Prophecy Philosophy - Sunny's Spiel | Warriors Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Fair warning, this episode gets a fair bit more into theorizing rather than analysis about halfway through, but it’s something I think we need a reasonable explanation for, even if there isn’t any evidence to prove or disprove it.
Prophecies have been used so much in the series, in so many forms, that it’s amazing how little we know about them. The simple answers like Starclan creating them to guide cats towards some goal were disproven bit by bit the more we’ve learned about Warriors lore. So let’s see if we can’t find some logic in this mess.
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There is another case where an event was predetermined but it never came to pass. In Code of the Clans, the code based around the safety of kits was made after 3 kits drowned in the river and 3 Riverclan cats didn’t try to help them. All three of those kits would have grown up, and one of those three cats, Smallkit, would have become Windclan’s leader.
Usually hate the idea of determinism but the idea that there is some mystical being trying to help these cats by maybe having visions of *likely* futures rather than guaranteed ones, and that Starclan is constantly getting in the way by giving them to the wrong cats/at the wrong time is both fascinating and really funny
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Mystical Clearsight-like being: “I have seen into the future and now I share it with you in the form of a prophecy. Please, be careful with-”
Starclan: *takes it and yeets it into the brain of whatever medicine cat is sleeping at the moment*
Mystical Being: “I-”
accurate
I hate the idea of determinism. It's one of the main reasons I left my church. It didn't matter what I achieved what I earned, it was said that God has simply gifted me with this even though it was my agency and actions. When something bad happens instead of looking at it and trying to fix it, they say it's gods will and everything happens for a reason, and while some may find this comforting I see it as a deity taking away people's agency but never being held responsible for the actions that they commit or let pass.
Not to mention people who are all too human will use those ideas to manipulate people to their own advantage :/
E X A C T L Y
Thank you
In Yellowfang's book it is implied that Brokenstar had two destinies to follow, one where he is a good leader and one where he isn't. I wish prophecies would work that way so that there is more than one outcome.
I started writing a fanfiction where Bloodclan won, and decided that in this AU blood ruling the forest /does/ mean that Scourge beats everyone, rather than the alternative interpretation that a lot of cats die. Then the "four will become two" part is a message of hope, saying that even though the clans are defeated the survivors can still come together and form a second group of cats living at the outskirts of their old territory.
I saw another comment say this, but my first thought too on “blood will rule the forest” was that there would be mass death. Firestar even comments at one point that, win or lose, they would take heavy losses.
As for the blood will spill blood prophecy, maybe it meant to tell Leafpool that once this happened all immediate threats were past? It did start with “before peace” so it could be interpreted as “once Bramble kills Hawk it’s all good, fam.”
Now, In my opinion, prophecies and forbidden romances are the two things that I think have the most potential to ramp up a story. The best example of this is actually between Lionblaze and Dovewing in my opinion. They could've used them as foils for destiny vs free-will along with the finding love vs staying loyal argument. More so since they were mentor {Lionblaze} and apprentice {Dovewing}. Since Lionblaze was so focused on the prophecy he was desperate to fulfill it to prove his loyalty. He even took Cinderheart as a mate. His second choice seeing how he couldn't get over Heathertail for awhile. On the other paw, Dovewing really only thought about it when it was questioned and focused on living her life. Realizing that she didn't quite fit in and eventually even left after the prophecy was fulfilled to be with someone she wanted to be with.
I'm of the opinion that the "blood will rule the forest" portion of the prophecy more or less has to do with the fact that lots of people die in the Battle with Bloodclan. Which would make Warriors entirely determinist. This is even showed in Goosefeather's Curse where Goosefeather's actions to stop the prophecy is what made the prophecy come true.
Whoever or Whatever gives the prophecies and when doesn't matter because they do and they always happen when they do. Classic stories like Oedipus Rex and Macbeth have prophecies that directly come true specifically because the affected parties know it exists and these are classic examples of determinism.
This determinism is also shown with Tigerclaw and Brokenstar. Starclan in Yellowfang's Secret explicitly tells Yellowfang that Brokenkit will turn out evil and then urges her to kill Brokenkit, even though they know she will never do it. Yellowfang has this weird scene with Starclan where they say it was Brokenstar's destiny to be the way he was but implied he could have been good through his own choices, but he never does and he followed his destiny to a T so it doesn't matter. It's like Starclan wanted Yellowfang and Brokenstar to break the prophecy even though they knew it wouldn't happen.
The same thing happens with Pinestar and Tigerclaw. Starclan doesn't actually give a prophecy to Pinestar to kill Tigerkit or that he'll be evil. He's explicitly told that unless Pinestar took action then Tigerclaw would be evil. In this situation it feels like Starclan received a prophecy about Tigerkit and his evilness but told no one about it and told Pinestar to stop this evil kit from being evil without relaying the actual contents of the prophecy. Which led to Pinestar misinterpreting the message as to kill Tigerkit so he left Thunderclan, ensuring that Tigerkit would grow up to be a bad person. These 2 situations are Starclan trying and failing to get prophecies to fail.
This is why I firmly believe that Warriors is 100% determinist. It's honestly very surprising just how consistant the series is with the prophecies and their accuracy and determinism. The only exception is the "Blood will rule the forest" if you only take the interpretation to mean Bloodclan winning. But again I still think differently.
BloodClan should have won, and scourge should have had at least a short reign as God as he ruled the forest.
honestly i feel like some ensure the more positive outcomes over possible other outcomes. pushing them to complete one of possible many or few more favorable outcomes possible. whether that ends up in success or failure
talking about determinism in class: im sleeping
sunnyfall talking about determinism in warrior cats: WIDE AWAKE
Man your videos never fail to entertain me :3 you are tied with bright gaurdian Akira as my favorite youtuber ever
I like the pictures you used to represent the prophecies!
I totally agree with you on the philosophy side of things, especially considering that in Goosefeather's Curse he definitely can't do anything to change the events he is shown
"There's someone who gives messages to StarClan."
OMG CLEARSIGHT CAT!
Omg yes-
It's always interesting to see how the clans react to the prophecies. Sometimes it just feels like starclan is just guessing on what may happen.
this makes me imagine the cats betting on what the outcome will be with there ideas being very biased XD
The prophecy aspect is by my absolutely favorite part. The way they work with the characters and play with our expectations. The WAY the come true makes it fun to see how it plays out
im only a little in but im going to say it now so i dont forget, but i really appreciate there being captions!
Your first upload since I subscribed. Only four videos, and I was hooked. I really look forward to more analysis!
Another super interesting video! It was really nice to hear someone talk about this, since the role of prophecies in warrior cats is something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about as well. (Heck, I once wrote an entire long fanfiction inspired by the theme of destiny versus free-will when it comes to prophecy in warrior cats.) I think you really hit the nail on the head with most of your points, and I agree SO much about the point that prophecies should influence character behavior. (The uselessness of the blood will spill blood one especially drives me up the wall!)
Also, I definitely agree with your conclusion that the prophecies in Warriors are deterministic, although I wish Warrior Cats would lean a bit more into the idea that the prophecies can come true in a multiple of different ways. They've dabbled in it a bit, like for example, "blood will rule the forest" could mean that the Clans are fated to lose, and BloodClan will rule the forest, or that the battle will just be bloody (heavy loss of life) even if the Clans win. Bluestar's prophecy does something similar with "Even the greatest flames can be extinguished by water." Like she literally dies by drowning, thus fulfilling the prophecy. But, I always saw "water" as also warning her against falling in love with Oakheart because if she ran away with him to RiverClan or revealed the fact that she had half-Clan kits with him, then she would be seen as a traitor to ThunderClan. So, her "fire," meaning her potential as a great leader and/or asset to ThunderClan, would be extinguished.
I think it would be really cool to have a prophecy in Warriors which the cats scramble to prevent happening (or actually succeed in preventing happening in at least that one regard) only for it to come true in a way totally different than what they expected. I think it would be really interesting to see how the characters deal with having so wildly misinterpreting the meaning.
I really wouldnt be surprised if this series of cat books written by... if im correct, a bunch of white christian women, was going on theological determinism rather than any kind of existentialism
As far as I know, all of the Erins are white British women but I don’t think their religion(s) are known, but given that Britain is pretty staunchly Christian, I wouldn’t be surprised either.
There are a few prophecies you didn’t mention such as the one that mentions “the forest will be shaken to its roots”
Your videos are so good, you deserve wayy more subs.
I second this!
I third this!
Love it! Thank you so much for the great entertainment!
Oh this is a thoughtful and fresh look at warriors' prophecies! Thanks!
How do you have an entire video like this and not talk about goosefeather.
I'm so excited by your videos! You do great in-universe analysis and research :) Plenty of others have done them, I'm aware, but would you ever be interested in talking about world building and plot points you'd like to see, or doing "fix-its" for the topics / series you talk about? Thank you so much for the content!
I believe that the prophesized cats, mostly Firestar, Jayfeather, Lionblaze, and Hollyleaf can change the predetermined events. Jayfeather saves Poppyfrost's life when she was supposed to die, and by the same logic Firestar can defeat bloodclan when they were supposed to rule.
Eyyyyyy I'm early! Great video! :)
I really love all your videos! It’s cool seeing you analyze warriors! I also finished reading the two paws of stars books you’ve finished so far, and they’re so good! I love all the changes you made!
Something about the blood will rule the forest prophecy - I'm pretty sure it's just telling Firestar there will be a battle and lots of blood will be spilled, regardless. And that's entirely true, it did happen. It also warns Firestar of bloodclan winning if they don't win this battle. It's determinist and a warning in one message.
Ok ok i know I’m LATE but but listen!!! I like the idea of prophecies NOT being determinism bc of the potential that has. Like, a med cat who receives a prophecy, changes the fate so the thing doesn’t happen, BUT something worse happens instead!! THINK OF THE ANGST!! THE CHARACTER ARCS
Like, overcoming guilt, an evil med cat arc bc of their anger at StarClan
Didn't the prophecy in Bluestar's book lead to her giving her kits over to Oakheart, and to Mosskit dying?
Very interesting! I'm glad I finally came back to watch this one. I really like the drawings you used for the different prophecies.
The erins new about the events ahead of time!
Your videos are so good, and well researched. Clearly everyone else agrees or this video would have at least 1 dislike.
Your analysis are always really well thought out and thorough, making them all really nice to listen to and think about
Thanks for making such good content!
Your videos are great! Looking forward to the next one!
I think midnight is the one that sends the prophecy since she foretold the destruction of the forest before starclan told the clans and knew the power of three prophecy long before starclan
O my god you are amazing sunnyfall
I love your vidéo
My favorite prophety is They are three
And my favorite prophety cat is feathertail
Yes 2:52
This kinda makes me thinking. I mean if it already happened (I never was actually a fan of prophecys because they will just happened, whatever you do and that was....well you could ignore it 80% of time and it still happens) why even listen to prophecys? Kinda strange that the cats still listens to the prophecys and knowing, well we could ignore that it stil happens. But like you said the prophecy for Alderheart was something that really isn't just : Ignore it it will happen anyways. It was interpretating and trying to make the prophecy real and thats what I liked so much. Without this prophecy Twigkit and Violetkit would die definatly!
I think the Bloodclan prophecy the blood will rule over the forest is not Bloodclan. It is the blood of the cats I think. At that fight many cats died
I was like “ oi wonder how her channels going since last I saw she had 2 0 0 s u b s - “
Some of the prophecys were kind of stupid
Hmm...