Join us for John Vervaeke's new live course: The Cognitive Science of Ritual. The 6 weeks of lectures start on Oct 7th. Involved patrons get 10% discount. Apply code at checkout. Register today: www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-cognitive-science-of-ritual Visit our brand new Symbolic World Store to pre-order our beautiful fairy tale book written by myself and illustrated by Eloise Scherrer: Jack and the Fallen Giants! Buy soon to catch the pre-order sale. Also don't miss the opportunity to get your hands on Snow White and the Widow Queen, which we have limited stock of and we're not sure when we will print more: store.thesymbolicworld.com
If I have nightmares I just pray in my mind while I am asleep and I just wake up, or I am moved in the middle of New Jerusalem, I prayed so much that I created a soul memory instinct just like a muscle memory reflex. Lets see if one has faith in Jesus, if one is able to answer then you are a Christian warrior. What is your sword and shield as a Christian?
15:04 I was on a plane last year, a night flight after Christmas, and I prayed with my prayer rope for about 30 minutes after takeoff. I stopped when the lights came up and they began the cabin service, and the woman next to me turned and said that she'd been meditating: she said I had a powerful, serene aura around me, and that it had made her meditation unusually deep. She asked if I'd been meditating too, saying I clearly had a rich practice, do I use a mantra, etc; and I said no, I was praying, and I held up my prayer rope. Her eyes lit up, and she said "Oh, you're Buddhist" and went on about her Buddhist friend; and when she'd finished, I said no, I'm a Christian, that prayer ropes have a long history in Christian prayer life. She said "Oh", turned away, and didn't talk to me again for the remaining 2½ hours of the flight 😂 What happened to my powerful aura, lady?
I dont quite get this: why would realizing an aspiration require ritual? Usually we emulate people we look up to as a role model (including for rationality), without going through some ritual practices. Or am I misunderstanding that point?
The ritual is the frozen in time frame which signals the achievement of an aspiration. Ritual is remembering and re-living that momment when you became or will become.
I think we don’t always think of rituals as rituals. It’s more like ritual tends to emerge in human behavior. And engaging in emulation of those we admire often involves simple actions that take on the significance of ritual if only to the person experiencing it. Oddly, the example that leaps to mind is a scene from the runaways, when the singer cuts her hair like David bowie’s. It’s a teenager cutting her hair to look like her favorite celebrity. But to her it’s a revolutionary act, or like a primal shedding of skin. I think that’s what he means about exchanging rituals for different rituals instead of being able to opt out. Maybe it’s just the human need to externalize perceived personal transformation. If something changes us, we express that change. If we fail to, then it didn’t really change us.
Hey John, I might be able to speak to this: Imagine you want to be a pro baseball player. The rituals you will go through involve daily habits, repeated exercises, mantras and mental exercises, and taking on a new identity (that of “ball player”) and each organization will have a “way” that they teach through these various rituals “the Cardinal way” or, as in the movie Moneyball “Oakland A’s baseball”. And if you notice, any aspirational goal state will require these types of rituals in order to get there. Another example might be writing. I’m a part of all these writing communities where people form communities, keep each other accountable for the daily habits, acquire mentors and mentorship, and work towards that goal state using repetition, practice, mental exercises and the like.
Hey, what does “ritual” mean in this context? When you guys refer to ritual do you mean: traditions, or do you mean religion - and spirituality? (Or maybe even both.)
Idk - sometimes it seems like our modern culture way overthinks things. If we began to lose our way with overthinking in the scholastic renaissance, will we find our way back through more rational deductive abstractions to explain why rationalism doesn’t work and what ritual is (via cognitive science, et al)? If anything I suppose it exposes the limits of all this heady stuff, but that also necessarily means we need to let it go, or at least, subject it to the nous, in its proper place in the hierarchy. To not offer “strange incense” but to offer the good incense of right belief and right worship. There is “boots on the ground” wisdom in the simple babushka saying her prayers but not in the complex jargon of intellectualism.
Yes but for many of us John’s work is a necessary step to take ritual seriously. Only then can we take the next step of going beyond thinky-talky and just live it. If you’re already in that place then John’s work probably isn’t for you.
I also often want to add to all these "unpacking", various modes of inquiry into living activity, that left/right, episodic/semantic/tacit, etc in reality are not distinct but commingled inseparable realities...
@@kevinquinnkelly You're right, and not only that, John knows he's reaching a very specific sort of audience, that is, people interested in looking for new-old ways by which an interdialogical approach between different religiosities can be established. His work is not for everyone, there are few who can take their time to really study what is being said, and in some sense that few will by their own ways take this legacy foward.
thinking themselves wise, they became fools. We are easily led astray. look at everyone that follows "The Science". science is good. some make it their god.
@@ScottMannion to be fair to your position, the technocracy could make a move one day, one that will be earnest and seen as participants with Good intentions... If it comes in our lifetime, I have faith that Jonathan will give John his honest opinion and not abandon him to be alone, due to their cultivated friendship developed in talks like this one. This is what Christ calls us to do. Vervaeke is one of the most humble public voices I've ever heard. I've participated in one of his circling practices, witnessing his love (my group's choice focus was "humility "). It's hard to blame him for remaining intellectually honest to himself, and all things will materialize in Their proper time.
"you have to imagine and project yourself into that space before you enter into it because why would you desire it if you couldn't imagine yourself in it?" ok great point but how does this apply with our desire for Heaven or Theosis or the Beatific Vision, whatever you want to call it. Are the images in scripture of light, gold and other splendid things there to provoke our imaginative desires? How else could we want what we have never experienced....hmm this is a very provocative notion.
Cognitive science of religion. How to act religious yet avoid its true devotion to it. These people like Vervaike are dangerous and at one point Jonathan should move on from their gatekeeping.
Can anyone tell me anything about the " Don Chappie" Vervake references at about 40:30ish? I'm hearing impaired so I just can't tell what he' saying and the transcript isn't helpful. Much thanks to anyone who could fill me in. Pax V
He's referencing the paper "Distributed Cognition and the Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission" by Dan Chiappe and John Vervaeke.
For the youth, participatory understanding is being lost, not propositional. They, the youth, have false intermediaries such as AI or smartphones to try to feel in the gaps. AI nor smartphones experience. Information transferred from person to person by experience is greater than propositional knowledge. However, the two together are good, but more so participation greater. Everything will be lost if propositonal is only used. Everything!!!
It seems like ritual is where there is something implicit in action that connects the vertical and horizontal Vertical=observer Horizontal=participant Perfect observation is timeless. Perfect participation has no perspective.
@@marincusman9303 I have plenty of videos. Check out the overview on somatic intelligence/noetic perception ones. Everything is vaguely satire of online teaching via extremely low production value but it’s also the most advanced relevance realization on the planet in the public sphere at the moment
@@fabricedemonaco6886 all my conceptualization are. Thank you. I’ve been offering to help John with his blindness but he’s not interested in corrective lenses.
Whenever you practice a musical instrument.. You are mining for grace. The quality object and quality of your ritual will be evident in the fruit that flows. Its very frustrating when the way you practiced a piece worked, but you aren't sure what about your practice made it work
This is so interesting. If the rituals are the function then the form has to be something like a church or courthouse. Can the function come before the form? Can the marriage ceremony originate at a time and place where there is no church or courthouse? I can't imagine how that could be so and therefore implies to me a simultaneous apotheosis type of event in consciousness which could only be given as grace from above, not something the grows out of the particularities below. Thanks for proving God exists John :D
Dr. Vervaeke's clip at the beginning of this is a technical way of succinctly saying something that I've been trying to articulate for years. Hopefully, this will help more technically minded folks awaken to this truth.
So many things that we now have to explain explicitly were once just lived out by people without being said. We’ve become so self-aware and conscious of why we act, yet it seems harder than ever to simply be who we are.
Rational means Relational, to be relational means to be in the pursuit of relations, now what kinds of relations? in Christianity we would say relations that reflect the inner life of the most Holy Trinity but in an incarnate manner, so you will get rituals out of that yes or yes, because to be properly ordered in such saintly relations we need proper alignment and for that we need correction in our aim to proper relationality thus we will have rituals that helps us mediate our relationality in an orderly manner.
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Join us for John Vervaeke's new live course: The Cognitive Science of Ritual. The 6 weeks of lectures start on Oct 7th. Involved patrons get 10% discount. Apply code at checkout. Register today: www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-cognitive-science-of-ritual
Visit our brand new Symbolic World Store to pre-order our beautiful fairy tale book written by myself and illustrated by Eloise Scherrer: Jack and the Fallen Giants! Buy soon to catch the pre-order sale. Also don't miss the opportunity to get your hands on Snow White and the Widow Queen, which we have limited stock of and we're not sure when we will print more: store.thesymbolicworld.com
If I have nightmares I just pray in my mind while I am asleep and I just wake up, or I am moved in the middle of New Jerusalem, I prayed so much that I created a soul memory instinct just like a muscle memory reflex. Lets see if one has faith in Jesus, if one is able to answer then you are a Christian warrior. What is your sword and shield as a Christian?
I love the synodal spirit you embody, Jonathan, with your bold interfaith conversations!
15:04 I was on a plane last year, a night flight after Christmas, and I prayed with my prayer rope for about 30 minutes after takeoff. I stopped when the lights came up and they began the cabin service, and the woman next to me turned and said that she'd been meditating: she said I had a powerful, serene aura around me, and that it had made her meditation unusually deep. She asked if I'd been meditating too, saying I clearly had a rich practice, do I use a mantra, etc; and I said no, I was praying, and I held up my prayer rope. Her eyes lit up, and she said "Oh, you're Buddhist" and went on about her Buddhist friend; and when she'd finished, I said no, I'm a Christian, that prayer ropes have a long history in Christian prayer life. She said "Oh", turned away, and didn't talk to me again for the remaining 2½ hours of the flight 😂 What happened to my powerful aura, lady?
The demons in her don’t want her to learn the truth.
Mention her in your prayers if you can. That may well have been a seed that was planted. Glory to God
I dont quite get this: why would realizing an aspiration require ritual? Usually we emulate people we look up to as a role model (including for rationality), without going through some ritual practices. Or am I misunderstanding that point?
The ritual is the frozen in time frame which signals the achievement of an aspiration. Ritual is remembering and re-living that momment when you became or will become.
I think we don’t always think of rituals as rituals. It’s more like ritual tends to emerge in human behavior. And engaging in emulation of those we admire often involves simple actions that take on the significance of ritual if only to the person experiencing it. Oddly, the example that leaps to mind is a scene from the runaways, when the singer cuts her hair like David bowie’s. It’s a teenager cutting her hair to look like her favorite celebrity. But to her it’s a revolutionary act, or like a primal shedding of skin.
I think that’s what he means about exchanging rituals for different rituals instead of being able to opt out.
Maybe it’s just the human need to externalize perceived personal transformation. If something changes us, we express that change. If we fail to, then it didn’t really change us.
much like how realizing how to ride a bike needs practice.
Hey John, I might be able to speak to this: Imagine you want to be a pro baseball player. The rituals you will go through involve daily habits, repeated exercises, mantras and mental exercises, and taking on a new identity (that of “ball player”) and each organization will have a “way” that they teach through these various rituals “the Cardinal way” or, as in the movie Moneyball “Oakland A’s baseball”. And if you notice, any aspirational goal state will require these types of rituals in order to get there. Another example might be writing. I’m a part of all these writing communities where people form communities, keep each other accountable for the daily habits, acquire mentors and mentorship, and work towards that goal state using repetition, practice, mental exercises and the like.
Hey, what does “ritual” mean in this context? When you guys refer to ritual do you mean: traditions, or do you mean religion - and spirituality? (Or maybe even both.)
Anyone else wanna see Jonathan on the talk tuah podcast?
Enlightenment framework crumbling? Yipee
Not even the first time 😓
Idk - sometimes it seems like our modern culture way overthinks things. If we began to lose our way with overthinking in the scholastic renaissance, will we find our way back through more rational deductive abstractions to explain why rationalism doesn’t work and what ritual is (via cognitive science, et al)? If anything I suppose it exposes the limits of all this heady stuff, but that also necessarily means we need to let it go, or at least, subject it to the nous, in its proper place in the hierarchy. To not offer “strange incense” but to offer the good incense of right belief and right worship. There is “boots on the ground” wisdom in the simple babushka saying her prayers but not in the complex jargon of intellectualism.
Yes but for many of us John’s work is a necessary step to take ritual seriously. Only then can we take the next step of going beyond thinky-talky and just live it. If you’re already in that place then John’s work probably isn’t for you.
I also often want to add to all these "unpacking", various modes of inquiry into living activity, that left/right, episodic/semantic/tacit, etc in reality are not distinct but commingled inseparable realities...
@@kevinquinnkelly You're right, and not only that, John knows he's reaching a very specific sort of audience, that is, people interested in looking for new-old ways by which an interdialogical approach between different religiosities can be established. His work is not for everyone, there are few who can take their time to really study what is being said, and in some sense that few will by their own ways take this legacy foward.
thinking themselves wise, they became fools. We are easily led astray. look at everyone that follows "The Science". science is good. some make it their god.
Humility, humor, hospitality - trust in that which contains us all & everything - I don't know how else to welcome the Creator Christ
Is there a glossary or terms? Lol, so many that I don't understand. Where do I go to get a definition?
Enough of this jonathan, stop propping him up and enframing and technicalising the divine.
Some of us appreciate it, though...
@@ScottMannion to be fair to your position, the technocracy could make a move one day, one that will be earnest and seen as participants with Good intentions...
If it comes in our lifetime, I have faith that Jonathan will give John his honest opinion and not abandon him to be alone, due to their cultivated friendship developed in talks like this one. This is what Christ calls us to do.
Vervaeke is one of the most humble public voices I've ever heard. I've participated in one of his circling practices, witnessing his love (my group's choice focus was "humility "). It's hard to blame him for remaining intellectually honest to himself, and all things will materialize in Their proper time.
Ritual is a way of conveying information from the past to the present.
Elimination of Ritual is a way of forced forgetting.
It’s more likely ritual is a way to connect with a community. Within Christianity alone, rituals have changed within denominations
Time binding
It's justification by the flesh
stop advertising your wares like a goblin merchant during these conversation dude
Hahaha
Any time I see the word 'cognitive' I know John Vervaeke will be poking his head out!
I think Jonathan Pageau has jumped the shark.
The care that goes into the choice of words by John Vervaeke is incredibly humbling to someone like myself with a loose tongue.
I'm not sure if I've ever encountered a more boring rambling pseudo-intellectual than Vervaeke in my life.
What a strange way of saying you're stupid.
@@DemetriosLevi Ok Shmuel.
This is amazing
"you have to imagine and project yourself into that space before you enter into it because why would you desire it if you couldn't imagine yourself in it?" ok great point but how does this apply with our desire for Heaven or Theosis or the Beatific Vision, whatever you want to call it. Are the images in scripture of light, gold and other splendid things there to provoke our imaginative desires? How else could we want what we have never experienced....hmm this is a very provocative notion.
Cognitive science of religion. How to act religious yet avoid its true devotion to it. These people like Vervaike are dangerous and at one point Jonathan should move on from their gatekeeping.
Vervaeke is not dangerous.
You are the only one gatekeeping anything, with a very hardened heart. I can only wonder why that affliction was put upon you.
Looking forward to this!
Can anyone tell me anything about the " Don Chappie" Vervake references at about 40:30ish? I'm hearing impaired so I just can't tell what he' saying and the transcript isn't helpful. Much thanks to anyone who could fill me in. Pax V
He's referencing the paper "Distributed Cognition and the Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission" by Dan Chiappe and John Vervaeke.
@@exploriter Thanks so very! Pax V
For the youth, participatory understanding is being lost, not propositional. They, the youth, have false intermediaries such as AI or smartphones to try to feel in the gaps. AI nor smartphones experience. Information transferred from person to person by experience is greater than propositional knowledge. However, the two together are good, but more so participation greater. Everything will be lost if propositonal is only used. Everything!!!
It seems like ritual is where there is something implicit in action that connects the vertical and horizontal
Vertical=observer
Horizontal=participant
Perfect observation is timeless.
Perfect participation has no perspective.
Of course
Timeless could also mean
Contains all of time within and no time without.
Ritual is writing in space rather than on paper. Also, water is ritual
"Ritual is writing in space rather than on paper"
Magnifique
I like that. Could you explain the water part?
@@marincusman9303 I have plenty of videos. Check out the overview on somatic intelligence/noetic perception ones. Everything is vaguely satire of online teaching via extremely low production value but it’s also the most advanced relevance realization on the planet in the public sphere at the moment
@@fabricedemonaco6886 all my conceptualization are. Thank you. I’ve been offering to help John with his blindness but he’s not interested in corrective lenses.
@@Aquaticphilosophia probably because of your arrogance lol
+
🤯🤯🤯
Looking forward to the discussions to come!
Yall describe the water we drown in
Whenever you practice a musical instrument..
You are mining for grace.
The quality object and quality of your ritual will be evident in the fruit that flows.
Its very frustrating when the way you practiced a piece worked, but you aren't sure what about your practice made it work
This is so interesting. If the rituals are the function then the form has to be something like a church or courthouse. Can the function come before the form? Can the marriage ceremony originate at a time and place where there is no church or courthouse? I can't imagine how that could be so and therefore implies to me a simultaneous apotheosis type of event in consciousness which could only be given as grace from above, not something the grows out of the particularities below.
Thanks for proving God exists John :D
I find it interesting our interface with computers is a device to point and a device for logos
Two words: spontaneity and authenticity. Modern society sees spontaneity as authentic and ritual as inauthentic and devalues ritual accordingly.
Dr. Vervaeke's clip at the beginning of this is a technical way of succinctly saying something that I've been trying to articulate for years. Hopefully, this will help more technically minded folks awaken to this truth.
So many things that we now have to explain explicitly were once just lived out by people without being said. We’ve become so self-aware and conscious of why we act, yet it seems harder than ever to simply be who we are.
Rational means Relational, to be relational means to be in the pursuit of relations, now what kinds of relations? in Christianity we would say relations that reflect the inner life of the most Holy Trinity but in an incarnate manner, so you will get rituals out of that yes or yes, because to be properly ordered in such saintly relations we need proper alignment and for that we need correction in our aim to proper relationality thus we will have rituals that helps us mediate our relationality in an orderly manner.
38:00 ostension 27:53
Subscribed! Very much looking forward