Honestly more than anything I think it's bizzare to name your child after a dead celebrity you don't know. Naming your kid after celebrities in general is weird imo This isn't even acknowledging the fact that the celebrity in question suffered for years with mental illness and depression and took their own life. That's a very heavy thing to dump on your child from day 1.
idk if you arnt going to name your child after something you love then what? I mean I really dont want to put any expectations or baggage on my child with their name but it seems unavoidable to me. ofc there is always degrees and some stuff will have more or less or different meanings but im not ready to write off the whole concept of naming after a celebrity
@@koreandersim your child's name doesn't need to be your favorite thing in the world, you can just name your son Joe because you simply like the name period
OP later updated that his wife has changed her mind and that they've decided to name the child Lucien Tadhg (Irish names meaning shining and poet) to be able to pay tribute while still being respectful.
On the naming topic, I think to me it's not even an appreciation vs appropriation thing rather than... Your child is not a memento. Your child is going to be a living, breathing and sentient human being that will have its own opinions experiences and personality and giving them a name that has such a deep meaning not only to you, but to a whole bunch of people (because they were a celebrity that died tragically), is putting a lot of pressure on them that will shape the experiences they go through and... Yeah they might resent you for it. Also I don't know how comfortable I'd be constantly calling out to my child with the name of a famous dead person that was really important in my life.
This was a great video! I’m Korean, but I’m adopted (specifically I have white parents). When you’re an adopted minority in the US, especially adopted by people who aren’t the same race as you, you unfortunately miss out on a lot of the familial traditions and cultural aspects of your origin culture, but still deal with all of the racism. For instance, I didn’t even know what Chuseok was until I got into K-pop a couple of years ago. This makes it difficult for me to formulate an opinion about cultural appropriation. I feel like I’m affected by cultural appropriation in the sense that people sometimes appropriate to be malicious, but at the same time I am not in a position to help draw the line between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation, simply because I have not experienced Korean culture the way most Koreans have. With the situation mentioned in the video, I find less fault in the fact that she’s naming her child a Korean name and more fault in the fact she’s naming that person after someone who passed in such an unfortunate way.
As an another Asian adoptee, I get this and send hugs if wanted. Sometimes our upbringing makes it really difficult for us to know if our opinion on such topics is valid or not
I wish people who adopted children with a cultural history different from theirs took the time to teach them and immerse them as best they could in their culture and language. I know I'd be so frustrated only later learning everything I'd missed out on
@@tsundereyoongi3869 I think it depends. My parents did make some effort. I remember going to a Korean heritage event when I was younger. My parents also tried to introduce me to Korean, of which I wasn’t interested. This is somewhat anecdotal, but lots of the microaggressions I received in grade school were about how I wasn’t “Asian enough”. Is it my parents’ fault that they did not make a greater effort to involve me in Korean culture or is it the fault of others who believe that I must reflect a certain culture in order to be properly considered Korean?
@@tsundereyoongi3869 To be fair to my parents, they did try to get me interested to my birth country's culture (Taiwan), but I didn't really care until adulthood and was much more into Japanese and Korean culture during my teenagehood and young adulthood. I only started wanting to know more about my culture in the last few years. It's to be noted I didn't grow up around an Asian community to relate to, nor did any school I attended have many Asians (most of us were adoptees) who could really give me a peek of what culture I was missing on.
Regardless of anything else, it's a red flag to me that one parent would unilaterally get to decide the child's name. Are they not partners in this? I couldn't imagine being so inflexible as to insist upon a name my partner is dead set against. Very odd.
I also think that the reason why the younger generations of the diaspora like the 2nd gen and younger have such a strong response to things like cultural appropriation compared to 1st gen immigrants and people from the home country is because they are usually the ones that face the brunt of the racism and ridicule. They are the ones that can see the more thinly veiled racism since they don't have the language barrier that the 1st gens do and they are more likely to actually encounter racist situations compared to people from the home country or even first gens that tend to congregate together. So when situations like the qipao prom girl come up, they're more likely going to think "If I wore my traditional dress to prom, I would be ridiculed" or even "I did wear my traditional dress to prom and I was ridiculed" Then they see a white girl wearing it and seeing people not batting an eye at it or even praising her for it. That's going to make that 2nd gen and younger diaspora pretty upset. It's very much a situation of "I have to face so much stuff to be able to feel safe wearing my cultural dress while you can just put it on and take it off without having to consider any of that."
That is an excellent point. Surely any Korean-American kid with that name might get funny looks and might even be told to "go back to China" (ugh, don't racist love that one?). But there comes this white kid and his name will be seen as exotic and original. So even if choosing a Korean name isn't done with malice, the choice requires the awareness to recognize that some cultural elements are part of someone else's reality and you're taking them in isolation, unintentionally imbuing them with your privilege. This is not at all the parents fault, of course. They're not the racist ones and they're not "stealing" from another culture. I just wish they think of the implicacies of their choice for the minorities they're appreciating.
I live in a very culturally diverse city in Asia where there are many different kinds of east asian cultures but very strong western and sometimes middle eastern influences. Since I grew up here, the topic of cultural appropriation feels very off for me. I never really thought much about it since I was used to culture being mixed. That was how I thought, however, until I saw Spider Man: No Way Home. Context, I'm filipino. Context yet again: there was an old lady who spoke bisaya. More context: my mom's from mindanao. When I heard that old lady speak in the movie I was so shocked that I couldn't stop laughing at how absurd it was. I'm not going to lie, I was happy when I first realized that there was a filipino person in the movie. Who doesn't like feeling represented? That's until I heard her speak+the way the movie seemed to strongly emphasize the filipino aspects like "Oh look here's PANDESAL. lets throw the PANDESAL. Did you call it bread? no, it's PANDESAL. PANDESAL." That's when I realized that it's more marketing rather than sincerity which made it all the more bitter. I know how cultural appreciation looks like; I just need to go out on the streets and I could find it quickly. A tourist wearing cultural outfits they've bought from a stall is not cultural appropriation. A street vendor mixing eastern and western foods to come up with some fusion style is not cultural appropriation, but it may be edging it(depending on the person and the intent. Fusion food is just what happens when you have alot of cultures interacting). There's a special wonder and awe when a person appreciates a culture and it makes me so happy to see it. It feels horrible, though, when you see movies, tv shows, and popular media using your own culture for "POC rep" without even trying to give some effort. It's like showing the world just what kind of people we are: that's a delicate role and you have to treasure it.
I'm not Filipino but I'm aware you guys have a strong East Asian diaspora, but I think the difference is that they've integrated without mishaps(? I think?), so the idea of cultural appropriation in there would more-so count as EA "orientalism in a way? I think it was cool that they had a tiny bit representation in NWH but I guess they learned to cater to a demographic, but rather insincerely. The way Asian people spoke in media has always been made a laughing stock. I think there's an emerging generation of kids who realize that Asian comedians do that out of bad faith.
Yeah I think intent is the big thing here. Like if it was an indie film directed by someone actively trying, hearing that sort of mistake is forgivable, but when it's a situation of a major blockbuster where multiple people should be doing research and you aren't privy to the ins and outs of the direction, it can come across as insincere and they should have done better. Similarly, someone who comes up with fusion style because they like both styles is perfectly fine, but if someone does so because they have some twisted reason to make another style more like a different style they prefer it's no longer fine and could be called cultural appropriation trying to change it.
I was born in the Philippines but grew up in the US, for me that scene was actually really fun and reminded me of my own childhood of my grandparents coming home and trying to feed me and my friends and not able to speak English so I would translate for them. I know it was probably some forced representation but it made me happy, especially because the Filipino character, Ned, is played by a Filipino-American actor and I'm sure he had some input into how that scene was written. I think the grandma character's accent was a bit off because she spoke her lines slow and clear when usually we speak fast and loud haha. I don't really remember them saying anything about the pandesal on the table but for me, I got really excited to see those little rolls of bread that were so important to our breakfast. No hate and not saying you are wrong to feel that way as I agree, I just think I've seen much more soulless attempts at that kind of thing and having a seen where they spoke our language, for a lot more lines I thought they would, with two Filipino actors was at least a nice gesture or attempt, for what little it meant. But like Ying said just those two actors saying it was good doesn't mean every Filipino will have that experience just as you shared, and goes to show there is a huge gray area of what feels good, what feels ok, what feels bad, and what is just plain wrong.
@@chaosemperor24 i completely agree! As much as I feel bitter towards it, its impractical to want it to stop. They don't need my permission to get filipino representation nor do I need theirs if I want to create some sort of American character. My main point of complaint is that sometimes there isnt any care when it comes to showing different cultures to the masses. I love the mix and mashing of culture; it feels like a breath of fresh air. I dont want to gatekeep and I love sharing as much as I can, but it doesnt mean that I dont value it endearingly. Its like pottery. Culture could be molded and changed into different shapes, and the variety and mix of different styles is beautiful. Yet it takes a great deal of care when handling it lest it will just fall apart into a mess of clay clumps. Random clay clumps are not a vase despite being the thing the makes it. Same thing goes for culture, I believe. It's super gray and it always depends on the person looking at it. As much as we need to take great care when it comes to appreciating another culture and bringing it to the spotlight, the consumers as well need a great deal of tolerance to not jump the gun, is what I believe in
omg this is how I felt with Dr Strange 2 and america Chavez. her spanish was ridiculous, but on the contrary- the recent Puss in Boots movie had perfect spanish incorporation
I went to a famous traditional onsen in Japan before, and as a brown-skinned Southeast Asian I got irritated, shocked, hostile looks (mostly from older people) when I dipped into the pool despite following all the onsen etiquettes based from my prior experiences. Their gazes only relaxed when my Japanese friends joined me in the same pool (there were many various options) and chatted with me. I guess they became relieved upon learning that I was invited to participate, instead of intruding into their culture.
Man some people really just trying to have a bath ong. While Onsen do have societal norms etc. I do not think it is fair to just ban people that are not indigenous from enjoying it. The concept of a hot spring is not purely japanese and it shouldn't be treated like it is closed off to others because it's a public facility, just like any other public facility.
I mean, its isn't as bad as naming your kid Kylo Ren or Daenerys, but why would you do that to your kid. Hes probably gonna run to get his name changed as soon as hes able.
@@mogosbinted7660 it's was coined by a George R R Martin and it's first use was for a fictional character, so it's kinda cringey. It does sound cool though.
TW - Discussion of Jonghyun I debated commenting this but I feel like the first OP's wife was not flawed in wanting to name her child after Jonghyun. Naming kids after celebrities is a genuinely questionable topic but in OP's wife's case, I kind of understand her thought process. When people think of Jonghyun, particularly non-Shawols (shinee's fandom name), always seem to associate him with the tragic suicide and his torment from seasonal affective depression. I'm pretty sure OP's wife, as a Shawol, remembers him as the skilled singer-songwriter-producer that was witty, unique and truly a gem to the music industry. In her mind, it's likely that she isn't naming her son _solely_ due to his passing, but rather in the honour of the musician. That being said, it is debatable to "honour" someone else with your child, since your child will grow up to be their own person. I am sure OP's wife means no harm. But as Ying said, it'll be better to talk to their Korean friends (if they have any) first regarding this. Also, naming your children after names from a culture that isn't your own is completely okay as long as you don't mean harm. (It happens all the time where I'm from, yet for the most part people don't frankly care. The whole being worried about naming appropriacy vs. culture seems to be a very western-centric topic from my observations) The fact that OP's wife thought through of the Hanja beforehand shows that she is very well aware of the culture, which is frankly impressive. Their race should not determine the appropriacy of names, but considering the fact that the father is concerned, perhaps they could make Jonghyun the middle name instead. I also want to mention that the redditor who commented "your child should not be a tool for your fangirling" was correct, but also wildly tone deaf when it comes to the situation of naming the child after Jonghyun in particular (as well as taking into count how much OP's wife appreciates Shinee). (Though the redditor may not have known the seriousness of the topic)
I agree with a lot of what you said, thank you for writing out so well what i was thinking too! Just a heads up about a little bit of wording, as you said many nonshawols see not much past jjongs death while shawols work hard to make sure he is remembered as the person he actually was, so putting his name as the trigger warning (when really it is his death that is potentially triggering, not him as a person, who is so much more) is not the best idea. Totally unintentional and well meant on your side of course - thank you for being considerate to put a TW, but generally shawols prefer to use TW // Dec 18th , suicide
I have also made a comment in the original post and just like you I understand where the wife is coming from, especially as a Shawol myself - I just don‘t think it‘s a good idea to give a kid an excentrique name due to a fandom. For me it‘s like if somebody who likes Harry Potter names their kid after a name in the book and then the kid has to deal with being related to that fandom all their life - and maybe even grows to hate the fandom due to always being associated with it. But it‘s definitely an interesting situation, I wonder what came of it!
I have a Japanese name even though I don’t have a drop of Japanese blood in me, luckily it can be shortened to an American sounding nickname. I really hope that kid doesn’t end up like me, every time someone hears my full name they get a very confused look, I’ve even had a few people say “ but isn’t that a Japanese name?”. It’s embarrassing when I have to tell someone that I have a Japanese name despite being born in Idaho.
@@Aki-gb8gm depends. If the name is not too difficult then people don’t really care. But if you live in an area with mostly like for example English names, suddenly hearing someone named something Japanese might cause confusion if the person doesn’t look Japanese. Like why that name if nobody in your family has Japanese roots or something. (I live in Europe for reference)
@@brindleface9316 Oh yeah I'm from a European country too. My name is from a African culture but it sounds pretty similar to names that are popular in my country and is easy to pronounce. My parents just loved the meaning and it doesn't sound too out there. I think there is a lot of nuance in this topic, I feel like choosing names from other cultures is ok, as long as its not gonna be a hinderance for the child and not chosen out of obsession with a specific culture.
Could even use the middle name slot if they're hellbent on going with another culture's name. I don't think it's appropriation vs appreciation here, as this women clearly loves the culture to the point she has actually learned the language. However, I think what's important here is what's best for the child. Perhaps naming him after someone with such a tragic story isn't the best idea. Not to mention how other people will react to a white person with two fully white parents that doesn't live in Korea but has a Korean name. Of course, we can say that how people react is their fault and doesn't concern them, but that doesn't stop people from thinking the name is weird here and judging/bullying the kid.
the cho chang dig LOL i personally think that naming a child is the responsibility of both parents (if possible) instead of one parent deciding based on their own desires, fandoms, etc, and especially weird given the context of this specific case. it's important to consider the impact that this kind of decision will leave on the child, so you touched on a lot of really great points there!
I think this isn't even an appropriation ver appreciation argument, but more a societal perception of what race/ethnicity/nationality is... like, her calling is "appreciation" isn't entirely wrong and don't need to ask permission, but the whole context of the death of the celebrity is a lot of emotional baggage for a kid to carry + the fact the parents of other children will inevitably reflect their biases of race/ethnicity/nationality onto the kid's peers. It's not the same like online with nicknames and then the whole conversation about cultural and linguistic ties to names that make it messy. Like, for a nickname and chosen names, you chose a name and it comes with those ties that others in society project into it, so as parents, YOU NEED to consider that when naming a child. If they both end up going with the mother's choice, I do hope the kid has a decent time navigating their identity. OP admits they are VERY much white, so its more a question of if they're actually going to really consider their kid's future feelings on that matter.
really late to this but as a chinese american i often feel like i have no place in the appreciation vs appropriation discourse because i know so little about chinese culture that i genuinely can’t tell if it’s appropriation or not 😭 and then i have to factor in whether it was a genuine mistake or if it was out of malice/racism… it’s weird because sometimes i see native chinese people orientalizing/sexualizing their own culture to appeal to western audiences (side-eyeing mihoyo real hard rn) so that just confuses me even more lmao. i feel guilty that i can’t come up with a conclusive answer half the time when it comes to this kind of discourse, but reading through other people’s opinions is honestly really interesting
There's so many comments here I would want to respond to but I'm literally already rambling so I won't. Clearly this is a very personal issue for me lol What I will say tho, is that I have a notably Japanese first name (my mother is from Japan) and I am mixed (my father is white). And I CONSTANTLY get asked about my name. Because everyone wants to know why I, ambiguously ethnic looking person, am named the way I am. And sure, for a lot of people, it most likely stems out of curiosity, probably because a lot of POC born in the US don't often have notably ethnic names. But that's not the only reason why they ask. They ask because they also want "proof" that I have the right to be named the way I am named. Otherwise, conversations about my name would stop at "oh that's a cool name!". But they don't. I get it from Asian people as well, because I don't look Asian enough to them. I get it from White people, who can't tell that I'm Asian. Everyone for some reason NEEDS to know why I have this name. People used to get annoyed at me for not knowing what my name meant (I know now as a result). "Why don't you know that? You should know that!". These questions are often a test for POC in the West. And if you fail that test, you're all the weirder for it. You were already weird just by having that name in the first place mind you, it's just weirder now when the cultural tie isn't blatantly apparent. And let me tell you, it's exhausting. I at least can be like, "my mother is from Japan" and that can close out the conversation temporarily. But that conversation always comes back. I don't know how this kid is going to navigate these conversations, that will inevitably happen, and how he'll have to tell people "i'm named after my mother's favorite kpop star". Not only are these conversations uncomfortable to have in the first place (when was the last time you asked Stephanie where her name was from, what it meant and why she's named that?), but also not having a cultural tie to a name in the West where whitewashing has been so dominant? Where you kind of need to have a cultural tie in order to "justify" why your name is that? In a western society where first names are at the forefront of your individual identity? I can't imagine how frustrating and exhausting that will be for him. I spent my entire youth wishing that my first name wasn't my first name. I wanted my typically Western middle name to be my first name. At least that way, maybe people would stop othering me. I'm grown up now, and no longer feel that way, but only because I know my name was only part of the issue (turns out it's my looks primarily that are the issue). But the scars of being ashamed of my cultural heritage since I was a child, even before I knew what culture and race were, still haunt me to this day. The impacts it had to me and my identity growing up too are things I will never forget. For a kid who will otherwise have a typical white identity, in a place where that is the norm, that comes with all the privileges attached, I can't imagine how strange it will be for them to have a first name entirely unaligned with that. All just because his mom is a kpop fan. Her knowing Korean and knowing the hanja for this name aren't going to magically erase the experiences that her child will ultimately bear the brunt of, alone at that. Do I think that's unfair? Sure, I would love to live in a world where this isn't an issue at all. But we don't live in that world, and there's plenty of studies that show how ethnic names in Western society can impact you in other places, like applying for jobs. I think she's being really selfish here, not only for not working with her partner to name their child, but for also selfishly choosing to ignore the context surrounding her and the impact it will have on her child specifically, just because she's a fan of Jonghyun. I can't relate to stan culture, so I might be missing something here, but that doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to insist on something like this imo.
This is how you get Kevins "Kevinism" refers to a phenomena specifically in Germany where names are pulled out of their historic/social context and given out rather willy nilly which in turn means that they morph into a perceived marker of lower social classes in turn.
As a Korean who was born and raised, it’s complicated because as someone who has now lived in the US for a while I am flattered and also weirded out at the same time 😂. I’m flattered because she appreciated our culture so much to learn the language and even the hanja. That’s like REALLY impressive. So it honestly seems like it’s not appropriation. HOWEVER I’m weirded out because the child is going to experience some HEAVY bullying and confusion while growing up. Is she ignoring the possibility of a traumatic childhood for her fangirling? Also no one will ever connect her son as HER son. And sadly, in reality, no one will take her son seriously with an Asian name (whilst not being Asian) in a western country. Having a Korean name for a middle name sounds like the best option.
I saw Jonghyun and I immediately clicked the video Also, I think that qipao photo was irritating because that pose……… Oh but TW - Jonghyun and fandom reaction My mom was deep in the fandom then. She was one of the international fans, flying to Korea and Japan to attend all their concerts, doing GOs, and connecting with fans all over the world. When he passed…. Fans passed too. People were contacting all their friends who had him as their bias because they were concerned. That’s all I have to say.
Overall, as an Indian who's arguably too American for my own good(LMAO), I'd take up more the issue that she's naming her son after a dead singer than anything to do with cultural appropriation. From what other folks in the comments say, the singer died of really tragic circumstances, and honestly, as much as strangers on the internet can argue and not think it's okay, it's the child plus parents that'll have to deal with having that name everyday of their lives, and as such, I'd think at a later point in life, maybe it'd be poignant if the child at least would be given the option to change their name if they don't like it(once they learn of the origin and of the singer who died so tragically), to another name.
I'm not too fussed about the cultural appropriation aspect of this situation, it doesn't seem like it's being done for attention or is disrespectful to Koreans. If I went to India and met an Indian guy named Jeff I might be a bit curious and amused but I can't imagine getting upset (though I'd defer to people within that culture if feelings about names might be different for them). I would just hope as a parent you realize that you get to pick the name, but it's THEIR name, that they will live their life with. Even if they're not bullied, how many times are they going to have the same conversation explaining why that's their name? It does seem a bit ahole-y to make your child's life more difficult to satisfy your own feelings, and it will probably end up with the kid having some resentment toward their mom for it.
There are actually quite a number of Indians who have Western names. A lot of these Indians either have some British ancestry, or they are Christians. There are also some Indian names that are the same or similar to Western names, like Paul.
naming a baby.. ahh yes. as i myself have disliked the names that my parents gave me (due to bullying), for the past few years i’ve been trying to find a different name. aside from the cultural aspect of this topic, if they go with Jonghyun or some other Korean name and the kid is white (prob growing up in Ireland), it is very likely he’ll be bullied and may or may not want to change his own name. that would prob deeply hurt the mom since Korea is so important to her… imo would just be better off to name the baby an english name that has a similar meaning, and keep the Korean names to, like Ying said, pets and such
This is such a conflictive topic, many times it’s so difficult to distinguish when the actions have good intentions and when they don’t. It would be nice if we could all appreciate each others cultures. About the prom pic, I’m white, but for me what makes it worse is the fact that the girls are marking a hand gesture that’s not commonly used in western culture, with the girl with the Chinese dress in the middle of the pic. For me that’s what makes it look more like she’s cosplaying
The hand gesture did not help at all, but speaking as someone who was middle/high school age at that time, that was actually a pretty common group photo pose for middle/high schoolers, at least from what I saw online at the time and at my school. I think it was based on a meme. If she wasn't wearing a qipao, I don't think that would have been a big deal, but a qipao with that gesture definitely looks sus.
@@lailahuang4575 ohhh I didn’t know that was “popular” at the time, this was my first time seen the pic. Maybe it wasn’t badly intentioned, but the combination (qipao + hand gesture) def doesn’t help her. Also, thanks for writing qipao, I didn’t know how it was written and didn’t want to make a mess
@@mercedesa1466 Yeah that's what helped the negative responses to the photo spread, the hand gesture was coincidental for the time yet a lot of people did not know that since it was pretty much just a middle/high school thing causing them to think they were connected
As someone who has experience with having a name that carries a lot of trauma, I don’t think you should put that on a child. I know it’s not the exact same as the situation with Jonghyun, but before I transitioned and changed my name, I was named after my deceased uncle. His birth had a lot of complications and was very traumatic for my grandma because she had to have several blood transfusions and nearly died. My uncle unfortunately passed not long after his birth, adding more trauma to the situation. His death also contributed to my grandparents divorce, and I don’t think my grandma ever really healed from the experience. She really struggles with her mental health to this day. At times growing up I kinda felt like a surrogate for her dead son and it caused me to have a bit of an identity crisis. Additionally, my name change was one of the harder parts for her to accept when I came out. TLDR I don’t think you should put the pressure of having a name that carries so much trauma and grief on a child, because it’s simply not fair.
Growing up in the Philippines, I never knew what cultural appropriation was. Since our most of our culture is a hodgepodge of different cultures, it never really crossed my mind. Until I heard on the news how a Fil-Am (Filipino-American) who attended her school's prom in a Filipiniana (traditional filipino dress). She and her friends actually came together for a theme to wear to their prom, symbolizing the different parts of the world that represented their diverse cultures, Cameroon, Nigeria, India and China. She posted a picture on social media where she was with her friend wearing a Chinese dress with matching fans. This granered a lot of attention as a result, both good and bad. And that's where the topic of cultural appropriation first came up to me. There are people apparently telling her and her friends off for appropriating such cultures, wearing their traditional clothes as some glitzed-up versions for something like a school prom and being disrespectful to the meaning behind the outfits, especially the girl in the Chinese outfit, most likely for the same reasons as you explained you had back then in the vid. I ended up looking more into the meaning of the term since it was new to me. Now I kind of get how some of those people feel, but at the same time, the girl and her friends weren't doing it to make some sort of stereotype towards the cultures they were showing, and they are also a part of those cultures, so in a way they were paying homage, right? But yeah, nowadays it certainly does feel like quite a difficult topic to tread, especially since topics like these have their very essence buried amidst drama because the internet are so quick to spread misinformation for the sake of clout. It's a very nuanced topic, and depending on how one views it, it can be appropriation or appreciation. But I liked this video a lot, glad to know that my initial confusion on what cultural appropriation was in the first place seems to have been justified.
Regarding appreciation vs appropriation, the simplest way to look at it is that you need to place the cultural aspect in question in it's historical context. Why japan gives little to no fuck about kimonos is because although it used to be a very ceremonial clothing it's more attributed to a simple festive clothing that became a mainstream product, espeially in japan today, and hold little significance nowdays. Another way to put it is to imagine to piece of culture in question like a black belt in martial art. To wear the black belt, you need to earn it as it is the ackownledgement of your capability. No matter who you are, as long as you are good enough, you can wear it. And it's disrespectful to wear one when you didn't earn it, because it undermines the efforts of those that did earn the belt. So in a pratical situation, is the person wearing/adopting a different culture the guy that earned the "belt" and respected the culture in question or is he the one that wore the "belt" for the giggles. For the kimono, everyone can wear it,because this fictional "belt" has no requirement. this comment is kinda messy but I hope I was clear enough
I used to be a people pleaser and discovered after a while that no matter what I said or did, somebody somewhere would be mad, so, I would take the same approach here that I now take with most controversial things: ask people for their opinions, mull it over, make up my own mind, and if someone still gets mad, I just shrug.
Interesting take on cultural appropriation vs appreciation. I agree that it's a really nuanced discussion tho some things are just sacred and should not be used without context (i.e. things that are ceremonial). It's hard to explain, but to me the difference between appreciation vs appropriation is like, "Ooh, this is so cool! Everyone should see this!" vs "Ooh, this is so cool! Everyone should see me in this!" Like I have no issue with tourists and students wearing batik regardless of race or nationality coz I know they wear them coz batik is cool af, but it stroke me the wrong way if some rando influencer post a picture of themselves in kebaya "just to look hot/exotic" without at least say what they're wearing and where it's from.
How I draw the line between what is and isn't acceptable is based on the context in which the original culture wears/does a certain thing. For example, if someone wants to wear certain clothing typical of a certain culture it depends on how the people of that culture wear that clothing. If it is worn casually than it should be okay, but if it is only worn during certain ceremonies (such as a funeral, wedding, coming-of-age, specific religious ceremonies, etc.) than it is surely *not* okay for a person of another culture to wear those things without being explicitly invited to (such as if they are participating in said ceremonies). Anything else I find silly to mark down as 'cultural appropriation' as it is human nature to explore and adopt aspects of other cultures. This is how cultures merge and grow over time and how people of different backgrounds grow to understand each other. It may start off as simple appreciation of a certain aesthetic which then would often grow to curiosity about what caused such traditions in the first place. Because of this I personally don't see dreadlocks as cultural appropriation as just about every race has worn them if you go back far enough. My main understanding about why people get upset about them is because it seems to be the case that something isn't cool until a white person does it. This seems to be a racial problem to me rather than a cultural one (although the two are closely tied) as the whole idea of a white person wearing dreadlocks wouldn't be a problem if racism wasn't a thing. It is bullshit that stuff typically doesn't become popular until a white person does it, I 100% see that. But that doesn't mean that white people styling their hair in a way that expresses themselves is 'stealing' from another culture as it is likely something their own ancestors did thousands of years ago. The whole thing is nuanced. If a person styled their hair in this way and then went around pretending to be black and/or claiming to suffer the same societal pressures as people of colour do THAT would be *way* wrong. But wearing it because they think it looks cool/makes it easier to manage their hair (for some people)? Don't see the issue. I dunno, maybe it's because I live in Australia where I feel cultures tend to mix a lot faster than other places of the world (not to ignore the racism that has and still does occur here, I just feel that is mostly the loud minority vs the overall welcoming majority). People here (especially rurally) may be a bit wary of people of different cultures initially, but once they get to know them a bit and learn that they are just like everyone else everywhere they warm up pretty quick. Especially with food. I swear the basis of all cultural integration starts with food lmao. Our government's treatment of our indigenous peoples is very fucked up tho, and I'm glad they finally appear to be doing something about it and hope things keep going in a positive direction there.
I find the issue of cultural appropriation to be a bit odd as cultures naturally mix and we are causing an artificial barrier to that. There are certainly times when something is used to mock another culture but I myself tend to be pretty lenient when it comes to thay whole ordeal. And yes I 100% agree with the food bit lol
Yeah you hit the situation in the us on the head, like, on the surface it could be seen as just hair but the difference is that little black girls get their braids cut out in schools and capable black women get rejected from jobs or asked to change to something more "professional" while wearing their hair as it grows out of their head in the workplace. The issue isn't that white people are indulging in it, the issue is that only white people *can* indulge in it
The conversation that I really found interesting was the appreciation vs tokenization aspect of Asian culture. As an artist who has taken art history lessons, it is very hard to disconnect how our culture gets appropriated by people in power because they find it exotic. I personally believe it is a problem when someone tries to take our culture, which is rich in history, and generalizes it into what they believe is exotic/fashionable for their benefit alone without any reverence to that rich history behind it. So in this case of the original problem of this AITA thread, while I personally don’t like the idea of a white family using my culture to name their child, I still very much understand that she is coming from a place of respect for Jonghyun and really isn’t meaning any harm by it. Very interesting topic. Thanks for the video Ying. PS anyone who thinks that I’m misguided in my thoughts, please do discuss with me. I’m not perfect and even as a person of color I get things wrong ALL THE TIME. So don’t feel afraid to call me out.
aghh culture appropriation and culture appreciation is such a complex topic. For me it’s also hard to understand what is and what isn’t culture appreciation since I never had any experience of seeing much of my culture 😭 I’m Filipino and not many people know about the culture- neither to I even. I was born and raised in the United Stares so I haven’t got to really experience my own culture. I hope I get to one day.
Appreciation vs appropriation thing is pretty wild and like you said very grey. Even hair styles which I don't think would be that big a deal are. I'm black and if a dude white dude got dreads or some hair style worn by African Americans I don't think I would care or freak out really I'd say,"oh that's cool they don't look half bad on you good stuff" right. But I don't speak for everyone belonging to my race so others might get offended, tell dude to take them out,others might go as far to beat that man. So these discussions are very interesting for that reason
A very thoughtful, nuanced discussion - not just Ying, but the other participants, too. This debate comes up in music as well: rock-and-roll "borrowing" from the blues caused some controversy back in the day. Contrast that with jazz taking rhythms and arrangements from South American music at around the same time (mid-century).
I feel like what is apperation and what is appropriation to you depends on where you growup and how being x race affected your growing. For example if you grew up in a area were your culture was more accepted and there was more of a exchange, you might not feel as strong about cultural appropriation. As your culture was accepted and it was incrouged to exchange. But if your grew up in a area where your culture was not accepted and you were forced to hide it & assimulate or people mocked you for it. Then I think you might probably feel stronger about cultural appropriation. As you weren't allowed to properly express your culture and were forced to hide it so seeing people that would mock you or force you to hide your culter wear or use you culture for profit might hurt you more. There are meany layers to this conversation cause this can also lead into talks about fetishing certain cultures & how media effects how we see people of diffrent cultures (Like how people point out asians are now seen as cool or desirable due to anime n Kpop being popular now, but back when those niche they were bullied or seen as less attractive due to being just asian). I also like how you say just because one person from said race says its right doesn't invalidate how people from said race feel it's not (I hope I worded that right). As a black person I always see people saying,, "Hey. My black friend said its fine so you guys shouldn't be mad." & that always has irked me because your one black friend dosn't speak for all of us. I respect the opinion of that black friend but to be told to calmn down from someone of another race cause there (1) black friend was okay does nothing but silance other voices in the conversation.
I always appreciate the nuanced cultural discussions you introduce in your short videos. Thank you for always approaching such topics with thoughtful consideration and encouraging it in your community. :)
as someone who has been a shawol for a very long time, i understand where the wife is coming from but i completely completely agree with op. and like ying said, naming your kid that comes with a lot of baggage and the kid is going to have to find out one day What happened to him.. plus, there are so many other ways where shawols have come up with ways to honor him, by with the moon (or space in general), foxes, etc. if she Really wanted to name him in honor jonghyun, there are so many other options that are Not rooted in a culture she is not apart of. i completely understand missing him, because quite frankly, i do too! but it’s probably better to not put that burden on your unborn kid, it’s unfair to them.
plus to add, i’m really tired of people remembering him as a dead celebrity, when he was so much more to his family, friends etc. and i feel like naming their child jonghyun would make it seem like that’s how you will remember him, even if they have the purest intentions. i think in these type of situations you have to think about the real life family and friends his passing effected. because if it was traumatizing for me, i don’t even want to begin to imagine how it felt for his loved ones. of course, it’s only like a .001% chance that even kibum, taemin, jinki or minho were to find out that some random white woman named their kid jonghyun but they’d probably think it was a bit strange? when they found out some white kid in america was named after their friend who passed… i just feel like there are way more respectful ways to honor him especially because we did not know him.
glad the chat brought up the difference between people in and out of the diaspora--often i find that people are so quick to shout "well THESE folks living IN THE COUNTRY don't find it appropriative"--not realizing that those folks are the ethnic majority where they live, and their experiences with racially-charged mockery are going to be different than, say, someone of East Asian descent living in the west.
this part is sooo important. people who’ve never experienced racial discrimination before (on a social, cultural, economic or systemic level) will usually have a hard time understanding the importance of topics like cultural appropriation, no matter what race they are, and so it’s important that we listen to minority voices.
My mother named me after an anime she watched as a child, but my name is Terence, so there I think there is a good line. In another time line though I could have been named Kirito No Shiki Ains ool Goku. On another note, can't the mother just name the child Jhon? It's close and in her head she can still know the name came from that singer.
A lot of the redditor replies were also saying that a derivative would be a perfectly adequate way to go that both sidesteps the entire question of what kind of bullying or cultural complications it might open up! Though on the specific "jhon" naming in particular I'm not sure how I feel HAHDJAJD
Yeah, appropriation vs appreciation is a super blurry line like for example, I am half white half Chinese and my Chinese mother picked a white name for me for convenience sake. I've also been called a racist for wearing a Cheongsam my grandmother gifted me because I look white so the line is really obscure for me since I feel like I don't really belong in either group due to never having met my white family other than my father.
Oh man the qipao girl hahaha I ain’t even Chinese, I’m Korean, and even I remember getting upset Now maybe getting like super raged about it is overkill, but it is understandable if people felt weirded out or upset by it Like, I imagined if someone wore a hanbok to their prom I’d feel super iffy, too, like something’s off But also, not them doing the HANDS. That made it even worse for me And the whole thing about older people thinking “oh man look at them loving our stuff, that’s cool” is so true xD
I really like these kind of videos honestly. i think its mostly because they feel really safe and its always interesting to hear how others handle these kind of nuanced topics in a way that doesnt feel aggressive but very honest
isnt there a more creative way to find a name that invokes a similar meaning as that celebrity without literally being a korean name. I really dont think its apropriate
This was a really interesting video to watch and I'm glad youtube recommended it to me! Sorry for any of the weird comments you're getting by people that insist theyre not racist while saying racist shit with little nuance, tho
LOL there are always some, uh, *interesting* takes in the comments of videos on topics like this and as a whole i'm impressed by how measured and well thought-out everyone's responses have been so far
This was such an interesting discussion. I definitely think the sensitive nature of the name and circumstances complicates it. It's also a cultural thing too, right? I remember hearing that in Chinese culture we don't tend to name our children after other people, because it's taboo. Meanwhile in English speaking cultures, naming children after their parents, grandparents, relatives, etc. seems fairly common.
This is such an awkward one... need more info. But on another note wife is giving obsessed vibes. Like Jonghyun was and still is one of my favorite performers but I would never name my child after him. It's nuance like you said.
I think some of the talk around cultural appropriation comes from a place of wanting to preserve your heritage. A lot of the talk around appropriation seems to come from first and second generation people, It may be why elders dont seem to care too much but younger people do. Its just something thats more complicated than good or bad that the internet has turned into a binary issue.
This is an interesting topic as well because many people who interract with both Western and Korean cultures have two names, their English one and their Korean one. I feel like you could easily name the son a normal English name, and if he ever goes to Korea suggest the Korean name for him. It wouldn't be weird in that case.
I can't imagine being that kid growing up and learning you have name belonging, not only to a kpop idol, but an idol who passed away in such a devastating way. Not only that, but being a white kid in this society of 'bite their head off first, ask questions later' with a Korean name is going to lead to misery for the kid who'll probably end up feeling that guilty he changes his name, or that weirded out he's named after an idol he changes it. With the info behind it, people might be more accepting, but straight up being white with a Korean name with no background info will not turn out so well. I hope she understands the future of her child is actually more important than her dedication to an idol, no matter what the impact he has/had on her life. Also her husband must have a say in this too as its his child as well. She doesn't seem to be thinking clearly since she has her mind set on what she wants to do, when she really needs to think about everyone else, not just herself.
As someone who was named after a celebrity and got bullied for a lot of years for it, at least name your kid something subtle. Because unless they also really like the person they’re named after, they’re probably going to hate it.
Maybe they could compromise and make Jonghyun the middle name if it means that much to the wife to name her son after him? They could even make his first name a J name, such as Jason, so they could still use Jjong as a nickname for him around the house. It would make perfect sense
idk names have so cultural meaning behind them so I don't think it's appropriate even before considering the sensitive topic. Like if I saw someone 100% white or just anyone who doesn't look like theyre from my country I'd be giving funny/curious looks. I feel like religious names are the ones you hear across many cultures
I think if people like something they should be encouraged even if it's not their culture. So often people get hung up on the idea that culture is something exclusive to a specific set of people, when that's not true. I think more need to be encouraged to seek out other cultures with the caveat of actively learning more about it. Everyone is at different points of learning, if someone does something insensitive just because they didn't know we should encourage them to learn rather than come across harshly to them, but obviously if they aren't willing to learn or knew better that is not something that should be accepted. Honestly, hearing you call that Qipao situation tokenism was hard to hear, since that person was literally just someone who liked something without any negative intentions. To call someone out negatively and say they can't do so is just encouraging further cultural isolationism rather than encouraging understanding of other cultures. As for naming the child, I think it's less about the cultural aspect that makes it rather questionable, but just the aspect that the mother was wanting to name the child something for selfish reasons not considering the child's life nor the implications behind naming them after a celebrity. If you want to name a child with a "foreign" name, understanding is most important, but you also have to know your own reasons for doing so and is it really for the child's best interest.
I think that in melting pot countries the ability to explore and appreciate other people’s culture is important. More and more people are of multi-cultured family’s and that’s a good thing. while some people are disingenuous (that’s human nature) many are genuinely interested in learning more and celebrating differences with you. “culture isn’t a collectable that only some are able to experience its meant to be shared lovingly and I think that’s what some of the older generations get right. As young people I think we get caught up in fighting battles for other people and try to keep certain things with a purist mentality but society thrives when we have things in common. loving each other by being kind sharing stories and knowledge is a very powerful thing. We can use these instances of cultural exploration to equip those people with our knowledge to teach others in our stead.
I'm white, so I haven't had to deal with racism like some others in the comment section might have, but I thought it'd be interesting to share my perspective on this I feel like it's really situational and depends on the intention. If an individual is misrepresenting a culture, I feel like they should be encouraged to learn about that culture and have the reason for why it's wrong be brought to their attention, rather than being attacked. Many people might take an interest in cultures outside of their own, especially if they grew up in only one area. A lot of Americans nowadays are very interested in East asian clothing due to trends such as anime and kpop, I feel as though if someone is wearing or engaging in a culture, it's more likely they're trying to learn and appreciate it, even if they went about things wrong, and I think people (especially the internet) as a whole shouldn't be so quick to attack and boycott someone for a simple slip up, because that mentality will have the opposite effect. Now, if someone is reminded and told multiple times, and still doesn't put in the effort to actually understand the culture or the people of that culture, yet continues to "use" or "represent" it, THEN I definitely understand feeling upset, because at that point they're aware and they clearly don't care enough to actually respect it. At the same time, it's sort of a gray area. Just because two people come from the same culture and background doesn't mean they share the same perspective of what qualifies as appropriation. Some people could think having a hairstyle is fine, others could feel upset about it. Which makes it very difficult for people of other cultures to experience them because in the end somebody will be upset. It's inevitable. The internet has sort of caused this mentality, especially in open places such as forums or comment sections, where people are very quick to swarm others over the slightest wrong, especially if it pertains to things such as race/ethnicity, culture, sexuality, the like. Most of the time it also feels like these people aren't even the ones being affected. They just decided they're right and started arguing, and then the others joined the train, even if none of them have any sort of clue as to the actual topic or issues with it. They just see a minority being mentioned. And I think that's a pretty big part of the issue as well. It's this mentality that discourages people from actually learning about different people and cultures because even if somebody is very careful to properly respect and consider the culture, there's going to be somebody out there who gets upset. To someone on the outside, it can quickly start to be seen as an exclusive thing that only those people can understand, and most people would rather not engage with any other culture at all. Which will then lead to them being more close minded about these things. Like with a lot of things, it feels counter intuitive. And again, like with a lot of people groups, it's tricky because everybody has their own perspective, and that becomes harder to make sense of when the person they're directed towards is out of the know. I like to go into things (in general, I don't usually partake when it has to do with other cultures, since I don't really have a say in that. I decided to this time since it's more about the topic) with the mentality that people more often than not have good intentions, because if you just assume the worst and get upset, neither of you will have a good time. Constructive criticism is always better than arguing. That said, this is a really complex topic and is very much a gray area, because culture is an intangible thing. No one person owns a culture. Heck, pretty much every culture has been influenced by another culture in some way, shape, or form, this has been happening for hundreds of years and this will continue to happen. It's not just a western thing, it happens with pretty much every part of the world. People will take interest in another lands food, language, religion, clothing, art, you name it, then they'll take it back to their own land, and then over time it will be changed and appropriated to fit that culture. It's just how things go. Some people will see it as harmless, and some will see it as harmful. The difference, I guess, is that you can't really do much to stop it on a cultural scale. It's much easier to speak out or feel like you have a say when it's on an individual level. Some notes before anybody missinterprets something (because I'm well aware I'm very bad at conveying my thoughts well-) 1. I'm not trying to speak on behalf of anybody who is affected by these types of situations. I don't come from a very cultural background, I just thought my take as an outsider would be interesting. I find other cultures and mythologies to be very interesting, because it's cool to see how different cultures experienced/viewed the world and the things that their beliefs and environments lead to. That said, I try not to use or appropriate other cultures. Even if I'm integrating cultural inspiration - such as in a design or game - I try to do some research before that. I also acknowledge that my limited research and knowledge can only do so much. I personally would like to be corrected and educated if it turns out I did something offensive, rather than simply attacked, or having people ignore it for the sake of politeness, so that's sort of where I'm coming from. 2. It's also completely understandable to be upset over your culture, especially if it means a lot to you or you've experienced racism or appropriation in the past. I'm not trying to undermine that in any way. I myself have overreacted over such situations (that afflict me, just to be clear). But I also think it's important to be able to look back and acknowledge that yes, it was an issue, but it should have been handled differently, and try to do that in the future. I dunno, those are my thoughts lol.
For the naming thing, I think it's both inappropriate to name yourself after someone who died tragically and from another culture? Like it's one thing to name yourself to remember someone, but as in family way, I think it's fine. But for someone who's a random celebrity. Now, there are plenty of people named after celebrities. So I guess that's not necessarily a problem? But to name someone in a different culture is really strange especially with no connection to you is just a double whammy I wouldn't have crossed. There's a Korean adoptee in the comments who makes a good point. I don't want to invalidate them as an Asian person, but I think the subtext without growing up with your culture and parents is that they were auto assimilated since their adoption. They didn't have to watch their parents struggle and to translate things into English, adopt an English name, etc. Many Asian families adopt and English name to fit in, I hate it when a certain group of people point this out for the Asians in the US especially. It's not our fault. And in Asia, if they did, it's usually a stage name, and because names can have similar variations, they need something to differentiate themselves. I know many celebrities from Hong Kong who have an English stage name because they were under British rule for awhile. To Ying, as someone who's Chinese myself, I could've been given an Asian name from my parent's cultures. Something Chinese, or Thai, maybe even Viet or Laos. But my parents chose not to. None of my Asian friends are legally given an Asian name. I don't know if that's your legal name, or you chose to represent yourself with your Chinese name, but it's really refreshing (a bit startling too) to see an Asian-American person actively use their Asian name because it's just really uncommon, and I'm glad you're actively promoting yourself as an Asian person with positive aspects to the culture! A lot of people use it for humor but you teach us all something with your language skills.
It's a No for me. Specially if your son has nothing that tight me to the culture. I know parents that have given their children. African names mostly because their children where born there. Or they have some attachments to the culture. Other wise it Jesus weird.
I personally don't really get the bullying argument regarding naming your child. My siblings and I all have first names from different (including Asian) cultures, despite being white and none of us got bullied for our names. Not that none of us got bullied, I was bullied for years, but I can't remember a single moment where my name was part of that. But I've noticed that the US is vastly different to Europe in that regard
I do agree with the Diaspora vs Native thing. My own countrymen appreciate when others get to wear our clothes and cook our food (unless you really fucked up that adobo recipe, British television). Definitely nuanced
I just feel like it’s not fair to give a child a name from a culture that they might never feel a connection to. it also feels insensitive to the family and friends of jonghyun. He had a great impact on a lot of peoples life but she never really knew him and I feel like naming your child after a celebrity is iffy no matter the situation.
In addition to all the reasons discussed in the video to not name her son after this guy, what if she introduces the band's music to her son and he thinks they suck? That'd be awkward. Also, I concur with 6FT5ANDJACKED: your hair looks nice.
I don’t really care about the appropriation vs appreciation, in the end you gotta remember how this’ll affect the kid. You think a child wants to know that he’s named after a K-pop idol his mom loved and he has nothing to do with? I wouldn’t be surprised if the kid gets his name changed in the future
With conversations like like this, I've always really disliked the framing of "appropriation vs appreciation" because it frames these things as if they are two ends of a diametric spectrum, with one end being bad and harmful and other end being good and harmless. By doing this, conversations then become a debate about whether the person appropriating the culture truly appreciates aspects of said culture, if they've always appreciated said culture, will they always appreciate said culture etc. Because if they can justify or prove their appreciation, then therefore, they cannot be appropriating and causing harm actually. Because they are appreciating it. But in reality appropriating and appreciating are two separate things. Appreciation speaks to intent of an action. Appropriation is that action. It is neither inherently good nor bad, and whether or not it is harmful or harmless has more to do with context and outcome than the intent someone had when doing it. You can truly appreciate a language and culture, truly appreciate and admire an artist from that culture and want to honor them as a person irregardless of what happened to them, and still appropriate that culture in a way that is harmful. I think when we frame the conversation of appropriation as something we all do, regardless of identity, then we're able to discuss those nuances of when appropriating aspects of a culture is benign and when it's a problem (spoiler: usually it has to do with history and structures of societal power). I do like how this particular aita ended with OP updating that their wife understood why giving their white baby a Korean name wasn't a good idea, and compromising by giving their son a name which honored jonghyun, shinee, and their son as an individual.
About the first one is that like they’re both very white and in my personal opinion it’s okay to name your kid names from other cultures but I think it really would affect your kid negatively in some sorta way :/ nta I also think that you shouldn’t name your kid after an idol bc they have they’re own identity. I think cultures should be shared and celebrated but some topics are sensitive especially if that topic has been taken away from the group and they are just now getting freedom to practice that without hate. I think maybe if the kid was born in Korea it would be more normal but a white kid in what I’m assuming to be North America being named that is kind of odd. And one example is that white people shouldn’t wear black hairstyles and I agree with this because girls get kicked out of school, bullied, and harassed for having these hairstyles so if some people can’t practice it freely I don’t think non black people should practice it
Personally for the sake of the child, I would only use Jong-hyun as a middle name and give him a western first name. He can later decide what he wants to do with those names. Reminds me of "Koji Fox" one of the translators of FF14 who has a completely western family but was given the middle name Koji cause his parents loved the culture. He later on became so interested in Japan he learned the language and moved there and now uses his middle name as sort of a nickname there.
consider using it as a second name? if this name is truly that meaningful to her rather than a primary name you can compromise. i get it there are things i feel strongly about too and i know my partner also has feeling of their own but more than just you two there is now another person you need to add to your compromise consider the child and its feelings if it has 2 names they can also choose there own preferred name
9:50 I've read through the comments and agree with most, if not all of them (mainly because I haven't seen the racism yet, amazing community). Someone brought up that wearing cultural clothing you bought from a stall isn't appropriation, which brings me to the topic of... cultural norms? I don't know how to phrase it. Hypothetically, if a person bought clothing from another country and wore it there, it probably won't get as much backlash because the people there are around others that usually wear that style and it's not really something discriminated against. It'll be seen as integration, and not be offensive towards the people who have grown up in that country. It's the norm, per say. On the other hand, if that person went back to their hometown where it isn't the norm and put on those clothes, the people there are a minority. Therefore, that person wearing those clothes despite not being from their country would be more likely to be seen as offensive, as not many people do so and it can be felt like making fun of their culture. What I'm trying to say is that something that is worn normally and seen as normal in another country is likely to be discriminated against in another because of it being more uncommon. I feel like if the qipao girl was in the position, it would be more understandable but as I honestly haven't heard of it before now, I don't think I have enough context. (Edit: Rewatched, oh dear.) It's hard to put this into words, sorry if anything was unclear. Have a great day!
Growing up as a Chinese in a community where my race is deemed as the minority, it was(and still is) difficult to have a Chinese name because people have a hard time pronouncing it which makes me feel guilty(even though I shouldn't) so for the sake of the child's convenience and to protect the child from going through identity crisis, I think it is better to name them a name familiar to your own culture. In addition, the child will appreciate that you gave them a thoughtful name instead of the "Because he was my favourite idol" reasoning
Second comment now that it’s not 2-3 AM and I have an actual keyboard to write on. To me, whether something is cultural appropriation or appreciation is widely based on where it’s happening. As in, in which community and who it affects. As was said in the video, a lot of mainland Asians will often not see something as cultural appropriation while others that live in more Westernized countries where they are the minority will think the same thing/event is appropriation. Because the lived experience is not the same. For example, a Japanese person living in Japan will not have been mocked for wearing a yukata, while a Japanese person who grew up in the United States might have. So later seeing that same cultural element used by (usually) white people as a fashion statement will be infuriating. And it’s something I think a lot of people don’t quite understand. Like, the amount of people I’ve heard saying “Oh but that’s okay, my Japanese friend from Japan said it wasn’t appropriation.”… and it hurts too because “mainland” people’s opinion on appropriation is sometimes considered more legit because they’re 100% from that culture. But then they have 0 insight on how appropriation works in Western countries and how it hurts minority communities to let that inadequate uses go on. It’s a big mess and I think you’re right that you can’t get universal permission on a cultural element since no culture is monolithic. But that makes it all the more tricky. I guess you go with the majority and by the impact it will have on that community (as a whole or locally)??
Bruh imagine a kid name Jonghyun Anderson 💀, anyways it’s just very weird to name a kid from a different that’s not their own, I think there’s even a country where it’s illegal to name your kid a name that’s not form your own culture. Like culture is so tied to identity it’s just really weird at best to name a kid a different culture name unless you grew up in a certain culture or have to assimilate into it to be more socially acceptable. Anyways I think a way to compromise for this couple is to use an English name with the same meaning as Son Jonghyun so the wife can appreciate her idol while OP and the kid wont have to deal with the weirdness of a Korean first name for a white person, if the wife wants to appreciate Korean culture so bad then like just have the kid attend Korean classes or sth. If the I I given a name with such a disconnect from their actual born culture they could be awkward or embarrassed or even grow the hate the culture and the person the mom loved
I feel like the term cultural appropriation is very American (USA). I'm Indonesian and when I was studying in Germany, there were Germans who wore Indonesian batik to Asian festival there, and I think it's great. None of my Indonesian friends complained either. On the other hand, in my country, it is normal to have European/Christian name despite pure blooded Asian and Muslim.
I don't know... names are interesting because it defines your identify and also affect how people perceives you. For example, I don't think there would be a as much debate if the parents of a white kid born and raised in Korea decide to give them a Korean name on top of a more "white" name, so the Korean name would be used at school. Immigrants do this all the time, and in this case the kid does have Korean influence to their identity. But completely out of context in an European country just feels a bit weirder, although I agree it doesn't come from a bad place. Also I am not a fan of the whole naming your kid to remember someone else thing in general, but I know it happens all the time. Maybe a middle name as a compromise? About the girl in Qipao. I am a bit mad, but not at the girl specifically. I don't know the context, if she just thought it looked pretty, if she just likes Chinese culture, or if she wore it more as a costume, etc. As long as she's not wearing it to mock Chinese people or as a costume, then it's totally fine. I am more mad at the situation, which is that since she's white she can wear what she wants, but I will have to think, would people see me as foreign or weird if I wore my own culture's clothing, would I get attacked or mocked for it?
Oh, and I should also mention-my deadname is Greek and my last name gets people mixed up even though it should theoretically be straightforward, so I've had the experience of having my first and last name butchered. I only want to change them for personal reasons, I wasn't specifically bullied for (at least, in my recollection) and the mispronounciation was more amusing to me than anything. But Jong-hyun? Not only is he going to have trouble pronouncing his name, he's going to have trouble spelling it too...and if he can't spell or pronounce it, how are his teachers going to know? Plus, I already know he's going to be called "Jo(h)n"-because it sounds similar and is more expected of someone of his background.
Skipping over the debate about cultural appropriation etc. Naming children names from different cultures isn’t wrong in any way (imo) but the problem is that you should keep the names for the area in which you live. If two people move to Korea and name their child something Korean, it’s much better. Because the child will fit in with the others. Same thing with two moving to Ireland and naming the kid something common in Ireland. The child is either 100% gonna be bullied because nobody can pronounce their name, or just make up another easier name. Also because they will probably have no relation to korean culture themselves, they might end up not connecting to their name and change it when they turn 18. Definitely gonna be an interesting conversation to have when the kid is a teen.
as a shawol, i understand the wife's longing to honor jonghyun for the talented, beautiful human he was. even in this comment section, i see people calling him a "famous dead person" but he's so much more than what happened to him, and that's probably what she wanted to honor. however, as a korean, i do think it's weird to give your 100% white child a korean name. i totally agree with ying's point that this may present a lot of identity issues for the child & i think this is a somewhat selfish decision on the mother's part. i fully understand her heart as a shawol and she has the purest intentions, but personally, i think there are other ways she can honor him that isn't at the expense of her husband and son.
I just hope that, when having conversations about appreciation vs appropriation, limitations aren't put solely on white people. I have listened to a lot of conversations about this topic, and most single out the interactions of white people as appropriation or tokenism. I think that it is important to acknowledge that any race can appreciate or appropriate. It is about the motives surrounding actions not an individual's interpretation of an act
9:14 it's because your grandparents think of themselves as foreigners to the country where as ppl in your generaiton think of ourselves as residents. Seeing another group of residents treat your cutlue as a costume is what offended you, but your grandparents who identify more as Chinese probably thinks of those white ppl as tourists who like wearing Qipao and respecting their cultural. Different lens.
What do you think about 2nd+ generation diaspora wearing traditional clothing from their ethnic heritage? By blood, I'm full Chinese, but growing up in a white country with completely white culture, speaking English, etc. has me kinda wary about whether i should even be wearing stuff like qipao or hanfu.
I think everyone has their personal reasons and if you find it a good way to explore your roots, then no one can tell you otherwise. That's partially why I really wanted to share this discussion from stream; I think people are way too knee-jerky in their reactions to telling people theyre appropriating something without even fully understanding someone's reasoning. Whatever you decide, I hope you find it fun and rewarding!!
I kind of go on a tangent. sorry I think it's odd, but I don't think it's an issue. Many people name their child after a friend or movie character or book... why not a kpop star. As for the comment on locs..... it's actually more of a spiritual thing. So black people wearing it as a style making a big deal out of it are "appropriating" a little. And the black people that call locs dreadlocs shouldnt talk because they clearly dont know that's an offensive term for locs because they aren't dreadful. They also shouldn't make it seem other people's hair cannot loc up... it can just with a bit more work. however, I understand where people are coming from when they get upset. why are people wearing styles when we get negative feedback on it, like in trouble at work. I get it. I've been there. it sucks (it was a half up half down look but my hair was natural not straight) total bs. but that's not because its locs, cornrows, bantu knots, box breads.. its because rules don't like us very much. we have to remember how this country was built. don't have to hate on anyone for sharing our styles unless it's to make a mockery or to straight up steal (I will never forget kim ks boxerbraids). The gate keeping comes from a hurt place. I get it. If you know where it's from. Respect that community. Mind your business and live your life than it isn't a problem. It's usually Americans or western people that have an issue with sharing and again ITS UNDERSTANDABLE just doesn't mean its right. The white people screwed every single one of us over. but what did all of our ancestors do? they were open and shared. appropriation Are you trying to use a name? Know the meaning and prepare to defend your decision because that part isn't very common yet. People are out here naming their kid apple, or a biblical name not even being religious, or naming their child after a country. then why not another person? Again, I personally wouldn't advise her to name her kid that, but it's her kid. I know someone named after Vanessa Williams, and they aren't American. In fact, all the kids have white names to sound fancy (one sounds like a knight lol). Why we only get to be named after white people? Names like haru, Santiago, Imani or aren't fancy or to be desired? The world is so big yet so small now, other people can find your names beautiful. We are fully able to enter an era where white boys will have Korean names. and everyone get teased as a kid. It's just a way of passage. we all had an Amanda in our school. I know my nephew is going to get it. My SIL disliked people calling my nephew Eli as a nickname instead of Elie(Ellie) so she changed his whole name from Elijah to Elie just so people wouldn't confuse the two (something about Eli being the bad elijah because there were two or something in the bible idk. who knows maybe the kids will go easy on him since he isn't from the states. But even my brother worries)
First you need to look the regulations or laws about name changing in your country/state. After that you probably have most answers you need, sometimes a lawyer is needed, sometimes you have to pay Money for it etc. It's different everywhere. Where I'm from a Person can only change letters but not the whole name, there are exceptions but not a lot, you would have to pay quite a bit too.
I actually dont find an issue with the cultural appreciation part, my only problem is naming someone after someone else. It kinda feels restricting, like you are not treating your child as a new human being. I much prefer the idea of both parents coming up with a new name together. Hell, you can make a Korean name up (assuming you make sure that the name is actually Korean).
Is cosplay of traditional clothing like your yae cosplay which is about japanese shrine maiden but with a very short skirt/pant considered culture appropriation, tokenization or appreciation? Technically they are appreciating the game but also appropriating japanese culture? Also must cosplay only be limited to characters of your own race?
this is a REALLY fun question that I could rant about for probably hours hahaha but I think cosplay is an interesting space where the community norms have made it a perfectly free-flowing space; there are definitely still things that raise eyebrows (brownfacing is a HUGE issue for example) but for the most part the community has always approached it as a "anything goes" kind of space. If you want to adapt a cosplay to your culture you can, if you want to use a cosplay to explore a different culture from yours you're welcome to do it (respectfully), and if you want to just emulate the character as-is (that's the most common path, after all) you generally won't get side-eye for simply wearing a character's outfit, even if that outfit is inspired or heavily influenced by a culture that isn't your own. I think this kind of free exploration space is important, and has a LOT of value for cultural exploration and cross-pollination, but I also think it's important that we pause to consider the edge cases. Some people are uncomfortable cosplaying various characters for various reasons (I would never cosplay a hilichurl personally, for example) while others have no qualms about it, but opening up a space for that kind of discussion is a lot of fun and also how we grow to understand each other better as humans across cultures, IMO anyways, long winded answer where I barely even got to the point LOL sorry :'D tl;dr the cosplay community is a free-flowing space where people do whatever they want but there are still places where people overstep or piss each other off and while the discourse can be headache-inducing, I also think it's important to have them and I'm glad we have a place to catalyze those conversations
Honestly more than anything I think it's bizzare to name your child after a dead celebrity you don't know. Naming your kid after celebrities in general is weird imo
This isn't even acknowledging the fact that the celebrity in question suffered for years with mental illness and depression and took their own life. That's a very heavy thing to dump on your child from day 1.
idk if you arnt going to name your child after something you love then what? I mean I really dont want to put any expectations or baggage on my child with their name but it seems unavoidable to me. ofc there is always degrees and some stuff will have more or less or different meanings but im not ready to write off the whole concept of naming after a celebrity
@@koreandersim your child's name doesn't need to be your favorite thing in the world, you can just name your son Joe because you simply like the name period
Ya, there's this dude in my year called Sean mendes, everyone took the piss out of him. Moral of the story don't name your kids after celebrities
@@Ajia_No_Envy i once met someone whose birth name was Scarlet Johansen, but she changed it because people were bullying her
OP later updated that his wife has changed her mind and that they've decided to name the child Lucien Tadhg (Irish names meaning shining and poet) to be able to pay tribute while still being respectful.
Honestly that’s quite good
On the naming topic, I think to me it's not even an appreciation vs appropriation thing rather than... Your child is not a memento. Your child is going to be a living, breathing and sentient human being that will have its own opinions experiences and personality and giving them a name that has such a deep meaning not only to you, but to a whole bunch of people (because they were a celebrity that died tragically), is putting a lot of pressure on them that will shape the experiences they go through and... Yeah they might resent you for it. Also I don't know how comfortable I'd be constantly calling out to my child with the name of a famous dead person that was really important in my life.
This was a great video! I’m Korean, but I’m adopted (specifically I have white parents). When you’re an adopted minority in the US, especially adopted by people who aren’t the same race as you, you unfortunately miss out on a lot of the familial traditions and cultural aspects of your origin culture, but still deal with all of the racism. For instance, I didn’t even know what Chuseok was until I got into K-pop a couple of years ago. This makes it difficult for me to formulate an opinion about cultural appropriation. I feel like I’m affected by cultural appropriation in the sense that people sometimes appropriate to be malicious, but at the same time I am not in a position to help draw the line between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation, simply because I have not experienced Korean culture the way most Koreans have. With the situation mentioned in the video, I find less fault in the fact that she’s naming her child a Korean name and more fault in the fact she’s naming that person after someone who passed in such an unfortunate way.
As an another Asian adoptee, I get this and send hugs if wanted. Sometimes our upbringing makes it really difficult for us to know if our opinion on such topics is valid or not
@@Gamyeon Thank you, the hugs are greatly appreciated
I wish people who adopted children with a cultural history different from theirs took the time to teach them and immerse them as best they could in their culture and language. I know I'd be so frustrated only later learning everything I'd missed out on
@@tsundereyoongi3869 I think it depends. My parents did make some effort. I remember going to a Korean heritage event when I was younger. My parents also tried to introduce me to Korean, of which I wasn’t interested. This is somewhat anecdotal, but lots of the microaggressions I received in grade school were about how I wasn’t “Asian enough”. Is it my parents’ fault that they did not make a greater effort to involve me in Korean culture or is it the fault of others who believe that I must reflect a certain culture in order to be properly considered Korean?
@@tsundereyoongi3869
To be fair to my parents, they did try to get me interested to my birth country's culture (Taiwan), but I didn't really care until adulthood and was much more into Japanese and Korean culture during my teenagehood and young adulthood. I only started wanting to know more about my culture in the last few years. It's to be noted I didn't grow up around an Asian community to relate to, nor did any school I attended have many Asians (most of us were adoptees) who could really give me a peek of what culture I was missing on.
Regardless of anything else, it's a red flag to me that one parent would unilaterally get to decide the child's name. Are they not partners in this? I couldn't imagine being so inflexible as to insist upon a name my partner is dead set against. Very odd.
i would personaly suggest a name that sounds close to jong such as john or so , just find a happy medium .
True
Or maybe use a middle name? She did say she wasn't willing to compromise on it being the first name, so that likely wouldn't work.
Jonghyun's unofficial english name was Ty which is not a bad name and it's still connected to him but in a way that only the parents would know about
I also think that the reason why the younger generations of the diaspora like the 2nd gen and younger have such a strong response to things like cultural appropriation compared to 1st gen immigrants and people from the home country is because they are usually the ones that face the brunt of the racism and ridicule. They are the ones that can see the more thinly veiled racism since they don't have the language barrier that the 1st gens do and they are more likely to actually encounter racist situations compared to people from the home country or even first gens that tend to congregate together. So when situations like the qipao prom girl come up, they're more likely going to think "If I wore my traditional dress to prom, I would be ridiculed" or even "I did wear my traditional dress to prom and I was ridiculed" Then they see a white girl wearing it and seeing people not batting an eye at it or even praising her for it. That's going to make that 2nd gen and younger diaspora pretty upset. It's very much a situation of "I have to face so much stuff to be able to feel safe wearing my cultural dress while you can just put it on and take it off without having to consider any of that."
Well-said!!
That is an excellent point. Surely any Korean-American kid with that name might get funny looks and might even be told to "go back to China" (ugh, don't racist love that one?). But there comes this white kid and his name will be seen as exotic and original. So even if choosing a Korean name isn't done with malice, the choice requires the awareness to recognize that some cultural elements are part of someone else's reality and you're taking them in isolation, unintentionally imbuing them with your privilege. This is not at all the parents fault, of course. They're not the racist ones and they're not "stealing" from another culture. I just wish they think of the implicacies of their choice for the minorities they're appreciating.
I live in a very culturally diverse city in Asia where there are many different kinds of east asian cultures but very strong western and sometimes middle eastern influences. Since I grew up here, the topic of cultural appropriation feels very off for me. I never really thought much about it since I was used to culture being mixed.
That was how I thought, however, until I saw Spider Man: No Way Home. Context, I'm filipino. Context yet again: there was an old lady who spoke bisaya. More context: my mom's from mindanao. When I heard that old lady speak in the movie I was so shocked that I couldn't stop laughing at how absurd it was.
I'm not going to lie, I was happy when I first realized that there was a filipino person in the movie. Who doesn't like feeling represented?
That's until I heard her speak+the way the movie seemed to strongly emphasize the filipino aspects like "Oh look here's PANDESAL. lets throw the PANDESAL. Did you call it bread? no, it's PANDESAL. PANDESAL."
That's when I realized that it's more marketing rather than sincerity which made it all the more bitter. I know how cultural appreciation looks like; I just need to go out on the streets and I could find it quickly. A tourist wearing cultural outfits they've bought from a stall is not cultural appropriation. A street vendor mixing eastern and western foods to come up with some fusion style is not cultural appropriation, but it may be edging it(depending on the person and the intent. Fusion food is just what happens when you have alot of cultures interacting). There's a special wonder and awe when a person appreciates a culture and it makes me so happy to see it.
It feels horrible, though, when you see movies, tv shows, and popular media using your own culture for "POC rep" without even trying to give some effort. It's like showing the world just what kind of people we are: that's a delicate role and you have to treasure it.
I'm not Filipino but I'm aware you guys have a strong East Asian diaspora, but I think the difference is that they've integrated without mishaps(? I think?), so the idea of cultural appropriation in there would more-so count as EA "orientalism in a way?
I think it was cool that they had a tiny bit representation in NWH but I guess they learned to cater to a demographic, but rather insincerely.
The way Asian people spoke in media has always been made a laughing stock. I think there's an emerging generation of kids who realize that Asian comedians do that out of bad faith.
Yeah I think intent is the big thing here. Like if it was an indie film directed by someone actively trying, hearing that sort of mistake is forgivable, but when it's a situation of a major blockbuster where multiple people should be doing research and you aren't privy to the ins and outs of the direction, it can come across as insincere and they should have done better. Similarly, someone who comes up with fusion style because they like both styles is perfectly fine, but if someone does so because they have some twisted reason to make another style more like a different style they prefer it's no longer fine and could be called cultural appropriation trying to change it.
I was born in the Philippines but grew up in the US, for me that scene was actually really fun and reminded me of my own childhood of my grandparents coming home and trying to feed me and my friends and not able to speak English so I would translate for them. I know it was probably some forced representation but it made me happy, especially because the Filipino character, Ned, is played by a Filipino-American actor and I'm sure he had some input into how that scene was written. I think the grandma character's accent was a bit off because she spoke her lines slow and clear when usually we speak fast and loud haha. I don't really remember them saying anything about the pandesal on the table but for me, I got really excited to see those little rolls of bread that were so important to our breakfast. No hate and not saying you are wrong to feel that way as I agree, I just think I've seen much more soulless attempts at that kind of thing and having a seen where they spoke our language, for a lot more lines I thought they would, with two Filipino actors was at least a nice gesture or attempt, for what little it meant. But like Ying said just those two actors saying it was good doesn't mean every Filipino will have that experience just as you shared, and goes to show there is a huge gray area of what feels good, what feels ok, what feels bad, and what is just plain wrong.
@@chaosemperor24 i completely agree! As much as I feel bitter towards it, its impractical to want it to stop. They don't need my permission to get filipino representation nor do I need theirs if I want to create some sort of American character. My main point of complaint is that sometimes there isnt any care when it comes to showing different cultures to the masses. I love the mix and mashing of culture; it feels like a breath of fresh air. I dont want to gatekeep and I love sharing as much as I can, but it doesnt mean that I dont value it endearingly.
Its like pottery. Culture could be molded and changed into different shapes, and the variety and mix of different styles is beautiful. Yet it takes a great deal of care when handling it lest it will just fall apart into a mess of clay clumps. Random clay clumps are not a vase despite being the thing the makes it. Same thing goes for culture, I believe.
It's super gray and it always depends on the person looking at it. As much as we need to take great care when it comes to appreciating another culture and bringing it to the spotlight, the consumers as well need a great deal of tolerance to not jump the gun, is what I believe in
omg this is how I felt with Dr Strange 2 and america Chavez. her spanish was ridiculous, but on the contrary- the recent Puss in Boots movie had perfect spanish incorporation
I went to a famous traditional onsen in Japan before, and as a brown-skinned Southeast Asian I got irritated, shocked, hostile looks (mostly from older people) when I dipped into the pool despite following all the onsen etiquettes based from my prior experiences.
Their gazes only relaxed when my Japanese friends joined me in the same pool (there were many various options) and chatted with me.
I guess they became relieved upon learning that I was invited to participate, instead of intruding into their culture.
lots of possible reasons for this treatment (including straight up racism tbh) but I'm glad you were able to relax and enjoy yourself in the end!
I mean, if you did everything right, it's not on you, but them for being assholes. No need to look further here
Personally I think it's racism or colourism. I don't think they'd react as badly if it was a white person
@@latia876 but japanese people... aren't white?
Man some people really just trying to have a bath ong. While Onsen do have societal norms etc. I do not think it is fair to just ban people that are not indigenous from enjoying it. The concept of a hot spring is not purely japanese and it shouldn't be treated like it is closed off to others because it's a public facility, just like any other public facility.
I mean, its isn't as bad as naming your kid Kylo Ren or Daenerys, but why would you do that to your kid. Hes probably gonna run to get his name changed as soon as hes able.
Such a shame Daenerys is actually a good name
@@mogosbinted7660 it's was coined by a George R R Martin and it's first use was for a fictional character, so it's kinda cringey. It does sound cool though.
@Trinity M I've tried to read your comment like 5 times, but it doesn't make sense.
TW - Discussion of Jonghyun
I debated commenting this but I feel like the first OP's wife was not flawed in wanting to name her child after Jonghyun. Naming kids after celebrities is a genuinely questionable topic but in OP's wife's case, I kind of understand her thought process. When people think of Jonghyun, particularly non-Shawols (shinee's fandom name), always seem to associate him with the tragic suicide and his torment from seasonal affective depression. I'm pretty sure OP's wife, as a Shawol, remembers him as the skilled singer-songwriter-producer that was witty, unique and truly a gem to the music industry. In her mind, it's likely that she isn't naming her son _solely_ due to his passing, but rather in the honour of the musician. That being said, it is debatable to "honour" someone else with your child, since your child will grow up to be their own person. I am sure OP's wife means no harm. But as Ying said, it'll be better to talk to their Korean friends (if they have any) first regarding this.
Also, naming your children after names from a culture that isn't your own is completely okay as long as you don't mean harm. (It happens all the time where I'm from, yet for the most part people don't frankly care. The whole being worried about naming appropriacy vs. culture seems to be a very western-centric topic from my observations) The fact that OP's wife thought through of the Hanja beforehand shows that she is very well aware of the culture, which is frankly impressive. Their race should not determine the appropriacy of names, but considering the fact that the father is concerned, perhaps they could make Jonghyun the middle name instead.
I also want to mention that the redditor who commented "your child should not be a tool for your fangirling" was correct, but also wildly tone deaf when it comes to the situation of naming the child after Jonghyun in particular (as well as taking into count how much OP's wife appreciates Shinee). (Though the redditor may not have known the seriousness of the topic)
I agree with a lot of what you said, thank you for writing out so well what i was thinking too! Just a heads up about a little bit of wording, as you said many nonshawols see not much past jjongs death while shawols work hard to make sure he is remembered as the person he actually was, so putting his name as the trigger warning (when really it is his death that is potentially triggering, not him as a person, who is so much more) is not the best idea. Totally unintentional and well meant on your side of course - thank you for being considerate to put a TW, but generally shawols prefer to use TW // Dec 18th , suicide
I have also made a comment in the original post and just like you I understand where the wife is coming from, especially as a Shawol myself - I just don‘t think it‘s a good idea to give a kid an excentrique name due to a fandom. For me it‘s like if somebody who likes Harry Potter names their kid after a name in the book and then the kid has to deal with being related to that fandom all their life - and maybe even grows to hate the fandom due to always being associated with it. But it‘s definitely an interesting situation, I wonder what came of it!
I have a Japanese name even though I don’t have a drop of Japanese blood in me, luckily it can be shortened to an American sounding nickname. I really hope that kid doesn’t end up like me, every time someone hears my full name they get a very confused look, I’ve even had a few people say “ but isn’t that a Japanese name?”. It’s embarrassing when I have to tell someone that I have a Japanese name despite being born in Idaho.
Do your parents have a reason for giving you that name? Because I could *understand* why depending on the reason
@AltraHapi
My mother picked it cause it’s a strong name, plus her father has always been really interested in Japanese culture.
I also have a name from a different culture but I always get compliments for it since it doesn't sound too out there. Maybe its an american thing?
@@Aki-gb8gm depends. If the name is not too difficult then people don’t really care. But if you live in an area with mostly like for example English names, suddenly hearing someone named something Japanese might cause confusion if the person doesn’t look Japanese. Like why that name if nobody in your family has Japanese roots or something. (I live in Europe for reference)
@@brindleface9316 Oh yeah I'm from a European country too. My name is from a African culture but it sounds pretty similar to names that are popular in my country and is easy to pronounce. My parents just loved the meaning and it doesn't sound too out there. I think there is a lot of nuance in this topic, I feel like choosing names from other cultures is ok, as long as its not gonna be a hinderance for the child and not chosen out of obsession with a specific culture.
Could even use the middle name slot if they're hellbent on going with another culture's name. I don't think it's appropriation vs appreciation here, as this women clearly loves the culture to the point she has actually learned the language.
However, I think what's important here is what's best for the child. Perhaps naming him after someone with such a tragic story isn't the best idea. Not to mention how other people will react to a white person with two fully white parents that doesn't live in Korea but has a Korean name. Of course, we can say that how people react is their fault and doesn't concern them, but that doesn't stop people from thinking the name is weird here and judging/bullying the kid.
the cho chang dig LOL
i personally think that naming a child is the responsibility of both parents (if possible) instead of one parent deciding based on their own desires, fandoms, etc, and especially weird given the context of this specific case. it's important to consider the impact that this kind of decision will leave on the child, so you touched on a lot of really great points there!
I think this isn't even an appropriation ver appreciation argument, but more a societal perception of what race/ethnicity/nationality is... like, her calling is "appreciation" isn't entirely wrong and don't need to ask permission, but the whole context of the death of the celebrity is a lot of emotional baggage for a kid to carry + the fact the parents of other children will inevitably reflect their biases of race/ethnicity/nationality onto the kid's peers. It's not the same like online with nicknames and then the whole conversation about cultural and linguistic ties to names that make it messy. Like, for a nickname and chosen names, you chose a name and it comes with those ties that others in society project into it, so as parents, YOU NEED to consider that when naming a child.
If they both end up going with the mother's choice, I do hope the kid has a decent time navigating their identity. OP admits they are VERY much white, so its more a question of if they're actually going to really consider their kid's future feelings on that matter.
I miss jonghyun, and I know what the mom goes through
But I think she should think of her child, and find another way to honor jonghyun
I think that’s right. I liked the comment that says it appropriate for a pet, but not a human child.
really late to this but as a chinese american i often feel like i have no place in the appreciation vs appropriation discourse because i know so little about chinese culture that i genuinely can’t tell if it’s appropriation or not 😭 and then i have to factor in whether it was a genuine mistake or if it was out of malice/racism…
it’s weird because sometimes i see native chinese people orientalizing/sexualizing their own culture to appeal to western audiences (side-eyeing mihoyo real hard rn) so that just confuses me even more lmao. i feel guilty that i can’t come up with a conclusive answer half the time when it comes to this kind of discourse, but reading through other people’s opinions is honestly really interesting
There's so many comments here I would want to respond to but I'm literally already rambling so I won't. Clearly this is a very personal issue for me lol
What I will say tho, is that I have a notably Japanese first name (my mother is from Japan) and I am mixed (my father is white). And I CONSTANTLY get asked about my name. Because everyone wants to know why I, ambiguously ethnic looking person, am named the way I am. And sure, for a lot of people, it most likely stems out of curiosity, probably because a lot of POC born in the US don't often have notably ethnic names.
But that's not the only reason why they ask. They ask because they also want "proof" that I have the right to be named the way I am named. Otherwise, conversations about my name would stop at "oh that's a cool name!". But they don't. I get it from Asian people as well, because I don't look Asian enough to them. I get it from White people, who can't tell that I'm Asian. Everyone for some reason NEEDS to know why I have this name. People used to get annoyed at me for not knowing what my name meant (I know now as a result). "Why don't you know that? You should know that!".
These questions are often a test for POC in the West. And if you fail that test, you're all the weirder for it. You were already weird just by having that name in the first place mind you, it's just weirder now when the cultural tie isn't blatantly apparent.
And let me tell you, it's exhausting.
I at least can be like, "my mother is from Japan" and that can close out the conversation temporarily. But that conversation always comes back.
I don't know how this kid is going to navigate these conversations, that will inevitably happen, and how he'll have to tell people "i'm named after my mother's favorite kpop star". Not only are these conversations uncomfortable to have in the first place (when was the last time you asked Stephanie where her name was from, what it meant and why she's named that?), but also not having a cultural tie to a name in the West where whitewashing has been so dominant? Where you kind of need to have a cultural tie in order to "justify" why your name is that? In a western society where first names are at the forefront of your individual identity? I can't imagine how frustrating and exhausting that will be for him. I spent my entire youth wishing that my first name wasn't my first name. I wanted my typically Western middle name to be my first name. At least that way, maybe people would stop othering me.
I'm grown up now, and no longer feel that way, but only because I know my name was only part of the issue (turns out it's my looks primarily that are the issue). But the scars of being ashamed of my cultural heritage since I was a child, even before I knew what culture and race were, still haunt me to this day. The impacts it had to me and my identity growing up too are things I will never forget. For a kid who will otherwise have a typical white identity, in a place where that is the norm, that comes with all the privileges attached, I can't imagine how strange it will be for them to have a first name entirely unaligned with that. All just because his mom is a kpop fan.
Her knowing Korean and knowing the hanja for this name aren't going to magically erase the experiences that her child will ultimately bear the brunt of, alone at that. Do I think that's unfair? Sure, I would love to live in a world where this isn't an issue at all. But we don't live in that world, and there's plenty of studies that show how ethnic names in Western society can impact you in other places, like applying for jobs. I think she's being really selfish here, not only for not working with her partner to name their child, but for also selfishly choosing to ignore the context surrounding her and the impact it will have on her child specifically, just because she's a fan of Jonghyun. I can't relate to stan culture, so I might be missing something here, but that doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to insist on something like this imo.
This is how you get Kevins
"Kevinism" refers to a phenomena specifically in Germany where names are pulled out of their historic/social context and given out rather willy nilly which in turn means that they morph into a perceived marker of lower social classes in turn.
As a Korean who was born and raised, it’s complicated because as someone who has now lived in the US for a while I am flattered and also weirded out at the same time 😂. I’m flattered because she appreciated our culture so much to learn the language and even the hanja. That’s like REALLY impressive. So it honestly seems like it’s not appropriation. HOWEVER I’m weirded out because the child is going to experience some HEAVY bullying and confusion while growing up. Is she ignoring the possibility of a traumatic childhood for her fangirling? Also no one will ever connect her son as HER son. And sadly, in reality, no one will take her son seriously with an Asian name (whilst not being Asian) in a western country.
Having a Korean name for a middle name sounds like the best option.
I saw Jonghyun and I immediately clicked the video
Also, I think that qipao photo was irritating because that pose………
Oh but TW - Jonghyun and fandom reaction
My mom was deep in the fandom then. She was one of the international fans, flying to Korea and Japan to attend all their concerts, doing GOs, and connecting with fans all over the world.
When he passed…. Fans passed too. People were contacting all their friends who had him as their bias because they were concerned. That’s all I have to say.
Overall, as an Indian who's arguably too American for my own good(LMAO), I'd take up more the issue that she's naming her son after a dead singer than anything to do with cultural appropriation. From what other folks in the comments say, the singer died of really tragic circumstances, and honestly, as much as strangers on the internet can argue and not think it's okay, it's the child plus parents that'll have to deal with having that name everyday of their lives, and as such, I'd think at a later point in life, maybe it'd be poignant if the child at least would be given the option to change their name if they don't like it(once they learn of the origin and of the singer who died so tragically), to another name.
I'm not too fussed about the cultural appropriation aspect of this situation, it doesn't seem like it's being done for attention or is disrespectful to Koreans. If I went to India and met an Indian guy named Jeff I might be a bit curious and amused but I can't imagine getting upset (though I'd defer to people within that culture if feelings about names might be different for them).
I would just hope as a parent you realize that you get to pick the name, but it's THEIR name, that they will live their life with. Even if they're not bullied, how many times are they going to have the same conversation explaining why that's their name? It does seem a bit ahole-y to make your child's life more difficult to satisfy your own feelings, and it will probably end up with the kid having some resentment toward their mom for it.
There are actually quite a number of Indians who have Western names. A lot of these Indians either have some British ancestry, or they are Christians. There are also some Indian names that are the same or similar to Western names, like Paul.
naming a baby.. ahh yes.
as i myself have disliked the names that my parents gave me (due to bullying), for the past few years i’ve been trying to find a different name.
aside from the cultural aspect of this topic, if they go with Jonghyun or some other Korean name and the kid is white (prob growing up in Ireland), it is very likely he’ll be bullied and may or may not want to change his own name. that would prob deeply hurt the mom since Korea is so important to her…
imo would just be better off to name the baby an english name that has a similar meaning, and keep the Korean names to, like Ying said, pets and such
This is such a conflictive topic, many times it’s so difficult to distinguish when the actions have good intentions and when they don’t. It would be nice if we could all appreciate each others cultures.
About the prom pic, I’m white, but for me what makes it worse is the fact that the girls are marking a hand gesture that’s not commonly used in western culture, with the girl with the Chinese dress in the middle of the pic. For me that’s what makes it look more like she’s cosplaying
The hand gesture did not help at all, but speaking as someone who was middle/high school age at that time, that was actually a pretty common group photo pose for middle/high schoolers, at least from what I saw online at the time and at my school. I think it was based on a meme. If she wasn't wearing a qipao, I don't think that would have been a big deal, but a qipao with that gesture definitely looks sus.
@@lailahuang4575 ohhh I didn’t know that was “popular” at the time, this was my first time seen the pic. Maybe it wasn’t badly intentioned, but the combination (qipao + hand gesture) def doesn’t help her. Also, thanks for writing qipao, I didn’t know how it was written and didn’t want to make a mess
@@mercedesa1466 Yeah that's what helped the negative responses to the photo spread, the hand gesture was coincidental for the time yet a lot of people did not know that since it was pretty much just a middle/high school thing causing them to think they were connected
As someone who has experience with having a name that carries a lot of trauma, I don’t think you should put that on a child. I know it’s not the exact same as the situation with Jonghyun, but before I transitioned and changed my name, I was named after my deceased uncle. His birth had a lot of complications and was very traumatic for my grandma because she had to have several blood transfusions and nearly died. My uncle unfortunately passed not long after his birth, adding more trauma to the situation. His death also contributed to my grandparents divorce, and I don’t think my grandma ever really healed from the experience. She really struggles with her mental health to this day. At times growing up I kinda felt like a surrogate for her dead son and it caused me to have a bit of an identity crisis. Additionally, my name change was one of the harder parts for her to accept when I came out. TLDR I don’t think you should put the pressure of having a name that carries so much trauma and grief on a child, because it’s simply not fair.
Growing up in the Philippines, I never knew what cultural appropriation was. Since our most of our culture is a hodgepodge of different cultures, it never really crossed my mind. Until I heard on the news how a Fil-Am (Filipino-American) who attended her school's prom in a Filipiniana (traditional filipino dress).
She and her friends actually came together for a theme to wear to their prom, symbolizing the different parts of the world that represented their diverse cultures, Cameroon, Nigeria, India and China. She posted a picture on social media where she was with her friend wearing a Chinese dress with matching fans.
This granered a lot of attention as a result, both good and bad. And that's where the topic of cultural appropriation first came up to me.
There are people apparently telling her and her friends off for appropriating such cultures, wearing their traditional clothes as some glitzed-up versions for something like a school prom and being disrespectful to the meaning behind the outfits, especially the girl in the Chinese outfit, most likely for the same reasons as you explained you had back then in the vid.
I ended up looking more into the meaning of the term since it was new to me.
Now I kind of get how some of those people feel, but at the same time, the girl and her friends weren't doing it to make some sort of stereotype towards the cultures they were showing, and they are also a part of those cultures, so in a way they were paying homage, right?
But yeah, nowadays it certainly does feel like quite a difficult topic to tread, especially since topics like these have their very essence buried amidst drama because the internet are so quick to spread misinformation for the sake of clout. It's a very nuanced topic, and depending on how one views it, it can be appropriation or appreciation.
But I liked this video a lot, glad to know that my initial confusion on what cultural appropriation was in the first place seems to have been justified.
Regarding appreciation vs appropriation, the simplest way to look at it is that you need to place the cultural aspect in question in it's historical context. Why japan gives little to no fuck about kimonos is because although it used to be a very ceremonial clothing it's more attributed to a simple festive clothing that became a mainstream product, espeially in japan today, and hold little significance nowdays.
Another way to put it is to imagine to piece of culture in question like a black belt in martial art. To wear the black belt, you need to earn it as it is the ackownledgement of your capability. No matter who you are, as long as you are good enough, you can wear it. And it's disrespectful to wear one when you didn't earn it, because it undermines the efforts of those that did earn the belt.
So in a pratical situation, is the person wearing/adopting a different culture the guy that earned the "belt" and respected the culture in question or is he the one that wore the "belt" for the giggles.
For the kimono, everyone can wear it,because this fictional "belt" has no requirement. this comment is kinda messy but I hope I was clear enough
I used to be a people pleaser and discovered after a while that no matter what I said or did, somebody somewhere would be mad, so, I would take the same approach here that I now take with most controversial things: ask people for their opinions, mull it over, make up my own mind, and if someone still gets mad, I just shrug.
Interesting take on cultural appropriation vs appreciation. I agree that it's a really nuanced discussion tho some things are just sacred and should not be used without context (i.e. things that are ceremonial).
It's hard to explain, but to me the difference between appreciation vs appropriation is like, "Ooh, this is so cool! Everyone should see this!" vs "Ooh, this is so cool! Everyone should see me in this!"
Like I have no issue with tourists and students wearing batik regardless of race or nationality coz I know they wear them coz batik is cool af, but it stroke me the wrong way if some rando influencer post a picture of themselves in kebaya "just to look hot/exotic" without at least say what they're wearing and where it's from.
How I draw the line between what is and isn't acceptable is based on the context in which the original culture wears/does a certain thing. For example, if someone wants to wear certain clothing typical of a certain culture it depends on how the people of that culture wear that clothing. If it is worn casually than it should be okay, but if it is only worn during certain ceremonies (such as a funeral, wedding, coming-of-age, specific religious ceremonies, etc.) than it is surely *not* okay for a person of another culture to wear those things without being explicitly invited to (such as if they are participating in said ceremonies).
Anything else I find silly to mark down as 'cultural appropriation' as it is human nature to explore and adopt aspects of other cultures. This is how cultures merge and grow over time and how people of different backgrounds grow to understand each other. It may start off as simple appreciation of a certain aesthetic which then would often grow to curiosity about what caused such traditions in the first place.
Because of this I personally don't see dreadlocks as cultural appropriation as just about every race has worn them if you go back far enough. My main understanding about why people get upset about them is because it seems to be the case that something isn't cool until a white person does it. This seems to be a racial problem to me rather than a cultural one (although the two are closely tied) as the whole idea of a white person wearing dreadlocks wouldn't be a problem if racism wasn't a thing. It is bullshit that stuff typically doesn't become popular until a white person does it, I 100% see that. But that doesn't mean that white people styling their hair in a way that expresses themselves is 'stealing' from another culture as it is likely something their own ancestors did thousands of years ago. The whole thing is nuanced. If a person styled their hair in this way and then went around pretending to be black and/or claiming to suffer the same societal pressures as people of colour do THAT would be *way* wrong. But wearing it because they think it looks cool/makes it easier to manage their hair (for some people)? Don't see the issue.
I dunno, maybe it's because I live in Australia where I feel cultures tend to mix a lot faster than other places of the world (not to ignore the racism that has and still does occur here, I just feel that is mostly the loud minority vs the overall welcoming majority). People here (especially rurally) may be a bit wary of people of different cultures initially, but once they get to know them a bit and learn that they are just like everyone else everywhere they warm up pretty quick. Especially with food. I swear the basis of all cultural integration starts with food lmao. Our government's treatment of our indigenous peoples is very fucked up tho, and I'm glad they finally appear to be doing something about it and hope things keep going in a positive direction there.
I find the issue of cultural appropriation to be a bit odd as cultures naturally mix and we are causing an artificial barrier to that. There are certainly times when something is used to mock another culture but I myself tend to be pretty lenient when it comes to thay whole ordeal.
And yes I 100% agree with the food bit lol
Yeah you hit the situation in the us on the head, like, on the surface it could be seen as just hair but the difference is that little black girls get their braids cut out in schools and capable black women get rejected from jobs or asked to change to something more "professional" while wearing their hair as it grows out of their head in the workplace. The issue isn't that white people are indulging in it, the issue is that only white people *can* indulge in it
The conversation that I really found interesting was the appreciation vs tokenization aspect of Asian culture. As an artist who has taken art history lessons, it is very hard to disconnect how our culture gets appropriated by people in power because they find it exotic. I personally believe it is a problem when someone tries to take our culture, which is rich in history, and generalizes it into what they believe is exotic/fashionable for their benefit alone without any reverence to that rich history behind it.
So in this case of the original problem of this AITA thread, while I personally don’t like the idea of a white family using my culture to name their child, I still very much understand that she is coming from a place of respect for Jonghyun and really isn’t meaning any harm by it.
Very interesting topic. Thanks for the video Ying.
PS anyone who thinks that I’m misguided in my thoughts, please do discuss with me. I’m not perfect and even as a person of color I get things wrong ALL THE TIME. So don’t feel afraid to call me out.
aghh culture appropriation and culture appreciation is such a complex topic. For me it’s also hard to understand what is and what isn’t culture appreciation since I never had any experience of seeing much of my culture 😭 I’m Filipino and not many people know about the culture- neither to I even. I was born and raised in the United Stares so I haven’t got to really experience my own culture. I hope I get to one day.
Appreciation vs appropriation thing is pretty wild and like you said very grey.
Even hair styles which I don't think would be that big a deal are.
I'm black and if a dude white dude got dreads or some hair style worn by African Americans I don't think I would care or freak out really I'd say,"oh that's cool they don't look half bad on you good stuff" right. But I don't speak for everyone belonging to my race so others might get offended, tell dude to take them out,others might go as far to beat that man.
So these discussions are very interesting for that reason
A very thoughtful, nuanced discussion - not just Ying, but the other participants, too.
This debate comes up in music as well: rock-and-roll "borrowing" from the blues caused some controversy back in the day.
Contrast that with jazz taking rhythms and arrangements from South American music at around the same time (mid-century).
I love AITA videos 😭
Same!!!! Though it can be a mixed bag for sure LOL sometimes I feel like people just use them as an excuse to be divisive on purpose
I feel like what is apperation and what is appropriation to you depends on where you growup and how being x race affected your growing. For example if you grew up in a area were your culture was more accepted and there was more of a exchange, you might not feel as strong about cultural appropriation. As your culture was accepted and it was incrouged to exchange. But if your grew up in a area where your culture was not accepted and you were forced to hide it & assimulate or people mocked you for it. Then I think you might probably feel stronger about cultural appropriation. As you weren't allowed to properly express your culture and were forced to hide it so seeing people that would mock you or force you to hide your culter wear or use you culture for profit might hurt you more. There are meany layers to this conversation cause this can also lead into talks about fetishing certain cultures & how media effects how we see people of diffrent cultures (Like how people point out asians are now seen as cool or desirable due to anime n Kpop being popular now, but back when those niche they were bullied or seen as less attractive due to being just asian).
I also like how you say just because one person from said race says its right doesn't invalidate how people from said race feel it's not (I hope I worded that right). As a black person I always see people saying,, "Hey. My black friend said its fine so you guys shouldn't be mad." & that always has irked me because your one black friend dosn't speak for all of us. I respect the opinion of that black friend but to be told to calmn down from someone of another race cause there (1) black friend was okay does nothing but silance other voices in the conversation.
WELL SAID
I always appreciate the nuanced cultural discussions you introduce in your short videos. Thank you for always approaching such topics with thoughtful consideration and encouraging it in your community. :)
as someone who has been a shawol for a very long time, i understand where the wife is coming from but i completely completely agree with op. and like ying said, naming your kid that comes with a lot of baggage and the kid is going to have to find out one day What happened to him.. plus, there are so many other ways where shawols have come up with ways to honor him, by with the moon (or space in general), foxes, etc. if she Really wanted to name him in honor jonghyun, there are so many other options that are Not rooted in a culture she is not apart of. i completely understand missing him, because quite frankly, i do too! but it’s probably better to not put that burden on your unborn kid, it’s unfair to them.
plus to add, i’m really tired of people remembering him as a dead celebrity, when he was so much more to his family, friends etc. and i feel like naming their child jonghyun would make it seem like that’s how you will remember him, even if they have the purest intentions. i think in these type of situations you have to think about the real life family and friends his passing effected. because if it was traumatizing for me, i don’t even want to begin to imagine how it felt for his loved ones. of course, it’s only like a .001% chance that even kibum, taemin, jinki or minho were to find out that some random white woman named their kid jonghyun but they’d probably think it was a bit strange? when they found out some white kid in america was named after their friend who passed… i just feel like there are way more respectful ways to honor him especially because we did not know him.
LOL Great vid ying! Just got the notification hehe
glad the chat brought up the difference between people in and out of the diaspora--often i find that people are so quick to shout "well THESE folks living IN THE COUNTRY don't find it appropriative"--not realizing that those folks are the ethnic majority where they live, and their experiences with racially-charged mockery are going to be different than, say, someone of East Asian descent living in the west.
this part is sooo important. people who’ve never experienced racial discrimination before (on a social, cultural, economic or systemic level) will usually have a hard time understanding the importance of topics like cultural appropriation, no matter what race they are, and so it’s important that we listen to minority voices.
big agree on the diaspora vs. home country thing, i also think about that a lot
My mother named me after an anime she watched as a child, but my name is Terence, so there I think there is a good line. In another time line though I could have been named Kirito No Shiki Ains ool Goku. On another note, can't the mother just name the child Jhon? It's close and in her head she can still know the name came from that singer.
A lot of the redditor replies were also saying that a derivative would be a perfectly adequate way to go that both sidesteps the entire question of what kind of bullying or cultural complications it might open up! Though on the specific "jhon" naming in particular I'm not sure how I feel HAHDJAJD
Yeah, appropriation vs appreciation is a super blurry line like for example, I am half white half Chinese and my Chinese mother picked a white name for me for convenience sake. I've also been called a racist for wearing a Cheongsam my grandmother gifted me because I look white so the line is really obscure for me since I feel like I don't really belong in either group due to never having met my white family other than my father.
I didn't think that Reddit is any weirder than Twitter but with your video now I see that IT'S EVEN WEIRDER, Thank you Ying!💜💜😃
This is such a good discussion and kudos to you for being so open about it!
Oh man the qipao girl hahaha
I ain’t even Chinese, I’m Korean, and even I remember getting upset
Now maybe getting like super raged about it is overkill, but it is understandable if people felt weirded out or upset by it
Like, I imagined if someone wore a hanbok to their prom
I’d feel super iffy, too, like something’s off
But also, not them doing the HANDS. That made it even worse for me
And the whole thing about older people thinking “oh man look at them loving our stuff, that’s cool” is so true xD
I really like these kind of videos honestly. i think its mostly because they feel really safe and its always interesting to hear how others handle these kind of nuanced topics in a way that doesnt feel aggressive but very honest
isnt there a more creative way to find a name that invokes a similar meaning as that celebrity without literally being a korean name. I really dont think its apropriate
This was a really interesting video to watch and I'm glad youtube recommended it to me! Sorry for any of the weird comments you're getting by people that insist theyre not racist while saying racist shit with little nuance, tho
LOL there are always some, uh, *interesting* takes in the comments of videos on topics like this and as a whole i'm impressed by how measured and well thought-out everyone's responses have been so far
This was such an interesting discussion. I definitely think the sensitive nature of the name and circumstances complicates it. It's also a cultural thing too, right? I remember hearing that in Chinese culture we don't tend to name our children after other people, because it's taboo. Meanwhile in English speaking cultures, naming children after their parents, grandparents, relatives, etc. seems fairly common.
Right up there with naming your kids after one of the Jedi Apostles: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Leia.
This is such an awkward one... need more info. But on another note wife is giving obsessed vibes. Like Jonghyun was and still is one of my favorite performers but I would never name my child after him. It's nuance like you said.
I think some of the talk around cultural appropriation comes from a place of wanting to preserve your heritage. A lot of the talk around appropriation seems to come from first and second generation people, It may be why elders dont seem to care too much but younger people do. Its just something thats more complicated than good or bad that the internet has turned into a binary issue.
This is my first video from you and you seem so well articulated and interesting!!
This is an interesting topic as well because many people who interract with both Western and Korean cultures have two names, their English one and their Korean one.
I feel like you could easily name the son a normal English name, and if he ever goes to Korea suggest the Korean name for him. It wouldn't be weird in that case.
I can't imagine being that kid growing up and learning you have name belonging, not only to a kpop idol, but an idol who passed away in such a devastating way. Not only that, but being a white kid in this society of 'bite their head off first, ask questions later' with a Korean name is going to lead to misery for the kid who'll probably end up feeling that guilty he changes his name, or that weirded out he's named after an idol he changes it. With the info behind it, people might be more accepting, but straight up being white with a Korean name with no background info will not turn out so well. I hope she understands the future of her child is actually more important than her dedication to an idol, no matter what the impact he has/had on her life. Also her husband must have a say in this too as its his child as well. She doesn't seem to be thinking clearly since she has her mind set on what she wants to do, when she really needs to think about everyone else, not just herself.
4:04 hold on, let me get special permission from the president
As someone who was named after a celebrity and got bullied for a lot of years for it, at least name your kid something subtle. Because unless they also really like the person they’re named after, they’re probably going to hate it.
Maybe they could compromise and make Jonghyun the middle name if it means that much to the wife to name her son after him?
They could even make his first name a J name, such as Jason, so they could still use Jjong as a nickname for him around the house. It would make perfect sense
idk names have so cultural meaning behind them so I don't think it's appropriate even before considering the sensitive topic. Like if I saw someone 100% white or just anyone who doesn't look like theyre from my country I'd be giving funny/curious looks. I feel like religious names are the ones you hear across many cultures
I think if people like something they should be encouraged even if it's not their culture. So often people get hung up on the idea that culture is something exclusive to a specific set of people, when that's not true. I think more need to be encouraged to seek out other cultures with the caveat of actively learning more about it. Everyone is at different points of learning, if someone does something insensitive just because they didn't know we should encourage them to learn rather than come across harshly to them, but obviously if they aren't willing to learn or knew better that is not something that should be accepted.
Honestly, hearing you call that Qipao situation tokenism was hard to hear, since that person was literally just someone who liked something without any negative intentions. To call someone out negatively and say they can't do so is just encouraging further cultural isolationism rather than encouraging understanding of other cultures.
As for naming the child, I think it's less about the cultural aspect that makes it rather questionable, but just the aspect that the mother was wanting to name the child something for selfish reasons not considering the child's life nor the implications behind naming them after a celebrity. If you want to name a child with a "foreign" name, understanding is most important, but you also have to know your own reasons for doing so and is it really for the child's best interest.
I think that in melting pot countries the ability to explore and appreciate other people’s culture is important. More and more people are of multi-cultured family’s and that’s a good thing.
while some people are disingenuous (that’s human nature) many are genuinely interested in learning more and celebrating differences with you. “culture isn’t a collectable that only some are able to experience its meant to be shared lovingly and I think that’s what some of the older generations get right. As young people I think we get caught up in fighting battles for other people and try to keep certain things with a purist mentality but society thrives when we have things in common. loving each other by being kind sharing stories and knowledge is a very powerful thing. We can use these instances of cultural exploration to equip those people with our knowledge to teach others in our stead.
I'm white, so I haven't had to deal with racism like some others in the comment section might have, but I thought it'd be interesting to share my perspective on this
I feel like it's really situational and depends on the intention. If an individual is misrepresenting a culture, I feel like they should be encouraged to learn about that culture and have the reason for why it's wrong be brought to their attention, rather than being attacked. Many people might take an interest in cultures outside of their own, especially if they grew up in only one area. A lot of Americans nowadays are very interested in East asian clothing due to trends such as anime and kpop, I feel as though if someone is wearing or engaging in a culture, it's more likely they're trying to learn and appreciate it, even if they went about things wrong, and I think people (especially the internet) as a whole shouldn't be so quick to attack and boycott someone for a simple slip up, because that mentality will have the opposite effect.
Now, if someone is reminded and told multiple times, and still doesn't put in the effort to actually understand the culture or the people of that culture, yet continues to "use" or "represent" it, THEN I definitely understand feeling upset, because at that point they're aware and they clearly don't care enough to actually respect it.
At the same time, it's sort of a gray area. Just because two people come from the same culture and background doesn't mean they share the same perspective of what qualifies as appropriation. Some people could think having a hairstyle is fine, others could feel upset about it. Which makes it very difficult for people of other cultures to experience them because in the end somebody will be upset. It's inevitable.
The internet has sort of caused this mentality, especially in open places such as forums or comment sections, where people are very quick to swarm others over the slightest wrong, especially if it pertains to things such as race/ethnicity, culture, sexuality, the like. Most of the time it also feels like these people aren't even the ones being affected. They just decided they're right and started arguing, and then the others joined the train, even if none of them have any sort of clue as to the actual topic or issues with it. They just see a minority being mentioned.
And I think that's a pretty big part of the issue as well. It's this mentality that discourages people from actually learning about different people and cultures because even if somebody is very careful to properly respect and consider the culture, there's going to be somebody out there who gets upset. To someone on the outside, it can quickly start to be seen as an exclusive thing that only those people can understand, and most people would rather not engage with any other culture at all. Which will then lead to them being more close minded about these things.
Like with a lot of things, it feels counter intuitive. And again, like with a lot of people groups, it's tricky because everybody has their own perspective, and that becomes harder to make sense of when the person they're directed towards is out of the know.
I like to go into things (in general, I don't usually partake when it has to do with other cultures, since I don't really have a say in that. I decided to this time since it's more about the topic) with the mentality that people more often than not have good intentions, because if you just assume the worst and get upset, neither of you will have a good time. Constructive criticism is always better than arguing.
That said, this is a really complex topic and is very much a gray area, because culture is an intangible thing. No one person owns a culture. Heck, pretty much every culture has been influenced by another culture in some way, shape, or form, this has been happening for hundreds of years and this will continue to happen. It's not just a western thing, it happens with pretty much every part of the world. People will take interest in another lands food, language, religion, clothing, art, you name it, then they'll take it back to their own land, and then over time it will be changed and appropriated to fit that culture. It's just how things go. Some people will see it as harmless, and some will see it as harmful.
The difference, I guess, is that you can't really do much to stop it on a cultural scale. It's much easier to speak out or feel like you have a say when it's on an individual level.
Some notes before anybody missinterprets something (because I'm well aware I'm very bad at conveying my thoughts well-)
1. I'm not trying to speak on behalf of anybody who is affected by these types of situations. I don't come from a very cultural background, I just thought my take as an outsider would be interesting. I find other cultures and mythologies to be very interesting, because it's cool to see how different cultures experienced/viewed the world and the things that their beliefs and environments lead to. That said, I try not to use or appropriate other cultures. Even if I'm integrating cultural inspiration - such as in a design or game - I try to do some research before that. I also acknowledge that my limited research and knowledge can only do so much.
I personally would like to be corrected and educated if it turns out I did something offensive, rather than simply attacked, or having people ignore it for the sake of politeness, so that's sort of where I'm coming from.
2. It's also completely understandable to be upset over your culture, especially if it means a lot to you or you've experienced racism or appropriation in the past. I'm not trying to undermine that in any way. I myself have overreacted over such situations (that afflict me, just to be clear). But I also think it's important to be able to look back and acknowledge that yes, it was an issue, but it should have been handled differently, and try to do that in the future.
I dunno, those are my thoughts lol.
For the naming thing, I think it's both inappropriate to name yourself after someone who died tragically and from another culture? Like it's one thing to name yourself to remember someone, but as in family way, I think it's fine. But for someone who's a random celebrity. Now, there are plenty of people named after celebrities. So I guess that's not necessarily a problem? But to name someone in a different culture is really strange especially with no connection to you is just a double whammy I wouldn't have crossed.
There's a Korean adoptee in the comments who makes a good point. I don't want to invalidate them as an Asian person, but I think the subtext without growing up with your culture and parents is that they were auto assimilated since their adoption. They didn't have to watch their parents struggle and to translate things into English, adopt an English name, etc. Many Asian families adopt and English name to fit in, I hate it when a certain group of people point this out for the Asians in the US especially. It's not our fault. And in Asia, if they did, it's usually a stage name, and because names can have similar variations, they need something to differentiate themselves. I know many celebrities from Hong Kong who have an English stage name because they were under British rule for awhile.
To Ying, as someone who's Chinese myself, I could've been given an Asian name from my parent's cultures. Something Chinese, or Thai, maybe even Viet or Laos. But my parents chose not to. None of my Asian friends are legally given an Asian name. I don't know if that's your legal name, or you chose to represent yourself with your Chinese name, but it's really refreshing (a bit startling too) to see an Asian-American person actively use their Asian name because it's just really uncommon, and I'm glad you're actively promoting yourself as an Asian person with positive aspects to the culture! A lot of people use it for humor but you teach us all something with your language skills.
It's a No for me. Specially if your son has nothing that tight me to the culture. I know parents that have given their children. African names mostly because their children where born there. Or they have some attachments to the culture. Other wise it Jesus weird.
I personally don't really get the bullying argument regarding naming your child. My siblings and I all have first names from different (including Asian) cultures, despite being white and none of us got bullied for our names. Not that none of us got bullied, I was bullied for years, but I can't remember a single moment where my name was part of that.
But I've noticed that the US is vastly different to Europe in that regard
I do agree with the Diaspora vs Native thing. My own countrymen appreciate when others get to wear our clothes and cook our food (unless you really fucked up that adobo recipe, British television). Definitely nuanced
Ngl, it is a very complicated topic, but my first gut reaction is that it felt kinda cringey lol
I just feel like it’s not fair to give a child a name from a culture that they might never feel a connection to. it also feels insensitive to the family and friends of jonghyun. He had a great impact on a lot of peoples life but she never really knew him and I feel like naming your child after a celebrity is iffy no matter the situation.
I thought your chat bubbles are olympians swimming and thought this was a swimming enthusiast community
In addition to all the reasons discussed in the video to not name her son after this guy, what if she introduces the band's music to her son and he thinks they suck? That'd be awkward.
Also, I concur with 6FT5ANDJACKED: your hair looks nice.
I don’t really care about the appropriation vs appreciation, in the end you gotta remember how this’ll affect the kid. You think a child wants to know that he’s named after a K-pop idol his mom loved and he has nothing to do with? I wouldn’t be surprised if the kid gets his name changed in the future
With conversations like like this, I've always really disliked the framing of "appropriation vs appreciation" because it frames these things as if they are two ends of a diametric spectrum, with one end being bad and harmful and other end being good and harmless. By doing this, conversations then become a debate about whether the person appropriating the culture truly appreciates aspects of said culture, if they've always appreciated said culture, will they always appreciate said culture etc. Because if they can justify or prove their appreciation, then therefore, they cannot be appropriating and causing harm actually. Because they are appreciating it.
But in reality appropriating and appreciating are two separate things. Appreciation speaks to intent of an action. Appropriation is that action. It is neither inherently good nor bad, and whether or not it is harmful or harmless has more to do with context and outcome than the intent someone had when doing it. You can truly appreciate a language and culture, truly appreciate and admire an artist from that culture and want to honor them as a person irregardless of what happened to them, and still appropriate that culture in a way that is harmful. I think when we frame the conversation of appropriation as something we all do, regardless of identity, then we're able to discuss those nuances of when appropriating aspects of a culture is benign and when it's a problem (spoiler: usually it has to do with history and structures of societal power).
I do like how this particular aita ended with OP updating that their wife understood why giving their white baby a Korean name wasn't a good idea, and compromising by giving their son a name which honored jonghyun, shinee, and their son as an individual.
About the first one is that like they’re both very white and in my personal opinion it’s okay to name your kid names from other cultures but I think it really would affect your kid negatively in some sorta way :/ nta I also think that you shouldn’t name your kid after an idol bc they have they’re own identity. I think cultures should be shared and celebrated but some topics are sensitive especially if that topic has been taken away from the group and they are just now getting freedom to practice that without hate. I think maybe if the kid was born in Korea it would be more normal but a white kid in what I’m assuming to be North America being named that is kind of odd. And one example is that white people shouldn’t wear black hairstyles and I agree with this because girls get kicked out of school, bullied, and harassed for having these hairstyles so if some people can’t practice it freely I don’t think non black people should practice it
Personally for the sake of the child, I would only use Jong-hyun as a middle name and give him a western first name. He can later decide what he wants to do with those names.
Reminds me of "Koji Fox" one of the translators of FF14 who has a completely western family but was given the middle name Koji cause his parents loved the culture. He later on became so interested in Japan he learned the language and moved there and now uses his middle name as sort of a nickname there.
consider using it as a second name? if this name is truly that meaningful to her rather than a primary name you can compromise. i get it there are things i feel strongly about too and i know my partner also has feeling of their own but more than just you two there is now another person you need to add to your compromise consider the child and its feelings if it has 2 names they can also choose there own preferred name
9:50 I've read through the comments and agree with most, if not all of them (mainly because I haven't seen the racism yet, amazing community). Someone brought up that wearing cultural clothing you bought from a stall isn't appropriation, which brings me to the topic of... cultural norms? I don't know how to phrase it.
Hypothetically, if a person bought clothing from another country and wore it there, it probably won't get as much backlash because the people there are around others that usually wear that style and it's not really something discriminated against. It'll be seen as integration, and not be offensive towards the people who have grown up in that country. It's the norm, per say.
On the other hand, if that person went back to their hometown where it isn't the norm and put on those clothes, the people there are a minority. Therefore, that person wearing those clothes despite not being from their country would be more likely to be seen as offensive, as not many people do so and it can be felt like making fun of their culture.
What I'm trying to say is that something that is worn normally and seen as normal in another country is likely to be discriminated against in another because of it being more uncommon. I feel like if the qipao girl was in the position, it would be more understandable but as I honestly haven't heard of it before now, I don't think I have enough context. (Edit: Rewatched, oh dear.)
It's hard to put this into words, sorry if anything was unclear.
Have a great day!
Growing up as a Chinese in a community where my race is deemed as the minority, it was(and still is) difficult to have a Chinese name because people have a hard time pronouncing it which makes me feel guilty(even though I shouldn't) so for the sake of the child's convenience and to protect the child from going through identity crisis, I think it is better to name them a name familiar to your own culture. In addition, the child will appreciate that you gave them a thoughtful name instead of the "Because he was my favourite idol" reasoning
Second comment now that it’s not 2-3 AM and I have an actual keyboard to write on.
To me, whether something is cultural appropriation or appreciation is widely based on where it’s happening. As in, in which community and who it affects.
As was said in the video, a lot of mainland Asians will often not see something as cultural appropriation while others that live in more Westernized countries where they are the minority will think the same thing/event is appropriation. Because the lived experience is not the same.
For example, a Japanese person living in Japan will not have been mocked for wearing a yukata, while a Japanese person who grew up in the United States might have. So later seeing that same cultural element used by (usually) white people as a fashion statement will be infuriating. And it’s something I think a lot of people don’t quite understand. Like, the amount of people I’ve heard saying “Oh but that’s okay, my Japanese friend from Japan said it wasn’t appropriation.”… and it hurts too because “mainland” people’s opinion on appropriation is sometimes considered more legit because they’re 100% from that culture. But then they have 0 insight on how appropriation works in Western countries and how it hurts minority communities to let that inadequate uses go on.
It’s a big mess and I think you’re right that you can’t get universal permission on a cultural element since no culture is monolithic. But that makes it all the more tricky. I guess you go with the majority and by the impact it will have on that community (as a whole or locally)??
Bruh imagine a kid name Jonghyun Anderson 💀, anyways it’s just very weird to name a kid from a different that’s not their own, I think there’s even a country where it’s illegal to name your kid a name that’s not form your own culture. Like culture is so tied to identity it’s just really weird at best to name a kid a different culture name unless you grew up in a certain culture or have to assimilate into it to be more socially acceptable. Anyways I think a way to compromise for this couple is to use an English name with the same meaning as Son Jonghyun so the wife can appreciate her idol while OP and the kid wont have to deal with the weirdness of a Korean first name for a white person, if the wife wants to appreciate Korean culture so bad then like just have the kid attend Korean classes or sth. If the I I given a name with such a disconnect from their actual born culture they could be awkward or embarrassed or even grow the hate the culture and the person the mom loved
I feel like the term cultural appropriation is very American (USA). I'm Indonesian and when I was studying in Germany, there were Germans who wore Indonesian batik to Asian festival there, and I think it's great. None of my Indonesian friends complained either.
On the other hand, in my country, it is normal to have European/Christian name despite pure blooded Asian and Muslim.
I don't know... names are interesting because it defines your identify and also affect how people perceives you. For example, I don't think there would be a as much debate if the parents of a white kid born and raised in Korea decide to give them a Korean name on top of a more "white" name, so the Korean name would be used at school. Immigrants do this all the time, and in this case the kid does have Korean influence to their identity. But completely out of context in an European country just feels a bit weirder, although I agree it doesn't come from a bad place. Also I am not a fan of the whole naming your kid to remember someone else thing in general, but I know it happens all the time. Maybe a middle name as a compromise?
About the girl in Qipao. I am a bit mad, but not at the girl specifically. I don't know the context, if she just thought it looked pretty, if she just likes Chinese culture, or if she wore it more as a costume, etc. As long as she's not wearing it to mock Chinese people or as a costume, then it's totally fine. I am more mad at the situation, which is that since she's white she can wear what she wants, but I will have to think, would people see me as foreign or weird if I wore my own culture's clothing, would I get attacked or mocked for it?
Oh, and I should also mention-my deadname is Greek and my last name gets people mixed up even though it should theoretically be straightforward, so I've had the experience of having my first and last name butchered. I only want to change them for personal reasons, I wasn't specifically bullied for (at least, in my recollection) and the mispronounciation was more amusing to me than anything.
But Jong-hyun? Not only is he going to have trouble pronouncing his name, he's going to have trouble spelling it too...and if he can't spell or pronounce it, how are his teachers going to know? Plus, I already know he's going to be called "Jo(h)n"-because it sounds similar and is more expected of someone of his background.
有意思的是在东亚很多人会为自己取一个不是自己文化的网名，很多时候对文化挪用的强烈抵触发生在不同人种之间而不是不同国家之间。
Skipping over the debate about cultural appropriation etc. Naming children names from different cultures isn’t wrong in any way (imo) but the problem is that you should keep the names for the area in which you live.
If two people move to Korea and name their child something Korean, it’s much better. Because the child will fit in with the others. Same thing with two moving to Ireland and naming the kid something common in Ireland. The child is either 100% gonna be bullied because nobody can pronounce their name, or just make up another easier name. Also because they will probably have no relation to korean culture themselves, they might end up not connecting to their name and change it when they turn 18. Definitely gonna be an interesting conversation to have when the kid is a teen.
as a shawol, i understand the wife's longing to honor jonghyun for the talented, beautiful human he was. even in this comment section, i see people calling him a "famous dead person" but he's so much more than what happened to him, and that's probably what she wanted to honor.
however, as a korean, i do think it's weird to give your 100% white child a korean name. i totally agree with ying's point that this may present a lot of identity issues for the child & i think this is a somewhat selfish decision on the mother's part. i fully understand her heart as a shawol and she has the purest intentions, but personally, i think there are other ways she can honor him that isn't at the expense of her husband and son.
I would have said to give the kid a relevant middle name, but stick with more typical, less bullyable, first name. Seems like a simple solution to me.
I just hope that, when having conversations about appreciation vs appropriation, limitations aren't put solely on white people. I have listened to a lot of conversations about this topic, and most single out the interactions of white people as appropriation or tokenism. I think that it is important to acknowledge that any race can appreciate or appropriate. It is about the motives surrounding actions not an individual's interpretation of an act
9:14 it's because your grandparents think of themselves as foreigners to the country where as ppl in your generaiton think of ourselves as residents. Seeing another group of residents treat your cutlue as a costume is what offended you, but your grandparents who identify more as Chinese probably thinks of those white ppl as tourists who like wearing Qipao and respecting their cultural. Different lens.
I wonder what happened to the baby, considering it's been a year since the post was written.
What do you think about 2nd+ generation diaspora wearing traditional clothing from their ethnic heritage?
By blood, I'm full Chinese, but growing up in a white country with completely white culture, speaking English, etc. has me kinda wary about whether i should even be wearing stuff like qipao or hanfu.
I think everyone has their personal reasons and if you find it a good way to explore your roots, then no one can tell you otherwise. That's partially why I really wanted to share this discussion from stream; I think people are way too knee-jerky in their reactions to telling people theyre appropriating something without even fully understanding someone's reasoning. Whatever you decide, I hope you find it fun and rewarding!!
I kind of go on a tangent.
sorry
I think it's odd, but I don't think it's an issue. Many people name their child after a friend or movie character or book... why not a kpop star.
As for the comment on locs..... it's actually more of a spiritual thing. So black people wearing it as a style making a big deal out of it are "appropriating" a little. And the black people that call locs dreadlocs shouldnt talk because they clearly dont know that's an offensive term for locs because they aren't dreadful.
They also shouldn't make it seem other people's hair cannot loc up... it can just with a bit more work.
however, I understand where people are coming from when they get upset. why are people wearing styles when we get negative feedback on it, like in trouble at work. I get it. I've been there. it sucks (it was a half up half down look but my hair was natural not straight) total bs. but that's not because its locs, cornrows, bantu knots, box breads.. its because rules don't like us very much. we have to remember how this country was built. don't have to hate on anyone for sharing our styles unless it's to make a mockery or to straight up steal (I will never forget kim ks boxerbraids). The gate keeping comes from a hurt place. I get it.
If you know where it's from. Respect that community. Mind your business and live your life than it isn't a problem. It's usually Americans or western people that have an issue with sharing and again ITS UNDERSTANDABLE just doesn't mean its right.
The white people screwed every single one of us over.
but what did all of our ancestors do? they were open and shared.
appropriation
Are you trying to use a name? Know the meaning and prepare to defend your decision because that part isn't very common yet.
People are out here naming their kid apple, or a biblical name not even being religious, or naming their child after a country. then why not another person?
Again, I personally wouldn't advise her to name her kid that, but it's her kid.
I know someone named after Vanessa Williams, and they aren't American. In fact, all the kids have white names to sound fancy (one sounds like a knight lol). Why we only get to be named after white people? Names like haru, Santiago, Imani or aren't fancy or to be desired? The world is so big yet so small now, other people can find your names beautiful. We are fully able to enter an era where white boys will have Korean names. and everyone get teased as a kid. It's just a way of passage. we all had an Amanda in our school. I know my nephew is going to get it. My SIL disliked people calling my nephew Eli as a nickname instead of Elie(Ellie) so she changed his whole name from Elijah to Elie just so people wouldn't confuse the two (something about Eli being the bad elijah because there were two or something in the bible idk. who knows maybe the kids will go easy on him since he isn't from the states. But even my brother worries)
3:29 The band???? Holy crap ok yeah he definitely hasn’t done the research.
Watch the dad pick Megatron for the middle name
Damn I remember everyone calling that high schooler "kimono girl" 💀
I want to change my name legally. But I don't know how.
First you need to look the regulations or laws about name changing in your country/state. After that you probably have most answers you need, sometimes a lawyer is needed, sometimes you have to pay Money for it etc. It's different everywhere.
Where I'm from a Person can only change letters but not the whole name, there are exceptions but not a lot, you would have to pay quite a bit too.
I actually dont find an issue with the cultural appreciation part, my only problem is naming someone after someone else. It kinda feels restricting, like you are not treating your child as a new human being. I much prefer the idea of both parents coming up with a new name together. Hell, you can make a Korean name up (assuming you make sure that the name is actually Korean).
Is cosplay of traditional clothing like your yae cosplay which is about japanese shrine maiden but with a very short skirt/pant considered culture appropriation, tokenization or appreciation? Technically they are appreciating the game but also appropriating japanese culture? Also must cosplay only be limited to characters of your own race?
this is a REALLY fun question that I could rant about for probably hours hahaha but I think cosplay is an interesting space where the community norms have made it a perfectly free-flowing space; there are definitely still things that raise eyebrows (brownfacing is a HUGE issue for example) but for the most part the community has always approached it as a "anything goes" kind of space. If you want to adapt a cosplay to your culture you can, if you want to use a cosplay to explore a different culture from yours you're welcome to do it (respectfully), and if you want to just emulate the character as-is (that's the most common path, after all) you generally won't get side-eye for simply wearing a character's outfit, even if that outfit is inspired or heavily influenced by a culture that isn't your own. I think this kind of free exploration space is important, and has a LOT of value for cultural exploration and cross-pollination, but I also think it's important that we pause to consider the edge cases. Some people are uncomfortable cosplaying various characters for various reasons (I would never cosplay a hilichurl personally, for example) while others have no qualms about it, but opening up a space for that kind of discussion is a lot of fun and also how we grow to understand each other better as humans across cultures, IMO
anyways, long winded answer where I barely even got to the point LOL sorry :'D tl;dr the cosplay community is a free-flowing space where people do whatever they want but there are still places where people overstep or piss each other off and while the discourse can be headache-inducing, I also think it's important to have them and I'm glad we have a place to catalyze those conversations
okay but
Why so pretty?