Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". . .
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19
If a person in a burning building cries out to someone “please save me” and that person hears their cry and rushes in and saves them, do we celebrate the person who cried out and say he saved himself? Of course not. The bible always contrasts faith and works, and never equates them.
I respect James White because He doesn’t allow anyone to maintain a superficial understanding of Calvinism; he actually challenges you to get into the text. Mr Greg is also presenting a fair view, but i honestly am not yet persuaded by him. This is a great debate nonetheless!😮🍿
It's wonderful hearing an extremely knowledgeable bible scholar and teacher confront a Calvinist "intellect" like Dr. White with some bible passages Calvinists love to claim as theirs. These old debates showing back up on multiple channels are great ways to illuminate the inconsistencies of determinisim.
Except Gregg simply injected his feelings, rather than presented anything resembling biblically scholastic work. Your feelings seem to mirror Gregg's feelings .
Excellent exchange. Thanks for the posting. Steve Gregg is a smart Arminian, who thinks well on his feet. I enjoyed his book on Revelation and believe he loves the Lord and has been used by God. However, Dr. White is an exegete and a first-class theologian. He is a linguist who has a firm command of the Greek language. I have followed his work for decades and find him consistent and scholarly. He does what Gregg does not do: he exegetes the passage. I have also watched the exchange between White and Flowers, same subject. White is a better debater, and those who teach debate (See Wise Disciple) will point out that White beats Flowers handily. I am seeing the same at this point in the debate.
Millennium Now - This is simply NOT true. It’s just a narrative, mostly being pushed by Ken Wilson’s book via Leighton Flowers. If anyone would like an extremely thorough rebuttal just search for “James White Ken Wilson” on RUclips. Their are plenty of episodes where he interacts with the utter foolish claim that Calvinism is an extension of manichaeanism. In fact the claim is so ridiculous, there’s not even room to allow Ken Wilson the possibility of being a terrible researcher. The only conclusion one can come to is that he’s intentionally dishonest in his presentation.
When Steve closed at the end of this debate He left out in Ephesians 1:4 before the foundation of the world… I guess you can be an Arminian if you leave scripture out…
White cites Scripture to support the Biblical doctrines of man's depravity, as well as God's sovereignty. Gregg opines that God's love supercedes God's justice and gives no Scriptural justification for this. Gregg injects his feelings on how he thinks man's natural state is that man can choose God and the good. He also injects his feelings on who he wishes God to be .
I was very arminian. I baulked at reformed theology, but then I kept reading it in scripture. Finally, I had no choice (hahhahhahahhaha!) but to conclude that reformed theology is correct.
When you say you were “very arminian”. What specific arminian tradition were you in. Wesleyan, Classical, or were you just a whosoever will type of guy.
@@jerardosc9534 I believed you could lose salvation, that salvation was entirely dependent on my choice and the correct performance of that choice. But, that was as a brand new, ignorant believer. Whatever I was taught, I believed. So, I was a mixture of assemblies of God and Southern Baptist.
@@waterfowlcoalition7920 Were you taught total depravity, prevenient grace, perseverance of the saints by faith alone and other specific arminian doctrines
@@jerardosc9534 Yes, but it took me several years to give the teachings I received the above labels. I see you are asking me a line of questioning that appears to be heading a particular direction. What is it you are trying to find out?
Same here. Even tho i grew up in a calvinistic church i always held to an arminian kind of view even tho i even didnt know what the terms ment. I didnt even know what calvinism truely stood for, i just knew our church was calvinistic. When i leared what calvinism was i disliked it and was very much against calvinism. Until i saw a video of james white responding to Mike wingers video on calvinism and even though i always was a mike fan i couldnt deny that James point was a good point. And that moment changed a little bit in my thinking. And after studying more and more i finally came to realise that my anger towards calvinism was nothing but my pride not willing to accept that it wasnt my choice but all Gods work. I now realise that it was that little part in me still wanting to boast in my 'free will' to believe as if i was better therefore than an unbeliever for freely choosing that. But thank the Lord he made me know the truth. I have nothing to boast in. If it was up to me i would still live in sin, be dead and not believe. It was his doing alone that brought me to faith. To him is all the glory and i now am happy that all the Glory is for him alone.
Even before I new of the Calvinist view I didn't read it from a supposition at all but read it exactly for what it was actually saying. In actual fact if anything the Arminian perspective is reading their own supposition into the text.
@@contemplate-Matt.GBecause 1) if God extends the same grace/opportunity to all, then the difference between someone in heaven and someone in hell is not anything God did, but the result of human actions. 2) It means that God desired to save the people who will spend eternity in hell but failed because of the almighty power of "human free will." Reformed theology teaches that the only reason anyone goes to heaven is the work of God alone, and that people are not in hell purposelessy
@@diarmuidsheehan4927 You didn't really answer my question. Because 1) if God "decides" to give you the ability to believe or reject, as my question was phrased, then it is God's decision to give you the ability to believe or reject. 2) Believing in the Bible is the equivalent to "trust". When you truly believe Christ, you trust that He already did the "work" so that you don't have to. So in that case, i.e., the case where God wants you to decide whether to trust that Jesus did the sufficient work for you or not, God still gets glory. In other words, Calvinists are presenting a strawman argument in the "glory" thing. God doesn't lose any glory at all if He wants you to decide.
@@contemplate-Matt.G ofcourse you retract glory from God. If its Gods decision to give you a choice or not doenst change anything about the fact that what sepparates you from an unbeliever in hell is that you made an autonomous act that causes you to go to heaven and them not. If Gods grace is equal and the choice for everyone is the same, then the only thing that sepparates you from the other guy is you. So you can boast in your choice to belief. Cause you chose to belief and the other did not. Somehow you apparently were smarter, more humble or whatever that made you make the right choice. But scipture is clear that faith is of God (ephesians 2:8)
I always fit into a weird category on the Calvinism vs Armenian debate, as I’m somewhere in the middle. I believe some people God gardens their heart and makes it impossible for them to get saved while others he forces to get saved I believe this is a select group that is a small percentage, but it exists. I also believe that most people choose to believe or not. I don’t understand the totally depraved aspect. I feel like that takes things a step too far. You don’t have to be 100% evil to not get into heaven. You have to be 0% evil and 100% good. So, someone born 1% evil and 99% hood still won’t get into heaven. The 1% makes the 99% useless, sure, but it doesn’t make the 99% evil
As an Arminian, I believe in Total Depravity just as the Calvinists do. Total Depravity does not mean humans beings are all a bunch of hedonists. It can include people seeking to establish their own righteousness. It can also include those who cannot discern spiritual things because the god of this world has blinded them. The bible states that Satan has deceived the whole world. Man is not more powerful than Satan. The doctrine of Total Depravity requires grace to free a person so that they may see the light of the gospel and respond to it . Arminians believe this grace is resistible (prevenient grace) ,while Calvinists believe it is irresistible.
Honestly, James Whites contribution to the Christian faith cant be understated, but it doesnt mean he gets everything right. We need both of these men.
Why would a loving God create people who do not have the ability to live a sinless life and then blame them for sinning. No one is sinless except Christ and God knew no one else would be sinless. I just can’t believe Calvinism is true. If I’m missing something, please let me know.
Hi Gary, regarding your statement "If I’m missing something, please let me know". What you're applying to Calvinism (Reformed theology) is called 'equal ultimacy in double predestination'. In a equal ultimacy, God influences the nonelect to be reprobate unto damnation. Under an equal ultimacy God is active in both salvation and damnation. Calvinism teaches UN-equal ultimacy; God simply passes over the reprobate to leave them in their sin. God is active in salvation, and passive in reprobation. So, the force of what Calvinists are saying is that God has always had an elect people, and since Satan introduced the knowledge of good and evil into the root of the elect (Adam), all sinned and eventually spawned people outside of God's election. So, then the question becomes does God allow those outside election to become saved? I would say yes, but these don't seem to remain with Christ according to scripture and real-life experiences. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19
I want to thank Jesus Word for your thoughtful reply to my question. I never seriously studied Calvinism but leaned that way until I read, Does God Love Some But Not All by Ronnie W Rodgers. This book opened my eyes. I just can’t believe a loving God would create people that He knew would end up in hell without ever giving them a choice to accept or reject Christ. It would be better for the non-elect to have never been born. I do respect you for the study you have obviously done but I just can’t understand how Calvinism can be reconciled with a God of love.
Jesus' Word , you have misrepresented the Calvinist/reformed perspective. If Calvinism is true, the eternal state of man is a true dichotomy, the the one choice of choosing the elect, seals the fate of every person that will ever live. Any selection of groups in a true dichotomy, is a double predetermination, by definition. There is no other option. If you pick a basketball team from a group of people, there are only 2 catergories. Either you are on the team or you are not on the team. Those you meticulously select, to give you the best chance at winning, to be on the team are on the team. Those you looked over and did not select in that same meticulous decision, also have their fate sealed by the same meticulous decision. Regardless of how meticulous or how random the decision is, the one choice, necessarily seals the fate of everyone. It’s a true Calvinistic dilemma. They tend to make all kinds of outlandish assertions about secondary causes and compatibilism to try to explain, but it just makes things worse.
So do you believe God knows the future? If so, you have the same dilemma. From scripture we know God knows the future, Arminians even agree with that as far as I know. So then you have the same dilemma. If God knows what you are going to do tomorrow, do you have the free will to do something different? If you can, his foreknowledge is imperfect, which means he doesn't actually know the future and can make mistakes. AKA He isn't God. If you can't, then you have the same predicament that you claim Calvinism has. So take that one step further, does God know who will be saved? If He knows they won't be saved, do they have the "free will" to be saved anyway? Making Him wrong, and his foreknowledge erroneous? Arminians, and anyone who believes in the perfect foreknowledge of God has the same problem, not just Calvinists. The difference is, Calvinists can rest on the sovereignty and promises of God. I don't know how an Arminian can answer those questions. In fact, I've asked several, but no one has answered me.
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you,(A) how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,(B) and you were not willing. Matthew 23:37 (God pretending according to Calvinism)
Yeah, who is Christ addressing in the whole chapter? The Jewish leaders. They Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and stoned those sent to you. Those Jewish leaders he calls them Jerusalem. He wanted to gather YOUR children. Who is the personal pronoun your addressing? The same Jewish leaders. And YOU were not willing. Who is that personal pronoun addressing? Again the Jewish leaders. The Jewish leaders wouldn’t let the children be gathered. It is the same thing christ states earlier in the chapter in v13 Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves 👉🏻nor allow those who would enter to go in. 👈🏻
@@jasont5300 Back in Matthew 12:30 it says that those who are not with Christ are scattering...... That shows the enmity of the leadership of Israel in that wicked generation. It was certainly Christ's will of disposition that He was willing to gather those as a hen gathers her chicks, but He did not decree that they would be gathered that way. What was coming was the judgment of Jerusalem for stoning those sent to them, the filling up of the measure of sin -- that all the blood of Abel forward would be upon that wicked generation.
I believe man can't choose God on his own unless God supernaturally intervenes, but I am also convinced that God supernaturally intervenes to give man free choice in the matter. That's why it says "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." ~ Hebrews 3:15b Why would God tell us not to harden our hearts if we have no choice in the matter? When God visits mankind and tells them to repent, we are given a choice. We aren't given this choice all the time. It's a special visitation from God. Is that Calvinism or Arminianism? I don't know, but I believe God has given everyone enough evidence and opportunity to be saved.
I see your Point. But the question i‘‘m making to myself is, if everyone get‘s the same Grace and YOU have to decide only by yourself, why you say yes and the other one say no? Are you smarter? Are you More God fearing? Where your eyes More opend then his? Did you Love God More then him other better saying did you hate God leser then him?
@30:25 He gave himself away completely - "Some day I MIGHT be caught up with in the air." He is not even able to say for certain that he is saved. How many verses talk about salvation in the past tense, it always amazes me how Arminian's can see the grammatical tenses and then immediately abandon them for the sake of their argument.
Might here means he doesn't know if he'll be alive or dead when Jesus returns... not if he's saved or not. Only some if the saved will be "caught up in the air".
I believe the reason that there are qualifiers for salvation is simple. They are not because the elect can fall away as Steve asserts. But to give evidence to those who are not in Christ but are really those who are not of us, to identify them. So that those who fall away, or want to twist the scripture & are not the elect can be identified. The "churches" are full of these very people with itching ears who gather false teaches saying smooth words & fair speeches. Things like; you can be a believer without God choosing you. Someone who conjures up faith without Holy Spirit regeneration, who accepts Christ & prays the sinners prayer, rather than someone the Father draws & gives to the Son. They are the people who say Lord, Lord, but do not the will of the Father, these lawless ones who Messiah says He never knew. Welcome to the world of self willed "believers" not called of God, but of themselves. Who twist Gods word to their own destruction. The 501c3 churches are full of them. Loud and brash and full of themselves rather than the Holy Spirit.
You have to purposely ignore every logical through line When considering the implications of what Calvinists believe..... Serious question; Do THEY Ask these questions to themselves? Because I don't believe they do. It is so logically inconsistent with scripture that it baffles the mind. And so I assume they just focus on specific proof texts and stay there. Never considering the wider implications.
@TobyTalkless For instance; A predestination belief indicates that all those who have suffered Throughout history did so because God willed it. Not only is he now clearly responsible for every horrible act but also for temptation. Violating the scriptures that claim God does not try any one, Nor is he responsible for evil. With predestination he certainly is responsible for both.
@@TobyTalkless I don't think I do. There are certainly many things that are predestined from our point of view. All of them have to do with God's will being done. Specifically because he never fails to accomplish it. But that is a far cry from the God of the heavens, controlling every aspect of humanity and the universe. Every choice you make? ALL Outcomes?? I don't think the Bible teaches that at all.
Minute 30:20-25 „ I may be“ ? Men if you don’t Know that for sure i would be really conserned… That really made me think about what he is saying. May the Lord Jesus lead us into all truth in his Holly Word.
When Paul talks about us being in Christ, that’s salvation. Mr. Greg is just actually debating himself because James White more or less is saying the same thing he is that we are in Christ. We are part of Christ body that’s salvation nowhere in a text does it state that the chosen one is Jesus it says God chose us in him. It doesn’t say God chose Jesus and chose us in him. That’s not what the text says. Where is he getting the idea that it say in the text that Jesus was Chosen.
year 2020: Still listening, reading, studying, and searching about Calvinism and Arminianism. But I still get no answer and still not decided. I don't understand why one is more scriptural than the other. Both principles and teachings are clearly be found in the scripture. Both are claiming that their interpretation is more biblical and more correct than the other. I mean, I don't have problem listening and agreeing to Calvinism or Armenianism, as I have said their arguments are both supported by the word of God (based on the plain meaning of the text). but the real question is. If someone doesn't agree with Calvinism... is he or she can be saved? When we share the gospel, should we tell people about Calvinism/Arminianism? People like, in Papua New Guinea, Africa, or places that are remote and far away from this kind of thing (study, scholar, theology, exegesis, hermeneutics, history, etc) How would they understand salvation, freewill, sin, predestination, and all this doctrine...? Calvinism/Arminianism doesn't really matter in their salvation. but they must have their own understanding when they read the scripture. Should the Calvinism say they are heretics?
God saved you by his grace when you believed. The difference between synergism and monergism is either God gave you the ability to believe, or your ability to believe came from you. If you believe that faith came from you, then this would be considered a work. A work is defined as any activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. Faith has to originate from God, hence monergism. Faith is presented as a gift from God in 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, and Acts 3:16. If faith came from you would be able to boast. All boasting is eliminated in salvation (cf. Rom. 3:27; 4:5; 1 Cor. 1:31).
@@JesusWordApologetics hm?? before I heard about Calvinism/Arminianism.. I have it already in my heart, that I should believe in Jesus for my salvation, and I did not feel or think that I'm boasting or proud of that. I was thankful actually. before, I was more concerned on how I live my life.. but now, since I got interested about these things, you know, the 'isms' I got more interested about argument, belief, teachings, doctrines etc. I've read and researched about Calvinism and Arminianism as well as other isms, but I still don't get their points why they have to disagree... as I have said both arguments are supported by the scripture.. I think the differences is in each individuals interpretation, and for me, I don't have problem with any of these two systematic theology since I found these teachings in the bible.
@@joeffreysarita8601 These are merely intra-church discussions. And should never be used as a stick to beat someone over the head with. If you love Jesus and persevere to the end then you are saved. Not by anything you did, but of God and God alone. Thats what I believe, and I don't question if someone's saved or not. Thats up to Jesus.
The story of the potter in Jeremiah 17 disproves Calvinism. The potter wished to make a beautiful vessel but the clay refused. This picturing Israel, God wanted them to be vessels of his mercy but they refused & therefore become vessels of his judgement!
First, it's Jer 18, not 17. Next, you're adding to the text actions that are not there. It looks like you've actually missed the point of the whole potter/ clay relationship. The potter does what he wants with the clay, just as God does what he wants with Israel. How come that's so hard to see? Ponder this; The death nil to Arminianism is the doctrine of the neutrality of the will. That's what every Arminian argues for, that man can choose to believe or not believe. But the scriptures nowhere teach the neutrality of the will, only that man's will is corrupt and in bondage to sin. Besides the scriptures, the greatest anecdotal evidence of this is that NOT ONE SINGLE MAN out of the billions that have ever existed has chosen to obey God perfectly. Not one! How then could anyone argue that man's will is neutral? If man's will was neutral, then statics would show close to 50% to choose perfect obedience to God, but 0%? It's like if someone flipped a coin. The coin is neutral, it doesn't care if it lands on heads or tails. But if you flipped a coin 10 times and it landed on heads each time, what would you think? How about 100xs or 1,000 xs? How about 15 billion times? At some point your going to think something else is at play that you can't see right? So no, they both can't be right.
@@toddcote4904 you are right it’s chapter 18 but read verse 4, whenever the clay did not take the shape the potter wanted, the clay here clearly can refuse the will of the potter!
@@mthulisidube5502 Where does it say "the clay refused to take the shape the potter wanted"? It simply says the clay was marred. Are you suggesting the clay marred itself? Jer 18:4 - And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. Metaphors are used to make a primary point, which you are missing. The point is not that "the clay can refuse the will of the potter" good grief, it's "so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make." The point is God can make another vessel into what He wants using the SAME clay. Meaning, it's going to go through a transformation process, whether it likes it or not, because the Potter (God) will have a vessel He wants in the end.
@@toddcote4904 that’s exactly the contact of the story, I want you to not sin but you have refused & continue to sin otherwise why is God angry with them, there are doing what he doesn’t want
Debate ends when Gregg speaks here in part 2 (this video). He really says let’s deal with John 6. Then he immediately leaves the context of the scripture and starts reading from John 17 which is a different context. Wow. You can even hear the trepidation, nervous exhales and insecurities in his voice. He knows the wheels have come off. How can a Bible teacher refuse to explain a specific passage of scripture like this??? That was the end.
He was answering a question that James asked about God wanting to save someone and then not being saved. He referenced a Bible passage to demonstrate that. That's running away? Really?
Yep. Synergists always have the wheels fall off. Their desire to elevate man to an autonomous being is their downfall. Simple fact is that libertarian free will is unbiblical and illogical. Biblical free will is the ability to choose what is in line with your nature, what you desire most. Apart from God, no man chooses the ways of God. We aren’t robots, but we also aren’t autonomous sovereigns that can determine the actions and plans of God. Calvinism clearly adheres to biblical teachings, that God ordains all things to pass and uses the free choices of men to accomplish these goals. All synergists have are straw men and mischaracterizations to try and straw man their point.
Libertarian Free will is unbiblical and illogical. As Edwards clearly stated, we have the freedom to choose what is in line with our nature, what we desire most. And the Bible is crystal clear that apart from God, we will never choose the things of God. God ordains all things to pass and uses the free choices of men to accomplish those things. God is not limited to the same constraints that we are, He is above us. Creatures and the Creator. Human responsibility and God’s sovereign decree are both clear in scripture and only reformed theology does justice to these clear teachings. Man centered vs God centered. Monergism vs Synergism. One elevates man to an unbiblical level that makes God dependent on the actions and choices of men, the other recognizes that God is dependent on no man. The Bible is clear that God chose us. We can only choose Him based on the action and love of God first choosing us. Denying this is such an arrogant and unbiblical view
Has anyone else noted that James White here is basically reprising the attitude and form of the Synod of Dort's reactions to the ancient Arminians? He dismisses them. He wants them to make a positive statement of what they believe. He wants them to not debate the flaws of Calvinism... it is literally the same objections they raised then. Yet just as they did, he misdirects, he misrepresents scripture, he lies, he uses snuck premises and many other underhanded tools to keep Mr Gregg from being able to actually communicate his views. You are a very good Pharisee Mr White. Worthy of Sanhedrin I'd say.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". :)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19
@@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool Interesting. When does it come about? Also, what does this have to do with the debate? Are you comparing this prayer to Arminianism?
Gregg mopped the floor with White on John 6. He used the book of John to interpret the book of John in regards to who those given to Jesus by the Father were. White's accusation that Gregg somehow failed by giving a big picture view rather than an isolated step-by-step exegisis (and ignoring other relevant passages) is stupid.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". . .
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19
Doesn’t Nicolas of Antioch from acts 6, someone respected and full of the spirit. Who became the father of a the false teachings of nicolaitans, referenced negatively in the book revolution. Show someone truly saved in Christ who decided to reject the faith? Contradicting the Calvinist teaching?
Acts 6:5 "This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, as well as Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism." It is only Stephen who was described as full of faith and of the Holy Spirit. Others were chosen for ministry but we don't see any reference to their character.
It could be to identify who are the true Israelites at that time. This was revealed even more in the New Testament (Jn. 1: 47, Rom. 9: 6, and Rev. 3: 9) God indeed knows from eternity past those who are truly His even from among ethnic Israel.
Human freedom and the sovereignty of God aren’t a problem for Calvinists. God sovereignly decrees all things to pass and uses the free choices of the creatures to accomplish those decrees. The problem is the unbiblical view of “libertarian free will” which doesn’t exist. People are free to choose that which is in line with their nature, to choose what they want most, and apart from God, they don’t want the things of God. That is biblical free will. Not this idea that creatures can choose arbitrarily, against their will or the will of God. That is a humanistic, philosophical and frankly illogical concept.
How can you not here the scriptural consistency and beautiful message of Gods character, that white is talking about, Gregg almost stays away from the scriptures entirely uses human charachteristics to make his arguments.
White, again, shoots himself in the foot when he points out the distinction in John 17 between those given to Jesus by The Father (i.e. the apostles) and those who will believe because of the word of the apostles. By doing this White is actually conceding that there are 2 groups: 1 specially handed over from the Father to Jesus (i.e. the apostles), and one that simply come to believe in an ordinary way (by hearing the word of the apostles). This distinction undermines White's position that every believer is irresistably handed to Jesus by The Father.
If calvanism is true we are saved by grace through God's election, instead of being saved by grace through faith right? That seems problematic but I am still sorting it all out.
There are so many logical fallacies in Calvinism that you can't keep track of them all. For example, Calvinism attributes all of Man's behavior to God himself, meaning God is the only true actor. If that is the case, then Man is really God and Satan is none other than God playing a role directed by HIM. And if that is true, then God is punishing himself, abhorring himself, and rejecting himself.
John 3:3-5 you must be born again and this is the work of GOD alone bec man have no ability to receive gift without regeneration or born in spirit.The Spirit should dwell first in man before he receive the gifts..1cor 2:14-15. Eph 2:8-9 Grace faith salvation is a gift from God not the work of man so no one may boast,,James 1:17 all good gifts and perfect gifts is from GOD
God chooses ends, but that doesn't deny the necessity of means. Imagine you turned on a lamp, and I asked, "Why is the lamp on?" Suppose you said "So that I can read a book" and I responded that the lamp was actually on because electricity is flowing through the wires causing the filament to emit light. It's obvious here that we are both correct, but I wouldn't be seeing the full picture. Reading a book is the end, but having electricity flow through the bulb is a means. Likewise, God's election is the ultimate reason why someone is saved, but this doesn't deny the fact that God uses a means (faith) to accomplish it in order to glorify Himself. God decided that the granting of faith would be the means of salvation. I hope this answer helped.
Dr White states that God is soveign and His will is always done. How would he explain 2 Peter 3:9 then? If God's will is that none would perish, but everyone to come to repentence, and His will cannot be thwarted, then it would stand to reason that all men will come to repentence and be saved, wouldn't it?
The subject of the passage is not salvation but the second coming of Christ. Peter is explaining the reason for the delay in Christ’s second coming. He is still coming and will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night (v. 10). What your saying is that salvation is dependent on human action, and not the will of God.
@@PETERJOHN101I was explaining the context of the verse which you don't want to acknowledge, what you've written is your own conclusion from my reply. Also, God does not owe anyone salvation. All men have sinned and deserve God's wrath. But God displays His love towards us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for the ungodly. Whoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life 🙌🏿
Steve Gregg's theology is terrible. I watched his debate with the SDA, and he lost that debate terribly. And not because SDA is right, but Steve Gregg's theology is wrong
And how so? He’s not a Calvinist who follows Calvin so I’d say it’s pretty good. Like really name at least ONE thing if you’re going to say something like this.
If Gregg’s theology is bad, then imagine the unbiblical doctrines of James White. The philosophical fallacies Calvin has about the text are the reason Calvinist read the Bible in a Calvinistic way. No one read the Bible like Calvinist before John Calvin.
@@Solideogloria00 Your response just sound’s angry because you know you cannot refute James whites teaching that’s why you made the angry comment, but will pray for you🙏
@@carolwilliams383 Why then do we find nearly every book written God says 'if you would only...' 'then I would....' If you do not....' 'Then I will....' Why would God want robots? Would you desire your husband to 'have' to love you or 'desire' to love you? We are made in God's image...we are rebellious to want our own way. God is trying to humble us, make us as Himself. Those that refuse to, will not walk with Him in the last day. Be careful to heed the warnings '...run this race to the end.' That's why no one knows their final fate until that fateful end. It would be presumptuous to think we know beyond any douobt what God will or will not do. We barely know our motives....only God does and He deals with each of us to bring us closer to Him. It most definitely is a choice we make to deny self and pick up His cross and follow Him, or to turn our backs on His Way, Truth and Life. God bless and keep you and all near to Him as we seek after Him with all of our hearts, minds and souls
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". . .
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 The believing is active. Everyone who is believing in him will not perish. This is how the literal translation is written. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have continuous life. Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19 I agree we must repent, but God is the one who grants repentance because our fallen nature is so fallen to repent. Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgivenes Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” 2 Timothy 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. The all in 2 Peter 3:9 are the elect. If God is waiting for every individual, then everyone would be saved. God also foreknows all things, and he knows who are his. Anyway, the best soteriological verse on how salvation works are these. Romans 8:29-30 29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers; 30 and those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified. God does all the action, and man receives it. If God does these things for THOSE, then he obviously doesn't do it for OTHERS. The THOSE are his elect. If God did this for everyone, then everyone at one point would have been a believer. Since you can't lose your salvation, they also would have been saved forever. Even if you think they can lose their salvation, they still at one point would have believed for some time, which we know is not the case for all unbelievers. We just have to accept that we play no role in our salvation, and the glory goes to God alone. @refrigeratorinthewinter138
1:45 JW and other Calvinist literally make millions from "being Calvinist". This statement is ridiculous. It is literally the Gospel to many of his followers who buy his books. The spice definitely flows within house Calvin...
Anyone who is as well known as JW who makes a money claim about “how there’s no money in it” I roll my eyes. There’s plenty of money in ministry once you get to his level
Poor Arminians. But, many/most times the elect sons of God learned the pernicious ways of the lovers of self (Arminians) before the Light of the glorious gospel of grace brought us out of darkness. Now, having been given seeing eyes by the Spirit of Truth, we can pray for the unregenerates, that He will have mercy on them as He did us.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". .
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19
It’s just odd how White looks at Gods sovereignty working with free will. Surely God chose certain men to be used knowing how they would respond had God put certain means in their path. I mean did God put it into the hearts of the Jews to kill Jesus? No, but God did send Jesus into the world in a specific way where it would cause them to stumble over the rock. And it’s the same with all God’s plans when He works with the free will of mankind. Even with Joseph’s brothers, God didn’t make them hate Joseph directly, but he knew if he gave Joseph a certain dream where Josep will rule over his brothers then they’d hate him because of that and other reasons. But it’s not that God put that hate directly into their hearts, but rather God used a specific means to accomplish His will within that situation. And of course that was all planned to happen from eternity past. God has planned all things from eternity and how He would accomplish His will in all things. He chose the Pharaoh to enslave Gods people, He then chose Moses to rescue them and God planned, from eternity, through specific means, to harden pharaoh’s heart so as to finish His will with him. It’s the same with the gospel as God planned from eternity to being Christ into this world as He did, and to have Him die as He did, and to have Him rise from the dead as He did, and God knew by bringing all these things about in the exact why He did many would willingly chose to believe and many would not chose.. How does God accomplish His will where many would believe as a sure thing? That many would chose faith in Christ without being controlled? It’s through His sovereignty within His planning. The gospel has never been just “possible” in relation to man’s free will, but rather it has always been a sure thing. Calvinism denies Gods ability to be God in my opinion. It’s like unless Gods a puppeteer, he can’t accomplish his will.
Except man is a slave to sin and dead in sin, though man is physically alive. God has made man and maintains man as able to make choices according to his (man's) will . Man is not able to choose and do anything he can imagine, but only what is within the parameters that God sets .
@@timothykring4772 yeah in your opinion. But that is no more than just your interpretation of what it means to be dead in sin. That’s an interpretation … held by many men and yet not not held by many others
@@jayman1338 my opinion ?? No, the Scriptures uses the words ' at enmity ' with God -- the English translation of the state of being actively opposed, hostile toward , and an enemy of God . That opposition is not my opinion, that opposition is what God has said in His Word .
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19 .
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". .
The fallacies of Calvinism are many (and ever growing). Here are just a few... 1) Calvinism, by attributing the fallen state of Man to God, impugns the stated character of God in scripture >> Psalm 5:4,5 and Hosea 9:15 show that God cannot be the causative agent for sin. In the Hosea passage, he invites the sinner to discuss his sins with God, a non sequitur if his sins are predetermined. 2) Calvinism says the Armenialist view forces God to react to the capricious behavior of his creatures >> The Calvinist view that God predetermines the damnation of the majority attributes capriciousness to God himself. 3) Calvinism posits that God saves a minority because the destruction of the majority affords him the greatest glory >> Proverbs 11:1 states that God abhors an imbalanced scale, meaning he only loves an equal balance. If God were responsible for the sins of the world, he would therefore proportion his salvation to mankind equally. According to Jesus in Matthew 7:13,14, such balance is not the case. There are dozens more, like rabbits multiplying in a Spring garden.
Hope you learn Calvinism. You should take the time to study it. 1) No actual calvinist would ever say that. 2) Yes God predetermines who He will save and those He will not. Just because that doesn’t seem fair doesn’t mean you can just not accept the clear Biblical teaching of its. 3) Again don’t say calvinists believe what you think they believe. Study the text.
@@SgtRock1985 I’ve come to the conclusion very recently that a persons viewpoint on pre/post, dispensation, Calvinism or not lead a person to have very strong ideas about faith, Israel, .. salvation. It’s nots not just a point of view anymore it’s truth versus lie at its core.
This man Jame white , is so off base , we must use all scripture to come to truth. Regardless of any teaching of man, we were created to be free moral Agents. And God respects our will, and his is grieve when we don’t accept his will, but he will not force him self on anyone. It’s about choices, choices, choices ! lets real all scriptures, and God will reveal his truth through his word and his spirit...Calvinism is a damnable teaching.
Gregg's been married 5 or 6 times. For an uneducated guy he's good at teaching but he misrepresents Calvinism and for that, you can find someone better.
You’re a guy who doesn’t know a thing about Steve Gregg. You make personal attacks that are, at best misleading, and that’s being generous. Yet you have not one critique of the facts that Steve’s mentioned. And I would love to hear from you, what makes a person “educated” ? I assume a degree. What a fool. Not even White would have stooped to calling Steve uneducated. If Steve is uneducated then James White had all he could handle from an uneducated man. And for your information Steve is married to a wonderful Godly woman. Two of his former wives ‘left him’ and their kids because they wanted a life apparently apart from him and God. And another was killed by a truck….( saving a child in the process). Time will tell if you have the guts to apologize.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". :)
And Calvinism destroys true knowledge. In a Calvinist/determinist world God has ordained all things, including your thoughts, investigations, research and the conclusions you will arrive at. So no matter what, you will believe what God has programmed you to believe. Even going to the Bible means nothing in a Calvinist world since God has decreed that you believe a certain way when you read a certain text. There’s not knowledge in Calvinism, not peace. It’s an evil man made system.
lets go ahead and skip the part where James BLACK DEATH is speaking and lets go only to truth and humility where a person with grace and mercy longsuffering and kindness talks and that is not James White he is uncapable of kind patience and fear of God and humility so lets go onto the people of God and ignore the wolves in sheep clothing please LOL what a scritch continue Steve as you were you actual Cristian who actually love your enemies as your Christ does and stop listening to the demons around us like Cain and Esau and Pharaoh and Hitler and James fucking not so White as snow
I was a synergist most of my life. Then, I actually started reading scripture to understand the essence of our Lord. I started doing word and grammatical studies of scripture, and came to see that the bible is 100% monergistic. The thing that has struck me the most, aside from, now I understand the bible, was the the new peace I had in my heart for the love God has for His own. It was truly humbling.
Brother steve Gregg said God chooses people to believe from the believer who already worship God. (Minute 14:55) It does not making any sense. How about the apostle paul. He was a murderer and the prosecutor of the church of God yet God chose him to be His apostle for the gentile. Tq and God Bless
I was an arminian before but I came to see the Faulty and wrong understanding of the Arminians when it Comes to the sovereignty of God and salvation of man.
God is Sovereign. He knows the past, the present, and the future. No one and nothing escapes his Will. God is absolutely sovereign, and God gave him limited freedom.
R. Joël Guzman-Quispe I'm with Gregg because if the average person reads scripture, most will walk away with the understanding that humans have free will and we are responsible in our decision making. It's not about glorifying man above God in soteriological framework, it's about recognizing how God is glorified in our response of faith. There is no glory retracted from God because responding in faith is how a person is saved (Eph.2:9). It is not considered a"work" as the latter half of 2:9 explains, thus there is no boasting, hence no elevation in man status above God.
Sorry, but how do you read passages such as Ephesians 1:3-6, *Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved* God is the progenitor of our salvation, and I'm very thankful it wasn't left to me. God bless!
Jesus' Word I understand this passage (Ep. 1) to reveal the spiritual blessings to believers. "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him in love" (v.4). The "us" refers to the group of election, (i.e., believers, those saved) who place their trust in Him (cf. vv. 13, 14). He has predestined this group (those who would believe) would receive adoption to sonship because He made us to be accepted "in Him" (v.6). There are no problems for the Armenean thinker here. It fits perfectly in the salvific trajectory presented in the whole of Scripture. Ep. 1:11, 12 speaks of the glory rendered to God as free agents of will "trust in Him." No Armenean or non-Calvinist I know seek to elevate man over God in salvation. They (including myself) desire to exposit the meaning from the text and apply it to their lives as do Calvinists. We may differ on interpretation but we both strive for truth.
Just like James White, you miss the context of the phrase "in Him" which is typical of Calvinist's who only see what they want to see. This is what clarifies what these and many other verses means.
I wonder what anyone has to say on this question. Does the Devil believe that God is a Calvinist? The devil believes in free will!!! and rightly so. What was he doing when he asked God about torturing Job.... did he honestly believe that there was any way Job would curse God? And did God agree to what the Devil proposes knowing that he would win the argument based on him (Job) not being allowed to answer for himself? Or was he glorified through the choices Job makes because of his love and fear of God? If we say that he had free will then it makes sense. If we say that Job was preprogrammed in the way Calvinism proposes and the Devil knew this, then he is seen tricking God into allowing torture onto Job.
STEELSKI, it always amazes me the level of ignorance Arminians use to contort what Calvinists believe. I'm not really sure why Arminians care so much, but they do. They will say things such as "Does the Devil believe that God is a Calvinist?" First, Calvinism doesn't deny free-will, instead it denies the autonomous free-will of man in salvation. Calvinism believes that God at every turn imputes grace; then we are called at some point in our lives (predestination), then justified, and then glorified. All this to be conformed to image that is Christ. We see this in Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." What is the story of Job about? We see in Ezekiel 14:14, "though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, says the Lord Yahweh." Then again in Ezekiel 14:20, "though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, says the Lord Yahweh, they should deliver neither son nor daughter; they should but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." So what was the purpose of Job's trials? We see in James 5:10-12, As an example, brethren (the same brethren found in Rom. 8:29), of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful. But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and you’re no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment. Your statement: "The devil believes in free will!!! and rightly so." Wow. You use Satan to back up your argument of free-will? Satan had no free-will to overcome Job, only that to which the Lord allowed him to do. We see this in Job 1:@1, Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. Arminians deny the sovereignty of God, never taking into consideration the primary and secondary causation of theodicy.
So the devil had no free will, and nor did Job. So God let Satan torture Job at the suggestion of the devil. That makes perfect sense. I do not think you understand that Arminians also say that God is Sovereign, They proclaim that God can do anything. Calvinists say that God must control everything, and leave out the bit about him that should say "if he chooses to"
STEELSKI *Your statement:* So the devil had no free will, and nor did Job. So God let Satan torture Job at the suggestion of the devil. That makes perfect sense. *My reply:* The soteriological argument isn’t if you, or I, are going eat Cheerio’s tomorrow morning or possibly choose Cornflakes. The soteriological issue is; does the agent actually have libertarian free will to choose in some nebulas synergistic way to work with God in election, or are we elected by God from the beginning? The bible states that you are God’s elect from the beginning as we see in Romans 8:28-30, “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Men have deceived you to believe the issue is over free-will when it’s not. Again, in Romans 9:23, “What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.” So can a person somehow achieve salvation by their own fruition? Again, Romans 8:5-8 states no: “For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, *because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God*.” The Arminian view is by works you can synergistically achieve peace with God through your own fruition. *Your statement:* I do not think you understand that Arminians also say that God is Sovereign, They proclaim that God can do anything. Calvinists say that God must control everything, and leave out the bit about him that should say "if he chooses to" *My reply:* What nonsense have you been taught? Who has taught you that God doesn’t have complete control over His creation? You simple look at passages of judgement and confuse this with salvation. Have you ever noticed that these “choice” passages are directed at the ones being judged. And that they never do turn away from their sins. Let’s look at Romans 9:6-13, “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, *not because of works but because of him who calls*-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Let’s look at some of those beloved choice passages that Arminians love to throw out. Joshua 24:15 “And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve…” Did the Arminian happen to read the rest of the verse? “whether the gods which your fathers served (Egyptian gods) which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites (Amorite gods) in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." The people answered and said, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods” The choice being spoken of here was between the Egyptian gods and the Amorite gods. What does it say in Judges 6:10, regarding this passage: “I said to you, 'I am the LORD your God; do not worship the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you live.' But you have not listened to me." No. The non-elect never do listen to God, because they are not of God.
*****, correct. And when did I state otherwise? Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
***** Easy does it my Calvinist brother. Please make sure that you use a tone of grace with those you disagree with. As a doctrines of grace guy, I have found it unnerving sometimes to see Calvinists blast away those less enlightened by God's grace. Grace and truth in love brother, that's what we must be about. I was very turned off by Calvinists at my first encounter until God so fully convinced me of these blessed doctrines because of their arrogance and need to feel right. Understand that those you argue against are people first before they are theologians. That said, you were pretty much on point in your rebuttal =)
Do Arminians see themselves as nondenominational? Because In a Gregg vs Staples debate, he never mentioned this religion. And at the beginning of part 1 he kinda shied away from it too... But now he's like we arminians ...does anyone know?
The bible says Jesus draws all men to him. John 12:32: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” But not everyone believes. 1 Timothy 4:10: "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, ESPECIALLY of those who believe." 1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." It may be true that we cannot seek God on our own, but God draws all men to him. Because of this, we have the ability to accept or reject him. To say Jesus didn't die for everyone, and that he only draws some and not others is rejecting the true gospel in favor of some man made theology.
Hi John, and God bless brother. Phrases such as “the world,” “all men,” “all nations,” “every creature,” and "whosoever/whoever"was used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct the false notion within the Jewish community that salvation was for the Jews alone. These expressions were intended to show that Christ died for all men without distinction (i.e., he died for Jews and Gentiles alike), but these phrases are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception (i.e., he did not die for the purpose of saving every unbeliever). The problem; If Christ died for all men without exception, and unbelief being a sin, then Christ's blood was also a propitiation for the sin of unbelief. Therefore, unbelievers would escape the wrath of God.
Jesus' Word How would you explain 1 Timothy 4:10, which says he's the savior of all, especially to those who believe? In this verse, Paul makes a clear distinction between non-believers and believers, and that Jesus is the savior of both. Whether "all" means "all without distinction" or if it means every single person on earth doesn't really make a difference here, since he includes both saved and unsaved. Ultimately, the only people who will be saved because of his sacrifice are the elect who trust in him. There's a difference in saying "Jesus saves everyone" and "Jesus is the savior of everyone." Christ has to be the savior of everyone (both believers and non believers) since there is no other way for people to be saved. Can non-believers be saved some other way? No. So that automatically makes Christ their savior whether they accept him or not. The same way the President of the United States is the president whether someone supports him or not. Either way, it doesn't changed the fact that he is the president of every U.S. citizen
Hey, brother bets. Sorry, I didn't get to this sooner, but I never got a notification of your post. Your assertions are: The bible says Jesus draws all men to him [then include the following bible verses]. Let's go through them and if there are any issues. John 12:32: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” But not everyone believes. *Reply to John **12:32* Are you saying that this drawing is effectual? That God effected these people to draw them to Himself? That would be against man's autonomous free-will. *Reply to 1 Timothy **4:10* many Universalists interpret the phrase that God is “the Savior of all people” to mean that all will be saved. This is contrary to all sound doctrine and, in fact, has always been viewed as heresy by the Church. The proponents of this idea emphasize the love of God as God’s chief and most important attribute, to the exclusion of all others, such as His holiness and His justice. This heresy is very easily refuted because the Bible makes it very clear that some people will end up in hell, forever. (Rev 14: 9-11; 20:15; Matt 5: 21-22, 27-30; 23: 15, 33; 25: 41, 46). *Reply to 1 John 2:2* Let's look at John 11:51-52, Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one. So, 1 John 2:2 should be read with the understanding that it is talking about "The whole world" means "people of all kinds, including Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, and anyone else". And this is in direct context with "ours only" i.e., the Jewish nation. So, 1 John 2:2 should be read as: He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins [Jewish Nation], and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world [every nation, tribe, people and language, Rev 7:9]. We see 1 John 2:2 reiterated in John 11:51-52, Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one. Have you ever thought through the concept of universal atonement? What is a propitiation? The word propitiation (n) from Late Latin propitiationem (nominative propitiatio) "an atonement," noun of action from past participle stem of Latin propitiare "to appease." What your saying is Christs blood was a propitiation (appeased God's wrath) for unbelievers, haters of Jesus. Jesus' blood removed the sin of unbelief for everyone including Judas, Pilot, Satan...??????????????? Please explain.
Jesus' Word no worries. Just to be clear, we both agree that not everyone is going to be saved by Christ's sacrifice, and that's not what I'm trying to say. But I don't see how that necessarily changes the fact that Christ died for everyone and not just certain people. He died for everyone in the sense that he bore God's wrath on all mankind, and by doing that, everyone has access to salvation through his shed blood. Therefore, Christ is the savior of all men. I'm not a Universalist, but I also don't believe in limited atonement. I believe it is a false dichotomy to say I must be one or the other. Christ satisfied the wrath of God for every single person, but if someone does not believe in Christ and accept this gift, they will not benefit from it. I think of it this way; if someone buys me a plane ticket to a vacation destination as a gift, my plane ticket is paid for. All I have to do is board the plane to get there. But if I don't get on the plane, I will not benefit from the gift and I remain where I am, never arriving to the destination. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that my ticket is paid for. Similarly, Christ was the propitiation for my sins and all of mankind's sins, and God's wrath was satisfied when he was sacrificed. But does it end there with everyone's sins automatically covered? No, Jesus tells us we only have to do one thing, believe in him for eternal life. How would you explain 2 Peter 2:1: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." Would you say that these false prophets who deny Christ are saved? If they are not, how could these people have been bought?
I just listened to the whole debate again, and didn't hear once where Dr. White misquoted John 6:44. Please give a time marker in the audio. I did hear him quoting from John 6:37-40, where it states " *All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out*. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. *This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day*. “For this is the will of My Father, that *everyone* who beholds ["that belongs to"] the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
This is actually a recording from The Narrow Path radio program. The host of that program was actually Steve Gregg. So what you are saying here seems to be that Steve Gregg is biased toward himself and against James White. Better would be to listen to the two men. Particularly whose points are most closely connected to scripture. Rather than trying to decide who won a non-competitive debate on the radio program of one of the two debaters.
How is he elevating man and bringing God down? If God wants man to have a free will of his own, then guess what? God gets what he wants and man has a free will of his own. If anything, Calvinists are the ones who bring God down and elevate man, because they act like they are so intellectually superior that they even understand the mind of God. They limit God's power by believing that he can't give man any free will if he wants to
Hey Dan, good question. From a biblical view It has always been by God; regeneration prior to faith. "...in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."--Gal 3:14, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." --Gal 3:29. The church didn't start at Pentecost, but rather consists of the whole number of the elect, which were purchased for God with Christ's blood [Dan 3:4; 5:19; Rev 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15] from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, all true believers for all time. God bless!
Jesus' Word - thanks for the reply...being reformed for 27 years, I get that the church is all Abraham’s seed. But you didn’t answer my question. How are OT saints able to have saving faith without the promise of Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant promise of the i dwelling HS. Calvinist insist on regen by the HS before faith. The OT, and Hebrews 11 seems to credit the OT saints with faith first, and how that moved God.
Great question Dan, clearly the Old Testament taught from start to finish that God had chosen a remnant within the physical decedents of Abraham. We see in Ezekiel 36:26,27, "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." The Spirit has been active since creation. Deut 30:36 when YHWH is speaking to the Jews says: "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live." The OT Jew's resisted the Holy Spirit as we see in Stephan's plead in Acts 7:51, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."
Daniel R I don’t believe that people before Christ was able to enter into heaven and once Christ was crucified and more important resurrected they are able to leave a so called purgatory
A Christian can fall, but he can never fall away all the way. John 10.28 says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). An Arminian is once-saved-always-saved. Jacob Arminius said never once did he ever say a person who was saved could lose salvation. Therefore, Steve Gregg is both an Open Theist and a Remonstrant. He is not an OSAS Arminian.
Steve Gregg , you did a great job explaining the " Chosen in Christ " verses , the only thing I would differ on is that we are , present tense , seated with Christ but not physically as you said but spiritually it is a present reality .
Dr. White tore to shreds all of Gregg's premises. the bottom line is that TULIP is totally scriptural and that of those arguing for mans free will over that of God's at least in his salvation is heresy.
Election and Pre destination Is Rejected because man wants credit and glory in the matter!! Election in fact originated With God before the foundation of the world,Then was picked up an introduced to the early Christians by Paul By Revelation OF GOD!!NOT MAN!! Both Pre destination..and Election Are not man made DOCTRINES.. Although man corrupted the Doctrines! Nevertheless All of God's Council Shall Stand And He Will do all of His Good Pleasure!
I get a lot of questions regarding Israel, and if Calvinism is true, then why does Jesus plead with Israel to turn and they would be healed? Also, how are the Jews saved if Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? Later question first: Clearly the Old Testament taught from start to finish that God had chosen a remnant within the physical decedents of Abraham. That regeneration took place prior to our faith even during the OT times. We see in Ezekiel 36:26,27, "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." The Spirit has been active since creation. We see in Deut. 30:36, Jesus says: "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live." The OT Jew's resisted the Holy Spirit as we see in Stephan's condemnation of the Jews to the Sanhedrin in Acts 7:51, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." This is why Jesus pleads with His people throughout the OT. He's not saying if the Jews would just choose Him, then synergistically He can now save them. No. Jesus is speaking to the elect (the already chosen) of Israel. We see why Jesus is pleading with Jews to repent, because Jesus gives those who don't repent over to Satan. We see this in 1 Corinthians 5:5, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. Jesus is ending their lives so that they cannot do any further eternal damage with regards to their salvation.
Jesus' Word wrong. 1 Corinthians 5 is a text written TO believers. The Pharisees you cited were never believers or followers of Jesus -- that never had faith in Him. You're viewing scripture through a lens that you've been told to view it through. Jesus wanted all of Jerusalem to be saved but THEY WOULD NOT COME. This has NOTHING to do with delivering a brother to Satan for correction. “"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!” Matthew 23:37 ESV You are so infatuated with listening to high-class Calvinists that you can't read the scriptures for yourself. Your mixing of 1 Corinthians 5 to apply to unbelievers is proof of that.
Aaron Kulukjian would I have gathered YOUR CHILDREN. He’s speaking to the city collectively and lamenting the unwillingness of the stiff necked of letting him gather his sheep
Steve Greg is an open-theist, open theism rejects God’s omnipotence and replaces it with something called "omnicompetence." In an ironic move from Arminians, who decry Calvinistic determinism as God creating pre-programmed automatons, the open theists are quite comfortable with the figure of God as a chess player who is able by his "omnicompetence" to outmanoeuvre his opponents and so, despite setbacks along the way, finally checkmate his adversaries and accomplish his goals. God, as a maximally great being would only permit (or risk) evil with morally sufficient reasons in the form of compensating goods, and that if indeterminism is true, at least some evil results from the misuse of libertarian free will alone, serving no other good purpose. It follows that unless libertarian free will is itself a necessary safeguard of moral responsibility or something very much like it, God would not commit to it with its attached price tag of otherwise purposeless evil. Arminian's cannot account for the purposeless evil derived from their paradoxical argument. The words "mysterious synergy" was simply used as an anthropomorphic explanation of the mystery of how God's knowledge and His will interacts with man. Your statement is red herring in that you state "Either God allows men freedom to make moral choices or he doesn’t." A straightforward deductive argument for the Calvinist determinist view would go as follows: (1) God only ever permits (or risks) the existence of evil when He has sufficient reasons in the form of compensating goods. (2) If God leaves human choices undetermined, the world contains (or has been risked to contain) at least some evil whose sole rationale is to avoid determinism (e.g. open theism, simple-foreknowledge Arminianism, and Molinism). (3) There is no compensating good that comes from avoiding determinism. *Therefore* (4) If God leaves human choices undetermined, He permits (or risks) the existence of evil without any compensating good (follows from (2) and (3)). *Therefore* (5) God does not leave human choices undetermined (follows from (1) and (4)). *Therefore* (6) Calvinist determinism is true (follows from (5)).
Steve Gregg is not an open theist and says he's not in his opening statement. However, I will agree that anyone who rejects meticulous providence and accepts libertarian free will should admit that they are an open theist because man's free will and God's absolute foreknowledge cannot coexist.
Many Arminian's when pressed will fall into the open-theism category as opposed to simple-foreknowledge or Molinist categories. Ok. Steve Gregg is a confused mish-mash of simple-foreknowledge and open-theism.
Critical Thinker = Internet Troll A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues.
Lets go! Your spreading a man centered theology that makes God absent of any sovereignty over His own creation. And I'm the heretic? ...bahahaha. It's you who teaches the false doctrines of conditional election, universal atonement, partial depravity, resistible grace, and the possibility of lapsing from grace if you so chose. Since the teachings of this Hyper-Arminianism to which you love so much, are simply contrary to Scripture, and manifestly false. They're a perversion of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. There is only one gospel, not two. Anyone who preaches any other gospel is preaching a false gospel and is accursed. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Gal. 1:8-9). Hyper-Arminian's such as your self, who hold to these false doctrines consistently must believe that their salvation depends, in part, on their own merit-and persons who are depending on their own merit instead of the merit of Christ are on their way to perdition. If you hold, for example, that God elected you because He foresaw that you would have faith, then why do you have faith, while someone else does not? Don’t you really believe that your faith is meritorious-you merited salvation by your faith, while your neighbor did not have faith, and thus did not merit salvation? If you hold this consistently you are not trusting on the merit of Christ alone but upon your own merit, and you are lost. The biblical Christian believes that salvation is all of grace; otherwise all men are lost. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). You can't go to scripture to back up your claims, you merely depend on your traditions. Your simply a troll searching for someone to spew profanities, and make assertions that you yourself don't even try to defend. The Bible teaches that God elected His people in Christ before time began. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...” (Eph. 1:4). The Bible teaches that election was of God’s free grace and love, with nothing in the creature as a condition or cause inducing Him to do this. “And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, *when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls*, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! *For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy*. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” *So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.* (Rom. 9:10, 18). The Bible teaches that Christ did His atoning work on behalf of His elect people, and no others. “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it” (Eph. 5:25). “I lay down my life for the sheep” (Jn. 10:15). “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine” (John 17:9). The Bible teaches total depravity, that is, that man, in every part of his nature (intellect, emotions and will) is hopelessly ruined by the fall. Fallen man is dead in trespasses and sins and cannot give himself spiritual birth. Regeneration is entirely the working of our gracious, sovereign God. “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1). “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John. 1:13). The Bible teaches that God is absolutely sovereign and all-powerful. “...the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.”.... All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Dan. 4:32, 35). “For who hath resisted his will?” (Rom. 9:19). The Bible teaches that Christ’s true sheep have eternal life and shall never perish. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John. 10:27-29).
Once you see the sovereignty of God in salvation, you cannot unsee it. Before 2011 I didn't see it.
Summed it up perfectly brother Alex. God bless!
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
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And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
@@JesusWordApologetics🥧
@@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool And none of that can you do without God's grace intervening
If a person in a burning building cries out to someone “please save me” and that person hears their cry and rushes in and saves them, do we celebrate the person who cried out and say he saved himself? Of course not.
The bible always contrasts faith and works, and never equates them.
I respect James White because He doesn’t allow anyone to maintain a superficial understanding of Calvinism; he actually challenges you to get into the text. Mr Greg is also presenting a fair view, but i honestly am not yet persuaded by him. This is a great debate nonetheless!😮🍿
And yet whenever he's representing the other side, he always does so in the most superficial way possible.
It's wonderful hearing an extremely knowledgeable bible scholar and teacher confront a Calvinist "intellect" like Dr. White with some bible passages Calvinists love to claim as theirs. These old debates showing back up on multiple channels are great ways to illuminate the inconsistencies of determinisim.
Except Gregg simply injected his feelings, rather than presented anything resembling biblically scholastic work. Your feelings seem to mirror Gregg's feelings .
I love it. White has just played out the very evidence of sealing his misinterpreting God . Nothing unusual for calvinists
Excellent exchange. Thanks for the posting. Steve Gregg is a smart Arminian, who thinks well on his feet. I enjoyed his book on Revelation and believe he loves the Lord and has been used by God. However, Dr. White is an exegete and a first-class theologian. He is a linguist who has a firm command of the Greek language. I have followed his work for decades and find him consistent and scholarly. He does what Gregg does not do: he exegetes the passage. I have also watched the exchange between White and Flowers, same subject. White is a better debater, and those who teach debate (See Wise Disciple) will point out that White beats Flowers handily. I am seeing the same at this point in the debate.
what is his book on Revelation? I want to buy it
Revelation, Four Views by Steve Gregg
The more I study the Word I see the scripture clearly does not teach the fallacy of Calvinism.
Please elaborate on the "fallacy of Calvinism" this should be interesting.
Agreed Amen.
Your comment is meaningless.
@@Charlie5225 yes. Bible only teach PreDestination
Millennium Now - This is simply NOT true. It’s just a narrative, mostly being pushed by Ken Wilson’s book via Leighton Flowers. If anyone would like an extremely thorough rebuttal just search for “James White Ken Wilson” on RUclips. Their are plenty of episodes where he interacts with the utter foolish claim that Calvinism is an extension of manichaeanism. In fact the claim is so ridiculous, there’s not even room to allow Ken Wilson the possibility of being a terrible researcher. The only conclusion one can come to is that he’s intentionally dishonest in his presentation.
When Steve closed at the end of this debate He left out in Ephesians 1:4 before the foundation of the world… I guess you can be an Arminian if you leave scripture out…
Yup
White cites Scripture to support the Biblical doctrines of man's depravity, as well as God's sovereignty. Gregg opines that God's love supercedes God's justice and gives no Scriptural justification for this. Gregg injects his feelings on how he thinks man's natural state is that man can choose God and the good. He also injects his feelings on who he wishes God to be .
I was very arminian. I baulked at reformed theology, but then I kept reading it in scripture. Finally, I had no choice (hahhahhahahhaha!) but to conclude that reformed theology is correct.
When you say you were “very arminian”. What specific arminian tradition were you in. Wesleyan, Classical, or were you just a whosoever will type of guy.
@@jerardosc9534 I believed you could lose salvation, that salvation was entirely dependent on my choice and the correct performance of that choice. But, that was as a brand new, ignorant believer. Whatever I was taught, I believed. So, I was a mixture of assemblies of God and Southern Baptist.
@@waterfowlcoalition7920 Were you taught total depravity, prevenient grace, perseverance of the saints by faith alone and other specific arminian doctrines
@@jerardosc9534 Yes, but it took me several years to give the teachings I received the above labels. I see you are asking me a line of questioning that appears to be heading a particular direction. What is it you are trying to find out?
Same here. Even tho i grew up in a calvinistic church i always held to an arminian kind of view even tho i even didnt know what the terms ment. I didnt even know what calvinism truely stood for, i just knew our church was calvinistic. When i leared what calvinism was i disliked it and was very much against calvinism. Until i saw a video of james white responding to Mike wingers video on calvinism and even though i always was a mike fan i couldnt deny that James point was a good point. And that moment changed a little bit in my thinking. And after studying more and more i finally came to realise that my anger towards calvinism was nothing but my pride not willing to accept that it wasnt my choice but all Gods work.
I now realise that it was that little part in me still wanting to boast in my 'free will' to believe as if i was better therefore than an unbeliever for freely choosing that.
But thank the Lord he made me know the truth. I have nothing to boast in. If it was up to me i would still live in sin, be dead and not believe. It was his doing alone that brought me to faith. To him is all the glory and i now am happy that all the Glory is for him alone.
If man has no free will, why even be a pastor? Calvinism makes life meaningless. God loves us and I believe some things he plans and much he does not.
Clearly you don't understand calvinism or reformed theology. Or just misrepresent the position
We believe that men has will but not free will.....
Men have free will to satisfy his own desires but never to choose God !
Those are born again in spirit have freewill to choose good and not evil,bec the bible says God working in you both to will and to do in HIS pleasure.
@@mayannfebrero845 very good points and response .
Steve Gregg wins again hands down . I am very surprised James isn't using any sarcasm here . He is known for that in most debating circles
Even before I new of the Calvinist view I didn't read it from a supposition at all but read it exactly for what it was actually saying. In actual fact if anything the Arminian perspective is reading their own supposition into the text.
Excelent Dr. White. In terms of salvation I believe that salvation and the chosen, come from God. I am more calvinism.
Gregg is losing the debate and it's not even close. All glory to God
Please explain how God loses glory if He decides to give you the ability to believe or reject
@@contemplate-Matt.G He doesn't lose glory. James White brings Him glory.
@@contemplate-Matt.GBecause 1) if God extends the same grace/opportunity to all, then the difference between someone in heaven and someone in hell is not anything God did, but the result of human actions. 2) It means that God desired to save the people who will spend eternity in hell but failed because of the almighty power of "human free will."
Reformed theology teaches that the only reason anyone goes to heaven is the work of God alone, and that people are not in hell purposelessy
@@diarmuidsheehan4927 You didn't really answer my question. Because 1) if God "decides" to give you the ability to believe or reject, as my question was phrased, then it is God's decision to give you the ability to believe or reject. 2) Believing in the Bible is the equivalent to "trust". When you truly believe Christ, you trust that He already did the "work" so that you don't have to.
So in that case, i.e., the case where God wants you to decide whether to trust that Jesus did the sufficient work for you or not, God still gets glory. In other words, Calvinists are presenting a strawman argument in the "glory" thing. God doesn't lose any glory at all if He wants you to decide.
@@contemplate-Matt.G ofcourse you retract glory from God.
If its Gods decision to give you a choice or not doenst change anything about the fact that what sepparates you from an unbeliever in hell is that you made an autonomous act that causes you to go to heaven and them not.
If Gods grace is equal and the choice for everyone is the same, then the only thing that sepparates you from the other guy is you. So you can boast in your choice to belief. Cause you chose to belief and the other did not. Somehow you apparently were smarter, more humble or whatever that made you make the right choice.
But scipture is clear that faith is of God (ephesians 2:8)
I always fit into a weird category on the Calvinism vs Armenian debate, as I’m somewhere in the middle. I believe some people God gardens their heart and makes it impossible for them to get saved while others he forces to get saved I believe this is a select group that is a small percentage, but it exists. I also believe that most people choose to believe or not.
I don’t understand the totally depraved aspect. I feel like that takes things a step too far. You don’t have to be 100% evil to not get into heaven. You have to be 0% evil and 100% good. So, someone born 1% evil and 99% hood still won’t get into heaven. The 1% makes the 99% useless, sure, but it doesn’t make the 99% evil
As an Arminian, I believe in Total Depravity just as the Calvinists do. Total Depravity does not mean humans beings are all a bunch of hedonists. It can include people seeking to establish their own righteousness. It can also include those who cannot discern spiritual things because the god of this world has blinded them. The bible states that Satan has deceived the whole world. Man is not more powerful than Satan. The doctrine of Total Depravity requires grace to free a person so that they may see the light of the gospel and respond to it . Arminians believe this grace is resistible (prevenient grace) ,while Calvinists believe it is irresistible.
Men has will but the will is not free...
James white would rather be right in this debate than part of the elect
Honestly, James Whites contribution to the Christian faith cant be understated, but it doesnt mean he gets everything right. We need both of these men.
Why would a loving God create people who do not have the ability to live a sinless life and then blame them for sinning. No one is sinless except Christ and God knew no one else would be sinless. I just can’t believe Calvinism is true. If I’m missing something, please let me know.
Hi Gary, regarding your statement "If I’m missing something, please let me know". What you're applying to Calvinism (Reformed theology) is called 'equal ultimacy in double predestination'. In a equal ultimacy, God influences the nonelect to be reprobate unto damnation. Under an equal ultimacy God is active in both salvation and damnation. Calvinism teaches UN-equal ultimacy; God simply passes over the reprobate to leave them in their sin. God is active in salvation, and passive in reprobation. So, the force of what Calvinists are saying is that God has always had an elect people, and since Satan introduced the knowledge of good and evil into the root of the elect (Adam), all sinned and eventually spawned people outside of God's election.
So, then the question becomes does God allow those outside election to become saved? I would say yes, but these don't seem to remain with Christ according to scripture and real-life experiences. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19
I want to thank Jesus Word for your thoughtful reply to my question. I never seriously studied Calvinism but leaned that way until I read, Does God Love Some But Not All by Ronnie W Rodgers. This book opened my eyes. I just can’t believe a loving God would create people that He knew would end up in hell without ever giving them a choice to accept or reject Christ. It would be better for the non-elect to have never been born. I do respect you for the study you have obviously done but I just can’t understand how Calvinism can be reconciled with a God of love.
Jesus' Word , you have misrepresented the Calvinist/reformed perspective.
If Calvinism is true, the eternal state of man is a true dichotomy, the the one choice of choosing the elect, seals the fate of every person that will ever live.
Any selection of groups in a true dichotomy, is a double predetermination, by definition. There is no other option.
If you pick a basketball team from a group of people, there are only 2 catergories. Either you are on the team or you are not on the team. Those you meticulously select, to give you the best chance at winning, to be on the team are on the team. Those you looked over and did not select in that same meticulous decision, also have their fate sealed by the same meticulous decision. Regardless of how meticulous or how random the decision is, the one choice, necessarily seals the fate of everyone.
It’s a true Calvinistic dilemma. They tend to make all kinds of outlandish assertions about secondary causes and compatibilism to try to explain, but it just makes things worse.
Richard Jimenez , if Calvinism is true, they cannot want god in their lives, as god has rendered them incapable of wanting god.
So do you believe God knows the future? If so, you have the same dilemma.
From scripture we know God knows the future, Arminians even agree with that as far as I know. So then you have the same dilemma.
If God knows what you are going to do tomorrow, do you have the free will to do something different?
If you can, his foreknowledge is imperfect, which means he doesn't actually know the future and can make mistakes. AKA He isn't God.
If you can't, then you have the same predicament that you claim Calvinism has.
So take that one step further, does God know who will be saved?
If He knows they won't be saved, do they have the "free will" to be saved anyway? Making Him wrong, and his foreknowledge erroneous?
Arminians, and anyone who believes in the perfect foreknowledge of God has the same problem, not just Calvinists. The difference is, Calvinists can rest on the sovereignty and promises of God. I don't know how an Arminian can answer those questions. In fact, I've asked several, but no one has answered me.
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you,(A) how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,(B) and you were not willing. Matthew 23:37 (God pretending according to Calvinism)
Yeah, who is Christ addressing in the whole chapter? The Jewish leaders. They Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and stoned those sent to you. Those Jewish leaders he calls them Jerusalem. He wanted to gather YOUR children. Who is the personal pronoun your addressing? The same Jewish leaders. And YOU were not willing. Who is that personal pronoun addressing? Again the Jewish leaders. The Jewish leaders wouldn’t let the children be gathered. It is the same thing christ states earlier in the chapter in v13
Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves 👉🏻nor allow those who would enter to go in. 👈🏻
@@jasont5300 excellent response🙏
@@jasont5300 Back in Matthew 12:30 it says that those who are not with Christ are scattering...... That shows the enmity of the leadership of Israel in that wicked generation. It was certainly Christ's will of disposition that He was willing to gather those as a hen gathers her chicks, but He did not decree that they would be gathered that way. What was coming was the judgment of Jerusalem for stoning those sent to them, the filling up of the measure of sin -- that all the blood of Abel forward would be upon that wicked generation.
@@timothykring4772 agreed.
I believe man can't choose God on his own unless God supernaturally intervenes, but I am also convinced that God supernaturally intervenes to give man free choice in the matter. That's why it says "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." ~ Hebrews 3:15b Why would God tell us not to harden our hearts if we have no choice in the matter? When God visits mankind and tells them to repent, we are given a choice. We aren't given this choice all the time. It's a special visitation from God.
Is that Calvinism or Arminianism? I don't know, but I believe God has given everyone enough evidence and opportunity to be saved.
@Herman Wooster - Well said !
I see your Point. But the question i‘‘m making to myself is, if everyone get‘s the same Grace and YOU have to decide only by yourself, why you say yes and the other one say no? Are you smarter? Are you More God fearing? Where your eyes More opend then his? Did you Love God More then him other better saying did you hate God leser then him?
@@Christian.Portugues.Francisco
Repentance is remorse for sins against the Creator.
Dr. White would want to convert the apostle Paul to Calvinism if he had an opportunity 😂
There is no conversion to Calvinism. Paul did not need to be converted of anything he himself taught. 🥳🥳😂😂
Haha
It was Paul who converted Dr White.
@30:25 He gave himself away completely - "Some day I MIGHT be caught up with in the air." He is not even able to say for certain that he is saved. How many verses talk about salvation in the past tense, it always amazes me how Arminian's can see the grammatical tenses and then immediately abandon them for the sake of their argument.
Might here means he doesn't know if he'll be alive or dead when Jesus returns... not if he's saved or not.
Only some if the saved will be "caught up in the air".
@@ravissary79 I’d have to listen to the video again - been a while. Your statement is 100% true.
I believe the reason that there are qualifiers for salvation is simple. They are not because the elect can fall away as Steve asserts. But to give evidence to those who are not in Christ but are really those who are not of us, to identify them. So that those who fall away, or want to twist the scripture & are not the elect can be identified.
The "churches" are full of these very people with itching ears who gather false teaches saying smooth words & fair speeches. Things like; you can be a believer without God choosing you. Someone who conjures up faith without Holy Spirit regeneration, who accepts Christ & prays the sinners prayer, rather than someone the Father draws & gives to the Son.
They are the people who say Lord, Lord, but do not the will of the Father, these lawless ones who Messiah says He never knew. Welcome to the world of self willed "believers" not called of God, but of themselves. Who twist Gods word to their own destruction. The 501c3 churches are full of them. Loud and brash and full of themselves rather than the Holy Spirit.
You have to purposely ignore every logical through line When considering the implications of what Calvinists believe.....
Serious question;
Do THEY Ask these questions to themselves? Because I don't believe they do. It is so logically inconsistent with scripture that it baffles the mind. And so I assume they just focus on specific proof texts and stay there. Never considering the wider implications.
What questions are you wondering if we ask ourselves?
@@TobyTalkless
The obvious consequences to logic in light of scripture.
@TobyTalkless
For instance;
A predestination belief indicates that all those who have suffered Throughout history did so because God willed it. Not only is he now clearly responsible for every horrible act but also for temptation. Violating the scriptures that claim God does not try any one, Nor is he responsible for evil. With predestination he certainly is responsible for both.
@@MultipleGrievance the bible uses the term predestined more than once so your issue is with the text.
@@TobyTalkless
I don't think I do.
There are certainly many things that are predestined from our point of view. All of them have to do with God's will being done. Specifically because he never fails to accomplish it. But that is a far cry from the God of the heavens, controlling every aspect of humanity and the universe.
Every choice you make?
ALL Outcomes??
I don't think the Bible teaches that at all.
Minute 30:20-25 „ I may be“ ? Men if you don’t Know that for sure i would be really conserned… That really made me think about what he is saying.
May the Lord Jesus lead us into all truth in his Holly Word.
When Paul talks about us being in Christ, that’s salvation. Mr. Greg is just actually debating himself because James White more or less is saying the same thing he is that we are in Christ. We are part of Christ body that’s salvation nowhere in a text does it state that the chosen one is Jesus it says God chose us in him. It doesn’t say God chose Jesus and chose us in him. That’s not what the text says. Where is he getting the idea that it say in the text that Jesus was Chosen.
Amen
What do you think? Are those in camp of I CHOSE GOD among those who will say one day: Lord, Lord HAVE WE NOT...?
year 2020: Still listening, reading, studying, and searching about Calvinism and Arminianism. But I still get no answer and still not decided. I don't understand why one is more scriptural than the other. Both principles and teachings are clearly be found in the scripture. Both are claiming that their interpretation is more biblical and more correct than the other. I mean, I don't have problem listening and agreeing to Calvinism or Armenianism, as I have said their arguments are both supported by the word of God (based on the plain meaning of the text).
but the real question is. If someone doesn't agree with Calvinism... is he or she can be saved? When we share the gospel, should we tell people about Calvinism/Arminianism? People like, in Papua New Guinea, Africa, or places that are remote and far away from this kind of thing (study, scholar, theology, exegesis, hermeneutics, history, etc) How would they understand salvation, freewill, sin, predestination, and all this doctrine...? Calvinism/Arminianism doesn't really matter in their salvation. but they must have their own understanding when they read the scripture. Should the Calvinism say they are heretics?
God saved you by his grace when you believed. The difference between synergism and monergism is either God gave you the ability to believe, or your ability to believe came from you. If you believe that faith came from you, then this would be considered a work. A work is defined as any activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. Faith has to originate from God, hence monergism. Faith is presented as a gift from God in 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, and Acts 3:16. If faith came from you would be able to boast. All boasting is eliminated in salvation (cf. Rom. 3:27; 4:5; 1 Cor. 1:31).
@@JesusWordApologetics hm?? before I heard about Calvinism/Arminianism.. I have it already in my heart, that I should believe in Jesus for my salvation, and I did not feel or think that I'm boasting or proud of that. I was thankful actually. before, I was more concerned on how I live my life.. but now, since I got interested about these things, you know, the 'isms' I got more interested about argument, belief, teachings, doctrines etc.
I've read and researched about Calvinism and Arminianism as well as other isms, but I still don't get their points why they have to disagree... as I have said both arguments are supported by the scripture.. I think the differences is in each individuals interpretation, and for me, I don't have problem with any of these two systematic theology since I found these teachings in the bible.
@@joeffreysarita8601 These are merely intra-church discussions. And should never be used as a stick to beat someone over the head with. If you love Jesus and persevere to the end then you are saved. Not by anything you did, but of God and God alone. Thats what I believe, and I don't question if someone's saved or not. Thats up to Jesus.
@@JesusWordApologetics Amen!
Steve Gregg is wonderful.
The story of the potter in Jeremiah 17 disproves Calvinism. The potter wished to make a beautiful vessel but the clay refused. This picturing Israel, God wanted them to be vessels of his mercy but they refused & therefore become vessels of his judgement!
First, it's Jer 18, not 17.
Next, you're adding to the text actions that are not there.
It looks like you've actually missed the point of the whole potter/ clay relationship.
The potter does what he wants with the clay, just as God does what he wants with Israel. How come that's so hard to see?
Ponder this;
The death nil to Arminianism is the doctrine of the neutrality of the will. That's what every Arminian argues for, that man can choose to believe or not believe. But the scriptures nowhere teach the neutrality of the will, only that man's will is corrupt and in bondage to sin.
Besides the scriptures, the greatest anecdotal evidence of this is that NOT ONE SINGLE MAN out of the billions that have ever existed has chosen to obey God perfectly. Not one!
How then could anyone argue that man's will is neutral?
If man's will was neutral, then statics would show close to 50% to choose perfect obedience to God, but 0%?
It's like if someone flipped a coin. The coin is neutral, it doesn't care if it lands on heads or tails. But if you flipped a coin 10 times and it landed on heads each time, what would you think? How about 100xs or 1,000 xs? How about 15 billion times? At some point your going to think something else is at play that you can't see right?
So no, they both can't be right.
@@toddcote4904 you are right it’s chapter 18 but read verse 4, whenever the clay did not take the shape the potter wanted, the clay here clearly can refuse the will of the potter!
@@mthulisidube5502
Where does it say "the clay refused to take the shape the potter wanted"?
It simply says the clay was marred. Are you suggesting the clay marred itself?
Jer 18:4 - And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
Metaphors are used to make a primary point, which you are missing. The point is not that "the clay can refuse the will of the potter" good grief, it's "so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make." The point is God can make another vessel into what He wants using the SAME clay.
Meaning, it's going to go through a transformation process, whether it likes it or not, because the Potter (God) will have a vessel He wants in the end.
@@toddcote4904 that’s exactly the contact of the story, I want you to not sin but you have refused & continue to sin otherwise why is God angry with them, there are doing what he doesn’t want
@@toddcote4904 was it the potters will for the vessel to be marred in his hands?
Debate ends when Gregg speaks here in part 2 (this video). He really says let’s deal with John 6. Then he immediately leaves the context of the scripture and starts reading from John 17 which is a different context. Wow. You can even hear the trepidation, nervous exhales and insecurities in his voice. He knows the wheels have come off. How can a Bible teacher refuse to explain a specific passage of scripture like this??? That was the end.
He was answering a question that James asked about God wanting to save someone and then not being saved. He referenced a Bible passage to demonstrate that. That's running away? Really?
Yep. Synergists always have the wheels fall off. Their desire to elevate man to an autonomous being is their downfall. Simple fact is that libertarian free will is unbiblical and illogical. Biblical free will is the ability to choose what is in line with your nature, what you desire most. Apart from God, no man chooses the ways of God. We aren’t robots, but we also aren’t autonomous sovereigns that can determine the actions and plans of God. Calvinism clearly adheres to biblical teachings, that God ordains all things to pass and uses the free choices of men to accomplish these goals. All synergists have are straw men and mischaracterizations to try and straw man their point.
I don't believe you know God as Gregg does . Only as calvin has indoctrinated you too
According to Mr. Greg, the only ones that can have salvation are Jews, because Gentiles weren’t worshipers of God
JW: I don't do philosophy
Also JW: Let me make a bunch of philosophical arguments for my positions....
Libertarian Free will is unbiblical and illogical. As Edwards clearly stated, we have the freedom to choose what is in line with our nature, what we desire most. And the Bible is crystal clear that apart from God, we will never choose the things of God. God ordains all things to pass and uses the free choices of men to accomplish those things. God is not limited to the same constraints that we are, He is above us. Creatures and the Creator. Human responsibility and God’s sovereign decree are both clear in scripture and only reformed theology does justice to these clear teachings. Man centered vs God centered. Monergism vs Synergism. One elevates man to an unbiblical level that makes God dependent on the actions and choices of men, the other recognizes that God is dependent on no man. The Bible is clear that God chose us. We can only choose Him based on the action and love of God first choosing us. Denying this is such an arrogant and unbiblical view
Like white you are biblically wrong
Edward's was a SINNER too . Maybe he was a sinner in the hands of a ANGRY God and saw God differently as a RELIGIOUS person like calvin
Has anyone else noted that James White here is basically reprising the attitude and form of the Synod of Dort's reactions to the ancient Arminians? He dismisses them. He wants them to make a positive statement of what they believe. He wants them to not debate the flaws of Calvinism... it is literally the same objections they raised then. Yet just as they did, he misdirects, he misrepresents scripture, he lies, he uses snuck premises and many other underhanded tools to keep Mr Gregg from being able to actually communicate his views.
You are a very good Pharisee Mr White. Worthy of Sanhedrin I'd say.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
@@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool Interesting. When does it come about? Also, what does this have to do with the debate? Are you comparing this prayer to Arminianism?
$120,000 just to pay the bills for the narrow path radio show and this was years ago.
Gregg mopped the floor with White on John 6. He used the book of John to interpret the book of John in regards to who those given to Jesus by the Father were. White's accusation that Gregg somehow failed by giving a big picture view rather than an isolated step-by-step exegisis (and ignoring other relevant passages) is stupid.
Amen, so true.
It's all about God and nothing about white and the calvinists
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Doesn’t Nicolas of Antioch from acts 6, someone respected and full of the spirit. Who became the father of a the false teachings of nicolaitans, referenced negatively in the book revolution. Show someone truly saved in Christ who decided to reject the faith? Contradicting the Calvinist teaching?
Acts 6:5 "This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, as well as Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism." It is only Stephen who was described as full of faith and of the Holy Spirit. Others were chosen for ministry but we don't see any reference to their character.
I agree with you sir, indeed it does
The exact nature of the Nicolatians is larger unknown. I don’t think this is a correct link. Your view of Calvinism, I’m in agreement
Joshua 24:15…explain?
It could be to identify who are the true Israelites at that time. This was revealed even more in the New Testament (Jn. 1: 47, Rom. 9: 6, and Rev. 3: 9) God indeed knows from eternity past those who are truly His even from among ethnic Israel.
Human freedom and the sovereignty of God aren’t a problem for Calvinists. God sovereignly decrees all things to pass and uses the free choices of the creatures to accomplish those decrees. The problem is the unbiblical view of “libertarian free will” which doesn’t exist. People are free to choose that which is in line with their nature, to choose what they want most, and apart from God, they don’t want the things of God. That is biblical free will. Not this idea that creatures can choose arbitrarily, against their will or the will of God. That is a humanistic, philosophical and frankly illogical concept.
How can you not here the scriptural consistency and beautiful message of Gods character, that white is talking about, Gregg almost stays away from the scriptures entirely uses human charachteristics to make his arguments.
You will never escape accountability for your own sins. That's beautiful.
God's character?
The god you guys believe in is a monster.
White, again, shoots himself in the foot when he points out the distinction in John 17 between those given to Jesus by The Father (i.e. the apostles) and those who will believe because of the word of the apostles. By doing this White is actually conceding that there are 2 groups: 1 specially handed over from the Father to Jesus (i.e. the apostles), and one that simply come to believe in an ordinary way (by hearing the word of the apostles). This distinction undermines White's position that every believer is irresistably handed to Jesus by The Father.
Now, God calls all men everywhere to repent (even Calvinists).
They don't have to " Repent ". Like Abraham in the OT God IMPUTED His righteous in to the calvinists BEFORE He created the earth
If calvanism is true we are saved by grace through God's election, instead of being saved by grace through faith right? That seems problematic but I am still sorting it all out.
There are so many logical fallacies in Calvinism that you can't keep track of them all. For example, Calvinism attributes all of Man's behavior to God himself, meaning God is the only true actor. If that is the case, then Man is really God and Satan is none other than God playing a role directed by HIM. And if that is true, then God is punishing himself, abhorring himself, and rejecting himself.
John 3:3-5 you must be born again and this is the work of GOD alone bec man have no ability to receive gift without regeneration or born in spirit.The Spirit should dwell first in man before he receive the gifts..1cor 2:14-15. Eph 2:8-9 Grace faith salvation is a gift from God not the work of man so no one may boast,,James 1:17 all good gifts and perfect gifts is from GOD
God chooses ends, but that doesn't deny the necessity of means. Imagine you turned on a lamp, and I asked, "Why is the lamp on?" Suppose you said "So that I can read a book" and I responded that the lamp was actually on because electricity is flowing through the wires causing the filament to emit light. It's obvious here that we are both correct, but I wouldn't be seeing the full picture.
Reading a book is the end, but having electricity flow through the bulb is a means. Likewise, God's election is the ultimate reason why someone is saved, but this doesn't deny the fact that God uses a means (faith) to accomplish it in order to glorify Himself. God decided that the granting of faith would be the means of salvation. I hope this answer helped.
Yes you get it. Election is grace. Good job.
@@PETERJOHN101how dumb
Its so sad how they dont see Gods live
Who is the " they ". Are calvinists the ONLY "elect ". Are they " born again "? If so WHEN ? Before or after NATURAL both?
Calvinism= "When being better than everyone else ain't good enough"
James stop on I feel sorry Arminianisms how sad to think you have more to do than God and yous will is stronger than He’s 😢
Nice strawman argument. No, we believe God's will was to grant man a free will. God's will is superior to ours, but we still have one.
Gregg is Warriors n JW is Clippers lol 😂
Dr White states that God is soveign and His will is always done. How would he explain 2 Peter 3:9 then? If God's will is that none would perish, but everyone to come to repentence, and His will cannot be thwarted, then it would stand to reason that all men will come to repentence and be saved, wouldn't it?
The subject of the passage is not salvation but the second coming of Christ. Peter is explaining the reason for the delay in Christ’s second coming. He is still coming and will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night (v. 10). What your saying is that salvation is dependent on human action, and not the will of God.
To whom did Peter write his letters? Peter wrote his letters to the elect, 2 Peter 3:9 is to the elect
@@lesleybonyo8408
Is what you're saying that it's God's will for most to perish, just not the Elect? Seriously?
@@PETERJOHN101I was explaining the context of the verse which you don't want to acknowledge, what you've written is your own conclusion from my reply. Also, God does not owe anyone salvation. All men have sinned and deserve God's wrath. But God displays His love towards us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for the ungodly. Whoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life 🙌🏿
Please read 2 Peter in it's context. Who is Peter speaking to?
Steve Gregg's theology is terrible. I watched his debate with the SDA, and he lost that debate terribly. And not because SDA is right, but Steve Gregg's theology is wrong
Nah
And how so? He’s not a Calvinist who follows Calvin so I’d say it’s pretty good. Like really name at least ONE thing if you’re going to say something like this.
If Gregg’s theology is bad, then imagine the unbiblical doctrines of James White. The philosophical fallacies Calvin has about the text are the reason Calvinist read the Bible in a Calvinistic way. No one read the Bible like Calvinist before John Calvin.
@@Solideogloria00 Your response just sound’s angry because you know you cannot refute James whites teaching that’s why you made the angry comment, but will pray for you🙏
@@carolwilliams383 Why then do we find nearly every book written God says 'if you would only...' 'then I would....' If you do not....' 'Then I will....' Why would God want robots? Would you desire your husband to 'have' to love you or 'desire' to love you? We are made in God's image...we are rebellious to want our own way. God is trying to humble us, make us as Himself. Those that refuse to, will not walk with Him in the last day. Be careful to heed the warnings '...run this race to the end.' That's why no one knows their final fate until that fateful end. It would be presumptuous to think we know beyond any douobt what God will or will not do. We barely know our motives....only God does and He deals with each of us to bring us closer to Him. It most definitely is a choice we make to deny self and pick up His cross and follow Him, or to turn our backs on His Way, Truth and Life. God bless and keep you and all near to Him as we seek after Him with all of our hearts, minds and souls
Greg tap dances scripture better than anyone I seen.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 The believing is active. Everyone who is believing in him will not perish. This is how the literal translation is written. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have continuous life.
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
I agree we must repent, but God is the one who grants repentance because our fallen nature is so fallen to repent.
Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgivenes
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
2 Timothy 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The all in 2 Peter 3:9 are the elect. If God is waiting for every individual, then everyone would be saved. God also foreknows all things, and he knows who are his.
Anyway, the best soteriological verse on how salvation works are these.
Romans 8:29-30
29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers; 30 and those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified.
God does all the action, and man receives it. If God does these things for THOSE, then he obviously doesn't do it for OTHERS. The THOSE are his elect. If God did this for everyone, then everyone at one point would have been a believer. Since you can't lose your salvation, they also would have been saved forever. Even if you think they can lose their salvation, they still at one point would have believed for some time, which we know is not the case for all unbelievers. We just have to accept that we play no role in our salvation, and the glory goes to God alone. @refrigeratorinthewinter138
1:45 JW and other Calvinist literally make millions from "being Calvinist". This statement is ridiculous. It is literally the Gospel to many of his followers who buy his books. The spice definitely flows within house Calvin...
Anyone who is as well known as JW who makes a money claim about “how there’s no money in it” I roll my eyes. There’s plenty of money in ministry once you get to his level
Poor Arminians. But, many/most times the elect sons of God learned the pernicious ways of the lovers of self (Arminians) before the Light of the glorious gospel of grace brought us out of darkness.
Now, having been given seeing eyes by the Spirit of Truth, we can pray for the unregenerates, that He will have mercy on them as He did us.
It's ridiculous to suggest these people aren't saved, it's not the gospel plus calvinism that saves, it's the gospel alone!
Dr. White does a fantastic job of doing a terrible job of exegesis.
Can u be more specific?
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
@@Dei-gratia9498☕️
It’s just odd how White looks at Gods sovereignty working with free will. Surely God chose certain men to be used knowing how they would respond had God put certain means in their path. I mean did God put it into the hearts of the Jews to kill Jesus? No, but God did send Jesus into the world in a specific way where it would cause them to stumble over the rock. And it’s the same with all God’s plans when He works with the free will of mankind.
Even with Joseph’s brothers, God didn’t make them hate Joseph directly, but he knew if he gave Joseph a certain dream where Josep will rule over his brothers then they’d hate him because of that and other reasons. But it’s not that God put that hate directly into their hearts, but rather God used a specific means to accomplish His will within that situation. And of course that was all planned to happen from eternity past. God has planned all things from eternity and how He would accomplish His will in all things.
He chose the Pharaoh to enslave Gods people, He then chose Moses to rescue them and God planned, from eternity, through specific means, to harden pharaoh’s heart so as to finish His will with him. It’s the same with the gospel as God planned from eternity to being Christ into this world as He did, and to have Him die as He did, and to have Him rise from the dead as He did, and God knew by bringing all these things about in the exact why He did many would willingly chose to believe and many would not chose..
How does God accomplish His will where many would believe as a sure thing? That many would chose faith in Christ without being controlled? It’s through His sovereignty within His planning.
The gospel has never been just “possible” in relation to man’s free will, but rather it has always been a sure thing.
Calvinism denies Gods ability to be God in my opinion. It’s like unless Gods a puppeteer, he can’t accomplish his will.
Except man is a slave to sin and dead in sin, though man is physically alive. God has made man and maintains man as able to make choices according to his (man's) will . Man is not able to choose and do anything he can imagine, but only what is within the parameters that God sets .
@@timothykring4772 yeah in your opinion. But that is no more than just your interpretation of what it means to be dead in sin. That’s an interpretation … held by many men and yet not not held by many others
@@jayman1338 my opinion ?? No, the Scriptures uses the words ' at enmity ' with God -- the English translation of the state of being actively opposed, hostile toward , and an enemy of God . That opposition is not my opinion, that opposition is what God has said in His Word .
@@timothykring4772 have a good day
The Greek word is ' echthra ' which comes to the English as ' at enmity. '
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
The fallacies of Calvinism are many (and ever growing). Here are just a few...
1) Calvinism, by attributing the fallen state of Man to God, impugns the stated character of God in scripture
>> Psalm 5:4,5 and Hosea 9:15 show that God cannot be the causative agent for sin. In the Hosea passage, he invites the sinner to discuss his sins with God, a non sequitur if his sins are predetermined.
2) Calvinism says the Armenialist view forces God to react to the capricious behavior of his creatures
>> The Calvinist view that God predetermines the damnation of the majority attributes capriciousness to God himself.
3) Calvinism posits that God saves a minority because the destruction of the majority affords him the greatest glory
>> Proverbs 11:1 states that God abhors an imbalanced scale, meaning he only loves an equal balance. If God were responsible for the sins of the world, he would therefore proportion his salvation to mankind equally. According to Jesus in Matthew 7:13,14, such balance is not the case.
There are dozens more, like rabbits multiplying in a Spring garden.
Hope you learn Calvinism. You should take the time to study it. 1) No actual calvinist would ever say that. 2) Yes God predetermines who He will save and those He will not. Just because that doesn’t seem fair doesn’t mean you can just not accept the clear Biblical teaching of its. 3) Again don’t say calvinists believe what you think they believe. Study the text.
Copy and paste, is a fraud.
Steve’s purpose in life is to try and poke holes in the Calvinist point of view, and Rarely, if ever, defends his position; must be indefensible.
FALSE! Steve has been teaching through the entire Bible since the 1970's. He teaches Jesus; Calvinism is merely one of many side issues.
@@SgtRock1985 I’ve come to the conclusion very recently that a persons viewpoint on pre/post, dispensation, Calvinism or not lead a person to have very strong ideas about faith, Israel, .. salvation.
It’s nots not just a point of view anymore it’s truth versus lie at its core.
So, are we drawn, or are we compelled? C'mon, doctor White, really?🤣🤣
This man Jame white , is so off base , we must use all scripture to come to truth. Regardless of any teaching of man, we were created to be free moral Agents. And God respects our will, and his is grieve when we don’t accept his will, but he will not force him self on anyone. It’s about choices, choices, choices ! lets real all scriptures, and God will reveal his truth through his word and his spirit...Calvinism is a damnable teaching.
And what does scripture tell us about female pastors? 🙃
Sarah, that was a great comment.
Your title speaks volumes
@@sarahd5341 we women are gullible.
Gregg's been married 5 or 6 times. For an uneducated guy he's good at teaching but he misrepresents Calvinism and for that, you can find someone better.
You’re a guy who doesn’t know a thing about Steve Gregg. You make personal attacks that are, at best misleading, and that’s being generous. Yet you have not one critique of the facts that Steve’s mentioned.
And I would love to hear from you, what makes a person “educated” ? I assume a degree.
What a fool. Not even White would have stooped to calling Steve uneducated. If Steve is uneducated then James White had all he could handle from an uneducated man.
And for your information Steve is married to a wonderful Godly woman. Two of his former wives ‘left him’ and their kids because they wanted a life apparently apart from him and God. And another was killed by a truck….( saving a child in the process).
Time will tell if you have the guts to apologize.
I don't know Mr Gregg well, only from this debate, but Ad Homanim is never a good argument.
That is a mismatch of topics like no other. I would love to hear you debate anything 😅😅😅
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
Calvinist are so wrong
And Calvinism destroys true knowledge. In a Calvinist/determinist world God has ordained all things, including your thoughts, investigations, research and the conclusions you will arrive at. So no matter what, you will believe what God has programmed you to believe. Even going to the Bible means nothing in a Calvinist world since God has decreed that you believe a certain way when you read a certain text.
There’s not knowledge in Calvinism, not peace. It’s an evil man made system.
Imagine calling yourself a Bible teacher and being wrong. Are these people not crippled with the fear of lying about God?
Imagine thinking that a pastor is right about everything -_-
@@Etheralking what a tough life you must have using such a simple, undeveloped mind.
@@ratedrreformed8452 Yes, I am a fool in this world, wise one.
@@Etheralking yeah, I know
@@ratedrreformed8452 God bless you man
lets go ahead and skip the part where James BLACK DEATH is speaking and lets go only to truth and humility where a person with grace and mercy longsuffering and kindness talks and that is not James White he is uncapable of kind patience and fear of God and humility so lets go onto the people of God and ignore the wolves in sheep clothing please LOL what a scritch continue Steve as you were you actual Cristian who actually love your enemies as your Christ does and stop listening to the demons around us like Cain and Esau and Pharaoh and Hitler and James fucking not so White as snow
Pray God will grant you repentance
This is a violation of Jesus's commandments. There is no love in that statement
I was a synergist most of my life. Then, I actually started reading scripture to understand the essence of our Lord. I started doing word and grammatical studies of scripture, and came to see that the bible is 100% monergistic. The thing that has struck me the most, aside from, now I understand the bible, was the the new peace I had in my heart for the love God has for His own. It was truly humbling.
There is not a single verse that supports pre-faith regeneration, the divines decrees and many other central teachings of Calvinism.
@@felixguerrero6062 you must not be reading your bible than.
@@Tom-fh9rb Hi, would you mind giving just one bible verse that proves to you that faith precedes regeneration?
I was opposite, I came to understand calvinism is false
@@n.e.parkman2326 Colossians 2:12
Brother steve Gregg said God chooses people to believe from the believer who already worship God. (Minute 14:55) It does not making any sense. How about the apostle paul. He was a murderer and the prosecutor of the church of God yet God chose him to be His apostle for the gentile.
Tq and God Bless
I was an arminian before but I came to see the Faulty and wrong understanding of the Arminians when it Comes to the sovereignty of God and salvation of man.
God is Sovereign. He knows the past, the present, and the future. No one and nothing escapes his Will. God is absolutely sovereign, and God gave him limited freedom.
Amen, brother!
Well done! James R White sound biblical truth, clear explanations, plenty of quotes, nice! Steve Gregg... not so much.
Good job mr. White !
First of all if they were already of Gods people they wouldn’t have executed him
I'm saved : )
Gregg does great! I enjoy Dr White but Steve Gregg is really bringing some strong points.
Jorge Anido are hou serious? he's destroying everytext. he's imposing his theology into the text not doing exegesis.
R. Joël Guzman-Quispe I'm with Gregg because if the average person reads scripture, most will walk away with the understanding that humans have free will and we are responsible in our decision making. It's not about glorifying man above God in soteriological framework, it's about recognizing how God is glorified in our response of faith. There is no glory retracted from God because responding in faith is how a person is saved (Eph.2:9). It is not considered a"work" as the latter half of 2:9 explains, thus there is no boasting, hence no elevation in man status above God.
Sorry, but how do you read passages such as Ephesians 1:3-6, *Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved* God is the progenitor of our salvation, and I'm very thankful it wasn't left to me. God bless!
Jesus' Word I understand this passage (Ep. 1) to reveal the spiritual blessings to believers. "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him in love" (v.4). The "us" refers to the group of election, (i.e., believers, those saved) who place their trust in Him (cf. vv. 13, 14).
He has predestined this group (those who would believe) would receive adoption to sonship because He made us to be accepted "in Him" (v.6).
There are no problems for the Armenean thinker here. It fits perfectly in the salvific trajectory presented in the whole of Scripture. Ep. 1:11, 12 speaks of the glory rendered to God as free agents of will "trust in Him."
No Armenean or non-Calvinist I know seek to elevate man over God in salvation. They (including myself) desire to exposit the meaning from the text and apply it to their lives as do Calvinists. We may differ on interpretation but we both strive for truth.
Just like James White, you miss the context of the phrase "in Him" which is typical of Calvinist's who only see what they want to see. This is what clarifies what these and many other verses means.
I wonder what anyone has to say on this question.
Does the Devil believe that God is a Calvinist? The devil believes in free will!!! and rightly so. What was he doing when he asked God about torturing Job.... did he honestly believe that there was any way Job would curse God? And did God agree to what the Devil proposes knowing that he would win the argument based on him (Job) not being allowed to answer for himself? Or was he glorified through the choices Job makes because of his love and fear of God?
If we say that he had free will then it makes sense. If we say that Job was preprogrammed in the way Calvinism proposes and the Devil knew this, then he is seen tricking God into allowing torture onto Job.
STEELSKI, it always amazes me the level of ignorance Arminians use to contort what Calvinists believe. I'm not really sure why Arminians care so much, but they do. They will say things such as "Does the Devil believe that God is a Calvinist?" First, Calvinism doesn't deny free-will, instead it denies the autonomous free-will of man in salvation. Calvinism believes that God at every turn imputes grace; then we are called at some point in our lives (predestination), then justified, and then glorified. All this to be conformed to image that is Christ. We see this in Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
What is the story of Job about? We see in Ezekiel 14:14, "though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, says the Lord Yahweh." Then again in Ezekiel 14:20, "though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, says the Lord Yahweh, they should deliver neither son nor daughter; they should but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." So what was the purpose of Job's trials? We see in James 5:10-12, As an example, brethren (the same brethren found in Rom. 8:29), of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful. But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and you’re no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.
Your statement: "The devil believes in free will!!! and rightly so." Wow. You use Satan to back up your argument of free-will? Satan had no free-will to overcome Job, only that to which the Lord allowed him to do. We see this in Job 1:@1, Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. Arminians deny the sovereignty of God, never taking into consideration the primary and secondary causation of theodicy.
So the devil had no free will, and nor did Job. So God let Satan torture Job at the suggestion of the devil. That makes perfect sense.
I do not think you understand that Arminians also say that God is Sovereign, They proclaim that God can do anything. Calvinists say that God must control everything, and leave out the bit about him that should say "if he chooses to"
STEELSKI *Your statement:* So the devil had no free will, and nor did Job. So God let Satan torture Job at the suggestion of the devil. That makes perfect sense.
*My reply:* The soteriological argument isn’t if you, or I, are going eat Cheerio’s tomorrow morning or possibly choose Cornflakes. The soteriological issue is; does the agent actually have libertarian free will to choose in some nebulas synergistic way to work with God in election, or are we elected by God from the beginning? The bible states that you are God’s elect from the beginning as we see in Romans 8:28-30, “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Men have deceived you to believe the issue is over free-will when it’s not. Again, in Romans 9:23, “What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.” So can a person somehow achieve salvation by their own fruition? Again, Romans 8:5-8 states no: “For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, *because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God*.” The Arminian view is by works you can synergistically achieve peace with God through your own fruition.
*Your statement:* I do not think you understand that Arminians also say that God is Sovereign, They proclaim that God can do anything. Calvinists say that God must control everything, and leave out the bit about him that should say "if he chooses to"
*My reply:* What nonsense have you been taught? Who has taught you that God doesn’t have complete control over His creation? You simple look at passages of judgement and confuse this with salvation. Have you ever noticed that these “choice” passages are directed at the ones being judged. And that they never do turn away from their sins. Let’s look at Romans 9:6-13, “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, *not because of works but because of him who calls*-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Let’s look at some of those beloved choice passages that Arminians love to throw out. Joshua 24:15 “And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve…” Did the Arminian happen to read the rest of the verse? “whether the gods which your fathers served (Egyptian gods) which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites (Amorite gods) in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." The people answered and said, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods” The choice being spoken of here was between the Egyptian gods and the Amorite gods. What does it say in Judges 6:10, regarding this passage: “I said to you, 'I am the LORD your God; do not worship the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you live.' But you have not listened to me." No. The non-elect never do listen to God, because they are not of God.
*****, correct. And when did I state otherwise? Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
***** Easy does it my Calvinist brother. Please make sure that you use a tone of grace with those you disagree with. As a doctrines of grace guy, I have found it unnerving sometimes to see Calvinists blast away those less enlightened by God's grace. Grace and truth in love brother, that's what we must be about. I was very turned off by Calvinists at my first encounter until God so fully convinced me of these blessed doctrines because of their arrogance and need to feel right. Understand that those you argue against are people first before they are theologians. That said, you were pretty much on point in your rebuttal =)
Do Arminians see themselves as nondenominational? Because In a Gregg vs Staples debate, he never mentioned this religion. And at the beginning of part 1 he kinda shied away from it too... But now he's like we arminians ...does anyone know?
I guess we will know for sure when we see God.
The bible says Jesus draws all men to him. John 12:32: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” But not everyone believes. 1 Timothy 4:10: "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, ESPECIALLY of those who believe." 1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
It may be true that we cannot seek God on our own, but God draws all men to him. Because of this, we have the ability to accept or reject him. To say Jesus didn't die for everyone, and that he only draws some and not others is rejecting the true gospel in favor of some man made theology.
Hi John, and God bless brother. Phrases such as “the world,” “all men,” “all nations,” “every creature,” and "whosoever/whoever"was used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct the false notion within the Jewish community that salvation was for the Jews alone. These expressions were intended to show that Christ died for all men without distinction (i.e., he died for Jews and Gentiles alike), but these phrases are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception (i.e., he did not die for the purpose of saving every unbeliever). The problem; If Christ died for all men without exception, and unbelief being a sin, then Christ's blood was also a propitiation for the sin of unbelief. Therefore, unbelievers would escape the wrath of God.
Jesus' Word How would you explain 1 Timothy 4:10, which says he's the savior of all, especially to those who believe? In this verse, Paul makes a clear distinction between non-believers and believers, and that Jesus is the savior of both. Whether "all" means "all without distinction" or if it means every single person on earth doesn't really make a difference here, since he includes both saved and unsaved. Ultimately, the only people who will be saved because of his sacrifice are the elect who trust in him. There's a difference in saying "Jesus saves everyone" and "Jesus is the savior of everyone." Christ has to be the savior of everyone (both believers and non believers) since there is no other way for people to be saved. Can non-believers be saved some other way? No. So that automatically makes Christ their savior whether they accept him or not. The same way the President of the United States is the president whether someone supports him or not. Either way, it doesn't changed the fact that he is the president of every U.S. citizen
Jesus' Word very well worded response. Concise and cogent. Well done.
Hey, brother bets. Sorry, I didn't get to this sooner, but I never got a notification of your post. Your assertions are: The bible says Jesus draws all men to him [then include the following bible verses]. Let's go through them and if there are any issues.
John 12:32: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” But not everyone believes.
*Reply to John **12:32* Are you saying that this drawing is effectual? That God effected these people to draw them to Himself? That would be against man's autonomous free-will.
*Reply to 1 Timothy **4:10* many Universalists interpret the phrase that God is “the Savior of all people” to mean that all will be saved. This is contrary to all sound doctrine and, in fact, has always been viewed as heresy by the Church. The proponents of this idea emphasize the love of God as God’s chief and most important attribute, to the exclusion of all others, such as His holiness and His justice. This heresy is very easily refuted because the Bible makes it very clear that some people will end up in hell, forever. (Rev 14: 9-11; 20:15; Matt 5: 21-22, 27-30; 23: 15, 33; 25: 41, 46).
*Reply to 1 John 2:2* Let's look at John 11:51-52, Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one.
So, 1 John 2:2 should be read with the understanding that it is talking about "The whole world" means "people of all kinds, including Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, and anyone else". And this is in direct context with "ours only" i.e., the Jewish nation. So, 1 John 2:2 should be read as: He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins [Jewish Nation], and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world [every nation, tribe, people and language, Rev 7:9].
We see 1 John 2:2 reiterated in John 11:51-52, Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one.
Have you ever thought through the concept of universal atonement? What is a propitiation? The word propitiation (n) from Late Latin propitiationem (nominative propitiatio) "an atonement," noun of action from past participle stem of Latin propitiare "to appease." What your saying is Christs blood was a propitiation (appeased God's wrath) for unbelievers, haters of Jesus. Jesus' blood removed the sin of unbelief for everyone including Judas, Pilot, Satan...??????????????? Please explain.
Jesus' Word no worries. Just to be clear, we both agree that not everyone is going to be saved by Christ's sacrifice, and that's not what I'm trying to say. But I don't see how that necessarily changes the fact that Christ died for everyone and not just certain people. He died for everyone in the sense that he bore God's wrath on all mankind, and by doing that, everyone has access to salvation through his shed blood. Therefore, Christ is the savior of all men. I'm not a Universalist, but I also don't believe in limited atonement. I believe it is a false dichotomy to say I must be one or the other. Christ satisfied the wrath of God for every single person, but if someone does not believe in Christ and accept this gift, they will not benefit from it. I think of it this way; if someone buys me a plane ticket to a vacation destination as a gift, my plane ticket is paid for. All I have to do is board the plane to get there. But if I don't get on the plane, I will not benefit from the gift and I remain where I am, never arriving to the destination. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that my ticket is paid for. Similarly, Christ was the propitiation for my sins and all of mankind's sins, and God's wrath was satisfied when he was sacrificed. But does it end there with everyone's sins automatically covered? No, Jesus tells us we only have to do one thing, believe in him for eternal life.
How would you explain 2 Peter 2:1: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." Would you say that these false prophets who deny Christ are saved? If they are not, how could these people have been bought?
I just listened to the whole debate again, and didn't hear once where Dr. White misquoted John 6:44. Please give a time marker in the audio. I did hear him quoting from John 6:37-40, where it states " *All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out*. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. *This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day*. “For this is the will of My Father, that *everyone* who beholds ["that belongs to"] the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
You are bias against Steve and showed favor to Dr. James White. You honor him because of his caliber who visits your show. You need to be neutral.
How so?
This is actually a recording from The Narrow Path radio program. The host of that program was actually Steve Gregg. So what you are saying here seems to be that Steve Gregg is biased toward himself and against James White. Better would be to listen to the two men. Particularly whose points are most closely connected to scripture. Rather than trying to decide who won a non-competitive debate on the radio program of one of the two debaters.
Gregg makes some stretches of who he "could" be talking about in ephesians 1. This is a guess and not supported by the text.
Steve Gregg constantly elevates man and attempts to bring down God to mans level constantly.....
your comments are the typical, straw-man tactics that mis-characterize his and many non-Calvinists intentions.
How is he elevating man and bringing God down? If God wants man to have a free will of his own, then guess what? God gets what he wants and man has a free will of his own. If anything, Calvinists are the ones who bring God down and elevate man, because they act like they are so intellectually superior that they even understand the mind of God. They limit God's power by believing that he can't give man any free will if he wants to
Well said. I never understood this nonsensical/irrational stance Calvinists take. The Logic doesn't follow.
You have too much calvin religion in as white does. " you must be born again ".
How were OT saints able to "Have Faith" without the NT work of regeneration that Calvinst depend upon to "Not be dead"???
Hey Dan, good question. From a biblical view It has always been by God; regeneration prior to faith. "...in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."--Gal 3:14, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." --Gal 3:29.
The church didn't start at Pentecost, but rather consists of the whole number of the elect, which were purchased for God with Christ's blood [Dan 3:4; 5:19; Rev 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15] from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, all true believers for all time. God bless!
Jesus' Word - thanks for the reply...being reformed for 27 years, I get that the church is all Abraham’s seed. But you didn’t answer my question. How are OT saints able to have saving faith without the promise of Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant promise of the i dwelling HS. Calvinist insist on regen by the HS before faith. The OT, and Hebrews 11 seems to credit the OT saints with faith first, and how that moved God.
Great question Dan, clearly the Old Testament taught from start to finish that God had chosen a remnant within the physical decedents of Abraham. We see in Ezekiel 36:26,27, "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
The Spirit has been active since creation. Deut 30:36 when YHWH is speaking to the Jews says: "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."
The OT Jew's resisted the Holy Spirit as we see in Stephan's plead in Acts 7:51, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."
Daniel R I don’t believe that people before Christ was able to enter into heaven and once Christ was crucified and more important resurrected they are able to leave a so called purgatory
Read Hebrews about Abraham
A Christian can fall, but he can never fall away all the way. John 10.28 says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). An Arminian is once-saved-always-saved. Jacob Arminius said never once did he ever say a person who was saved could lose salvation. Therefore, Steve Gregg is both an Open Theist and a Remonstrant. He is not an OSAS Arminian.
Steve Gregg , you did a great job explaining the " Chosen in Christ " verses , the only thing I would differ on is that we are , present tense , seated with Christ but not physically as you said but spiritually it is a present reality .
Dr. White tore to shreds all of Gregg's premises. the bottom line is that TULIP is totally scriptural and that of those arguing for mans free will over that of God's at least in his salvation is heresy.
Election and Pre destination Is Rejected because man wants credit and glory in the matter!! Election in fact originated With God before the foundation of the world,Then was picked up an introduced to the early Christians by Paul By Revelation OF GOD!!NOT MAN!! Both Pre destination..and Election Are not man made DOCTRINES.. Although man corrupted the Doctrines! Nevertheless All of God's Council Shall Stand And He Will do all of His Good Pleasure!
Nah
I get a lot of questions regarding Israel, and if Calvinism is true, then why does Jesus plead with Israel to turn and they would be healed? Also, how are the Jews saved if Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? Later question first:
Clearly the Old Testament taught from start to finish that God had chosen a remnant within the physical decedents of Abraham. That regeneration took place prior to our faith even during the OT times. We see in Ezekiel 36:26,27, "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
The Spirit has been active since creation. We see in Deut. 30:36, Jesus says: "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."
The OT Jew's resisted the Holy Spirit as we see in Stephan's condemnation of the Jews to the Sanhedrin in Acts 7:51, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." This is why Jesus pleads with His people throughout the OT. He's not saying if the Jews would just choose Him, then synergistically He can now save them. No. Jesus is speaking to the elect (the already chosen) of Israel. We see why Jesus is pleading with Jews to repent, because Jesus gives those who don't repent over to Satan. We see this in 1 Corinthians 5:5, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. Jesus is ending their lives so that they cannot do any further eternal damage with regards to their salvation.
Jesus' Word wrong. 1 Corinthians 5 is a text written TO believers. The Pharisees you cited were never believers or followers of Jesus -- that never had faith in Him. You're viewing scripture through a lens that you've been told to view it through. Jesus wanted all of Jerusalem to be saved but THEY WOULD NOT COME. This has NOTHING to do with delivering a brother to Satan for correction.
“"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!”
Matthew 23:37 ESV
You are so infatuated with listening to high-class Calvinists that you can't read the scriptures for yourself. Your mixing of 1 Corinthians 5 to apply to unbelievers is proof of that.
Aaron Kulukjian would I have gathered YOUR CHILDREN. He’s speaking to the city collectively and lamenting the unwillingness of the stiff necked of letting him gather his sheep
Steve greggs argumentation clearly Shows he has wrong understanding of the scriptures he has cited to Support his untenable position.
Nah
Steve Greg is an open-theist, open theism rejects God’s omnipotence and replaces it with something called "omnicompetence." In an ironic move from Arminians, who decry Calvinistic determinism as God creating pre-programmed automatons, the open theists are quite comfortable with the figure of God as a chess player who is able by his "omnicompetence" to outmanoeuvre his opponents and so, despite setbacks along the way, finally checkmate his adversaries and accomplish his goals.
God, as a maximally great being would only permit (or risk) evil with morally sufficient reasons in the form of compensating goods, and that if indeterminism is true, at least some evil results from the misuse of libertarian free will alone, serving no other good purpose. It follows that unless libertarian free will is itself a necessary safeguard of moral responsibility or something very much like it, God would not commit to it with its attached price tag of otherwise purposeless evil. Arminian's cannot account for the purposeless evil derived from their paradoxical argument. The words "mysterious synergy" was simply used as an anthropomorphic explanation of the mystery of how God's knowledge and His will interacts with man. Your statement is red herring in that you state "Either God allows men freedom to make moral choices or he doesn’t." A straightforward deductive argument for the Calvinist determinist view would go as follows:
(1) God only ever permits (or risks) the existence of evil when He has sufficient reasons in the form of compensating goods.
(2) If God leaves human choices undetermined, the world contains (or has been risked to contain) at least some evil whose sole rationale is to avoid determinism (e.g. open theism, simple-foreknowledge Arminianism, and Molinism).
(3) There is no compensating good that comes from avoiding determinism.
*Therefore*
(4) If God leaves human choices undetermined, He permits (or risks) the existence of evil without any compensating good (follows from (2) and (3)).
*Therefore*
(5) God does not leave human choices undetermined (follows from (1) and (4)).
*Therefore*
(6) Calvinist determinism is true (follows from (5)).
Steve Gregg is not an open theist and says he's not in his opening statement. However, I will agree that anyone who rejects meticulous providence and accepts libertarian free will should admit that they are an open theist because man's free will and God's absolute foreknowledge cannot coexist.
Many Arminian's when pressed will fall into the open-theism category as opposed to simple-foreknowledge or Molinist categories. Ok. Steve Gregg is a confused mish-mash of simple-foreknowledge and open-theism.
Amen brother!
Critical Thinker = Internet Troll
A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues.
Lets go! Your spreading a man centered theology that makes God absent of any sovereignty over His own creation. And I'm the heretic? ...bahahaha.
It's you who teaches the false doctrines of conditional election, universal atonement, partial depravity, resistible grace, and the possibility of lapsing from grace if you so chose.
Since the teachings of this Hyper-Arminianism to which you love so much, are simply contrary to Scripture, and manifestly false. They're a perversion of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. There is only one gospel, not two. Anyone who preaches any other gospel is preaching a false gospel and is accursed.
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Gal. 1:8-9).
Hyper-Arminian's such as your self, who hold to these false doctrines consistently must believe that their salvation depends, in part, on their own merit-and persons who are depending on their own merit instead of the merit of Christ are on their way to perdition. If you hold, for example, that God elected you because He foresaw that you would have faith, then why do you have faith, while someone else does not? Don’t you really believe that your faith is meritorious-you merited salvation by your faith, while your neighbor did not have faith, and thus did not merit salvation? If you hold this consistently you are not trusting on the merit of Christ alone but upon your own merit, and you are lost. The biblical Christian believes that salvation is all of grace; otherwise all men are lost.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).
You can't go to scripture to back up your claims, you merely depend on your traditions. Your simply a troll searching for someone to spew profanities, and make assertions that you yourself don't even try to defend.
The Bible teaches that God elected His people in Christ before time began. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...” (Eph. 1:4).
The Bible teaches that election was of God’s free grace and love, with nothing in the creature as a condition or cause inducing Him to do this.
“And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, *when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls*, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! *For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy*. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” *So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.* (Rom. 9:10, 18).
The Bible teaches that Christ did His atoning work on behalf of His elect people, and no others. “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it” (Eph. 5:25). “I lay down my life for the sheep” (Jn. 10:15). “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine” (John 17:9).
The Bible teaches total depravity, that is, that man, in every part of his nature (intellect, emotions and will) is hopelessly ruined by the fall. Fallen man is dead in trespasses and sins and cannot give himself spiritual birth. Regeneration is entirely the working of our gracious, sovereign God. “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1). “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John. 1:13).
The Bible teaches that God is absolutely sovereign and all-powerful. “...the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.”.... All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Dan. 4:32, 35). “For who hath resisted his will?” (Rom. 9:19).
The Bible teaches that Christ’s true sheep have eternal life and shall never perish.
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John. 10:27-29).