Let's Settle This: Cordless vs Air Ratchets
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- Опубликовано: 28 мар 2024
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The useful thing about many ratchets like these is their specs on non-cheapy examples are usually based in reality, which means you don't necessarily need to choose from the ones tested here to find good power and decent speed, if you find something with similar specs in a size/price you'd prefer from a known air tool brand - buy that! A rare thing amongst tools we find.
As always, the creator of this channel works in product development for Astro Tools which also carry the 1120 and 1128 here, always consider multiple sources when looking at a tool! 
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The useful thing about many ratchets like these is their specs on non-cheapy examples are usually based in reality, which means you don't necessarily need to choose from the ones tested here to find good power and decent speed, if you find something with similar specs in a size/price you'd prefer from a known air tool brand - buy that! A rare thing amongst tools we find.
As always, the creator of this channel also works in product development for Astro Tools who carry the 1120 and 1128, always consider multiple sources when looking at a tool!
Where I work we have this thing (not really meant for wrenching on a car or 18 wheeler though):
ezeturn.com/ezepva.htm
They claim 340lbf, 45inch long
If I grab it at ~two foot mark it will be able to lift me off the ground.
Would love to see a showdown between all the reactionless ratchets available! I see that Flexzilla and air cat also have one in addition to Harbor Freight and SP air. They seem like the perfect middle ground between a right angle impact and a powered ratchet, whether it's battery or air powered.
“Air ratchets are too loud.”
*rides a straight piped Harley*
i had one of those palm sized HF air ratchets. it had only one job for me and it was good at it. put plastics back together. either timing covers, engine covers, or interior panels. it didnt have enough grunt to break anything and made the job fast.
This particular one wasn't even equipped to spin in free speed
I just use an impact driver for that now
I use a 1/4" aircat to do a lot of this. It will usually break away 8mm bolts and isn't quite strong enough usually to break off 6mm, which is nice if you don't like dealing with broken fasteners.. I almost never use a 3/8, instead I skip to my only slightly larger reactionless 1/2"
@@precesionnoreaster1507 Because fuck threads, right?
Yeah, they're good for running down nuts and bolts without risking damage. I used to use it to run down spark plugs before torqueing them. Now I use an aircat air ratchet because it has fantastic trigger control and is much quieter. Not the high torque one in this video though, that one is unwieldy and I only use it for suspension work.
This is secretly project farm's brother
Astro just makes good tools at reasonable prices. I'm yet to be disappointed with any of my astro tools.
I have a 1/4" Astro air ratchet that I have had for many years. I left it in a truck I was working on about a year after I bought it. It fell off the truck onto our dirt and gravel driveway, got run over and pushed into the dirt where we found it almost a year later. I wire brushed the out side, cleaned it in a parts washer, oiled it and it's still running strong 40 years later.
You dropped this just in time I was just wondering around harborfreight looking at them when I got the notification! Thanks now I'm sitting in my truck in the parking lot waiting this.
A cordless air ratchet would be great. No batteries needed
Like co2 guns, but I imagine you’d either need a bigger pressure vessel than a soda stream co2 canister or a small extremely high pressure one (I’m thinking like 10 times the usual pressure in co2 cartridges) to have enough volume?
That would be interesting. Not all that feasible I think but cool to try
@@lucassvedlund3851 I gave this some consideration some years back, with the idea of regulating a 4500PSI paintball tank for use with a roofing nailer. Even with a demand an order of magnitude lower between a roofing nailer and an air ratchet, a 68cu tank, the limit that I felt would be tolerable strapped to my back, would need to be refilled too frequently to be practical. Note, that I'm talking about a 68 cubic inch tank and those little CO2 cartridges have less than a half of cubic inch of volume (granted, there's more gas CO2 per volume than air in a high pressure air tank, but this should demonstrate just how many of those things you'd need).
The main issue here is that ratchets use a ton of air volume; The issue with many other tools and use-cases comes down to the relationship between number of refills per day and the complexity/costs of said refill.
Additionally, you couldn't use CO2 at these volumes, even if you could supply it, as the tool would ice/freeze up due to the evaporation of the CO2.
Another high-level way of considering the air-volume involved: A paintball gun and an air-nailer are very similar devices. A 12g CO2 cartridge will fire about 10 rounds; A 12oz refillable CO2 canister (approximately the size of a 600ml soda bottle) about 200 rounds; A 68cubic inch high-pressure (4500PSI) air-tank (approximately 1/2 the size of a 2L soda bottle) about 1000. My estimate on performance, considering volume vs pressure of the two systems, as well observing the requirements of my roofing nailer, was 250-500 roofing nails per air tank refill (68 cubic inch tank to 4500PSI). I should expect a 12g CO2 cartridge to fire 3 nails reliably. How much ratcheting time worth the air is 3 roofing nails? Even if my estimate is out by an order of magnitude, how much ratcheting time is 30 roofing nails?
Sorry to buzz-kill; it [small portable pressurized gas of some kind] does seem like a great idea...
You mean a normal ratchet?
Like a cordless hammer 🤣
An awesome I formative post and it sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of this stuff.
I have a husky impact ratchet that I found on the clearance rack for ~$10-15, works way better than my old snap on I bought when I first started working on equipment. My sole gripe about it is that it's loud as hell, which is typical of most air ratchets. Maybe you guys could do dB ratings alongside to see if any of them are appreciably quieter than the others?
I also got husky 3/8 impact ratchet on clearance. husky is fast and lots of torque, I would strip treads when tightening up, doesnt have smooth control. SP air 1/4 and M12 Gen 1 3/8 are my got to power ratchets.
try an aircat. great power, good price and quiet.
@@chrisperkins4917 I'm too cheap to replace something that isn't broken, besides, my shop is loud as hell all day anyways, so I'm always wearing ear plugs, so it's not even that much of a gripe.
I have had both the sp (in 1/4” drive) and Astro impacting air ratchets and loved them so much. There are some tight spots where they are by far the best option. The square drive broke off on the sp 1/4”, a tribute to its torque output
I've got the SP in 1/4" and it is fast and strong for its size. No problem to break loose most 10mm bolts on a car engine. I like it for the small size, but the air hose gets in the way sometimes.
You guys should do a top 10 or 20 countdown showing all the tools of any kind that you were most impressed by and why it was impressive..
I have all the snap on battery ratchets but for certain jobs i still reach for my bluepoint baby 3/8 air ratchet, can't beat that sound and power of that tiny thing
SP-7730 is reactionless and claims 450rpm free speed and 100ftlbs. I want to see this tested, SP air is legit as hell, especially after winning this.
I purchased this one and don’t recommend it. It broke multiple times and the gearing only engages when pulsing the throttle. I found another reviewer of the ratchet that said the same thing. That being said, when it does get to impacting, it can lugs off some cars.
I own one of those earthquake air ratchets, I've had it for about 3 years now. It has spent it's whole life ratcheting 5/8-11 bolts and been fixed multiple times. Its been reliable but its about time for a new one. The plastic over molding doesn't last a week with machine coolant tho.
Bought the earthquake a couple months ago and use it in a big truck shop and I love it. Granted I only have to walk 3 feet for a hose anywhere in the shop since ours is set up so well.
I have been waiting for this for so long thank youuuu
My go-to comparison data-wise and accurately reflects usage and abusage! Keep up the hard work, friends!
Every time I think I have seen your best you go on and produce something even better!
I frigging love this channel!
Lets goooo its Friday! Thanks TCC for entertaining my lunch breaks
I have an Aircat 807 mini ratchet with a swivel on it, I love that thing, its fast, has enough torque for most things you use a ratchet on, and is small enough to fit in tight places.
As someone with a air powered impact rachet (kobalt I think) the noise and required air hose makes me want a battery one as well. I usually end up just using an impact drill with an adapter where it will fit and begrudgingly get that out if I have a lot of bolts where it won't and I want more than just a regular rachet. But also the air impact rachet has quite a bit bigger head than the manual one so some spaces where a regular rachet fits the air version doesn't.
I have a Harbor Freight stubby 1/4 " drive drive rachet for about 15 years. I oil it before each use it
.It's great! I live it!
Time and time again thank you very much torque test channel for doing these types of tests. I've said it before on your reviews that I have been using air tools and electric tools and I have a full compliment of Ryobi and a full compliment and even more so of air impacting tools. I don't have a extended air ratchet like the Astro that you showed but from wrenches to ratchets I have all and more than you have showed. They are all for doing that flat rate work that I used to do.
I'm telling you man, your missing out on the Japanese air tools. Would you like to test some of my Shinano tools? I live in Australia so shipping might be a problem. Shinano also make a 3/8 air ratchet flex head. I don't have one of those YET.......soon
Trying to find Shinano reviews on YT is near impossible, but their tools are still on my wishlist
For me as pro auto mechanic if I'm taking a ratchet from my box it's because of access. My number one requirement is getting the tool on the fastener. I don't care if i have to give the tool a break away nudge and i don't really mind how slow it turns. The HF earthquake 3/8 12v has been one of the best tools for the money I've found. Highly recommend.
I have been really looking forward to you getting your hands on the dcf500.
I have an sp impacting air ratchet but with the one handed reverse/forward mechanism. Awesome ratchet, love it more then my cordless stuff
another quality video from TTC, I appreciate the astro mention, I know you always come across as a bit nervous to include stuff from them. You mentioned that you didnt personally have a hand in designing that particular ratchet. I dunno about everyone else down here, but personally id LOVE to see a tool you designed and hear about what inspired different decisions to do with it.
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEOOOO. I LOVE TTC❤
I don't think you could pay me to use the Aircat. With that much torque it sounds like a lot of bloody knuckles waiting to happen. Plus there is the chance to getting your hand pinned in such a way that you wouldn't be able to let go of the trigger. No thanks.
yea dead fingers waiting to happen
My weak M12 ratchet is bad enough
@@erik_dk842definitely can be a wrist twister or hand bruiser, finger scraper even-- if completely caught off guard and daydreaming while using it at a bad angle and it managed to pick up speed on a fastener. The nice thing though is you can use that speed to slam onto a fastener to loosen things if they are just out of reach for its torque rating.
You definitely need to think ahead with it, but it's great for suspension work where you have to run big nuts and bolts in and out with a fair amount of resistance.
@@InevitableTruth247 Imagine loosening fasteners on the side wall near the end wall at the bottom level of a cabinet where you have removed a 12" high drawer, but the rest are still in place. That's my everyday use case. Sure beats a manual ratchet.
One big advantage of air tools... They tend not to be ruined by accidental drops into antifreeze drain pan or other liquids
I love that you are now doing some air ratchets. I would love to see the ingersoll Rand 1211 MAX and the snap on ptr72
I bought the earthquake impacting ratchet on a whim and didnt use it for a year, dug it out one day and it quickly became my favorite. Way more power than i expected and super stout
I have the Snap-On Brute Long Neck rated for 70-ftlbs. Its my daily driver. I bought it before the Brushless came out (wish I got the Brushless). I also have the 805-HT. It sits in the bottom of my box at the back. Very rarely do I use it, but when I pull it out there is a reason for it. I was donig a timing cover, no room to swing my ratchet, but with the 805-HT I could rip accessory bracket bolts out no problem. Upper control arm bolts absolutely fantastic on certain vehicles.
air ratchets are just so awkward and loud.
I have both and use them daily but air ratchets are cheap compared to battery powered and are stronger when they max out in use so it’s a trade off
Kinda like ur mom
My m12 ratchet is annoyingly loud and its still big. As much as i like it, i rarely use it compared to normal hand tools
Mac sealed head 1/4" fits into places my HS 1/4" Milwaukee can't even with a hose.
They are😂 most aren’t even stronger
Now do butterfly impact ratchets. Back when I had my shop in the 90s one of my favorite tools was a 3/8 butterfly impact ratchet. Great for most under-hood jobs and dynamite for pulling oil or tranny pans.
mastercraft in canada has a electric impact ratchet in the 20v lineup. great video as always ttc but wanted you to know one brand does have one
Curious how much CFM the impact ratchets use in comparison to say for example an impact gun. Wonder if it would be feasible to throw this on a cordless compressor i.e. M18 with a flex hose and still consider it "mobile"..or if the compressor would be able to keep up during infrequent bolt removal.
Picked up the earthquake ratchet a few years ago. By far my favorite air ratchet I’ve ever used because it won’t make you deaf and there isn’t a chance of finger smashing. Definitely works well in my shop when I don’t have cordless for whatever reason.
Excellent testing. Those air ratchets are fast for sure. I can see a larger shop still using them for sure. I have not drug out the hose in a few years now for Diy projects. No matter how neat and organized I would keep my parts/bolts the hose would scatter them for me before the job is done...🤣
How does the speed compare on the Kobalt right angle impact on that gauntlet?
I just recently had picked up the Earthquake at HF a few weeks ago, im glad i did. I got a good deal off the price with the inside track club program they have. All the other brand name ones with around the same specs were way more expensive. I'd really like to know which company manufacturers it for them.
You know, I just used my Earthquake air ratchet to do some brakes on a Silverado, the whole time I was shocked by how strong the damn thing was. I was struggling to get out the caliper bracket bolts by hand. Then I remembered I had that air ratchet, I tried it and they zipped right out no problem. On the way home I was thinking to myself, "I really wish TTC made a video about that ratchet. I wanna know more about it". Well come to find out you did!! I had no clue it's an impacting ratchet! Very cool stuff! I also have one of the little palm ratchets. I think after watching this, I will have to replace it with that SP Air mini impacting! Thank you for making these videos. Not only for debunking the horribly inflated marketing claims a lot of these companies make, but also so techs like me can learn more about the tools I use. Never knew I had that tech at my fingertips, I'm gonna start using that ratchet more often!
Do the high output M12 batteries help the ratchets?
I use the cheap Supercheap Auto ToolPRO 12V 1/2in ratchet and I love it lol, paid less then $100 with the batteries and charger included. I rate it,
Hmmmm...that long Astro looks like it would be very handy in tight spaces, thanks for pointing it out!
shout out to the air impact ratchets i didnt know existed. thanks for sharing
My old Snap On knuckle buster has served me well. I am way overdue for cordless though, they come in handy when compressed air isn't an option.
My daily go-tos are IR105 mini and IR111 reactionless air ratchets. I had a company issued Snap-On cordless and threw it away due to stalling issues, NO BALLS. The cordless are too bulky as well. Although the IR-111 is no longer made by them, Aircat and Husky have taken the patents and can be purchased today.
FINALLLY THANK YOU TTC!!!!
Hey idk if you could help me find something but I have the first generation milwaukee ratchet and I just broke the yoke, I found replacement internals but not the yoke housing, I feel like the should sell that, I found some for air ratchets but idk if it is the same size but they are only like $7 instead of buying a new ratchet. Let me know, thanks for amazing content!
Another great video.
Like the 90% of us watching, I'm here for the data and to see if the "Beans" can make or literally break something.
But there are times when the experience (as the gent discovers while gathering data) provides hilarious commentary,
Hahaha!! "It's not even strong enough to get out of its way", "90 psi is enough to make it want to kill itself", "....Mating call" haha!
Been using the Earthquake impact ratchet for awhile, pretty much exclusively on caliper slide pin bolts. The dual swivel from HF makes handling it much easier and disnt seem to decrease performance. It's also been fed 130+ psi air its whole life.
I owned and used a version of the ¼" SP air impact ratchet (SP 7260RP, ⅜" model pictured at 2:00) in a professional setting and was very pleased with its high torque and speed, and small size factor when compared to its non-impact competition. It was able to reliable break loose or even *break* any ¼" or 6mm bolts and would break loose most 8mm or 5/16" bolts. It was a go-to tool for many limited clearance situations. However, the teeth in the ratchet pawls did eventually sheer off within 6 months to a year I think (this was a few years ago). It does have a genuine impacting mechanism in the pneumatic motor, but that mechanism was still driving a pawl and gear ratcheting mechanism in the head, which couldn't take the shock loading outputted by the impact motor in the long term.
I've moved on to mainly cordless tools (Dewalt) but there's a time when I use the Astro palm impact wrench and it's just godly for tight space access.
thank you sir, I will be buying the Milwaukee M12 Insider
Recently i saw a video regarding Milwaukee batteries saying that they have a RTC "feature" with some of their batteries being able to tell you how old the battery is and how many times its been charged. Have you heard of that or made mention of it at any point?
that extended astro looks really nice. Would be nice to have a tool long enough to get to weird places without having to have my hands in sketchy spots. Also great for all that leverage and keeping the felt torque down.
Can you guys test the Hercules 20 V nibbler?
My Harbor Freight cordless Earthquake ratchet is advertised as an impact ratchet and I believe it. It doesn't try an bust my knuckles in tight areas.
When will we see you compare the DCf500 to the dcf 510 please
Something that is hard to test realistically...long term durability
.I started buying air tools in the late 80's. They all still work. Cordless... ? at best you're going to go through batteries. The tools themselves probably won't last as long, also..lots of plastic.
Astro is sure a good deal. I've been replacing my still working old stuff with astro, and am impressed. Cordless seems good for drills, but I prefer air for everything else.
Another great video!!!
Why didn't you test the DCF500 as well?? Was genuinely expecting to see it a ratchet test like this.....
Makes me glad I haven’t gotten an m12 ratchet yet. Almost bought the insider, but saw from multiple channels that it has a weird issue where it skips. Maybe the next m12 ratchet will pull me in to buy
Can you test the masterForce line of tools they sell at menards?
You guys should test the DCF503EB, the extended reach Dewalt 12v cordless ratchet.
Im not a mechanic but i am a bodyman and the snap on 1/4 electric ratchet is one of the best tools ive ever bought not having to drag air hoses on interiors of vehicles and dragging air hoses on fresh painted fenders you're bolting on its really a no brainer electric FTW ive also got the non high speed 3/8 milwaukee and i like the snap on way better i have milwaukee everything except for my ratchet the trigger on the snap on is superior compared to the milwaukee.
I have the sp they used here and ik it sounds stupid but God I recommend it, I use it another on tighter spaces
I sure hope the $nap-on is better at 5x the price
@user-lp7dd7dz9m when you use it as much as i do its worth it like i said milwaukee everything except electric ratchet the snap on just kicks ass
I wish you had the Snappy to test. My Snappy air is my go to when I need a little more umph and speed.
I own both air and electric. Electric is convenient, sometimes. But I can always count on my air tools to work, always. I still have a japan made craftsman impact from 10+ years ago, I got it for free.
I've got a pneumatic IR that will absolutely murder your knuckles if you're not careful. I've also got an M12 Fuel regular speed that is super fast but has roughly zero break-away torque. That would be less of a problem if you couldn't fit a small county between the throws on the ratchet mechanism. I also have a 1/4in Matco that does pretty well and even has a bit of an impact action to it with the way it will try to break things loose even if the fastener isn't moving. It also destroyed itself within 18 months and isn't the same after installing the rebuild kit. But I did use it for a lot of things I probably should have been using a 3/8ths ratchet for.
Do that nut test with 3/8s impacts, compare them to the snap on ct861
The fact that so many air ratchets are still loud as hell makes them a non starter in any shop unless you are looking to become a local pariah.
Hey. Did you forget to hate on the IR 1211MAX impacting ratchet?
When I started in an auto shop, I had electric power tools and was a firm believer that they are superior, but I recently started investing in air tools and they are very well worth it. I don’t think one is better than the other. I like having both
I would love to see a comparison of the 1" drive air ratchets, including Harbor Freight's and Snap On, and one with the gas motor driven ones like the railroads use.
one thing that often gets overlooked is longevity and relyability. That's two areas where good air tools are far superior
I haven't y'all's archive to see if you did an evaluation of DeWalt's new battery powered ratchets. Both 12v, 20v. They have some really cool stuff.
We've done a few of them, yes sir!
this channel is so awesome for nerds
Do 1/4 tools impact and rachets plz
I have the mac air ratchet thats a rebranded sp air and i absolutely love it in spaces the my m12 wont fit
I love my impacting Earthquake ratchet-use it all the time under the hood or under the car. I can see a cordless being WAY better when working inside a vehicle.
I wish you did a dB measurement, some of those air ratchets are loud!
11:12
I cannot properly grasp the speed
Could you possibly use a normal wrench an added to the table
I have an IR 1211Max that I like the speed and reactionless is nice. Was hoping to see it on the list here. Still prefer air over the cordless options overall in this tool right now.
That Air Cat looks allot like the Napa Intimidator air ratchet. It also seems to have good power.
I like my little aircat impacting ratchet (810), but the damn air hoses... If it wasn't for the 8 inches of air fittings and unmovable hose out the bottom of air tools, I would use it all day long. After seeing that long reach air ratchet in action I think I'm going to plan on picking one up soon, looks real handy for some problematic locations. Probably try the aircat model though.
I have not made the jump to cordless ratchets yet. If I was starting out my tool collection though.... I would skip the pneumatic stuff. An air hammer is really the only thing that doesn't have a decent electric option.
I had to take my harbor freight palm ratchet apart and discard some extra springs and shorten one. The tension in the head doesnt let it spin right. Works 10x better after that
Was told by a mechanic friend of mine that according to the body shop guys, the type of impact from an automatic ratchets is more likely to snap a bolt than an impact gun. Would love to see if there's a measurable difference
It’s true, the impact helps break it loose with the hammering affect but a ratchet just applies straight torque so if it’s seized ya a ratchet is more likely to break
I assume when you say 'automatic ratchets' you mean just a normal hand powered ratchet. They don't really apply an impact to the fastener more of just linear torque.
-Mew- Oh. This will be fun to see how they figure out a demonstration.
I wonder if they can use a chain of dampers/couplings with different resistances to see which action shears more (and where) when rotating set number of turns by measuring the angle change between input/input at each link in the chain.
I'm guessing that the faster-accelerating ones would tend to concentrate the turns closer to the input at the weakest joint [1] (representing the fastener ?), while a slower one would allow more rotation to be communicated to the next weakest link [2] (representing: a flaw ?);
(input)--[1]--[3]--[2]--[3]--[1]--||
Like pulling off a bandage (?) : Try to be quick enough that that the damage doesn't propagate, or so slowly that the adhesive releases with out causing too much.
"Reactionless ratchet" in the video. You guys aren't referencing the correct products.
@@Suburbanhotrods Yeah, true. On the other hand the impacting seems to be more likely to mar the threads.
Thanks for another great test guys. This was very eye opening to see air ratchets can keep up with the battery options out there.
Would have liked to see a Snap On FAR7200 air ratchet in the lineup. Not a big fan of Snap Ons impact guns. Their air ratchets work great though.
It also might help choose what you need based out of where you you will be working from. A dyi guy might not have a air compressor for air tools
If I sent in a snap on cordless would you guys test it?
REVISIT DIE GRINDERS, PLEASE, just got the dewalt DCG426B, interested to how it compares!
Okay im ngl i didnt know impacting air ratchets existed. Now i want one. But theres actually a lof of options, a lot you didnt cover. A full comparison video video of more options would be cool
Question on terminology...
I always had known, what you call the Impact Wrench, as Impact Gun... on account of looking the part and looking nothing like a wrench.
And then the Impact Ratchet called either that, or Impact Wrench, since it operates like a ratchet, but arguably still resembles a wrench.
Was I taught wrong? Or is it a regional thing?
_(MN born and raised)_
I don't know a lot about air tools but would a 6 gallon pancake compressor run the sp ratchet? thanks in advance
Depending on the kW rating of your pancake compressor, you're looking at anywhere from 500-1500 liters of air flow at 8-10 bar pressure (sry Euro here). Air ratchets are on the lower end for flow and should work just fine from at worst 300 liters of air flow. You also won't need much buffer, because you aren't ratcheting for 10+ minutes straight, but I'd argue you most likely could do that, too. Ergo there is absolutely no reason why not. You should be able to do whatever you want with a 3kW+ pancake compressor, besides maybe some extreme sanding applications. Even a 1kW pancake compressor would probably be enough for an air ratchet. It's the non pancake ones under 1kW that have issues driving spray guns and leading to wait times removing lug nuts and what not, because they drop down to under 400 liters even at 6 bar pressure. You need a big tank and some time for those to fill the big tank, if you want to paint a lot. Air ratchets and most other mechanical air tools aren't a problem though. They are probably going to rob your last nerve on sanding applications though. Ones that are even smaller than that get you into trouble with tools that need even less flow. I'd say 800 Watts and smaller are more for hobbyists than actual work even with a big tank. Probably still enough for the occasional air ratcheting. And the extra quiet ones with small tanks can blow out dirt, fill tires or be used for air brushing among other cleaning applications. It's better than nothing, but even air ratchets will be a problem for them.
@@peteranders7106 I appreciate the detail
I know that SP Air makes a air ratchet that has the ability to rotate the head at 90 degree increments. If a tool company could combine rotating head plus the long reach of the astro in an air ratchet, that would be an absolute beast of a tool.
I have the older version of the SP & Snap on & both of them mostly just make lots of noise without the Socket actually turning. Yes they were both awesome/handy when new but after a year or so they're pretty useless!