The reason I love your videos is because you don’t try to come off as more experienced than you really are. You’re just really genuine and just a guy playing around and trying new things and telling us about it. It’s so refreshing, with all the self proclaimed experts and D.C. clones, No disrespect to him of course.
@@WannabeBushcrafter yes this is what i like too. Humility. There someone here commenting on how awesome they are and that hes the best. Thats a sure way to stop growing
atlatal : refined weapon with high penetration and momentum capable of taking out extremely large animals amentum javelin : a rugged ranged weapon with extremely high stopping power , and it's surprisingly good at short range staff sling : low skill weapon capable of lobbing stones and other projectiles at range you may clobber your enemy as they get closer sling : high skill weapon that can fully maximise the human ability to throw projectiles at range , and that will be as useful as a sock at close range
I originally found this because I was unfamiliar with the amentum. Now, I've learned more about the atlatl, as well as the javelin and its thrower. Thank you so much.
I love this video and I love how humble you are about all this. Have you considered that the atlatl fell out of use because it was supplanted by the bow and arrow? Bows would have started out better for smaller prey and atlatls for bigger prey, but as bow making became more advanced and more powerful, the range of prey that were best hunted with a bow would have grown and the range of prey best hunted by atlatl would have shrunk. Atlatls and bows fill a similar niche in warfare and hunting, being systems that balance range vs power, and require precisely-made ammunition. Javelins fill a more similar role to early firearms - a system with cheap ammunition that maximises power at the cost of range. Makes sense that atlatls would be supplanted by bows and crossbows, and javelins by muskets.
Thanks for watching! I'm almost certain that the bow was a contributing factor to the phasing out of the Atlatl. The thing that is fascinating to me is that the Atlatl was the dominant ranged weapon system across the entire world for thousands of years (very similar to the niche that firearms takes up today). So pretty much every community or group of people across Eurasia would at some point in time have transitioned from the Atlatl to another ranged weapon. At least in Eurasia, pretty much everyone transitioned to the bow, the sling, the javelin or some combination of these 3 ranged weapons. So I think the local climate and geographical conditions probably had a lot to do with which ranged weapon a group of people would replace the Atlatl with.
Somehow I had never actually stopped to think why the atlatl fell out of use over the javelin/spear and I think all your points are really compelling. I really love how you truly put in the effort for these videos.
@@arctoshorriblis well all of these weapons eventually fell out of use. But i had wondered why the Atlatl spear thrower fell out of use in Eurasia so much earlier than other contemporary stone age missile weapons like the bow, javelin, and sling.
@@WannabeBushcrafter because the atlatl is a hunting weapon, personally i think your points are snot the atlatl was just for hunting id rather have an atlatl than a javelin in a hunter gatherer settlement also your atlatl dart has no fletching's and they didn't last as long because you were hitting metal cans and not a cardboard box
Thanks for watching! I noticed while practicing with the amentum that twisting the strap around the javelin seems to destabilize the javelin and it would often hit my hand. Another thing is that the prussic loop seems to work much better than a bowline knot loop. The other thing I noticed is that unless you put your finger tip on the very edge of the loop, the javelin would not launch consistently. This is quite different from something like a swiss arrow where the throwing cord is not attached to the projectile.
@@HistoricalWeapons So for the Amentum, the loop is attached to the Javelin and stays with it over the course of it's flight. But for a lanyard (e.g swiss arrow), the cordage ends in an overhand knot that is wrapped around a figure 7 notch on the tail end of the dart. When the swiss dart is thrown, the lanyard stays in one's hand. One of these days I might do a video on swiss arrows and throwing lanyards, but it seems way less versatile imho when compared to the humble javelin.
@@WannabeBushcrafter I see so it’s like a handle on a javelin and not something that comes apart while throwing that’s what I was doing wrong with this loop method
@@HistoricalWeapons Yes, that's right. The amentum stays attached to the Javelin(like fletchings). The lanyard detaches from the swiss arrow(like an atlatl) during the throw.
Fascinating, I didn't know the atlatl was so accurate. As an aside, if you're trying to conserve calories, like in a survival situation you may be able to skip sharpening the tip with the knife and just char it more as you fire-harden it, and grind off the charcoal.
Thanks for watching! Yeah Atlatls are very accurate. I practiced almost daily for 3 months with the Atlatl and got to the point where I was getting 3 out of 4 shots at 30 feet on that 6 inch diameter coffee can. But I felt that I was just scratching the surface in terms of realizing the full precision potential of the weapon. I have read about people with years of practice and ultra consistent darts getting 2 inch groups at 30 feet.
Good video. Although the Atlat has its flaws, its virtues would explain in a certain way why the Aztecs and Mayas still continued to use it instead of javelins. For the Mesoamerican War, a type of shrimp known as ichcauipilli was invented. It resists most arrows and darts well, so the best option when attacking is to shoot at the most vulnerable areas of the body where there is no armor, or at short distances towards the heart and head. That being the case, higher precision and quick shots were more useful than a slower and less accurate Javelin. It also explains why the Aztecs held an annual festival called Quecholli where the darts were maintained: If, as you say, the area where the atlat goes in the dart could be damaged by a lot of use, and they could be deformed by humidity, they needed constant maintenance, while javelins no.
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts on this! Outside of Eurasia/Africa, other ranged weapons didnt quite displace the Atlatl. For the Aztecs, I heard that while they had self bows these were not of high poundage. So when there is textiles based body armor perhaps for them the Atlatl was the better weapon for penetration.
Very informative and thought-provoking comparison. At twice the range and much better accuracy the atlatl still has some great strengths but it'd be near-useless in a close range encounter. Great info!
Temporally the atlatl seems to fit with the rise of humans as the dominant hunter on the planet. Spears, fire, and stone tools had been around for 100,000s of years. The combination of accuracy at extra range while still having high kinetic energy and small cross section for penetration of thick hides appears to have made the extra effort in making atlatl darts worth the effort.
Thanks for watching! I really see the Atlatl as a weapon that became dominant world wide because of a very specific set of environmental conditions. In a way the Atlatl is similar to firearms in that almost all human cultures adopted it worldwide for a significant stretch of time.
This is great information presentation. In the first couple of minutes I have learned how to make, balance and attach a loop to a javelin. Theres lots of videos an hour long that never even cover the core information.
While the atlatl could be used as an effective war weapon, its main use was for hunting large game. The javelin was only effective in face to face ego stricken warriors in masses, the atlatl being much more sniper like. It is untrue that it takes two hands to load an atlatl. These people throwing weapons at small objects on the ground are not doing justice to how the weapons were used to hit vital organs of large animals, including humans. Uhmm, rock throwing and slingshots are best weapons for ground animals. How many darts can a warrior pack compared to much heavier bulky javelins? = How many takedowns were they really after? The javelin seems to be more the blood thirsty murderous game, the feel of killing someone at close range. Likely why the javelins were kept in use during that relatively short timeline in comparison to 20,000 years of atlatl, until archery took over.
Also atlatl is in the weird spot between javelin and bow and arrow in terms of performance. Was atlatl phased out roughly after bows appeared by a chance, maybe they were simply replaced by bows but javelins still ahd their niche?
Thanks for watching! Its certainly possible that Atlatl was replaced by the bow in terms of the long range usecases. Both weapons required using 2 hands, both requires difficult to make missiles. But the bow is better for most hunting situations. The bow and atlatl were contemporary weapons, both were available during the last ice age.
The bow and Atlatl have coexisted for a very long time, and in many places the Atlatl actually managed to supplant the bow as the popular hunting weapon; I personally think the big reason for Atlatls falling out of use is not Javelins, but rather advancements in bowmaking/archery. Primitive bows and arrows were not very powerful, but over thousands of years bows were continually improved upon while the Atlatl reached it's peak form quickly and then mostly stagnated; there came a point where bows were as powerful (or at least, similarly powerful) and accurate and eventually the Atlatl just stopped being able to compete. Meanwhile the Javelin kind of managed to just always be a useful weapon due to it's innate advantages over both these other weapon systems, (cheap, versatile, powerful, can be used entirely onehanded and doubles as a melee weapon) and even if they did ever fall out of use the concept of "throw sharp object" is so simple that it can't really be lost.
I am suddenly OBSESSED with this tool. Would you recomend soaking the sapling before heat bending? Wet enough if its from a living sapling? Any reccomended resources for straightening the shaft?
Thanks for watching! I did not soak the sapling, I just directly put the green wood over the fire. I find that because the shaft is so thick, it's actually way more forgiving to heat bend then either atlatl dart or arrow shafts. The other major difference is that once the Javelin shaft is straightened, it pretty much stays straightened for me. My Atlatl shafts needed to be repeatedly heated and straightened over the course of 3-4 days before it sticks.
As a kid i made darts , i put a nail about 200mm from the point i had another stick with string tide to it with loop on the end put loop on the nail and fired dart down our street it would fly about 80m i was about 10yrs old . must revisit it . Bernie C
very cool time line and analysis, I am a beginner bowyer, I have 2 successful bows to my name and about 9 broken bows. -I never knew or thought about the string loop on the javelin or the weight distribution, very cool! I have to make a few now!
I love your videos. ❤ Simple and down to the point. You should make more more often. If anything, it does get the brain working which gives us ideas on how to go about how to make different things using different materials for survival.
It would be cool if you did a video on the locations you use to test these weapons. Where do you test something like a sling or a bow that has allot of range and power? Some kind of large public forest seems like the best option, but not that convenient.
Yeah these are a few mostly empty baseball fields within a 5 min walk from my house so I use this place to test short to intermediate range weapons. For longer ranged primitive weapons like the long sling, I tend to prefer the shores of lakes the ocean or the Hudson river to do my testing.
Hey, the best option for finding your mid point is taking the spear on your index fingers, and bring your hands together, it will bring you to the gravitational center of your item.
The Irish used them against Cromwell when he went to southern Ireland. The finger loop rig was held mid way on the dart, but the cord was secured just before the flights. Those darts an a celtic style sling were used, perfect range weapons due to the bogs an Marsh terrain. Horses,troops would be stuck in the armour an the heavy horse couldn't be used effectively. The irish in the area were called bog trotters or black irish by the English troops.
Do you think it was common for early man to put a stone point or arrowhead on the front of his javelins? I'm struggling to picture the fire-hardened wooden point doing much damage to animals and opponents.
Thanks for watching! To my understanding, Javelin artifacts found from hundreds of thousands of years ago were tipped with fire hardened wood and sometimes with bone/ivory. Now in Roman times, there were written mentions of Iron age Germanic and Proto-slavic tribal nations carrying Javelins mostly tipped with charred wood or bits of hard bone(e.g Antlers), and a small number being tipped with iron heads. Fire hardened wood and bone/antler tipped javelins were found as late as the European dark ages before giving way to brass/iron heads. Now we also have a lot of ethnographic evidence in the 19th/20th century of pre-metal cultures in South America, Africa, and Oceania that used Javelins, and their javelins were pretty extensively tipped with wood or antler points. Now I think people certainly could have tipped their javelins with knapped stone points, but in my opinion, it might not have been worth it to put such an expensive(in terms of time, resources, and skilled labor) and fragile stone point on a delivery system that was so cheap to mass produce and kind of expendable in terms of usage. That's just my $.02.
An excellent video, WB! I hope you don't mind if I chime in with a few of my own thoughts to help strengthen your points. For example, the javelin, being just a sturdy pole may serve as multiple tools. Poles for small tipis for tanning hides or lean on shelters, as fire pokers and digging sticks, and as levers. One could lash a cross piece to make a hook to pull on dead branches for fire wood. Even tipped spears could have a butt spike to serve the formerly mentioned purposes. People say that spears are heavier for travel, and while one for one compared to darts yes, but when compared to all the other tools you'd need to carry with darts because they can't be used for anything else, a few spears aren't so bad. The atlatl seems mostly good at only hunting because it's too specialized. Sure, woomeras sometimes served as multi tools, but from my very limited experience with those specific kinds (a lot more Australian atlatls didn't do this than one might initially think from a quick Google search. Many were just that. Throwers.) They don't do particularly well as the adzes/gouges they sometimes try to take the place of (but like I said limited success. That doesn't mean it wasn't good.) Also, such intense accuracy to me seems irrelevant when much more appropriate weapons like slings and throwing sticks are much more useful for things in trees or on the ground. The flat flight of stick projectiles forces me to be at a specific range to hit a low lying target properly, but I suppose a skidding spear wouldn't exactly leave a rabbit unharmed. I'm glad you're using the javelin and advocating for it, despite us both concluding ultimately the ultimately serves as the better hunting weapon overall. I also hope to see more experimentation with throwing styles. I've been trying to throw "sidewinder style", trying to incorporate more across the body movement to engage the shoulders and chest more. It involves holding the javelin between the index and middle fingers, with the looped index finger on the top side. The palm faces out and the spear is held at shoulder level close to the body. It's almost like the upper arm is touching the body, and the elbow is bent 90 degrees, with the forearm pointing to the side. This allows you to flex the wrist properly so it can flick at the end of the throw, and the more across the chest. Perhaps this initial stance should change. The throw sorta involves both a pushing and chest crossing motion. I've found that this causes much better, flat flight and maybe an increase in speed, but I can't be too sure. It definitely consistently flies roughly sixty feet before skidding on the ground, though sometimes the spear is release too late and it flies to the side. It's very experimental and may not be correct. After all, why have no professional javelin throwers tried a throw similar to this? However, I think that it's possible that people just aren't thinking outside the box or willing to admit that perhaps the spear has certain advantages compared to the atlatl. Due to lack of understanding and written sources on spear usage, experimentation is the only way to know for sure. I hope to see more progress on your throwing with the atlatl and javelin again sometime and hear any new thoughts you have on them as your skill progresses.
Thanks for sharing your POV. You made a lot of good points about other uses that the javelin can fulfill. And I agree that comparatively, the Atlatl is just too specialized as a weapon for it's own good.
Hi I recently came aware of a tool primitive/ancient used in hunting: a scaring stick. This aide helped reindeerhunters in leading the herd closer to the hunters, which compensated for the shorter range they had with their bows. The scaring sticks would be used to guide the herds along a planned path, driven by drivers who made noises and “chased” the reindeer. The scaring sticks are really simple, a ≈1 meter stick, on one side pointy on other side a furrow. A very thin wooden flag would be attached with cordage. The movement of a row of wooden flags would scare the reindeer in avoiding them, thus being funneled to the hunter’s ambush. They where very widespread, and used from deep time to the iron age. They have been found in Greenland, Norway, Siberia and written descriptions mention them being used by Inuit people’s when westerners came arround. A quite simple thing to craft but a very important part of how ancient people with limited primitive tools and weapons took down big prey that lived in herds. In Norway they are found in the ice, in such a good state you could still use them. Even the wool cordage was still knotted on and flexible. I found out about them and thought this would be something your channel could shed light on well! Thanks for all the video’s, curious about your future projects and warm greetings from the Netherlands🇳🇱!
The way I think of it is that for everything the atlatl does better than the javalin, bows and crossbows did those things even better than the atlatl. They're all 2-handed, 2-part systems with extra time and attention to reload. So the atlatl lost out in that category. While the javalin (and thrown ax) survived in the simple, one-handed, also-a-hand-to-hand-weapon, just-throw-it category.
Hey man . Plz tell me if you can , but ; How do you sharpen rocks or stones into fashionable blades ? Like the angle , the trajectory . . Does it matter ? Would appreciate your input 🙏 Peace
Thanks for watching! I'm not much of a flint knapper. I can strike a few sharp flakes from quartz or glass but that's pretty much it. I would point you to another you tube channel called Hunt Primitive that has expertly crafted stone blades.
Just an opinion but the atlatll was probably phased out of use with introduction of the bow and arrow and the javelin was kept not so much as a thrown weapon as a short stabbing spear being , as you noted , ease of manufacture and durable in use .
Thanks for the thorough video. Awesome tempo, a video cut to support each statement, and showing a quiet confidence. Drop the "wannabe" moniker whenever you would like! Are there any primitive weapons that split the difference between the atlatl and javelin? Shepherd's sling comes to mind, but lacks the missile aspect of the dart style weapons
Thanks for watching and your kind words! So I'm of the opinion that another 2 weapons largely fulfills the long range, higher precision capabilities of the Atlatl on small and medium game and this would be the bow and the hand sling. And Javelins took care of the close in deep penetration role.
@@WannabeBushcrafter thank you!! I'm passionate about self bow making and hope to continue browsing your videos and learning... I can see myself practicing some of the woodworking on making javelins and plan to apply what you showed here
the midpoint would be a Kestros or Dart, but be don't exactly know how they worked or what they looked like. Its a dart with a lead tip thrown from a slightly modified shepherds sling
I believe another midway design would be called a Plumbata. I've not played with the Kestros or the Plumbata myself but there are some good videos out there from Tod's workshop on this. I did not think of these 2 weapons as primitive weapons that would've been available during the neolithic or early copper/bronze ages however. Both of these designs seems to be military only weapons developed during the classical period.
Awesome content! So would you say that as a projectile weapon, atlatl outperforms a Javelin, but since better projectile weapons like bow, crossbow, and eventually guns were developed, the Atlatl lost its place but Javelin could still be used due to its low cost to make/maintain and versatility? If this is the case, if we were to compare only the projectile weapons ranging from javelin to guns, would you say that the Atlatl is the easiest to make/maintain and best performing (best bang for the buck in terms of labor to performance) projectile weapon out there?
He just said that the javelin is the easiest to both make and maintain. And I dont see how is that even a question? Its just a stick cut to length and sharpened on one end xD The answer to your second question is clearly a gun, since its so easy to make today and you didnt specify which kind of gun, so a matchlock it is, since its very easy to whip one up in no time. If you wanted to really make it from scratch, then almost any gun is out of the question for mos people, simply because it would be too unsafe to use, unless youre a good blacksmith or a great brass casting guy. In that case, bows would be the best bet, since theyre the easiest to learn. However, like atlatls, projectiles are a pain. You constantly need repairs and new ones... Also, there is the obvious problem of string making for a bow. If you dont know how to make an adequate sting, you cant make a bow. P.S. I have to add that a branch bow can be good enough to use for small game and requires absolutely no work besides cutting a branch and whitlling two nocks. You still need a string though... And arrows :D
Thanks for watching! I think firearms overpowers every other muscle powered range weapons by far. With that said, I think there is a kind of complimentary synergy between the sling, the bow, and perhaps the Javelin. They were used for different purposes but as part of a single package of missile weapons for thousands of years.
@@WannabeBushcrafter thanks for making the video! I tend to forget most of these tools you post about existed 🤣 Well, not really, but Its nice to get reminded there are some quick projects one can undertake every now and then :D
@@WannabeBushcrafter Thanks for replying! That's interesting! I previously thought Atlatl would be the most bang for the buck in terms of simplicity and effectiveness for projectile weapons, but I went and watched your video on it and thought it was interesting how much work actually went into actually making and maintaining the darts. I've made and played around with sling and Javelin but not yet with Atlatl and bow and thought it was cool to see all the comparisons and connections you make with different projectile weapons! Please keep making these videos, they're really interesting!
Can u make a video on the uchiya weapon its a Japanese weapon but i seen it in Indias history's its a cylinder (kinda like a pipe or flute) and u put arrow in and swing it like a baseball bat
Definitely seems like an easier way to get a serviceable throwing weapon at least, relative to how much simpler it is to make. I'm surprised at the sheer accuracy difference, given all the trouble you brought up in that earlier video regarding the accuracy of unfletched atlatl darts. Though the mention of fletched javelins being a thing once again has me tempted to ask how well both the atlatl darts and that javelin might take to having fletching on them, and curious how well birchbark would work as a decent wilderness source for such. I could've SWORN I'd posted a comment to the effect of "I'm curious how well it'd work with fletching" in the atlatl video and that a reply led to pondering the idea of birchbark as one potential source of material for it (since if you actually needed it in a survival situation feathers and duct tape might not be an option), but can't find it. XD
Thanks for watching! I was curious about that very question so I took one Javelin and lashed onto it first some dried long grass and then later some sea gull feathers. It definitely made the Javelin's flight more stable at longer ranges then when unfletched. You could worry less about the cast itself introducing instability to the Javelin because the fletching compensated for it. However, I did not notice any significant improvements in accuracy within 30 feet between unfletched and fletched Javelins. It seems to me at least that the Atlatl is inherently more precise than the Javelin because the only point of contact where force is applied is on the spur itself. Where as for the javelin the point of contact is the palm of your throwing hand, your fingers, and the amentum loop. So there just seems to be way more contact points that could be slightly different from shot to shot with the Javelin. And this inconsistency IMHO affects the accuracy significantly.
Thanks for watching! That is my theory as well. That there really wasn't any advantages to the atlatl after the megafauna died out. For close in work you had the Javelin, and for distance shots you have the bow or sling. And these weapons just suited the new environment better.
Thanks for watching, I actually tried that with both grass as well as feathers. What I found was that the feathers made it easier to get off good throws where the Javelin lands point down even when my technique or form was bad. But in terms of precision within 30 feet, I did not notice any improvements.
I live somewhere that continues to use atlatls for a long time after other places had stopped. Looking at the plants that grow here i wonder if the change was that in harder conditions the thicker trees, even sapplings, didnt grow as well as smaller scrub like ones. So a weapon that took more skill to make but could use smaller trees and/or branches and the use of fire to straighten them was favored. Then when places warmed and growing conditions most places allowed for better tree growth it was dropped for the old theowing spears again exept in scrub lands without easy access to the right materials.
That's a very interesting theory. I often wonder if it was a combination of different factors that resulted in the abandonment of the atlatl in a particular area. And it could be that the combination of factors were different depending on the region. For some places it could be the lack of appropriate game or materials, for other places it could be the availability of more effective weapon designs.
@WannabeBushcrafter my home state does have a lot of small game. Rabbits and birds with some larger game, so the game size could very well mean that going with the smaller darts made sense.
@@WannabeBushcrafter always. Usefull Information is better than boasting about yourself like most do. Acriballistics is a humble dude. But has usefull info. Do you by change have his video on slow motiin tracking of his sling. Its realky helped me but i just cant find it again
Thanks for watching! That's a good question and it's hard to tell for sure because cordage is organic and thus biodegradable so there really haven't been any archeological evidence from the stone age of it's use.
The shortcoming of the Javalin is for small game. And that is a better choice for the survival hunter,IMNSHO. But I agree it is easier to make,my use has been easier than yours with the atlatyl.
I like both, and i understand your logic, but when you hit good with the atlatl is like 3 times stronger shot, javelin feels like can't penetrate animals
Thanks for watching! I also think the Atlatl is a better hunting weapon (for the solitary hunter against megafauna). But in terms of the Javelin, one of the few advantages over the Atlatl that I've observed is the greater amount of Kinetic energy and momentum that the Javelin has. It strikes me that the Javelin delivers significantly more energy onto the target than Atlatl darts. It delivers it slower, less accurately and with a sloping trajectory but when you do get a hit, it hits much harder. I was practicing with the javelin on cardboard boxes that is backed by a 1 inch thick sheet of ply wood. At 10 yards with the Amentum assist, the javelin's fire hardened wooden tip would often pierce completely the cardboard box, through the 1 inch of solid plywood, and end up 1-2 inches through the other side. I've never seen Atlatl darts tipped with wood or stone do that.
Thanks for watching! I'm uncertain if metal tools was the deciding factor. We have to remember that fire hardened wood tipped javelins was used in Europe up to the classical period while bone/antler tipped javelins was used up into thr dark ages. But the atlatl dissapeared thousands of years before then.
Why would atlatl darts be so weak? It's just a lever for throwing harder. You should be able to throw anything with it, from light darts to heavy spears. The only disadvantage would be the extra stick to carry around. The throwing cords, like the amentum, are smaller, lighter and easier to produce, and can throw the same weapons hard and far enough to make the atlatl unnecessary. But the bow is still a better way to throw pointy sticks.
Thanks for watching! Everything that I read about the Javelin's use in ancient warfare seems to indicate a kind of asymmetric role for this weapon. Cheap Javelins were used to disable expensive chariots and horses. It was way easier to equip and train a Peltast with Javelins then to produce an experienced archer or Slinger. During the bronze/Iron Ages at least, the Peltast had a significant advantage over both the Archer and Slinger due to having a body shield. So he could get really close to these other unarmored or lightly armored missile troops and take them out with the Javelin.
I dont think javelin phased out atlatl. Both was used at the same time, then atlatl was actually obsolete since bow started to be used. Still javelin and bow was both used since diferent thinks needs diferent tool.
Thanks for watching! I'm actually undecided on whether it was the bow or the javelin eventually displaced the atlatl. It could have been both, but we do know that the javelin, the bow, and the atlatl co-existed for tens of thousands of years but then the Atlatl dissapeared.
Thanks for watching! My understanding is that people used javelins effectively in a form of cooperative hunting where dozens, sometimes hundreds of men with the aid of dogs(and sometimes body shields) would drive game into a kill zone and turn them into pin cushions at close range with these javelins. This type of hunting was documented pretty extensively in the 19th and 20th centuries in primitive communities in Africa and Oceania. This kind of hunting was also written about in antiquity.
@@WannabeBushcrafter really? He just dissapeared of the internet. People say that he lost thousands in one day because peoole re uploaded his vids undrr their names. Then he got copied by everyone but thyr fake videos. And some like alana outdoors only gets suoscribers by getting her clothes off. And her survival skills are pathetic!?? Like building a leaf shelter in the middle of a running creek bed? To too bright huh!?
What evidence is there that javelins predate atlatls? Yes archaeologists have excavated spear-like objects dating back to 380,000 years ago but there is no direct evidence that they were thrown. In fact a lot of experimental data, and your own testimony in this video, indicates that thrown javelins make pretty terrible ranged hunting weapons, as they have a max effective range of 30 feet and are very slow. At 30 feet I can throw a hammer and hit a target, doesn't make hammers a ranged throwing weapon. Very little evidence that prehistoric humans ever relied on throwing javelins as ranged hunting technique. Evidence for throwing javelins only comes much later when humans start larger-scale warfare because javelins are very effective on high arc distance throws (which is never how you would effectively hunt).
Super frustrating to see this pop up over and over again on the internet. People romanticize prehistoric javelins way too much, a byproduct of Hollywood rewriting history. Again, just because archaeologists have dug up spears, does NOT mean they were thrown as javelins by ancient hunters. That is an unbelievably absurd leap in logic to make when considering how poor of hunting weapons javelins are.
What pig, stag, or bear is going to let you get that close to slowly chuck a javelin at it. Come on, the more and more I watch of this video the more absurd it gets.
Thanks for watching! I'm glad you asked these questions because I had nearly the same questions when making this video. So there is a large body of evidence showing javelins being used for hunting dating back at least to the Eurasian copper age in the form of pottery, reliefs, figurines. And artifacts continued through the Classical Medieval and pre-modern period showing people hunting with this weapon. There are surviving written accounts of tribes in Roman Brittannia hunting wolfs and boars in large communal hunts using dogs. But ultimately I think the best evidence is ethnographic evidence documented in the 19th and 20th centuries by Europeans of a number of indigenous cultures in Africa, South America, and Oceania using these weapons for communal hunting. So in communal hunting you have large groups of people hunting together usually with the aid of dogs to corner game. In these circumstances, Javelins are pretty effective because they are thrown on mass at targets with limited options for mobility.
@@WannabeBushcrafter right these are all metal-era historical javelins. These are not prehistoric stone age javelins. Which is precisely my point. Like none of what you said contradicts or answers anything I said, it just furthers my argument. Humans were persistence hunters first. Chase or corner animals until exhaustion and then stab them with thrusting spears or beat them with clubs. Atlatl is the first concrete evidence of a ranged hunting weapon in history, full stop. Then later javelins become more technologically efficient due to the advent of metal points and are useful as a group combat weapon. We then see this group javelin combat method applied back towards hunting, not the other way around. Again, if you simply look at what the archaeological evidence implies using a blank slate mindset and occams razor, instead of a preconceived assumption about how ancient people hunted, it's easy to see prehistoric stone age javelins as largely Hollywood conjecture.
@@angelorobledo1536 Thanks for the long reply. So there is a large body of ethnographic evidence collected by Europeans during the 19th and 20th centuries from many pre-literate, pre-metal cultures using wood and bone/antler tipped Javelins for both hunting and warfare. These cultures were in places like Africa, South America and Oceania. So the Javelin was most definitely a prehistoric hunting weapon in this context. Now the interesting thing for me is that the Romans recorded certain tribes like the Germanics, Balearics, and Proto-slavics as still using Javelins tipped with fire hardened wood and hardened bone for hunting and warfare when these cultures were already in the iron age. And it could be that the production cost of metal had to drop below a certain level before people began using it to mass produce javelin heads. With all that said, I don't know if it was the Javelin's use in hunting that led to it's use in warfare or the other way around. Nobody really knows since none of us were there. But it was used effectively for both purposes for thousands of years after the Atlatl dissapeared but well before being tipped with metal heads.
Thx for watching! Dead branches that you find in the forest are often warped due to exposure and usually either rotten if wet or inconsistly brittle if dry. It does not make good javelin shafts.
First I think your javelin sucks. Either modern javelins or ancient one from greek vases are 2-2.5m long thin pieces, 800-1400g in weight, that are carefully balanced. And you tie the amentum to the shaft. You should wrap it around in a manner that while you throw the spear the string spins the shaft (increasing accuracy) then detaches from the shaft while you holding the end of it. Amentum is not a string attached to the javelin. It is a sling you throw the spear with.
Thanks for watching! I want to point out that the Amentum(or throwing strap) is designed to be attached to the javelin, and it stays attached during the flight of the missile. What you're referring to is a lanyard that detaches from the missile during the throw. The lanyard has a stop knot and is wrapped once around a figure 7 notch carved into the fletched end of a missile. The detachable lanyard is used for launching things like Swiss arrows. The other thing, I wanted to mention is that the number of times you wrap the Amentum around the javelin has a huge impact on the stability of the launch. Any more than 1 wrap seems to result in really unstable casts and the back of the javelin often hits my hand during the throw. What worked best for me was a half wrap which resulted in consistently smooth casts and a strong spin. When there is no wrap at all, the casts were still smooth but the spin was not as strong, but not wrapping the Amentum when casting is also much faster to execute and can be done entirely with 1 hand. So I think there is a trade off that ancient javelin throwers had to consider.
The reason I love your videos is because you don’t try to come off as more experienced than you really are. You’re just really genuine and just a guy playing around and trying new things and telling us about it. It’s so refreshing, with all the self proclaimed experts and D.C. clones, No disrespect to him of course.
Thanks! I really appreciate it!
@@WannabeBushcrafter yes this is what i like too. Humility. There someone here commenting on how awesome they are and that hes the best. Thats a sure way to stop growing
atlatal : refined weapon with high penetration and momentum capable of taking out extremely large animals
amentum javelin : a rugged ranged weapon with extremely high stopping power , and it's surprisingly good at short range
staff sling : low skill weapon capable of lobbing stones and other projectiles at range you may clobber your enemy as they get closer
sling : high skill weapon that can fully maximise the human ability to throw projectiles at range , and that will be as useful as a sock at close range
Thanks for watching!
I originally found this because I was unfamiliar with the amentum. Now, I've learned more about the atlatl, as well as the javelin and its thrower. Thank you so much.
Glad it was helpful!
I love this video and I love how humble you are about all this.
Have you considered that the atlatl fell out of use because it was supplanted by the bow and arrow? Bows would have started out better for smaller prey and atlatls for bigger prey, but as bow making became more advanced and more powerful, the range of prey that were best hunted with a bow would have grown and the range of prey best hunted by atlatl would have shrunk.
Atlatls and bows fill a similar niche in warfare and hunting, being systems that balance range vs power, and require precisely-made ammunition. Javelins fill a more similar role to early firearms - a system with cheap ammunition that maximises power at the cost of range.
Makes sense that atlatls would be supplanted by bows and crossbows, and javelins by muskets.
Thanks for watching! I'm almost certain that the bow was a contributing factor to the phasing out of the Atlatl. The thing that is fascinating to me is that the Atlatl was the dominant ranged weapon system across the entire world for thousands of years (very similar to the niche that firearms takes up today). So pretty much every community or group of people across Eurasia would at some point in time have transitioned from the Atlatl to another ranged weapon. At least in Eurasia, pretty much everyone transitioned to the bow, the sling, the javelin or some combination of these 3 ranged weapons. So I think the local climate and geographical conditions probably had a lot to do with which ranged weapon a group of people would replace the Atlatl with.
Somehow I had never actually stopped to think why the atlatl fell out of use over the javelin/spear and I think all your points are really compelling. I really love how you truly put in the effort for these videos.
Thanks, I'm glad you found it helpful!
@@arctoshorriblis well all of these weapons eventually fell out of use. But i had wondered why the Atlatl spear thrower fell out of use in Eurasia so much earlier than other contemporary stone age missile weapons like the bow, javelin, and sling.
@@WannabeBushcrafter because the atlatl is a hunting weapon, personally i think your points are snot the atlatl was just for hunting id rather have an atlatl than a javelin in a hunter gatherer settlement also your atlatl dart has no fletching's and they didn't last as long because you were hitting metal cans and not a cardboard box
Man I tried doing this but the loop self tightens and the rear of the projectile whack my back of hand
Thanks for watching! I noticed while practicing with the amentum that twisting the strap around the javelin seems to destabilize the javelin and it would often hit my hand. Another thing is that the prussic loop seems to work much better than a bowline knot loop. The other thing I noticed is that unless you put your finger tip on the very edge of the loop, the javelin would not launch consistently. This is quite different from something like a swiss arrow where the throwing cord is not attached to the projectile.
By the way is the loop Intented to stay on the javelin or comes off upon release
@@HistoricalWeapons So for the Amentum, the loop is attached to the Javelin and stays with it over the course of it's flight. But for a lanyard (e.g swiss arrow), the cordage ends in an overhand knot that is wrapped around a figure 7 notch on the tail end of the dart. When the swiss dart is thrown, the lanyard stays in one's hand. One of these days I might do a video on swiss arrows and throwing lanyards, but it seems way less versatile imho when compared to the humble javelin.
@@WannabeBushcrafter I see so it’s like a handle on a javelin and not something that comes apart while throwing that’s what I was doing wrong with this loop method
@@HistoricalWeapons Yes, that's right. The amentum stays attached to the Javelin(like fletchings). The lanyard detaches from the swiss arrow(like an atlatl) during the throw.
Fascinating, I didn't know the atlatl was so accurate. As an aside, if you're trying to conserve calories, like in a survival situation you may be able to skip sharpening the tip with the knife and just char it more as you fire-harden it, and grind off the charcoal.
Thanks for watching! Yeah Atlatls are very accurate. I practiced almost daily for 3 months with the Atlatl and got to the point where I was getting 3 out of 4 shots at 30 feet on that 6 inch diameter coffee can. But I felt that I was just scratching the surface in terms of realizing the full precision potential of the weapon. I have read about people with years of practice and ultra consistent darts getting 2 inch groups at 30 feet.
Good video. Although the Atlat has its flaws, its virtues would explain in a certain way why the Aztecs and Mayas still continued to use it instead of javelins. For the Mesoamerican War, a type of shrimp known as ichcauipilli was invented. It resists most arrows and darts well, so the best option when attacking is to shoot at the most vulnerable areas of the body where there is no armor, or at short distances towards the heart and head. That being the case, higher precision and quick shots were more useful than a slower and less accurate Javelin. It also explains why the Aztecs held an annual festival called Quecholli where the darts were maintained: If, as you say, the area where the atlat goes in the dart could be damaged by a lot of use, and they could be deformed by humidity, they needed constant maintenance, while javelins no.
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts on this! Outside of Eurasia/Africa, other ranged weapons didnt quite displace the Atlatl. For the Aztecs, I heard that while they had self bows these were not of high poundage. So when there is textiles based body armor perhaps for them the Atlatl was the better weapon for penetration.
Very informative and thought-provoking comparison. At twice the range and much better accuracy the atlatl still has some great strengths but it'd be near-useless in a close range encounter. Great info!
Thanks for watching!
Tell that to the Australian Aborigines who terrified the gun wielding white settlers with their woomera/spears.
I have found darts are good CQC spears and you can hit with the spear thrower itself.
Temporally the atlatl seems to fit with the rise of humans as the dominant hunter on the planet. Spears, fire, and stone tools had been around for 100,000s of years. The combination of accuracy at extra range while still having high kinetic energy and small cross section for penetration of thick hides appears to have made the extra effort in making atlatl darts worth the effort.
Thanks for watching! I really see the Atlatl as a weapon that became dominant world wide because of a very specific set of environmental conditions. In a way the Atlatl is similar to firearms in that almost all human cultures adopted it worldwide for a significant stretch of time.
really well explained and researched, you deserve more views!
Thanks a bunch!
This is great information presentation. In the first couple of minutes I have learned how to make, balance and attach a loop to a javelin. Theres lots of videos an hour long that never even cover the core information.
Glad it was helpful!
While the atlatl could be used as an effective war weapon, its main use was for hunting large game. The javelin was only effective in face to face ego stricken warriors in masses, the atlatl being much more sniper like. It is untrue that it takes two hands to load an atlatl. These people throwing weapons at small objects on the ground are not doing justice to how the weapons were used to hit vital organs of large animals, including humans. Uhmm, rock throwing and slingshots are best weapons for ground animals. How many darts can a warrior pack compared to much heavier bulky javelins? = How many takedowns were they really after? The javelin seems to be more the blood thirsty murderous game, the feel of killing someone at close range. Likely why the javelins were kept in use during that relatively short timeline in comparison to 20,000 years of atlatl, until archery took over.
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Man it's nice seeing videos again from you. 😁
Hey, thanks! I hope to get the time to make more videos :D
Also atlatl is in the weird spot between javelin and bow and arrow in terms of performance. Was atlatl phased out roughly after bows appeared by a chance, maybe they were simply replaced by bows but javelins still ahd their niche?
Thanks for watching! Its certainly possible that Atlatl was replaced by the bow in terms of the long range usecases. Both weapons required using 2 hands, both requires difficult to make missiles. But the bow is better for most hunting situations. The bow and atlatl were contemporary weapons, both were available during the last ice age.
The bow and Atlatl have coexisted for a very long time, and in many places the Atlatl actually managed to supplant the bow as the popular hunting weapon; I personally think the big reason for Atlatls falling out of use is not Javelins, but rather advancements in bowmaking/archery.
Primitive bows and arrows were not very powerful, but over thousands of years bows were continually improved upon while the Atlatl reached it's peak form quickly and then mostly stagnated; there came a point where bows were as powerful (or at least, similarly powerful) and accurate and eventually the Atlatl just stopped being able to compete.
Meanwhile the Javelin kind of managed to just always be a useful weapon due to it's innate advantages over both these other weapon systems, (cheap, versatile, powerful, can be used entirely onehanded and doubles as a melee weapon) and even if they did ever fall out of use the concept of "throw sharp object" is so simple that it can't really be lost.
I am suddenly OBSESSED with this tool. Would you recomend soaking the sapling before heat bending? Wet enough if its from a living sapling? Any reccomended resources for straightening the shaft?
Thanks for watching! I did not soak the sapling, I just directly put the green wood over the fire. I find that because the shaft is so thick, it's actually way more forgiving to heat bend then either atlatl dart or arrow shafts. The other major difference is that once the Javelin shaft is straightened, it pretty much stays straightened for me. My Atlatl shafts needed to be repeatedly heated and straightened over the course of 3-4 days before it sticks.
As a kid i made darts , i put a nail about 200mm from the point i had another stick with string tide to it with loop on the end put loop on the nail and fired dart down our street it would fly about 80m i was about 10yrs old . must revisit it . Bernie C
Nice!
very cool time line and analysis, I am a beginner bowyer, I have 2 successful bows to my name and about 9 broken bows. -I never knew or thought about the string loop on the javelin or the weight distribution, very cool! I have to make a few now!
Thanks for watching!
This is a great video brotha - thanks for sharing with us. I grew up crafting bows, arrows, and fishing/frogging spears. This looks like fun though!
Thanks for watching! This was really fun, I have taken a real liking to Javelins.
I love your videos. ❤ Simple and down to the point. You should make more more often. If anything, it does get the brain working which gives us ideas on how to go about how to make different things using different materials for survival.
Thanks a bunch!
It would be cool if you did a video on the locations you use to test these weapons. Where do you test something like a sling or a bow that has allot of range and power? Some kind of large public forest seems like the best option, but not that convenient.
Yeah these are a few mostly empty baseball fields within a 5 min walk from my house so I use this place to test short to intermediate range weapons. For longer ranged primitive weapons like the long sling, I tend to prefer the shores of lakes the ocean or the Hudson river to do my testing.
Why specifically put the center of mass between 1/2 and 1/3 from the tip?
Thanks for watching! I read in a book that this point represent maximal throwing distance while maximizing the odds of the javelin landing point down.
@@WannabeBushcrafter I see, thank you.
Hey, the best option for finding your mid point is taking the spear on your index fingers, and bring your hands together, it will bring you to the gravitational center of your item.
Thanks for watching!
Do you have any reccomendations for learning how to throw javelin in a hunting context.
I would suggest checking out Tim Wells Bow Hunter's videos.
Great video, the finger loop reminds me of the Irish dart. Only thing missing to make it a Irish dart is a steel head an flights
Thanks for watching!
The Irish used them against Cromwell when he went to southern Ireland. The finger loop rig was held mid way on the dart, but the cord was secured just before the flights. Those darts an a celtic style sling were used, perfect range weapons due to the bogs an Marsh terrain. Horses,troops would be stuck in the armour an the heavy horse couldn't be used effectively. The irish in the area were called bog trotters or black irish by the English troops.
@@andylongmore6697 Nice! Thanks for sharing this, it sounds really cool!
Do you think it was common for early man to put a stone point or arrowhead on the front of his javelins? I'm struggling to picture the fire-hardened wooden point doing much damage to animals and opponents.
Thanks for watching! To my understanding, Javelin artifacts found from hundreds of thousands of years ago were tipped with fire hardened wood and sometimes with bone/ivory. Now in Roman times, there were written mentions of Iron age Germanic and Proto-slavic tribal nations carrying Javelins mostly tipped with charred wood or bits of hard bone(e.g Antlers), and a small number being tipped with iron heads. Fire hardened wood and bone/antler tipped javelins were found as late as the European dark ages before giving way to brass/iron heads. Now we also have a lot of ethnographic evidence in the 19th/20th century of pre-metal cultures in South America, Africa, and Oceania that used Javelins, and their javelins were pretty extensively tipped with wood or antler points.
Now I think people certainly could have tipped their javelins with knapped stone points, but in my opinion, it might not have been worth it to put such an expensive(in terms of time, resources, and skilled labor) and fragile stone point on a delivery system that was so cheap to mass produce and kind of expendable in terms of usage. That's just my $.02.
An excellent video, WB! I hope you don't mind if I chime in with a few of my own thoughts to help strengthen your points.
For example, the javelin, being just a sturdy pole may serve as multiple tools. Poles for small tipis for tanning hides or lean on shelters, as fire pokers and digging sticks, and as levers. One could lash a cross piece to make a hook to pull on dead branches for fire wood. Even tipped spears could have a butt spike to serve the formerly mentioned purposes. People say that spears are heavier for travel, and while one for one compared to darts yes, but when compared to all the other tools you'd need to carry with darts because they can't be used for anything else, a few spears aren't so bad.
The atlatl seems mostly good at only hunting because it's too specialized. Sure, woomeras sometimes served as multi tools, but from my very limited experience with those specific kinds (a lot more Australian atlatls didn't do this than one might initially think from a quick Google search. Many were just that. Throwers.) They don't do particularly well as the adzes/gouges they sometimes try to take the place of (but like I said limited success. That doesn't mean it wasn't good.) Also, such intense accuracy to me seems irrelevant when much more appropriate weapons like slings and throwing sticks are much more useful for things in trees or on the ground. The flat flight of stick projectiles forces me to be at a specific range to hit a low lying target properly, but I suppose a skidding spear wouldn't exactly leave a rabbit unharmed.
I'm glad you're using the javelin and advocating for it, despite us both concluding ultimately the ultimately serves as the better hunting weapon overall. I also hope to see more experimentation with throwing styles. I've been trying to throw "sidewinder style", trying to incorporate more across the body movement to engage the shoulders and chest more. It involves holding the javelin between the index and middle fingers, with the looped index finger on the top side. The palm faces out and the spear is held at shoulder level close to the body. It's almost like the upper arm is touching the body, and the elbow is bent 90 degrees, with the forearm pointing to the side. This allows you to flex the wrist properly so it can flick at the end of the throw, and the more across the chest. Perhaps this initial stance should change. The throw sorta involves both a pushing and chest crossing motion. I've found that this causes much better, flat flight and maybe an increase in speed, but I can't be too sure. It definitely consistently flies roughly sixty feet before skidding on the ground, though sometimes the spear is release too late and it flies to the side. It's very experimental and may not be correct. After all, why have no professional javelin throwers tried a throw similar to this? However, I think that it's possible that people just aren't thinking outside the box or willing to admit that perhaps the spear has certain advantages compared to the atlatl. Due to lack of understanding and written sources on spear usage, experimentation is the only way to know for sure.
I hope to see more progress on your throwing with the atlatl and javelin again sometime and hear any new thoughts you have on them as your skill progresses.
Thanks for sharing your POV. You made a lot of good points about other uses that the javelin can fulfill. And I agree that comparatively, the Atlatl is just too specialized as a weapon for it's own good.
Hi I recently came aware of a tool primitive/ancient used in hunting: a scaring stick. This aide helped reindeerhunters in leading the herd closer to the hunters, which compensated for the shorter range they had with their bows. The scaring sticks would be used to guide the herds along a planned path, driven by drivers who made noises and “chased” the reindeer.
The scaring sticks are really simple, a ≈1 meter stick, on one side pointy on other side a furrow. A very thin wooden flag would be attached with cordage. The movement of a row of wooden flags would scare the reindeer in avoiding them, thus being funneled to the hunter’s ambush.
They where very widespread, and used from deep time to the iron age. They have been found in Greenland, Norway, Siberia and written descriptions mention them being used by Inuit people’s when westerners came arround. A quite simple thing to craft but a very important part of how ancient people with limited primitive tools and weapons took down big prey that lived in herds.
In Norway they are found in the ice, in such a good state you could still use them. Even the wool cordage was still knotted on and flexible.
I found out about them and thought this would be something your channel could shed light on well!
Thanks for all the video’s, curious about your future projects and warm greetings from the Netherlands🇳🇱!
Thanks for watching! This scaring stick sounds interesting, Im going to look into it!
The way I think of it is that for everything the atlatl does better than the javalin, bows and crossbows did those things even better than the atlatl. They're all 2-handed, 2-part systems with extra time and attention to reload. So the atlatl lost out in that category. While the javalin (and thrown ax) survived in the simple, one-handed, also-a-hand-to-hand-weapon, just-throw-it category.
Thanks for watching! That's a great point!
Hey man . Plz tell me if you can , but ;
How do you sharpen rocks or stones into fashionable blades ?
Like the angle , the trajectory . . Does it matter ?
Would appreciate your input 🙏
Peace
Thanks for watching! I'm not much of a flint knapper. I can strike a few sharp flakes from quartz or glass but that's pretty much it. I would point you to another you tube channel called Hunt Primitive that has expertly crafted stone blades.
@@WannabeBushcrafter ty dude . You’re legendary . Ima stay watchin 🙏 peace
Just an opinion but the atlatll was probably phased out of use with introduction of the bow and arrow and the javelin was kept not so much as a thrown weapon as a short stabbing spear being , as you noted , ease of manufacture and durable in use .
Thanks for watching!
I always found the shift from these to javelins perplexing as well. Where did you get this formula to calculate the optimal balance point?
Thanks for watching! I remember learning about this formula from an old anthropology book on 20th century tribal peoples.
Marty would be proud of you.
Thx for watching!
Excellent video!!! Now I'm a javelin fan :)
Thanks, glad you liked it!
Thanks for the thorough video. Awesome tempo, a video cut to support each statement, and showing a quiet confidence.
Drop the "wannabe" moniker whenever you would like!
Are there any primitive weapons that split the difference between the atlatl and javelin? Shepherd's sling comes to mind, but lacks the missile aspect of the dart style weapons
Thanks for watching and your kind words! So I'm of the opinion that another 2 weapons largely fulfills the long range, higher precision capabilities of the Atlatl on small and medium game and this would be the bow and the hand sling. And Javelins took care of the close in deep penetration role.
@@WannabeBushcrafter thank you!! I'm passionate about self bow making and hope to continue browsing your videos and learning... I can see myself practicing some of the woodworking on making javelins and plan to apply what you showed here
the midpoint would be a Kestros or Dart, but be don't exactly know how they worked or what they looked like. Its a dart with a lead tip thrown from a slightly modified shepherds sling
I believe another midway design would be called a Plumbata. I've not played with the Kestros or the Plumbata myself but there are some good videos out there from Tod's workshop on this. I did not think of these 2 weapons as primitive weapons that would've been available during the neolithic or early copper/bronze ages however. Both of these designs seems to be military only weapons developed during the classical period.
Awesome content! So would you say that as a projectile weapon, atlatl outperforms a Javelin, but since better projectile weapons like bow, crossbow, and eventually guns were developed, the Atlatl lost its place but Javelin could still be used due to its low cost to make/maintain and versatility?
If this is the case, if we were to compare only the projectile weapons ranging from javelin to guns, would you say that the Atlatl is the easiest to make/maintain and best performing (best bang for the buck in terms of labor to performance) projectile weapon out there?
He just said that the javelin is the easiest to both make and maintain. And I dont see how is that even a question?
Its just a stick cut to length and sharpened on one end xD
The answer to your second question is clearly a gun, since its so easy to make today and you didnt specify which kind of gun, so a matchlock it is, since its very easy to whip one up in no time.
If you wanted to really make it from scratch, then almost any gun is out of the question for mos people, simply because it would be too unsafe to use, unless youre a good blacksmith or a great brass casting guy.
In that case, bows would be the best bet, since theyre the easiest to learn. However, like atlatls, projectiles are a pain. You constantly need repairs and new ones...
Also, there is the obvious problem of string making for a bow.
If you dont know how to make an adequate sting, you cant make a bow.
P.S. I have to add that a branch bow can be good enough to use for small game and requires absolutely no work besides cutting a branch and whitlling two nocks. You still need a string though...
And arrows :D
Thanks for watching! I think firearms overpowers every other muscle powered range weapons by far. With that said, I think there is a kind of complimentary synergy between the sling, the bow, and perhaps the Javelin. They were used for different purposes but as part of a single package of missile weapons for thousands of years.
@@dan_the_dj thanks for watching!
@@WannabeBushcrafter thanks for making the video!
I tend to forget most of these tools you post about existed 🤣
Well, not really, but Its nice to get reminded there are some quick projects one can undertake every now and then :D
@@WannabeBushcrafter Thanks for replying! That's interesting! I previously thought Atlatl would be the most bang for the buck in terms of simplicity and effectiveness for projectile weapons, but I went and watched your video on it and thought it was interesting how much work actually went into actually making and maintaining the darts. I've made and played around with sling and Javelin but not yet with Atlatl and bow and thought it was cool to see all the comparisons and connections you make with different projectile weapons! Please keep making these videos, they're really interesting!
Blunt Tip is better because rarely the point break skin
Thanks for watching!
But like you said 2 pounds in the face really hurts. :)
Can u make a video on the uchiya weapon its a Japanese weapon but i seen it in Indias history's its a cylinder (kinda like a pipe or flute) and u put arrow in and swing it like a baseball bat
Thanks for the idea, I'll check it out!
Big stick reign Supreme
Heck yeah!
Definitely seems like an easier way to get a serviceable throwing weapon at least, relative to how much simpler it is to make. I'm surprised at the sheer accuracy difference, given all the trouble you brought up in that earlier video regarding the accuracy of unfletched atlatl darts.
Though the mention of fletched javelins being a thing once again has me tempted to ask how well both the atlatl darts and that javelin might take to having fletching on them, and curious how well birchbark would work as a decent wilderness source for such. I could've SWORN I'd posted a comment to the effect of "I'm curious how well it'd work with fletching" in the atlatl video and that a reply led to pondering the idea of birchbark as one potential source of material for it (since if you actually needed it in a survival situation feathers and duct tape might not be an option), but can't find it. XD
Thanks for watching! I was curious about that very question so I took one Javelin and lashed onto it first some dried long grass and then later some sea gull feathers. It definitely made the Javelin's flight more stable at longer ranges then when unfletched. You could worry less about the cast itself introducing instability to the Javelin because the fletching compensated for it. However, I did not notice any significant improvements in accuracy within 30 feet between unfletched and fletched Javelins. It seems to me at least that the Atlatl is inherently more precise than the Javelin because the only point of contact where force is applied is on the spur itself. Where as for the javelin the point of contact is the palm of your throwing hand, your fingers, and the amentum loop. So there just seems to be way more contact points that could be slightly different from shot to shot with the Javelin. And this inconsistency IMHO affects the accuracy significantly.
@@WannabeBushcrafter Nice, definitely interesting findings!
@@chaosvolt thanks!
I wonder if the extinction of megafauna drove the disuse of the atlatl?
Thanks for watching! That is my theory as well. That there really wasn't any advantages to the atlatl after the megafauna died out. For close in work you had the Javelin, and for distance shots you have the bow or sling. And these weapons just suited the new environment better.
Maybe you can achieve greater precision with the addition of fetching?
Thanks for watching, I actually tried that with both grass as well as feathers. What I found was that the feathers made it easier to get off good throws where the Javelin lands point down even when my technique or form was bad. But in terms of precision within 30 feet, I did not notice any improvements.
You could use that spear with the atlatl, just put the hook in the rope loop
Thanks for watching!
I live somewhere that continues to use atlatls for a long time after other places had stopped. Looking at the plants that grow here i wonder if the change was that in harder conditions the thicker trees, even sapplings, didnt grow as well as smaller scrub like ones. So a weapon that took more skill to make but could use smaller trees and/or branches and the use of fire to straighten them was favored. Then when places warmed and growing conditions most places allowed for better tree growth it was dropped for the old theowing spears again exept in scrub lands without easy access to the right materials.
That's a very interesting theory. I often wonder if it was a combination of different factors that resulted in the abandonment of the atlatl in a particular area. And it could be that the combination of factors were different depending on the region. For some places it could be the lack of appropriate game or materials, for other places it could be the availability of more effective weapon designs.
@WannabeBushcrafter my home state does have a lot of small game. Rabbits and birds with some larger game, so the game size could very well mean that going with the smaller darts made sense.
Yes great video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Really informative
Glad it was helpful!
@@WannabeBushcrafter always. Usefull Information is better than boasting about yourself like most do.
Acriballistics is a humble dude. But has usefull info. Do you by change have his video on slow motiin tracking of his sling. Its realky helped me but i just cant find it again
You are a true Bushcraft Enjoyer.
You got that right!
I'm sure the absence of mega fauna had something to do with it.
Yes, I think so too.
Did the pre-Atlatl Javelins have the range extender string? If that was invented after the Atlatl then it would all make sense.
Thanks for watching! That's a good question and it's hard to tell for sure because cordage is organic and thus biodegradable so there really haven't been any archeological evidence from the stone age of it's use.
Its good for its range right?
Yes very good for it's effective range.
@@WannabeBushcrafter I wouldn't be surprised why soldiers would prefer the javelin than an atlatl🔥
The shortcoming of the Javalin is for small game.
And that is a better choice for the survival hunter,IMNSHO.
But I agree it is easier to make,my use has been easier than yours with the atlatyl.
Thanks for watching!
I like both, and i understand your logic, but when you hit good with the atlatl is like 3 times stronger shot, javelin feels like can't penetrate animals
Thanks for watching! I also think the Atlatl is a better hunting weapon (for the solitary hunter against megafauna). But in terms of the Javelin, one of the few advantages over the Atlatl that I've observed is the greater amount of Kinetic energy and momentum that the Javelin has. It strikes me that the Javelin delivers significantly more energy onto the target than Atlatl darts. It delivers it slower, less accurately and with a sloping trajectory but when you do get a hit, it hits much harder. I was practicing with the javelin on cardboard boxes that is backed by a 1 inch thick sheet of ply wood. At 10 yards with the Amentum assist, the javelin's fire hardened wooden tip would often pierce completely the cardboard box, through the 1 inch of solid plywood, and end up 1-2 inches through the other side. I've never seen Atlatl darts tipped with wood or stone do that.
Great video though!
Glad you enjoyed it
What about Australian woomera?
Thanks for watching! The Australian woomera is a variant of the Atlatl design.
I can see how the javelin predates the atlatl. It's just a spear thrown by hand rather than being thrown from a lever.
Thanks for watching!
6:07 natural history museum in vienna
Nice!
I wonder if the atlatl was phased out as metal woodworking tools and metal javelin tips became more prevalent.
Thanks for watching! I'm uncertain if metal tools was the deciding factor. We have to remember that fire hardened wood tipped javelins was used in Europe up to the classical period while bone/antler tipped javelins was used up into thr dark ages. But the atlatl dissapeared thousands of years before then.
You should check bout my video on alternative atlatl fletching
Nice I will!
Why would atlatl darts be so weak? It's just a lever for throwing harder. You should be able to throw anything with it, from light darts to heavy spears.
The only disadvantage would be the extra stick to carry around. The throwing cords, like the amentum, are smaller, lighter and easier to produce, and can throw the same weapons hard and far enough to make the atlatl unnecessary.
But the bow is still a better way to throw pointy sticks.
Lol I've been asking myself this question for a long time now... Crazy how theres actually someone on the internet that made a video on this.
Thanks for watching!
Interesting. I think javelins also had the advantage against armored opponents.
Thanks for watching! Everything that I read about the Javelin's use in ancient warfare seems to indicate a kind of asymmetric role for this weapon. Cheap Javelins were used to disable expensive chariots and horses. It was way easier to equip and train a Peltast with Javelins then to produce an experienced archer or Slinger. During the bronze/Iron Ages at least, the Peltast had a significant advantage over both the Archer and Slinger due to having a body shield. So he could get really close to these other unarmored or lightly armored missile troops and take them out with the Javelin.
Groovy.
Thanks for watching!
I dont think javelin phased out atlatl. Both was used at the same time, then atlatl was actually obsolete since bow started to be used. Still javelin and bow was both used since diferent thinks needs diferent tool.
Thanks for watching! I'm actually undecided on whether it was the bow or the javelin eventually displaced the atlatl. It could have been both, but we do know that the javelin, the bow, and the atlatl co-existed for tens of thousands of years but then the Atlatl dissapeared.
The javelin: The AK-47 of the ancient world... besides the sling
The javelin: The longest used weapon of the ancient world... besides the sling
Thanks for watching! In a way, the Javelin was the Javelin of the ancient world.
I remember my first 🍺
Thanks for watching!
That being siad clever traps
"more than good enough for hunting bears"
its hard to imagine anyone having the balls to throw this at a bear :D
Thanks for watching! My understanding is that people used javelins effectively in a form of cooperative hunting where dozens, sometimes hundreds of men with the aid of dogs(and sometimes body shields) would drive game into a kill zone and turn them into pin cushions at close range with these javelins. This type of hunting was documented pretty extensively in the 19th and 20th centuries in primitive communities in Africa and Oceania. This kind of hunting was also written about in antiquity.
Ever watched primitive technology? John plants just dissapeared cos everyone copied his vids
Thanks for watching! Yeah I enjoy primitive technology's videos. He started making them again recently.
@@WannabeBushcrafter really? He just dissapeared of the internet. People say that he lost thousands in one day because peoole re uploaded his vids undrr their names. Then he got copied by everyone but thyr fake videos. And some like alana outdoors only gets suoscribers by getting her clothes off. And her survival skills are pathetic!?? Like building a leaf shelter in the middle of a running creek bed? To too bright huh!?
What evidence is there that javelins predate atlatls? Yes archaeologists have excavated spear-like objects dating back to 380,000 years ago but there is no direct evidence that they were thrown. In fact a lot of experimental data, and your own testimony in this video, indicates that thrown javelins make pretty terrible ranged hunting weapons, as they have a max effective range of 30 feet and are very slow. At 30 feet I can throw a hammer and hit a target, doesn't make hammers a ranged throwing weapon. Very little evidence that prehistoric humans ever relied on throwing javelins as ranged hunting technique. Evidence for throwing javelins only comes much later when humans start larger-scale warfare because javelins are very effective on high arc distance throws (which is never how you would effectively hunt).
Super frustrating to see this pop up over and over again on the internet. People romanticize prehistoric javelins way too much, a byproduct of Hollywood rewriting history. Again, just because archaeologists have dug up spears, does NOT mean they were thrown as javelins by ancient hunters. That is an unbelievably absurd leap in logic to make when considering how poor of hunting weapons javelins are.
What pig, stag, or bear is going to let you get that close to slowly chuck a javelin at it. Come on, the more and more I watch of this video the more absurd it gets.
Thanks for watching! I'm glad you asked these questions because I had nearly the same questions when making this video. So there is a large body of evidence showing javelins being used for hunting dating back at least to the Eurasian copper age in the form of pottery, reliefs, figurines. And artifacts continued through the Classical Medieval and pre-modern period showing people hunting with this weapon. There are surviving written accounts of tribes in Roman Brittannia hunting wolfs and boars in large communal hunts using dogs. But ultimately I think the best evidence is ethnographic evidence documented in the 19th and 20th centuries by Europeans of a number of indigenous cultures in Africa, South America, and Oceania using these weapons for communal hunting. So in communal hunting you have large groups of people hunting together usually with the aid of dogs to corner game. In these circumstances, Javelins are pretty effective because they are thrown on mass at targets with limited options for mobility.
@@WannabeBushcrafter right these are all metal-era historical javelins. These are not prehistoric stone age javelins. Which is precisely my point. Like none of what you said contradicts or answers anything I said, it just furthers my argument. Humans were persistence hunters first. Chase or corner animals until exhaustion and then stab them with thrusting spears or beat them with clubs. Atlatl is the first concrete evidence of a ranged hunting weapon in history, full stop. Then later javelins become more technologically efficient due to the advent of metal points and are useful as a group combat weapon. We then see this group javelin combat method applied back towards hunting, not the other way around.
Again, if you simply look at what the archaeological evidence implies using a blank slate mindset and occams razor, instead of a preconceived assumption about how ancient people hunted, it's easy to see prehistoric stone age javelins as largely Hollywood conjecture.
@@angelorobledo1536 Thanks for the long reply. So there is a large body of ethnographic evidence collected by Europeans during the 19th and 20th centuries from many pre-literate, pre-metal cultures using wood and bone/antler tipped Javelins for both hunting and warfare. These cultures were in places like Africa, South America and Oceania. So the Javelin was most definitely a prehistoric hunting weapon in this context. Now the interesting thing for me is that the Romans recorded certain tribes like the Germanics, Balearics, and Proto-slavics as still using Javelins tipped with fire hardened wood and hardened bone for hunting and warfare when these cultures were already in the iron age. And it could be that the production cost of metal had to drop below a certain level before people began using it to mass produce javelin heads. With all that said, I don't know if it was the Javelin's use in hunting that led to it's use in warfare or the other way around. Nobody really knows since none of us were there. But it was used effectively for both purposes for thousands of years after the Atlatl dissapeared but well before being tipped with metal heads.
😁😍
Thanks for watching!
This guy cut down a baby tree instead of just finding a branch
Thx for watching! Dead branches that you find in the forest are often warped due to exposure and usually either rotten if wet or inconsistly brittle if dry. It does not make good javelin shafts.
First I think your javelin sucks. Either modern javelins or ancient one from greek vases are 2-2.5m long thin pieces, 800-1400g in weight, that are carefully balanced. And you tie the amentum to the shaft. You should wrap it around in a manner that while you throw the spear the string spins the shaft (increasing accuracy) then detaches from the shaft while you holding the end of it. Amentum is not a string attached to the javelin. It is a sling you throw the spear with.
Thanks for watching! I want to point out that the Amentum(or throwing strap) is designed to be attached to the javelin, and it stays attached during the flight of the missile. What you're referring to is a lanyard that detaches from the missile during the throw. The lanyard has a stop knot and is wrapped once around a figure 7 notch carved into the fletched end of a missile. The detachable lanyard is used for launching things like Swiss arrows. The other thing, I wanted to mention is that the number of times you wrap the Amentum around the javelin has a huge impact on the stability of the launch. Any more than 1 wrap seems to result in really unstable casts and the back of the javelin often hits my hand during the throw. What worked best for me was a half wrap which resulted in consistently smooth casts and a strong spin. When there is no wrap at all, the casts were still smooth but the spin was not as strong, but not wrapping the Amentum when casting is also much faster to execute and can be done entirely with 1 hand. So I think there is a trade off that ancient javelin throwers had to consider.
Serve un impennaggio posteriore per stabilizzare il volo.
Thanks for watching! Believe it or not the Amentum itself was acting as a kind of stabilizer for the javelin.