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Broly vs Jiren: Who ACTUALLY Wins?
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- #dragonball #anime #dragonballsuper
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Today we are discussing one of the most contentious Dragonball Debates of all time: Broly from DBS Broly and Jiren from the Tournament of Power. Now that Broly has been around for nearly 5 years, enough time has passed to finally give a solid and concrete answer to this legendary debate!
For everyone saying jiren would win with his combat experience are clearly forgetting Broly not only gained power at such extremely fast speeds and learned to fight as he battled and quickly surpassed even goku and Vegeta's combined lifetime of combat experience through power alone.
Broly surpassed them in power, not in combat experience. He was learning as he was fighting, but he still has nowhere near the amount of techniques or battle strategies they have.
Doesn’t matter. There’s a reason why Broly couldn’t push Goku or Vegeta past their limits. I can argue that Kaioken Blue Goku and Evolution Vegeta could’ve beaten Broly. People forget that Goku was actually going blow for blow with Broly as Blue. He didn’t even want to fuse but they didn’t have Senzu Beans to restore their Ki so they had to fuse.
Jiren is still leagues above Broly and Vegeta. He’s ranked with Ultra Instinct Goku , and we all know UI Goku would’ve mopped the floor with Broly.
@@SRT_DRE you realize Goku and Vegeta were vastly more powerful fighting Broly then they were against Jiren............. Broly never let up and was completing dominating them far more than Jiren ever did.
@@shadowgl9 that’s not how Super works. They maxed out their base forms and their blue forms before they even fought Jiren. If Broly was strong he would’ve pushed Goku and Vegeta to Ultra Instinct and Evolution Blue. Broly is the ONLY antagonist that didn’t fight the full power versions of the antagonist.
Broly just looked strong cause he had that retarded strength where he can fight through taking damage. He’s the Jugo of Dragonball. And it’s ironic they have the same voice actor.
@@SRT_DREgoku and vegeta weren’t in nearly as a desperate situation, their universe was on the line in the ToP… they had nowhere they. Could teleport to.
In broly, they had numerous options and more of an easy situation.
Also, goku probably knew even the kaioken wouldn’t have done anything.
The fact that this is even a debate with lots of evidence and proof for both sides just goes to show how cracked Jiren was
What an oddly biased not-take 🤔
@@Asmokedetector😂😂😂
@@AsmokedetectorReal.
@@Asmokedetector ong
Idk why my head still says Jerin could win like goku didnt use kaio ken and vegeta didnt use the super saiyan blue evoltion, while they did that to jiren they still not even close, yeah broly might be stronger in strength but its still not that much of gap in power between them, broly was a brain-less beast destroying everything facing him, and still frieza survived agienst him for a WHOLE hour, isn't like, 5 minutes enough for jiren?
Broly's power... is... MAXIMUMER!!!!
I see man of culture
😂
Imagine a Tournament of Power 2.
Jiren: (Sees Broly, Black Frieza, and Beast Gohan)
Jiren: The fuck you want me to do here, Belmont?
As if Jiren isn't going to learn from the TOP and train with Toppo.
Jiren may just so learn UI. Or even go full power at the start.
The same full power that took on Goku, Vegeta, Freiza, and 17, all at the same time.
Kid Jiren fight Ulta instinct Goku with his base form broly black frieza is nothing
Black Frieza one shotted Pui, which is stronger than ui and mui lil bro@@shams._.sk.
All of Jirens feats are done within the ToP where killing wasn’t allowed. So in a Sense Jiren was holding back.
sure but as the statements said broly is the strongest enemy in all of dragonball. so even if you was to say that you still cant disregard that fact.
@@user-o10oo0oo0o broly nearly killed goku. A stronger goku than in the TOP
@@itsjustnatebro6926So you must believe that Broly can beat Beerus.
@@MajestiBrown and it says Jiren is stronger than all the gods of destructions. And we all believed it. So what’s so hard ab broly being stronger?? It’s all bias.
@@itsjustnatebro6926 Idk what statement you’re talking about, but Jiren was never stronger than all of the gods. Don’t say “we all believed” YOU believed 🫵🏽 lol
Broly is just an inexhaustible well of power. Even against more powerful opponents, Broly's unique transformation allows him to incrementally adapt and surpass his opponents. That's why Gogeta had to go for the kill when he did, because if he continued the fight, Broly was quickly going to not only close the gap but increase in power to surpass Gogeta. Broly is unstoppable and has the most op transformation and is the true Legendary Super Saiyan.
i wouldn’t want to admit to but you’re probably right
@xenocord7053 "That's why Gogeta had to go for the kill" the same way Jiren would go for the kill before it's too late. It's still an L.
@@pooolish334Jiren doesn’t compare in power to Gogeta, that’s not even debatable;terrible argument.
@@jbodgaf4964right! Vegeta even said “when it comes to raw power he wasn’t far removed from you and I” meaning he was close in strength to Goku and vegeta
Broly was done by the time Gogeta went for the Kamehameha. He was getting mopped and was scared. He wasn't progressing nearly enough anymore to overcome Blue Gogeta.
I think Jiren being stronger than the Gods only applies to weaker ones, like the Dwarf Guy and Belmod. Beerus himself is still implied to be a lot stronger than UI Goku during the Moro arc.
This is just the writer’s being inconsistent
@@muhammadzariff7075and yet it's what counts
Also beers does defeat all the other god's of destruction in the manga
@@muhammadzariff7075yeah they are definitely moving the goal post. Jiren was stated to be above the Gods and Whis implied that Belmod was stronger than Beerus. UI Omen was hyped up to already surpass Beerus and then you have True UI being in a realm on its own. I wouldn’t care if Beerus was stronger than them if it just wasn’t practically shoehorned in
@@muhammadzariff7075 Yeah, it's been happening with Beerus since the beginning of Super. Kinda annoying honestly, you can never say what his actual power is.
The only way Jerin beats Broly is if he one shots him because Broly, once he starts raising his power, is in a constant state of zeinkai boost. Like some others pointed out, Gogita had to finish him quickly to keep Broly from matching his strength, and that was post ToP Goku and Vegita power.
He had to likely stop him quickly because is fusion time was going to run out. The higher the level the less time he has in fusion. Even gotanks going SS3 cut the fusion duration down.
@@tomdibernardo1699 Not to mention there's the whole thing where if a fusion uses too much power, they can drain the time limit on their fusion much quicker than usual and Gogeta was literally breaking reality using his powers in that fight.
Wrong. It is Super Saiyan 3 SPECIFICALLY that is specified to cut down on fusion time(read the manga when Gotenks first becomes a SSJ3). We see that SSJ3 isn’t the cause for Gotenks defusing, as he is still in Base for a bit.
Here is the only argument I can give in favor of Jiren (and it is one that I actually stand by):
He got to the level of power he was at with individual effort alone. After the ToP he learned the power of relying on others. In the Dragon Ball universe training with someone, even if he is weaker than you, makes you improve faster than training alone. Now Jiren with that knowledge, a whole Power Troopers worth of training partners and a rival he wants to overcome, it is not far fetched to think that now he has become WAY stronger. Too bad that this is all speculation...
While the argument for Jiren's growth is intriguing, it's crucial to note that his strength wasn't solely achieved through individual effort, and Broly's innate talents make him a formidable opponent. The outcome of their battle remains uncertain.
Ain’t goku, broly, and Vegeta training together? I could have sworn they were training broly at Beerus’ planet. Doesn’t that kinda mean broly is only grown at exponential speeds and levels?
@@Everlost_Nation nah bro Beerus planet is destroyed
@Everlost_Nation At the beginning of Super Hero they are all training on Beerus' planet
@@Minecraft_Gamer-ih3gfwhere did you get that information from
Broly was tanking attacks from SSB Gogeta which is likely the most powerful being we've yet seen in Super. He wasn't keeping up with the skill level and speed but the durability was insane.
The counter point to that is by then his vessel mode was built up to withstand it. Imagine if Goku and Vegeta actually handled business instead of playing around first all the time. Never understood why they don’t just start fights in their max full power states. I’m not starting in base until I get backed into a corner I’m arriving on scene mastered UI lol
@@williamwatson9392this is Goku's part of Gogeta's personality. Gogeta wants to have fun fighting. If you quickly overpower your oponent, it's no fun
NO SSB Gogeta is not the same as UI or MUI which Jiren was 50 50 with UI
If they didn’t have plans for Broly after the movie gogeta would’ve killed him💯
I don't think you understand what tanking is
Broly basically has an infinite Zenkai, which is why he's so OP
The only issue with what you've said about Jiren just not one-shotting broly in the beginning of the fight is that he only allowed Goku to power up and use everything because Belmod (His G.O.D) told him to make a statement with Goku. The strongest there of all the other universes, if he couldn't beat Jiren then Nobody could.
But wouldn't that just make broly even more powerful like when vegeta tried to outright kill broly sparking the transformation in the first place?
@@Agentsmithwasright Only if Jiren doesn’t straight up one shot him, which he could very well do easily considering it took MUI at the time to beat him, and broly was first shown being weaker than a super saiyan Vegeta.
We could scale Broly to being above ssb. But weaker than SSJ Gogeta. (They definitely didn’t need to go blue on him 💀)
They didn’t fuse against Jiren because it was a risk of him being stronger and knocking Goku and Vegeta out of the ring.
So you could maybe say Jiren is above Vegeto (Maybe)
TLDR: Jiren would one shot Broly before he could scale.
i dont think jiren a guy who literally bashes goku for having friends and helping them would listen to a god clown (litteraly)
Also, Goku fought Topo and lost. They (Belmod, Jiren, etc) were confident Goku was no where near Jiren’s level - even at full power. If Goku didn’t get pushed into UI, universe 7 would have lost. Belmod also didn’t know how strong Vegeta is, they just assume Goku was the strongest.
In all honesty, it depends on how this fight could turn out, I mean we’ve seen that Jiren was able to actually hold his own with mastered UI Goku in the tournament of power, but then again, Broly can keep growing in power, so if Jiren tried to end it quickly he could have a chance to take a Broly down, but if he doesn’t finish Broly quick enough, he’ll just continue to get stronger.
The same MUI from T. O. P can not even touch Super Saoyan Blue from Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga. Using this argument is kinda stupid.
@@__.130
Which is odd, given how MUI is portrayed
goku says in dragon ball heroes jiren wasn’t much stronger than vegeta or goku he just used his abilities a bit more precise than both of them
@@space1814ok first off, that was Vegeta. Second off that was from super hero.
weird that people are assuming broly just infinitely grows, he didn't get that much stronger when gogeta went ssb.
Weird that aton people think high potential db characters can grow infinitely.
I'd say Jiren would put up more of a fight than Goku or Vegeta did individually, but if Broly reached full power/lssj, Jiren stands no chance
no
@@shirosatsuma4946yes
@@shirosatsuma4946 yes
It is definitely likely Jiren has gotten stronger since the Tournament of Power, but without proof can't say. I'm sure Jiren would be able to fight Full Power SSJ Broly if he did keep training though.
There is no such thing as lssj. Why do people keep saying "lssj"?
I feel like in theory Broly wins because of how fast he ramps up, but considering how Jiren is a protector of the people and Super Broly being a risk to the universe, Jiren would put him down before he got passed, as soon as it started to get out of hand Jiren would likely punch a bowling ball sized hole through Brolys chest. It's one of those where you'd have to ignore alot of logic to justify Broly winning, and I could definately see Jiren killing a villan for the good of the universe
My only thing with that is Jiren suffers from the same disease as Saiyans in that he wants to see his opponent’s full power.
the point is that dbs broly is not a villain, he was just led to rage and never been trained nor loved. This is not old broly who enjoys making other ppl suffer
Broly is the Hulk equivalent in dragon ball. His power grows with rage and quite exponentially over the course of a battle. His growth over the course of the move was insane. The reason goku and vegeta had to resort to gogeta blue Kamehameha was to create a large enough power gap to eliminate him quickly before he could match/surpass that power. Imo no character w/o plot armor fighting broly tit for tat would beat him. The same model is used for the hulk.
Bro I literally JUST posted this same comment damn near, then scrolled down to see that you had already said it lol 👏🏾
That makes Jiren Thanos 🤷🏾♂️
@@SamualWilliamsworld breaker hulk would smack Thanos. Hulk in the MCU was not the same as the comics
@@SamualWilliamsCap straight cap. Jiren ain't shit compared to Broly lol
A SSJ Broly was shown going toe to toe with a SSJ Gogeta Post-Tournament of Power(who in SSJ alone is already stupendously strong and could probably solo the entire ToP in that form alone) Broly then further transformed completely overpowering and forcing SSJ Gogeta to go Blue and was then able to take on multiple super attacks including combos from a SSB Gogeta before finally slowing down.
...Yeah, Jiren ain't winning this one bro. Broly resilience alone is on another level far above Jirens
🥇🗿
Chronological speaking, I don’t think the movie timeline is that much past the tournament of power. Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t have been that much stronger all things considering. When ToP concluded, Jiren was still the strongest after MUI Goku burned out. He pushed MUI Goku to the limits too. Then it took 3 people with 2 sacrifices to take Jiren down.
@gene081976 You do realize how Saiyan biology works right??😅 them recovering after such a intense battle means they're only "stronger" right now then they were before. Especially considering the fact that they kept training even after having gone through the ToP, just showed their hunger to grow even stronger.
I believe even Whis asked something about this to Goku as to why he wanna keep growing that much stronger especially after the ToP with Goku responding that the ToP and guys like Jiren only made him more excited
@gene081976 Broly was the answer to all of that excitement and yet they still retreated and fused
The fact is if you allow Brody to continue to fight in a battle by not taking him out fast he WILL adapt and evolve past his opponent
Broly was only getting stronger because he never fought anyone as strong as him. When he fought goku and Vegeta that was his first time fighting someone powerful and experienced so it allowed him to improve and awaken hidden potential. After he learns to tap into his power that won’t be the case anymore. He doesn’t just have unlimited hidden power how everyone thinks
but remember that he had literally 0 discipline and training, just imagine where a little training could lead him, and maybe controlling and using his rage without losing the control, he has a lot of potential growth, much more than everyone else in the db universe in my opinion@@bulletspenetrate503
@@bulletspenetrate503Jiren with his more efficient control with power could outclass base or ikari broly and lead him to evolve, i see something like that happening
If Gohan Beast couldn't KO a base Broly according to Chaper 103, then Jiren has no chance in Hell in one shotting Broly. This whole one shot thing is nothing but a myth. Broly will turn into LSSJ and Jiren will get cooked. Show more respect to the Legendary Super Saiyan.
Ya base broly was getting ROCKED by beast gohan and gohan wasn't going easy clearly and broly still got up his durability is on a different level hell gohan showed more power in those attacks against base broly than he did with cell max like wtf😂
Fax bro he’s riding him so hard ssb gogeta one shots jiren and Beerus didn’t lose a arm wrestling match to Belmond it was the other god of destruction I forgot what universe but the small yellow rat looking thing bro read the manga
You can look at it that way: Jiren was beating Golden Frieza, Android 17, Blue kaioken x20 Goku and Vegeta Blue Evolved. While Broly SSJ was on par with only Blue Goku and Vegeta, so I still think if they went kaioken x20 and Evolved against Broly they would have been able to match him even in LSSJ form. I guess.. Because Jiren was only using his normal state not even the full power against UI Goku (not MUI, after Toppo got knocked out). and by the way, the way you analyzed the whole thing I have to say its impressive!
He also faced hit and kale. Don't forget how he faced them all at once and still went all out against mui and even after that it took 17, frieza and goku in perfect sync to finish jiren as in getting him off the arena. Jiren is being underestimated and he was nerfed for mui
Absolutely mate!@@yot330
@@yot330 they even said that Jiren found a hidden power of himself after powering up for MUI goku. that means that he still has power hidden. Plus Jiren fought and won against nearly all the strongest fighters in the tournament and he still had power left to go against mui goku (jiren actually won against mui goku because goku got hit with the afterdamage of ultra instinct and jiren would have eliminated goku if it wasn't for 17) + Jiren fought alone against freezer, goku, Vegeta and 17 without a break, while the others could tag team. + Base form Jiren is stronger than SSB Ev. Vegeta and SSB Kaioken 20x Goku, while base form Broly stroughelt with ssb goku. I think MUI Goku could defeat Broly full power and full power Jiren could defeat Borly full power.
SSJ2 Kefla was above UI Goku but slower.
Imagine SSB with a fusion that has a way higher base than Kefla. That’s Gogeta Blue. One shotting everyone in the TOP.
Depends if the plots wants Jiren to win or lose.
This man actually gets it. I'm always confused when people pretend like power levels are real life. If the author wants one or the other to win, then the fans' idea of power levels doesn't mean shit. So this video is pointless.
@@GrubKiller436es and no I mean if stan lee made hawk eye one shot thor and hulk everyone would easily call that BS and call out plot induced stupidity
Power lvl are real are is author way or explaining and giving reason how something in his world functions
Or hell I made video of real life house cat beating up a real life grizzly I think it obvious to tell cat would realistically never win that fight cause it power and size difference
@@spinozilla2421 It's not BS. Look at what a simple laser gun did to SsBlue Goku.
@@GrubKiller436 they did explain goku let's his guard down, stupid reasoning I know but hey note that in that arc as promblem he has
That can apply to ANY character, not just Jiren.
For example, the goat Monaka.
Okay there we go! I always thought base forms Jiren would win but not by one shotting, as for full power forms I could never tell, great video!!
Broly's power potential is unmatched since he always gain more and more power every sec he fights someone
yeah its insane, he went from weaker than base goku/vegeta (who absorbed the power of a ssg into their base forms) to stronger than ssj gogeta in under 1 hour
I already have Broly as the winner, but with the fact that Jiren would allow Broly to get to full power before taking the fight serious I'm pretty sure that Broly would figure Jiren out & destroy him within 15 mins. Case Closed.
Isn't it the other way around? Jiren would figure out Broly since Broly is too dumb and relies on his rage and no critical thinking like even Whis said that I think lol. Also Jiren's full power in the ToP was equivalent to Goku's ui so you can say Jiren is on ui level and that was back in the past in the ToP so imagine how strong he is now and we know for a fact that Jiren's power is above certain God's of Destruction power to. Goku in his ui form is probably stronger then Gogeta since Gogeta in the movie can't even hit Goku in his ui form probably. Think of Jiren as a calm and cool version of Broly. Broly is like a wild animal while Jiren is like a Batman where he actually uses his brain.
@@richardkim3652 in which movie Gogeta wasn't able to hit UI Goku?
@@hutao3548 I'm talking about theories and what would happen
@@richardkim3652 In one of what if's vegito killed all the angels ,you can't go saying vegito is the strongest just because of theories or what if's ..
If it's in the manga or a canon movie you can use it in an argument (canon),if not what's the point of even using everyone will pull their bullshit in what if's and make the character they like the strongest
@@hutao3548 What the hell are you talking about? I never said Vegito can kill all the Angels lol.
As a guy who selected Jiren in the community poll and claims, that Jiren could leverage his skill and experience I am in shambles at this conclusion. In all seriousness though good video, I still don't fully believe that Broly beats Jiren 10/10 but I do understand and agree with the power gap and I do agree that Broly can beat Jiren in the right circumstances I just don't think it's a majority of the time.
How
How often does skill and experience win fights in dragon ball 😂
@robertothesupermutant830 Facts
@robertothesupermutant830 it’s sad, cause it wasn’t always like that. Through all of OG DB and a lot of Z, skill and strategy mattered a whole lot, and that was way more interesting storytelling.
Power is everything just look at the granolah arc with Granolah and Gas
Wouldn't this mean broly is also beyond the level of mastered ultra instinct? As jiern was shown to be able to fight on par with it for a time
Yes he would absolutely clap mui goku and jiren simultaneously in only ssj form not even full power green form
Yes, at least during the tournament of power. As of now? Well once again broly is stated to be the strongest, so he'd still win against goku or vegeta in a 1 on 1. The only mortals stronger than broly would be black frieza and likely gohan as well.
@@The_Andromeda_Galaxythats just wrong
@@alexandrosandreou8585ur wrong goku was trading blows with him in ssb mui stomps
@@alexandrosandreou8585 dude no
No one has to agree with me but this is what I think. Goku and vegeta were able to pressure jiren in the TOP (even when goku wasn’t in UI). This was seen by final flash putting him on the ground (even if it didn’t hurt him). Now we have broly who fought a full power goku and vegeta (not fatigued after prior fights). Who completely demolishes them both after transforming. Who even forces them to fuse to close the power gap. You think goku having ultra instinct makes the slightest difference?
Well, it’s safe to say that it’s kind of hard to compare them since Jiren fought goku way before broly did. Jiren no doubt got stronger but since he hasn’t came back in the story since, it’s hard to prove that he’s stronger
Honestly I don't think you even need the statements to prove this point. Its kinda present in the text. In both the anime and manga its shown that Goku and Vegeta fighting 2 v 1 can give Jiren a hard time. Ultimately its not enough to beat him in either case, but in both versions they manage to push him back and force him onto the defensive. Meanwhile in Broly's 2v1 against a presumably stronger Goku and Vegeta he's not getting pushed back or hurt at all while he's just a regular super saiyan. At max power, while you certainly can't make the claim that he's Gogeta Blue's equal he does manage to land a few shots and manages to stay on his feet after every insane move Gogeta Blue throws his way. Best case scenario for Jiren, he would manage to survive a good amount of Broly's attacks but would just lack the raw power to actually hurt Broly, and that's being charitable
This is a good argument based on actual feats! Though honestly there still is a bit of ambiguity. Jiren managed to hold back Kaio Ken Blue Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta in his base form, while Super Saiyan Broly dominated regular Blue Goku and Vegeta. Now whether those forms even exist in the movies is up in the air, but Jiren did hold back much stronger forms than Broly did. They both then power up tremendously, Limit Breaking Jiren and Legendary Broly, so there is legitimate wiggle room and ambiguity. At the very least, there’s an argument to be made that it would be close
Jiren was holding back, so using his fight with Goku and Vegeta isn't a valid feat since he wasn't trying his hardest while Broly absolutely was.
This was a really surface level video, all that was discussed were statements, not going over any feats or scaling to show how powerful Jiren or Broly are, would've liked to have seen a longer video. Sure *promotional material* say Broly is the strongest enemy but by how much? A little stronger or is it a gap as large as a one shot? The scan Lonk claimed to say that Broly "at full power nobody can even lay a finger on him" 8:36 isn't even translated so I can't fully believe him or I just suck at using Google and the translation of it is hidden somewhere. Goku should know how strong Beerus is considering Goku has seen on 2 occasions Beerus fighting Champa without caring about the survival of universe 7 or 6 to the point Whis and Vados had to intervene both times to stop them so I doubt Beerus or Champa were holding back during those fights so goku should know how strong Beerus is. A heavily suppressed Jiren just flexing his ki *not even charging for an attack or preforming an attack* shocks Beerus and later while massively holding back during the spirit bomb clash Whis confirms that this heavily suppressed Jiren surpasses the gods of destruction who then goes on to power up multiple times over the course of the TOP dwarfing the power the statement is referring to while broly has one "probably" statement after he showcases his full power. Broly has no feats outside of his movie and only promotional statements while Jiren has way more information in general both promotional and in the anime itself so it's not surprising that many argue that Jiren is the strongest out of the two. While statements are important imo feats always trump statements, and Jiren has way more and arguably better feats than Broly so I think Jiren wins. However, if statements truly are what's most important then Broly wins due simply to the fact Toriyama states Cell Max without a mind loses to broly or is at least weaker than broly, the same cell max capable of fighting and beating up both Orange Piccolo and Mystic Gohan who are stronger than Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 who either scale to Moro arc ssj blue Goku and Vegeta or Granolah arc ssj blue Goku and Vegeta which imo is enough for Broly to win however if it's just Broly during the Broly movie then I say Jiren wins but that's just me.
Best argument I've seen yet, and using actual facts and feats unlike this lame video.
@@rjb4031 yeah his opinions are fact not source material though. Lol. What is with people like you? Did you lose so much as a kid that the thought of someone being unbeatable makes you angry?
Completely agree! His logic for Broly being stronger isn’t based on a whole lot besides promotional material vs what we have seen in the show and the Broly movie. Goku said he “Thinks “ Broly might be stronger than beerus but there isn’t any evidence of that. Meanwhile it’s been stated by the gods and angels that jiren is stronger than most gods of destruction and we saw that demonstrated by how fearful beerus was of jiren.
Come join my discord if you want to talk more about this: discord.gg/WCehvdMc
I agree, promotional material is just there to hype up the movie. They will say anything.
In Beerus’s case it was already established that he DID NOT use a hood deal of his power. So, while he is still stronger than goku and gang now, during the BoG Beerus didn’t display greater power than the next antagonist being Gokden frieza. So, yes, the formula of every new enemy being stronger than the last still applies.
Beerus did get retconned tho
Current Beerus would one shot the beerus from the start of super
@@dhfiwxjftrue
I do think that it should be considered that the whole "strongest enemy" thing is probably not so cut and dry due to the general hyping of the movie. Who would watch a movie with a description: "Possibly the strongest enemy that the heroes have ever faced. Maybe he is stronger than Jiren, maybe not".
My belief for Jiren being stronger is that I believe that MUI and Gogeta blue are relatively close in strength. However, Jiren was fighting MUI in equal terms until the latter got pissed, while Broly never even stood a chance. Even Buuhan stood a larger chance against Vegito than Broly did against Gogeta.
I do acknowledge that Super Saiyan Gogeta was above SSB and therefore SSB Gogeta would be very strong, But UI Omen Goku against Jiren in the start of the last fight was already clearly stronger than SSBE Vegeta after he charged a final flash, which is evidently very strong since the multipliers for that attack are nuts.
Also, the last statement about Superhero shouldn't be considered in my opinion, since that is referring to a Broly from that movie, who has already been training and is from a time that is, at bare minimum, a year later from his original appearance.
In a random encounter match, fair chance Jiren takes it. I feel like it's implied that pre-super-Saiyan Broly has some more hard limits on things like power and speed, and without something to break that boundary for him (see: Paragus, father of Broly, late), a 'natural encounter' fight doesnt tend to favor Broly. Considering we've never really seen Jiren in a 'natural encounter' fight, having only really seen him at the ToP, while we can assume how he would behave based on his tournament showing, that's not entirely concrete.
How about a hypothetical scenario; Goku drags base Broly to the ToP because he senses a high power level from him. Paragus tags along, and is in the stands watching, and regulating Broly's rage with his remote. As the tournament reaches its conclusion, Broly is one if the last ones standing, and Jiren is in his sights. Jiren easily keeps ahead of everything Broly can throw at him, and begins to taunt Broly with his weakness, and the fact that his entire universe, including his father, are all going to be destroyed because he was too weak. As this sinks in and his rage begins to mount ever higher with the image in his mind, Frieza takes it upon himself to fire off a ki beam, destroying the collar, allowing Broly to power up unchecked by Paragus. Would he be able to turn super Saiyan with just the mental image of failing to save his father? Would Jiren be able to goad that out of him? Would Frieza have to let himself get knocked out to quietly assassinate Paragus from the stands, blaming a stray attack as he did in the movie? I dunno, but I think it's an interesting scenario to consider.
Coming from a Noah myself, I have to agree on this one.
are you saying broly wont be able to tap back into his super saiyan state?
@@abominable.7800 Chronologically, the Super Broly film takes place after the ToP, to my understanding, so he wouldn't have had it happen at all. Frieza would still be on loan from the afterlife, and Broly would not have been brought into the new Frieza Force yet by Cheelai during the search for the Dragon Balls.
It's not implied Frieza legit just states he reached his limit.
@@noahloyd9176 okay but answer the question. do you or do you not think broly can tap into his ssj state again?
MUSIC USED IN VIDEO (IN ORDER): (Main source(s): Dokkan Battle)
PHY Super Saiyan God Goku: Active Skill Transformation
TEQ LR Jiren: Active Skill
PHY Transforming SSJ --> Full Power SSJ Broly: Transformation
INT LR Jackie Chun: Active Skill
W asf bro
I look forward to the Dokkan ost comment every time
We've only seen jiren fight in a tournament where you can't kill. We might be sleeping on this guy
He couldn't fly either
Are we talking about just DBS Broly, or post training on Beerus's world? If its the latter, we don't have enough to go off of really, but its probably safe to say he didn't surpass ToP Jiren.
That's nowhere near safe to say and many evidence disproves it.
dam you changed my opinion
this is why i love your videos. you always make the best points
As someone who loves Dragon Ball and has watched a lot of dragon ball content on youtube, I've come to believe that the producers of dragon ball and everything related to it, often just talk out their ass. Fans tend to understand the material better than then the creators. You can look to Toriyama, but the guy has admitted that he forgets about things he created. While this makes for some irritating power scaling, it also makes these debates kind of fun. It's a gray area. This would be an awesome fight if written properly. My bet is on Broly, but it's not a stomp.
For me, I think things like the number for power levels, or written statements about strength, are just nonsense. Hyperbole meant to drive hype and marketing. To really compare characters who never fought, it's best to look at their actual fighting accomplishments. Broly got ruined by Gogita so you can't trust the statement that no one can lay a hand on him at full power. Jiran had restrictions in the tourament so does that affect what he's capable of? Maybe. Goku never uses ultra instinct against Broly. There's plenty of questions to ask. It's fun seeing people fill in how they understand what would happen. No need to get nasty about it either way
This is kinda why I don't trust a lot of promotional material for power scaling. Most of it is just hype material and the "strongest enemy" statements are just obligatory for each new villain by this point.
I'd like to think Jiren and Broly will go toe to toe, since Jiren easily took out the other Legendary Super Saiyan.
Kale is way way weaker than broly and broly is smarter too
His rage and pain is also deeper than kales giving him even more strength
@@dhfiwxjfbroly doesn’t know what water is 2 broly even if he is stronger jiren has demonstrated he will end a threat before it can power up further only expection being goku and ui
@@sznvxmpzdidn't kale literally walk through Kamehameha when goku was in full power blue
@@sznvxmpz kale power doesn't grow like broly said who stupid writer where frieza manage to get beat down for an hour from berserk broly and was still in his golden form and barely taken any damage yaa sure
Caulifla and Kale had to FUSE to beat Goku until he went UI whereas Goku and Vegeta had to fuse to beat Broly. Broly has canonically been stated to be the strongest enemy Goku has faced. Hell in Xenoverse 2 Gogeta legit admits that Jiren is no match for Broly.
Imagine if Broly went into a time capsule with Goku and Vegeta (and they trained as fusion Gogeta). Imagine the experience Broly would gain. There would be no debate. The only reason there even is a debate is due to Broly being inexperienced. Overall, the powers they can achieve are not on the same level.
So something to mention is that using the V jumps we know that SSB goku from the beginning of ToP is as strong as Vegito Blue from Goku Black arc. We also know that the Broly movie is after ToP. And since the beginning of the movie starts with Goku and Vegeta training we could assume that they kept training, and if they kept a linear progression then we could assume that they once again grew massively more powerful.
So the Goku and Vegeta that Broly fought would be considerable magnitudes stronger than the ToP versions that Jiren fought. And with all the points also mentioned in the video... yeah, Broly puts the hands on Jiren unless its a deathmatch and Jiren Instakills Broly.
yes, the only problem of v jumps and other official medias, is that power level in dbs is getting "rebooted". On the last arc we saw that the god of destruction power grows to the infinite, so saying that Broly is strongger than a good of destruction is problematic (and granola and gas were a lot strongger than broly, but they were weaker than beerus, the dragon literally said that it couldn't make them strongger than a god of destruction).
Strongest in the universe.
Granola and Gas were weaker than Black Frieza and Beerus cuz they were in dimensions outside of the universe.
You forgot to state the thing that Toriyama stated about Cell Max, just to prove that Gohan isn’t the strongest. If Cell Max was completed not even he would become a superhuman that not even BROLY could defeat. If Gohan is the strongest, why didn’t Akira use Gohan as the high bar.
He did. By making Beast Gohan beat MUI Goku with a single kick.
To put it even more simply Jiren was beating the brakes off of Goku, and Gogeta was having a pretty good back and forth with Broly before maxing out with blue… the argument ends there
Depends if broly is able to strategize and think straight once his anger reaches peak.
Even though Broly destroys the whole hybrid Saiyan and potential theory, i love him and i really have a tough time picking between him and Jiren. I would also add that MUI is crazy and I personally think that Jiren being able to contend with it, really pushes him forward in strength to me. I would give it a 55 out of 100 in favor of Jiren but given enough time then broly would win
I think the Hybrid Saiyan and potential theory can still exist, because hasn't it been confirmed that Broly is likely a mutant?
he doesnt destroy the hybrid having more potential thaan pure blood saiyans theory/idea, because broly isn't just some run of the mill saiyan he's a mutant in DBS similar to how freiza is the exception when it comes to strength in his race.
Broly is not a hybrid. His hairstyle stayed the same for decades.
@@mistermistermr732 Broly is a mutant saiyan yes. He is the Legendary Super Saiyan (and yea. LSSJ is canon in DBS as well. Chapter 38 of the manga confirms it)
People really be sitting here thinking ssb Gogeta surpasses an mui user. That's full cap bro. I will believe it when Whis gets hit. NOBODY can even hit him, and I am damn sure no ssb character or fusion could EVER hit Whis. Bottom line
Ayy bro I really wanna thank u for making this video I rlly love broly and people just bash him a lot for saying that he will get dogged by jiren so this video is all I needed 👍❤
This reminds me of the old Bruce Lee vs mike Tyson debate… Jiren being Bruce with superior technique & Tyson with raw power.. there’s a point where technique can’t beat power.. & Broly legitimately is so cracked every movie they’ve had to pull plot holes to even complete the movies.
Broly is the embodiment and epitome of saiyan evolution and perfect genetics. He gets passively stronger simply by living and its exponentially compounded by actual combat. He has only ever been beaten in instances where his opponent experiences a massive insurmountable power boost at the right moment and then that opponent does an op KO move at the right moment begore Broly has a chance to adapt and develop. Jiren would have to end the fight quickly right as it started. If he had that foresight, this would be a quick match. Jiren isn't as strong as Gogeta ss blue. However, Gogeta was sort of toying with broly near the end. Hard to tell power comparisons. Fans only have opinions. There's no actual writer evidence saying who is stronger.
6:27 when i see someone using that has an argument I really question myself if people is aware this is only MARKETING. I mean it wouldn't be very cool to sell a movie saying "A new enemy appears, and he is weaker than the last one" "One stoppable force appears" "The 2nd strongest enemy appears", so obviously when they will promote the movie they need to create hype for the new enemy, so they will say he is the strongest. When you going to use official sources that aren't in the original material, you need to see if he dosen't go against what we see or is mention on the Movie/Manga, and if isn't written by the fucking Marketing team.
Wouldn't a guide/decription for a new movie always call the new enemy "The strongest enemy ever"? "One of the strongest" just doesn't sound as good.
I'm not saying that Jiren would definitely beat Broly, I'm just saying that the sources used in this video are... less than ideal.
The problem is, we don't have anything to compare them by. We know that both are (probably) stronger than the gods of destruction and that's pretty much it.
It was already stated that broly is stronger, just lacked the training to control. So in the tournament of power if broly was there I do believe 1v1 jiren would have knocked him out but on the other hand broly with training....he would win
"jiren will never reach brolys power" wild assumption to make
4:00 Broly is definitely going to feel that in the morning 😂
What if Jiren has the same fast learning ability as Broly? We wouldnt know because Jiren dont have ppl who stronger than him. Look how quick Jiren rose when UI Goku came about. Im giving it to Jiren.
That’s the problem it’s just a “what if” jiren trained his whole life to be stronger than his god belmod broly surpassed belmod in 1 hour and in his first fight ever and it was even stated by frieza that training with paragus ain’t even training 😂 so you can say bro never trained and never fought
@@theycallmejay2310like what if Broly had the same type of training like Goku and Vegeta had throughout the entire series? He could probably blow up multiple universes with a single shot while in his base super saiyan form.
@@bthesilentgames Fr people don’t realize the fact that broly needed gogeta ssjb to be defeated in his first fight ever 😂😭 blud didn’t even had training according to frieza no fighting experience just nothing while goku vegeta trained their whole life even whis was training them they also faced beings like hit topo beerus jiren zamasu goku black merged zamasu kefla and broly just spawned without anything bro didn’t even know what water is and they had to fuse post TOP and go ssjb and go for the kill since gogeta at ssjb himself had a hard time knocking him down broly kept standing up and powering up like bro if gogeta didn’t go for the kill broly would have catch up or gogeta would defuse and lose broly is maybe the hardest opponent you can face someone who learns as he fights with almost infinite stamina a godly durability ☠️ like bro
Gogeta blue. That's the whole, complete, entire argument that needs to be made in favor of Broly. That's it. It took Gogeta blue to take him down. Enough said.
The Jiren fanboys ignored that jiren basically relaxed till everyone was tired.
who do you guys think would win in a fight between the Z Fighters or Scion form Worm?
Scion would destroy the Z fighters easily. Shit I don't even think the angels can beat him if he's not depressed. If he's bloodlusted the verse is fucked.
wait, there are people who think jiren would win? 😲
Yes
I am a HUGE Dragon Ball fan and stumbled on this video. After a lot of thought and rewatching the last few episodes and the Broly DBS movie, it’s not cut and dry. But now I would love to see either a fight between the two on DBH or a fan made. That would be INSANE. Excellent video.
The problem with the "the next enemy is stronger that the last enemy" is that eventually you will generate inconsistency. The first inconsistency is back to the Android arc were originally the fact that the Android were supposed to be the original end game (and Cell was a later idea) generate a lot of unexplained reason for why the Androids were stronger that SSJ to begin with. Gero never imagine that such level of power exist in first place he only knew they power level of Ozaru Vegeta as the strongest.
Them there is the whole Jiren dilema about "Its this guy REALLY stronger that any of the gods?" call him stronge than the gods generates a lot of implications that are not even clear. Goku UI was far superior to Jiren by far (in the anime). After the tournament we could asume for a lot of factors that Goku was not on the level of serious fight against Bills. So the whole idea of Jiren being superior to the gods its really weird. Specially because for some reason someone that can fight "any" God of destruction gets beat by Goku and Freezer on base form by a ring out.
I think it’s a good bit more clear cut when you include the manga. Beerus is on another level compared even to the other gods of destruction. Recall they jumped him in the match they all had. And he mopped all of them. One shot a few of them. Goku and Vegeta in manga still haven’t surpassed him. Including MUI and UE. It’s a big point. Anime implies TOP MUI is beyond beerus but it absolutely isn’t in the manga. And Goku is aware of that in the manga as they all watched Beerus mop the other Gods along with other statements, or Beerus still being able to toss vegeta around casually even after the Broly “arc”. So if he thinks Broly has a chance at being beyond Beerus, I feel that defaults him beyond Jiren who isn’t on the same level.
I think the common arguement in Jiren's favor is that it Beerus lost an arm wresting contest against the god of destruction that looks like a clown, and Whis said that Jiren is stronger than that god.
@@lowkeyarki7091 I can understand that argument from someone who only watched the anime. But with the manga when we know in terms of actual power Beerus is far beyond that G.o.D. like he is the rest. It falls flat.
@@lowkeyarki7091 arm wrestling isn't a good test of power tho
Not scientifically and not narratively
@@dhfiwxjf yup and the gods of destruction royal rumble also shows that the clown might have cheated
Nothing in the anime implied that UI was stronger than Beerus only that MUI was something even beerus couldn’t do
The intresting thing with this battle is thatbit will still be a battle. Broly is a ticking click that if not dealt with immediately will outpace experience as he did with Goku and Vegeta. The issue that arises is that Broly is, at the time, considered stronger than anyone before once he fully rages out but that would put him around MUI which especially at the time was incomprehensible. Now UI is nothing special but that initial mystique carries Jiren up. If Jiren showed up today it'd probably be comparable but these are snapshots in time.
While Goku is a good way to gauge Beerus's strength, you also have ro remember that whis made at least 2 statements about how suppressed Jiren was alread at the level of the Gods and higher, and that power later on gets eclipsed everytime Jiren powers up
Broly wins. Calling it before watching. W video
"The audience may know Jiren surpassed Beerus" God I wish they did. I can't tell you how many times I've had that argument where everyone just tells me "We don't know beerus true power, Jiren didn't surpass him"
Toyotaro said that Goku didn’t even surpass Beerus, yet you think Jiren did?
@@MajestiBrownI'm referring to anime only. Manga Beerus is clearly above Manga Goku. Anime canon Jiren surpassed Beerus.
The only problem I have with the Broly "strongest enemy" argument is that these essentially amount to promotional material advertising intrigue for the new "big-bad", or as Geekdom would say, they just indiscriminately 'hype up' the character of subject. You said yourself at the beginning of the video that despite statements of "strongest" this and "greatest" that, that it doesn't necessarily correlate to the actual standings of power in the universe, that is unless you want to say that Granolah beats Black Frieza because the manga was calling Granolah the "Strongest Warrior".
The reason I think Jiren still has an edge in all of this is more from a raw scaling perspective. Jiren was on par with Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku, the only version of Goku *ever* stated to have surpassed Beerus. Despite Goku + Vegeta < Broly as shown in the film, the same was true for Jiren in the anime, Goku + Vegeta + Frieza < Jiren. This puts into perspective just how massive the gap in power between MUI Goku is from any other form he has considering MUI Goku = Jiren > SSJBKKx20 Goku + SSBUE Vegeta + Gol. Frieza.
While it goes without say that DBS Broly Base Goku is stronger than ToP Base Goku, and I would even go so far as to say DBS Broly SSJB (vanilla) Goku is stronger than ToP SSJBKKx20 Goku, so it stands to reason that Broly's feat of overpowering DBS Goku + Vegeta is possibly relative to Jiren's Goku+Vegeta+Frieza feat. However, Goku doesn't surpass his ToP MUI version of himself until basically the end of the Manga Moro Arc. What probably puts the nail in the coffin for me is the fact that it was also explicitly stated in the ToP that even if they fused into Vegitto, Jiren still had the advantage, meaning that MUI Goku = Jiren > ToP Vegitto/Gogeta (Goku TIMES Vegeta) power, however, the Goku and Vegeta that was still weaker than ToP MUI Goku as of the Broly movie basically clapped Broly's Cheeks once they fused.
You could essentially argue that the gap between Goku Blue and MUI Goku is comparable to the demonstrated gap between Saiyan God and SSJ2 Vegitto or SSJ3. By this scaling, the gap between Jiren and Broly should be apparent. Max Power Broly's only win condition is there is "last long enough in the fight to eventually match Jiren's level", which Broly ABSOLUTELY could do. It even implied that if the fight against Gogeta continued to drag on, Broly could have possibly grown to match even that. However, same as Round 1, Jiren (even in character) won't give him that amount of time.
What a long essay of cope.
Gronola was the strongest warrior, until Frieza arrived. Like he said, he was not being counted as part of the universe when the wishes were made.
It seems we still are yet to discover the upper limits of copium.
Where did they say that if they fused into Vegito that they still wouldn't have a chance?
Just making shit up now.
Mui doesn't have to be a ssg multiplier over blue goku, literally just making stuff up. By YOUR OWN LOGIC, mui can be roughly 5x, 10x, 50x blue goku and still be enough to beat jiren, it doesn't need to be that much of a boost, nor does it have feats to support that.
If your going to use the manga stuff, you can't use the anime stuff.
Anime goku mui may be beerus level but we know for a fact beerus is still on top in the manga, Goku and Vegeta are still cautious of him and Vegeta has flat out lost to him again.
@@Asmokedetector Jiren beat Goku Vegeta and Frieza triple teaming him at once working together, a Goku who's blue went through multiple Zenkais, and had 20x Kaioken stacked on top of it, and a Vegeta and Frieza implied to be comparable. MUI's feat is essentially scaling above the suppressed Jiren that pulled that feat off. Because Suppressed Jiren > Goku+Vegeta+Frieza, and MUI Goku = Full Power Jiren, that means MUI Goku > Goku+Vegeta+Frieza combined.
In the ToP Goku and Vegeta were given the option to pull out Vegitto, after Kefla happened, they briefly entertained the thought again against Jiren, but agreed it wouldn't have worked, meaning they thought Jiren > Vegitto. This would mean that MUI Goku > Vegitto as well.
*The only way Jiren wins is by one shoting Broly at the beginning of the fight and it's not in his personality to do so, shit it's not even in anime to do so, the characters we precieve to be stronger always allow their opponents to power up! With that being said given all of Jiren fighting experience combined with the rate at which Broly learns to fight letting Broly continue to power up would be a mistake by Jiren! Remember when Broly fought Gogeta they literally broke the fabric of reality, altering time and space
I’m not convinced. Iv always figured broly had more total power than jiren, but jirens battle iq would just mop broly up. They’re still close enough for Jiren to whittle away at Broly until he runs out of energy. He’s much more experienced and would continue to hit Broly in ways that strategically weaken him the most.
Broly showed crazy adaption and was totally relentless, but that was against a blue goku and Vegeta, who Jiren easily soloed.
It’s like Thanos vs Hulk, but let’s pretend Hulk is stronger. Thanos would still win just because he was a much better fighter.
Hulk is stronger then thanos
@@upshiftclutchups665 no not in the mcu
@@Small_child_punterclearly you don’t understand this goku and Vegeta are way more stronger than TOP, so if that should be able to convince you then you just being a jiren fanboy, let alone now current broly in manga is way levels above jiren now
@@iLordxKage I read the first sentence and stopped reading there. I’m not gonna engage with a raging fan bitching about a tournament in 2017.
@@Small_child_punter but you know what’s worse after all this time and your opinion hasn’t change which is ridiculous lol
Yeah but imagine how strong Broly would be if Whis and Beerus trains Broly...like Goku and Vegeta did...just maybe the type of training they give him would probably different then Goku and Vegeta
Tbh i think there is still a way, buclke up here
Jiren(anime) vs Broly(from his movie, not super hero)
Well, Jiren os said in base surpass the Gods, right?
Then later MUI beats Jiren super hard, proving that at least in the anime, MUI is a ridicously high multiplier, as ssjBlue was not even enough to damage him at first
So, after the beatdown, Jiren awakens his powers and goes Limit Breaker( or commanly know as full power, despite the fullpower version technically being him at the start of ep 130)
Then, with this power, he is able to beat up MUI, MUI has to grown even more in power to be able to defeat Jiren
Now, with that in mind, this is the actual scalling
Mui>Jiren Fullpower/Limit Breaker>Mui> Jiren>Gods
And what about Broly? Well
Broly MAYBE> Gods
And , assuming that is talking about fullpower Broly, woudl mean that Jiren (start of 129) could actually compete pretty well with FP Ssj Broly, as Broly is, at the very best, stronger than the gods and Jiren is confirmed to be stronger
Now, if Goku refered to just Ssj Broly, then maybe with his fullpower versiom Jiren would have to go Fullpower/Limit Breaker, and even then, i assume that his Fullpower mode is stronger than 10x his base( ssjfulpower is Ikari+Ssj)
Of course, Broly could cacth up to him with time, probrbaly ten minutes lol,BUT the argument is still that Jiren, following this steatments, would be way stronger than Jiren INITIALY
But ur disregarding the statements from the broly movie also. calling him the strongest enemy and being stronger than the gods. And like we all said we cant take gokus statment cause he literally has no idea how strong beerus is. not to mention Toriyama calls broly the strongest enemy in dragon ball history. so broly still has better statements. Now talking ab feats. mf shattered reality. and it was stated "thier power was to much for the universe to handle" so it wasnt just gogeta. and then taking away the statements from super hero is just unfair. ur using jiren with all of his statements but them limiting broly to just his broly movie statments
@@itsjustnatebro6926 yes... Because i literally said that i was using broly from his movie, not super hero
I literally used goku's words to give broly and edge in the battle, because otherwise we only would have things like "wow this is the strongest enemy yet"wich is literally said to every villan in history, it was also said jt about golden freeza, was he stronger than beerus? It was said about Goku black too, is he stronger than beerus?
Now, dimensional shattering is not very impressive thing, considering buu saga character such as gotenks and super buu could already open them literally screaming. Buuhan was even able to almos destroy the entire universe using the same dimensional shattering abilitys
Also, there is no confirmation that Goku vs Jiren wouldnt be able to do that too, considering they were in the world of void, desconected from space and time entirely (wich goku could shook with his presence alone in just Omen)
And again, im not saying that Jiren would dog shit Broly, there is like one or teo ways for him to do it but that would mean downplay Broly to the minimum and Jiren to be out of characrer and knock the shit put of him
In a fair battle, Both using their most middle grounded arguments, Jiren has a chance to win for a good while, but of course Broly would catch up to him in a matter of minutes
Im just saying that Jiren against Broly from his debut movie has some chance, of course that 7/10 times Broly would win due to his high potential already, and Broly from Super Hero is a wash
@@joaoantonio4864 it’s very inconsistent. The whole “shaking the timeless void” literally couldn’t be true cause they literally time the TOP, how would you do that if time doesn’t exist. Then on top of that ofc it said golden Frieza was the strongest, AT THE TIME OF THEM FIGHTING. Then it gave the title to other people. Then at that it still says broly is the strongest in history. Not just in his movie. Also in super hero. So it’s consistent. And even if you didn’t wanna take those words. Toriyama himself says it.
@@itsjustnatebro6926 ok lets go on parts
The "why can he shale the world of void despite having no time" is the same reason as why the can talk and move in a place with no time and space, its anime logic my friend, incosistence doesnt mean its not true (same could be otherwise, consistent doesnt mean its true)
You literally just admited my point, it was said that he wa the strongest at that time, but at that time goku fought Bills, so what gives? Is golden freeza stronger than Bills? No, the "strongest enemy" title has gone to multiple and multiple villains, and we know that this can be false BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL WEAKER THAN BILLS (except jiren and broly)
And final thing, toryama statment was on super hero, and idk if you read my previous comment but im using Broly from Dbs: Broly, not Super hero, its pretty obvious that if Broly from his first movie can probrably 7/10 times defeat Jiren than Super hero would stomp him, im not arguing about that Broly, and yes with his own movie
And remember im still saying that he can win most of the times, i just think that people underestimate jiren from the anime when it comes to theses debates
@@joaoantonio4864 I don’t think bills was ever considered to be an enemy in db. So I don’t think it would hold up to that standard. Plus this is talking Ab a suppressed Beerus that we don’t even know the full power of, so the strongest statement still holds up. And imo taking away statements from a character makes is very unfair. But I see where your going with it
The OMEN of UI would’ve been enough to beat Broly. Goku had to master it in order to even go toe to toe with full power Jiren.
Speculation without evidence to support your speculations don't really make you too smart... Please stop contributing to the iq stereotype of our race.
I haven't noticed your channel, But you seem like a really cool youtube! and this video is great!
would broly be even able to touch jiren though? he landed multiple hits on mui and kept up with it too. current jiren would prolly stomp considering he hasnt stopped his training. and im looking forward to seeing jiren in the future since goku said they would meet again. but honestly mui>jiren>broly you didnt use feats either
Given he reacted to Gogeta made from a post TOP Goku and Vegeta then yeah he touch Jiren given fusion bases are stronger than their component at their max
Can't say Jiren "trains", he just captures rampaging monsters and meditates
@@spinozilla2421 gogeta is faster than mui goku?
@@ezzitina Blue Gogeta is wayy faster than Mui Goku. If you wanted to do some scaling JIrens power was close ssbe vegeta and ssbkkx20 goku.(You may be thinking why am i saying power shouldnt this be speed? Well in dragon ball the stronger you are the faster you are) Mui goku should scale above jiren so we can say that mui is like 10x stronger and faster than Ssbe vegeta and Ssbkkx20 Goku. Now when we get into gogetas power gogeta's base is at least stronger than ssb goku and ssb vegeta. Then gogeta turning ssj3 (this is the last confirmed multiplier for a transformation) would be 400x stronger than ssb goku and vegeta or 20x stronger than ssbkkx20 goku and ssbe vegeta. Not even going into any of his god forms hes stronger and faster than mui.
Let’s not forget that he ranked multiple attacks from ssjb gogeta. Yes he couldn’t keep up with him in speed, but the fact that he can take THAT much of a beating and not be at least almost dead is insane to me
Based on the movie, it seems like Gogeta SS could defeat Broly in his best form. He only transformed further to finish him faster.
I think Broly could handle Broly. And from what I saw in DBH, Broly can handle Brolly SSJ4. Ofc we will never know because the messed up the powerlevels.
Nah broly was obviously growing in power. Ssj Gogeta was dodging and flexing the entire time until broly got strong enough and fast enough to make him block a blow he couldn’t dodge he went blue to try to finish the fight cause he wasn’t gonna make the same mistake twice.
Due to the skill gap it’s reasonable to assume that at that point broly was stronger then Gogeta ssj and so he felt that blow.
For me I agree that Broly is stronger/powerful then Jiren for all the reasons given. But I'd like to add that Broly appeared after the Tournament of Power, and Beerus was scared of Broly the second he saw Broly was on his planet to train and would destroy it.
So broly is stronger than beerus 😂
The real dilema with broly is his fight experience technique and skill is basically non-existent when in comparison to goku, vegeta, beerus or jiren.. on top of that hes basically hulk from the mcu gaining strength via anger and physical pain so someone like frieza black could potentially wash broly by going for the kill instantly not allowing broly to unleash his untapped power
I think the thing that settles it is Broly required Gogeta Blue to be defeated while Jiren was defeated without fusion. Jiren had to fight like half of universe 7 at once, but you'd only be adding the strength of each fighter to get the power required to defeat Jiren. Fusion does not add, but multiplies the power of the fighters that are combined. So the amount required to defeat Broly is several times larger than that required to beat Jiren.
UI Omen > SSB kkx20 + spirit bomb
Goku goes through 3 omens, each one considerably stronger than the last.
In Various DB games Jiren laughs at fusion but does not at omen.
Powerscalers generally feel MUI is = > Fusion
(SSBx20 goku losing to fused BASE Kayle + Kefla) ---> Omen2 no selling SSJ2 Beserk form and fodderizing them
ALSO: Gogeta blue was complete overkill. It was one sided and Broly lands 0 hits on SSB Gogeta. If you re-watch the fight he adapts to SSJ1 Gogeta implying his power is somewhere between SSJ1 and SSJ2 Gogeta. IF there were no time limits on the form Gogeta could've used SSJ2 to win, BUT didn't want to risk defusing so finished the fight quickly.
Gogeta blue without a time limit could realistically fight 200-300 broly's at the same time and not care. If not more.
@@josephmangano3261you can’t defeat broly by just going to the next transformation that’s how he caught up to both goku and vegeta. Gogeta knew he had to go full power in order to defeat him so he won’t have time to adapt to the power gap , and even then broly tank multiple of Gogeta Blue strongest attacks in his arsenal( stardust breaker, Full powered punch, and stardust explosion). If you believe only a 2x multiplier can beat broly while god multiplier let alone blue is literally lowballed to be at least in the millions then you are delusional.
@@josephmangano3261games powerscaling is awful.
You mean the same games that literally show broly beating jiren?
@@SwmLeegogeta didnt necessarily use his full power but he knew that broly could adapt to things fast and thats why he used multiple moves(because broly would've surpassed gogeta)
Gogeta STOMPED Broly, while Jiren was really close to MUI.
i Love your videos
Basically Broly is the Star Wars Version of Anakin.
Goku says that Jiren wasn’t much stronger than Vegeta or Goku but he was just using his Ki more precise than both of them. So I think that Broly would catch on to this while fighting him and he would learn to use his Ki in a more precise way
Except it's a blatantly wrong statement as several times Jiren would demonstrate his overwhelming superiority by taking their attacks head on like Goku's spirit bomb and Vegeta's Final Flash. Not to mention he takes the combined might of Super Saiyan Blue Evolved and Kaioken x 20 somewhat easily. Meaning Jiren is at minimum 40x stronger than both of them in Blue form.
It was a really weird statement from Toryama to add in making me think he probably forgot most of the ToP
@@victorestrella9503 they say why Jiren seemed so much stronger?
They literally state that his Ki control was far superior and precise than Goku and Vegetas?
You see this is confusing because we see when Jiren powers up fully, Goku Frieza and 17 have to shield themselves from his power up.
I honestly think they wanted to retcon Jirens power because there were some inconsistencies with what Vegeta said in Super Hero and what Jiren showcases in the ToP.
@@victorestrella9503 Exactly. Jiren was bodying those niggas with ease
Vegeta was the one who said that actually
After the broly movie i think broly would win no question because he can easily go ssj. I still think that he'd find a way to ssj without his father dying. It would just be by breaking his limits when jiren start overwhelming him or telling him to stay down because he is weak.
Also, that arm wrestling match could have been hundreds of thousands of years ago 💀
i hope you guys remember that broly and gogeta literally BROKE THE DAMN DIMENSION
My perspective on this is how jiren wouldn’t let him gain any strength as well as vegetas statement in super hero on how jiren wasn’t much stronger than ssb, he just did much more with his power
If you mean goku ssb hes def at least 20x stronger bc goku use kaio ken x20
@@quinndemoura105 Blue Kaioken is anime Stuff, that's not real in manga and the Dbs broly takes that continuity. Plus, Jiren was not much stronger than blue physically, but have a great control of his powers that made him waaay more powerful
Jiren has def kept training but still. I guess we'd have to figure out if Jiren is as strong as Gogeta which I doubt. It also depends on what we think about UI Goku vs Gogeta. I personally think Gogeta is stronger than UI Goku specially UI ToP Goku. So Jiren in that Broly fight would have to be stronger than UI ToP Goku and maybe equal or close to Gogeta in power to win probably.
But there's also the fact Broly for now depends on his power ramping up. If Jiren goes all out from the start he would win. Base and Ikari Broly are pretty toned down. Broly definitely got stronger from the whole Goku and Vegeta fight so we're not talking of the same Base and Ikari Broly we saw in the movie but still. Jiren could definitely put down Base and Ikari. Maybe even SSJ Broly though Im not too sure.
Overall it is a cool hypothetical fight to think about. I also wonder how Broly's powers will work once he masters them. Will he be able to go all out without needing to ramp uo and get angry? Or will he just work the same but keep his sanity?
Gogeta probably beats mui goku and Jiren together
In my opinion he is the only mortal right now who can put a fight up to black freeza
One thing id like to bring up, isn't this movie literally the first time DBS Broly has ever transformed? Look at how powerful Broly is in just this movie alone and remember that he's basically a noob. He's comparable to Frieza Saga Goku in in that its their first time ever transforming. Meaning that Broly likely has ALOT of growing to do.
Some people say Broly didn't have to work for his power. But, that's only if we pretend Broly didn't have to train to learn how to control his power, create his techniques, and doesn't have the extreme desire to train that all saiyans do. Then yes, we can pretend Broly's strength didn't come from training. Even though he was born with a power level of ten thousand, not ten quadrillion or whatever he's at now.
The statements Vegeta had made about Jiren in Super Hero are greatly misunderstood by the fandom. He said, “He was overwhelmingly strong”, “His power wasn’t that different from ours” and “We’re pretty close to his level”. 1.) The first statement alone proved that he was considered a force that even Vegeta saw as overwhelming to himself along with almost everyone else there and that they might have already surpassed him with UI or UE because of their constant ability to improve. 2.) Jiren does possess a similar power to Goku and Vegeta simply because he was a mortal who just used God Ki. The reason why this is so important is due to the fact that Jiren also made actual Destroyer Gods look weak when compared to him and he still didn’t count as a God. 3.) Since Goku and Vegeta have gained power that could challenge or even had moments of surpassing the strongest mortal in Universe 7, assuming that also includes Broly at his best, it’s safe to say that they aren’t referring to UI or UE when comparing themselves to Jiren. Instead, it’s likely that Vegeta was referring to their Base Forms in comparison to Jiren since Saiyans always grow stronger through training, sparring & fighting, they usually train in their Base Forms since most of their forms have limitations that would hinder their progress and there’s not much to say that Vegeta was referring to the power of UI or UE anyways.
UI Goku and UE Vegeta don’t exist in the DBSSH Movie. The movie went into production before Goku could wilfully tap into UI and Vegeta could transform into UE.
They’re referring to their full power (SSJB) not their base forms .
Jiren doesn’t have god ki are you ok?
Also Broly is fodder in the manga bro is way weaker than manga Goku and Vegeta
I love your cake and completely agree except the fact that Jiren does NOT have God ki, which in my opinion just makes him that much scarier and monster like. Imagine what happens when or if he does... it's literally over no one would beat that
@@novacore4597 How does Jiren not have God Ki? I just don’t understand. Do we have any statements on the matter or is this all a rumor going around that I haven’t heard of until now?
@@JustADemon2023 bc everyone in the tournament can sense his energy, tien and krillin, piccolo hell not even Gohan can sense divine energy but they all could still sense Jirens immense colossal power.
If jiren had background info about broly and knows he grows fast, jiren could try and end it quick and have an actual chance. But if he doesnt, and attempts to drag the fight on...the pride troopers best members might be no more than a lifeless corpse by the end of the fight.
It’s pretty clear he won’t let broly get past ikari he stopped kale instantly
0:57, here's the issue, the level of strength beerus demonstrated and claimed to be his full power at the time is in fact weaker than any other major villain that came after him, and after he revealed that his true power is way beyond that, he's not a villain anymore
Beerus' power level has never been defined properly, when you think about it. They kept him above Goku and Vegeta by contradicting what they said about him before
We know for sure that Jiren would get Broly to the point he’d get a zenki boost, who knows how strong he’d get after that. But I think Jiren is stronger. Toe to toe with MUI, he’s just stamped.
Usually you’re on point with the scaling, but this one I think you dropped the ball hard with round 2 all these guide and promotion statements are pretty much useless since they can just be attributed to engaging excitement; except for toriyama statements little bit more credible with that; I would’ve liked round 2 more if you just compared the fact that broly had to be defeated with fusion and more power scaling
Why does that make the statements untrue though
@lonkstakes because they're contentious and he literally just told you
@@lonkstakes Because official statements have been contradictory to Toriyama’s vision in the past. We should just listen to the author.
@@YoungKingAnthonyexactly 😂
@@lonkstakes because reading what’s said in a magazine isn’t the same credible evidence as what the author says or seeing what actually happens in the anime/manga
in jirens defence if we talk about the manga jirens growth pontential is quite like brolys but instead of just outright luck jirens growth comes from his will and determenation and in the manga jiren fought against mui goku and not only the battle was even unlike the anime when goku eventually overcame jiren by a large margine but rather he actually outlasted goku
Manga TOP, being weird as always
Jiren probably already reached most of his potential
If his race isn't like sayians and gets zenkais frequently boosting up their upper limit then he wouldn't get much stronget
The last thing for him to do would probably be god ki as that unlocks a giant realm of possibilities
@@dhfiwxjf only toriyama can tell
@@dhfiwxjf zenkais aren't happening since the namek saga though
@@omega7057 they technically are just not mentioned
When Goku unlocked ui sign first it was technically a zenkai too
Dbs fans: Broly would utterly smoke Jiren, he would one shot him no diff
That same Dbs fan: Mui goku smokes Broly, broly is not touching him and mui is in a realm of his own
Me: Did Jiren not go toe to toe with Mui in the Anime having him defeated but goku got savede via power of friendship and even then Jiren won via technicality and straight up beat him in the manga ???
beerus is a special case. he isnt a typical antagonist and was holding back his power
Don't forget that Goku adn Vegueta blue forms during the Broly movie are stronger than in the tournament saga, since they continued training and probably got a senkai boost after the tournament. That should count a tiny little for scaling.
Gohan sadly slam everyone that was mentioned in this video
@@Codetrey5310yeah no
@@Unidentified_UnknownUser so you saying Jiren>beast Gohan?
@@Codetrey5310 I dont care
@@Codetrey5310if trunks can beat merge zamasu anything can happen
people tend to forget that they went gogeta in the movie and rushed to end him because he would for a FACT have caught up. This was explained that this was the reason they had to get that power boost and had to rush him off. If the battle took any longer he would adapt to even gogeta. This is the legendary super saiyan that appears once in a 1000 years. Broly is a freak of nature, way beyond even the potential of gohan. he literally got sent away for being an abnormality even in the saiyan race and a threat to the throne. Jiren might pummel him at the beginning but will end up losing. Even though gogeta won that fight by hitting him with a barrage of endless attacks ytoun can't just sit there and ignore the fact that he was actually clashing with a gogeta super saiyan blue which is fucking insane that he could even trade blows but actually tanked hits too. This is after fighting actual warriors for the first time EVER. EVEEEEEEER
Broly was fabled to be the strongest from when he was a baby. His potential is obvious to everybody including Goku. That's not the same as saying he is already the strongest. Goku even tells him about all the things he still needs to learn.
Broly in DBS: Super Hero movie was at ultimate strength because firstly, Vegeta refused to fight him because of he can become stronger with fighting and lastly, Goku was afraid of Broly becoming angrier and even Beerus was afraid of watching Broly on his planet. With all parameters even with having ultra ego form Vegeta refused to fight Broly.
Vegeta doesn’t have ultra ego in the DBSSH movie. The form didn’t even exist when the film went into production.
Vegeta doesn’t even have the iconic earring Beerus gave him.
Both Goku and Vegeta in the movie only have SSJB as their strongest transformation. The Movies, Manga and Anime are all their own separate entities and shouldn’t be considered the same
Sir you are right at some points but if this movie is canon this movie has no separate story because it may be an animation mistake that Vegeta has no ring but ultimately DBS Broly movie conducted the events after Tournament of Power which means that Goku had the Ultra instinct in that movie and DBS Super Hero has the story after the Broly movie where we can also see Broly in the Movie which means that Goku's strongest form is Ultra instinct in that movie while Vegeta has Ultra Ego because Vegeta defeated Goku which means base Vegeta is stronger than Goku but I believe it's an animation error that Vegeta has no earring.
Also we know Jiren became that powerful after a couple of years of training while Broly becomes stronger without having any training and he adjusted his Super Saiyan form to be equal to SSB in power level and created Legendary SS form to be comparable with the ancient ultra instinct and with one more form he may destroy every mortal while Goku and Vegeta have almost reached every form.
@@xp-li4hs Being after ToP doesn’t mean Goku has Ultra Instinct. As I said the movie went into production before the Moro Arc even started so why would the movie in cooperate these transformations.
Goku and Vegeta’s strongest transformations are SSJB as DBSSH is a direct prequel to the Broly movie. Its not continuing from the manga.
@@xp-li4hs LSSJ isn’t comparable to ultra instinct wdym. LSSJ in terms of multipliers is below SSJB. As SSJ Broly and SSJ Gogeta had a much smaller power gap than SSJB Gogeta and LSSJ Broly
Jiren because he actually went toe to toe with Goku in his ui form. Imagine Jiren like a calmer and more cool version of Broly.