and more publishers seem to care less about well-written (and I am not saying INTELLECTUAL!) literature, but more about selling special editions with collectors cards and other gimmicks. I have read a few of the popular booktok recommendations. Some of them really got me hooked, but MANY are boring, foreseeable, badly written, with shallow or stupid characters, because manuscripts are chosen by trope, not by how much time authors have spent developing a compelling plot, story arch and their characters. Booktok is a blessing because it brings more people to reading - but it also has an influence on the book publishing market ...and I am not sure it is only positive.
i agree, but also feel like publishing would use anything to drive up their sales, booktok just happens to be the most popular thing rn
My concern is that authors have publicly said that they are adding certain tropes because of the shift of the publishing industry due to booktok. I do not understand why people are so against people suggesting that publishing is changing. Things change in society sometimes, why is it so wrong for us to look at how it is changing?
I think also when it comes to intellectualism is that it can be found in places you wouldn’t expect. I can read a well written, deep book about society and come out…okay, cool. Moving on, acknowledge its depth but don’t feel the drive to go further with it. But then I read a book about a man who has been broken beyond repair, lost in his own sense of loss and loneliness and injustice, going through the last resort he feels he can do in order to find the greater good and do unjustifiable acts to do it. How he and his father figure long to reconnect and not fight, but then are kept as enemies through generational trauma, misunderstandings, and the horrors of war. And this book that has me wanting to do a long drawn out academic essay…is from a mostly unknown Star Wars book published in 2004. Not exactly high literature, but as a reader it can make me talk for hours upon hours of the depth in it. There is a lot of bias in what literature is ‘academic and worthy of study’ and ‘funny little books’ and I feel that can be as big of a problem.
this!!
Can you tell me the name of the book please?
@@hanakesseibi.5b.273 The Star Wars book is called Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. Excellent book if you are a fan of Yoda and/or Count Dooku, or the clone wars era.
@@Shadowclanwarrior246 im going to be completely honest with you and say I've never watched a star wars movie in my life lol but the book description seems interesting, will keep it in mind in case one day i decided to enter that rabbit hole
You can have deep themes set in the fantasy world and the most wish fulfillment garbage devoid of any internal logic in a modern-day city slums.
It is the themes and how they are handled what makes or break a book, not the setting.
Booktok doesn't like reading books, they like reading fanfiction but wrap it up in the "book reader aesthetic".
crazy how celine got death threats for that video
yeah that’s what i am saying, you do not have to agree with her but like death threats??
i fear we have lost the plot 🫠
@@rayareadzzzz yh we have majorly lost the plot. like what happened to having a conversation?
i disagree with her video but that is too far
It may just be a me thing but I feel like readers who read enough cannot really turn off their brain for a book. There is a reason people dislike books for bad writing or harmful messages, because the brain is reacting to the book as you read. Even when you read for entertainment you are always analyzing the work you are consuming.
i kind of agree :)
Nicole McKeon hits the nail on the head. When I was in school I hated reading because I did not like the books I was forced to read, analyze, and write a report on for a grade. I did not truly love reading until Harry Potter came along. Changed my view of reading and it has become my favorite pastime/ hobby/ escape.
i know a lot of people with similar stories!!
As someone raised by a librarian, I know I have a lot of privilege when it comes to educational access. That being said, I think that the idea of "turning off your brain" to read can be low-key dangerous. Maybe i am just jaded by the incredible cultural (& not limited to book tok) upswing in both anti intellectualism and down swing of media literacy lately. I absolutely have books i have read that are for pure entertainment, but I personally can't read books that contain things that perpetuate harmful things like racism/ableism/prejudices, abuse or lack of consent. And while i can give people grace to like things, i think frustration with the popularity of books that promote or at least don't challenge the more harmful cultural issues is legitimate to bring up, and definitely something I struggle to balance.
The first video did conflate that and the fact that there is a totally separate issue of the publishing industry and the lack of editors/sensitivity readers. Some books are legit just straight off wattpad, and while not necessarily bad, also *clearly* not professionally edited. That also often leads to books with racism/prejudices unchecked because of that.. basically, I just feel... exhausted? like I was there when Ao3 was founded (insert Aslan "Don't cite the deep magic" gif here). 😂 I have been through my bad/mediocre fanfic phase, i can't deal with them popping up in a Barnes and Noble 😂😂😂
I get what Celine is saying but it’s honestly absurd that they used “books with a strong female protagonist” as an example that’s supposed to be a bad thing?? Especially for an SFF book?! I’ve been reading SFF since I was a kid and for a while it was really difficult to find any book in that genre with great female characters. Anyone who knows the history of SFF knows that it was male-dominated only until fairly recently. So to act like a list of books with strong female characters is a BAD thing is just incomprehensible to me, someone who literally googled “feminist sci-fi” back in 2015 cause I was so so tired of reading sexist sci-fi. I didn’t care about the literary analysis of books with flat female characters or just no women at all.
Just because there are a lot of diverse options now doesn’t mean there always was.
i see absolutely nothing wrong with that either 🤷🏻♀️
if we go by this logic, all types of list videos e.g. “cozy fall books” or “specific book recommendations” (even here on YT) need to be eradicated and we should only have serious in depth descriptions listing every single aspect of the books we are talking about
my question is why not have both :)
@@rayareadzzzz absolutely! I just wanted to rant about that aspect in particular lol. great video! :)
yeah I think that was one aspect that showed that while she has good intentions was a little out of her depth especially with her knowledge of certain topics feeling very limited to the past few years and kind of showed how young she is
On the other hand, there are characters called a strong female character who are really just assholes with a vagina. It really takes you out of a story if you don't mesh well with the main character. It's a double-edged sword, especially for women, because being a "bitch" does not make you a strong female character it makes you a jerk.
I agree w you but I feel like her specific example is kinda the lynchpin un her argument. Poppy wars is a semi fictionalized recounting of the sino-Japanese war and subsequent genocide. It’s extremely graphic, and while the FMC is powerful and strong, morally grey is a generous way to frame her. Boiling that particular book series down to ✨girl power✨ is reductive at best but dishonest and setting people up for trauma at worst
As someone who grew up reading the classics (Little Women, Crime and Punishment) and recently read Determined: A science of Life without Free Will, is was incredibly refreshing to read The Haunting, a middle school novel🤣anti-intellectualism is absolutely on the rise, but some of us have to read academic literature and technical writing for a living. It was such a relief to read something low effort. Some of us actually exercise our intellect all the time in other ways, and leisurely reading doesn’t have to be a mental exercise too. My concern is that reading is many people’s ONLY form of cognitive exercise. It’s healthy to challenge themselves or consume something impactful and meaningful to society and your development as a person.
I personally don't have anything against reading for fun or for educating oneself. Sometimes you can even find both things in the same book! What I suggest is never closing up to new reading experiences. If you always read for fun, go for it, but that *doesn't mean* you won't enjoy to read with the purpose of learning something. Life brings surprises in many shapes.
I can recommend the shopaholics series for both lol
I def agree with the overall messaging that it is silly for there to be infighting, especially as you pointed out that tiktok is specifically short form content. Since there is limited time, there is going to be limited conversation and I think you're correct to identify that tiktok is not the right platform for in depth analysis of text. I would attribute this more to something along the lines of a post I saw earlier today pointing out how a lot of the tiktok book culture is reminiscent of fanfiction culture, and a lot of the entertainment readers are discovering the joys of fan culture for the first time as grown adults rather than teenagers on a new hype train. Which may explain a lot of the difference between the entertainment readers and analytical readers.
However, I want to push back on the idea of reading "just for fun" or "just for entertainment" is equivalent to not engaging with the text. From what I can infer, it seems to have an underlying connotation of no thoughts, brain empty consumption of plot. The idea that engaging with the text is implicitly something academic or intellectualizing is, to me, patently false. Does it require some education and skill? absolutely! However basic skills in engaging text are taught at every level of language arts in schooling. Even first graders are asked reading comprehension questions- which requires engaging with the text. This is taught so early specifically because it is incredibly important skill to have! You should be engaging with it!
Zoe Bee has a video out recently where she quoted someone (who quoted a book) stating that media analysis is finding out the difference between plot and story. The no thoughts, brain empty approach really just gets you the plot. It doesn't even really expose why you thought the book was entertaining as just explaining why the book was entertaining requires engaging with the text on some level. Just identifying tropes is already engaging with it! While I don't think everyone needs to get analytical and talk about the story/themes of books, not engaging with the text is ultimately no different than doomscrolling. The folks that can point out that they find specific trope entertaining are still engaging with the text.
I guess this is all to say that I'd argue that a lot of the entertainment readers are engaging with the text a lot more than the analytical readers are giving them credit for. And in addition to that, it can also be true that there is something to the idea of expecting the entertainment readers to put a little more effort into the engaging with the text for better understanding of media. Two things can be true!
it’s pure chaos in the publishing world. So many manuals that would have been laughed at years ago are now published best sellers and make the booktok popularity rounds. the two entities feed into each other.
I am a writer, so I engage with books differently. I don’t care if the blurb purports that this book has all the elements I typically enjoy, if the writing is bad, I will DNF that book. Writing is like 80% my enjoyment of a book. Popular example, My Brilliant Friend is wonderful. The writing is crisp yet heart-wrenching and the characters are believable.
I have noticed that if a book is rated highly, I will not like that book. I recently DNF’d Spoilt Creatures because while the writing was okay, I did not care about the characters (Emma Cline did this story so much better!). Last year I DNF’ed Betty, a beloved book that made me so angry I can’t even begin to explain why lol.
I get we all read for different reasons, and I agree we are in an age of anti intellectualism (I have been interested in reading ACOTAR just for fun but would never read a Colleen Hoover book omg). But I know historically for me, I do not enjoy the books made popular by booktok and pay their discourses and recommendations no mind. I say find your own book community. RUclips is an excellent place for more “intellectually engaged” readers!
manuscripts not manuals lol
Agree, I have also turned away from BookTok and found creators on youtube instead. I really enjoed the enthusiasm on TikTok, but every time I picked up a book I saw recommended on there, I was dissappointed, with ACOTAR being the final straw.
Same here I've had forever of if its popular there's a good chance I'll dislike it with very few exceptions usually i try to read the synopsis and judge based on that whether i will be interested
Her video is completely valid, but it rubs me the wrong way that she ended it with talking about books 'in the correct way'. There's no one correct way to talk about a book
I tend to avoid tiktok book recs cause so many of them read like bad fanfiction. And i do mean bad, like the publisher took it straight to print after doing no more than changing the names. They need to be heavily edited before printing.
As a fic writer, I feel like such poorly written works makes us look bad as a whole and yes, I'm bitter about it. But I'm not gonna blame the readers.
Also, why would I pay 30$ for published fic when I can get better online for free?
I want a certain level of finish if I'm paying for a book and most booktok recs don't have that in my opinion. I want publishers to do better by BOTH readers AND writers.
I feel like this argument in general is silly. Fabio-cover romance novels used to be the thing people scoffed at, harlequin stuff, calling them trash or vapid. I feel like maybe this is a bit of an extension of that? Idk
But i don't think it's anti-intellectualism to read "vapid" or even ficy works. I'm not mad at the readers, I'm mad at the publishing industry.
same and we should all be mad at the publishing industry!!
I think that, regardless of the publishing industry, virality, algorithm values, etc; what we need more of in tiktok is an incentive to think about what you are reading. You don't have to be super critical about it or share your opinion (if you don't want to), but its very valuable to read and think about what we like or dislike in a book. It provides us with growth, wisdom and more knowledge about ourselves, even if the book didn't teach you anything new in other regards. Being able to interpret and analyze art better is a skill that we all can benefit from!
I think its also important we know that we should always give valid criticism (no death threats or disrespect, like raya said), but we don't necessarily always need to give constructive criticism, as in: we don't need to know how the book`s problem should be fixed, that's the author`s and editor`s job. We don't need to provide options to solve the problem before we tell the specialists what the problem is. I do think its a good exercise to do, to think what i would change in a story so i`d like it more, but as consumers and readers that's not something a person should be forced to do when giving a review. If the author and editor know how to take it, its still going to be constructive!
I hope i made some sense, sorry for rambling :) I love your videos, they always make me think
thank you!! ❤️❤️
A lot of people still reading for fun are young and might not understand how in depth (or lacking) their books are.
In my experience most young people can better tell how in depth something than most adults. 95% of the people my age I meet tell me "I used to read."
I agree and don't agree. When I think back to my younger self, I had good ability to discern quality in a book. The issue was more that I would get very hyped up and emotional about some stories, even though I knew they were not of the best quality. My ability to detect quality has increased through the years and was not as good back then compared to now. But I think with teenagers, it's that when you find something that gives you all the emotions, you go ALL IN. So if you find a romance that speaks to you for whatever reason, you will hype it up to the highest degree and spread it. I think this hyperemotionality doesn't come just as often in books that are more literary or nonfiction (even though it absolutely can).
Does that make sense? I feel like I've been rambling more than explaining lol
@@justink5000 Yeah I think that you are correct in your case but my point was that you are an exception and most people our age in my experience do not read.
I think the problem is less Booktok and more the lessons publishers are taking from Booktok. I'm such a huge fan of One Piece that I've watched the ENTIRE series a good 6 times over now and a big part of that is that it's very easy to watch without thinking about it much deeper. There's a simple and satisfying formula all of its arcs follow and it's fun watching it play out different ways time and time again. However, what differentiates this from your average Booktok sensation is that there absolutely IS room to critically analyze One Piece's anarchist themes even if they're actually pretty shallow or how Oda can make extremely simple characters feel more complex than they actually are by constantly using the environment to his advantage. With a book like Fourth Wing, though, trying to apply that same critical lens simply exposes that the book truly has nothing underneath and is haphazardly held together with lazy trope invocations and vibes while the narrative and world fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.
I guess the long and short of it is that no one is advocating against stories you can enjoy without deeper thought. They're advocating against stories you can ONLY enjoy without deeper thought.
its still disheartening to see how most booktok books dont have diverse protagonists and members of the LGBTQIA community. literally most popular books will have a basic white cis het fmc and frankly, some of us are tired of it. also how booktok is normalising calling straight up p0rny erotic books as dark "romance" is very questionable.
Maybe just focus on a good story without having boxes to check in terms of 'diversity'.
@@citydweller99 i wasn't talking to you so gtfo, raceist :))
@@citydweller99 apne kaam se kaam rakh mc :)
@@citydweller99 maybe mind your own business, you privileged yt :))
I think the Issue if people seem to think reading is just about being smart, I read because I enjoy it I am not reading to gain knowledge, I have nothing against people who do but I think a lot of the people who view books that way don't want to hear other point of views especially those who read for fun and as an escape. I definatly think there is an issue with people misidentifying books especially those with deeper topics. I think the creator you show at the beginning proves this point,
Its complicated because I do things conversations about problematic themes or just general depth can be canceled when someone is like I don't really want to have conversation and just want to enjoy the book or whatever topics despite its possible flaws but I also think people should be able to enjoy what they want. Sometimes it feels like people always expect you understand super deep themes or pay attention to every detail when I just want to enjoy things in a low effort way that might not capture the depth that someone who is super concerned with understanding every single word and theme might have. Its just not fun to analyze things that hard tbh
I didn't sleep all night, so the sped up commentary from the video that you are referencing is almost incomprehensible to me. I'm trying to work out how to talk about reading for education and reading for pleasure in a different way. I have no problem with people reading for pleasure. I don't think reading is about showing off how smart someone is because they can analyze some popular novel I probably haven't read. That feels too much like people are trying to be popular girls in the booktube high school. I do worry about society though. I worry that the general level of education, and commitment to lifelong learning, has decreased in recent decades. I worry and get frustrated that there are so few readers in general, and when so many readers are ONLY willing to read for escapism, never nonfiction for education. It's not because I want to be a pretentious snob. It's because I want democracy to continue. Does that make sense?
@@TimeTravelReads You are proving my point, you are saying you don't mind people who read for escapism then saying reading for escapism is too big and we shouldn't be doing it. if you are reading to learn great good for you but so Manu people in recent years have learnt that reading can be a form of escapism just like watching a TV show or movie.
@@Kirsten.shergold I don't think she's saying there's anything wrong with reading for escapism, only the fact that it is so popular right now shows a deep structural problem within our society. There's a reason why people prefer to live in a fantasy, why people recommend books with the same plot over and over again, why most popular books barely incite to question anything. At least that's my perspective, since I used to read for escapism back when I was a severely anxious teenager with virtually no friends, and my tendencies have changed when I've gotten better in recent years
@xmxzng1617 I don't think this is a fault of readers or BookTok at all, though. They want a way forward in real life to make things possible, and if The Powers That Be thwart that, they may understandably seek out living through characters for a sense of control. You have generations of people afraid they'll never be able to afford a home or children, drowning in debt, watching rights be stripped away. You want them having deep thoughts about books when the world is making it difficult to act on deep thoughts in reality?
I think rather than focusing on a particular level of book, we need to address the fact that reading novels increases empathy. We need people to be more empathetic. That is much more significant than arguing about the need for a particularly deep theme versus a shallow trope.
I completely agree with your views on this. As someone who rates based on feelings and analysis after finishing (unless it's a book for education), sometimes you just need a book to get away from life. I believe a lot of readers on tik tok are new to reading and haven't built up that skill of being able to deeply analyse (i mean this in the least condescending way), i was exactly the same, ive only been reading for a few years but ive definitely picked up 'harder' books and thought more about the writing, meanings, how in depth, etc a book is the more ive read.
I also think there needs to be some recognition to the fact that there are more readers than ever before now, and book tok is creating that.
I think it's good to read a book for entertainment alone, but maybe after reading a book for fun, we should all feel encouraged to engage with the text on a critical and analytical level, because it helps us understand the book in a way, and allows for people to enjoy and like the book in a different manner. It also allows for great engagement in the book and allows you to appreciate the work, the story, the themes, the characters, the relationships, word choice, etc. more! Maybe this is coming from a writer who finds analysis of text to be enjoyable and entertaining, however, I really do love analyzing the things that I love. If not to show the love you have for a book, but by analyzing it and looking at all the thought and detail put into said book. Literary analysis can be a great way to engage with your books, even if your predominant motivation is to be entertained by the book. I really recommend trying this approach, as you get the best of both worlds, work on yourself, and still feel like you're building new skills!
i agree completely ❤️
agree with a lot of what you said! I will say a lot of times people have frustration with something within booktok, or booksta, or booktwt, it turns out to be a systemic issue and something from publishing. Every time issues like this pop up I get frustrated that people treat these billion dollar companies like they don’t have agency. On the other hand, seeing a dumb take isn’t always a sign of a larger systemic issue, and there will always be dumb people in the same fandom spaces as you. It would save a lot of people time and sanity if we reminded ourselves that we don’t have to engage with those sorts of people and just laugh at them with our friends like we used to instead of trying to make it a big issue
I disagree with a lot of takes in the video. On the second tiktok, the OP wants to know when did we started criticizing reading as entertainment only, but I think they believe that people who are exposing the anti-intellectualism are condemning reading for pleasure when it’s not the case. We do not believe that reading as leisure activity is bad, as art is made to be felt. BUT, I believe we cannot consume things just for the sake of it, ignoring the rational aspects. The whole point of the analysis is showing how the book market changed into something so vile, where you have to publish the shallowest pieces to attract people and sell more and more. In this scenario, the literary path is becoming tortuous because no one is able to critically think anymore, reading has become an aesthetic thing more then anything else.
So yes, you can read for fun and you should do it, but when you ONLY read for funsies, you let you critical skills deteriorate.
The tropes are a thing that is ok but has been used for bad. When a book of a certain trope is sold in spite of other that does not belong in any trope, we kill an important part of literary consumption that is exploring, giving oportunities and broading our world vision. It also prejudices the authors, who can no longer create from within, but to fill some made up tropes that are hyped at the moment. This makes de writing souless and marketable.
The capitalist system is purposefully tiring all of its subjects so they can only consume art that is empty, which makes the population unable to critical think, to fight for ideals and to resist. The system tells you "it's ok to turn off your brain" so you can't contest anything, as books were always a resistance thing. People who think, who criticize, who speak up are the ones they are afraid of. Or do you think the book bannings are just a random coincidence?
We should learn that reading is for entertaining, yes, but we should not ignore the whole intellectual aspect of it.
i think a lot of us are trying to say the same thing (with only slight differences maybe) but we are not hearing each other 🤷🏻♀️
Are y’all really out here policing people on how to read??? Let people read how they want and express what they read how they want. If people want book tok to become an intellectual space then become the majority that makes it so and control the marketplace. Criticizing the reader makes no sense.
@@Annbyrd i believe this mindset of “let people enjoy things” is very dengerous. no one is forcing you to read only intelectual things, but we do want people to rationalize their reading, that being a classic or a silly romance.
sometimes is good to read things you are not used to with the main goal to gain knowledge, get out of your confort zone and know more about things you are not familiar.
again, you can read what you want, but i do believe you have a lot to gain from diversifying your books. also, the whole point is to critically read, even if is the silly books.
I think society in general, and large portions of the internet have led to the increase in anti-intellectualism. Anyone now can post a comment and make a video, and, although they may dress their comment or video up in big words and flowery language, do they actually know anything more than anyone else? In most cases I would say no, but, what do I know of such deep things?
Writer here. I feel like there r so many books that are simple and enjoyable but also have good messages. You dont need a book to be difficult to read or understand or follow in order for it to send a well-developed message for the reader. Simultaneously, u don’t need a book to be devoid of substance or an important message in order for it to be easy to read or a way to escape. The problem involves the readers, the reviewers, the authors, and the publishers. Choosing to read a book for its tropes. Choosing to review a book only for its tropes, or recommend it based on its trope. Choosing to write a book just because u want a trope to be in it. Choosing to publish a book because it has a trope ppl want to read. It’s a cycle. As a writer, it troubles me that I may never get to publish someday because the tropes in my book are not as copy and paste as ppl want them to be these days. The general worry, I think, when ppl express their concern of anti-intellectualism is the disappearance of intellectualism. If books don’t have meaning, what do they have? U can even write ‘spice’ scenes to have meaning! I don’t understand the point of reading books if they don’t make you feel something or change your perspective. But maybe that’s just me. And of course I believe ppl have the right to read the books they want to read. But why do ppl NOT want to learn from books? We need to exercise our minds!!
Great video. I've found that many people, when they strongly love or hate a piece of media, are unable to think critically about why they love or hate it, so when someone comes in with an opposing analysis, they think that person is wrong, stupid, trying to go against the grain for clicks, etc, because they don't even understand their own views.
From what I've seen, I think the book community is a diverse in its discussion than in the TV/movie sphere, where many people seem to have the same dominating opinions and base these opinions off the opinions of others either in their circle or in some position of authority, and those with more "unpopular" opinions are too afraid to share these in case they get hate.
I wish people would realize that learning how to think critically about media doesn't ruin the experience of consuming media, and that it's okay to challenge commonly accepted viewpoints, even when those viewpoints are your own. Reading or watching something with your brain turned on doesn't have to be some massively draining experience. There have been books where I know it's not some groundbreaking piece of literature, but I enjoyed the experience without having to "turn my brain off" and that was that. Then there have been books that are considered incredible forms of high literature that straight up suck. We have to be able to voice our criticisms AND our praises without fearing harassment so that we can actually converse intelligently about trends and topics when it comes to writing and consuming fiction.
fully agree!
Re: on criticizing people's favorite content:
I think this is true of all content we consume. People have lost the ability of separating art from the people consuming it- highly due to internet discourse and its inherent nature of needing to promote drama and negativity to generate engagement imo. So, since we, as a culture, view the flaws of the content being consumed as indicative of the flaws of the consumer, we correlate the criticism of the content with direct criticism toward individuals engaging with said content, and people tend to get very defensive when they feel like they are being criticized for something they enjoy.
This is due to the general lack of media literacy and the inability of popular discourse to separate the art from the consumer, as well as the flaws existing within a piece of art from its merits. This in turn stems from our cultures obsession with political correctness and the idea that the media you enjoy are a direct reflection of your morals and values. In other words, since a good majority of art consumers do not have or do jot exercise the ability to be critical of the content they enjoy, and to be able to recognize its flaws without feeling the need to entirely condemn it, we end up with a very large group of people within today's society who either only consume what is deemed "acceptable" by the general standard _or_ feel the need to bend over backwards to make excuses and defend the content they consume that might be deemed "problematic" by those same standards, because they have been taught by popular discourse that their moral standing and irl values are directly extrapolated from the moral purity and values of the content they consume.
So in this atmosphere of constant judgment of character, based not on actual views, actions, or morals, but on the outward appearance we project (mainly on social media), criticism of art _becomes_ criticism of the individual, due to this correlation. Popular culture lacks the ability to differentiate between the flaws of a narrative and the flaws of the individual creating or consuming it, and therefore lacks the ability to separate criticism of that narrative from criticism of the individual.
This is a huge discussion and it encompasses way more than just our attitude toward literary criticism. This attitude, which is a byproduct of the current space our culture as a whole occupies - which is one of either utter condemnation or absolute, unquestioned support, both based on judgment regarding moral purity - leaves no room for nuance. So how can we be critical of the media we enjoy, when criticism implies moral failure of both content and consumer?
The only way forward is abandoning this mindset of absolutism, and allowing space for nuance and even flaws, because that is the nature of our existence. Very few things are ever black or white in this world, and holding ourselves to this impossible standard of either complete moral purity or complete moral failure is unrealistic and it's holding us back as a society. Reintroducing the grey area into popular discourse is the key to untangling all these other issues that stem from our society's absolutist view of the world we inhabit.
Tl;dr: the way our culture treats discourse as a whole affects the way we discuss specific topics and the discourse surrounding them.
i couldn’t agree more!! you said it 10x better than i ever could have
I feel all this certainly depends on context and also what sort of books you like. My reading taste is a bit jumbled - one example is I read the love hypothesis straight after wuthering heights and I liked them both. HOWEVER would I want to recommend them using the same language? Absolutely not.
it’s the same for me and i often read two books simultaneously to balance it out ⚖️😅
if a book has a price tag and wants you to spend your hard-earned cash on it - gosh, yes!!! a book should be out through a critical and sometimes negative review - I am sorry hard-working author, that's in the interest of the public. The author put a f price tag on it.
i kind of agree, i see so many poorly edited books these days :(
I think it's important to note that criticizing a book is not the same thing as telling people not to read it. There are books I didn't enjoy or that I couldn't get into, but I would never tell anyone not to read something and form their own opinion. It seems like the monetization of book content creation has no room for negative reviews, because positive reviews/recommendations drive sales and consumption is the lifeblood of content creation.
honestly that person on tiktok is right. trope-ification of literature has led to a ton of books written in like a month that have horrendous writing being published, while authors who work on their craft for years are being rejected by publishers. I'm simply unable to respect the booktok community when they push trash into the mainstream while actual good writers are either not getting the success they deserve or they're not getting published in the first place
For anyone who needs book recommendations: loooook at THE YALE LITERATURE-COURSE
I got book recommendations sweet heart
I got book recommendations for you sweet heart hey I got (vomits from one to many gin martinis.)
Ok ok ok
Richard wright Bkack Boy
Native son, Uncle toms children.
Uhm uhm Ralph Ellison Invisible man and Juneteenth.
Anything by Toni Morrison and Alice Walker: Caviat Emptor (no joke)
Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow, lot 49, against the day, and V
Okay, Celine is really taking herself seriously. When I was little in the library, I'd pick books by interesting cover, recognition and blurb or synopsis. It's the way you pick out books. I like analysis. I watch them plenty, but that's, as you said, different and it's consuming someone's opinion. People get different things from the same book. Deep analysis is still based on interpretation. Look at what authors have said about their own work, and compare it to what readers have gotten from the books. There's a lot of differences.
Oh, also, Four years of work? Most authors who survive don't spend near that long. It may be a great book, but we need money. It's designed to be made in a reasonable time frame, and be commercially viable. Great American, or Russian, or...etc, novels that take over a decade and a laudanum habit are, mostly, in the past. Heck, given the number of penny dreadfuls in the 1800s, and spy, sci-fi and detective serials up to the eighties, that was always the fancy pants way to do things, and not necessarily the way of a working writer.
Oh, jewelry design, like any form of... anything, does get criticism.
I like Nicole's take.
Booktok: Big word bad! Too many word in book more dan one sybull...silabl...syllable!
😡
The first one has such a weird anger and acts exactly how they accuse others of doing: making assumptions. With that tone and attitude, it's no wonder people took it as an attack. What if a strong female character is a thing I like and it makes me look at the book? It doesn't mean that I won't absorb the other things. You don't know if they can discuss that just because they mention one element.
'you can't reduce it to just a strong female character' yes I can. I can reduce it to just a book. To paper. Words. How offensive
Mind you I'm saying this as someone who's in her English lit masters. I LOVE intellectual discussions. But I can't expect that out of most people outside of the classroom with a few exception.
If reducing kills literature, then fanfiction tags would've died long ago.
I live in Ukraine. There are a lot of new publishing houses now looking for authors who write in the genres of romance, paranormal romance, romantasy; with enemies to lovers, forced marriage, mafia, werewolves, and alpha male tropes. I'm not kidding. It's written on the main page of their website. And it's unfortunate because, in Ukraine, very few authors write in genre literature like sci-fi and fantasy.
We can't boast of a variety of translated literature yet either. As a result, if you don't read in English, you are forced to read a few popular TikTok books, most of which cannot boast of the quality of the text or the plot. Or stick to classics, literary fiction, and/or nonfiction.
umm thats actually crazyy
My biggest concern is that we’re making ourselves as a species dumber. The average reading level for an American adult is 5th grade. That is not going to get any better if books - which are only consumed by people who actually want to read and ostensibly improve their ability to read- are also at a 5th grade level. Fully believe that reading for entertainment is a good thing, but it’s completely detached from reality to argue that a book is “good” when it’s about as structurally sound as a house of cards. And that’s mostly the fault of publishers, but they are following the money. They’re seeing books like fourth wing be published with no trace of an editor in those pages and being rated at the same level as war and peace. They will continue to give us subpar work as long as we endorse it. And no, I’m not saying fourth wing shouldn’t have been published. I’m saying that there should be at least a rudimentary grasp of the English language demonstrated in a book that people are raving over.
I think it best to just accept that a lot of content creators want to make a buck. It is a job and they want to be paid. I don't trust booktube or booktok. To be fair, I don't trust other authors either. The more glowing blurbs on a book from authors, the more I know that the book will be a disappointment to me. It is all just promo now and the best thing is to enjoy the creator if they put out content that you enjoy but take it with a grain of salt as one's preferences can be way different. I'm thinking of Elyse Meyers who does great book review/reactions videos that I enjoy a lot; yet I have not liked any of the books that she's loved. I still enjoy her thoughts on the books though. Remember it is your money and your time so use it wisely.
Im a writer and a reader, not really good at either, but I understand the sort of irritation that comes when people read a book such as a book I personally have beef with "A little life" and swear that it is the greatest piece of literature they have ever read. I also feel this way with a lot of Colleen Hoover, and while on the same topic, I think It ends with us fits well with what the first tiktoker was talking about. It is not typically advertised as a book about DV, It is marketed as a romance book, most of the tiktokers Ive seen treat it as if it is a simple romcom, as if the DV is just another trope. In instances like these, reading for entertainment (although not immpossible) completely steam rolls through the serious topics the books are centered around. This whole idea can lead into my opinions on dark romance but I'll spare you.
yes but the ones talking about “it ends with us” not being a romance are readers, while publishing and movie makers still try to package it as cute romance even though they have seen endless backlash
I take the metro to work, and read during my commute.
I have read literature and "light" reading during my ride, usually surrounded by people with a codependent relationship with their smartphones.
There has always been garbage for turning the brain off (is that even possible?), but great books always last.
May not bother with Booktok now... 📚
But the people on their phones could be reading a book or listening to an audiobook/podcast
I love booktube for book recommendations, though yall have steered me wrong a few times like wtf is sharp objects by gillian flynn.. she deserves jail for that book 😭
hahah why i love gillian flynn😂 though its been a long time since i read her books
Love your take! I feel that there is a lot of issues in the booktok community and any online book spaces (and other spaces on social media too; I notice this in the Metal community). There is a lot of gatekeeping, and an inability to handle different opinions. I have struggled to find fantasy books with romance that do not have spice (if they are new books) and have DNF'd more books in the last two years then I have before. I find the quality of very popular books on booktok (a lot of the time, but not all the time) are not the best, at least to me as an undergraduate with a Bachelors (so, I know things, but I could know much more). Fourth Wing is one of the notable popular books that I didn't enjoy reading--- for one, the writing, specifically the dialogue, was quite poor (and some other issues, but I didn't finish it so I don't know if it improved as the story continued). And I am glad people enjoyed Fourth Wing and other books like it, I want to take note of that; I have friends who really liked this book, and I'm glad they liked it. I couldn't finish it (probably because I am a a writer). I do know that that the book community will, for the most part, be ok... there will always be people who want to write well written books that I know I will enjoy and those who strive to write books that one can turn their brain off for, and both kinds of books are valid. I feel the issue is that the opinions of both sides is being attacked instead of understood; those who read for fun, the critics, and those who are both-- and the Publishing Industry's decisions from here on out; what will THEY do? How will THEY chose what books are published through them? The bright side is there is always self publishing, and there are amazing books that have been self published--- such as the Sword of Kaigen (sp?). And there are publishers that very much value the quality of their books before publishing them. The biggest publisher publishing books that are poorly edited if at all, is Red Tower Publishers, probably choosing these books to make a quick buck (may not be true, but a solid guess based on what they have released).
Supriseingly I don't think there's anything wrong with using tropes to recommend a book series, although sometimes depending on how's its done, can be misleading
I read for entertainment. I have a full-time job with kids, so I use audible to get my reading.
Once done reading/hearing a book, I also check on youtube if someone has done literary analysis of the book to see if I missed or caught on to those themes as well.
For me it's easier to consume a book this wat.
interesting, thank you for sharing!
i feel like we are all so different in our reading habits, the same way our life circumstances are completely different too
And this is exactly why reading should never have become a hobby to get clout off, like wow people can read and own books… and? Unlike most of these people I’ve actually read since I was 3, got relentlessly bullied for it growing up cos no one wanted to read it wasn’t cool and yet I read religiously, everyday and only now cos of clout chasing on TikTok and instagram has this happened, it really speaks volumes that people are reading to say they read and not because they enjoy reading. Take away a lot of peoples socials and a lot of their “hobbies” will disappear I promise
it's so clear that what happened to publishing is that people who were bullying us for reading got into the space and made it theirs by pushing really bad, easy to read books
I think one of the main issues is that we dont talk about the lines between 1. Books that are good to read even if they don't entertain YOU, be it a "classic", non fiction, textbooks etc. 2. books that are entertaining and have little to no quality to them, pure smut, trope based, problematic themes (sarah j maas) 3. Books that are entertaining to alot of people and also have great themes, educational qualities, cultural relevance etc. LotR, hunger games etc. I have read books in all of these categories and I think that's good, just like how a person can watch MI5 and dead poets society and enjoy both of them. But the movies are not for the same purpose.
So in response to the clip from Nicoleyorkcreates I would say the same people who cry about “let us enjoy things” are the same ones who whine when a book isn’t as diverse as they want and want it to cancel authors who don’t have certain themes in their books. So do the just want to be entertained or are they actually wanting more diverse books with social commentary woven in because in my head I hear Peter Griffin saying “ well which one is it?”
Tbh I'd still like some depth in my book recs. Maybe that's why I'm not on booktok.
there are people who do more in depths discussions and thoughtful recs on booktok, you just have to find them 🥰
i think we should get off tiktok
I think the main problem with that Tiktok you're reacting to is, that Tiktoker is equating a *lack* of intellectualism with *anti*-intellectualism, and being gets very defensive about it as an intellectual reader. I agree with you, that both approaches can and should be allowed to exist side by side. Not all content is aimed at all audiences. If someone is upset about not being served the content they seek, it's either that indeed, they are on the wrong platform, or the fault of the algorithm. But never the fault of the creators who are making content with a different target audience in mind, attacking them is not right.
Short answer is yes. Long answer is Yeeeeessssssssss
Here’s my thing, I’m taking a memory from a Highschool honors English course please bear with me. There was a point when we were going to study Romeo and Juliet (the original Shakespeare play (just wanted to clairify)) and a kid in my class was trying to get my teacher to change it because it was “too hard”. I’m not going to act like anything Shakespeare has ever written is point blank to the point and simple, it’s not. But it’s not difficult. If you take the context of some of the words it’s not hard to decipher. There are by far more confusing and complex pieces of literature out there. (God help him if he ever studies that in college.) It’s perfectly ok to not like Shakespeare it’s really not for everyone but his plays are also extremely important from both a linguistics and literary perspective. You can turn your brain off and read, that’s great but also we shouldn’t be downplaying the importance of certain pieces of literature. You can also analyze and interpret books all day long that’s also great but don’t expect everyone to do that. If you’re going to read a book with deep themes and plots please expect that more people are going to be analyzing those books instead of just saying “yeah that was good I liked xyz”. And if you’re going to read a more lighthearted, “read for fun” book don’t expect people to be analyzing every little detail. That’s it thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
we just learned this in our eapp subject but there's two types of reading: intensive and extensive. intensive if for analysis, evaluating, and engaging with the literary in deptth, extensive on the other hand, is reading casually and a comfortable level- it's for leisure. now the thing with extensive reading is, despite the fact that you are reading causally, you still use your brain, you still engage with it in a non-shallow way. turning your brain off when reading is something i believe is dangerous but otherwise, extensive reading is a thing and not a problem at all.
I disagree about criticism needing to be constructive. As a reader I am allowed to dislike a book and say just that without trying to make it better. If I order a dish at a restaurant and don’t like it, I am not going to call the chef and ask them to add spices or change anything. I also don’t need to insult them either. But we can totally discuss our thoughts and feelings on any thing including books.
TikTok does not promote anti-intellectualism. Anti-intellectualism is a defined ideology with a history and a fair amount of intellectual sophistication behind it. TikTok is a trivialization engine: it prioritizes short, quippy, atomic content and consequently has incentives almost diametrically opposed to the demands that literature makes on a reader. Trying to combine the two and consume them is the mental equivalent of trying to drink brackish water. It will poison you. It's not valuable as a introduction to anything.
My issue is not with the content of the books bit more the sheere number of them and the weird idea that you must read all of them in a short amount of time. There's nothing wrong with a book haul as long as it's an irregular thing. And you don't have to manage to read a book a day or whatever. Reading and book buying aren't competitions. Also. There's nothing wrong with a pretty book. I have some really pretty books that I only really picked up for the prettiness and the content matter was secondary (I still made sure it was content I was interested in). But the issue is when you get 5 copies of the exact same story in different covers and not because the previous 4 copies fell apart from being handled frequently.
That video in the middle hit the point exactly, i think. I spent most of highschool only reading manga and I only started reading books with written paragraphs instead of drawings again when I wanted to find out what happened next in a manga adapted from a light novel, so I started reading that and now here I am managing to actually find books I line and read them again! (And fuck, some of them are on the list my GCSE English teacher told me I should read. It's hardly most of the list but that was a list I hated with a burning passion and now I'm reading a few books that were on it!) And I don't really analyse those books I read much. (I mean, I do a little bit but honestly I spend more time analysing the characters and politics in the One Piece manga in the name of writing fanfiction and getting pissed off at dracula adaptations on tumblr (dracula adaptations just treat the characters so horribly its not fair. Lucy isnt a slut and jonathan isnt evil and the fact that its supposed intellectuals that originally started those readings of the characters really pisses me off more than anything) than I do any serious literary analysis.
there are many valid points made but i do think the example used of say someone recommending the poppy war as a book with a strong female protagonist instead of say a deep war saga that explores those traumas etc was a bit... of an overreaction? ever since people started to read books, they would ask "if i liked x what else should i read? can you recommend me something like y? i enjoyed z aspect of this book, are there others with that?" and to me that is a very valid form of book recommendation. if someone liked the hunger games, i think they'd enjoy the poppy war. both of these have a strong female protagonist at its center. these aren't false statements and i don't think the brevity of the recommendations necessarily dismisses the years of hard work that went into those books nor does it take away from the serious topics. other readers have their own responsibility to read a blurb, read a chapter, decide how they're going to interact with the book and in my opinion it's not necessarily down to the initial person who recommended or reviewed.
however - i think there should be a big difference between reviews by publications, reviews by readers, and ultimately the marketing done by the author and publishers and i think this final one has been blurring the lines the most to where i'm peeved. when i open a review by a publication, i believe the focus should be on a deeper analysis with the personal enjoyment as an afterthought (and that to me depends on how prolific the author of the review is). i think anyone who wants to fall into a more professional sphere with a blog or longform video reviews on say booktube fall in the middle. when i open goodreads on the other hand, i don't have a treshold that a reviewer needs to meet; it's for themselves first then other readers, and it's on you to toggle around and realize if you might want to read it - but even if it's just a star rating or a few words, it doesn't undermine anyone's work or any serious topics it deals with. these are readers.
THAT BEING SAID - the marketing changing towards prioritizing buzzwords to the point where it's ONLY about buzzwords (like hearing enemies-to-lovers in a three sentence pitch for a book or in the blurb is one thing - marketing your book with only the cover and buzzwords of tropes around it is another, and that difference is what irks me because now everything is the latter) to me is not what we should be allowing authors and publishers to do. you should go get the buzzwords from other readers who read the book, not the publisher marketing their latest release with nothing more than "friends to lovers only one bed she fell first he fell harder blah blah blah". WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHY WOULD I PICK UP THIS BOOKS JUST FOR THAT?
tropes have always been a tool for recommendation and yes cliches are cliches for a reason. however, the fanfiction tagging system being implemented to published books should not be accepted and it shouldn't work - they work on ao3 because i already KNOW the characters i want to see in those situations. what good is a book that's only an amalgamation of tropes with zero character to speak of? are they actually fleshed out or just conforming to whatever you need to fit as many tropes? i think that's more of an issue than ribbing off other creators for how they choose to review, read, or recommend. social media is for you to cater - find the reviews to match your style. people think about the algorithm too much imo
Rachel Oates has a 3hr long in-depth video going through the book It Ends With Us chapter by chapter and she shares on screen long excerpts/passages from the book and I’m reading the direct quotes from the book and it absolutely baffles me how anyone can say that book does not romanticize abuse when it absolutely DOES. Just because the main character eventually leaves her abuser in the end, does NOT mean the abuse wasn’t romanticized in the beginning. And before anyone says, “we’re seeing it from the survivor’s POV, so that’s why it shows it as romantic in the beginning cause she loves him and is willing to make excuses for him. No one wants to believe the person they love is an abuser,” just stop. He wasn’t this nice, sweet guy who later showed his true colors and became abusive after they’ve been together for a while. That would’ve been understandable and I wouldn’t have considered that as romanticizing abuse. But that’s not what happened. He showed major red flags and was abusive from the very beginning BEFORE they even entered a relationship together. From their very first interaction we see that he’s got anger issues and he doesn’t know how to respect people’s boundaries or ask for consent. The ONLY reason Lily has to like him at this point is because he’s hot. Guarantee you if she didn’t find him attractive she would’ve picked up on all the red flags and been creeped out by him from the beginning. Also, do people forget he literally SA’d her in the beginning? How is this romantic? How the hell does anyone fall in love with a guy like this? Fall in lust, sure, cause it’s clear she’s attracted to him, but love? What’s to love about a man who doesn’t respect your boundaries, refuses to listen when you tell him no, and begs, coerce, & manipulates you into having sex with him? Call me crazy, but I don’t find that attractive or romantic in the least bit. And the fact that Lily still enters a relationship and MARRIES him after all this, with all the red flags waving right in her face from their first interaction before she even “falls in love” with him (if you can even call it that, I don’t think Lily even knows what love is), how is that NOT romanticizing abuse?
Thank you for making this video and putting it into words. Women have always been reading Harlequin romance novels and I think there's no shame in that. And maybe i just don't know what men read, but i always see romance novels aimed at women being called anti-intellectual which makes me sad and frustrated
i am actually in the process of making a dedicated video about that, sooo stay tuned ❤️
& thank you for watching!!
I will never understand why so many women think that saying smut isn’t intellectual is somehow hating on women just because that’s the main audience of it. It couldn’t possibly be because reading erotica is simply not intellectual in the same way that watching pr0n isn’t intellectual.
I think its kind of ridiculous to expect people to put in a bunch of work into their fun hobby even if i read jane eyre am i gonna write an essay after to talk about the themes of the story and the nuance? (Gods im starting to hate that word) no am i going to watch the movie and fangirl most likely you can take fun books and analyze them i recently read the first book in the shopaholic series and i had to ignore the fact that i kept thinking about how the main character takes after her mother and learned her problem through her or has an actual problem and addiction how you can easily tell she's become depressed and is losing pleasure in even the addiction she has because of the hole she dug herself i did however watch the movie afterwards and complain about every single discrepancy in the story (they made her best friend marry her cousin im still mad) so fun turn off brain books or not both can either be read for pleasure (or dare i say fun) and analysis
Personally I think there’s a lot of underlying sexism in the criticism of short form bookish content. It doesn’t escape my notice that the corner of booktok that is getting so much hate is dominated by young women who read genre fiction.
O also think that a lot of creator and booktok itself shield itself from any criticism by saying oh your criticising this women lead thing it must be sexism and misogyny and it end up , this justification , being misogyny since to be taken seriously is to be criticised
Booktok issues are mostly overlook , and fast fashion litteratture just make thing worse ,
misogyny is def a thing!! but again i don’t believe in using it as an excuse to shut down important conversations and valid concerns
Because most of the books that young women read are really bad and are mostly the most narcissistic, melodramatic, and mediocre wish fulfillment you can imagine.
The male equivalent of this is the absolute loser that gets Isekaied into a game/fantasy world, where he just has huge powers and a harem of wifus with little to no effort whatsoever.
No one respects either of those. But boys barely read, so you see most of the criticism in places that talk about animation and games.
Given that women are also the ones disproportionately giving criticism of these books too I doubt sexism has much to do with it. Anime is largely targeted at young men. Does that make "Mother's Basement" a misandrist when he calls Sword Art Online terrible?
No, if there's a sexist element here, it's small next to intrasexual competition. I know women like to pretend they don't compete with one another, but you do. It's actually kind of interesting.
As always, you create such great quality content! I hope your channel continues to grow and thrive.
I also agree. When I saw that TikTok, I immediately felt the same way you did. On both sides, there are parts of the anti-intellectualism I agree with and other parts I don’t. Thanks for also being so honest and insightful! You made great points I hadn’t considered.
thank youuu!! ❤️❤️
43% of fourth graders in the U.S. scored at or above a proficiency level in reading, and for marginalized communities the numbers are much worse. Getting engaged readers so they can become more proficient and skillful readers is what anyone should want to encourage. Not the gatekeeping and bashing of other readers. I’d suggest to everyone watch the documentary “The Right to Read.” Pick up Mike Selby’s book “Freedom Libraries.” Read about anti-literacy laws around the world past and present.
Bring back gatekeeping.
Gatekeeping never died
honestly my biggest problem with booktok is how it's reduced to "spice lovers", "anti-intellectuals", etc. booktok has grown so much that it's become really more of a network of different kinds of communities. the content creators i follow on booktok aren't the kinds of people that make people think "omg booktok is so unhinged". i think outsiders don't realize just how big and varied a community it is, and there are some people giving the whole community a bad name
yes!!
I’m so glad for this video.
there’s a screenshot of my video in the beginning and i was like…that girl looks like me…oh! it is me 😅
oh hi! ❤️
Pish posh. When I was in university we studied Matthew Arnold, who was an old de@d yt dude. He was moaning and hand wringing about the death of culture in the 1700s. Oh NOES! It hasn’t gone anywhere. There will always be, as you say, a mix of people of different levels.
Some people like the analysis, some people like to read for pleasure.
As a BookTuber myself, what is most important to me is that people pick up books and read. Period.
🫱🏼🫲🏽
Hi, absolutely loved your video! Just discovered you. ❤
hi! ❤️ thank you for watching and your kind words
why did you straight up copy alisha’s video
who is alisha?
I've just intuitively avoided Simon/Schuster's queen or king of darkness and something, not because I know, but because goodreads paid trolls seem to be obsessed with it.
But hey, I'm an old man who was born in the year 30 BW (Before the Web)
Something I get confused by in regards to Booktok is the Song of Ice and Fire books by George Martin.
For a community that seems deeply obsessed with smut, power dynamics and abuse, I feel like they reject Martin's work for those exact things. That the books are too violent, there's too much abusive relationships. But then their reading list is "self insert gets railed by quintuplet werewolves who seem to really like leaving bruises on her"
Tome, saying that recommending books by the tropes present on them is wrong is akin to saying that movie trailers reduce the movie to a few scenes that happened on it. It's just marketing. The idea is to get more people to read the book. You choose whether to listen to those recommendations or not, the same way you choose whether to watch a movie based on the trailer.
great analogy!
@@rayareadzzzz I really don't think it is. A movie trailer is put out by the studio from existing, in-production material that's being made because of previous successes in that genre/niche.
As I understand Celine's argument, she is upset that simplistic recommendation driving out more critical, analytical engagement from online spaces and publishers increasingly basing their publishing strategies on those online spaces leads to both anti-intellectualism and poorer books.
The movie equivalent would be if studios based their releases around whichever of those fan-made, AI trailers went most viral on YT. (In fact, equivalent things have already happened: we got Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, Snakes on a Plane and the rerelease of Morbius from it.)
The question is really: what signals are being sent to producers about the state of the market? If online book discussion is overwhelmingly signalling to publishers that readers are only interested in tropes, then that is all publishers will put out. And it is not true that authors will remain free to write other things: in the SFF space, we can already see authors putting out poorly conceived sequels to successful stand-alones because the publishers want series.
It's also not necessarily true that BookTube at least, if not BookTok, has to be dominated by trope discussion. YT is full of detailed reviews and analyses of film, from arthouse to blockbusters. I recently watched a 10+ minute analysis on the use of red and blue in a Zendaya movie. Maybe it's easier for film enthusiasts to do that sort of thing on YT because film is so much more visual. But if book publishers are going to get their market signals from online discussion, is it so bad to wish that discussion were less dominated by tropes?
The TikTok that sparked this is giving colonial gatekeeping. Homegirl literally uses the word “correct” to describe the only way *she* thinks analysis and recommendations should happen.
Arguments like that confirm that society is well on the road to Idiocracy. Pretty soon, reading itself will be criticized, and ALSO just like the movie, most public communication was made in the form of pictographs, as used in road signs and crosswalks.
In hearing yoru comment starting at 17:54 about why reading isn't seen the same way as other hobbies where different skill levels are expected when looking at the communities that surround it and I think it has to do with the assumption that because people are taught how to read and write throughout school, there's no excuse for not being "able to do what I can with reading" that I've encountered while being on the fringes of book communities online - which of course doesn't take in account of reading disabilities, mental illnesses that might deteriate skills in not using them as much as you once did or even the fact that in a lot of areas, people are just passed through the schooling system due to a mulitude of reasons including how teachers often can't pay attention to one or two kids struggling when they have a whole classroom to look after.
There's also the assumption that gets reinforced in fiction that if you are a reader then you are assumed to be smart or "know a lot of things" just because you have read a lot without people asking what it is that you're reading. Because if you're reading then it must be something of importance and not something that could be seen as entertainment. But that's my thoughts on what I've observed online since getting myself back into reading since 2020 and going to college at the same time where I was gaining skills of reading texts and having to discuss them for my major in history.
(By the way, just found you and I like how you talk about things to do with the book community! Definitely gonna watch more videos from you! :D)
9:09 I always hear this about kids being put off from reading but what books are people expecting kids to read?
The thing is, I don't think "you have to be this smart to be reader" is a compelling argument at all 😂