How Gargoyles Redefined Cartoon Villainy
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- Опубликовано: 19 сен 2021
- In the '70s and '80s, cartoon villains were mostly petty losers. Characters like Doctor Doom and Skeletor would be defeated by the end of the episode, only to shake their fist and grumble at their minions until their next episode rolled around... and things played out mostly the same all over again.
But Gargoyles co-creator, co-producer and writer Greg Weisman wanted to change that.
Gargoyles, which ran from 1994 to 1997, was a Disney show about ancient monsters that are -- as the opening credits put it -- "stone by day, warriors by night." But it would become much more than that, gaining a cult following in the years since it first aired that has kept it near the top of the animation landscape from that time period. And much of that reputation is the result of how Gargoyles treated its villains... and how, in doing so, it helped to redefine cartoon villainy in the '90s.
Watch the full video where we talk to co-creator Greg Weisman and star Jonathan Frakes (David Xanatos) about how the Disney cartoon Gargoyles turned its villains into winners, and helped to redefine cartoon villainy along the way.
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Watching Gargoyles was one of the best things about being a 90s kid.
FACTS!
No lies detected
it’s one of the few things I’ll watch on Disney+
FACTS man we had the best cartoons back in the day 😁
1000%
To this day, this show’s antagonists are just ONE of the reasons “Gargoyles” still holds a special place in my heart (😊).
Me too.
@@gundanout11 :)
Me to man 😁
@@kristopherwillis8075 Cool to hear. :)
What are the other reasons?
Between Batman the animated series and Gargoyles the 90s were a great time to watch cartoons
Don't forget X-Men.
@@zacarybruner2600 and spiderman
Also don't forget Superman: The Animated Series.
You have to put Exo_Squad in there too. Like Gargoyles their universe had major character development and story arches that had life & death consequences, where people, major characters died.
And Spawn. The most hardcore of them all
27 years later Gargoyles is still one of the greatest animated series of all time
Actually one should take a moment (especially nowadays) to appreciate female characters from this show. This is how you do complex, sympathetic and non overpowered strong females. Elisa, Fox and Demona are just naturally cool and charismatic without show needing to point it out. A lot of today's scriptwriters should really learn from that.
And Angela! But Princess Catherine’s arc was always fun for me…
Titanya too, but she’s the definition of OP
Eliza is a woman. She is half black, half indigenous American. She is basically what modern writers try to do but fail.
Back then, nobody thought about race. Race was never an issue. Nor was gender. Different but equal.
So True
@@jzaroh2004yeah...early 90s famous for not having anything to do with race...do you even hear yourself
Hopefully the series will one day make a comeback. Gargoyles was seriously so underrated.
Only if Weisman is involved. Otherwise the Slave Labor comics are the perfect continuation.
check out the comic books on it
This and also Cybersix imo👌 I love that show so much
Yes aanother modern "woke" remake to shoehorn hot political takes from the writers. Yes please.
@@gnuwaves743 My thoughts exactly.
Xanatos is basically Lex Luthor without the revenge-obsessed flaws and a lot more hair. Hence why his business image rarely takes a hit.
Xanatos is basically a modern day, villainous Odysseus. A tricky fellow, who'll use nearly any means to justify his end. He's pragmatic but also curious. Immortality appeals to him. But family is ultimately more important. He's also smart as hell. Handsome, strong. A fierce warrior who uses force as a last resort. Sounds fairly Xanatosian to me.
@@GregXB3 Re-enable the damn comments on your Grandiloquent Dr. Doom video. People want to praise Simon Templeman.
Nehh... Lex Luthor is crazier.
Xanatos is just a common millionaire, he is bad but not so crazy. If you research a little bit more about the real life millionaires, they have the same mindset and the same behavior Xanatos has.
It's a shame Xanatos never pulled a Riker maneuver with a chair.
That's because Lex Luthor would burn a building to collect insurance while Xanatos would rather turn the same building into a place of business. Luthor just can't see how things could potentially go in the long-term while David Xanatos chooses to see the long-term benefits and would rather go for that than what he sees upfront. Xanatos is also a 'Silver Linings' kind of guy while Luthor most certainly _isn't_.
Xanatos to this day is one of the best villains I’ve ever experienced. He’s not all powerful or all knowing but he’s clever and will almost always have plans that cover both situations so that he’ll come out ahead regardless and has a knack for lateral thinking that lets him abuse prophecy to his advantage.
But despite all that occasionaly he will get beat or in a losing situation and he doesn’t break down he admits it and moves on with the best possible play. He has his pride but he’s mastered it into a tool for him to use not be used by it.
He’ll swallow his pride if it means saving the one he loves.
And the fact that he has someone he legitimately loves a child he’d do anything for and a loyal friend he’d stick by ? It shows that despite his scheming he’s not entirely evil.
That doesn’t stop him from doing evil things in pursuit of his goals and he is very effective when he is actually doing evil things .
There’s a reason why he is a trope namer and the face of the magnificent bastard trope.
Xanatos traveling back in time to make himself rich was so crazy and made sense in a way
His father may not be proud of him but that plan was too great to hate
the entire time he even said "I'm a Self made man"
but that's paradoxal, how the first Xanatos come up with the idea to use the illuminatis to make himself rich centuries before he was born. How did he find the means to travel in time without the Phoenix Gate? How did all of this started?
The crazy thing was he didn't do it to become rich - he was already rich and he knew time travel couldn't change the past - he did it to exploit the 'can't change the past' part to become an entirely self-made man.
@@marcusc9931 uh yes, he did it to become rich or more so his past younger self could become rich. Without that ancient money and the instructions of futur Xanatos, young Xanatos would not become rich.
Demona was probably one of the best villains Disney has ever come up with. The ultimate crazy baby momma.
Unpopular opinion. Demona was a better villain than Xanatos.
I’ve chosen death with that one haven’t I
@@matityaloran9157 No, you haven't.
@@brett9675 That’s a relief
Honestly, Demona is one of my favorite archetype's for villains. The tragic and scorned villain.
The reasons why love this cartoon is because of its plot twists and turns which means you never know who s setting up who or which side they are on
You know you've succeeded when there's a whoIe trope named after how briIIiant your character is. One of the few viIIains who, if they told you everything was part of their pIan, you wouIdn't roII your eyes.
Two of them, actually. There's also "Xanatos Speed Chess."
eh a mustache guy comment without many ppl replying to him XD.... so....guessing this was in your recommended this time ?
Except the worf effect. That is not flattering
@DeSPoTNemanjaS The Worf effect is a trope when writers introduce a new character and to show how tough they are, have them beat a previously established character that's known to be strong. This trope isn't actually bad if used correctly and sparingly but sometimes writers just keep using this trope that the original character doesn't seem so tough anymore.
And if you listened to the letter of what he told you, you'd still lose.
When your character beats out the likes of Doctor Doom, Darkseid, Havelock Vetinari, and freakin' Sun Tzu as the name of a trope defining a cunning, unbeatable strategic mastermind, you know you've done something amazing.
Gargoyles is still one of my favorite shows of all time. Specifically because it was so smart, so tightly written, and didn’t speak down to kids.
The gun violence episode, where Broadway plays with Elisa's gun and it goes off, shooting her, was absolutely brilliant and groundbreaking.
This show was brilliant. The Shakespeare storyline in particular was such an original twist for a cartoon at that time.
Keith David played an amazing voice. Thank you sir, for giving me such amazing feels for a great show.
The scream he does when he returns to the castle to find the other gargoyles shattered still gives me chills
@@RageUnchained "Angel of night."
Xanatos is one of the most underrated and complex characters in cartoons. It was my introduction to somebody who may have done bad things at times but not necessarily evil. So many layers.
Them he’s morally gray?
@@leonardofarias8843 more or less. After becoming a father he wasn't the same villain....heck by the series end he became an ally to Goliath and co.
@@kbhalacy Read the SLG comics. They present Xanatos' alliance in a different kind of way, a better way.
@@leonardofarias8843 He's a ruthless unscrupulous human, not a cookie-cutter villain. He'd never do evil for evil's sake - he has his own goals, and is uncompromising in pursuing those - and thinks through and handles the consequences. Morally gray assumes there's black and white - he'd reject that out of hand. He doesn't have opponents, he has people who are opposing him at this point in time. He deeply cares for his family, and he deeply respects the Gargoyles - but that respect doesn't mean he won't try to use them given the chance.
@@TheDMind Great description.
The villains in gargoyles were so great because they weren't completely evil
Even the ones that were completely evil like Demona, Thailog, and the Archmage had such great layers to them. The only major villains who were truly chiché were Hakon, Wolf, Jackal, and Hyena.
That is nothing called evil , people act for their desires or are completely mad none of them can be considered evil.
And also one of the Hunters, didn’t one of the brothers was reluctant hunting gargoyles and was sympathetic for them but then turned full vengeful when something happened to his siblings. They really did put thought into their villains
It's also one of the only shows - certainly children's shows - that portrayed a serious romantic relationship between a human and non-human. After dancing around it for a while, Goliath and Elisa accept their feelings for one another and even share a kiss. Pretty out there for a cartoon at the time.
Sonic would try this again in 2006. It did not go down as well.
Yeah that was something else, apparently they even adopt a kid so they become a full couple in Gargoyle comics
Exo-Squad did it better. That show had a very close relationship between a female human character and a male non-human character that ultimately resulted in the former professing love for the latter, but he (knowing that they cannot reproduce and that she'd be better off in a normal human relationship) gently lets her down by telling her that he will look forward to meeting her future husband and children. The poignancy of the whole scene is quite moving.
It was a Beauty and the Beast play.
@@15thCrypt That was the eventual plan, but the comics never got anywhere close to introducing that storyline before they were canned.
Technically, such a storyline had been done before with stuff like human and humanoid alien couples or human and demi-human fantasy race couples, but where Goliath and Elisa broke new ground was by having the non-human not look humanoid at all nor otherwise have a humanoid form/transformation. They truly were a Beauty and the Beast couple but with the "beast" not under a curse.
for the most part, gargoyles has a well-deserved reputation for sympathetic cool human and three-dimensional villains like Xanatos for example he is one of the best and coolest villain in fiction
One of my favorite lines is, "How do you like this trap, its my first attempt at truly cliche villainy."
That’s because he wasn’t so much a villain as he was a brilliant man with wealth and power who was driven to see just how far he could go. His only flaw was that in time things likes laws and morals got in the way of what he could achieve so he simply ignored them.
Gargoyles and Avatar: TLA are two of the greatest kid’s cartoons ever. Having complex antagonists is a primary feature of both (just not Ozai - he evil).
Put samurai jack, you thought aku was just a regular up until he finally have the opportunity to kill Jack, you realise he really mean it and wanted Jack to die.
Really gonna disrespect BTAS and expect no one notices huh?
@@oscarsalazar5876 Don't worry, it noticed, lol! But Gargoyles & Avatar have their place up there too!
@TrueYellowDart you made me spit out my food b/c I laughed so unexpectedly while reading you "just not Ozai - he evil" remark 🤣🤣
Yeah, Ozai was a really straightforward villain. His kids, on the other hand, were really well done, complex antagonists, so much that one of them (Zuko) had a redemption arc and the other (Azula) had a tragic (but not deadly) ending.
Gargoyles was and is an excellent show. The 90s had the best comic based animated series…
This, Spiderman, Batman, even Batman Beyond was a fun show.
X men the series
@@TheEnigmaticBM39 and didn’t they even have crossovers w/ X-Men and Spiderman? Laid a lot of under appreciated ground work besides the comics themselves for what the Marvel Cinematic Universe has become.
In alot of ways Batman The Animated Series and Gargoyles share alot of similarities in terms of the dark themes and tone and mostly taking place at night. Gargoyles def was ahead of their time and still holds weight.
@@AmariMarvelous that's because the two shows were created by the same people. Both great cartoons.
thefact this show is nearly 30 years old and the industry still hasn't caught up is compelling. the onlly thing close to it is again lex luthor in young justice but he's still a pale comparison. Demona is life though..... so damn complex...
Lex from the Tim verse animated JL comes close as well.
Not ashamed to say this show introduced me to Shakspear and his works!
It was the best use of Shakespeare I'd ever seen. MacBeth was hardcore.
@@Burahn Exactly, made him more awesome!
@@Burahn Even better, they used a historically accurate version of MacBeth and not the Shakespeare villainous traitor.
No property on Earth needs to be brought back like the Gargoyles, but only if Weisman shepherds it.
They would probably ruin it. Best just leave it
Very interesting that the ST actors who voiced Xanatos and Demona actually auditioned first for Goliath and Lisa.
So Marina Sirtis once again auditioned for one role and landed another.
So, that's why they're resentment is so palpable
What's also interesting is Elisa's VA influenced the character's design. When she got the role, Elisa was redesigned to match the look of her VA.
@@SaviorGabriel And Xanatos looks like he was redesigned to look like Jonathan Frake, too.
Gargoyles is one of Disney's masterpieces. The animation is very dark and is also aimed towards more mature audiences. On par with Batman: The Animated Series, Spawn, X-Men, and Iron Man.
Envelope-pushing 'kids' media will probably always be my favorite type. Avoiding gratuity isn't just dumbing the show down -- it's a _necessary pacing tool._ You have to be so much more deliberate with how and when and why you escalate.
It's like how PG-13 productions are allowed _one_ F-bomb, if they want it. When a game like Ocarina of Time has all the villains explode into fairy dust, until suddenly your human adversary _bleeds on the floor in front of you,_ it can give kids a lot of perspective that holds up on replay decades later. Respecting the audience like this goes such a long way, and Gargoyles nailed it.
i've been re-watching this series on Disney+ and it has been entertaining still even after all these years. It deserves a continuation
Criminally underrated show.
Not anymore, I’m about to watch this rn 😪🙌🏼🔥🔥
Needs to make a comeback!
@@Philosophical24 wont be dissaponted
@@symeoncarter8144 got through awakening parts 1-5, absolutely phenomenal and ahead of its time
@@Philosophical24 Yes Sir ! A classic! Glad you enjoyed it
Gargoyles needs a "gritty PG-13 reboot" like what they did with Power Rangers. Keep it animated, and bring back as much of the original voice cast as possible.
after what Weisman did with Young Justice once the reins came off, that's a big no-thanks from me. Let it just stay dead. Dude needs an editor to tell him he's a whackjob sometimes, just like Ditko and Kirby.
Just dropped in to say it was a really lovely surprise to be listening to this and go "Is that Michael Swaim?!" and find out it was! Such a treat to hear that fun, familiar guy!
Was reading to see if any one else mentioned the little bean's voice
Same. It took me by surprise. Glad to see him still making moves.
gargoyles was clearly ahead of its time. Such a well thought and casted series that it still stays fresh after 20+ years
Never expected to see much about gargoyles since its was from so long ago. It was one of my favorite shows as a kid. It's a very underrated show that deserves any and all respect it can get.
Gargoyles WILL ALWAYS be the BEST cartoon series of the 90’s
*cough* Batman *cough*
Cough Justice League
Cough x-men
It’s definitely up there.
let rasputinafreak have their opinion. Gargoyles was and is great and best of all holds up to time.
@@clusternate Batman is terrific, it and Gargoyles were the best. Justice League came in the 2000s. As for X-Men... re-watched it recently? The animation from Akom is cheap and atrocious, the voice direction is mediocre at best, laughable at worst, whenever they weren't cribbing from Claremont... it meandered aimlessly. Gargoyles had impeccable writing, beautiful animation, and A+ voice acting. It was the superior show, the better production.
The villains were so compelling because unlike two dimensional cartoon villains of the time, they weren’t evil for the sake of being evil. They were the result of all of their choices, experiences, and circumstances so even when they did something horrific or amoral you could understand what got them to that point and why they saw their actions as not only necessary, but justified.
Definitely one of my favorite Disney cartoons. Was Definitely b4 its time.
*ahead of it's time
@@llhaken thank you
Gargolyes was a gaddamn CLASSIC! 👌♥️🇵🇭
Whoever idea this was thank you
GARGOYLES should stay as a tv series/cartoon, and Hollywood should keep away from that show.
agreed
They won't listen to that.. they're probably been looking for something for a while now.
@@joester4life Sort of. Jordan Peele wanted to make a movie, but Disney just let him get too busy to work on such a project.
@@joester4life Disney has always hated this show though, they've sabotaged nearly every attempt at just.. releasing what they already had on DVD, or the new comic continuation, basically any logical time to profit they screwed it.
Gargoyles remains one of the best 90 cartoons and still holds strong today. Let the younger generations get to know thi gem of a series.
Xanatos is the physical manifestation of JUST AS PLANNED
I've always liked how they put in elements of fear, betrayal and alienation. Some if the worst problems in our world. Remember those people in book 3 who wanted the gargoyles dead but others wanted to protect? Nevertheless the gargoyles had pure hearts and helped humans anyway whether the hate them or not
swaim! always happy to hear my dude
Gargoyles was such an amazing show. Great job on this video IGN, nice to see Greg Weisman and Jonathan Frakes interviewed for it.
Gargoyles, Beastwars, TMNT, and Batman are my Childhood!
The memories of coming home from school to watch this, aye.might have to do a lil 2021 rewatch, this was a gem of a show
One of my favorite shows EVER. Mind-blowingly written
This show took a lot of inspiration from Batman: The Animated Series and other Bruce Timmverse shows. Probably that's why it has better villains than most the cartoons at that time.
Did you read that in an interview or something?
It would definitely be an awesome history of the shows being connected to each other.
I'm just wondering where you heard that, because they're only 1 year apart from each other so for one to inspire each other within only 1 year would def speak to how amazing & impactful Batman TAS is.
There are multiple documentaries (most recently on the HD release) about the making of Batman the Animated Series that showcase how they set the tone for animated television that didn't talk down to kids. Kevin Conroy even mentions friends at Disney calling him in a panic after having watched the first episode saying "Do you have any idea what you've done? We can't keep making the same old cartoons anymore now."
It's basically an open secret amongst the producers of many of the 90's shows that networks were galvanized into producing higher quality, story driven cartoons after the release of Batman the Animated Series.
Gargoyles was easily the best to follow in that wake.
Mr. Swaim narrating a video about Gargoyles? Two of my favorite things!
Oof, the way he pronounces Elisa's name. Almost makes me think he hasn't even seen the show. Just reading a script.
This video was written by Samantha Nelson.
So glad to see a retrospective of this. Any Gargoyles love is a plus in my book. In my mind, any animated villain list that doesn't have Xanatos, Demona, or Macbeth in it's Top Ten, is a list worth ignoring.
Kinda reminds me of Char and his "clones" in the Gundam Franchise (starting 1979) ... most of them had higher goals for the better of humanity and while they did seemingly lose most battles against the protagonist they came closer to their own goals most of the time.
Xanatos was the first to introduce me to the Illuminati!
...holup
@@estherwinchester3761 yeah coin, hand shakes everything…
@@estherwinchester3761 he was like one of their new and youngest members who would bend the rules quite often.
@@3012Chanstar The truly impressive part was that he was using them. Most people wouldn’t dare, but Xanatos had no fear.
It’s insane Disney never brought this back as a Disney+ exclusive bring back a lot of the old crew and remake it
It is on Disney plus it's been on there for while but no sadly it won't make a come back with the old crew as just a few weeks ago the voice actor for Hudson has passed away
@@youroldpaljake2288 they mean new episodes
@@nicholasmassengale8649 yea ik
Disney would ruin it by aiming it to a younger audience
@@englishboy993 idk.. some D+ shows is pretty dark.
This show was very adult, me and my friends loved it. Plus it had Keith David!
This was freakin amazing! Thank you!!!!! I've always said that Gargoyles is my favorite cartoon of all time!
David was the Giant that Goliath had to defeat.
Right? Maybe "tame" more than defeat, but playing the role of the "hero" tasked with outwitting a monster is certainly how he saw himself. So many brilliant layers of allegory.
No, Goliath is still as physically large and powerful as his Biblical namesake, and David is just as clever and capable of exploiting Goliath’s weaknesses as ‘his’ Biblical namesake.
@@paulchapman8023 No...you missed my point...won't make sense explaining lol
This is one of the best videos I've seen from ign
I've been waiting for them to turn it into a movie And Keith David must voice Goliath.
Great show and great to hear your voice Swaim.
This was my favorite show as a kid for all the reasons listed in the video. It felt so much more real Bc of the complexities. Loved it and still do. Can’t wait to share the series with my kids. Would love to see it come back on the small or big screen
Loved tf outta this show and Keith David's voice
This video couldn't have come at a better time... just finished rewatching the series a couple weeks ago.
Well said. This show was wayyyy ahead of its time
Gargoyles, taught us the greatest lesson in life not all people with off-putting appearance are evil. It taught us the villains are anti-heroes in pain. To look beyond the surface.
Gracias al internet pude ver esta serie otravez y es mejor de lo que recordaba, cuando era niño no apresiaba al maximo lo buena que era.
They did miss out on one of the most gloriously hammy villains on the show: Doctor Anton Sevarius. He was such a straightforward "for the evulz" antagonist with a flamboyant personality to match.
Gargoyles was absolutely amazing. Hopefully we'll get something new from the series...someday...
Gargoyles is still one of Disney's best shows EVER!
Great video. Soo nice hearing Mr Swain again.
It also redefined interspecies romance.
And gave Rule 34 artists new ideas
Also the reason I'm into goths
@@Ace-hj3ei Goths or Goliaths?
You can't possibly think that was anything new.
imagine this: a continuation, rework, remaster of Gargolyes today. Untold stories, new toylines, boundless profit. A new era of Gargoyles. *pikachu face*
It’s great to hear Michael Swaim on the mike talking about a topic he’s excited about!
Gargoyles had an impressive voice cast from Star Trek. Really hoping The Titan gets a spin off show and all these voices can come back and work together.
Greg Weissman & Genndy Tartakovsky, the two greatest animators of my '90s childhood ❤
Out of all of the old shows out there, this one deserves to get a reboot the most!
Wesiman wants to continue instead of a reboot
One can learn so much about writing and story creating watching this.
Nice to hear the voice of Michael Swaim again! :D
Great series! Great vid about it! And holy snacks-Michael Swaim!!!
Awesome video!
Wait... this guy is connected to three awesome series!? This man is Legendary!!!
Is that Michael Swaim from Cracked and Small Beans narrating for IGN? Can't wait to hear more, hopefully some funny opinion pieces as well.
Gargoyles was seriously far ahead of anything else. It's still untouchable.
Gargoyles was a not miss part of my day day when they were on. However, the non-kids aspect of animation they brought to television had already been explored and made a regular part of tv in Japan with anime, where non-kids subjects go all the way back to Astro Boy and Speed Racer in the 60's. American animation still can't get over the idea that the shows MUST be kid friendly, even if those same kids had shows repeatedly they are just fine with more real life situations and subjects than we have EVER given them credit for.
Yoooo Swaim Gargoyles was actually the best show back in the day
I'd like to see an episode about an ancient kingdom called Cracked that is brought low by the evil wizard, Interfero, who causes the kingdom to collapse and our hero of the episode to flee to the province of Igni to talk about cartoon villains or something.
4:40, and because he wanted revenge. That was a plot point in the episode. When the Weird Sisters make him ask himself if seeking revenge has ever brought him happiness before.
Is that Michael Swaim from the Cracked narrating?!
Just realised Gargoyles is on Disney Plus. Started watching it all over again.
Thank you for this. Gargoyles is dear to my heart to this day.
It’s one of my favourite cartoons of all time. This video makes me happy!
Just started watching this again a few weeks ago-childhood classic!!
ngl Xanatos is the prime example of Lawful Evil especially in earlier seasons. Dude was a menace but he also had that code of honor and standard
This was one of those TV shows for kids that didn't feel like it was insulting the intelligence of it viewers AKA kids
There's so much more to Gargoyles, this video barely scratched the surface
This show made me want to be more as a child and inspired me as a youth. Thank you.
This… just makes me so, so happy.
Love this show. I'm hoping it will get another continuation, either in comics or animation.
Sadly not mainly due to the fact that our poor Hudson or the voice actor passed away just a few weeks ago
It’s true but the the fun fact about animation voice actors can be replaced
@@youroldpaljake2288 Yeah, Hudson passed away on August 29.
Ashes to ashes. All is one with the wind.
@@kevinlee7678 it almost felt like no one cared, glad you commented Hudson was really someone you could take advice from especially when it comes to talking about time.