I was raised in the Baptist church of free will salvation for 33 yrs . I believed what my teachers said about how the Bible teaches salvation. Then at 34 I had a accident that put me in the bed for 6 months and I started to read my Bible without a Sunday school book or another man telling me what it said . I questioned my salvation my whole life because it was my choice but when I read romans and ephesians without a presupposition and God showed me his power unto salvation and have never looked back. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13 ESV.
God scourges those he loves. He’ll put you in the hospital to make you realize the truth. He works all things together for those he loves. You now know what that means. That’s good Same happened to me
Your background echoes my own. I had never heard exposition of Scripture until I attended a Bible church. The Baptist churches of my youth in the ‘Bible belt’ presented what I call a ‘patchwork quilt of Bible stories’. I never understood the connection between the stories. Not until studying Scripture verse by verse within the context of book/chapter as well as authorship and audience, did I begin to understand His Word. The depravity of mankind was never, to my recollection, presented. “Accepting Jesus” was this good thing one added to whatever goodness one possessed. What resulted, like you KurtThurmond80, was constant doubt about my salvation. Had I “done it right?” Did I ‘miss a step?’ That’s a miserable way to live. The Lord showed me in my teen and early adult years just how wicked my heart could be. It was then that I realized that there was nothing I could do to affect my salvation. I couldn’t ‘accept Jesus into my heart.’ Salvation is completely a work of the Lord Almighty, by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ alone, revealed on Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone and not by anything I have done.
@kurtthurmond80 I like the supporting scripture you provided ".....But to all who did receive him....who believed" Thankfully, we are not coerced or predestined, but allowed the freedom to believe. Thanks to God for creaturely freedom, which by such he will justly judge us.
I was a Calvinist before I knew I was. No one trained me that Calvinism was true until I sought it ought later. I had a friend that died needlessly in his sleep and I turned to scripture and realized how sovereign God really was. For our good, not purposelessly, and with complete control of everything that is ever done. From salvation to the sparrow. He holds all things together and without Him everything would fall apart, from salvation to the sparrow.
I had the opposite experience. I was trained arminian until I started reading scripture for myself. One I did that I was convinced by scripture that calvinism is true
Same too. Before, I hate the view of Calvinism. When I became a Reformed(Calvinist) , I had discovered to my prayer in my notebook ( because I have a habit writing down my prayer) that I am a Calvinist. True Christian whether he/she is in the kingdom of Arminianism is a Calvinist in their prayer.
Amen. You can't trust what you don't know, so when a person repents and believes, God shows His character to the person, revealing His character to them, causing faith to take place in them, renewing them, rebirthing them.
Everything good is a gift from God but faith existed long before Jesus died on the cross. Faith in this context is not the gift this text is speaking of but salvation, because faith had been around long before the Church came into existence. What was not around was salvation through Jesus. That's the gift, that we are saved and this salvation comes by believing in Christ. If faith is the gift, then what is eternal life? Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The gift is eternal life. In other words, it's salvation. Scripture interprets Scripture and context is important to understanding as well
At about 7:30 Steve says about depravity "there is nothing we can do" well that's what dead means. I no more chose to be born of God than I did my natural mother. It was God who brought me to Himself. My confession of faith was a testimony of what God had done in me. Ephesians 2 reminds us the faith we have is a gift, even that is not of ourselves. Election produces humility. I did not seek God but in His amazing Love He found me 😔🙄🙌😍
Spiritual death means you’re separated from God and unable to bear the fruit He is looking for. That fruit is love/selflessness. No one claims that you choose to be born of God. The Gospel is a call to be reconciled to God through faith in Christ. You either accept in faith or reject. If you accept, then God chooses to regenerate you. Eph 2 is speaking of salvation. Salvation is a gift because it’s by grace through faith and not by works. To say that it’s faith and that faith is not of works seems really strange.
Very wrong. Death is a seperation of the spirit from the body. In Paul's analogy in Ephesians two he compares unbelievers to a corpse, meaning they do not have the indwelling Spirit. A person receives the Spirit by believing in Christ. Unconditional election is not in the Bible. It is only in the calvinistic textbooks. A person who is dead in sins will either except or reject Christ upon hearing the gospel. Irresistable grace is not in the Bible either. That is the most foolish doctrine I have ever heard. Stephen rebuked the Jews saying they always resisted the Holy Spirit. The bible is full of instances of people who reject grace.
@@bibleblessingsministries2964 The spirit is what causes the belief. The man without it is an enemy of God. You must be elected to receive the spirit and then believe. Jesus says you don’t believe because you’re not my sheep. Being his sheep is required first for believe. And his sheep will believe. It’s guaranteed. Jesus said so.
You got it right my friend...james white said that but the bible doesn't even as dead people we do plenty of things dead only means separation from God. you mentioned ephesians 2 and this is what it says. ...read specially 2:2 when it says when you followed the ways of the world It talks of very active people just on the wrong path. To the jews the lord jesus said if you do not repent you will die in your sins. A very strong if. EPHESIANS 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved.......we were made alive in christ when we believe. God in the old testament said to the jews whom at that time were siinners like the rest of us I have put life and death before you choose life so yoj can live. For I desire not the death of the sinner.
@@coryalbright9798 Not according to Calvinism it's not. From what some Calvinists have explained to me, you need Irresistible Grace first in order to believe the Gospel. In which case, according to Calvinism, a person is saved *so that they can THEN* believe the Gospel.
Also, "God did something supernatural for the new birth to happen." No one is arguing against that. The question is, what must one do to be born again? *Believe* . Something that everyone is capable of. Colossians 2:12 KJVS Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are *risen with him* THROUGH THE FAITH of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Eternal life is a gift that must be received. Romans 5:17-18 KJVS For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which RECEIVE* abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. *receive is active, here.
Steve is not addressing the scriptures that Dr White presents to make his case. Too many christians dont want to accept the reality, the truth that is revealed in scriptures. It affects our very pride and its too hard to accept. I was one of those, and by the grace of God he humbles me. I have a better appreciation for our Lord and Savior.
Steve Gregg’s Statement that if you read the Bible you won’t come to the conclusion of Calvinism without first being taught Calvinism is wrong. I was always taught that man had free will to choose salvation and I never heard the Calvinist position but when I read Romans 9 I understood it clear as day.
Branden Levi, So, you think now that Calvinism is a true bible doctrine? If you do, you are deceived..... I am not Arminian, but I know that both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong... But Calvinism is more evil.....
Reynaldo, how do you know that your understanding about "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" are true and that the original commenter's understanding is wrong?
Study the word bro, the context is about Israel for a time read 9 10 and 11, God can and will graft them back in if they believe the message and not continue in there stiff neck rejection of revieled truth, remember Isaiah 53 says who have believed our report, rejectors go into greater darkness, study in context, context oh did I say context
Let me be honest here. Before I knew that Calvinism and Arminianism existed I thought all Christians were on the same page. When I came to believe, two truths were revealed to me. 1. I did not chose to believe the One True God. He revealed himself to me and revealed that His death in the cross was real and that it was for me. I didn’t come to just believe that. 2. The word sovereign did not ring any understanding until I began to understand the nature of God. He is truly sovereign and controls everything for His glory. I humble myself to say this. My feelings are more comfortable with Arminianism, but scripture and the Holy Spirit leads me to believe truly in the theology of Calvinism.
@pghmoore A couple of thoughts: 1. You did choose to believe the one true God. God can't believe for you, can He? 2. The word sovereign does not mean, God controls everything. It means that He has the right to rule as He pleases. The word does not state or imply how the sovereign chooses to govern. I think I do understand where you are coming from and am not trying to undermine your experience with God. I would just say that Calvinism is not the right lens to view your salvation experience through. God knew that you would not come on your own so He sent His Son who The Bible says came to seek and save the lost. When He revealed Himself to you, you believe and were saved. you didn't save yourself all you "did" was to accept the atonement that was freely offered. God Bless
Yeah he is closest to someone like John Miley as far as Arminianism goes. But his view of total depravity is not the same as an Arminian like Matthew Pinson or Roger Olson.
@@huntsman528 Jesus(ism), he is the one who he would lose none but raise them up on that day. Jesus sets the tradition, I would say Paul is traditional
@@kgar5String He did lose one that the father had given Him, Judas. Jesusism doesn't take one verse out of context to build a doctrine like Absolute Inability in the same way that the Manicheans did. That is the origin of the interpretation you are referring to. The early church fought against this wrong interpretation of scripture for hundreds of years after the apostles. The Father only drew certain individuals to His son prior to Jesus's death. After His death we know that it changed from a limited drawing of disciples to drawing of the whole world. You have to keep reading. John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
What I think is an important aspect of "Christianity" is how it spread throughout the world and still does today. The problem with "Total Depravity" is, in general saints/church members/believers have zero responsibility to witness the love of God to others'. How does Christianity spread throughout the world if no one witnessed? Which people do you witness to? Those that God has called, right? How do human believers know who God's called?
We witness for a very simple reason: because God told us to. It is not our decision who accepts it or who God calls to believe. That is in His control. We proclaim the gospel to all who will listen because God says to. Why else would we proclaim? Because WE have the power to save those who hear? No. It is all in His control. We proclaim for His glory.
I think people become as Steve said, non Calvinist, via tradition. After you actually start reading 📖 it becomes apparent that the Calvinist view on Gods sovereignty is incredibly accurate
Accurate only to james white he will reject and act like a child to a source that doesn’t coincide with his false doctrine claiming that “theologians” don’t accept. Well the “school” of theologians are not accepted by the Bible. What school of theology did Christ go to? 😆
Calvinists believe Regeneration precedes faith. I thought we were filled with the spirit after belief? Nah bro. Calvinism has its problems. Every point of Calvinism can be disproved with a careful, exegetical reading of scripture. Hence why there’s so many warning passages about falling away/conditional security (Jude, John 15, so on and so forth). L and P are the easiest to destroy…But for sake of time I’ll go with U. Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Sounds totally like Unconditional Election. Just one verse of many, many, many. Calvinism is Augustinianism. Augustinianism is Manichean Gnosticism repackaged. You will not find the early church fathers holding your views until Augustine…because he was a former Manichean gnostic who apparently had a hard time letting go of their teachings. I was a Calvinist, and there are many Calvinists who come out of it by reading scripture. Brenda Nickel has a whole book about her experience and why she left for free online. Just google her name and Reformed and it’ll pop up. Leighton Flowers is a former Calvinist. I’d say look into the systems you believe. People don’t arrive at Calvinism thru reading the Bible carefully. Even Romans 9 isn’t what Calvinists make it out to be. Get a reference Bible, not a study Bible, and look at the references. Also take Romans 9-11 as a whole. It’s about Israel. Romans 11 also discusses Gentiles being grafted in…notice there’s a warning passage about being broken off the olive tree…Romans 9-11 is about Israel and gentiles, and God turning to the Gentiles. Not individuals. Again check the references on Jacob have I loved…it’s a reference to Israel and Edom. I’m not an Arminian…I couldn’t tell you about the remonstrance or Arminius really, though I clearly see in the Bible that we have wonderful promises of having assurance, and God will keep us, if we continue in the faith, and not depart, or shipwreck. God bless you bro.
Except it doesn't say "to turn it for good", that is adding to the text. All we know is both parties had their part, but we have other evidence in scripture that shows God does orchestrate what happens like the crucifixion of Christ, which was predestined to happen exactly how, when, and by whom. I appeal to the mystery of it, I believe man is responsible, yet God is Sovereign, and I have no idea how that works, but that seems to be what scripture teaches, which is why you have good arguments from both camps. God-bless
Read: “But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, TO BRING TO PASS, as it is this day, to save much people alive.” Genesis 50:20 KJV God turned it for good is implied in the text.
@@1999dove I don't disagree with this particular text, I can see how you see that (I'm trying to be fair here as I can still see it the other way), but we must take all of the text and let scripture interpret scripture, in which it becomes obvious that since God told Abraham they would be slaves for 400 years, it had to happen just as it happened, so you can't make God passive, in the same way Jesus had to die at the Passover, fulfilling all scripture, at just the right time and everything had to come together, again, God could not be passive or it simply would not work out. Far better to appeal to the mystery of it all than choose a side because each side has scripture text and proof and to be honest, the Calvinist actually have the weight of evidence. God-bless
I was a freewiller when I was first born again. Without finishing the Old and New Testament entirely, I would get into arguments with calvinist all the time. I would get so angry because I couldn't refute them with the scripture I did know or, I'd be destroyed with all the typical free will arguments in my back pocket of who I thought what God can and cannot do...then I read the New Testament from Matthew to Revelation, studying day and night to get enough scripture to debate calvinists again. Then a month later I was a calvinist lol. It's like it's in our nature to want to be in control and be God. I was building my own god based off of pagan traditions and a pagan understanding of freewill. Calvinism will never be defeated.
I was raised in an Arminian household and became Calvinist by reading my Bible. It was so clear to me and my reverence/fear for God was palpable from that moment on. We must not elevate man where he doesn’t belong.
Calvinism has BEEN defeated over and over again but any debate james white in involved in he determines the rules and determines what sources are legit. His doctrine is a joke.
This isn’t a debate Calvinism vs Arminianism. Steve states that right off the bat that he is not an Arminianist. He said he’s neither, he doesn’t believe Calvinism is biblical. The title of this debate is misleading.
No, Steve absolutely did state that he was of an Arminian disposition. He called it a "default position" because if you're not exposed to the ideology of Calvinism, and just by blatantly reading scripture, you would come to the conclusion of Arminianism by default
You can tell you are wrong by how emotional and full of insults you guys, if you had the truth you should just saying. I understand why you can't tolerate.
I grew up Armenian till I was about 24. Then I was molonist for 2 years. Then I started debating people at work and answering questions as best I could using the best apologetics I could learn.... then I read my bible feeling like I truly had little idea that I understood what I was actually saying. I read the whole thing. I could not convince myself that anything but calvanism was the correct theology after reading it.
Excellent point, the path you describe is exactly what happened in my life and most everyone else who i know that are Calvinist/Reformed... Seems when talking in depth with people, we all started out in ignorance and Arminianism sure plays to the human made view of God. What changed? Simple, reading what the Bible actually says without inferring or imputing what i wanted it to say to fit my theology...
@@iamdaniel1263 THIS IS HOW CALVIN PREACHED THE GOSPEL FREE OFFER OF THE GOSPEL (Calvin's Wisdom p119-120) He calls all men to himself, without a single exception, and gives Christ to all, that we may be illumined by him. When we pray, we ought, according to the rule of charity, to include all. God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, BUT THE INGRATITUDE OF THE WORLD IS THE REASON why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few. Other than the result of men’s refusal. Calvin as you can see and put the responsibility by men. Listen I say Preached. It is a Biblical Doctrine that God Choose or elected His Own and not the whole human race. The American Great Awakening was a reformed puritans movement and the doing of the Lord. Millions came to accept Christ our Lord as there Savior. Claiming that the reformation was the work of a deceiver is crossing a dangerous line. [I rather say Reformed, we do not follow a man Calvin was just a small part of the reformation. You cannot find the amount of hateful videos from Calvinist that the Arminius followers Like Leighton flowerts does Edwards's earliest writings brought together John Locke and Isaac Newton in a defence of a religious metaphysics. Later, after a career as a practicing clergyman who led the ‘Great Awakening’, Edwards developed a Calvinist theology founded on the covenant of grace whose centre was the experience of an omnipotent God. His views were most significantly spelt out in Religious Affections (1746) and Freedom of the Will (1754). JONATHAN EDWARDS ON THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. "The Sovereignty of God is the stumbling block on which thousands fall and perish; and if we go contending with God about His sovereignty it will be our eternal ruin. It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God as an absolute sovereign, and the sovereign of our souls; as one who may have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He will" (Jonathan Edwards). The quote above, by Jonathan Edwards, is excerpted from Arminianism: Another Gospel - Jonathan Edwards Most historians consider Jonathan Edwards, a Northampton Anglican minister, one of the chief fathers of the Great Awakening. Edwards’ message centred around the ideas that humans were sinners, God was an angry judge and individuals needed to ask for forgiveness. He also preached justification by faith alone. In 1741, Edwards gave an emotional sermon, entitled “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” No-one in the church had dry eyes. It was not the gifted preacher because Edwards read most of the sermon. It was a strong conviction of the Holy Spirit. News of the message spread quickly throughout the colonies. Edwards was known for his passion. He generally preached in his home parish, unlike other revival preachers who traveled throughout the colonies. Edwards is credited for inspiring hundreds of conversions, which he documented in a book, Narratives of Surprising Conversions. What about 70 Million Buddhists in Thailand. 93% in Thailand are Buddhists and 5.5% Islam. Why??? If God wants all men to be saved, did God fail to bring the gospel there so they could chose to be Christian or Buddhist? One born into Buddhism has no choice but Buddhism, Only the conviction by The Holy Spirit can change hearts.
I love the word, "Clear" and "Clearly" thrown around in these debates. If it was clear we wouldn't be having the debate. There are discrepancies that need to be addressed. Also, the "clear" word implies anyone that holds a different view already has missed it. It's "clear". Settled. Everyone else has already decided and YOU are the one that is on the outside looking in. YOU are the problem because it's already "clear". YOU are making things murky and causing others to stumble if you don't tow the line. It's a debate tactic that to be quite frank is irritating and rather dishonest. It's possible for us as Christians to disagree on how we approach the scriptures but can agree on what the text itself says. So many verses the Calvinist will use to explain his position, the Armenian also uses to explain their position. The issue is how we understand the approach we use to these scriptures.
I agree wholeheartedly. I just got scolded by a new Calvinist that the “debate has been settled” when I told her I had been listening to the different views debated. I’m trying to discover for myself what is true, but being scolded and talked down to puts a wall up.
White does not emphasis believing. The Bible teaches that believing is required to be saved. He sounds very witty and organized, but he thinks a person is saved without faith. He makes no attempt to harmonize his view with the requirement to believe in order to be saved.
James White believes the 1689 london Baptist Confession of faith is a faithful summary of what Scripture teaches. Chapter 11:2 faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness is the alone instrument of justification ; yet it is not alone in the person justified but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith but works by love. Romans 3:28, Galatians 5:6 James 2:17,22,26.
@@bibleblessingsministries2964 just letting you know what we believe concerning justification and faith. "Believe in order to be saved" sounds like you are turning faith into a work
@@chadreddick5528 Tulip calvinistists believe a person cannot believe the gospel unless they are one of the elect. The elect must necessarily first experience regeneration and then consequently they are able to believe. This is the calvinistic ordo solutis. This teaching says that a person is saved without having faith, in contradiction to the scriptures.
Thank you. I was led astray as were our sons. Now they have abandoned the faith. Thanks Arminianism. 😢 teach your children well in the TRUE word of God!
Sadly there are really bad bible teachers, really bad churches, and really bad examples of what it means to be a Christ follower, on both sides of this issue. I am truly sorry about your children and please don't give up on them. God is a redeemer.
Several years ago, I began what turned into a 4.5 years study, verse by verse of scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. By the time I reached Isaiah, I was a Calvinist before I knew what that term even meant. So, to refute Mr. Gregg’s statement, it was scripture that led me to this view, not man’s teaching.
Sorry dude, if Calvinism is true, it means that God creates disposable people, people without any hope,” “It means that God not only allows, but micro-manages and sovereignly ordains, every war and every abortion and every rape of a child. It means that Calvin’s god does not love the world; he hates it because it is full of “totally depraved” individuals having apparently created us that way for his own glorification, or is it for his amusement? If Calvinism is true , it means that if that dying child that you held in your arms was not among the elect, then God did not love her. He never had any intention of loving her. She was nothing to Him. In fact, he would delight and find glory in her eternal torture in hell.” Who are really created in the image of then, God or satan? “And whenever I raise these points with Calvinists, all they can say is that I should be more grateful for my own salvation! It’s like, ‘as long as my eternal destiny is secure, as long as my life is all planned out and taken care of by God, who gives a damn about family, friends or anyone else!’ How can you be okay with that? How can anyone be okay with that? Why do I feel find this heresy morally offensive?” Only the devil should be at ease with such an abomination!
@@Gericho49 romans 9 One of you will say to me:(AI) “Then why does God still blame us?(AJ) For who is able to resist his will?”(AK) 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?(AL) “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,(AM) ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h](AN) 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?(AO) 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience(AP) the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?(AQ) 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory(AR) known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory(AS)- 24 even us, whom he also called,(AT) not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?(AU) 25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i](AV) Read it carefully brother God created objects of wrath but this are called like this after God himself has been mercy upon them. 2 Thessalonians 2 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan(Q) works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders(R) that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.(S) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.(T) 11 For this reason God sends them(U) a powerful delusion(V) so that they will believe the lie(W) 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
All the Calvinist churches I used to attend would do that. Read the Bible verse by verse going through an entire book. All the Freewill churches I attended never did that.
An endlessly fascinating topic for certain, I am currently on Part 4 and very enthralled. It seems to me that both sides have good arguments, but for me it just comes down to my own born again experience. Whenever I look back on it, I can see the wheels in motion for several days before the Holy Spirit rebirthed me. I honestly didn’t even really know what was happening. So I have to conclude for myself at least, that God did it all and it was nothing of my doing - not a “choice” I made or a “decision”. He guided me through every step using circumstances and others and finally achieved His will of granting me salvation. Fast forward to 25 years later and I still find this topic to be a fascinating mystery and I wonder if it can be different for other people. But I know what I believe for myself based on how my personal experience played out.
@@JesusWordApologetics "Dr White wiped the floor with Gregg" By his free will? Or did God decree both Dr White's and Gregg's beliefs, so in a sense God was arguing with himself?
@HillDueceua Synergy: the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects. How is this "an intellectually dishonest manipulation of language." Your being redundant, as this seems like another way of saying "red herring" : something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.. It is not an explanation. Your entire intent it would seem is to insult without having an argument. Both of your statements are mute unless you can defend them. And it would seem that you cant even define what you mean. Let me start you off: It's a red herring because... And please don't say: because it's "an intellectually dishonest manipulation of language." Thanks!
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
@@Mike-qt7jp God determined everything and yet I still belive we have free will. Lets be honest our free will was given to us by God so it was determined by God. Now these passages don't disprove determinism. There is a difference between the sovereign decree of God and a commandment. God never ave a commanded to them to burn their children but God decree that he would alow it to come to pass and then punish them. Lets be honest God can stop anything before it even starts and at times he does and in others he doesn't so whatever his decree is will come to pass. The passage of the Lord not willing that any should perish is about the elect. If God is not willing that any shoul perish in regard to all of mankind then none of mankind would ever perish. Jesus saying broad is the way to destruction and narrow the way to life doesn't disprove determinism. It actually confirms it. First of all it is talking about a reality that was determined by God. God was the one who made Jesus the only way and determined the rewards of life and the punishment of hell. God could have created a world of only his elects but he didn't. God created Nero, Hitler, Haman, Antiochus though he knew what their evil would bring about because God is soverign over everything plus everything has a purpose even the decree of evil Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble..
@johnortiz566 that's why the new covenant was needed because under the old covenants, not all his people were circumcised of heart. Under the new covenant, aka the everlasting covenant, we are circumsized of heart and there for since we are regenerated, we will never apostasy.
If anything happens outside of him he would not be all powerful (sovereign) because there are things done outside of his control and he would be at the mercy of what we do. Blaming God is a common response when life doesn’t go our way. Since God is supposedly in control of everything, the thinking goes, He could have stopped what happened. He could have changed the situation to benefit me; He could have averted the calamity. Since He did not, He is to blame. To help avoid blaming God, we must first understand why heartache and pain are a part of our lives. Sin is at the root of every harsh and evil act. God did not design the human body or soul to live in a sinful world. We were created perfectly to dwell in a perfect world (Genesis 1-2). But the sin of Adam brought devastation and disaster into God’s perfect world. Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, droughts-ultimately, all natural disasters are here because of sin (Genesis 3:17-19). Our own sinful choices create a ripple effect that echoes throughout our lives. And the sin of others affects us as well. Earthly trouble is a reminder that sin has terrible consequences, so, before we blame God for a crisis, we must examine our own lives and be honest about choices that could have led to it. Second, we need to examine our own relationship with God. It is puzzling that many people who never give God a thought while doing their own thing become very religious when disaster strikes. They live for themselves 99 percent of the time, as if there were no God. But then tragedy strikes, and suddenly it is God’s fault. Not only is this irrational, but it is insulting to the Creator, who has already given us everything we need to have a relationship with Him. Of course, having a right relationship with the Lord does not exempt us from suffering terrible heartaches. What do we do when disaster strikes us? Often, Christians are tempted to blame God when the suffering comes. We have a tendency to follow the advice of Job’s wife to her suffering husband: “Curse God and die!” (Job 2:9). Instead of blaming God, Christians can run to Him for comfort (Proverbs 18:10; Psalm 34:18). Christians have a promise that the unbelieving world cannot claim. Romans 8:28 says that “all things work together for the good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.” Some quote this verse and stop after the word good, but that is a misuse of Scripture. God placed two qualifiers after this promise that define its limits: the promise is “to those who love God” and to those “called according to His purpose.” Instead of blaming God, those who love Him can face tragedy with the assurance that nothing can harm them that God did not allow for a good and loving reason. He allows difficult things, even suffering and death, for His own higher purposes. When we desire God’s will for our lives, prioritizing it over our own will, He wastes nothing. No suffering, heartache, loss, or pain is wasted in the lives of God’s own people. He transforms our grief and loss into a platform for future ministry. He uses the difficulties to strengthen us, giving us greater opportunities to store up treasure in heaven than we would have had without the pain (Matthew 6:20). Instead of blaming God, we “give thanks in everything” (Ephesians 5:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:18). We acknowledge that God can intervene in any situation; when He does not intervene, and tragedy ensues, we should stop short of blaming Him for wrongdoing. In all that Job suffered, “he did not sin by charging the Lord with wrongdoing” (Job 1:22). Instead of blaming God, who had allowed such overwhelming loss, Job said, “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). God honored Job’s response and blessed him mightily after he passed the test. God wants to bless us as well with greater understanding, deeper devotion, and eternal reward that can never be taken away. When we are tempted to blame God, we can choose Job’s response and trust that He knows what He is doing (see Psalm 131).
@@kgar5String I disagree with this. God is STILL all powerful with all the humans having free will and being able to make choices….actually this God is more powerful than the one of Calvinists who think God needs puppets to be in control. Even with all the humans with free will God is still able to steer things to their required end and His chosen end. God is perfectly able to do His work in the midst of humanity having free will.
@@keith3362 Man has free will, his free will is subject to the sin nature inherited from Adam, how free is it, the scriptures say we were slaves to sin. You are not as free as you think, why do you sin, you have the freedom to stop? The scriptures, that were inspired by God says none seek after God and you say you are free to choose God. Who’s right the scriptures or you? Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws them.
It's no secret; God loves every person who fears Him: Psalm 34:7 NASB95 *_The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him,_* And rescues them. Psalm 103:13 NASB95 Just as a father has compassion on his children, So *_the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him._* Ecclesiastes 8:12 NASB95 Although a sinner does evil a hundred times and may lengthen his life, still I know that *_it will be well for those who fear God, who fear Him openly._* Revelation 19:5 NASB95 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, *_you who fear Him,_* the small and the great." Luke 23:39-40,43 KJV And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. [40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, *_Dost not thou fear God,_* seeing thou art in the same condemnation? [43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, *_To day shalt thou be with me in paradise._*
Its funny how Steve didnt use one piece of scripture to prove what he believes. It truely is man centered theology as he paints a picture of himself thinking its God. James gave clear rebuttle of how free will and the sovereignty of God works from scripture.
So glad to have escaped Calvinism! 🤢 It’s sick and twists people view of God so much and turns him into a sociopathic abusive monster. Took me so long to heal from the wretched teachings. But I’m free and happy now! Yay! Also, Steve is so well spoken 👏🏻
@@His-Story.ForHisGlory depends on which way you look at "who needs the devil." If you see that phrase in a rhetorical way, as in "the fleeting pleasures of this world," then yes *God of the Bible. But if you read that phrase in a literal sense, as in who needs a malevolent agent who has no true light in him at all and desires mankind to be eternally damned, then *god of calvinism it remains.
Instead of it being a case of either, or; could it be a case where it's BOTH? Either way, I think we are trying to understand GOD, with our human, finite brains....
I used to think that, but no longer do. The death nil to Arminianism is the doctrine of the neutrality of the will. That's what every Arminian argues for, that man can choose to believe or not believe. But the scriptures nowhere teach the neutrality of the will, only that man's will is corrupt and in bondage to sin. Besides the scriptures, the greatest anecdotal evidence of this is that NOT ONE SINGLE MAN out of the billions that have ever existed has chosen to obey God perfectly. Not one! How then could anyone argue that man's will is neutral? If man's will was neutral, then statics would show close to 50% to choose perfect obedience to God, but 0%? It's like if someone flipped a coin. The coin is neutral, it doesn't care if it lands on heads or tails. But if you flipped a coin 10 times and it landed on heads each time, what would you think? How about 100xs or 1,000 xs? How about 15 billion times? At some point your going to think something else is at play that you can't see right? So no, they both can't be right.
@ Todd Cote Scripture teaches God’s sovereignty, AND mans responsibility! Why does it have to be one or the other just cause we can’t understand? God can do anything! 🙏🏻🙌🏻 It’s simple, just be obedient!
@@LJ-gt7vi Just cause we can't understand? I do understand. I'm not in a mystery here. I agree with your first sentence. God is Sovereign and man is responsible, but man is unable to respond. The scriptures are very clear about this. Free will is also a myth. Man has a will, but it is not "free". I would challenge anyone to find one verse to support that man's will is "free". The definition of free will is: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. This is impossible to defend from scripture and from natural law. There are many necessities that constrain our will, therefore it cannot be free.
God bless Dr. James White. Now I believe more in Jesus, as my creator and I recognize his power, and thank God for his love. God is great!. Calvinism has contributed a lot with the gospel and I reject the view of Steve Gregg. Steve is lost.
Gregg claims that his view is NOT “man centered” then he proceeds to claim that man does have a vote that man does play a role in salvation despite there being a multitude of scripture that contradicts his claim. He himself as a man claims that this is not boasting for a man to claim he has a vote lol. He as a man sets the boundaries as to what boasting means. Later at @24:00 and beyond he will make a claim about what a relationship is. He then uses an analogy that is a man interacting with man analogy. The question for Gregg and anyone who would agree his words here is: who defines and sets the boundaries for what love and relationship is? God does. Not man. This is why it is absolutely absurd to use analogies of how mankind interact with other mankind and apply this how God himself interacts with his creation. God defines what love is for us. Every law boundary etc in regards to what is a proper relationship between mankind is set and established by God and we are subject to it. He would not disagree with this either. But when it comes to how God interacts with us he demands that God be subject to the same rules OR he’s unjust. This is just absurd sir.
It easy to say and proving something by isolating text and explaining them by controling and rumbling a verse to formulate on your own Idea ..but if let the Scripture interpret itself by the process of exegesis in the whole set of thoughts you will not invent and make your own idea . because your Idea is the result of what the author intent . and that is authoritative in our life pure Word. not humanly conbined Word Idea.
Hmm, interesting discussion and have to say was excited to hear how Steve Gregg is a knowledge and was going to debate and support Arminianism. First problem and hard to see any true bible believing person... At 8:20 or so he was speaking how Calvinist assert Total Depravity, by then "I don't believe the Bible teaches that...." Ooops, what about: Psalms 14:1) The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2) The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. 4) Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord? Or as i would say in the age old debate, another one bites the dust. EDIT: Listening through this a few times, it seems Dr. White when making or refuting a point he lays out verse upon verse that either support or rejects the point(s) in question. In contrast Mr. Gregg doesn't do this at all from what it seems. He really is coming across as one that has some knowledge of the Bible but not in context or able to "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."
Psa 14 is about Israelites who deny the existence of God. Israelites who were given the oracles of God but yet deny His existence. These have GONE ASIDE. They have BECOME FILTHY. They became this way. They knew God but wouldn’t glorify Him as God. They turned their back on Him. That’s the context of this passage. God bless.
@@evanu6579 Interesting you are presenting a false narrative. Read Psa 14:7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores the fortunes of His people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad. You are presenting a false narrative. You point to scripture that clearly contradicts the point you are making. You are asserting an Arminian view? Consider part of the passage you quoted, perhaps you should read and understand if it first? for your point it should read "When the people turned back to the Lord", but it doesn't it says "When the Lord restored..." Best i can tell you have a smattering of 3 or 4 verses other scattered out of context in order. Even worse you reference saying " They turned their back on Him" closest thing i can find using that phrase is Ps 78:41, or Jer 32:33, neither of which support your point, in fact both are talking about rebelling against God... Hmm interesting thread you are asserting?
@@dand4485 Read your own quote. It literally says “they have turned aside. Together they have become corrupt”. What were they before they became corrupt?
@@evanu6579 The issue isn't about ahy of us are corrupt, if that is your point it is obvious you are out of contact with what is important? We all are corrupt when a couple took a bite from the tree? Rom 5... You look at Psalm 14 and think Israel became corrupt then, again a major disconnect with what he Bible does teach...? I'm seeing a pattern with you understanding or lack there of.
@@dand4485 You gave a passage in this thread to prove a point. I showed how it doesn’t. Why would I start going after points you didn’t make. Do you want me to address another passage? Obviously this one doesn’t prove what you intended.
James White shoots himself in the foot when he reads the palm, 'Yaweh frustrastes the plans of the peoples.' That means that the 'peoples' must have an automous will which Yaweh is frustrating.
Adam and Eve's original sin was scripturally established in Genesis 3 5:7, and in which God in his sovereignty, permitted to occur; to include, the very presence of the serpent in the garden. Mankind's relegated wisdom set into motion free will, which God purposefully shaped the outcome. White's scripture reference stands on its own merits and is consistent with God exercising complete and omnipresent control. Anything less, man creates God in his own image, which by necessity must deny him of his sovereignty. Would God tell us the truth in one scripture and deceive us in another? Trusting faith believes God's word and obeys; unbelief, rejects God's word that initiates free will and result separates mankind from God.
@@itzakehrenberg3449 Yes because permitting does not absolve God of responsibility! You can't complain about God decreeing events and ordering to fulfill his plan, while your view tells us God is omnipotent yet refuses to use that power to change a circumstance such as the killing of 6 million or other horrible crimes. Are you willing to say he didn't interfere because it wasn't his will to stop it? Or are you saying he couldn't if he wanted to? Or perhaps you think he chooses not to interfere will a man's free will? If is the latter, why did he interfere and visit Saul? Or Abraham? or fill John with the Spirit while in the womb?
Genesis 50:20 ESV / 1,539 helpful votes As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Maybe the theology is discussed in a later episode, we shall see. The Arminian position is that one can lose salvation by one's own actions. The Methodist church teaches it, the Church of Christ (Campbellites, just to clarify I'm not talking about World Wide Church of Christ), Disciples, Bretheren (Quakers) and some others. You're saved only as long as you meet the standards. That makes a lot of sense if you believe that you did something to merit salvation in the first place. But, it's not a Biblical soteriology. John 6:34-40 shows that coming to Jesus is of the Father, not of the will of man. And of those who do come, he will not lose on any account. Of those who come, they will also be raised up at the last day. There are none who come and are subsequently lost. There is no room in Jesus's own claims for a falling away and ultimate damnation for those who come to him. But that is what the Arminian position teaches. See The Remonstrance for further details, which propagation was refuted at the Synod of Dort, and from which refutation we get the 5 Points of Calvin, but Calvin himself did not write or devise the 5 Points. I find it interesting also that so many people are willing and eager to take the position of the questioner in Romans 9, those who oppose Paul's exposition of the grace of God. The questioner says it can't be God's will, or God's determination, because God would be guilty (someone on this thread actually does say that). I'd rather be on the Apostle's side than the questioner's.
Not our deeds can make us loose our salvation but our unbeliefe the lord jesus said to peter and the apostles do uyou also want to leave and peter answer where will we go Lord only you have words of eternal life.thats the meaning of losing salvation when you walk away from christ as a choice because He will never toss you aside because u are in a relashionship freely if u have no freedom then there is no love between the two.
"The Arminian position is that one can lose salvation by one's own actions. " This is not the arminian position, this is the biblical position. We must abide in Christ. It is by believing that we may have life in His name... if you stop believing, you have no life. Much of Hebrews was clearly written to warn us to hold fast to the faith. You can't be paying attention and read chapters 3, 6, and 10 without realizing that walking away from the faith is a very real possibility for real believers. "You're saved only as long as you meet the standards. That makes a lot of sense if you believe that you did something to merit salvation in the first place." Sadly, you show here that you don't understand the position at all. God has chosen to save the faithful. We gain access to this grace by our faith (Romans 5:2). The will of the Father is that those who look to the son and believe will have eternal life (John 6:40). The standard that God has chosen for us to meet is to be as righteous as Christ, and luckily for us, He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. When we hear the truth, the gospel of our salvation, and believe in Him, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is when God puts us in Christ, and associates us with His righteousness. It is by faith SO THAT no one can boast, because believing truth is not a work, and especially not a boastworthy work... it is the work that God expects of us, according to John 6. "John 6:34-40 shows that coming to Jesus is of the Father, not of the will of man." Yes, and the will of the Father is that those who look to the son and believe will have eternal life. It's His will that they would be saved. If we stop believing, we are not of the group of those who are marked in Christ, and it's not His will, then, that that person would be saved, though ultimately He does want all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. "There are none who come and are subsequently lost." Of course there are. Scripture warns us to not stray from the faith. "There is no room in Jesus's own claims for a falling away and ultimate damnation for those who come to him." If we believe, and the worries of the world choke out our faith, or our roots are shallow and our faith dies, do we finish the race? Have we come to Him in the end, or were we merely on our way, and then rejected the truth? "so many people are willing and eager to take the position of the questioner in Romans 9, those who oppose Paul's exposition of the grace of God." You don't understand Romans 9 if you think it proves calvinism. Paul is reminding the Jews that who is a part of Israel has never been based on simply physical descent, but on who God says are His people, and the end of the chapter makes it clear, that the gentiles are finding righteousness because they seek it by faith, and not as if it comes by works, as the Jews were doing. The true Israel are the faithful. "I'd rather be on the Apostle's side than the questioner's." I beg you to try and understand a side other than your own, and seek the truth above all else. You are in a dangerous place.
But you're not on the apostles side: paul said to abide, Jesus said to obey, what you have done is twisted and defamed what the teachers actually taught.
I'm always of the belief that God's ways are not so black and white. God works in mysterious ways. Some things I believe He plans, other decisions and life choices are our free will, and I think He tests our faith at times through plans. However, a hardline Calvinist belief leaves little to no meaning to human life, and *belittles us as puppets in God's show. Like we desire to be loved, I believe God desires us to love him of our free will. That is a relationship, and a wilful union entered into like a marriage. Calvinism does not explain why God created man to love Him, as stated in Genesis, nor does it explain why He allowed Adam and Eve to freely choose to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or not to.
While there are some fatalistic Calvinists, the majority believe as R. C. Sproul taught, that all things happen by either God's predestined determinate will, or by His permissive will wherein He permits certain things (both good and evil) to be done. This doesn't mean God couldn't have stopped certain things, it just means he allows them without sanctioning them.
@@JesusWordApologetics If it is true according to johnny kalvin soteriology, I prefer to go to hell for God Glory than heaven as jonny piper admitted regarding his daughter and son. OK
@@peternongbri3569 Give God the glory and his due credit. It is all God working through his creation. We have a "creature" will as humans; ie: we can see and make judgement, based on certain circumstances, but ultimately God is using his creation to bring about his final will according to his power.
Since I never received a reply to my previous post I will tell you the difference between the two. Calvinists believe that the gift of faith is of God. Those that believe the antecedent, believe that faith comes from the created being, not God, therefore robbing Jesus of that glory. But thats not all, by taking a non-Calvinist view, what your saying is by your work you were able to come to Christ. Yet, Romans 11:6 states, But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. So the question becomes does your work nullify grace?
Dozens of biblical quotations wreak total havoc on Calvinist theology. Here are a few: 1. Predetermination for the salvation of some and the damnation of most violates Proverbs 11:1. >> God's character in scripture portrays the unequal balance (scale) as something he hates 2. Predetermination is contradicted by God in Isaiah 1:18, which says: "Come and let us reason together." >> God literally invites a discussion of sins in this passage, a non sequitur if sin (and salvation) are predetermined. 3. The argument that if God reacts to the capricious nature of Man it annuls his sovereign will is a logical fallacy. >> God is free to act, react, enact, or redact. There are no limits to His freedom. 4. Calvinist doctrine reduces God to a collection of supposedly freewill agents who are (in effect) God himself. >> If God is the only actor in creation, then all identities are really him, which is a form of Gnosticism. We need to recognize that Calvinism is nothing more than a total heresy and repudiation of God.
@@shopson6991 Did you know that Calvin had 58 dissenters executed in Geneva for "heresy"? I listen to Scripture, the concepts of double predestination, OSAS could only come from satan trying to give lazy gullible Christians a get-out-of-jail free pass and a very false sense of what happens at the final judgment Matt 16:27 Rev 22:12. Tell me is there a common theme in your translation that if a righteousness person turns from his righteousness and sins he will lose his life? What about the wicked person who turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, will that person live; and not die? What theme is there in Jesus' parables like John 15 about those attached to the TRUE Vine who fall away? Or are all calvinists some god's puppets playing a very callous game.
Here's verses that make absolutely no sense if everything is predetermined before the creation of the world: *Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.* 1 Peter 5:8 *Therefore stay awake-for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning.* Mark 13:35
@@Gericho49 “for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory-” (Romans 9:11-23)
Exactly any debate he’s involved in he determines who wins by requiring certain sources he only accepts. If the audience is unlearned he will manipulate words and talk about books he read that will make his sound legit. But the Bible stands strong and he doesn’t like to stick with the scripture… his education is as good as theory.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". :)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19 .
God defines what sin is and who does it, not you, God said he hardened Pharohs heart, God made the clay, who are you to tell God what to do with his clay?
@Renard Garzaro we are not clay though we are beings that feel pain and suffer. We're not clay that has no breath That's the difference. We're talking many humans going to die the 2nd death hear nit many pots thrown in the bin.
@@lightuntothepeopleministry1245 People are the clay. But the main thing Calvinists all miss is one key word in Jeremiah 18:4 "4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make." Do you see it? The clay was marred in the hand of the potter, aka the clay wouldn't' run in the potter's hands. The potter always wanted to make the clay into a beautiful vessel a beautiful vase, but if the clay won't run in his hands (aka won't cooperate with Him) he will make the clay into a crude pot - which the end is to be burned and thrown into the Valley of Hinnom. It was the clay that wouldn't run in the hands of the potter. Potter always wants to make us a vessel to show his mercy, but if we do not have faith/obey, He will make us into a vessel to show His judgment. God bless, I hope Renard Garzaro gets to read this as well.
@Jus4kiks yeah thanks bro I already see this truth from day 1 was just saying. I believe in predestination as its biblical but you've probably never ever heard how I teach it.i believe the bible. I believe those predestined are those that love God and God foreknow them which is love an intimacy a relationship . It's not God picked and choose some for hell and heaven. It's those that love God
@@lightuntothepeopleministry1245 amen, those In Christ are predestined. Didn’t think you saw Jeremiah the same bc of your initial comment but no worries. God bless.
Question for Dr. White from a biblical light weight. If it’s already done, a finished work, God has decided who will be saved, therefore has decided who will serve him and who will not. He’s decided who will have eternal life with him and who is condemned to hell. OK, Then it doesn’t really matter, right? Why do you fight so hard against false teachers and wrong doctrine since no one, NO ONE, can turn away from the faith or reject God. No one can decide to serve God. If it’s all been decided, chill.
Hi Brother Barry, what you are articulating is called an Equal Ultimacy in Double Predestination. Calvinists believe in an Unequal Ultimacy in Double Predestination. Think of it this way, If God has an elect people then what happens to everyone else? The non-elect are offered salvation through Christ. Ok, what's the difference then? The non-elect seem to fall away over time, they resist the Holy Spirit and fall away by their own will, and not because of God.
@@JesusWordApologetics How is it "not because of God" if it is God who has caused them (to fall away) through His sovereign plan? *Everything* is planned by God, including every action and every choice everyone makes. You can't just change meanings of words. "Because of" refers to the "cause," so it IS because of God that they fall away. Which is why I am not a Calvinist! Thanks.
@@chandac8084 Reading your Comment it came into my mind "These people really think that they deserve something diffrent then eternal punishment in hell and that God most give them anything and more now they are complaining with God because they are in a fallen state and hate God" (and im not a calvinist, i´m searching for the Biblical truth)
@@PracticalBibleStudies good answer. It’s probably the best answer a Calvinist can give, because no other would make sense. I vehemently disagree with Calvinism by the way.
Pastor Gregg, what point would there be for God to predestine those He foresaw would believe to be saved given they were ALREADY going to believe and be saved anyway ... that results in a divine predestination that is redundant and meaningless.
That would only be true if by believing you automatically merit salvation. But nobody is claiming that. He predestined those who would believe to be saved. You can't save yourself by believing, only God can save you. And who does God save? Those who believe in him.
So Steve’s first point that you don’t become Calvinistic unless you are trained to be that way almost as a statement of fact is definitely it true in my case. In fact what I was taught at church was not Calvinistic and the few seminary classes I took were not by any means Calvinistic either. It was when I endeavored to study the word for my self that I began to see these truths. And let me clarify by study I mean I carefully read the New Testament in just over a week and I came away very frustrated as so much of what I had been taught contradicted what I read.
Me too. No one taught me the doctrines of grace. They popped of the pages when I studied for myself, THEN I learned they had a name and a historical presence in the church. For I was getting bothered that I was starting to believe something different then I had ever learned. Meaning, I thought I was the only one to believe such things because no one around me did.
In the Gregg’s opening statement it was funny to hear him talking about the Calvinist view of total depravity and accidentally quoting scripture as he was doing so. Lol you really can’t get around it.
@@Celtics20 HE SURE DID!!! Because John Piper said so. Quote"God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . . Isn't the Calvi-god and the calvi-jesus full of love and caring for all they have made. The gas chambers of Nazi germany was a nice touch! No Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons and the calv-god and calvi-jesus are inventions of the devil who lead the whole world astray! Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts. They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Truth in Love
Matthew 12: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? The Roman Catholic church was the Heresy of Satan: Salvation by Works. So the reformation as Calvin, Luther, John Knox and Zwingly and so many more were used by the Lord against the heresies of the pope. If they, the reformation also came up with a heresy of Satan. How does that lineup with Scripture? Matthew 12:26. Tens of millions died by the hand of the Inquisition. William Tyndale was an English scholar who became a leading figure in the Protestant Reformation in the years leading up to his execution. He is well known for his translation of the Bible into English The Reformation changed Christianity in western Europe. Then the Catholic church must have been the true church. The Devil would not attack his own work. Wait!!! I get it Arminius doctrine is the same as that of the Catholic pope church with a minor difference. Catholic = Men has a freewill Arminius Men has a freewill Catholic = Salvation by good works Arminius: “Salvation by a good decision” Catholic = You can lose your salvation Arminius You can lose your salvation. Catholic = Denies total depravity Arminius Denies total depravity. Catholic = Conditional Redemption Arminius Conditional redemption. Catholic = Christ died for each individual Arminius Christ died for each individual Wow!! the Devil does not have many tricks he always uses the old once. Maybe they work best. The Pope church was from the devil and the reformation was a work from God. It has been a blessing for centuries. Election or Predestination is like a door. Knock and it shall be opened. On the entry site it says: ” Matthew 11: 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. When you have entered trough the door and look back it says: “Give diligence to make your calling and ELECTION sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” election comes in after we are saved. Looking back we will see. It was not me choosing God but God Choosing me. The clear command is to “make your calling and election sure,” A believer’s “election” is God’s selection of him to be saved from before time began. The doctrine of election or predestination is taught in the Bible, too (see Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:4, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 and 2 Timothy 2:10). God is the one who calls and elects, so the believer’s calling and election are already “sure” from God’s side and now become clear to those who belief. Those that deny election do that because they are still gazing at the outside of the door and have never entered through the narrow gate. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leaded unto life, and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT. The false doctrine came from Arminius not from the Reformation [Calvin]. BTW I consider CALVINIST a total misrepresenting. We do not follow a man but the word of Our lord only. Matthew 24: 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they SHALL DECEIVE THE VERY ELECT. WHY DOES IT SAY IF POSSIBLE? BECAUSE IT IS NOT. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Christ did not come for Choosers He came for losers. Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.
“If you simply read the Bible”…in English, without any frame of historical reference, and with all our modern humanist presuppositions… I was raised in an Arminian Charismatic background, but my simple reading of the text of Scripture exposed my inconsistency and forced me to take the Reformed position.
I'm still struggling with every bit of it. Concerning a simple reading by an American, I don't understand how Calvinists get passed John 3:16, specifically, one word; "whosoever."
In your reformed position, your take is man is so totally depraved, so dead the same as Lazarus in the grave, a dead man who can't hear can't respond because he is dead. If that is true then why does God need to harden and blind men if they are so dead and cannot respond? -Romans 11:8 (NASB95): just as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day. Why does God have to give them a spirit of stupor and eyes to see not and ears to hear not when they are a dead like corpse? They are already dead according to the Calvinist view of what spiritual death is, so why blind them? That would be pretty redundant to blind a corpse that already has no ability to see. Another problem with Reformed theology Calvinist which there are many, is the Irresistible grace. If God just automatically spiritually rapes you and causes you to believe regardless of what you want, then why does he use miracles? Why try to convince someone of his existence if he is going to regenerate you whether you believe or not? If regeneration proceeds faith which is contrary to scripture , again why miracles? Calvinism is not biblical my friend. It's a manmade philosophy period.
@@geico1975 The Calvinist like all cults just change the meaning of the words. Where it says "whosoever" they say it means the whosoever of the elect. When it says for God so loved the world, they say it means the world of the elect. They have to add words to the text to fit there horrible false doctrine.
@@geico1975 How do you get past Jesus saying no one can come to him and less the father draws them and followed that with he would lose none of them but raise them up on that day. How do you get past Ephesians 2:8-9. John 3:16 Jesus was referencing Ezekiel 36 that is why he told Nicodemus, you being a teacher of the Law should know this. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. The call of the gospel is universal in the sense that anybody that hears it and believes in it will be saved. 2) Because everyone is dead in trespasses and sin, no one will believe the gospel and respond in faith unless God first makes those who are dead in their trespasses and sins alive (Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that “whosoever believes” will have eternal life and then explains why some believe and some don’t.
James White fails to understand: All the God wills He desires. however.... All that God desires He does not will. Did God Desire that David sin by committing adultery and orchestrating the murder of the husband of his lover? Did God allow it? Yes. There is no scripture to support that all God desires, God wills. Allowing, and willing, are not the same.
Human will is fairly straightforward: when we want something to happen, we “will” for it to take place; when we do something, we have shown our “will” in the matter. God’s will is a little more complex. In fact, theologians see three different aspects of God’s will in the Bible: His sovereign (decretive) will, His revealed (preceptive) will, and His dispositional will. God’s sovereign or decretive will is also called His “hidden” will. It is “sovereign” in that it shows God to be the Sovereign ruler of the universe who ordains all that happens. It is “decretive” because it involves God’s decrees. It is “hidden” because we are usually unaware of this aspect of God’s will until what He has decreed takes place. There is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. For example, it was God’s sovereign will that Joseph be taken to Egypt, languish in Pharaoh’s prison, interpret the king’s dreams, and eventually save his people from famine and be honored by all (Genesis 37-50). At first, Joseph and his brothers were completely ignorant of God’s will in these matters, but, every step along the way, God’s plan was made plainer. When Ephesians 1:11 describes God as the one “who works all things according to the counsel of His will,” it speaks of God’s sovereign or decretive will. God Himself expresses the fact of His sovereign will in Isaiah 46:10: “My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.” Because God is sovereign, His will can never be frustrated. The sovereign or decretive will of God can be divided into His efficacious will and His permissive will. We must do this because God does not directly “cause” everything to happen. Some of His decrees are efficacious (that is, they directly contribute to the fulfillment of God’s desire); others of His decrees are permissive (that is, they allow for an indirect fulfillment of God’s desire). Because God is sovereign, He must at least “permit” all events and happenings. Within God’s sovereign will, He chooses to permit many things to happen that He takes no pleasure in. Again citing the example of Joseph and his brothers, God chose, by an act of decretive will, to allow the kidnapping and enslavement of Joseph. God’s permissive will allowed the sins of Joseph’s brothers in order to bring about a greater good (see Genesis 50:20). At every mistreatment of Joseph, God had the power to intervene, but He “permitted” the evil and, in that limited sense, He sovereignly “willed” it to happen. God’s revealed or preceptive will is not hidden from us. This facet of God’s will includes that which God has chosen to reveal to us in the Bible-His precepts are plainly stated. “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8). The preceptive will of God is what God wants us to do (or not do). For example, we know that it is God’s will that we speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15), repent, and turn to God (Acts 3:19). It is God’s revealed will that we not commit adultery (1 Corinthians 6:18) or get drunk (Ephesians 5:18). God’s revealed will is constantly “making wise the simple” (Psalm 19:7). We are obligated to obey God’s revealed or preceptive will; however, we have the ability to disobey. God’s revealed will for Adam and Eve was to be fruitful and multiply, tend the garden, subdue the earth, and not eat of a certain tree (Genesis 1-2). Unfortunately, they rebelled against God’s revealed will (Genesis 3). The consequences they suffered show that they could not excuse their sin. Neither can we claim that our sin simply fulfills God’s sovereign will, as if that absolves us from guilt. It was God’s will that Jesus suffer and die, but those responsible for His death were still held accountable (Mark 14:21). God’s dispositional will deals with His “attitude”; His will of disposition is what pleases or displeases Him. For example, God “wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). This is an expression of God’s disposition toward the lost-He wants them to be saved (if He did not, then He would not have sent the Savior). Although God’s heart desires all to be saved, not all are saved. So, there is a difference between God’s dispositional will and His sovereign will. In summary, the will of God involves three aspects: 1) God’s sovereign will is revealed in His unchangeable decrees. He decreed that there be light, and there was light (Genesis 1:3)-an example of His efficacious decree. He allowed Satan to torment Job (Job 1:12)-an example of His permissive decree. 2) God’s revealed will is contained in His precepts, given to us in order that we may walk in holiness. We have the ability (but not the right) to break these commands. 3) God’s dispositional will is His attitude. At times, God decrees something that gives Him no pleasure, such as the death of the wicked (see Ezekiel 33:11).
@@kgar5String These " distinctions " of "types," of God's will are irrelevant. The distinction that is relevant at the root of what troubled Augustine was why there was evil. He viewed all earth causalties like famine, destructive storms, plagues, floods, etc as "evil." And caused by God. God's will. And what kind of God does these things, is what troubled Augustine. The gnostics believed in the fate of the gods, the will of the gods, the mercurial nature of the gods.... and saw humans at their mercy, unable to do anything but attempt to appease the gods. For whatever the gods desired they willed and whatever the gods willed, they desired. When these gnostic beliefs are mixed with Christian beliefs.....well....we can see how Calvinism could emerge. A powerful, sovereign God that determines (wills) everything. The confusion is the difference between Will and Desire. Humans have been attempting to determine the attributes of God from the beginning of time, and at the same time reconcile the unpleasant conditions on earth with the character (attributes) of God. It's His fault or its our fault. And as this debate indicates, we continue to hold different opinions on God, His power, authority, will and desire. And as this debate indicates, we have different opinions on the nature of man, his capabilities, his will and desires. And then there are those that believe that the first man created perfect ( righteous) by God, changed in his nature, after the "fall." And those who believe man's nature has never changed, that we have exactly the same nature as that of Adam and Eve. God's nature is the same, throughout time, and human nature is the same throughout time. So the debate is really over WHAT the nature of God is, and what the nature of man is.
@@sheilasmith7779 "The day that you eat of the fruit thou shalt surely die" is the reason Lions eat Zebras, people get sick and die, there are hurricanes and earthquakes, people commit murder etc... it is part of thou shalt surely die. Calvin did not write the gospels, Romans or any other scripture that was inspired by the holy spirit. God is the one who determine what good and evil are, you should not judge God based on human attributes. Who are you to question God? Job 38 38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? 12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? 14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. 15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. 16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? 17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? 18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. 19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? 21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? 22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, 23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth? 25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; 26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; 27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? 28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? 29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? 30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. 31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? 32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? 33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? 34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? 35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are? 36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? 37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven, 38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? 39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions, 40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait? 41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
All I hear is a guy consistently quoting the Bible to defend his position, and a guy appealing to liberal ideology and human philosophy to explain how he feels.
...But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5: 14) Very good. 🙂
You are correct, you have to read the bible asthough you know nothing, you want to get from God's word what he intended for you to get out of it when he put the words in the bible and nothing elese.
Try telling your wife you were ordained to hand with another women. Try telling her a really can't help myself although I am a sinner I am ordained to this. The whole calvinism thing is futile. Every decision I make I make with a clear mind. Nobody makes me do anything I do things because I want to do them. I would throw Calvinism as far away from me as possible. Steve has this one right.
Behold the psychopath. Experience and science proclaim that such a human is INCAPABLE of feeling compassion or distinguishing moral from immoral behavior. All is viewed through the lens of appetite, with or without the addition of intentional cruelty and love of suffering in others. Does the psychopath CHOOSE to be this way? Did Satan choose to be completely evil/sinful?
When I started reading this comment, I started to think, "Is this what the Puritans believed in doing-what caused them to behave the way they did?" I don't think so and as I see it, those are your words, not any Calvinist that I know orheard of. Maybe I am wrong on this but when it comes to these issues, Calvinists out publishes those who disagrees with them. At least it was that way in the beginning (and Calvinism as the reformation was around longer than the Remonstrants and that would be the reason why) while not trying to make a point of difference on who publishes more works, It just becomes-where does Calvinists ever teach this? There are a lot of works downloadble for free about Calvinism (besides Google Books-Monergism has a lot of works downloadable for free.) What am Itrying to conclude? Those are your words and your thinking-not a Calvinists'. Show me where a Calvinist today or in history that made the arguments you say we make.
Where did you read "The glory of God is manifest, when His humans freely choose to love Him by their obedience"? The first thing to take into account regarding the biblical position of libertarian free will is what the Bible says about God. The Bible describes God as sovereign, and sovereignty designates control. But what exactly is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Psalm 24:1 makes it plain: “The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.” What is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Everything. God spoke the universe, and everything in it, into existence. As Creator, He has sovereignty over His creation. This is the image used in Romans 9 when Paul refers to the potter and his clay. So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs: “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” (Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God. Consider another Old Testament passage: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10). Here again we see a sovereign God declaring to us that He will accomplish all His purposes. The concept of libertarian free will leaves open the possibility that man can freely refuse to do God’s will, yet God says all His purposes will be accomplished. Man is not a “law unto himself.” Man is a creature in the Creator’s universe, and as such is subject to the will of the Creator. To suggest otherwise is to elevate man beyond his station and to bring God down to the level of the creature. Those who advocate libertarian free will may not come out and say this, but logically speaking, this is the conclusion that must be drawn. Consider a popular evangelistic slogan found in Christian gospel tracts: “God casts his vote for you, Satan casts his vote against you, but you have the deciding vote.” Is this how it works in salvation? Is God just one side of a cosmic struggle with Satan for the souls of men, who must resort to “campaign tactics” to sway voters to heaven? This view of God is an emasculated God who is desperately hoping mankind utilizes his free will to choose Him. Frankly, this is a somewhat pathetic view of God. If God wills to save someone, that person will be saved because God accomplishes all His purposes. Now, we must be careful not to swing to the (equally) unbiblical view that God is the divine Puppet Master and we are merely His puppets. This is the view of hard determinism in which man is reduced to an automaton making robotic responses to situations. The Bible presents a third option between hard determinism and libertarian free will, and that is the view called compatibilism, or soft determinism. In this view, man makes real choices and will be held responsible by God for those choices. The choices that man makes emanate from his desires. God grants the creature a certain amount of freedom, but that freedom always operates within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty. Now by embracing this view, we must avoid two errors. The first is to posit what is called “middle knowledge.” The doctrine of middle knowledge teaches that God created a world out of the infinite number of worlds He had available to Him to create, and God chose that particular world in which free creatures made the very decisions that accomplished His will. The second error to avoid is to think that God is somehow a cosmic manipulator setting up situations so that His creatures freely make the choices that accomplish His will. There are two keys to understanding human will and how it relates to God’s sovereignty. The first is the fall. Prior to the fall, man could be said to have had a “free” will in that he was free to obey God or disobey God. After the fall, man’s will was corrupted by sin to the point where he fully lost the ability to willingly obey God. This doesn’t mean that man can’t outwardly obey God. Rather, man cannot perform any spiritual good that is acceptable to God or has any salvific merit. The Bible describes man’s will as “dead in transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1) or as “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:17). These phrases describe man as both unable and unwilling to submit to God’s sovereign authority; therefore, when man makes choices according to his desires, we must remember that man’s desires are depraved and corrupted and wholly rebellious toward God. The second key in harmonizing man’s “free” will with God’s sovereignty is how God accomplishes His desires. When God ordains all things that come to pass (Psalm 33:11; Ephesians 1:11), He not only ordains the ends, but the means as well. God ordains that certain things will happen, and He also ordains how they will happen. Human choices are one of the means by which God accomplishes His will. For proof of this point, look no further than the exodus. God tells Moses that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that God’s glory in the deliverance of Israel would be manifest through him (Exodus 4:21). However, as the narrative continues, we see that Pharaoh hardens his own heart (Exodus 8:15). God’s will and man’s will converge. In conclusion, we must try to understand the effort to import libertarian free will into the Scriptures. The reasoning is usually to preserve human autonomy because it is seen as the key to moral responsibility. This is also done to preserve God’s justice. God cannot be seen as just if He would condemn those who cannot choose against their depraved wills. Yet in these attempts to preserve God’s justice and human responsibility, damage is done to the Scriptures. The Bible emphatically affirms human responsibility for sin and God’s justice, but it also clearly rejects libertarian free will. Scripture clearly affirms that 1) God is sovereign over all affairs, including the affairs of man; and 2) man is responsible for his rebellion against a holy God. The fact that we cannot completely harmonize these two biblical truths should not cause us to reject either one. Things seem impossible to us often simply because we do not have the mind of God. It is true that we can’t expect to understand the mind of God perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, although we cannot fully understand all things, our responsibility to God is to believe His Word, to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we fully understand it or not.
God said he is not the author of evil and does not tempt men to sin and in "Jeremiah 19:5 - King James Version (KJV 1900) 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind. So we can go with God or we can go with your interpretation of God which makes him a liar.
Ok right off the bat I can tell Steve is talking like a leftist, "I am taking the position MOST PEOPLE not trained in theology would take" see every one already agrees with him and the debate has not even started, well most of them anyway
I didn’t realize it was a leftist tactic to present facts. I thought leftists don’t like facts and certainly most people don’t agree with leftist ideologies. How exactly is that statement like a leftist? The labeling and name calling you’re doing is similar to a leftist.
You have to read the Bible with presuppositions to become a Calvinist. Time and again the Bible presupposes human choice. Calvinism ignores the myriad of passages that indicate this along with the paradox of a God that holds men responsible while making them incapable to respond. The Calvinist God is not a God who desires that all men be saved while the Bible explicitly says He is. Let God be true and Everyman, to include John Calvin a Liar. Of course God is sovereign, and in His sovereignty He choose to provide Grace to all men if they would deny themselves and turn to Him in faith.
Amen! Calvinism is satanism. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 KJV
Man’s choice doesn’t supersede God’s sovereingty. God has put limits on human choice so that man choose whatever he wants only at the line God has drew
I was raised Arminian. I'm now Calvinist. What led to that over the years was God working in my own life and me realizing how incapable I am of righteousness apart from him. I struggled for years with my salvation, wondering if I was actually saved, was I sincere, did I pray the right prayer. Then there was the Arminian aspect of "you can loose salvation." I've heard that from so many Arminians. If my salvation comes and goes based on my works how is that not spitting on the finished work of Christ? It says his blood only covers so much then needs renewed.
JayReacio- you could at least _attempt_ to understand someone else and their worldview before leveling criticism toward it. Just a thought. You don't have to be a Calvinist. I'm not a Calvinist... but you could at least give a little effort not to straw man someone else's beliefs. It's very bizarre when people appear not to give even _the least bit_ effort to at least try to minimally understand others' viewpoints. If you can't positively state what someone else believes, then you are not yet in a position to critique what they believe. Work first to positively articulate an opponent's viewpoint, THEN you'll be ready to level criticism. Have you ever heard of the idea of "steel manning" someone else's position? It's a healthy exercise. Give it a try sometime.
For you to say that God was disappointed, you said it as if He didn’t know it was going to happen, if mankind doesn’t seek after God what does that mean , the meaning is clear in English and Greek. I learned by waiting for an answer and you’d be wise to do the same . If you don’t have a theological background then you can’t speak on it. Satan has put in the mind of some men that you don’t need Hebrew and Greek or to study theology, but I will tell you something I was in prison for the total 21 years and I learned this though we may read outside the Bible we must trust God to teach us in the scriptures and I did that, when there was a question of something I didn’t understand as I continued to read from the beginning to the end as we ought to,my questions were answered. Humans want part in their coming to salvation, but they can’t according to scripture is abundantly clear “no man comes to Christ unless the Father draws him...” get that straight in your mind and be patient continue to read and God will show you something’s... did it not also say that the Spirit will guide you into truth. Men preach they write down their sermons and sometime put in book form, the only way you know it’s true is you check it by scripture, i.e., if someone knows how to read the word in it’s context or as God illuminates which is context with emphasis, I.e., to live what I am showing you. The Greek and Hebrew is needed along with the good writers of the Holy scripture. What of Jonathan Edwards who it was said merely read the scriptures and people left their pews crying out for salvation, no invitation for God commandeth every man every where to repent Acts 17:30... to be continued...I do want to mention one more thing if you continue to read and meditate you will feel emotions of the Author. Now ask yourself who is the author the writer or the Holy Spirit... ? that’s why we wait on the Lord...
Very true, any person who has spoken to a believer/non believer can see that there is such a diverse background of both kinds of people, so much so that it is proof of this 'unconditional' election, and is ofc proof that we dont just choose to believe in God, something that is also clear once you talk to many theists-atheists.
God is described in the Bible as all-powerful and all-knowing (Psalm 147:5), outside of time (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 90:2), and responsible for the creation of everything (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1). These divine traits set the minimum boundary for God’s sovereign control in the universe, which is to say that nothing in the universe occurs without God’s permission. God has the power and knowledge to prevent anything He chooses to prevent, so anything that does happen must, at the very least, be “allowed” by God.
And thus God is the author of evil - rape, torture, sex with children. Congratulations, you made it to the new age movement where good and evil are mere polarities of God.
According to Calvinism the lost hate God because God first hated them. They won't say it that way, but that's what it boils down to. What an abominable "doctrine".
I think they get that from where the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man-his mind, will, emotions and flesh-have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18). Throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).
@@kgar5String Yes, but God's choice to reprobate people was made "before they had done any good or bad" according to Calvinism. Therefore, none of what you said really matters because of that. You see that right?
@@TrueLifeAdventures Not according to Calvin but according the scriptures that was inspired by the holy spirit, Calvin did not write on scripture. The holy spirit who inspired the scriptures said it like this. Romans 9-11 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) Seem like you don't like who God is.
From what I can tell, Steve Gregg did not destroy James White in a debate here, but rather destroyed the tenets of a false systematic philosophy, namely, Calvinism. After all, James White is not the enemy, but the doctrine of demons is. ☦️🙏🏼😇
@@Heroesbleed But its a good thing that they don't support it with scripture, right? Just like for anti-infant baptism Calvinists it is impossible to support their claims with scripture. Only pro-infant baptism Calvinists make use of the full scripture, as decreed by God.
@@kgar5String Seek to actually understand something other than your position. Right now, you are a fool for rejecting it, simply because you don't understand it. That's obvious from this sentence alone.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 I understand if it’s your decision you can be proud of it if it’s your choice you did something I understand that pretty well. Actually, my position is what Jesus said you can’t have eternal life without it being eternal you can’t be born again and then be unborn. Jesus said he’ll never leave you. How are you gonna leave him if he never leaves you
They deny the idiology of Calvinism because it has many holes and discrepancies that don't line up with the context of Scripture in the simplest general senses. Calvinism has neer been able to stand up against what is called Systematic Theology (using general truths that are blatantly understood in scripture to conclude the truths of other parts of scripture that are not so blatantly understood). Arminianism does that
@Lisa Baird haha. I was the one that first warned you about Calvinism and now I see your comment here many months later. I actually listen to Steve Gregg on the radio and tonight I was going to listen to this debate and saw you left a comment. Small world!
As to Mr White’s last points.. Rom 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom 3:11 - There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. ---- Mat 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. And Romans 8… Rom 8:7 - Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 8:8 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. ---- Heb 11:5 - By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Reconcile -
What needs reconciling? It is the work _of God_ that we believe (Jn 6: 29), Christ, not man, it the author of faith (Heb 12: 2) and faith is part of the gift of salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2: 8). The faith the OT saints had is given by God, not something they produced in themselves that paid for their salvation as if it was a wage earned by their work. You seem to confuse the origin of faith with the exercise of faith.
@@oracleoftroy Wait, I believe in the sovereign grace of God, everything you wrote here I agree with 100%. The faith that we please God with is originated by God himself, "He who BEGAN a good work in you...." and use John 6:29 there, we clearly see it is a sovereign act of God that we believe in the first place. Every one of YOU were dealt a measure of faith, not every man since Adam.
Many Calvinist come across as such narcissists. It's no wonder so many of them look so miserable and joyless. How special for them that they think they're a part of a special club of the "chosen ones," "true Christians," and " the elect" while others, in their opinion, are destined by God to an eternity in Hell without any hope of coming to Jesus and salvation. The irony is that according to their doctrine in the end they might actually be a part of the group in the sovereign will of God who are the ones who aren't ultimately the elect, saved and chosen by God. How on earth do they even know if they're truly saved or not?
How did the Scripture say you would know, Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and don't follow strangers, Jesus said his sheep live right because they love him not as a means to obtain righteousness. His sheep are born of his spirit, what is it to question?
Totally agree they are cold and care not about anyone outside of their elite club. I hate calvinism and what it does to people. As if calvinism was a book in the Bible itself. Nah... Its just some chubby old man who shared his wicked thoughts with the world and those thoughts took off and have a life of their own.
Calvinism is only a thing because of Jacobus Arminius. Hence the name Arminianism which is the belief you have the free will to choose God opposed to God choosing you. I think solo Calvin would be wrong. 
I feel like a lot of the arguments against Calvinism (and even some for it) are assuming that God exists in linear time and experiences dimensionality similar to us. 😬
No, these arguments come from the belief in the goodness of God, where He is not the new age 'oneness' where good and evil are mere polarities of the same being; where pedophilia, sadism and sexual torture are mere ways God choses to express himself. Calvinism is the doctrine of devils. God and Satan are not two in one.
Trouble is, not even remotely all or even the vast majority of calvinist views require or even posit B theory time or divine timelessness. Because calvinist foreknowledge is rooted in the divine decree, no timelessness is required. But depending on how an arminian might model foreknowledge, it may actually require timelessness for God to see the future from the past, because he's seeing the actual event, not determining it.
Gregg clearly is well meaning person, but he's woefully ignorant of Scripture and God's Sovereignty. At 31:23 "he didn't put it in their hearts, he didn't make them have these ideas" Contrast. Acts 2:23 - "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
Calvinism is not determinism as you seem to be implying. I grew up and spent most of my life believing Arminian theology. The Holy Spirit can open the eyes of Gregg to God's sovereignty just as he opened mine.@@danielcartwright8868
@@greganderson5981 With all due respect, you seem to be woefully ignorant of Calvinistic theology. Almost every notable Calvinist scholar believes in exhaustive divine determinism. They may use different words to explain it but most believe it.
How would Steve explain God saying that He loved Jacob and hated ESEA before they were born? Or when God hardened Pharaoh's heart with the 10 plagues, or handing people over to their own delusions? Sincere question....
I don’t know what he would say, but can address some common ways these are addressed. Regarding Romans 9, I can pt think of a way of concisely addressing that, so will skip it, but can return to it if desired. Regarding the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, as I recall five times Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and five times it say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits. Regarding handing a person over to a delusion, that’s because that’s what the person has chosen. That is, the person has chosen to resist, to not repent, so God gives them over to the result of their choice. Romans 1 is a good example of that.
Loved and hated is a Jewish idiom that means chosen and not chosen. Before Esau or Jacob were born God chose to bring about the chosen people of Israel, who were named after Jacob renamed to Israel, and not choosing Esau and the nation of Edom named after him. This had nothing to do with salvation other than that Jesus came from the lineage of Israel rather than Edom. This specifically had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob’s salvations. The second question about Pharaoh can be understood that God chose a wicked man who was already set in his ways to bring about God’s glory and bring freedom for the Jewish people. Pharaoh was not a good man, he was a cruel man of great evil and God hardened him (meaning literally: made his heart firm) in the evil direction he was already set upon to judge him and Egypt, and judging the false God’s of Egypt which each plague went against. Romans 9 is best looked at in its entire context, which generally runs from Romans 9 to Romans 11. The theme is demonstrated to be that God’s promises to Israel have not failed because the promise is that He has chosen to save people based on faith, and not on works or descent. God has total freedom as sovereign to have mercy and hardening as He sees fit. In general Paul summarizes well what he is talking about in Romans 9 in verses 30-33 that say in the NASB Romans 9:30-33 NASB [30] What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; [31] but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. [32] Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, [33] just as it is written,“ BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
Using that passage about Jacob and Esau for soteriology makes it so that God doesn’t send people to hell as punishment for sin but has already decided beforehand that a man will go to hell for no actual reason. No, it’s a quotation of Malachi where the context is of two nations. Paul is using these two national figureheads to demonstrate how God elected Israel for the purpose of bringing about the Messiah
HEB 12:2 says looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith.... HEB 11:6 says But without faith is is impossible to please him; FOR HE THAT COMETH TO GOD MUST BELEIVE THAT HE IS, AND THAT HE IS THE REWARDER OF THEM THAT DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM" . The Bible says here clearly that God gives you first faith and then you come to Him because he open your eyes to see your sin and repent of it. Arminians are wrong on there view of " choose to beleive" Calvenism are right on their view of God gives you the gift of faith.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; I hope that explains how Jesus is the author of our faith. He finishes it when He appears and our faith will be sight. Object of our faith not the source of our faith. God bless.
Hey agente, remember what God said in Jeremiah 18:7-10 Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. See where God leaves room for repentance even after He speaks concerning a nation! That answers your question entirely my friend.
If Calvinism is true, it means that God creates disposable people, people without any hope,” “It means that God not only allows, but micro-manages and sovereignly ordains, every war and every abortion and every rape of a child. It means that Calvin’s god does not love the world; he hates it because it is full of “totally depraved” individuals having apparently created us that way for his own glorification, or is it for his amusement? If Calvinism is true , it means that if that dying child that you held in your arms was not among the elect, then God did not love her. He never had any intention of loving her. She was nothing to Him. In fact, he would delight and find glory in her eternal torture in hell.” Who are really created in the image of then, God or satan? “And whenever I raise these points with Calvinists, all they can say is that I should be more grateful for my own salvation! It’s like, ‘as long as my eternal destiny is secure, as long as my life is all planned out and taken care of by God, who gives a damn about family, friends or anyone else!’ How can you be okay with that? How can anyone be okay with that? Why do I feel find this heresy morally offensive?” Only the devil should be at ease with such an abomination!
None of this is true. God is glorified in both His wrath and grace. To say He never loved people and that He enjoys them being in Hell is not the character of God. God desires all to be saved, but He knows that’s not going to happen. He decreed what will come to pass for His glory. Also, who are we to tell God anything He does is right or wrong. Our fallible brains cannot comprehend God’s power or knowledge. And it is true that you should be grateful for your salvation. What do we do knowing there are some elect and some not? We evangelize to find them. Do not misinterpret Calvinism and then attack the straw man
Let me then ask you a question about a world with free will governed by your autonomous choices. God dare not interfere with your choices because that is His love towards you. But let's think about an instance of prophesying from the Bible. Before his arrest and crucifixion, Jesus told Peter that Peter will deny him thrice before the "rooster crows". Now, what happens here? If Peter with his own free will decided to run to the world with no chickens to crow, or deny Jesus only once or not even once, is Jesus a liar? Please give me a solid answer on this point.
james white believes his theologian schooling is the truth but he learned from the ones who hid the truth. He debated off his own sources and any sources his “theologian” school doesn’t accept apparently are not accepted by the Bible. Even though he doesn’t teach the Bible correctly.
Yes!! Thank you!! How are people okay with this?? It almost turned me away from God altogether (like most of the kids I went to church with!) but thank goodness I found the true God and real Christianity. Now I actually love God from my heart instead of pretending to out of fear!
james white is full of tattoos that’s why he wear long sleeves. He is a different person behind the camera. A legit satanist who fooled his own church.
Note that the unsaved, the rebellious, those who are avowed atheists of which makes up the majority of humankind! Note these are the ones whom God did not call the elect! Now that’s a ponderous position to consider and fits in to exactly the Calvin view. There is the typical example in Judas who betrayed Jesus, the one called the ‘son of perdition’. He was born for the exact task of betraying Jesus. Born as as a son of Hell and ready made, as it were, for to inherit Hell and not for a moment to inherit heaven. God ordained this to be! Like Joseph with His brothers, is not Jesus. A type of Joseph as much as Joseph is a type of Christ. In that Judas meant this for evil but that through the divine decision of God and that through Jesus meant it for Good! One need not even be a Calvinist to recognise this is exactly Calvin’s argument. Born utterly corrupted, God honours Judas’ ‘ own decision’, which God foreknew and went ahead anyway but planned to do so by His own perfect will! So yes, Calvin has it all there. That God ‘wills’ all to be saved, he made hell for the majority of Humanity to spend eternity in now way conflict here with God’s love as it is love to permit humanity have the freedom to not choose God. Indeed without hell there could not be a heaven for there would be no freedom to go there. Similarly, there could not be a a heaven if there was no Hell for exactly the same reason. Follow this up with there being righteousness only because there is the position of unrighteousness. Love, only because there is hate. These should be considered opposites to support the whole theology of Freedom of Choice.
Actually you're right. Reformed understanding did indeed exist prior to Augustine (meticulous providence to be specific). The church was not as polite as modern non-calvinsists are. Orthodoxy had a united voice in condemning it as heresy and I can provide the documentation that proves that very thing.
I was just about to answer you point by point but then I saw the statement that you wrote yesterday, "Steve Gregg hates the God of the bible and denies scripture" proving that any attempt of a rational conversation with you is a waste of time. Out.
This may prove to be a waste of time but I'll give it a try. I would be curious to know what you are talking about. To be specific; what does the Bible clearly say God did that Steve says He "allowed to happen"?
I have indeed listened to the debate. They said a great number of things. That's why I asked for some clarification. That's fine though, I quite frankly did not expect you to answer with anything substantial.
Calvinism's whole argument is that God chooses those who will serve Him, its God's work. Therefore your position would be that you don't trust God to make salvific choices? that's a silly argument.
Is Gregg an open theist? Open Theism is the thesis that because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.
I think Gregg said he doesn't have a problem with it while White says it is heresy. I am having a hard time arguing about God's understanding of the "future" since for Him, the end was declared from the beginning, and also that He is the Alpha and the Omega. It's almost like what we understand as "future" and "past" is not at all the way he experiences it.
Right, If God doesn't realize what we will do in the future, the crucifixion of Christ must have taken Him by surprise, despite the fact that there are hundreds of prophecies pointing to His crucifixion.
9 месяцев назад
@@Rich-vp4ihand despite Jesus himself having said while alive in Galilee that he would be crucified. Luke 24:6-7
TULIP* T: Eph 2 You HE MADE ALIVE who were dead in sins...1 John 5:1 John 1: 13 U: Romans 8 Those whom HE CALLED L: Christ intercedes for the elect and those whom He atoned for (High Priestly work) can't be biblically divided. Hence he is not interceding for each and every person, Hebrews 7, 9 I: Those whom HE called he justified. P: My sheep will never perish
@@kgar5String Correct, Calvinists don’t hear His voice because they aren’t His sheep. Calvinists follow John Calvin and his heretical doctrine, not Jesus. They follow a Jesus who only died for some people and arbitrarily damns some to hell while forcing the elect to follow Him. The god of the Calvinists is not the God of the Bible.
@@keith3362 dualism and semi deism is your theology. Do you know what a personal pronoun is? Who is God patient to? YOU. Who is the YOU Peter is addressing? The epistles weren’t letters written to you. They had a specific audience to whom they were addressing. I mean, you learn this stuff in grade school. Wow.
@@MS33496 Speaking of hearing his voice, It sounds an awful lot like the spirit that inspired it. Ezekiel 36:25-27, I wonder who is doing the talking. John 6:37, are you saying Jesus is preaching a doctrine of devils? Sounds like you don’t hear his voice.
Steve Gregg at time = 6:34: "I personally don't believe that the bible teaches that God ordained certain individuals to be saved" The bible: "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" Acts 13:48. Case closed.
If you want to be sure you believe the truth, you should engage with people's beliefs far better than right there. Acts 13:48 only refutes what he is saying if you take what he is saying in the most uncharitable way possible and have no desire to understand what he actually believes. However, even in that case, you've proved nothing for your side except that you can nitpick how other people speak.
Let's open that case back up: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 Now, I'll count the seconds before someone accuses me of ripping the verse out of context.
@@lordblarg You're reading comprehension skills are weak, it means that whoever has been ordained to ertenal life, those ordained were only done so because they believed, and obviously not everyone is going to believe, so those who did, were ordained, and by how many, it means what ever the amount of people had believed, how many of them that there are, that number is limited, a few.
It really baffles me that Calvinism is a thing. Mathew 5:46 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? NIV Now, God invented the laws of logic and and that tells me that God teaches us and follows the laws himself. So it follows that there would be no reward in creation for God if he was the cause of any choice that man made (I think I would take exception to influence on this matter, meaning that I I think God influences us eg God softens or hardens hearts). I think a strong case could be made for God’s hypocrisy (which we know is not true) if that were true. Why not just make humans and go ahead and put them in heaven, why go through the whole of creation? One last example Genesis 5:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good… Now, this was quoted by James White (whom I highly respect) but it does not follow if Calvinism is true. There would be no separate wills if Calvinism were true. All will would be one and that would be God’s. Why would God differentiate between his will and man’s will if they were not 2 separate and enforceable entities? Why would you even need the Bible? God is completely sovereign, has already chosen who will be saved, directs the will of both save and damned. What purpose does the Bible serve if not to inspire faith and direct the path of the lost? If God is directing my path, why does he need to be a lamp unto my feet; for I could not take a step that he did not direct? Not disrespecting Calvinists, these are just my thoughts.
I pretty much said the exact same thing when I first came upon Calvinism. Thier predestination beliefs Seem to contradict every logical through line I can come up with...... For instance why give us an account of his people in antiquity (their struggles and triumphs and failures) if it can't be used as inspiration & object lessons?? Nobody needs encouragement to stay on a road If your fate is sealed Whether you stay on the road or get off of it
When james white is talking about romans chapter 3 he hits the nail in the head but he does not realize what he is saying when in calvinism they say limited atoment meaning Jesus didn't die for all sinners As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Doxology 33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”[j] 35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”[k] 36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
@@kgar5String you and I were dead in our sins before were we not part of those without hope? and yet christ die also for us but we had to hear the gospel and believe it to be save and keep on believing. Till the end. Paul said of the jews that they were the branches that were torn apart for their lack of faith but if they turn to christ God is powerful to craft them back to their place in christ.
Tom read the O.T scripture that Paul is quoting, and you'll understand Paul's quotes are a warning, NOT an indictment of mankind. Psm 14: 1-3, and Psm 53: 1-3
@@kgar5String No. Jesus died for ALL sin, but for sinners benefit from that sacrificial death to be saved they must accept J.C. as lord and Savior, AND repent.
@@Im_nobody777 it carries a lot of philosophical baggage (which is rooted in gnosticism) with it that affects the way you understand simple terms like grace, election, predestination etc. So it misleads and causes them to impose a definition on these terms that the Bible does not give them. The main problem consequently is that it becomes difficult, or downright impossible, for a devoted and trained calvinist to read scripture without using the lens of TULIP.
@@MrMarkovka11 generalities, give me specifics on election and predestination. How do you believe your view is the correct view, and how Calvinism is wrong. Specifics pls. From the bible pls.
@@MrMarkovka11 wouldn't anyone who is trained in something use that particular lens? What matters is that the "lens," or their position, is internally and externally consistent.
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I was raised in the Baptist church of free will salvation for 33 yrs . I believed what my teachers said about how the Bible teaches salvation. Then at 34 I had a accident that put me in the bed for 6 months and I started to read my Bible without a Sunday school book or another man telling me what it said . I questioned my salvation my whole life because it was my choice but when I read romans and ephesians without a presupposition and God showed me his power unto salvation and have never looked back. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 ESV.
God scourges those he loves. He’ll put you in the hospital to make you realize the truth. He works all things together for those he loves.
You now know what that means. That’s good
Same happened to me
Your background echoes my own. I had never heard exposition of Scripture until I attended a Bible church. The Baptist churches of my youth in the ‘Bible belt’ presented what I call a ‘patchwork quilt of Bible stories’. I never understood the connection between the stories. Not until studying Scripture verse by verse within the context of book/chapter as well as authorship and audience, did I begin to understand His Word. The depravity of mankind was never, to my recollection, presented. “Accepting Jesus” was this good thing one added to whatever goodness one possessed.
What resulted, like you KurtThurmond80, was constant doubt about my salvation. Had I “done it right?” Did I ‘miss a step?’ That’s a miserable way to live.
The Lord showed me in my teen and early adult years just how wicked my heart could be. It was then that I realized that there was nothing I could do to affect my salvation. I couldn’t ‘accept Jesus into my heart.’ Salvation is completely a work of the Lord Almighty, by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ alone, revealed on Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone and not by anything I have done.
Thank God for the buts in the Bible
MLJ
@kurtthurmond80 I like the supporting scripture you provided ".....But to all who did receive him....who believed" Thankfully, we are not coerced or predestined, but allowed the freedom to believe. Thanks to God for creaturely freedom, which by such he will justly judge us.
I'm confused, Are you saying that God opened your eyes to the fact that free will is nonsense?
I was a Calvinist before I knew I was. No one trained me that Calvinism was true until I sought it ought later. I had a friend that died needlessly in his sleep and I turned to scripture and realized how sovereign God really was. For our good, not purposelessly, and with complete control of everything that is ever done. From salvation to the sparrow. He holds all things together and without Him everything would fall apart, from salvation to the sparrow.
Me too.
I had the opposite experience. I was trained arminian until I started reading scripture for myself. One I did that I was convinced by scripture that calvinism is true
So was I.
Same too.
Before, I hate the view of Calvinism.
When I became a Reformed(Calvinist) , I had discovered to my prayer in my notebook ( because I have a habit writing down my prayer) that I am a Calvinist.
True Christian whether he/she is in the kingdom of Arminianism is a Calvinist in their prayer.
Which would include being in control of people sins. That is, if you are consistent.
Faith is a gift of God.
Amen, and all glory to God !!!
Amen
Amen. You can't trust what you don't know, so when a person repents and believes, God shows His character to the person, revealing His character to them, causing faith to take place in them, renewing them, rebirthing them.
Everything good is a gift from God but faith existed long before Jesus died on the cross. Faith in this context is not the gift this text is speaking of but salvation, because faith had been around long before the Church came into existence. What was not around was salvation through Jesus. That's the gift, that we are saved and this salvation comes by believing in Christ. If faith is the gift, then what is eternal life?
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The gift is eternal life. In other words, it's salvation. Scripture interprets Scripture and context is important to understanding as well
At about 7:30 Steve says about depravity "there is nothing we can do" well that's what dead means. I no more chose to be born of God than I did my natural mother. It was God who brought me to Himself. My confession of faith was a testimony of what God had done in me. Ephesians 2 reminds us the faith we have is a gift, even that is not of ourselves. Election produces humility. I did not seek God but in His amazing Love He found me 😔🙄🙌😍
Spiritual death means you’re separated from God and unable to bear the fruit He is looking for. That fruit is love/selflessness.
No one claims that you choose to be born of God. The Gospel is a call to be reconciled to God through faith in Christ. You either accept in faith or reject. If you accept, then God chooses to regenerate you.
Eph 2 is speaking of salvation. Salvation is a gift because it’s by grace through faith and not by works.
To say that it’s faith and that faith is not of works seems really strange.
Very wrong. Death is a seperation of the spirit from the body. In Paul's analogy in Ephesians two he compares unbelievers to a corpse, meaning they do not have the indwelling Spirit. A person receives the Spirit by believing in Christ. Unconditional election is not in the Bible. It is only in the calvinistic textbooks. A person who is dead in sins will either except or reject Christ upon hearing the gospel. Irresistable grace is not in the Bible either. That is the most foolish doctrine I have ever heard. Stephen rebuked the Jews saying they always resisted the Holy Spirit. The bible is full of instances of people who reject grace.
@@bibleblessingsministries2964 The spirit is what causes the belief. The man without it is an enemy of God.
You must be elected to receive the spirit and then believe. Jesus says you don’t believe because you’re not my sheep. Being his sheep is required first for believe. And his sheep will believe. It’s guaranteed. Jesus said so.
You got it right my friend...james white said that but the bible doesn't even as dead people we do plenty of things dead only means separation from God.
you mentioned ephesians 2 and this is what it says. ...read specially 2:2 when it says when you followed the ways of the world
It talks of very active people just on the wrong path. To the jews the lord jesus said if you do not repent
you will die in your sins. A very strong if.
EPHESIANS
2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved.......we were made alive in christ when we believe. God in the old testament said to the jews whom at that time were siinners like the rest of us
I have put life and death before you choose life so yoj can live. For I desire not the death of the sinner.
@@evanu6579 nowhere did you read if you except God he chooses, especially since he said he chose you before the foundation of the world
Everyone who is truly born again has to know that God did something supernatural for the new birth to happen.
They do. That would exclude most of the freewill people
@@aletheia8054 How so?
Is hearing the gospel not sufficient
@@coryalbright9798 Not according to Calvinism it's not. From what some Calvinists have explained to me, you need Irresistible Grace first in order to believe the Gospel. In which case, according to Calvinism, a person is saved *so that they can THEN* believe the Gospel.
Also, "God did something supernatural for the new birth to happen."
No one is arguing against that. The question is, what must one do to be born again? *Believe* . Something that everyone is capable of.
Colossians 2:12 KJVS
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are *risen with him* THROUGH THE FAITH of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Eternal life is a gift that must be received.
Romans 5:17-18 KJVS
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which RECEIVE* abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
*receive is active, here.
Steve is not addressing the scriptures that Dr White presents to make his case. Too many christians dont want to accept the reality, the truth that is revealed in scriptures. It affects our very pride and its too hard to accept. I was one of those, and by the grace of God he humbles me. I have a better appreciation for our Lord and Savior.
Couldn't have said it better. God bless
Very true, humbleness is greatly needed in the eyes of the Lord.
Steve Gregg’s Statement that if you read the Bible you won’t come to the conclusion of Calvinism without first being taught Calvinism is wrong. I was always taught that man had free will to choose salvation and I never heard the Calvinist position but when I read Romans 9 I understood it clear as day.
Branden Levi,
So, you think now that Calvinism is a true bible doctrine? If you do, you are deceived.....
I am not Arminian, but I know that both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong... But Calvinism
is more evil.....
Reynaldo, how do you know that your understanding about "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" are true and that the original commenter's understanding is wrong?
Bullshit
Study the word bro, the context is about Israel for a time read 9 10 and 11, God can and will graft them back in if they believe the message and not continue in there stiff neck rejection of revieled truth, remember Isaiah 53 says who have believed our report, rejectors go into greater darkness, study in context, context oh did I say context
reynaldo david people who reject Calvinism and say they aren’t Arminian are usually inconsistent Arminians without even realizing they are.
Comments aren't allowed on part 5, so I'll leave my comment here, having just finished listened to the whole thing. Good debate. Thanks for sharing.
Let me be honest here. Before I knew that Calvinism and Arminianism existed I thought all Christians were on the same page. When I came to believe, two truths were revealed to me. 1. I did not chose to believe the One True God. He revealed himself to me and revealed that His death in the cross was real and that it was for me. I didn’t come to just believe that. 2. The word sovereign did not ring any understanding until I began to understand the nature of God. He is truly sovereign and controls everything for His glory. I humble myself to say this. My feelings are more comfortable with Arminianism, but scripture and the Holy Spirit leads me to believe truly in the theology of Calvinism.
Brother it is exactly the same situation with me. You put that beautifully.
I’m with you on this. I couldn’t have come to God myself. His will not mine.
Keep reading!
The God of Calvinistic theology sounds like an utter monster !
Even if I actually did believe, I wouldn't want to serve him.
@pghmoore
A couple of thoughts: 1. You did choose to believe the one true God. God can't believe for you, can He? 2. The word sovereign does not mean, God controls everything. It means that He has the right to rule as He pleases. The word does not state or imply how the sovereign chooses to govern.
I think I do understand where you are coming from and am not trying to undermine your experience with God. I would just say that Calvinism is not the right lens to view your salvation experience through.
God knew that you would not come on your own so He sent His Son who The Bible says came to seek and save the lost. When He revealed Himself to you, you believe and were saved. you didn't save yourself all you "did" was to accept the atonement that was freely offered.
God Bless
I'm grateful Steve stated he is not representing Arminianism. He represents a noncalvinist position.
Yeah he is closest to someone like John Miley as far as Arminianism goes. But his view of total depravity is not the same as an Arminian like Matthew Pinson or Roger Olson.
Right off the bat, not "Calvinism vs Arminianism", but rather, "Calvinism vs ANYTHING BUT CALVINISM!!!"
Sounds alot like the scripture, It is God's way or no way.
Arminianism is a offshoot of Calvinism. He is of the Traditionalist position.
@@huntsman528 Jesus(ism), he is the one who he would lose none but raise them up on that day. Jesus sets the tradition, I would say Paul is traditional
@@kgar5String He did lose one that the father had given Him, Judas. Jesusism doesn't take one verse out of context to build a doctrine like Absolute Inability in the same way that the Manicheans did. That is the origin of the interpretation you are referring to. The early church fought against this wrong interpretation of scripture for hundreds of years after the apostles.
The Father only drew certain individuals to His son prior to Jesus's death. After His death we know that it changed from a limited drawing of disciples to drawing of the whole world. You have to keep reading.
John 12:32
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
@@huntsman528 all people, that would be universalism
What I think is an important aspect of "Christianity" is how it spread throughout the world and still does today. The problem with "Total Depravity" is, in general saints/church members/believers have zero responsibility to witness the love of God to others'. How does Christianity spread throughout the world if no one witnessed? Which people do you witness to? Those that God has called, right? How do human believers know who God's called?
We witness for a very simple reason: because God told us to. It is not our decision who accepts it or who God calls to believe. That is in His control. We proclaim the gospel to all who will listen because God says to.
Why else would we proclaim? Because WE have the power to save those who hear? No. It is all in His control. We proclaim for His glory.
I'm so tired of all this. All I know is that jesus is my savior. I believe/accept him. Without Jesus, I'm a dead sinner without hope
How do you know that?
I think people become as Steve said, non Calvinist, via tradition. After you actually start reading 📖 it becomes apparent that the Calvinist view on Gods sovereignty is incredibly accurate
Bull
Well said Reese
@@bernarddevilliers8136 I disagree
Accurate only to james white he will reject and act like a child to a source that doesn’t coincide with his false doctrine claiming that “theologians” don’t accept. Well the “school” of theologians are not accepted by the Bible. What school of theology did Christ go to? 😆
Calvinists believe Regeneration precedes faith. I thought we were filled with the spirit after belief? Nah bro. Calvinism has its problems. Every point of Calvinism can be disproved with a careful, exegetical reading of scripture. Hence why there’s so many warning passages about falling away/conditional security (Jude, John 15, so on and so forth). L and P are the easiest to destroy…But for sake of time I’ll go with U.
Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Sounds totally like Unconditional Election. Just one verse of many, many, many.
Calvinism is Augustinianism. Augustinianism is Manichean Gnosticism repackaged. You will not find the early church fathers holding your views until Augustine…because he was a former Manichean gnostic who apparently had a hard time letting go of their teachings.
I was a Calvinist, and there are many Calvinists who come out of it by reading scripture. Brenda Nickel has a whole book about her experience and why she left for free online. Just google her name and Reformed and it’ll pop up. Leighton Flowers is a former Calvinist.
I’d say look into the systems you believe. People don’t arrive at Calvinism thru reading the Bible carefully. Even Romans 9 isn’t what Calvinists make it out to be. Get a reference Bible, not a study Bible, and look at the references. Also take Romans 9-11 as a whole. It’s about Israel. Romans 11 also discusses Gentiles being grafted in…notice there’s a warning passage about being broken off the olive tree…Romans 9-11 is about Israel and gentiles, and God turning to the Gentiles. Not individuals. Again check the references on Jacob have I loved…it’s a reference to Israel and Edom.
I’m not an Arminian…I couldn’t tell you about the remonstrance or Arminius really, though I clearly see in the Bible that we have wonderful promises of having assurance, and God will keep us, if we continue in the faith, and not depart, or shipwreck. God bless you bro.
YOU meant it for evil, GOD meant it for good. 2 wills at play here. Man’s free will to do evil and God’s sovereign power to turn it for GOOD.
Except it doesn't say "to turn it for good", that is adding to the text. All we know is both parties had their part, but we have other evidence in scripture that shows God does orchestrate what happens like the crucifixion of Christ, which was predestined to happen exactly how, when, and by whom.
I appeal to the mystery of it, I believe man is responsible, yet God is Sovereign, and I have no idea how that works, but that seems to be what scripture teaches, which is why you have good arguments from both camps. God-bless
Read: “But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, TO BRING TO PASS, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”
Genesis 50:20 KJV
God turned it for good is implied in the text.
@@1999dove I don't disagree with this particular text, I can see how you see that (I'm trying to be fair here as I can still see it the other way), but we must take all of the text and let scripture interpret scripture, in which it becomes obvious that since God told Abraham they would be slaves for 400 years, it had to happen just as it happened, so you can't make God passive, in the same way Jesus had to die at the Passover, fulfilling all scripture, at just the right time and everything had to come together, again, God could not be passive or it simply would not work out.
Far better to appeal to the mystery of it all than choose a side because each side has scripture text and proof and to be honest, the Calvinist actually have the weight of evidence. God-bless
The words free will is not in the bible
I was a freewiller when I was first born again. Without finishing the Old and New Testament entirely, I would get into arguments with calvinist all the time. I would get so angry because I couldn't refute them with the scripture I did know or, I'd be destroyed with all the typical free will arguments in my back pocket of who I thought what God can and cannot do...then I read the New Testament from Matthew to Revelation, studying day and night to get enough scripture to debate calvinists again. Then a month later I was a calvinist lol.
It's like it's in our nature to want to be in control and be God. I was building my own god based off of pagan traditions and a pagan understanding of freewill. Calvinism will never be defeated.
once you see the power of God you can't unsee it.
When you reach god through your own pride have you really found him?
@@kendalljones5540 elaborate ... explain what yyou mean?
I was raised in an Arminian household and became Calvinist by reading my Bible. It was so clear to me and my reverence/fear for God was palpable from that moment on. We must not elevate man where he doesn’t belong.
Calvinism has BEEN defeated over and over again but any debate james white in involved in he determines the rules and determines what sources are legit. His doctrine is a joke.
This isn’t a debate Calvinism vs Arminianism. Steve states that right off the bat that he is not an Arminianist. He said he’s neither, he doesn’t believe Calvinism is biblical. The title of this debate is misleading.
No, Steve absolutely did state that he was of an Arminian disposition. He called it a "default position" because if you're not exposed to the ideology of Calvinism, and just by blatantly reading scripture, you would come to the conclusion of Arminianism by default
So many misdirects or fallacies in just the first 2 minutes of White's opening... He is intolerable.
You can tell you are wrong by how emotional and full of insults you guys, if you had the truth you should just saying. I understand why you can't tolerate.
@@kgar5String Whatever you say.
I grew up Armenian till I was about 24. Then I was molonist for 2 years. Then I started debating people at work and answering questions as best I could using the best apologetics I could learn.... then I read my bible feeling like I truly had little idea that I understood what I was actually saying. I read the whole thing. I could not convince myself that anything but calvanism was the correct theology after reading it.
Calvinism = Roman Catholic Pagan worship created by John Calvin in the 1500s when white washing began 🤣 get outta here dude.
@@iamdaniel1263 I said in a post elsewhere. This man is a troll. Equating Roman catholicism with reformed theology... smh.
@@sulfuras1985 troll for those who preach a fake doctrine created by man.
Excellent point, the path you describe is exactly what happened in my life and most everyone else who i know that are Calvinist/Reformed... Seems when talking in depth with people, we all started out in ignorance and Arminianism sure plays to the human made view of God. What changed? Simple, reading what the Bible actually says without inferring or imputing what i wanted it to say to fit my theology...
@@iamdaniel1263 THIS IS HOW CALVIN PREACHED THE GOSPEL
FREE OFFER OF THE GOSPEL (Calvin's Wisdom p119-120)
He calls all men to himself, without a single exception, and gives Christ to all, that we may be illumined by him. When we pray, we ought, according to the rule of charity, to include all. God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, BUT THE INGRATITUDE OF THE WORLD IS THE REASON why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few.
Other than the result of men’s refusal. Calvin as you can see and put the responsibility by men. Listen I say Preached. It is a Biblical Doctrine that God Choose or elected His Own and not the whole human race.
The American Great Awakening was a reformed puritans movement and the doing of the Lord. Millions came to accept Christ our Lord as there Savior. Claiming that the reformation was the work of a deceiver is crossing a dangerous line. [I rather say Reformed, we do not follow a man Calvin was just a small part of the reformation.
You cannot find the amount of hateful videos from Calvinist that the Arminius followers Like Leighton flowerts does
Edwards's earliest writings brought together John Locke and Isaac Newton in a defence of a religious metaphysics. Later, after a career as a practicing clergyman who led the ‘Great Awakening’, Edwards developed a Calvinist theology founded on the covenant of grace whose centre was the experience of an omnipotent God. His views were most significantly spelt out in Religious Affections (1746) and Freedom of the Will (1754).
JONATHAN EDWARDS ON THE
SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.
"The Sovereignty of God is the stumbling block on which thousands fall and perish; and if we go contending with God about His sovereignty it will be our eternal ruin. It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God as an absolute sovereign, and the sovereign of our souls; as one who may have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He will" (Jonathan Edwards).
The quote above, by Jonathan Edwards, is excerpted from Arminianism: Another Gospel - Jonathan Edwards
Most historians consider Jonathan Edwards, a Northampton Anglican minister, one of the chief fathers of the Great Awakening.
Edwards’ message centred around the ideas that humans were sinners, God was an angry judge and individuals needed to ask for forgiveness. He also preached justification by faith alone.
In 1741, Edwards gave an emotional sermon, entitled “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” No-one in the church had dry eyes. It was not the gifted preacher because Edwards read most of the sermon. It was a strong conviction of the Holy Spirit. News of the message spread quickly throughout the colonies.
Edwards was known for his passion. He generally preached in his home parish, unlike other revival preachers who traveled throughout the colonies.
Edwards is credited for inspiring hundreds of conversions, which he documented in a book, Narratives of Surprising Conversions.
What about 70 Million Buddhists in Thailand. 93% in Thailand are Buddhists and 5.5% Islam. Why??? If God wants all men to be saved, did God fail to bring the gospel there so they could chose to be Christian or Buddhist? One born into Buddhism has no choice but Buddhism, Only the conviction by The Holy Spirit can change hearts.
I love the word, "Clear" and "Clearly" thrown around in these debates. If it was clear we wouldn't be having the debate. There are discrepancies that need to be addressed.
Also, the "clear" word implies anyone that holds a different view already has missed it. It's "clear". Settled. Everyone else has already decided and YOU are the one that is on the outside looking in. YOU are the problem because it's already "clear". YOU are making things murky and causing others to stumble if you don't tow the line.
It's a debate tactic that to be quite frank is irritating and rather dishonest. It's possible for us as Christians to disagree on how we approach the scriptures but can agree on what the text itself says. So many verses the Calvinist will use to explain his position, the Armenian also uses to explain their position. The issue is how we understand the approach we use to these scriptures.
Bingo! Well observed.
I agree wholeheartedly. I just got scolded by a new Calvinist that the “debate has been settled” when I told her I had been listening to the different views debated. I’m trying to discover for myself what is true, but being scolded and talked down to puts a wall up.
Just because it is clear does not mean everyone can see it, some people are blind.
White does not emphasis believing. The Bible teaches that believing is required to be saved. He sounds very witty and organized, but he thinks a person is saved without faith. He makes no attempt to harmonize his view with the requirement to believe in order to be saved.
James White believes the 1689 london Baptist Confession of faith is a faithful summary of what Scripture teaches. Chapter 11:2 faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness is the alone instrument of justification ; yet it is not alone in the person justified but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith but works by love. Romans 3:28, Galatians 5:6 James 2:17,22,26.
@@chadreddick5528 Im not a Calvinist. Im a biblicist. I dont read calvinistic theology into the inspired text.
@@bibleblessingsministries2964 just letting you know what we believe concerning justification and faith. "Believe in order to be saved" sounds like you are turning faith into a work
@@chadreddick5528 Tulip calvinistists believe a person cannot believe the gospel unless they are one of the elect. The elect must necessarily first experience regeneration and then consequently they are able to believe. This is the calvinistic ordo solutis. This teaching says that a person is saved without having faith, in contradiction to the scriptures.
But being jesus sheep is what is required for believing
Thank you. I was led astray as were our sons. Now they have abandoned the faith. Thanks Arminianism. 😢 teach your children well in the TRUE word of God!
I don't mean any disrespect, but didn't God sovereignly determine for the Arminians to throw your family into confusion?
Sadly there are really bad bible teachers, really bad churches, and really bad examples of what it means to be a Christ follower, on both sides of this issue. I am truly sorry about your children and please don't give up on them. God is a redeemer.
I would like to see JW debate Roger Olson. That would get the sparks to fly ! And it would be very interesting.
Several years ago, I began what turned into a 4.5 years study, verse by verse of scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. By the time I reached Isaiah, I was a Calvinist before I knew what that term even meant. So, to refute Mr. Gregg’s statement, it was scripture that led me to this view, not man’s teaching.
Sorry dude, if Calvinism is true, it means that God creates disposable people, people without any hope,” “It means that God not only allows, but micro-manages and sovereignly ordains, every war and every abortion and every rape of a child. It means that Calvin’s god does not love the world; he hates it because it is full of “totally depraved” individuals having apparently created us that way for his own glorification, or is it for his amusement? If Calvinism is true , it means that if that dying child that you held in your arms was not among the elect, then God did not love her. He never had any intention of loving her. She was nothing to Him. In fact, he would delight and find glory in her eternal torture in hell.”
Who are really created in the image of then, God or satan?
“And whenever I raise these points with Calvinists, all they can say is that I should be more grateful for my own salvation! It’s like, ‘as long as my eternal destiny is secure, as long as my life is all planned out and taken care of by God, who gives a damn about family, friends or anyone else!’ How can you be okay with that? How can anyone be okay with that? Why do I feel find this heresy morally offensive?” Only the devil should be at ease with such an abomination!
@@Gericho49 Sorry dude but if your god is not Sovereign then he is not God. Rather he is weak and all of prophecy is based upon luck.
@@Gericho49 romans 9
One of you will say to me:(AI) “Then why does God still blame us?(AJ) For who is able to resist his will?”(AK) 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?(AL) “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,(AM) ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h](AN) 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?(AO)
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience(AP) the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?(AQ) 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory(AR) known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory(AS)- 24 even us, whom he also called,(AT) not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?(AU) 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i](AV)
Read it carefully brother God created objects of wrath but this are called like this after God himself has been mercy upon them.
2 Thessalonians 2 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan(Q) works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders(R) that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.(S) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.(T) 11 For this reason God sends them(U) a powerful delusion(V) so that they will believe the lie(W) 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
All the Calvinist churches I used to attend would do that. Read the Bible verse by verse going through an entire book. All the Freewill churches I attended never did that.
An endlessly fascinating topic for certain, I am currently on Part 4 and very enthralled. It seems to me that both sides have good arguments, but for me it just comes down to my own born again experience. Whenever I look back on it, I can see the wheels in motion for several days before the Holy Spirit rebirthed me. I honestly didn’t even really know what was happening. So I have to conclude for myself at least, that God did it all and it was nothing of my doing - not a “choice” I made or a “decision”. He guided me through every step using circumstances and others and finally achieved His will of granting me salvation. Fast forward to 25 years later and I still find this topic to be a fascinating mystery and I wonder if it can be different for other people. But I know what I believe for myself based on how my personal experience played out.
What are the credentials for Gregg? Did he go to seminary somewhere or specialize in a certain field?
I don’t believe Gregg has gone to any seminary but self taught... Dr White wiped the floor with Gregg
@@JesusWordApologetics "Dr White wiped the floor with Gregg"
By his free will? Or did God decree both Dr White's and Gregg's beliefs, so in a sense God was arguing with himself?
@@zzzubrrr Dr white was predestined to whoop steve gregg :-)
@@JesusWordApologetics explain.
Knowing Scripture qualifies anyone. This walk is of Faith not education. God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise
Steve Gregg make his case very good, I am with him
Hey Jose, interested in why do you hold to a synergistic position? this, over a monergistic position? Let me know, really curious. God bless!
@HillDueceua
"Synergy is just another Calvinist red herring."
How is it a red herring?
@HillDueceua
Synergy:
the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.
How is this "an intellectually dishonest manipulation of language."
Your being redundant, as this seems like another way of saying "red herring" :
something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting..
It is not an explanation.
Your entire intent it would seem is to insult without having an argument. Both of your statements are mute unless you can defend them. And it would seem that you cant even define what you mean.
Let me start you off:
It's a red herring because...
And please don't say: because it's "an intellectually dishonest manipulation of language."
Thanks!
Seriously you got to be kidding 🙄
I’m more than half way through this pt.1 and still waiting for Mr. Gregg to cite and exegete even one passage of Scripture in support of his position…
Yeah, exactly.
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
@@Mike-qt7jp God determined everything and yet I still belive we have free will. Lets be honest our free will was given to us by God so it was determined by God. Now these passages don't disprove determinism. There is a difference between the sovereign decree of God and a commandment. God never ave a commanded to them to burn their children but God decree that he would alow it to come to pass and then punish them. Lets be honest God can stop anything before it even starts and at times he does and in others he doesn't so whatever his decree is will come to pass.
The passage of the Lord not willing that any should perish is about the elect. If God is not willing that any shoul perish in regard to all of mankind then none of mankind would ever perish.
Jesus saying broad is the way to destruction and narrow the way to life doesn't disprove determinism. It actually confirms it. First of all it is talking about a reality that was determined by God. God was the one who made Jesus the only way and determined the rewards of life and the punishment of hell. God could have created a world of only his elects but he didn't. God created Nero, Hitler, Haman, Antiochus though he knew what their evil would bring about because God is soverign over everything plus everything has a purpose even the decree of evil
Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble..
@@Calvinist-Premil
Acts 7:50
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
@johnortiz566 that's why the new covenant was needed because under the old covenants, not all his people were circumcised of heart. Under the new covenant, aka the everlasting covenant, we are circumsized of heart and there for since we are regenerated, we will never apostasy.
If Calvinism is true, then what is the point of The Great Commission, 1 John 2:2, Romans 10:9 and especially 1 Timothy 2:3-4?
It guarantees its success 😊
@@sandyndayegamiyentwari700 ?
God uses us as His means to accomplish His ends.
God does not ordain everything, that would be like blaming Him for our sin. NOT!
If anything happens outside of him he would not be all powerful (sovereign) because there are things done outside of his control and he would be at the mercy of what we do.
Blaming God is a common response when life doesn’t go our way. Since God is supposedly in control of everything, the thinking goes, He could have stopped what happened. He could have changed the situation to benefit me; He could have averted the calamity. Since He did not, He is to blame. To help avoid blaming God, we must first understand why heartache and pain are a part of our lives. Sin is at the root of every harsh and evil act. God did not design the human body or soul to live in a sinful world. We were created perfectly to dwell in a perfect world (Genesis 1-2). But the sin of Adam brought devastation and disaster into God’s perfect world. Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, droughts-ultimately, all natural disasters are here because of sin (Genesis 3:17-19). Our own sinful choices create a ripple effect that echoes throughout our lives. And the sin of others affects us as well. Earthly trouble is a reminder that sin has terrible consequences, so, before we blame God for a crisis, we must examine our own lives and be honest about choices that could have led to it.
Second, we need to examine our own relationship with God. It is puzzling that many people who never give God a thought while doing their own thing become very religious when disaster strikes. They live for themselves 99 percent of the time, as if there were no God. But then tragedy strikes, and suddenly it is God’s fault. Not only is this irrational, but it is insulting to the Creator, who has already given us everything we need to have a relationship with Him.
Of course, having a right relationship with the Lord does not exempt us from suffering terrible heartaches. What do we do when disaster strikes us? Often, Christians are tempted to blame God when the suffering comes. We have a tendency to follow the advice of Job’s wife to her suffering husband: “Curse God and die!” (Job 2:9).
Instead of blaming God, Christians can run to Him for comfort (Proverbs 18:10; Psalm 34:18). Christians have a promise that the unbelieving world cannot claim. Romans 8:28 says that “all things work together for the good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.” Some quote this verse and stop after the word good, but that is a misuse of Scripture. God placed two qualifiers after this promise that define its limits: the promise is “to those who love God” and to those “called according to His purpose.”
Instead of blaming God, those who love Him can face tragedy with the assurance that nothing can harm them that God did not allow for a good and loving reason. He allows difficult things, even suffering and death, for His own higher purposes. When we desire God’s will for our lives, prioritizing it over our own will, He wastes nothing. No suffering, heartache, loss, or pain is wasted in the lives of God’s own people. He transforms our grief and loss into a platform for future ministry. He uses the difficulties to strengthen us, giving us greater opportunities to store up treasure in heaven than we would have had without the pain (Matthew 6:20). Instead of blaming God, we “give thanks in everything” (Ephesians 5:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:18).
We acknowledge that God can intervene in any situation; when He does not intervene, and tragedy ensues, we should stop short of blaming Him for wrongdoing. In all that Job suffered, “he did not sin by charging the Lord with wrongdoing” (Job 1:22). Instead of blaming God, who had allowed such overwhelming loss, Job said, “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). God honored Job’s response and blessed him mightily after he passed the test. God wants to bless us as well with greater understanding, deeper devotion, and eternal reward that can never be taken away. When we are tempted to blame God, we can choose Job’s response and trust that He knows what He is doing (see Psalm 131).
@@kgar5String I disagree with this. God is STILL all powerful with all the humans having free will and being able to make choices….actually this God is more powerful than the one of Calvinists who think God needs puppets to be in control. Even with all the humans with free will God is still able to steer things to their required end and His chosen end. God is perfectly able to do His work in the midst of humanity having free will.
@@keith3362 Man has free will, his free will is subject to the sin nature inherited from Adam, how free is it, the scriptures say we were slaves to sin. You are not as free as you think, why do you sin, you have the freedom to stop? The scriptures, that were inspired by God says none seek after God and you say you are free to choose God. Who’s right the scriptures or you? Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws them.
@@kgar5String
You mean to tell me when God told Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit that He actually wanted them to?
@@nesto2851 ran away from that one didnt he?
Good debate
It's no secret; God loves every person who fears Him:
Psalm 34:7 NASB95
*_The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him,_* And rescues them.
Psalm 103:13 NASB95
Just as a father has compassion on his children, So *_the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him._*
Ecclesiastes 8:12 NASB95
Although a sinner does evil a hundred times and may lengthen his life, still I know that *_it will be well for those who fear God, who fear Him openly._*
Revelation 19:5 NASB95
And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, *_you who fear Him,_* the small and the great."
Luke 23:39-40,43 KJV
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, *_Dost not thou fear God,_* seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, *_To day shalt thou be with me in paradise._*
Arminians emphasizing God's love without understanding or acknowledging the scriptures' declaration of men's total depravity is meaningless.
I don’t think any Arminians would disagree with you.
This is why Thomism (Calvin light) or Molinism (Arminianism light)is the better two options.
Its funny how Steve didnt use one piece of scripture to prove what he believes. It truely is man centered theology as he paints a picture of himself thinking its God. James gave clear rebuttle of how free will and the sovereignty of God works from scripture.
So glad to have escaped Calvinism! 🤢 It’s sick and twists people view of God so much and turns him into a sociopathic abusive monster. Took me so long to heal from the wretched teachings. But I’m free and happy now! Yay! Also, Steve is so well spoken 👏🏻
So you've built your own god you're comfortable with? 😞
@@His-Story.ForHisGlory Who needs the devil when you have the god of Calvinism?
@@MrMarkovka11 *God of the bible.
@@His-Story.ForHisGlory depends on which way you look at "who needs the devil." If you see that phrase in a rhetorical way, as in "the fleeting pleasures of this world," then yes *God of the Bible.
But if you read that phrase in a literal sense, as in who needs a malevolent agent who has no true light in him at all and desires mankind to be eternally damned, then *god of calvinism it remains.
@@MrMarkovka11 what?
Instead of it being a case of either, or; could it be a case where it's BOTH?
Either way, I think we are trying to understand GOD, with our human, finite brains....
I think they are both right lol
I used to think that, but no longer do. The death nil to Arminianism is the doctrine of the neutrality of the will. That's what every Arminian argues for, that man can choose to believe or not believe. But the scriptures nowhere teach the neutrality of the will, only that man's will is corrupt and in bondage to sin.
Besides the scriptures, the greatest anecdotal evidence of this is that NOT ONE SINGLE MAN out of the billions that have ever existed has chosen to obey God perfectly. Not one!
How then could anyone argue that man's will is neutral?
If man's will was neutral, then statics would show close to 50% to choose perfect obedience to God, but 0%?
It's like if someone flipped a coin. The coin is neutral, it doesn't care if it lands on heads or tails. But if you flipped a coin 10 times and it landed on heads each time, what would you think? How about 100xs or 1,000 xs? How about 15 billion times? At some point your going to think something else is at play that you can't see right?
So no, they both can't be right.
@@toddcote4904 very interesting…you have given me much to ponder…thank you!
@ Todd Cote
Scripture teaches God’s sovereignty, AND mans responsibility! Why does it have to be one or the other just cause we can’t understand? God can do anything! 🙏🏻🙌🏻 It’s simple, just be obedient!
@@LJ-gt7vi
Just cause we can't understand?
I do understand. I'm not in a mystery here. I agree with your first sentence. God is Sovereign and man is responsible, but man is unable to respond. The scriptures are very clear about this.
Free will is also a myth. Man has a will, but it is not "free". I would challenge anyone to find one verse to support that man's will is "free".
The definition of free will is:
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
This is impossible to defend from scripture and from natural law. There are many necessities that constrain our will, therefore it cannot be free.
God bless Dr. James White. Now I believe more in Jesus, as my creator and I recognize his power, and thank God for his love. God is great!. Calvinism has contributed a lot with the gospel and I reject the view of Steve Gregg. Steve is lost.
only you, white and all other calvinists are lost in the wilderness of denying the power of Christ's Blood.
Gregg claims that his view is NOT “man centered” then he proceeds to claim that man does have a vote that man does play a role in salvation despite there being a multitude of scripture that contradicts his claim. He himself as a man claims that this is not boasting for a man to claim he has a vote lol. He as a man sets the boundaries as to what boasting means. Later at @24:00 and beyond he will make a claim about what a relationship is. He then uses an analogy that is a man interacting with man analogy. The question for Gregg and anyone who would agree his words here is: who defines and sets the boundaries for what love and relationship is? God does. Not man. This is why it is absolutely absurd to use analogies of how mankind interact with other mankind and apply this how God himself interacts with his creation. God defines what love is for us. Every law boundary etc in regards to what is a proper relationship between mankind is set and established by God and we are subject to it. He would not disagree with this either. But when it comes to how God interacts with us he demands that God be subject to the same rules OR he’s unjust. This is just absurd sir.
It easy to say and proving something by isolating text and explaining them by controling and rumbling a verse to formulate on your own Idea ..but if let the Scripture interpret itself by the process of exegesis in the whole set of thoughts you will not invent and make your own idea . because your Idea is the result of what the author intent . and that is authoritative in our life pure Word. not humanly conbined Word Idea.
Hmm, interesting discussion and have to say was excited to hear how Steve Gregg is a knowledge and was going to debate and support Arminianism. First problem and hard to see any true bible believing person... At 8:20 or so he was speaking how Calvinist assert Total Depravity, by then "I don't believe the Bible teaches that...." Ooops, what about:
Psalms 14:1) The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2) The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4) Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
Or as i would say in the age old debate, another one bites the dust.
EDIT: Listening through this a few times, it seems Dr. White when making or refuting a point he lays out verse upon verse that either support or rejects the point(s) in question. In contrast Mr. Gregg doesn't do this at all from what it seems. He really is coming across as one that has some knowledge of the Bible but not in context or able to "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."
Psa 14 is about Israelites who deny the existence of God. Israelites who were given the oracles of God but yet deny His existence.
These have GONE ASIDE. They have BECOME FILTHY. They became this way. They knew God but wouldn’t glorify Him as God. They turned their back on Him.
That’s the context of this passage.
God bless.
@@evanu6579 Interesting you are presenting a false narrative. Read Psa 14:7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores the fortunes of His people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
You are presenting a false narrative. You point to scripture that clearly contradicts the point you are making. You are asserting an Arminian view? Consider part of the passage you quoted, perhaps you should read and understand if it first? for your point it should read "When the people turned back to the Lord", but it doesn't it says "When the Lord restored..." Best i can tell you have a smattering of 3 or 4 verses other scattered out of context in order. Even worse you reference saying " They turned their back on Him" closest thing i can find using that phrase is Ps 78:41, or Jer 32:33, neither of which support your point, in fact both are talking about rebelling against God... Hmm interesting thread you are asserting?
@@dand4485
Read your own quote. It literally says “they have turned aside. Together they have become corrupt”.
What were they before they became corrupt?
@@evanu6579 The issue isn't about ahy of us are corrupt, if that is your point it is obvious you are out of contact with what is important? We all are corrupt when a couple took a bite from the tree? Rom 5... You look at Psalm 14 and think Israel became corrupt then, again a major disconnect with what he Bible does teach...? I'm seeing a pattern with you understanding or lack there of.
@@dand4485
You gave a passage in this thread to prove a point. I showed how it doesn’t.
Why would I start going after points you didn’t make.
Do you want me to address another passage? Obviously this one doesn’t prove what you intended.
James White shoots himself in the foot when he reads the palm, 'Yaweh frustrastes the plans of the peoples.' That means that the 'peoples' must have an automous will which Yaweh is frustrating.
Adam and Eve's original sin was scripturally established in Genesis 3 5:7, and in which God in his sovereignty, permitted to occur; to include, the very presence of the serpent in the garden. Mankind's relegated wisdom set into motion free will, which God purposefully shaped the outcome. White's scripture reference stands on its own merits and is consistent with God exercising complete and omnipresent control. Anything less, man creates God in his own image, which by necessity must deny him of his sovereignty. Would God tell us the truth in one scripture and deceive us in another? Trusting faith believes God's word and obeys; unbelief, rejects God's word that initiates free will and result separates mankind from God.
God didn't "permit" anything to occur in the mind of James White or any Calvinist, God ordained that it must happen.@@fr0103
@@itzakehrenberg3449James White is a compatibilist
Calvinists believe in a compatibilist free will
@@itzakehrenberg3449 Yes because permitting does not absolve God of responsibility! You can't complain about God decreeing events and ordering to fulfill his plan, while your view tells us God is omnipotent yet refuses to use that power to change a circumstance such as the killing of 6 million or other horrible crimes. Are you willing to say he didn't interfere because it wasn't his will to stop it? Or are you saying he couldn't if he wanted to? Or perhaps you think he chooses not to interfere will a man's free will? If is the latter, why did he interfere and visit Saul? Or Abraham? or fill John with the Spirit while in the womb?
Genesis 50:20 ESV / 1,539 helpful votes
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
True. I doubt many babies were cutting their own foreskin on day 8
Maybe the theology is discussed in a later episode, we shall see. The Arminian position is that one can lose salvation by one's own actions. The Methodist church teaches it, the Church of Christ (Campbellites, just to clarify I'm not talking about World Wide Church of Christ), Disciples, Bretheren (Quakers) and some others. You're saved only as long as you meet the standards. That makes a lot of sense if you believe that you did something to merit salvation in the first place. But, it's not a Biblical soteriology. John 6:34-40 shows that coming to Jesus is of the Father, not of the will of man. And of those who do come, he will not lose on any account. Of those who come, they will also be raised up at the last day. There are none who come and are subsequently lost. There is no room in Jesus's own claims for a falling away and ultimate damnation for those who come to him. But that is what the Arminian position teaches. See The Remonstrance for further details, which propagation was refuted at the Synod of Dort, and from which refutation we get the 5 Points of Calvin, but Calvin himself did not write or devise the 5 Points. I find it interesting also that so many people are willing and eager to take the position of the questioner in Romans 9, those who oppose Paul's exposition of the grace of God. The questioner says it can't be God's will, or God's determination, because God would be guilty (someone on this thread actually does say that). I'd rather be on the Apostle's side than the questioner's.
Not our deeds can make us loose our salvation but our unbeliefe the lord jesus said to peter and the apostles do uyou also want to leave and peter answer where will we go Lord only you have words of eternal life.thats the meaning of losing salvation when you walk away from christ as a choice because He will never toss you aside because u are in a relashionship freely if u have no freedom then there is no love between the two.
"The Arminian position is that one can lose salvation by one's own actions. "
This is not the arminian position, this is the biblical position. We must abide in Christ. It is by believing that we may have life in His name... if you stop believing, you have no life. Much of Hebrews was clearly written to warn us to hold fast to the faith. You can't be paying attention and read chapters 3, 6, and 10 without realizing that walking away from the faith is a very real possibility for real believers.
"You're saved only as long as you meet the standards. That makes a lot of sense if you believe that you did something to merit salvation in the first place."
Sadly, you show here that you don't understand the position at all. God has chosen to save the faithful. We gain access to this grace by our faith (Romans 5:2). The will of the Father is that those who look to the son and believe will have eternal life (John 6:40). The standard that God has chosen for us to meet is to be as righteous as Christ, and luckily for us, He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. When we hear the truth, the gospel of our salvation, and believe in Him, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is when God puts us in Christ, and associates us with His righteousness. It is by faith SO THAT no one can boast, because believing truth is not a work, and especially not a boastworthy work... it is the work that God expects of us, according to John 6.
"John 6:34-40 shows that coming to Jesus is of the Father, not of the will of man."
Yes, and the will of the Father is that those who look to the son and believe will have eternal life. It's His will that they would be saved. If we stop believing, we are not of the group of those who are marked in Christ, and it's not His will, then, that that person would be saved, though ultimately He does want all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
"There are none who come and are subsequently lost."
Of course there are. Scripture warns us to not stray from the faith.
"There is no room in Jesus's own claims for a falling away and ultimate damnation for those who come to him."
If we believe, and the worries of the world choke out our faith, or our roots are shallow and our faith dies, do we finish the race? Have we come to Him in the end, or were we merely on our way, and then rejected the truth?
"so many people are willing and eager to take the position of the questioner in Romans 9, those who oppose Paul's exposition of the grace of God."
You don't understand Romans 9 if you think it proves calvinism. Paul is reminding the Jews that who is a part of Israel has never been based on simply physical descent, but on who God says are His people, and the end of the chapter makes it clear, that the gentiles are finding righteousness because they seek it by faith, and not as if it comes by works, as the Jews were doing. The true Israel are the faithful.
"I'd rather be on the Apostle's side than the questioner's."
I beg you to try and understand a side other than your own, and seek the truth above all else. You are in a dangerous place.
But you're not on the apostles side: paul said to abide, Jesus said to obey, what you have done is twisted and defamed what the teachers actually taught.
grabs popcorn*
I like how Gregg said that Arminianism is the default until you are taught theology.
Wasn't mine, people who have no conservative theological training say stupid shit like this.
Arminianism is theology...
@@His-Story.ForHisGlory Yes, bad theology.
@@PracticalBibleStudies indubitably
How does somebody that has been a Christian for 20 years gain that passion for the things of God again and not just do them for the sake of obligation
The comment section of Soteriology 101 sent me here
for what?
@@Im_nobody777 do you understand the expression?
@@everythingisvanityneverthe1834 elaborate please explain ...
@@Im_nobody777 One of the comments on the aforementioned channel mentioned this exchange - so I decided to come and have a look
@@everythingisvanityneverthe1834 Whats your question?
Not only did God sovereignly send Joseph, he sovereignly sent the famine too. Psalm 105:16-17
I'm always of the belief that God's ways are not so black and white. God works in mysterious ways. Some things I believe He plans, other decisions and life choices are our free will, and I think He tests our faith at times through plans. However, a hardline Calvinist belief leaves little to no meaning to human life, and *belittles us as puppets in God's show. Like we desire to be loved, I believe God desires us to love him of our free will. That is a relationship, and a wilful union entered into like a marriage.
Calvinism does not explain why God created man to love Him, as stated in Genesis, nor does it explain why He allowed Adam and Eve to freely choose to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or not to.
While there are some fatalistic Calvinists, the majority believe as R. C. Sproul taught, that all things happen by either God's predestined determinate will, or by His permissive will wherein He permits certain things (both good and evil) to be done. This doesn't mean God couldn't have stopped certain things, it just means he allows them without sanctioning them.
Well done Steve Gregg . We can't stay silent . Error and false teachings of Calvinist/reformed MUST BE EXPOSED
If you're going to make such a claim then please explain how Calvinism is in 'error and [a] false teaching'?
@@JesusWordApologetics If it is true according to johnny kalvin soteriology, I prefer to go to hell for God Glory than heaven as jonny piper admitted regarding his daughter and son. OK
@@peternongbri3569 Give God the glory and his due credit. It is all God working through his creation. We have a "creature" will as humans; ie: we can see and make judgement, based on certain circumstances, but ultimately God is using his creation to bring about his final will according to his power.
Since I never received a reply to my previous post I will tell you the difference between the two. Calvinists believe that the gift of faith is of God. Those that believe the antecedent, believe that faith comes from the created being, not God, therefore robbing Jesus of that glory. But thats not all, by taking a non-Calvinist view, what your saying is by your work you were able to come to Christ. Yet, Romans 11:6 states, But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. So the question becomes does your work nullify grace?
@@peternongbri3569 What? Slow-down and please try and be a little more concise. You're making no sense.
Dozens of biblical quotations wreak total havoc on Calvinist theology. Here are a few:
1. Predetermination for the salvation of some and the damnation of most violates Proverbs 11:1.
>> God's character in scripture portrays the unequal balance (scale) as something he hates
2. Predetermination is contradicted by God in Isaiah 1:18, which says: "Come and let us reason together."
>> God literally invites a discussion of sins in this passage, a non sequitur if sin (and salvation) are predetermined.
3. The argument that if God reacts to the capricious nature of Man it annuls his sovereign will is a logical fallacy.
>> God is free to act, react, enact, or redact. There are no limits to His freedom.
4. Calvinist doctrine reduces God to a collection of supposedly freewill agents who are (in effect) God himself.
>> If God is the only actor in creation, then all identities are really him, which is a form of Gnosticism.
We need to recognize that Calvinism is nothing more than a total heresy and repudiation of God.
Wow, it’s almost like you haven’t even listen to a debate. Yikes.
@@shopson6991 Did you know that Calvin had 58 dissenters executed in Geneva for "heresy"? I listen to Scripture, the concepts of double predestination, OSAS could only come from satan trying to give lazy gullible Christians a get-out-of-jail free pass and a very false sense of what happens at the final judgment Matt 16:27 Rev 22:12. Tell me is there a common theme in your translation that if a righteousness person turns from his righteousness and sins he will lose his life? What about the wicked person who turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, will that person live; and not die? What theme is there in Jesus' parables like John 15 about those attached to the TRUE Vine who fall away? Or are all calvinists some god's puppets playing a very callous game.
Here's verses that make absolutely no sense if everything is predetermined before the creation of the world:
*Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.* 1 Peter 5:8
*Therefore stay awake-for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning.* Mark 13:35
@@Gericho49 “for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory-”
(Romans 9:11-23)
Exactly any debate he’s involved in he determines who wins by requiring certain sources he only accepts. If the audience is unlearned he will manipulate words and talk about books he read that will make his sound legit. But the Bible stands strong and he doesn’t like to stick with the scripture… his education is as good as theory.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
.
Thank you, friend; this is heretical or there is no such thing as heresy!
If God “forced” Jacob’s brothers to sell him into slavery, that means God sinned. Period. End of discussion. He forced man to commit an act of evil
God defines what sin is and who does it, not you, God said he hardened Pharohs heart, God made the clay, who are you to tell God what to do with his clay?
@Renard Garzaro we are not clay though we are beings that feel pain and suffer.
We're not clay that has no breath
That's the difference.
We're talking many humans going to die the 2nd death hear nit many pots thrown in the bin.
@@lightuntothepeopleministry1245 People are the clay. But the main thing Calvinists all miss is one key word in Jeremiah 18:4 "4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make."
Do you see it? The clay was marred in the hand of the potter, aka the clay wouldn't' run in the potter's hands. The potter always wanted to make the clay into a beautiful vessel a beautiful vase, but if the clay won't run in his hands (aka won't cooperate with Him) he will make the clay into a crude pot - which the end is to be burned and thrown into the Valley of Hinnom.
It was the clay that wouldn't run in the hands of the potter. Potter always wants to make us a vessel to show his mercy, but if we do not have faith/obey, He will make us into a vessel to show His judgment.
God bless, I hope Renard Garzaro gets to read this as well.
@Jus4kiks yeah thanks bro I already see this truth from day 1 was just saying.
I believe in predestination as its biblical but you've probably never ever heard how I teach it.i believe the bible.
I believe those predestined are those that love God and God foreknow them which is love an intimacy a relationship .
It's not God picked and choose some for hell and heaven.
It's those that love God
@@lightuntothepeopleministry1245 amen, those In Christ are predestined.
Didn’t think you saw Jeremiah the same bc of your initial comment but no worries.
God bless.
Question for Dr. White from a biblical light weight. If it’s already done, a finished work, God has decided who will be saved, therefore has decided who will serve him and who will not. He’s decided who will have eternal life with him and who is condemned to hell. OK, Then it doesn’t really matter, right? Why do you fight so hard against false teachers and wrong doctrine since no one, NO ONE, can turn away from the faith or reject God. No one can decide to serve God. If it’s all been decided, chill.
Hi Brother Barry, what you are articulating is called an Equal Ultimacy in Double Predestination. Calvinists believe in an Unequal Ultimacy in Double Predestination. Think of it this way, If God has an elect people then what happens to everyone else? The non-elect are offered salvation through Christ. Ok, what's the difference then? The non-elect seem to fall away over time, they resist the Holy Spirit and fall away by their own will, and not because of God.
@@JesusWordApologetics How is it "not because of God" if it is God who has caused them (to fall away) through His sovereign plan? *Everything* is planned by God, including every action and every choice everyone makes. You can't just change meanings of words. "Because of" refers to the "cause," so it IS because of God that they fall away. Which is why I am not a Calvinist! Thanks.
Because we are called to.
@@chandac8084 Reading your Comment it came into my mind "These people really think that they deserve something diffrent then eternal punishment in hell and that God most give them anything and more now they are complaining with God because they are in a fallen state and hate God" (and im not a calvinist, i´m searching for the Biblical truth)
@@PracticalBibleStudies good answer. It’s probably the best answer a Calvinist can give, because no other would make sense. I vehemently disagree with Calvinism by the way.
Pastor Gregg, what point would there be for God to predestine those He foresaw would believe to be saved given they were ALREADY going to believe and be saved anyway ... that results in a divine predestination that is redundant and meaningless.
That would only be true if by believing you automatically merit salvation. But nobody is claiming that. He predestined those who would believe to be saved. You can't save yourself by believing, only God can save you. And who does God save? Those who believe in him.
So Steve’s first point that you don’t become Calvinistic unless you are trained to be that way almost as a statement of fact is definitely it true in my case. In fact what I was taught at church was not Calvinistic and the few seminary classes I took were not by any means Calvinistic either. It was when I endeavored to study the word for my self that I began to see these truths. And let me clarify by study I mean I carefully read the New Testament in just over a week and I came away very frustrated as so much of what I had been taught contradicted what I read.
Me too. No one taught me the doctrines of grace. They popped of the pages when I studied for myself, THEN I learned they had a name and a historical presence in the church. For I was getting bothered that I was starting to believe something different then I had ever learned. Meaning, I thought I was the only one to believe such things because no one around me did.
@@toddcote4904 same.
In the Gregg’s opening statement it was funny to hear him talking about the Calvinist view of total depravity and accidentally quoting scripture as he was doing so. Lol you really can’t get around it.
If a Christian girl is raped, did God predestine that to happen to her?
@@Celtics20 HE SURE DID!!! Because John Piper said so. Quote"God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . .
Isn't the Calvi-god and the calvi-jesus full of love and caring for all they have made. The gas chambers of Nazi germany was a nice touch!
No Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons and the calv-god and calvi-jesus are inventions of the devil who lead the whole world astray!
Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism.
Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism!
Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism!
Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.
They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie!
Truth in Love
Matthew 12: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
The Roman Catholic church was the Heresy of Satan: Salvation by Works.
So the reformation as Calvin, Luther, John Knox and Zwingly and so many more were used by the Lord against the heresies of the pope. If they, the reformation also came up with a heresy of Satan. How does that lineup with Scripture? Matthew 12:26. Tens of millions died by the hand of the Inquisition. William Tyndale was an English scholar who became a leading figure in the Protestant Reformation in the years leading up to his execution. He is well known for his translation of the Bible into English
The Reformation changed Christianity in western Europe. Then the Catholic church must have been the true church. The Devil would not attack his own work.
Wait!!! I get it Arminius doctrine is the same as that of the Catholic pope church with a minor difference.
Catholic = Men has a freewill Arminius Men has a freewill
Catholic = Salvation by good works Arminius: “Salvation by a good decision”
Catholic = You can lose your salvation Arminius You can lose your salvation.
Catholic = Denies total depravity Arminius Denies total depravity.
Catholic = Conditional Redemption Arminius Conditional redemption.
Catholic = Christ died for each individual Arminius Christ died for each individual
Wow!! the Devil does not have many tricks he always uses the old once. Maybe they work best.
The Pope church was from the devil and the reformation was a work from God. It has been a blessing for centuries.
Election or Predestination is like a door. Knock and it shall be opened. On the entry site it says: ” Matthew 11: 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
When you have entered trough the door and look back it says:
“Give diligence to make your calling and ELECTION sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” election comes in after we are saved. Looking back we will see. It was not me choosing God but God Choosing me.
The clear command is to “make your calling and election sure,”
A believer’s “election” is God’s selection of him to be saved from before time began. The doctrine of election or predestination is taught in the Bible, too (see Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:4, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 and 2 Timothy 2:10). God is the one who calls and elects, so the believer’s calling and election are already “sure” from God’s side and now become clear to those who belief.
Those that deny election do that because they are still gazing at the outside of the door and have never entered through the narrow gate.
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leaded unto life, and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.
The false doctrine came from Arminius not from the Reformation [Calvin]. BTW I consider CALVINIST a total misrepresenting. We do not follow a man but the word of Our lord only. Matthew 24: 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they SHALL DECEIVE THE VERY ELECT.
WHY DOES IT SAY IF POSSIBLE? BECAUSE IT IS NOT.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Christ did not come for Choosers He came for losers. Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.
“If you simply read the Bible”…in English, without any frame of historical reference, and with all our modern humanist presuppositions…
I was raised in an Arminian Charismatic background, but my simple reading of the text of Scripture exposed my inconsistency and forced me to take the Reformed position.
I'm still struggling with every bit of it. Concerning a simple reading by an American, I don't understand how Calvinists get passed John 3:16, specifically, one word; "whosoever."
@@geico1975 Jeremiah 19:5 is pretty much insurmountable as well as 1 John 2:2.
In your reformed position, your take is man is so totally depraved, so dead the same as Lazarus in the grave, a dead man who can't hear can't respond because he is dead. If that is true then why does God need to harden and blind men if they are so dead and cannot respond? -Romans 11:8 (NASB95): just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day. Why does God have to give them a spirit of stupor and eyes to see not and ears to hear not when they are a dead like corpse? They are already dead according to the Calvinist view of what spiritual death is, so why blind them? That would be pretty redundant to blind a corpse that already has no ability to see.
Another problem with Reformed theology Calvinist which there are many, is the Irresistible grace. If God just automatically spiritually rapes you and causes you to believe regardless of what you want, then why does he use miracles? Why try to convince someone of his existence if he is going to regenerate you whether you believe or not? If regeneration proceeds faith which is contrary to scripture , again why miracles? Calvinism is not biblical my friend. It's a manmade philosophy period.
@@geico1975 The Calvinist like all cults just change the meaning of the words. Where it says "whosoever" they say it means the whosoever of the elect. When it says for God so loved the world, they say it means the world of the elect. They have to add words to the text to fit there horrible false doctrine.
@@geico1975 How do you get past Jesus saying no one can come to him and less the father draws them and followed that with he would lose none of them but raise them up on that day. How do you get past Ephesians 2:8-9.
John 3:16 Jesus was referencing Ezekiel 36 that is why he told Nicodemus, you being a teacher of the Law should know this.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The call of the gospel is universal in the sense that anybody that hears it and believes in it will be saved. 2) Because everyone is dead in trespasses and sin, no one will believe the gospel and respond in faith unless God first makes those who are dead in their trespasses and sins alive (Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that “whosoever believes” will have eternal life and then explains why some believe and some don’t.
Before I even knew what Calvinism and Arminianism was I was already an Arminian aparently. Lol.
James White fails to understand:
All the God wills He desires.
however....
All that God desires He does not will.
Did God Desire that David sin by committing adultery and orchestrating the murder of the husband of his lover?
Did God allow it? Yes.
There is no scripture to support that all God desires, God wills.
Allowing, and willing, are not the same.
Human will is fairly straightforward: when we want something to happen, we “will” for it to take place; when we do something, we have shown our “will” in the matter. God’s will is a little more complex. In fact, theologians see three different aspects of God’s will in the Bible: His sovereign (decretive) will, His revealed (preceptive) will, and His dispositional will.
God’s sovereign or decretive will is also called His “hidden” will. It is “sovereign” in that it shows God to be the Sovereign ruler of the universe who ordains all that happens. It is “decretive” because it involves God’s decrees. It is “hidden” because we are usually unaware of this aspect of God’s will until what He has decreed takes place. There is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. For example, it was God’s sovereign will that Joseph be taken to Egypt, languish in Pharaoh’s prison, interpret the king’s dreams, and eventually save his people from famine and be honored by all (Genesis 37-50). At first, Joseph and his brothers were completely ignorant of God’s will in these matters, but, every step along the way, God’s plan was made plainer. When Ephesians 1:11 describes God as the one “who works all things according to the counsel of His will,” it speaks of God’s sovereign or decretive will. God Himself expresses the fact of His sovereign will in Isaiah 46:10: “My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.” Because God is sovereign, His will can never be frustrated.
The sovereign or decretive will of God can be divided into His efficacious will and His permissive will. We must do this because God does not directly “cause” everything to happen. Some of His decrees are efficacious (that is, they directly contribute to the fulfillment of God’s desire); others of His decrees are permissive (that is, they allow for an indirect fulfillment of God’s desire). Because God is sovereign, He must at least “permit” all events and happenings. Within God’s sovereign will, He chooses to permit many things to happen that He takes no pleasure in. Again citing the example of Joseph and his brothers, God chose, by an act of decretive will, to allow the kidnapping and enslavement of Joseph. God’s permissive will allowed the sins of Joseph’s brothers in order to bring about a greater good (see Genesis 50:20). At every mistreatment of Joseph, God had the power to intervene, but He “permitted” the evil and, in that limited sense, He sovereignly “willed” it to happen.
God’s revealed or preceptive will is not hidden from us. This facet of God’s will includes that which God has chosen to reveal to us in the Bible-His precepts are plainly stated. “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8). The preceptive will of God is what God wants us to do (or not do). For example, we know that it is God’s will that we speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15), repent, and turn to God (Acts 3:19). It is God’s revealed will that we not commit adultery (1 Corinthians 6:18) or get drunk (Ephesians 5:18). God’s revealed will is constantly “making wise the simple” (Psalm 19:7).
We are obligated to obey God’s revealed or preceptive will; however, we have the ability to disobey. God’s revealed will for Adam and Eve was to be fruitful and multiply, tend the garden, subdue the earth, and not eat of a certain tree (Genesis 1-2). Unfortunately, they rebelled against God’s revealed will (Genesis 3). The consequences they suffered show that they could not excuse their sin. Neither can we claim that our sin simply fulfills God’s sovereign will, as if that absolves us from guilt. It was God’s will that Jesus suffer and die, but those responsible for His death were still held accountable (Mark 14:21).
God’s dispositional will deals with His “attitude”; His will of disposition is what pleases or displeases Him. For example, God “wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). This is an expression of God’s disposition toward the lost-He wants them to be saved (if He did not, then He would not have sent the Savior). Although God’s heart desires all to be saved, not all are saved. So, there is a difference between God’s dispositional will and His sovereign will.
In summary, the will of God involves three aspects: 1) God’s sovereign will is revealed in His unchangeable decrees. He decreed that there be light, and there was light (Genesis 1:3)-an example of His efficacious decree. He allowed Satan to torment Job (Job 1:12)-an example of His permissive decree. 2) God’s revealed will is contained in His precepts, given to us in order that we may walk in holiness. We have the ability (but not the right) to break these commands. 3) God’s dispositional will is His attitude. At times, God decrees something that gives Him no pleasure, such as the death of the wicked (see Ezekiel 33:11).
@@kgar5String
These " distinctions " of "types," of God's will are irrelevant.
The distinction that is relevant at the root of what troubled Augustine was why there was evil.
He viewed all earth causalties like famine, destructive storms, plagues, floods, etc as "evil." And caused by God. God's will.
And what kind of God does these things, is what troubled Augustine.
The gnostics believed in the fate of the gods, the will of the gods, the mercurial nature of the gods....
and saw humans at their mercy, unable to do anything but attempt to appease the gods. For whatever the gods desired they willed and whatever the gods willed, they desired.
When these gnostic beliefs are mixed with Christian beliefs.....well....we can see how Calvinism could emerge.
A powerful, sovereign God that determines (wills) everything.
The confusion is the difference between Will and Desire.
Humans have been attempting to determine the attributes of God from the beginning of time, and at the same time reconcile the unpleasant conditions on earth with the character (attributes) of God. It's His fault or its our fault.
And as this debate indicates, we continue to hold different opinions on God, His power, authority, will and desire.
And as this debate indicates, we have different opinions on the nature of man, his capabilities, his will and desires.
And then there are those that believe that the first man created perfect ( righteous) by God, changed in his nature, after the "fall." And those who believe man's nature has never changed, that we have exactly the same nature as that of Adam and Eve.
God's nature is the same, throughout time, and human nature is the same throughout time.
So the debate is really over WHAT the nature of God is, and what the nature of man is.
@@sheilasmith7779 everything that was created god created evil or good
@@sheilasmith7779 the problem with all that she said is, God said the opposite and people don’t like who he is
@@sheilasmith7779 "The day that you eat of the fruit thou shalt surely die" is the reason Lions eat Zebras, people get sick and die, there are hurricanes and earthquakes, people commit murder etc... it is part of thou shalt surely die.
Calvin did not write the gospels, Romans or any other scripture that was inspired by the holy spirit. God is the one who determine what good and evil are, you should not judge God based on human attributes. Who are you to question God?
Job 38
38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
YWAM? i’ve heard so many bad things about that org
Remember this debate was over 8 years ago, things may have changed.
All I hear is a guy consistently quoting the Bible to defend his position, and a guy appealing to liberal ideology and human philosophy to explain how he feels.
...But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5: 14)
Very good. 🙂
You are correct, you have to read the bible asthough you know nothing, you want to get from God's word what he intended for you to get out of it when he put the words in the bible and nothing elese.
Steve Gregg all the way..Crystal clear teaching. James White is using Calvinism as his Hermeneutics.
@@MultiTacs What ? Good exegesis called Reformed Theology ? Where in the Bible did you find Reformed Theology and or Calvinism ?
Try telling your wife you were ordained to hand with another women. Try telling her a really can't help myself although I am a sinner I am ordained to this. The whole calvinism thing is futile.
Every decision I make I make with a clear mind. Nobody makes me do anything I do things because I want to do them.
I would throw Calvinism as far away from me as possible. Steve has this one right.
Behold the psychopath. Experience and science proclaim that such a human is INCAPABLE of feeling compassion or distinguishing moral from immoral behavior. All is viewed through the lens of appetite, with or without the addition of intentional cruelty and love of suffering in others.
Does the psychopath CHOOSE to be this way? Did Satan choose to be completely evil/sinful?
When I started reading this comment, I started to think, "Is this what the Puritans believed in doing-what caused them to behave the way they did?" I don't think so and as I see it, those are your words, not any Calvinist that I know orheard of. Maybe I am wrong on this but when it comes to these issues, Calvinists out publishes those who disagrees with them. At least it was that way in the beginning (and Calvinism as the reformation was around longer than the Remonstrants and that would be the reason why) while not trying to make a point of difference on who publishes more works, It just becomes-where does Calvinists ever teach this? There are a lot of works downloadble for free about Calvinism (besides Google Books-Monergism has a lot of works downloadable for free.) What am Itrying to conclude? Those are your words and your thinking-not a Calvinists'. Show me where a Calvinist today or in history that made the arguments you say we make.
Where did you read "The glory of God is manifest, when His humans freely choose to love Him by their obedience"?
The first thing to take into account regarding the biblical position of libertarian free will is what the Bible says about God. The Bible describes God as sovereign, and sovereignty designates control. But what exactly is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Psalm 24:1 makes it plain: “The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.” What is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Everything. God spoke the universe, and everything in it, into existence. As Creator, He has sovereignty over His creation. This is the image used in Romans 9 when Paul refers to the potter and his clay.
So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs: “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” (Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.
Consider another Old Testament passage: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10). Here again we see a sovereign God declaring to us that He will accomplish all His purposes. The concept of libertarian free will leaves open the possibility that man can freely refuse to do God’s will, yet God says all His purposes will be accomplished.
Man is not a “law unto himself.” Man is a creature in the Creator’s universe, and as such is subject to the will of the Creator. To suggest otherwise is to elevate man beyond his station and to bring God down to the level of the creature. Those who advocate libertarian free will may not come out and say this, but logically speaking, this is the conclusion that must be drawn. Consider a popular evangelistic slogan found in Christian gospel tracts: “God casts his vote for you, Satan casts his vote against you, but you have the deciding vote.” Is this how it works in salvation? Is God just one side of a cosmic struggle with Satan for the souls of men, who must resort to “campaign tactics” to sway voters to heaven? This view of God is an emasculated God who is desperately hoping mankind utilizes his free will to choose Him. Frankly, this is a somewhat pathetic view of God. If God wills to save someone, that person will be saved because God accomplishes all His purposes.
Now, we must be careful not to swing to the (equally) unbiblical view that God is the divine Puppet Master and we are merely His puppets. This is the view of hard determinism in which man is reduced to an automaton making robotic responses to situations. The Bible presents a third option between hard determinism and libertarian free will, and that is the view called compatibilism, or soft determinism. In this view, man makes real choices and will be held responsible by God for those choices. The choices that man makes emanate from his desires. God grants the creature a certain amount of freedom, but that freedom always operates within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty.
Now by embracing this view, we must avoid two errors. The first is to posit what is called “middle knowledge.” The doctrine of middle knowledge teaches that God created a world out of the infinite number of worlds He had available to Him to create, and God chose that particular world in which free creatures made the very decisions that accomplished His will. The second error to avoid is to think that God is somehow a cosmic manipulator setting up situations so that His creatures freely make the choices that accomplish His will.
There are two keys to understanding human will and how it relates to God’s sovereignty. The first is the fall. Prior to the fall, man could be said to have had a “free” will in that he was free to obey God or disobey God. After the fall, man’s will was corrupted by sin to the point where he fully lost the ability to willingly obey God. This doesn’t mean that man can’t outwardly obey God. Rather, man cannot perform any spiritual good that is acceptable to God or has any salvific merit. The Bible describes man’s will as “dead in transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1) or as “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:17). These phrases describe man as both unable and unwilling to submit to God’s sovereign authority; therefore, when man makes choices according to his desires, we must remember that man’s desires are depraved and corrupted and wholly rebellious toward God.
The second key in harmonizing man’s “free” will with God’s sovereignty is how God accomplishes His desires. When God ordains all things that come to pass (Psalm 33:11; Ephesians 1:11), He not only ordains the ends, but the means as well. God ordains that certain things will happen, and He also ordains how they will happen. Human choices are one of the means by which God accomplishes His will. For proof of this point, look no further than the exodus. God tells Moses that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that God’s glory in the deliverance of Israel would be manifest through him (Exodus 4:21). However, as the narrative continues, we see that Pharaoh hardens his own heart (Exodus 8:15). God’s will and man’s will converge.
In conclusion, we must try to understand the effort to import libertarian free will into the Scriptures. The reasoning is usually to preserve human autonomy because it is seen as the key to moral responsibility. This is also done to preserve God’s justice. God cannot be seen as just if He would condemn those who cannot choose against their depraved wills. Yet in these attempts to preserve God’s justice and human responsibility, damage is done to the Scriptures. The Bible emphatically affirms human responsibility for sin and God’s justice, but it also clearly rejects libertarian free will. Scripture clearly affirms that 1) God is sovereign over all affairs, including the affairs of man; and 2) man is responsible for his rebellion against a holy God. The fact that we cannot completely harmonize these two biblical truths should not cause us to reject either one. Things seem impossible to us often simply because we do not have the mind of God. It is true that we can’t expect to understand the mind of God perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, although we cannot fully understand all things, our responsibility to God is to believe His Word, to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we fully understand it or not.
Wow that's a long comment.
God said he is not the author of evil and does not tempt men to sin and in "Jeremiah 19:5 - King James Version (KJV 1900)
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.
So we can go with God or we can go with your interpretation of God which makes him a liar.
Steve Gregg wins!
Wins what? He started his presentation without stating what his stance
Ok right off the bat I can tell Steve is talking like a leftist, "I am taking the position MOST PEOPLE not trained in theology would take" see every one already agrees with him and the debate has not even started, well most of them anyway
I didn’t realize it was a leftist tactic to present facts. I thought leftists don’t like facts and certainly most people don’t agree with leftist ideologies.
How exactly is that statement like a leftist?
The labeling and name calling you’re doing is similar to a leftist.
You have to read the Bible with presuppositions to become a Calvinist. Time and again the Bible presupposes human choice. Calvinism ignores the myriad of passages that indicate this along with the paradox of a God that holds men responsible while making them incapable to respond. The Calvinist God is not a God who desires that all men be saved while the Bible explicitly says He is. Let God be true and Everyman, to include John Calvin a Liar.
Of course God is sovereign, and in His sovereignty He choose to provide Grace to all men if they would deny themselves and turn to Him in faith.
Amen! Calvinism is satanism.
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
Man’s choice doesn’t supersede God’s sovereingty. God has put limits on human choice so that man choose whatever he wants only at the line God has drew
I was raised Arminian. I'm now Calvinist. What led to that over the years was God working in my own life and me realizing how incapable I am of righteousness apart from him. I struggled for years with my salvation, wondering if I was actually saved, was I sincere, did I pray the right prayer. Then there was the Arminian aspect of "you can loose salvation." I've heard that from so many Arminians. If my salvation comes and goes based on my works how is that not spitting on the finished work of Christ? It says his blood only covers so much then needs renewed.
JayReacio- you could at least _attempt_ to understand someone else and their worldview before leveling criticism toward it. Just a thought. You don't have to be a Calvinist. I'm not a Calvinist... but you could at least give a little effort not to straw man someone else's beliefs.
It's very bizarre when people appear not to give even _the least bit_ effort to at least try to minimally understand others' viewpoints.
If you can't positively state what someone else believes, then you are not yet in a position to critique what they believe. Work first to positively articulate an opponent's viewpoint, THEN you'll be ready to level criticism.
Have you ever heard of the idea of "steel manning" someone else's position? It's a healthy exercise. Give it a try sometime.
For you to say that God was disappointed, you said it as if He didn’t know it was going to happen, if mankind doesn’t seek after God what does that mean , the meaning is clear in English and Greek. I learned by waiting for an answer and you’d be wise to do the same . If you don’t have a theological background then you can’t speak on it. Satan has put in the mind of some men that you don’t need Hebrew and Greek or to study theology, but I will tell you something I was in prison for the total 21 years and I learned this though we may read outside the Bible we must trust God to teach us in the scriptures and I did that, when there was a question of something I didn’t understand as I continued to read from the beginning to the end as we ought to,my questions were answered. Humans want part in their coming to salvation, but they can’t according to scripture is abundantly clear “no man comes to Christ unless the Father draws him...” get that straight in your mind and be patient continue to read and God will show you something’s... did it not also say that the Spirit will guide you into truth. Men preach they write down their sermons and sometime put in book form, the only way you know it’s true is you check it by scripture, i.e., if someone knows how to read the word in it’s context or as God illuminates which is context with emphasis, I.e., to live what I am showing you. The Greek and Hebrew is needed along with the good writers of the Holy scripture. What of Jonathan Edwards who it was said merely read the scriptures and people left their pews crying out for salvation, no invitation for God commandeth every man every where to repent Acts 17:30... to be continued...I do want to mention one more thing if you continue to read and meditate you will feel emotions of the Author. Now ask yourself who is the author the writer or the Holy Spirit... ? that’s why we wait on the Lord...
Very true, any person who has spoken to a believer/non believer can see that there is such a diverse background of both kinds of people, so much so that it is proof of this 'unconditional' election, and is ofc proof that we dont just choose to believe in God, something that is also clear once you talk to many theists-atheists.
Why do Calvinist believe God is not Sovereign outside of Calvanism?
God is described in the Bible as all-powerful and all-knowing (Psalm 147:5), outside of time (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 90:2), and responsible for the creation of everything (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1). These divine traits set the minimum boundary for God’s sovereign control in the universe, which is to say that nothing in the universe occurs without God’s permission. God has the power and knowledge to prevent anything He chooses to prevent, so anything that does happen must, at the very least, be “allowed” by God.
And thus God is the author of evil - rape, torture, sex with children. Congratulations, you made it to the new age movement where good and evil are mere polarities of God.
@@kgar5String You just described Sovereignty. But that doesn't answer my question
According to Calvinism the lost hate God because God first hated them. They won't say it that way, but that's what it boils down to. What an abominable "doctrine".
I think they get that from where the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man-his mind, will, emotions and flesh-have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18). Throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).
@@kgar5String Yes, but God's choice to reprobate people was made "before they had done any good or bad" according to Calvinism. Therefore, none of what you said really matters because of that. You see that right?
@@TrueLifeAdventures He’s God, it’s his clay
@@kgar5String So then you agree that they hate God because he first hated them?
@@TrueLifeAdventures Not according to Calvin but according the scriptures that was inspired by the holy spirit, Calvin did not write on scripture. The holy spirit who inspired the scriptures said it like this.
Romans 9-11
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Seem like you don't like who God is.
From what I can tell, Steve Gregg did not destroy James White in a debate here, but rather destroyed the tenets of a false systematic philosophy, namely, Calvinism. After all, James White is not the enemy, but the doctrine of demons is.
☦️🙏🏼😇
Is it possible for any anti-Calvinist to actually support their claims or opinions with scripture?
No. Tried for 5 years to debate anti-Calvinists to do so ... I just got silly arguments.
@@JesusWordApologetics That’s what the data shows. Thanks.
@@Heroesbleed But its a good thing that they don't support it with scripture, right? Just like for anti-infant baptism Calvinists it is impossible to support their claims with scripture. Only pro-infant baptism Calvinists make use of the full scripture, as decreed by God.
@@zzzubrrr Huh? Where in scripture does it tell us to baptize our infants?
@@Heroesbleed The same place that says we are born guilty for Adam's sin?
calvinism is speaking with fork tung it makes no sence
What you are saying is Jesus makes no sense, that makes sense when you don't hear his voice.
@@kgar5String Calvinism is demonic, not biblical. It twists scripture towards it's own end, just as any cult does.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Not as demonic as trying to take Gods place, you know like Satan did. Works salvation.
@@kgar5String Seek to actually understand something other than your position. Right now, you are a fool for rejecting it, simply because you don't understand it. That's obvious from this sentence alone.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 I understand if it’s your decision you can be proud of it if it’s your choice you did something I understand that pretty well. Actually, my position is what Jesus said you can’t have eternal life without it being eternal you can’t be born again and then be unborn. Jesus said he’ll never leave you. How are you gonna leave him if he never leaves you
It’s unbelievable that people deny Calvinism. They don’t want to submit to God and want some credit and glory.
Yeah it’s believable. All it’s in the world is the lust of the eye the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.
It took many years of me being a free willer and being confronted by scripture. God softened my heart to the truth.
They deny the idiology of Calvinism because it has many holes and discrepancies that don't line up with the context of Scripture in the simplest general senses. Calvinism has neer been able to stand up against what is called Systematic Theology (using general truths that are blatantly understood in scripture to conclude the truths of other parts of scripture that are not so blatantly understood). Arminianism does that
@@TONEScott It definitely has errors but many of their beliefs come from systematic theology.
@Lisa Baird haha. I was the one that first warned you about Calvinism and now I see your comment here many months later. I actually listen to Steve Gregg on the radio and tonight I was going to listen to this debate and saw you left a comment. Small world!
As to Mr White’s last points..
Rom 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 - There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
----
Mat 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
And Romans 8…
Rom 8:7 - Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
----
Heb 11:5 - By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Reconcile -
Well Enoch's faith pleased God, for it is impossible to please God without faith.
What needs reconciling? It is the work _of God_ that we believe (Jn 6: 29), Christ, not man, it the author of faith (Heb 12: 2) and faith is part of the gift of salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2: 8). The faith the OT saints had is given by God, not something they produced in themselves that paid for their salvation as if it was a wage earned by their work. You seem to confuse the origin of faith with the exercise of faith.
@@oracleoftroy Wait, I believe in the sovereign grace of God, everything you wrote here I agree with 100%. The faith that we please God with is originated by God himself, "He who BEGAN a good work in you...." and use John 6:29 there, we clearly see it is a sovereign act of God that we believe in the first place. Every one of YOU were dealt a measure of faith, not every man since Adam.
@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 I was replying to op's post asking for Calvinists to "reconcile" verses that don't conflict on Calvinism.
@@oracleoftroy Free will is a man made concept anyone can see that. The problem is man cannot help but include himself into Gods plan.
Many Calvinist come across as such narcissists. It's no wonder so many of them look so miserable and joyless. How special for them that they think they're a part of a special club of the "chosen ones," "true Christians," and " the elect" while others, in their opinion, are destined by God to an eternity in Hell without any hope of coming to Jesus and salvation. The irony is that according to their doctrine in the end they might actually be a part of the group in the sovereign will of God who are the ones who aren't ultimately the elect, saved and chosen by God. How on earth do they even know if they're truly saved or not?
How did the Scripture say you would know, Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and don't follow strangers, Jesus said his sheep live right because they love him not as a means to obtain righteousness. His sheep are born of his spirit, what is it to question?
Totally agree they are cold and care not about anyone outside of their elite club. I hate calvinism and what it does to people. As if calvinism was a book in the Bible itself. Nah... Its just some chubby old man who shared his wicked thoughts with the world and those thoughts took off and have a life of their own.
@@exysness Protestants hate Catholicism and so they fall pray to a doctrine invented by a roman catholic lawyer. Can't make it up.
A man turns out like his theology; the Calvinist turns out narcissistic, snarky and angry because he wants to look like his Calvinistic god.
Lol says the guy judging with anger and hatred
Steve Gregg is more calvinistic than he thinks he is
How tho.
God says our ways are not His way so how is it we can tell Him what he can do?
Sola Calvin??
Calvinism is only a thing because of Jacobus Arminius. Hence the name Arminianism which is the belief you have the free will to choose God opposed to God choosing you. I think solo Calvin would be wrong. 
Sola free will
I feel like a lot of the arguments against Calvinism (and even some for it) are assuming that God exists in linear time and experiences dimensionality similar to us. 😬
No, these arguments come from the belief in the goodness of God, where He is not the new age 'oneness' where good and evil are mere polarities of the same being; where pedophilia, sadism and sexual torture are mere ways God choses to express himself. Calvinism is the doctrine of devils. God and Satan are not two in one.
Trouble is, not even remotely all or even the vast majority of calvinist views require or even posit B theory time or divine timelessness.
Because calvinist foreknowledge is rooted in the divine decree, no timelessness is required.
But depending on how an arminian might model foreknowledge, it may actually require timelessness for God to see the future from the past, because he's seeing the actual event, not determining it.
But pasting words together like "non-linear time" is really incomprehensible and created just to avoid contradictions.
Gregg clearly is well meaning person, but he's woefully ignorant of Scripture and God's Sovereignty. At 31:23 "he didn't put it in their hearts, he didn't make them have these ideas" Contrast. Acts 2:23 - "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
It is by God's decree rhat Gregg is ignorant, on your wordview, so why even offer the critique?
Calvinism is not determinism as you seem to be implying. I grew up and spent most of my life believing Arminian theology. The Holy Spirit can open the eyes of Gregg to God's sovereignty just as he opened mine.@@danielcartwright8868
@@greganderson5981But does Greg have any control over whether or not the Spirit does so?
@@greganderson5981
Then please go ahead and fully delineate determineism as you see it.
@@greganderson5981
With all due respect, you seem to be woefully ignorant of Calvinistic theology. Almost every notable Calvinist scholar believes in exhaustive divine determinism. They may use different words to explain it but most believe it.
How would Steve explain God saying that He loved Jacob and hated ESEA before they were born? Or when God hardened Pharaoh's heart with the 10 plagues, or handing people over to their own delusions? Sincere question....
I don’t know what he would say, but can address some common ways these are addressed. Regarding Romans 9, I can pt think of a way of concisely addressing that, so will skip it, but can return to it if desired. Regarding the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, as I recall five times Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and five times it say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits. Regarding handing a person over to a delusion, that’s because that’s what the person has chosen. That is, the person has chosen to resist, to not repent, so God gives them over to the result of their choice. Romans 1 is a good example of that.
@@ewallt thank you 😀
Loved and hated is a Jewish idiom that means chosen and not chosen. Before Esau or Jacob were born God chose to bring about the chosen people of Israel, who were named after Jacob renamed to Israel, and not choosing Esau and the nation of Edom named after him. This had nothing to do with salvation other than that Jesus came from the lineage of Israel rather than Edom. This specifically had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob’s salvations.
The second question about Pharaoh can be understood that God chose a wicked man who was already set in his ways to bring about God’s glory and bring freedom for the Jewish people. Pharaoh was not a good man, he was a cruel man of great evil and God hardened him (meaning literally: made his heart firm) in the evil direction he was already set upon to judge him and Egypt, and judging the false God’s of Egypt which each plague went against.
Romans 9 is best looked at in its entire context, which generally runs from Romans 9 to Romans 11. The theme is demonstrated to be that God’s promises to Israel have not failed because the promise is that He has chosen to save people based on faith, and not on works or descent. God has total freedom as sovereign to have mercy and hardening as He sees fit.
In general Paul summarizes well what he is talking about in Romans 9 in verses 30-33 that say in the NASB
Romans 9:30-33 NASB
[30] What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; [31] but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. [32] Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, [33] just as it is written,“ BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
@@VexalPhoenix thank you very much…this was very helpful!
Using that passage about Jacob and Esau for soteriology makes it so that God doesn’t send people to hell as punishment for sin but has already decided beforehand that a man will go to hell for no actual reason. No, it’s a quotation of Malachi where the context is of two nations. Paul is using these two national figureheads to demonstrate how God elected Israel for the purpose of bringing about the Messiah
HEB 12:2 says looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith.... HEB 11:6 says But without faith is is impossible to please him; FOR HE THAT COMETH TO GOD MUST BELEIVE THAT HE IS, AND THAT HE IS THE REWARDER OF THEM THAT DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM" . The Bible says here clearly that God gives you first faith and then you come to Him because he open your eyes to see your sin and repent of it. Arminians are wrong on there view of " choose to beleive" Calvenism are right on their view of God gives you the gift of faith.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
I hope that explains how Jesus is the author of our faith. He finishes it when He appears and our faith will be sight.
Object of our faith not the source of our faith.
God bless.
If God is sovereign, God can change His mind as He did with Nineveh. Did God plan to destroyed Nineveh or did He lied?
No. It was a conditional prophecy based on how man responded.
Hey agente, remember what God said in Jeremiah 18:7-10
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
See where God leaves room for repentance even after He speaks concerning a nation! That answers your question entirely my friend.
Nineveh was in fact judged years later. God cannot lie
You are talking like an Open Theist
If Calvinism is true, it means that God creates disposable people, people without any hope,” “It means that God not only allows, but micro-manages and sovereignly ordains, every war and every abortion and every rape of a child. It means that Calvin’s god does not love the world; he hates it because it is full of “totally depraved” individuals having apparently created us that way for his own glorification, or is it for his amusement? If Calvinism is true , it means that if that dying child that you held in your arms was not among the elect, then God did not love her. He never had any intention of loving her. She was nothing to Him. In fact, he would delight and find glory in her eternal torture in hell.”
Who are really created in the image of then, God or satan?
“And whenever I raise these points with Calvinists, all they can say is that I should be more grateful for my own salvation! It’s like, ‘as long as my eternal destiny is secure, as long as my life is all planned out and taken care of by God, who gives a damn about family, friends or anyone else!’ How can you be okay with that? How can anyone be okay with that? Why do I feel find this heresy morally offensive?” Only the devil should be at ease with such an abomination!
None of this is true. God is glorified in both His wrath and grace. To say He never loved people and that He enjoys them being in Hell is not the character of God. God desires all to be saved, but He knows that’s not going to happen. He decreed what will come to pass for His glory. Also, who are we to tell God anything He does is right or wrong. Our fallible brains cannot comprehend God’s power or knowledge. And it is true that you should be grateful for your salvation. What do we do knowing there are some elect and some not? We evangelize to find them. Do not misinterpret Calvinism and then attack the straw man
Let me then ask you a question about a world with free will governed by your autonomous choices. God dare not interfere with your choices because that is His love towards you.
But let's think about an instance of prophesying from the Bible. Before his arrest and crucifixion, Jesus told Peter that Peter will deny him thrice before the "rooster crows". Now, what happens here? If Peter with his own free will decided to run to the world with no chickens to crow, or deny Jesus only once or not even once, is Jesus a liar? Please give me a solid answer on this point.
james white believes his theologian schooling is the truth but he learned from the ones who hid the truth. He debated off his own sources and any sources his “theologian” school doesn’t accept apparently are not accepted by the Bible. Even though he doesn’t teach the Bible correctly.
Yes!! Thank you!! How are people okay with this?? It almost turned me away from God altogether (like most of the kids I went to church with!) but thank goodness I found the true God and real Christianity. Now I actually love God from my heart instead of pretending to out of fear!
james white is full of tattoos that’s why he wear long sleeves. He is a different person behind the camera. A legit satanist who fooled his own church.
The OT debunks Calvinism. Calvinists rarely if ever use the OT to defend their Calvinistic doctrines
OT confirms Calvinism.
What? 😂 how? How can you say that when God chose a particular people. He chose Abraham. Abraham didn’t choose God
@@SquishyyyBeaner
Liberal theology... spirits, experiences, feelings ... nonsense.
And they neglect scripture
@@fadihajjhassan6492 I was responding to the guy not you
@@SquishyyyBeaner
I know, that's why I said they.
Note that the unsaved, the rebellious, those who are avowed atheists of which makes up the majority of humankind!
Note these are the ones whom God did not call the elect! Now that’s a ponderous position to consider and fits in to exactly the Calvin view.
There is the typical example in Judas who betrayed Jesus, the one called the ‘son of perdition’. He was born for the exact task of betraying Jesus. Born as as a son of Hell and ready made, as it were, for to inherit Hell and not for a moment to inherit heaven. God ordained this to be! Like Joseph with His brothers, is not Jesus. A type of Joseph as much as Joseph is a type of Christ. In that Judas meant this for evil but that through the divine decision of God and that through Jesus meant it for Good!
One need not even be a Calvinist to recognise this is exactly Calvin’s argument. Born utterly corrupted, God honours Judas’ ‘ own decision’, which God foreknew and went ahead anyway but planned to do so by His own perfect will! So yes, Calvin has it all there.
That God ‘wills’ all to be saved, he made hell for the majority of Humanity to spend eternity in now way conflict here with God’s love as it is love to permit humanity have the freedom to not choose God. Indeed without hell there could not be a heaven for there would be no freedom to go there. Similarly, there could not be a a heaven if there was no Hell for exactly the same reason. Follow this up with there being righteousness only because there is the position of unrighteousness. Love, only because there is hate. These should be considered opposites to support the whole theology of Freedom of Choice.
Calvinism is christianity at it's purest.
Hmmm, it would seem that the entirety of the Church prior to Augustine missed that point.
Actually you're right. Reformed understanding did indeed exist prior to Augustine (meticulous providence to be specific). The church was not as polite as modern non-calvinsists are. Orthodoxy had a united voice in condemning it as heresy and I can provide the documentation that proves that very thing.
I was just about to answer you point by point but then I saw the statement that you wrote yesterday, "Steve Gregg hates the God of the bible and denies scripture" proving that any attempt of a rational conversation with you is a waste of time. Out.
This may prove to be a waste of time but I'll give it a try. I would be curious to know what you are talking about. To be specific; what does the Bible clearly say God did that Steve says He "allowed to happen"?
I have indeed listened to the debate. They said a great number of things. That's why I asked for some clarification. That's fine though, I quite frankly did not expect you to answer with anything substantial.
Calvinism vs Christianity
Calvinism's whole argument is that God chooses those who will serve Him, its God's work. Therefore your position would be that you don't trust God to make salvific choices? that's a silly argument.
Biblical Christianity vs. Man’s self autonomy
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC amen!
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC Wrong
He has no choice but not to trust him as he has no free will, remember?
Is Gregg an open theist? Open Theism is the thesis that because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.
I think Gregg said he doesn't have a problem with it while White says it is heresy. I am having a hard time arguing about God's understanding of the "future" since for Him, the end was declared from the beginning, and also that He is the Alpha and the Omega. It's almost like what we understand as "future" and "past" is not at all the way he experiences it.
Right, If God doesn't realize what we will do in the future, the crucifixion of Christ must have taken Him by surprise, despite the fact that there are hundreds of prophecies pointing to His crucifixion.
@@Rich-vp4ihand despite Jesus himself having said while alive in Galilee that he would be crucified. Luke 24:6-7
If God changes, how do you know His love for you will not change?
TULIP*
T: Eph 2 You HE MADE ALIVE who were dead in sins...1 John 5:1 John 1: 13
U: Romans 8 Those whom HE CALLED
L: Christ intercedes for the elect and those whom He atoned for (High Priestly work) can't be biblically divided. Hence he is not interceding for each and every person, Hebrews 7, 9
I: Those whom HE called he justified.
P: My sheep will never perish
Calvinism is a “doctrine of devils.”
If your eyes are closed to God's word, his sheep hear his voice and don't follow strangers.
@@kgar5String Correct, Calvinists don’t hear His voice because they aren’t His sheep. Calvinists follow John Calvin and his heretical doctrine, not Jesus. They follow a Jesus who only died for some people and arbitrarily damns some to hell while forcing the elect to follow Him. The god of the Calvinists is not the God of the Bible.
@@MS33496 and they absolutely malign the true character of God, who desires for none to perish but all to come to repentance.
@@keith3362 dualism and semi deism is your theology. Do you know what a personal pronoun is? Who is God patient to? YOU. Who is the YOU Peter is addressing? The epistles weren’t letters written to you. They had a specific audience to whom they were addressing. I mean, you learn this stuff in grade school. Wow.
@@MS33496 Speaking of hearing his voice, It sounds an awful lot like the spirit that inspired it. Ezekiel 36:25-27, I wonder who is doing the talking. John 6:37, are you saying Jesus is preaching a doctrine of devils? Sounds like you don’t hear his voice.
Steve Gregg at time = 6:34: "I personally don't believe that the bible teaches that God ordained certain individuals to be saved"
The bible: "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" Acts 13:48.
Case closed.
lol.
If you want to be sure you believe the truth, you should engage with people's beliefs far better than right there. Acts 13:48 only refutes what he is saying if you take what he is saying in the most uncharitable way possible and have no desire to understand what he actually believes. However, even in that case, you've proved nothing for your side except that you can nitpick how other people speak.
Let's open that case back up:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2
Now, I'll count the seconds before someone accuses me of ripping the verse out of context.
@@BrotherPaulVickers "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". Acts 13:48.
@@lordblarg You're reading comprehension skills are weak, it means that whoever has been ordained to ertenal life, those ordained were only done so because they believed, and obviously not everyone is going to believe, so those who did, were ordained, and by how many, it means what ever the amount of people had believed, how many of them that there are, that number is limited, a few.
It really baffles me that Calvinism is a thing. Mathew 5:46 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? NIV
Now, God invented the laws of logic and and that tells me that God teaches us and follows the laws himself. So it follows that there would be no reward in creation for God if he was the cause of any choice that man made (I think I would take exception to influence on this matter, meaning that I I think God influences us eg God softens or hardens hearts). I think a strong case could be made for God’s hypocrisy (which we know is not true) if that were true. Why not just make humans and go ahead and put them in heaven, why go through the whole of creation?
One last example Genesis 5:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good…
Now, this was quoted by James White (whom I highly respect) but it does not follow if Calvinism is true. There would be no separate wills if Calvinism were true. All will would be one and that would be God’s. Why would God differentiate between his will and man’s will if they were not 2 separate and enforceable entities? Why would you even need the Bible? God is completely sovereign, has already chosen who will be saved, directs the will of both save and damned. What purpose does the Bible serve if not to inspire faith and direct the path of the lost? If God is directing my path, why does he need to be a lamp unto my feet; for I could not take a step that he did not direct?
Not disrespecting Calvinists, these are just my thoughts.
I pretty much said the exact same thing when I first came upon Calvinism.
Thier predestination beliefs Seem to contradict every logical through line I can come up with......
For instance why give us an account of his people in antiquity (their struggles and triumphs and failures) if it can't be used as inspiration & object lessons??
Nobody needs encouragement to stay on a road If your fate is sealed Whether you stay on the road or get off of it
When james white is talking about romans chapter 3 he hits the nail in the head but he does not realize what he is saying when in calvinism they say limited atoment meaning Jesus didn't die for all sinners
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
If all sinners have the sins atoned for everyone goes to heaven.
@@kgar5String you and I were dead in our sins before
were we not part of those without hope?
and yet christ die also for us but we had to hear the gospel and believe it to be save and keep on believing. Till the end. Paul said of the jews that they were the branches that were torn apart for their lack of faith but if they turn to christ God is powerful to craft them back to their place in christ.
Tom read the O.T scripture that Paul is quoting, and you'll understand Paul's quotes are a warning, NOT an indictment of mankind.
Psm 14: 1-3, and
Psm 53: 1-3
@@kgar5String No. Jesus died for ALL sin, but for sinners benefit from that sacrificial death to be saved they must accept J.C. as lord and Savior, AND repent.
@@tommerin892 So their sins are still on them, which means they were not atoned for.
Calvinism = pseudo-biblical dogma
explain ...
@@Im_nobody777 it carries a lot of philosophical baggage (which is rooted in gnosticism) with it that affects the way you understand simple terms like grace, election, predestination etc. So it misleads and causes them to impose a definition on these terms that the Bible does not give them. The main problem consequently is that it becomes difficult, or downright impossible, for a devoted and trained calvinist to read scripture without using the lens of TULIP.
@@MrMarkovka11 generalities, give me specifics on election and predestination. How do you believe your view is the correct view, and how Calvinism is wrong. Specifics pls. From the bible pls.
Yep james whites theologian certificates are only good for one thing… when toilet paper runs out..
@@MrMarkovka11 wouldn't anyone who is trained in something use that particular lens? What matters is that the "lens," or their position, is internally and externally consistent.