Talking To A Calvinist | Is Faith A Work?

[@GreatLightStudios]

Watch the full discussion here: ruclips.net/video/5AOmdqvOY-Y/видео.html

[@rogermills2467]

No thanks, this abridged version is enough to make any reasoned person hate your religions.

[@SpotterVideo]

Mat_9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

[@sqinisekomajolq5547]

Grace/Mercy is a gift from God to all humanity through Christ.❤️.
Grace does not equal unfair favouritism toward the elect and hateful damnation toward the non elect.❤

[@ravissary79]

This hurt my brain... 4:00 "faith doesnt merit" minutes later 5:15 "if God's not the one moving our hearts first... our faith becomes something we do to merit"
🤨

[@Tigerex966]

A clear contradiction he does not see because God leaves no one alone we all have the ability of faith a gift from God.he is stating something that is impossible to do.
That is...Have faith in God without God giving us all the ability to have faith.
Yet he does not see it..
I may be missing something.

[@ravissary79]

@@Tigerex966 that's yet another contradiction. The one I'm pointing out is that if God makes you have faith it's not a meritorious work, but if he DOESN'T make you have faith, but you believe anyways, then it IS a meritorious work?

[@Tigerex966]

@@ravissary79 I see now.
Clear contradiction.
Their stating faith changes from belief to a work based on if god moves first before you believe.
Or if you believe before God moves.
My point is it's impossible to believe in God without him moving first.
No one can do that so its a false question.
Usually followed by if you were elect you will receive regeneration to be born again before you believe and then have faith and then believe and then be saved.
If you are not elect you are passed over unable to believe and damned to hell.

[@ravissary79]

@@Tigerex966 right, no one lives in a vacuum.

[@michaeldouglas5096]

@@ravissary79I think I heard someone put it this way. Did God save you or, did you just make a good decision on your own

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

To believe on CHRIST isnt a work . There are no salvific works . Belief in CHRIST is counted as righteousness.

[@nikokapanen82]

When we talk about faith, we must understand that there are two types of them; worldly faith that millions of so-called "Christians" have and then genuine faith that only truly born-again believers have.
Worldly faith is fruitless, it is dead, people who have such faith are no better than atheists. Genuine faith is fruitful, it is alive, meaning it has good works as James explained it in his book.
Now the question is faith works, depends on what faith you are talking about, worldly or genuine. Worldly faith which is fruitless and dead is not and cannot be works because it has no works but a genuine faith that bears good fruit meaning has good works to show, such faith, if activated by your own self, most definitely is works.
Calvinists believe that this genuine faith is not works because it is activated purely by God Himself, so we have no right to boast about it since it is not our own doing as Paul explained, while non-Calvinists claim that this faith is our own achievement, we activate it by our own freewill choice and strength and therefore it is definitely our own works that we suppose to get some glory for it.

[@mikelyons2831]

Calvinists, work with me (see what I did there?), we're out hiking. We see a lone little bush up the trail. It's on fire, but the flames don't appear to be consuming it. We hike right up to it & witness the phenomenon. Our realization of it's burning & it's leaves & branches remain unscathed is not a work.

[@paulbeahm3891]

Calvinism doesn't teach that faith is a work, it teaches that God sovereignly chooses people who hate Him and changes them to people who love Him.

[@mikelyons2831]

@@paulbeahm3891 Interesting. I've heard them say faith is a work for decades. "He sovereignly chooses people who hate Him & changes them to people who love Him", hmmm.
Nicodemus hunts down Jesus for a 1 on 1. Zacheus runs ahead, climbs a tree to see Jesus. Ethiopian Treasurer acquires a copy of Isaiah & reads it. Cornelius prays, gives alms, his agnostic belief that God exists is rewarded. Lydia attends a prayer meeting then listens to Paul. Bereans searched the scriptures. Some men of Athens blew Paul off, some said they would listen another day, some believed. King Agrippa says your about to persuade me to become a Christian. No one in scripture is said to have been irresistibly coerced/forced into believing. Paul would reason in the Synagogues for weeks. All those asking, seeking & knocking like Christ commands have rather pragmatic experiences like all my family & friends whom have become Believers...not one of them had a Calvinistic "Poof" conversion.

[@jeannet7443]

@@paulbeahm3891 Correction: Calvinism teaches that God sovereignly chooses SOME people to not be saved and SOME people to be saved.

[@mikegreene9137]

​@@mikelyons2831how would they know?

[@mikelyons2831]

@@mikegreene9137 Like Nicodemus wondering how being born again happens (can you enter your Mother's womb for a second time?) vs him being zapped. The man who's Son was delivered from Demons by Jesus & said "I believe...help my unbelief" instead of replying "I got it all figured out Jesus, I was just instantly infused". The Philippian Jailer asking "What must I do to be saved?" rather than anything like "Wow household, did yall feel that?" "Ya Pa, we felt it too". The two on the road to Emmaus listening for hours... like all I've listed, my kinfolk, my friends & myself, none had the exceptional experience of the Apostle Paul. What about you & your kin, were any of them irresistibly overcome & saved at their first experience of hearing about Jesus/salvation???

[@joshuabetinis]

Very interesting video, thanks Jordan! 💎

[@kennyharmonu5592]

The old question: If faith is a gift from God and He wants ALL being saved and created hell only for Satan and his demons, why hasn't He provided this gift to everyone?

[@LindsayJackel]

Because saving faith is different to living and serving faith.

[@AustinGonder]

The Bible does not say He wants every single person to be saved, you have to read verse in context

[@richb.48]

He HAS provided the gift for everyone. Not everyone receives the gift thru faith/belief. ANYONE can reject the gift. If I bought you a gift, and you threw it into the trash, it doesn't negate the FACT that I still bought you a gift. You just chose NOT to receive it. Faith is just faith. And as far as the other comments here, all means all, in context, and faith is faith; people need to stop making things so difficult.
God wants ALL people to come to repentance. Not all people WANT to come to repentance.
T in tulip is poorly defined by Calvinists. Total Depravity doesn't mean Total Inability. The word "Inability" needs to be defined further. We are UNABLE to save ourselves, but we are NOT unable to recognize we NEED to be saved. Calvinists conflate the hell out of this.

[@kennyharmonu5592]

@@AustinGonder 1 Timothy 2:4 [The Lord]
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[@josephgarrett3075]

@@kennyharmonu5592 Brother, please read verses 1-3 and 5 for the answer :)

[@kennyharmonu5592]

If faith is done to achieve merit, why has this same request being called by God as requisite for salvation?

[@JStevensdk7]

Faith is not a work.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:5 NKJV

[@yvonnedoulos8873]

Nice interaction but he doesn’t seem to recognize the point of contention. He sounds more like an Arminian, though, when he says God has to move in one’s heart. That sounds like prevenient grace rather than Calvinistic regeneration, in my estimation.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

I noticed that as well . He's using calvinist terms but tweeking the definition.

[@eiontactics9056]

The Calvinist completely underminds the Gospel... "If a man chooses faith then man is making the first step"... God made the first move by giving us Christ and the Gospel.

[@AustinGonder]

Wrong. Calvinism is the gospel

[@da2hampton]

​@slayerAG85 you don't know the heresy from your mouth. Can Calvinsim save me? Does the belief in Calvinsim save me?

[@eiontactics9056]

@@da2hampton Calvinism can save nobody. Calvinism leads many to hell because it preaches a different gospel, Jesus and God.

[@eiontactics9056]

@@AustinGonder Well, it's not the Gospel in Biblical Christianity that is revealed by Scripture.

[@eiontactics9056]

@@AustinGonder Also, what is the Good News for all men in Calvinism?

[@thomasharp3246]

Faith isn't the gift. Grace is the gift. What must I DO to be saved. Believe on the Lord and you will be saved. Faith is something we must do. God counts that as righteousness by the gift of grace.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

Faith is a work (John 6:29). It is something that we do. It is also a gift (1 Corinthians 12:9, Romans 12:3, Galatians 5:22, Philippians 1:29, Ephesians 2:8-10). As Luther says:
“The first and highest, the most precious of all good works is faith in Christ…” (Luther ~ Treatise on Good Works)

[@thomasharp3246]

@@brentonstanfield5198 if it's something we must do it's not a gift by definition. If faith is a gift there's nothing to do.

[@ManassehJones]

@@thomasharp3246 The salvific faith of Jesus Christ is the gift of Gods grace in the new birth to those whom God foreknew to be predestined to be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ. It's as plain as day.
The question is.....gave you truly been born again from above by the will and grace of God alone? Are you an utterly new creature? Just between you and the Lord, nobody else. You cant rem4kve the sllinter in anothers eye until Gods grace has removed the log in your eye.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@thomasharp3246 - No, all of the good works that we do are the gift of God. That is why the scripture of Ephesians 2:8-10 is so important. All is a gift. The faith and the works. As Paul says:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
As he says elsewhere:
1 Corinthians 15:10: But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Philippians 2:12-13: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
When Paul thanks God all through the New Testament epistles, he thanks God for the works others do, their labor of love, their faith, their partnership in the Gospel. Paul recognizes that the good works of men are the works of God through them. It is an necessary part of that Gospel message that God is at work in His people as He promised:
Ezekiel 36:27: And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

[@thomasharp3246]

@@ManassehJones salvation isn't predestined for anyone. Predestination is a calvinist heresy. Jesus died for every single person. Most people reject His sacrifice while few believe.

[@bolt.22]

I think of faith in Christ this way. Imagine I'm a complete paraplegic, can't move a thing in my body, but I can talk. The building I'm in is on fire, I will perish. A firefighter calls out asking if anyone needs to be saved, I respond, "yes". He comes and saves me. He's the hero, he did all the work, I just responded to the call.

[@HJM0409]

Works of the law - working toward your own righteousness is what is not possible.
Faith- is active response to God and it is valued - merited by God- counted by God as righteousness.
The contrast is the work of law and faith.
Faith is the requirement Jesus himself gave.
God requires something from is, and every person is able.
This is written so you might BELIEVE

[@sketchbook1]

So many Calvinists brag about their understanding of Romans 8-11, yet they totally botch the first 4 or 5 chapters of Romans, which deal with faith.
The scriptures are CLEAR that faith is not a work, but it doesn't say the faith is a gift.

[@mikelyons2831]

I get you. But I wouldn't word it as they get Romans 8-11. I've never seen them get 8-11 correct, until they came out of their Calvinism like Leighton Flowers, Warren McGrew, Kevin Thompson & Alana to name a few.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

Chapters 4 and 5 of Romans does not deny that faith “is a work”. It distinguishes between SALVATION BY FAITH (in which all one has to DO is believed, and SALVATION BY WORKS (in which one must DO the whole law to perfection). Faith is something we DO. It is a work. But it is the singular work that gives all praise and glory to God for doing ALL the work.

[@sketchbook1]

@@mikelyons2831 I said they BRAG about getting it... I never said they actually got it...

[@sketchbook1]

@@brentonstanfield5198 Paul spends the entire time contrasting faith with works, as if each are not the other.
It is strange for you to turn around and gather from the text that Paul was only saying that faith was some kind of OTHER or "little" work...

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@sketchbook1 - Paul contrasts Justification/salvation by works and by faith. He writes:
Romans 4:2-4: For if Abraham was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
As Paul explains in Galatians 3:10:
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Paul makes clear that trying to earn it BY WORKS REQUIRES PERFECT obedience. Paul does not deny that faith is a work. He explains that JUSTIFICATION/SALVATION by works is different than JUSTIFICATION/SALVATION by faith.
This isn’t difficult. Paul is not contradicting Jesus in John 6:29.

[@classact9557]

All human beings on Earth are given the capacity to have faith in something. This is undeniable. Whether your are “elect” or “non-elect”.
The way that we put our faith in Christ is explained in Romans 10:17, “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.”
Which means that the sinner has to be shown the truth as revealed in Scripture. Whether through a preacher, through a friend who is a believer, or through reading of the Word for thenselves. When the sinner recognizes the truth for what it is, that all are sinners in need of a Savior, and repent, or “change their mind” and believe in the finished work of Christ, then God will “credit” them with the Righteousness of Christ.

[@captainmarvel76927]

Are babies born in a state of sin, if yes how are they saved since they cannot profess with their mouth? If no, then does God preserve them from the sin of Adam thus setting up biblical contradiction?

[@jeffreybomba]

In his version of Calvinism I guess God reaches out to everyone, but instead of regenerating the chosen, He only softens the chosen.

[@joanned9583]

Here is my question - If God has already decided who gets saved and who doesn't, why are we told we must proclaim the Gospel to everyone? what's the point of it?

[@klearnsmore]

Because we still don’t know who is saved or will be saved so once God allows their spiritual eyes/ears to open then those who were unsaved will then hear - when they hear the gospel

[@Tigerex966]

God has left no on alone.
So where are calvinist getting this question of you cant believe if left alone.
Its a false question which i believe is to weave in only the predestined elite elect are not left alone.
In this case we have a calvinist who allegedly believes all men can freely choose Or reject God.
Which every single calvinist I have heard upto this point rejects immediately because it cancels out 4 of the letters in tulip immediately.
I would like for the young man to talk to some traditional calvinist or watch videos on the subject by leading ones like rc. john mac. james white. john piper and.
Others.
As his views contradict all of those theologians and john calvin himself.
But i am not sure he knows that or even cares.

[@scottthong9274]

We have to humble ourselves and admit we can't save ourselves = standard Christianity
We also have to admit we can't even humble ourselves, God is the one who makes us = sorry but no

[@aletheia8054]

1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

[@Apollos2.2]

Going to watch the full video now. I always find it so interesting when a Calvanist will say they agree with everything you just said... it's kind of like they don't want to admit their system is saying "God has only chosen "some", a few for salvation and the rest do not come because they were not chosen to be gifted with faith. Consequently they are condemned to Hell, because God decrees all to be unable to come to Him (unless of course, you are chosen) 😮

[@Objectivetruth9122]

Just curious what do you make of the verse in John where Jesus says “ no one can come to me unless the father draws him? The reason the Calvinist agrees is because the general call does go out to everyone, but unless the father draws them, they will not come, hence election

[@Apollos2.2]

@jakeklassen9122 well John 12:32 uses the exact same word.
You gotta look at John 6:45 too
John 6:44-46 NKJV - “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Jesus and the Father speak the same, the same "voice" of you will, the same message. If anyone is following God back then (or anytime) in spirit and in truth (John 4) they will then also follow Christ.
But if they don't follow God the Father, neither will they come to the Son.
It's like this when God told Ezekiel they won't listen to him cause they don't listen to the Father
Ezekiel 3:5-7 NKJV - “For you are not sent to a people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, but to the house of Israel, “not to many people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, whose words you cannot understand. Surely, had I sent you to them, they would have listened to you. “But the house of Israel will not listen to you, because they will not listen to Me; for all the house of Israel are impudent and hard-hearted.

[@Objectivetruth9122]

@@Apollos2.2 hey thanks for the respectful reply, I appreciate you not lashing out at me. John 12:32 is not meant in the same sense , ““He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭40‬ ‭ESV‬‬
This verse clearly shows that he didn’t draw all “ people to himself In the sense of every human being, in fact he blinded those he is referring to in this verse so that they would not turn and be healed, instead Jesus is referring to those whom the father has given him - “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭37‬ ‭ESV‬‬
“While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17‬:‭12‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Was it determined by God that Judas should be lost so that the scriptures should be fulfilled?

[@Apollos2.2]

@jakeklassen9122 and who has the Father given to Jesus? Those who have heard and learned from the Father, NOT those who don't want to hear.
Think about this, why
John 12:40 NKJV - “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
Why would God have to blind those who cannot come anyway (in Calvinism) if the Father doesn't draw them, they wouldn't be capable anyway, no need for blinding them. Right?

[@Objectivetruth9122]

@@Apollos2.2 hey thank you again for the reply! It’s so good to dig into to scripture and by doing so solidify what we believe, I can see why you believe what you stated. What your not taking into account though is that Jesus is speaking to Jews who were part of the old covenant & had been enlightened under the prophets and knew scripture very well, and they themselves had hardened their hearts towards that enlightenment and God here further hardened them , gave them over to the desires of their flesh as Roman’s 1 puts it. Now to answer you question, can someone come to believe without God taking out their heart of stone and giving them a heart of Flesh as God clearly states In Ezekiel? Sure and let’s see what kind of belief that is within the very context of the scripture you and I are discussing- “Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭42‬-‭43‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Nonetheless as it states many did believe. Was this a belief unto salvation? Clearly not because they still loved the glory of man more than God. The demons believe but clearly aren’t saved! So there’s an intellectual belief which the Jews would be enlightened to but not a heart change! Or rebirth as the Bible puts it. There are theologians who debate each other and yet live as atheists not adhering to what they debate, Piper mentioned this in one of his messages and I had a friend who used to go to our church who encountered this. So as we can see from this text and reality knowledge alone doesn’t save. And also You and I both know that you can draw a lot of people to the altar with an emotional based message and low lights and soft music to draw at the heart strings towards where they feel all
Mushy about God and have them “ask Jesus into their hearts and they feel all good about themselves and even experience relief from the guilt of their sins, but once that emotion wears off they fall back into whatever they were doing, And I dare say Jordan will not except the whole of scripture because he basis his beliefs on emotion to a degree, like how can you have this discussion and not mention Roman’s 9 which is all about this! Seriously, the only reference he makes to Roman’s nine as one of contempt in his voice! If you can’t accept what it says than maybe your not qualified to argue it. at least Calvinists dare to preach on the whole Bible and understand Gods love even in those hard texts, again if you watch the whole video you’ll realize Jordan avoids going into Job when David mentions it and then he says we’ll go into those hard texts BUT NEVER DOES. He doesn’t because he’s not interested in learning anything, just trying to push his view, which is very compromised by his emotions. because he doesn’t even know where he stands on “hell . If we follow the God of our emotions than we have to ask is this ligning up with the God of the Bible. Also you mentioned they will be taught by God. My response is if God doesn’t give othem a heart of flesh to receive it then they can agree with that is being taught but don’t believe in a way that actually changes their life, their not reborn

[@leepretorius4869]

Is this a sequel?

[@unitedstates3068]

excerpt from part 1?

[@5Solaservant]

If “faith” is a “work” then we are saved by works and not the sufficiency of Christ. As we all have to be justified by faith alone. Therefore if faith is a work then it is saved by work alone

[@handydantheman8030]

No, it's not. "He who worketh NOT **but** believes - his faith is counted for righteousness" Paul. Works can't save(justify you before God/ make you right with him) - so faith can't be a work in and of itself. Godly works are an ongoing part of sanctification, an outgrowth of true faith.

[@aletheia8054]

“Faith works by love”

[@handydantheman8030]

@@aletheia8054 we are talking about soteriology. Paul said it’s by faith and that faith here isn’t a work- because we are not saved by a work/works - but rather our faith/belief (which is not a work)- in Christs work on our behalf. And faithful works are effective because of/through/ by / the love of God on our behalf shown at the cross.

[@davevandervelde4799]

This is possibly the area to explore again. I just listened to 2 of Jordans videos on Ephesians 1 and 2 and I think I know what the confusion is ( I am a fast learner- only had to watch 4 times)
What I said at the 4: 10 minute mark
2 points -
1.The gospel is something we are commanded to do i.e. Repent and believe. I dont think it is ever presented as a request in the Bible.
2. I said that the faith is part of our salvation. I think saying it is part is accurate.
I need to do some homework on this. 🤓

[@andrewlineberger7544]

Really like your take on this
Thankye from Denver NC

[@rs-xr3ty]

This Calvinist literally contradicted himself as they all do.

[@charlesrosenbury231]

This conversation leaves me confused. Faith is not the same as belief. When you drop a ball on Earth, it falls to the ground. It does so because of gravity. Gravity is unseen.
When you drop the ball, you have faith the ball will drop. It is the evidence of things unseen. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith saves us. It is the evidence that we are saved. You can't stop it.
You can choose to ignire it (unlike gravity). You can choose to attribute the reality to some other force. But faith is the evidence for the unseen thing.
People think of faith as interchangeable with belief. They are not the same. If God says you are saved, you are saved. And nothing you can do will change that. Similarly, if God says you are not, you are not. And nothing you say can change that either.

[@KevinDay]

If the Bible teaches that God effectually causes us to have faith, then great, we should believe that. (And I do! I hold to Lutheran soteriology because I believe it is the best reading of the whole New Testament).
But if faith is not meritorious on Calvinism, then WHY do so many Calvinists primarily argue as if faith coming from yourself would be earning your salvation and contradicting salvation by grace apart from works?? Especially the ones that call it a false gospel. They condemn other Christians for believing exactly what they themselves supposedly believe.
NO ONE is saying mam makes the first move towards God. Not even Provisionists. Everyone believes God sought us first, and we passively receive it by believing what he says. I'm sick and tired of the straw men.

[@Sam-fp8zm]

These people if / when they do not listen should be treated as pagans, and tax collectors due to the repeated bad sin of lying about the gospel, Gods will, nature, and sovereignty. It is not Christian to keep engaging them.

[@jeffreybomba]

Unfortunately, the Greek grammar does not support the Calvinist/Augustinian connection between faith and gift in Eph 2:8. Augustine did not even know greek, and the extra meaning given in the greek across the NT is why Catholics avoid the greek like the plague and try to turn Latin into the chosen language of the NT. The only thing latin has to do with Christianity for a couple centuries is the face that it is written on the plaque describing Jesus’s crimes.

[@aletheia8054]

What verse?

[@nikokapanen82]

The problem with non-Calvinists doctrine that teaches that it is God who does almost all the work, like 99.9% of all what is needed to be done is done by God and not by man. Man, only does 0.1% which is literally miserable nothing, a joke that should not be even mentioned, therefore it is definitely not "us saving ourselves" but "God saving us" doctrine.
This sounds nice until you ask a non-Calvinist to confess that it is not the God's 99.9%, no, it is precisely that miserable nothing, that joke, those 0.1% of what man needs to do that actually determines whether you are going to go to a place of eternal peace joy and beauty or whether you will go to a place of pain suffering and misery.
So, you see the cleverness of non-Calvinists? They reduce that part what man has to do to a complete nothing, to 0.1% which they say is a joke that should not be even mentioned, yet that joke, those 0.1% is ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!!! Those 0.1% what you must do is the core foundation of your salvation! Therefore, no matter how you would try to twist and kink the truth, non-Calvinistic doctrine is always "me saving myself" doctrine.

[@jeffreybomba]

Why do you not answer the original issues here? Your .01 argument you continue to make is a canned straw man taught to all Calvinists.
Let’s use another Calvinist interpretation (NO NOT ONE SEEKS) to make the point. That is a quote from two nearly identical Psalms (funny God would do that) written about THE FOOL THAT REJECTS GOD, but of course that context does not matter. How about the rest of the times the Bible uses the word SEEK in the context of God and man? ALL of them indicate that God seeks a humble and contrite heart, commands us to seek Him and rewards those who seek Him. In Classic Calvinist fashion you pull the quote in Romans from all context, come to a conclusion, and then force that conclusion into all the other texts.

[@nikokapanen82]

@@jeffreybomba
Yes, God does seek the humble and the ones who seek Him but who is the giver of such humble nature that seeks after God?

[@jeffreybomba]

@@nikokapanen82 Just like I said, you will take plainly written texts and insert Calvinism into them.

[@johncmeade]

Faith is not a work it is the Gift of God Ephesians 2:8-9
The works of God is this to believe in the one he sent John 6

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

It's not that no one CAN believe but that not everyone WILL believe.
The Pharaoh was an example of a man that will not believe, even at the most extreme command.
Jesus said I did not come for the righteous but sinners to repentance. Why?
Because the righteous exalt themselves over the throne of God as Lucifer before him.
But " If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Gods first act to humble man was when He cursed the ground for our sake. If He would not have cursed the ground we would have no reason to humble ourselves.
God humbles the exalted, and exalts the humble, the first will be last and the last will be first.
It is God that makes the first move, as no one seeks after God while they're in their iniquity, therefore it is God that loves us enough to correct us and call us to repent. The unloving thing would be to let us perishin our ignorance.
Faith is extended to us, that if we would believe in the Son and put our trust in Him, He will show mercy on us and reward us Rest unto our souls.

[@truthwithproof5847]

I'm a Christian according to scripture would u like to talk sometime

[@AustinGonder]

No Calvinist thinks faith is a work. Faith is a gift from God, faith is the conduit by which the grace of God flows into the heart of the elect. In other words, faith is the means by which Grace is dispensed. We are not saved because of our faith, we are saved BY faith

[@TheBereanVoice]

We are not saved by faith or even by faith in Christ. I think it would be better to say we are saved by Christ through faith.

[@soulosxpiotov7280]

Faith is a WORK, but it is a work of GOD (John 6:29). Faith is a GIFT, the Lord Jesus is the AUTHOR and Finisher of saving faith.

[@tiptupjr.9073]

The Scriptures have already answered this.
“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭29‬
Faith is a work, but it's a work performed by God, not man.

[@ManassehJones]

Wooooord!

[@perttisuorsa4678]

If God was better at expressing His thoughts these endless discussions would be totally unnecessary.

[@jeffreybomba]

The one mistake in your presentation is to take the statement from Romans 2 about the Law working in the hearts, as the natural state of man is mistake. The Law being written on the heart is the original promise of what salvation would be. I’m chapter 2 he is talking to the reader (you) that has professed faith. To the Jews he warns not to condemn others for not keep the Law that they CANT keep either, and the gentile believer that has had the Law written on his heart according to the promise.

[@nberrios777]

Faith is a free gift from God that is the ability to do something that pleases Him - like trusting and depending. Therefore it is not a work. Faith is also the ability to do a work and therefore not a work. And I'm a Calvinist.

[@thelordschannel2262]

Romans 12:3
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”
“God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”
Faith is a gift.

[@LindsayJackel]

Ephesians 2:8-9 Salvation is the GIFT, not faith.
There's a difference between SAVING faith and CHRISTIAN life/walk faith.
Context kills Calvinism. Read the first eight verses of Romans 12 together, in context. God is equipping Believers for their walk with Him, and for SERVICE. Romans 12:6 (Remember, we are elected to service, not to salvation.)
We access God's GRACE via FAITH. Romans 5:2
It is God's grace that saves and equips us to live for Him. Ephesians 2:8
Romans 12:6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; (ESV)
2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (ESV)
Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)

[@mikelyons2831]

Something that sometimes gets lost in the subject is, what we are putting our faith in/towards. The secular world often says "Have faith" "People of faith have good families & work ethics" "The world needs more faith". It's a specific faith in a specific person... Jesus. Faith that believes & responds to the GIFT of grace (forgiveness through Christ Jesus) to the point of believing/trusting. How most Calvinists have been bambosold, Hoodwinked into believing faith is a work is baffling, but not surprising 👿 "Hath God indeed said?"
God creates the world & man, sends His Son, preserves His word, Billy Graham team reserves the stadium, sends out advertisements, builds a stage, brings in sound equipment, the gospel is preached & the guy that didn't get out of his seat, but went home & pondered it for a few days until surrendering his life to Christ/believed...worked his way into Heaven???

[@davepugh2519]

Might as well discuss the colour of Santa Claus' underpants.

[@davevandervelde4799]

I would like to pose a question
First a couple quotes
There is a free, sincere and merciful offer to every creature. Full and free to every creature who will repent. A.A. Hodges
The reprobate have exactly the same warrant to believe the gospel as the elect.
We do not offer Christ on the basis that one is elect. Always on the basis that Christ will save everyone who comes to Him Samuel Rutherford
Jesus Christ is able to save to the uttermost all that come to Him. He promises to save all that come to Him. John Preston
True faith takes its character and its quality from its object and not from itself. Faith gets a man out of himself and into Christ. Its strength therefore depends on the character of Christ . Even those of us with weak faith have the same strong Christ as others.
Sinclair Ferguson The Christian Life p62
Here is the question
What is the point of man needing to be re-generated if they already posses the ability to place trust in Christ naturally?
Calvinism teaches that - Re generation precedes faith.
I would like to rephrase that a bit - Re generation is required so one can see the need to place their faith in Christ.

[@gwine2nine52]

I will nvr understand how a calvanist can read romans1 18-32 and stii believe in total inability. You suppress the truth God gives you over. You seek the truth God grants you saving faith.

[@heavenbound7-7-7-7]

"You seek the truth"
"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." Romans 3:11

[@gwine2nine52]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 the very definition of suppressing the truth is NOT seeking the truth. If you are able to do one you can do the other. Simple logic.
Read romans 3:10 notice pail says it is written....where?? Psalm 14 tell me in psalm 14 who doesnt seek God or understand?

[@heavenbound7-7-7-7]

@@gwine2nine52
"Read romans 3:10 notice pail says it is written....where?? Psalm 14 tell me in psalm 14 who doesnt seek God or understand?"
Paul's point is to show that everyone is under sin and condemnation.

[@gwine2nine52]

What??? Thats not the point of our conversation. You said according to romans 3:11 man cant seek God or truth or understand. Psalm 14 says something very different and that is what paul is referring to...so i ask you again who does not seek God in psalm 14?

[@heavenbound7-7-7-7]

@@gwine2nine52
"so i ask you again who does not seek God in psalm 14?"
Nobody seeks God not even one.
"The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one." Psalm 14:2-3

[@aletheia8054]

When talking about faith, wouldn’t it make sense to begin with the definition of it in the Bible?
Did they ever do that?

[@davevandervelde4799]

That is a great point. My sister told me the same thing☺

[@aletheia8054]

@@davevandervelde4799 You might like Grace and truth, ministries pastor, Jim Brown
We define every word in the sentence in the Greek and Hebrew

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

The Canons of Dort rejects the errors of those who teach faith is a work. Calvinism doesn't say faith is a work, but Calvinism stands against anyone who teaches that faith is a work.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

Faith is a gift, as in God has given us a means to be redeemed.
Without this gift we are condemned. There is no other way to get back to the presence of God, as in the beginning before we, man, had gone their own way, without faith in the Son.

[@LindsayJackel]

Ephesians 2:8-9 Salvation is the GIFT, not faith.
There's a difference between SAVING faith and CHRISTIAN life/walk faith.
Context kills Calvinism. Read the first eight verses of Romans 12 together, in context. God is equipping Believers for their walk with Him, and for SERVICE. Romans 12:6 (Remember, we are elected to service, not to salvation.)
We access God's GRACE via FAITH. Romans 5:2
It is God's grace that saves and equips us to live for Him. Ephesians 2:8
Romans 12:6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; (ESV)
2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (ESV)
Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

Let God be true and every man a liar: 1Co 12:9 KJV - 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
You may have faith as an unbeliever but as believers, we are endowed with the faith of Christ Jesus

[@chrisharris9710]

Think about the argument you are making. That God has done X first, therefore we cannot make the first step. Why stop at the providing the means? Why not just say God graciously created the world, therefore he made the first move from the beginning?
Historically, when it comes to the debate as to who makes the first move in salvation, what is being debated is whether or not man can inherently respond to the external witness of the Gospel. One side says yes, which is your view, and the other says no. You can’t just redefine the debate and try to act as though external witnesses are God making the first move.

[@nikokapanen82]

When we talk about faith, we must understand that there are two types of them; worldly faith that millions of so-called "Christians" have and then genuine faith that only truly born-again believers have.
Worldly faith is fruitless, it is dead, people who have such faith are no better than atheists. Genuine faith is fruitful, it is alive, meaning it has good works as James explained it in his book.
Now the question is faith works, depends on what faith you are talking about, worldly or genuine. Worldly faith which is fruitless and dead is not and cannot be works because it has no works but a genuine faith that bears good fruit meaning has good works to show, such faith, if activated by your own self, most definitely is works.
Calvinists believe that this genuine faith is not works because it is activated purely by God Himself, so we have no right to boast about it since it is not our own doing as Paul explained, while non-Calvinists claim that this faith is our own achievement, we activate it by our own freewill choice and strength and therefore it is definitely our own works that we suppose to get some glory from it.

[@dougdozier8782]

Where in scripture does it say that the creation declares the gospel to people?
Where in scripture does it say The Law of God is written on pagan's heart?

[@aletheia8054]

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[@dougdozier8782]

@@aletheia8054 Romans 2:15 says the "Work" of the law not the actual Law.
Romans 1:20 the gospel is not in that passage

[@aletheia8054]

@@dougdozier8782 Yes. The work of the law written in their heart.
But they don’t know God so they don’t understand or do the law of God written in their heart as obedience to God. They do it as obedience to themselves.

[@aletheia8054]

@@dougdozier8782 2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
I’m not sure if the Romans verse is the same as those are not. I’ve been working on that for a while.
But one thing is for sure. The ones with the law on the heart in Romans are not Gods people.

[@dougdozier8782]

@@aletheia8054 The "Work"of the Law is declaring what they THINK is right or wrong. They act as their own Torah. The actual Law being written on the heart is only for believers(regeneration-Jeremiah 31)

[@ranbran2948]

Framing the question. You cannot have nor create faith in and of your self. It is a gift from God. It’s in the bible. He read the verse. Plain reading.

[@jasonmason6909]

The general call is just general to the Calvinist…. This guy believe there is a general call but no one can say yes to the call unless they are elect… He is skimming the surface of what he believes and what calvinism teaches…. A general call to the world is not a true call of repentance for everyone because God knows that only the elect will say yes….. it’s like he is making a general call just for the purpose now they won’t have an excuse….

[@trevino37]

Seems the more we have discussions on theology, the dumber each question gets. It’s to the point of driving Christians towards conversion to atheism…. Theological discussions does have a marginal return and this topic is way passed it’s limit.

[@LindsayJackel]

Looks like the topic didn't support your ideoloy/worldview.

[@josephalvinalmedatv8]

General call is not enough to bring a dead sinner to Christ. In a sense, this is God's first move, natural revelation of creation plus preaching of the gospel that Christ came to the world to save.
But the inner call of the HS must take place in the inner man too, illumination, conviction, drawing leading to repentance must take place too because depraved dead sinners cannot decipher, understand the gospel except by HS revelation 1 cor 2:14. They cannot convict their hearts of their sin too. They are too blind to see their true condition to realize their need of a saviour 2 cor 4:4. They cannot on their own draw themselves to the cross. That is why Jesus said No man can come to me unless the Father draws him and I will raise him up in the last day John 6:44.
So even if you chose to believe willingly, faith was all the work and gift of God as a result.
So can anyone believe without inner intervening grace? The provisionist which is a form of semi pelagianism( though L Flowers and his followers will deny it to avoid criticism but in substance teach semi pelagian doctrine) will have to say Yes, deny historic definition of Orig Sin, deny absolute total depravity because men only need external grace to hear the gospel. Men can respond and only need to hear and do not need the inner graces of the Spirit to bring him to faith. Man has innate ability to open his ears and eyes because he is not really dead, just affected by the fall. God cannot influence a dead sinner in any way to incline him to believe because it would be a violation of his libertarian freewill.
My final argument would be this. If God knew Saul would believe using his pagan libertarian freewill assuming it is the freewill scriptures teach, then why did God had to blind him, speak powerfully, directly to him and say I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. It is impossible for you to kick and resist.... I have chosen you to be a witness etc
.....Im sure Saul heard the preaching of the gospel, rejected Christanity because it was a cult in his wisdom, arrested preachers and was responsible for the execution of Steven. But why were those things not enough to convince him if he was able to understand the gospel and choose Christ as his Messiah. Why did God had to arrest him? Why did he have to witness a blinding powerful encounter w Christ on the road to Damascus?
God knew this special encounter would drive him to faith. Being blind already, could he have chosen otherwise to reject. Yes, it was unfair to his freedom right? But not when you're chastised and blinded. He already heard the gospel message in Jerusalem so why the need for this special encounter?
The conclusion is this - Semi pelagians believe hearing the gospel is all the external grace a sinner needs. He is not dead in sin just affected by sin. He has no sin condition just acts of sin. There is no original sin, not under judgement and condemnation in Adam which Rom 5:18 refutes. Semi pelagians ignore this verse. No need for internal intervening grace because man has the ability to respond left on his own. Right?
This is pure semi pelagianism if you base it on historic definition.

[@paulbeahm3891]

If faith is a response and we are born rebels of God, then why on earth would some naturally respond positively to something they naturally despise?
"There is NONE who seek for God"

[@LindsayJackel]

The hood news (Gospel) is that God seeks us. We may not naturally seek Him, but that doesn't we mean we cannot respond positively (belief, faith, trust, repentance) when God reaches out to us. Praise God for His love and goodness, and for His grace and salvation.

[@paulbeahm3891]

@LindsayJackel God doesn't really "seek" us though. Seeking implies lack of knowledge as to the whereabouts of the thing being looked for. He chooses us. He calls His sheep and His sheep hear His voice. No glory or involvement of us in our salvation. The only thing we contribute is our sin. God does all the saving.

[@LindsayJackel]

@@paulbeahm3891 You're wrong. God wants all to be saved and He reaches out to us and we can respond, some positively and others negatively. It's Scriptural.

[@paulbeahm3891]

@LindsayJackel well what you're really disagreeing with is the Bible here sir. God is willing that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. However, John 15:16a says
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain."
If Jesus has chosen His sheep then that means He has passed over others. Not that the chosen are any better than those not chosen. This is just one of many examples of divine election found in the Bible. Nowhere do we find an impotent God with no power to convert a soul and instead just pathetically reaches out a hand to anyone that will find it in their heart to grab on. The Bible teaches an all knowing, all powerful creator who knows the first from the last and has His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow. Some do not believe because they are not of His sheep.

[@folv6631]

@@paulbeahm3891John 15:16? Jesus choosing the apostles has nothing to do with salvation, and It doesn't mention salvation even once in that passage. Judas was one of the chosen according to John 6:71 earlier in the book that Jesus is talking to in John 15:16. The "fruit" is clearly referencing the believers that would be created by the ministry of the Apostles who are the direct subject matter of this verse. Peter affirms this in Acts 10:40-42 when he says that they were the chosen witnesses. And he specifically states that they were chosen to "preach unto the people". That is what they were chosen to do, Judas included. Yet Judas is not saved, is he?
I don't know if it's blatant dishonesty or genuine misunderstanding of the verse context. But just read John chapters 14 and 15 again and it is very clear who he is talking to (and what about) in that verse you quoted.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

Faith is a work (John 6:29). It is something that we do. It is also a gift (1 Corinthians 12:9, Romans 12:3, Galatians 5:22, Philippians 1:29, Ephesians 2:8-10). As Luther says:
“The first and highest, the most precious of all good works is faith in Christ…” (Luther ~ Treatise on Good Works)
Calvin’s quote is good because it shows what faith “is”, but it is not a statement that faith has “no intrinsic value”. It has immense intrinsic value. It is THE TRUTH. Those who have faith admit THE TRUTH for the first time in their lives… that they CANNOT DO IT and that God is the one who gives and does everything. It is up to Him. We depend on Him. It is just a statement of the fundamental truth in God’s relationship to men.

[@aletheia8054]

You left out the literal definition of faith in the Bible. Hebrew 11:1
Faith is the hupostosis. That Greek word literally means understanding.
When talking about what faith is, wouldn’t it make sense to begin with the definition of it?

[@mikelyons2831]

Brother Brenton, what am I gonna do with you, lol. Jesus is doing what He's known for doing in John 6:28-29. He takes your subject & uses it to teach you things (Fisherman? I'll make you fishers of men. Bread? I'm the bread of life. Water? I'll give you living water. Forgive 7x, try 70x7.)
He's mocking works & ceremonial rituals that the Pharisee Overlords have pushed on them. Think of it non-Calvinistically "Pfft WORKS??? Are you ready for the big list of WORKS... here it comes...ready... believe, just simply believe I AM, no works needed folks. The thief on the cross simply affirmed Jesus deity... that ain't a work.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@aletheia8054 - Of course. As Hebrews 11:1 says:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
It is the very thing (ie substance) we hope for. What is it that we hope for? That God will save us. Faith is God saving us. It is the EVIDENCE that He has changed our heart. The change of the heart is unseen by men. Faith PROVES it has taken place.

[@GreatLightStudios]

Simply defining faith as a gift doesn't in itself point to Calvinism at all. You would have to demonstrate that in order for something to classify as a "gift," the gift-giver has to decisively cause the recipient to embrace and receive it. It doesn't make any sense to me why Calvinists see the biblical texts that define faith as a gift and then assume that this in any way points toward determinism. It just doesn't. When I was a teenager my dad gave me the gift of a car. Did that mean that in order for the car to qualify as a "gift" that he had to not only offer it to me but decisively cause me to receive and appropriately utilize it? Of course not.
I just feel that there is a very peculiar definition of "gift" that is being superimposed onto all of these texts you are presenting here. I also think that Ephesians 2:8-9 is being poorly interpreted when one thinks that it is specifically "faith" that is the gift rather than the entirety of salvation. Not sure if that's what you are saying or not though. Either way, faith being a "gift" is not an evidence for Calvinism unless you assume a Calvinistic definition of what a gift is. A definition that I just find to be very odd and problematic to begin with.

[@aletheia8054]

@@brentonstanfield5198 yep

[@dwashington1333]

FAITH IS ONE OF THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING, REGENERATION PRECEDES FAITH. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN IS A DECLARATIVE NOT A COMMAND. YOU CAN NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN NATURALLY AND YOU CAN NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

[@mikegreene9137]

Yep...agreed. Pretty sure that is what John chapter 3 talks about... it often gets overlooked because of verse 16 which people choose to EMPHASIZE a word (whosoever) which is actually not even written in the Greek... LOL....the actual translation on that phrase is (ALL the believing ones... or ALL those believing)
But yes... earlier in John 3 when Jesus is talking to Nicodemus He does refer to the new birth and differentiates it from the natural birth and would very seemingly show that it is a work of God alone and not according to the will of man.

[@aletheia8054]

Yay. Faith is a production of the Holy Spirit.
It just literally says so. Free will people just don’t even see it.

[@folv6631]

Scripture clearly contradicts this concept. Many believed prior to receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:2-6 'He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.'
Same thing happened in Samaria.
Acts 8:14-17 - 'Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.'
And how do we receive the Holy Spirit?
Galatians 3:13,14 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Could it be written more clearly? Just as it was for the Samaritans, they received the Holy Spirit BY faith. Not the other way around.

[@aletheia8054]

@@folv6631 Yes. You can’t have the faith without the spirit because the spirit produces the faith. Gal 5:22

[@folv6631]

@@aletheia8054 Define what faith is if it is not belief and trust in Christ. Because again, as demonstrated, these men did believe. And they did so without the Holy Spirit coming upon them yet.
Just so we are on the same page, what is faith?

[@ManassehJones]

One must be GIVEN the salvific faith OF Jesus Christ in the new spiritual birth to receive eternal life.
Galatians 3:22-23
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith.....OF..... Jesus Christ might be....... given ........to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

[@aletheia8054]

Keep leveling the trail brother

[@LindsayJackel]

New (eternal) life is given by the Holy Spirit AFTER we chose to believe. By our faith we enter into the grace of God's gift of salvation. Romans 5:2 Through faith we obtain access into grace, not the other (calvinist) way around.

[@ManassehJones]

@@LindsayJackel That's your way. Not the Way; the Truth; and the Life.

[@aletheia8054]

@@ManassehJones See what I mean?
We chose
It happens every time. It’s like clockwork.
These people are just stupid

[@LindsayJackel]

@@ManassehJones What I outlined is the Biblical Way. What you are seeking to teach is calvinism, which is a man-made philosophy and ideology. It is a lie. You are seeking to corrupt Scripture and to mislead and waylay both Believers and the list. Repent.