I met the actor who played Buffalo Bill at a shop. I just jump up and down and hugged him. He even quoted a few lines for me. A woman passed us, saw him, screamed, and ran away. He told me "that happens." We both laughed about it. He was really nice.
I don't know anything about the actor's real life but it amuses me to think that he is married and that the following banter happens at his house , BB actor Ted Levine- "It puts dinner on the table or it gets the hose." Wife of Ted Levine -"It stops acting creepy or it gets taken for every nickel in divorce court!"
Yeah, easy to remember. Just like the most expensive horror movie of all time, everyone’s favorite: Van Helsing. $222 million budget (adjusted). Throw money at anything and it’s an instant classic.
@@justthinking650 I know, this movie was genius. Believe it or not, Gene Siskel gave it two out of four stars originally. I looked it up on Rotten Tomatoes and his comment was “Foster’s character, who is appealing, is dwarfed by the monsters she’s after. I’d rather see her work on another case.” Wasn’t that the whole point of the movie? She’s not even a rookie yet because she’s still a trainee and they throw her into the biggest manhunt and liaison with one of the most notorious serial killers.
@@Cooper-qp6bo yeah, you're 100% right. It seems he missed the whole idea... and this guy is supposed to be a movie expert! Sounds like a bit of a joke to me. You make a good point... cheers mate.
You missed the point of the lamb chops as dinner. He sublimated his desire to consume Clarice, oddly out of real love, and ordered the next best thing, given her story about the screaming lambs.
How would Lecter have a desire to consume Clarice when he eats the rude? He doesn't consider Clarice to be rude, that is the entire reason he gives her his attention in the first place. I think the lamb chops were supposed to be an homage to her story, that is how I have always looked at it.
@@Tauramehtar I don’t think his menu is only the rude. The Census taker for instance. Lecter’s desire is to consume and there are different reasons why. The violinist wasn’t rude per se, just incompetent. And he wasn’t enamored with Clarice until her story developed. At first he considered her rude by extension from Crawford. That’s the genius of it. He finally has a ‘positive’ relationship with someone and combats his nature by subbing out the extra rare lamb chops.
That and many other things helped him make a character that is truly disturbing to watch, even all these years later,it's still a fascinating look at a great performance by Sir Anthony Hopkins!
Lol.... He's still a short, tubby little Welshman.... I just don't see anything disturbing about him in this movie. His portrayal of Othello for the BBC was much more "disturbing". But then I still think Jack Nicholson's Joker is still the best ever!!!
He ordered lamb chops because of Clarice's story of the screaming lambs going to slaughter. He was silencing the screams by eating the lambs. A twisted sense of humour or just an attempt to help her be rid of the screams.
He was externalizing her trauma playing mind games with her as he did with Bill, but he did care about her,, he used her to escape and as a favor he delivered him to her, it was an even exchange. After being freed he could have stalked and ate her too but he had other livers to eat
The real problem with the theory, as far as the movie is concerned, anyway, is that Jame Gumb was never a patient of Dr. Lecter. Lecter says he "only met him once", and that he was the lover of his actual patient, Benjamin Raspale.
Ya, but lector wouldn't tell them that if it were true. I'm liking this theory. Basically, he pushes a guy to edge (or several) with only lector's continuing uninterrupted 'therapy' sessions holding him (them) back. When lector gets arrested, it's only a matter of time before the subject falls. And, I like the idea lector sets up several candidates for insurance of effectiveness.
@@factanonverba7547 turning his patients into possible serial killers that he could use to bargain for better living conditions and possible escapes. Clearly Hannibal must’ve realised he would get captured due to his level of insanity and need to dissect and eat his victims.
@@factanonverba7547 Yeah, but Lecter would still need Buffalo Bill to kidnap someone high profile-a senator’s daughter. That’s a huge hole in this theory. He wouldn’t have gotten a deal otherwise-even Lecter didn’t have that kind of foresight.
@@cruddddddddddddddd true, but maybe he presumed the kidnappings would be gruesome and prolific. Given a high enough body count, they would have dealed. Remember, they were already in contact with hannibal when the vip was kidnapped, so they were on the first step of the process.
A theory is that Raspail shared what was said in sessions with Lecter to Jame. Especially about the “struggles” Jame had with his sexuality. Whereas, Lecter planted “ideas” in Raspail to distort his perspective of his relationship with Jame. Lecter’s manipulation of people. Like how he kept trying to plant inappropriate ideas in Clarice’s childhood memories with her uncle.
That is true. It has been years since I read the book or seen the movie and I almost forgot that point. As I recall Lector said he was treating Raspail who had mentioned Bill killing a transient and doing things with his skin and he had become afraid of him. If I remember right it was Raspail's head that was in the back of that old car in the storage locker and Lector said he as a garden variety, manic depressive.
And also as a character reveal for him: after hearing that tragic story, Lecter is not moved by sympathy for the poor animals. Hearing about lambs being slaughtered just makes him hungry for lamb chops.
He did, that’s why he asked if the lambs have stopped screaming. .... j Crawford told her not to reveal anything personal “you don’t want him in your head” he used that to toy with her.
After my friend pointed it out to me, I've come to believe that Hannibal always knew who Buffalo Bill was because of the way he says Belvedere when he describes one of his drawings: "That's the Duomo seen from the Bel-ve-dere." "All that detail from memory, Doctor?" "Memory, Agent Starling, is what I have instead of a view." It's later revealed that BB is taking up residence in the old Lipmann place in Belvedere, OH. Hannibal has always had a rye sense of humor, so why not throw out the biggest clue at the jump? He claimed Dr. Chilton enjoyed his petty torments but Hannibal was and always will be the ultimate tormentor. They're all over the place in the book and the film. Besides, the only proof that BB wasn't Lecter's patient came directly from Lecter, and he's not above lying to get what he wants.
This film was so groundbreaking.. that they showed it at schools to show how serial killers think and "work". However.. Jame was Raspail's ex-lover.. and Raspail had told Lecter about him .. and Lecter figured it all out. Lecter in no way did anything to him. The only patient we know he manipulated was Mason Verger, and he was manipulated to hurting himself.
Well Buffalo Bill was based on 3 real serial killers John Douglass FBI- Glenn in the movie-had studied. A good psychiatrist can get to know how/who people are ,without meeting them in person ,through his patients,how they describe they talk about him/her,through the patient´s relationship with them.He got to know many intimate things,the psychology of Bill through Raspail.
@@sonnycheeba4536, all three of the Hannibal Lector books have that stuff in them. However Mason is the only patient he really manipulated into harming either self or others. Jame killed Raspail.
Two things to add that might support this theory: - we know Lecter is capable of driving a man to kill himself just by whispering to him. He did that to "Multiple Miggs" in the adjacent cell. So, it stands to reason that he should be able to drive a man to become a serial killer if he wanted to. - In his first meeting with Clarice one of the things their conversation hits on are Lecter's drawings. On one of them Lecter remarks, "That is the Duomo as seen from the Belvedere." referring to his drawing of a tower in Florence, Italy. And it turns out Clarice eventually finds Jame Gumb in his hometown...of Belvedere, Ohio. Was Lecter giving Clarice a clue from the beginning? If so, he drew that picture in anticipation of the FBI sending someone to seek help from him to find Buffalo Bill and Lecter was waiting to spring that little clue. Diabolical! (And what about those other drawings of his? If we play along with this theory, did they all contain clues, perhaps to some other killers' identities?)
I believe the theory probably is partially derived from the Hannibal show rather then purely from the books or movie. Since in the show he has manipulated people a lot more into long term schemes though I don't believe the book truly touches on those subjects.
While I don't support the theory, you'd really only need the fact that minds such as Hannibals are always manipulating outcomes, emotions and testing their techniques for entertainment and energy. He would have likely said all kinds of things in session to his client just to see how long his malfeasance could reach. jAME wouldn't have been a special case of secondhand puppetry, Hannibal would have had human experiments in all of the relationships he had with people. Waiting for others to catch up in conversation leaves a calculated mind with time on their hands. A mind raised early in terror will always be running multiple plays at warp speed and checking all the angles. It's forever a feral cat. Whether it stalks, hunts and strikes, or constantly skidders away will depend on the feline but they'll never lose that early notion that this world is filled with two types. Either you are predator or by default you are prey.
But Jame Gumb was never Lecter's patient, was he? Lecter's patient was Benjamin Raspail, Gumb's lover. It's indicated that Lecter met Gumb at some point, presumably through Raspail, but doesn't say where or how. Since Gumb killed Raspail and Lecter found the head, it's indicated Lecter did investigating of his own after Raspail disappeared, and perhaps met Gumb while doing so. This makes it less likely that Lecter knowingly created Jame Gumb's fantasizing about transsexualism, but its likely Lecter noted Gumb's pathology and made a mental note that it could be useful information if he ever was caught, and his plan worked. It's hinted Lecter did this with a few dangerous cases and there were other killers out there that he kept in mind
Hannibal had the lamb chops as a subtle jab at Clarice. That’s so very him. Even if she never knew The audience did. We know Hannibal was able to learn of Clarice’s deepest trauma during their ‘Quid pro quo’. She agreed with Dr. Lecter when asked if she could still remember the screaming of the lambs. I think her triumph in capturing Buffalo Bill as well as the ordeal surrounding it did silence those lambs for Clarice. Hence the name of the book/film The Silence of the Lambs.
@@stevengriffin5349 I wasn’t aware that Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins did not speak during the filing. However I’m willing to speculate before I search it! I would guess for authenticity. They only ever knew each other as Clarice and Hannibal. That might make for more realistic reactions in their scenes together. Once immersed in their roles they would behave be as authentic as possible sans acting. So, Tony wouldn’t have been pals with Jodie. I think this was two actors on their game. Hopefully they were able to come an amicable understanding. Let’s see how wrong I was hahaha
Hahaha I was so wrong! 🤭 Google says, “Jodie Foster Didn't Speak to Anthony Hopkins on “Silence of the Lambs” Until the Last Day of Filming. ... It turns out that during the making of The Silence of the Lambs, Jodie Foster was so terrified of Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter that she avoided him and never actually spoke to him until the last day of filming” Ok so all of this was just explained. Forgive me I’ve watched a few YTs on this film/Book the past few weeks. I think my forgetful brain was still on track 😅 authenticity. Even if she wasn’t able to speak to him because she was frightened that just makes it all the more real. Timeless really. (Especially every Halloween and Census)
@@bonitadiablo That one episode where Adrian had to go out into the woods? I held my breath the entire time waiting for Levine's character-- I've forgotten the name-- to tell Adrian to rub the lotion on his skin. Like, calamine, for poison sumac.
This is something that really bugs the hell out of me when it comes to how people rationalize what it is that Hannibal does. He doesn't make monsters of man...he simply sees people for what they really are beneath their assorted masks and layers of suits made of human skin.
Hopkins was so effective in his role that, off set, Foster intentionally avoided him...because he genuinely creeped her out. They never had a conversation after their initial meeting.
"It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this when its told. It rubs the lotion in its skin, or else it gets the hose. And when its done, there's one more thing, a simple little task it. Put the f***ing lotion in the basket." Silence! The Musical
The Lamb Chop dinner had nothing to do with using a bone to pick the lock. He had Dr. Chiltons pen he stole for that. The lamb chops were specifically because of his obsession/fascination with Clarice and her story of the spring lambs that were screaming as they were being slaughtered and how it made her flee. Lecter's fascination with Clarice was evident from the beginning. He hated rude people. As long as you were not rude or uncivil he wouldn't harm you. Look at Barney the orderly. He once broke Lecters arm when he attacked a nurse but yet Lecter had no ill will towards him because he knew Barney was just doing his job and most importantly Barney was respectful to him. Barney even says it as much when he says that he and Lecter share a mutual respect for each other and Lecter would not harm him.He was amazed at her intelligence that as a trainee she was trusted enough to come to him rather then a behavioral analyst from the FBI. He told her early on that she was doing well and had "been courteous and receptive to courtesy and that she had established trust with the embarrassing detail of Miggs" We later see him concerned about her wound and he is happy the bleeding has stopped and offers her a towel to dry off. He helps her throughout the case. We see in the follow up movies that he cuts his own hand off after she cuffs him to her rather then hurt her. Interestingly, for those who read the novel you know that Clarice and Hannibal end up together as a couple in the book.
We do know that in "Hannibal" (2001 movie) Lecter intentionally encouraged his patient Mason Verger to cut his own face off, leaving him horribly deformed. You could believe that in his practice he probably used his power as a doctor for evil acts to satisfy his depravity. But as others have commented, his influence on Gumb was limited because they had no doctor-patient relationship.
Apples and oranges. Lecter never knew Jame Gumb in the first place. As for Mason, we don’t exactly know Lecter’s reasons for the torment he inflicted on him. I speculate that Lecter despised Mason’s extreme pedophilia and having to give him “treatments” while knowing Mason was irredeemable.
Yes, because he knew that Mason is a pedophile... And he offered drug to Mason who took it happily. Quite different concepts. Bufallo Bill was created by Jame Gumb and not by Lecter.
- Lecter was not Gumb's psychiatrist, he was Benjamin Raspail's. Gumb only met Lecter once. Lecter killed Raspail due to his 'whining' and incessant talking about Gumb - Lecter had been in jail and then prison for 8 or 9 years before the Buffalo Bill case - As pointed out, Clarice is not the one who gets Lecter transferred. He's clearly shown in the movie to be an opportunist who utilises minor mistakes made by guards to make his escape. - Lecter eats rare lamb before his escape to taunt Clarice/because he has had Clarice and her lamb story on his mind.
I read the book sooo many times I love it 13 years ago I found a dr lector T-shirt at Walmart for 1,99 and I bought one for my husband we wore them on my birthday anyways we separated 10 years so I forgot about the shirts last year he passed away and when my sons looked threw his clothes they found that shirt i bought him it ,,made me cry and broke my heart that for so many years he kept that shirt ..now I have it and sleep in it gives me comfort
Lector is a psychopath - any action, or inaction, he takes is done is satisfy his own needs and desires. He didn't program Gumm into becoming a killer; he recognised that Gumm would become a killer and Lector was curious, and indifferent, to the damage he would do. Lamb chops because of Clarice's traumatic childhood experience on her uncle's farm.
@DGraySon77 from what I understand, he’s a mixture of both and yet neither. “There are no words for what he is... except monstrous” or something like that
I think that the good Doc ordered lamb chops because he wanted to get under Starling's skin. He orders them after she tells him her story of trying and failing to save a lamb. A psychological dig at her. Oh he is so go at that...
@@davemoskot1776 No no my creepy friend. I am a lot closer to this than you want to know...ha ha...Actually, I am a writer who spent time with FBI profilers for research. We discussed this film and the nuances of Doc and the mind games he plays with Starling.
What shocks me the most is that Ted Levine played Monk's boss, Stottlemeyer and even tho I watched The Silence of the Lambs a lot of times, I never realized it was the same actor =O The power of transformation of a good mustache!
3:30 idk about that unless it says it in the books. But the info we have from movies that are from the books. Buffalo bill wasn't his subject but the boyfriend of one of his patients, who he later found murdered by him after he was told about him. Much like the musician in the series who was friends with his patient not his patient so the theory dies their.
"The Silence of the Lambs" is one of my all-time favorite movies and I am open to anything, although, sorry, I am not buying into this theory at all. One personal theory I have, however, is that Buffalo Bill got the first shot off and missed during the showdown with Clarice Starling at the end. Pay close attention and you'll see that the first muzzle flash comes from the frontal angle of Buffalo Bill.
This movie is a perfect grotesque artwork. Foster and Sir Hopkins are well chosen for the characters. I also love the dark unconvinient feeling , cold, wet, and dirty. References to lambs and butterflies are all over the movie, whether it is a butterfly in the background, nor lamb shaped objects placed. Jonathan Demme put alot of "tasks" for the different style of analysis ( mimic, gesture, dialogue, blink or you will miss it moments) All in all, it is great.
I always assumed he ordered the lamb chops, extra bloody, as some kind of sick tribute to the story Clarice shared with him right before this, about her hearing the lambs screaming.
Yeah I don’t think it was something Lecter planned as a bargaining chip, especially since buffalo bill was never directly his patient. I think it’s more accurate to say Lecter’s pleasure was to encourage psychopathy in everyone he met, usually by digging at childhood trauma which he found through regular therapeutic techniques. This is probably what he was doing with Clarise and I always got the impression that part of his fascination with her was that he felt she should be or could be a violent psychopath but took a left turn and never quite got there, so he was always trying to nudge her “back on the path.” I always thought he did this because deep down he wanted to prove everyone was like him or could be, albeit less effective and intelligent from his perspective since he was a classic narcissist. If anything I think he was obsessed with proving he wasn’t uniquely a monster, just uniquely good at being the kind of monster anyone could become.
James Gumm wasn't really Lectors patient, it was James Gumm's boyfriend from what he said they only met once before James Gumm killed his boyfriend and stored his head. Lector knew he was crazy but the even of his release was just chance perhaps.
This only works if Lecter planned on BB’s victim being someone as high profile as a senator’s daughter-ppl cared about catching BB, but the senator only made the deal bc it was her daughter. So slight hole in the theory, though it was a fun one (I’ve read the book twice-big Harris fan)
Instead of speculating on Hannibal Lectors motives in regards to Buffalo Bill and their pathology, why not ask Thomas Harris? It's his creation and would absolutely know his characters.
I don't buy the theory. Lecter is manipulative for a host of reasons, but he's not clairvoyant. If he's not smart enough to avoid getting caught, then how would he be clever enough to create this elaborate insurance policy?
It's not that hard,you don't need clearvoyance you only need to know people predictability and even if you make you're plans with the risk of getting cought you can stil set someone up down the line to get you're way,it's not a Shure thing but it's a prediction based on current knowledge.
My boyfriend doesn’t speak English but I showed him this movie and he laughed at that part when he said ,oh wait was she a great big fat person!! I told him what it meant in Spanish and now he says it all the time I’m like ,,honey it was a movie u can’t say that to people it’s rude and not nice !!!hahaha
To be honest, I think that many of the men who are so adamantly insisting that they are women, despite having XY chromosomes, having male tendencies like extreme competitiveness , being fascinated with female bodies, and wanting to elbow them out of the picture by simply calling women "non-men" (WTF???) these folks get violent when you simply say "you are a MAN and not a WOMAN, and you do not have a female brain and you simply prefer the female role in normal human society OR you get off on the idea of being a desirable woman you want to have sexual intercourse with, while hating your male body that longs for female presence, but mommy issues seem to get in the way, especially if you were raised in a single parent house....so they actually stick lifelike breasts on your chest, dress like Audrey Hepburn, keep your junk, and watch yourself in the mirror playing with both things, because the bosom has no sensation, just like a woman you make love to, you don't care what they feel because as a man the female breasts have no sensation. Just like as women, we don't feel whatever goes on in a man's brain when you are touching their parts. But female desire isn't really about feeling a guy's junk,.... sorry, I rambled. Strange.
@@rv2167 the third season is very convoluted. Doesn't really have a clear path like season 1 and 2. Almost like they ran out of good stories to tell, and they just winged it. That's just me. Watch it and see what you think.
This is the result of overthinking lol... I'm not onboard. I am onboard with Lector being aware of Buff's tendencies and thus adjusting and acting on that to in fact get what he wanted. But to surmise that he played that game from the start is quite ridiculous imo. Because that's saying Lector assumes he will be caught. Which for a man of his intellect is ridiculous
100% agree this is possible. In the book Hannibal, the character is said to be from a very old family, have many passports, and he moved through the world acquiring possessions in a way where money’s no object. All of that suggests that nothing’s off the table
Yeah. It's been a while but I recall they show him palming part of the pen, then during the transfer, Chilton has to sign something and can't find his pen. I have no idea where the person behind this theory got that he used the bone. Also, wouldn't they debone his food so he couldn't use the bone as a weapon, or at least, make sure they got the bone when they collected the plate? Given all the rules for interacting with him, I would think so. I mean, theoretically, he could kill someone with that bone.
The pen was on a table when Lecter was in a straight-jacket. Later it does show him with a piece of the pen palmed in his hand, but never explains how he got it off the table.
I came to a similar conclusion when I re-watched the movie after seeing the TV series. It is not so much that Hannibal was thinking about how he could leverage cases to make life easier on himself if he gets caught, it is more about being needed by the very people who have him captive.
IMHO this is one of the best book to film adaptations. I read the books, then heard about the movie coming, and I thought it was going to be impossible to do it right. I am so happy they did.
I’d you watch the show “Hannibal” you will see how plausible this theory actually is. Throughout that series Hannibal manipulates everyone around him to attain his final wish. He spends years manipulating ones he considers possible future killers to cover up his own murders all while leading the ones he’s interested in to play his games and eventually ending up granting him his end game. It’s rather brilliant and this theory is completely plausible.
Not sure why this is such a huge breakthrough theory, Lecture's character establishes this is a possible dynamic between himself and other sociopaths in Red Dragon, the book that precedes The Silence of the Lambs, manipulating Dolarhyde to go after Graham's family, an act essentially seeking revenge for Graham catching him.
Apples and oranges. Dolarhyde wasn’t a patient of Lecter’s so the point is moot. Graham was after Dolarhyde and Lecter pointed him in the right direction. That’s not manipulation.
@@allenwollesen2375 another good theory, but I'd say its a bit of both. Pork is often closer to human, so maybe he chose lamb because they're more likely to be raised on farms near her
Just finished my fourth or fifth re-read of the book and this theory doesn't hold water...name gumb was never a patient of Lecters, that was Raspail...the lamb chops were a call back to the book title and the clarice starling back story..and I never thought buffalo bill was that terrible of a serial killer (he has like victims and they had to patch multiple serial killers together for his character (Grin,Brudos,Bundy,Kemper)
The theory makes sense, when I remember that in another Harris novel, I think it was Red Dragon? Lecter convinced a drugged-up guy to skin his own face. He might have made Buffalo Bill what he is too.
Despite the major flaw of Gumb never being treated by Lecter, another problem with the theory is there was no guarantee that the FBI would come to Lecter for help or even need to seek outside help in the case. There are way too many variables for this to be a good theory.
While it is true that many serial killers that have been properly "interviewed" have admitted to having victims that were animals before humans, like "training dummies." Also, a few have reports from their past of animal cruelty. However, others simply had their first victims being human. Some cases (if you dig) are children of their own age. It is more of a matter of convenience combined with having no compassion for them. But...you are correct with the oddness of Gumb; caring for his dog and the moths with obvious true compassion, love and affection.
the killing animals thing is common but not universal. its one of the factors to look for when ascertaining is someone is a psychopath, but some are still either smart enough not to target their own, or not psychopaths at all, and instead motivated killers with a different array of common traits. with humans and mental illness one size rarely fits all, so it is perfectly possible for a psychopath to want to keep their own pet alive to project onto, or to keep to help keep up appearances or even lure victims.
@@bubbaguy4411 I don't know, I've heard that whole triad thing (animal cruelty/murder, bedwetting, and fascination with fire) had been debunked, at least as always being true. Also, it's always been my impression that the animal thing was a stage, as you say, working up to humans, not something they did continually. Also, I think that some of them have exceptions. I mean they don't kill every human they encounter so they wouldn't, likely, kill every animal they encounter either.
That’s just a silly myth. Not all serial killers enjoy torturing animals. I’d fancy that they’d much rather torture stupid humans. I mean, thats what I’ve read.
@@davemoskot1776 Well, the idea is that it's a step. The ones who are known to have done that did it when they were weak kids and were starting with the only living thing they can overpower and abuse without trouble. It's also supposed to be where they get the taste for hurting and killing living things and they can often get away with it because they focus on strays or if they take a pet it can always be justified as "they ran away". That's why actual animal cruelty cases need to be taken more seriously, especially when it comes to young offenders and especially when it's particularly heinous. Maybe, just maybe, if they were some of these serial killers could have been headed off before they moved up people. Even if not, then other issues could be addressed because clearly a child who skins a cat alive (as a group of young boys did a few years back) must have something wrong with them that could be addressed.
There was a line in the book where a character is musing on Lektors' patients and what he could have released just for fun. Also Jame Gumm wasn't a patient, his boyfriend who he murdered was.
I seem to recall a line in one of the movies, or books (or both) about Lector altering and/or destroying a lot of his patient records so there's no telling what he did or to who. That said, yeah his boyfriend was the patient not Gumm and I don't think, if Lector did play a role in his becoming a serial killer, it was some long-range plan, just something he did for his own amusement or some sort of personal experiment.
I don’t think he treated Buffalo Bill he treated BB’s boy friend Benjamin raspdale...so? Who was killed by BB. And he ordered lamb chops after starling just told him about her trying to save a lamb. It was his way of silencing a lamb for her in my opinion.
Ever notice that when Clarice was in the library looking at the microfiche that the newspaper text was just the same couple of paragraphs over and over?
I've always thought that it was a bit unrealistic that the serial killer they were looking for just happened to be a patient of another serial killer, whom they were questioning.
If Hannibal Lecter did treat bill, this theory is highly possible. Hannibal play psychological warfare really well. If Hannibal Lecter did make bill into a killer, that just makes him even more scarier as a psychological villain. This is especially true, if he was pulling the strings of everything that happened in the movie.
My reading of it was Gumb was the lover of one of Lecters annoying patients, a patient Gumb eventually decapitated, stuffed with moth and hid in garage for starling to find. Lecter met him once and Gumb was impressed the doctor wasn’t shocked by him and recognised him for what ( he thought) he was, like with red dragon. He probably got a word or twos encouragement to wind him up and that was that. He had already killed several people previously to meeting Lecter
Raspail was Lecter's patient (whom Lecter killed). Raspail was living with Gumb. Raspail had taken a liking to a guy named Klaus. Gumb became jealous and killed Klaus. Raspail hid Klaus' head in the storage unit which Clarice found on Lecter's information.
I met Ted Levine in Chicago in 1996. I was taking care of a friend of his and he asked me a few questions. I didn’t know who he was but the voice and sunglasses indoors unsettled me.
In a backhanded support of this theory remember. In the first Lecter film Manhunter, The Red Dragon Character was in contact with Lecter who considered him an apprentice
There is some confusion in the comments. Lecter did see Jame one time in the novel. It's left ambiguous in the film but the novel clearly states that Raspail referred Jame to Lecter after Jame killed Raspail's lover, Klaus. The novel states that Lecter and Jame's session tape was never found, but Crawford says to Starling "who knows what Lecter turned loose on the world," referring to Lecter likely manipulating or encouraging Jame into future killings. I think the idea of it being done was more for Lecter's amusement rather than to use Jame as a bargaining chip later because Lecter had no way of knowing Jame would become the killer he did, but Jame was certainly alone with Lecter for one session before Lecter murdered Raspail. I wish the film had included more of Jame's backstory, and switching the decapitated head from Klaus in the novel to Raspail in the film changes a lot - Jame didnt kill Raspail, he was infatuated with Raspail and desperate to be wanted by him. Jame killed Klaus and wore his skin in an effort to get Raspail to want him the way Raspail wanted Klaus. Additionally, Lecter was a psychiatrist not a psychic. He didnt know he would be caught yet when he met Jame so that gives credence to it all being purely for his own amusement. The lambchop bit is also moot because Lecter picks the lock in the film with the pen Chilton left in his cell, not a lambchop lol. Lecter ordered lambchops to symbolically eat Clarice, or at least a "piece" of her.
I always thought that Lecter was making serial killers wherever he saw the opportunity to do so. His skill at manipulation is almost supernatural. He convinced his next door cell mate to swallow his own tongue, Mason Verger to cut off his own face, Mason’s doctor to feed him to the pigs and even convinces Clarice in the books to run away with him.
Dr Lector used Chiltons pen as a key. He blagged it when he saw it lying on his cot. Whilst still strapped to the gurney in an upright position, Lector simply learned forward. Resulting in falling flat onto his cot face down and swallowed the pen before Barney had realised what had really happened.
I'll go for the doctor manipulating the patient theory. The sequel shows doc egging on Gary Oldman's character , the character cuts his own face . That happened long before Clairice came along. Just speculating on a hypothesis
So basically, the poster just watched Red Dragon and the Hannibal tv show. The biggest pattern Lecter has is his fascination with turning the minds of patients to do what he wants.
The only problem with this theory, in the film anyway, is that it relies on the coincidence of Dr. Chilton leaving his pen in Lecter's cell long after Lecter would have set his plan in motion. Lecter could not have known that was going to happen when he set about helping Clarice. It also takes away from the idea that Lecter is simply a brilliant psychologist who also happens to be a serial killer, therefore the perfect person to aide the Behavioral Science division based on his intelligence alone. The movie implies he's able to construct a razor sharp profile of Buffalo Bill just from reading the case file and the small tidbits he knows from treating a former boyfriend of his. This theory takes away the idea that Lecter is a natural profiler.
I met the actor who played Buffalo Bill at a shop. I just jump up and down and hugged him. He even quoted a few lines for me. A woman passed us, saw him, screamed, and ran away. He told me "that happens." We both laughed about it. He was really nice.
Cool.
I don't know anything about the actor's real life but it amuses me to think that he is married and that the following banter happens at his house , BB actor Ted Levine- "It puts dinner on the table or it gets the hose." Wife of Ted Levine -"It stops acting creepy or it gets taken for every nickel in divorce court!"
I’m calling BS, clarice shot and killed him at the end..... mic drop
....and then everyone clapped?
Great story!!!
almost 30 years later and were still talking about this classic
Yeah, easy to remember. Just like the most expensive horror movie of all time, everyone’s favorite: Van Helsing. $222 million budget (adjusted). Throw money at anything and it’s an instant classic.
This movie came out in 1989 actually... It was supposed to but it's was moved to 1991
@@Cooper-qp6bo lmao, say that to this film who only has a budget of 19 million
@@justthinking650 I know, this movie was genius. Believe it or not, Gene Siskel gave it two out of four stars originally. I looked it up on Rotten Tomatoes and his comment was “Foster’s character, who is appealing, is dwarfed by the monsters she’s after. I’d rather see her work on another case.” Wasn’t that the whole point of the movie? She’s not even a rookie yet because she’s still a trainee and they throw her into the biggest manhunt and liaison with one of the most notorious serial killers.
@@Cooper-qp6bo yeah, you're 100% right. It seems he missed the whole idea... and this guy is supposed to be a movie expert! Sounds like a bit of a joke to me. You make a good point... cheers mate.
You missed the point of the lamb chops as dinner. He sublimated his desire to consume Clarice, oddly out of real love, and ordered the next best thing, given her story about the screaming lambs.
Exactly. It amazes me how they didn't see how obvious this is
😯😲
Hannibal Lecter: I've no plans to call on you, Clarice. The world is more interesting with you in it.
How would Lecter have a desire to consume Clarice when he eats the rude? He doesn't consider Clarice to be rude, that is the entire reason he gives her his attention in the first place.
I think the lamb chops were supposed to be an homage to her story, that is how I have always looked at it.
@@Tauramehtar I don’t think his menu is only the rude. The Census taker for instance. Lecter’s desire is to consume and there are different reasons why. The violinist wasn’t rude per se, just incompetent. And he wasn’t enamored with Clarice until her story developed. At first he considered her rude by extension from Crawford. That’s the genius of it. He finally has a ‘positive’ relationship with someone and combats his nature by subbing out the extra rare lamb chops.
Anthony Hopkins makes sure to almost never blink during his scenes - it makes his performance all the more unnerving
That and many other things helped him make a character that is truly disturbing to watch, even all these years later,it's still a fascinating look at a great performance by Sir Anthony Hopkins!
He must've had very dry eyes while doing this movie. O.O
@Nope Nope did you ask anybody?
What if he had to sneeze, it’s total different movie...
Lol.... He's still a short, tubby little Welshman.... I just don't see anything disturbing about him in this movie. His portrayal of Othello for the BBC was much more "disturbing". But then I still think Jack Nicholson's Joker is still the best ever!!!
He ordered lamb chops because of Clarice's story of the screaming lambs going to slaughter. He was silencing the screams by eating the lambs. A twisted sense of humour or just an attempt to help her be rid of the screams.
Symbolism is important to Lecter. Why not have lamb after talking about Clarice’s lambs? It’s really not so profound.
I feel like the lamb chops is more him taunting her. Why would this silence the lambs when she was trying to save them?
It would remind her of the slaughter. That's how the lamb got on the plate.
He was externalizing her trauma playing mind games with her as he did with Bill, but he did care about her,, he used her to escape and as a favor he delivered him to her, it was an even exchange. After being freed he could have stalked and ate her too but he had other livers to eat
Ted Levine should have had an Oscar for his performance.
To paraphrase Levine's character in the film, "I'd want to reward me."
In a perfect world, he would've had Lead Actor nom over Anthony Hopkins. I don't even know why someone would think Hannibal was scarier.
He was also in the hills have eyes
@@zimzimzalabim right
his last choke of blood was awesome
The real problem with the theory, as far as the movie is concerned, anyway, is that Jame Gumb was never a patient of Dr. Lecter. Lecter says he "only met him once", and that he was the lover of his actual patient, Benjamin Raspale.
Ya, but lector wouldn't tell them that if it were true. I'm liking this theory. Basically, he pushes a guy to edge (or several) with only lector's continuing uninterrupted 'therapy' sessions holding him (them) back. When lector gets arrested, it's only a matter of time before the subject falls. And, I like the idea lector sets up several candidates for insurance of effectiveness.
@@factanonverba7547 turning his patients into possible serial killers that he could use to bargain for better living conditions and possible escapes. Clearly Hannibal must’ve realised he would get captured due to his level of insanity and need to dissect and eat his victims.
@@rodneysettle8106 ya, makes the guy even more terrifying.
@@factanonverba7547
Yeah, but Lecter would still need Buffalo Bill to kidnap someone high profile-a senator’s daughter. That’s a huge hole in this theory. He wouldn’t have gotten a deal otherwise-even Lecter didn’t have that kind of foresight.
@@cruddddddddddddddd true, but maybe he presumed the kidnappings would be gruesome and prolific. Given a high enough body count, they would have dealed. Remember, they were already in contact with hannibal when the vip was kidnapped, so they were on the first step of the process.
No. Lecter's client was Raspail, Jame's ex-lover. He never treated Jame Gumb.
This the right answer!
Mojo doesn't grasp anagrams.
A theory is that Raspail shared what was said in sessions with Lecter to Jame. Especially about the “struggles” Jame had with his sexuality. Whereas, Lecter planted “ideas” in Raspail to distort his perspective of his relationship with Jame. Lecter’s manipulation of people. Like how he kept trying to plant inappropriate ideas in Clarice’s childhood memories with her uncle.
Good point! 😉👍
That is true. It has been years since I read the book or seen the movie and I almost forgot that point.
As I recall Lector said he was treating Raspail who had mentioned Bill killing a transient and doing things with his skin and he had become afraid of him. If I remember right it was Raspail's head that was in the back of that old car in the storage locker and Lector said he as a garden variety, manic depressive.
I thought Lecter picked Lamb as a reference to Clarice revealing her story about the baby lamb she tried to save
he did
And also as a character reveal for him: after hearing that tragic story, Lecter is not moved by sympathy for the poor animals. Hearing about lambs being slaughtered just makes him hungry for lamb chops.
I think so
He did, that’s why he asked if the lambs have stopped screaming. .... j Crawford told her not to reveal anything personal “you don’t want him in your head” he used that to toy with her.
Yes cuz he's an a$$hole
After my friend pointed it out to me, I've come to believe that Hannibal always knew who Buffalo Bill was because of the way he says Belvedere when he describes one of his drawings: "That's the Duomo seen from the Bel-ve-dere." "All that detail from memory, Doctor?" "Memory, Agent Starling, is what I have instead of a view." It's later revealed that BB is taking up residence in the old Lipmann place in Belvedere, OH. Hannibal has always had a rye sense of humor, so why not throw out the biggest clue at the jump? He claimed Dr. Chilton enjoyed his petty torments but Hannibal was and always will be the ultimate tormentor. They're all over the place in the book and the film. Besides, the only proof that BB wasn't Lecter's patient came directly from Lecter, and he's not above lying to get what he wants.
I've seen this movie so many times I can pretty much quote it, and I never made the Belvedere OH, Belvedere/Duomo connection before - thank you !
Wow. I wouldn't have caught that in a million years. Well done.
Thanks!!
The book makes it clear he knew who he was the entire time.
@@c.matthatter8264 Same here.
This film was so groundbreaking.. that they showed it at schools to show how serial killers think and "work". However.. Jame was Raspail's ex-lover.. and Raspail had told Lecter about him .. and Lecter figured it all out. Lecter in no way did anything to him. The only patient we know he manipulated was Mason Verger, and he was manipulated to hurting himself.
Well Buffalo Bill was based on 3 real serial killers John Douglass FBI- Glenn in the movie-had studied. A good psychiatrist can get to know how/who people are ,without meeting them in person ,through his patients,how they describe they talk about him/her,through the patient´s relationship with them.He got to know many intimate things,the psychology of Bill through Raspail.
@@Sarie977 , right on the money there.
Bro that’s part 2..
@@sonnycheeba4536, all three of the Hannibal Lector books have that stuff in them. However Mason is the only patient he really manipulated into harming either self or others. Jame killed Raspail.
Two things to add that might support this theory:
- we know Lecter is capable of driving a man to kill himself just by whispering to him. He did that to "Multiple Miggs" in the adjacent cell. So, it stands to reason that he should be able to drive a man to become a serial killer if he wanted to.
- In his first meeting with Clarice one of the things their conversation hits on are Lecter's drawings. On one of them Lecter remarks, "That is the Duomo as seen from the Belvedere." referring to his drawing of a tower in Florence, Italy. And it turns out Clarice eventually finds Jame Gumb in his hometown...of Belvedere, Ohio. Was Lecter giving Clarice a clue from the beginning? If so, he drew that picture in anticipation of the FBI sending someone to seek help from him to find Buffalo Bill and Lecter was waiting to spring that little clue. Diabolical! (And what about those other drawings of his? If we play along with this theory, did they all contain clues, perhaps to some other killers' identities?)
I believe the theory probably is partially derived from the Hannibal show rather then purely from the books or movie. Since in the show he has manipulated people a lot more into long term schemes though I don't believe the book truly touches on those subjects.
While I don't support the theory, you'd really only need the fact that minds such as Hannibals are always manipulating outcomes, emotions and testing their techniques for entertainment and energy. He would have likely said all kinds of things in session to his client just to see how long his malfeasance could reach. jAME wouldn't have been a special case of secondhand puppetry, Hannibal would have had human experiments in all of the relationships he had with people. Waiting for others to catch up in conversation leaves a calculated mind with time on their hands. A mind raised early in terror will always be running multiple plays at warp speed and checking all the angles. It's forever a feral cat. Whether it stalks, hunts and strikes, or constantly skidders away will depend on the feline but they'll never lose that early notion that this world is filled with two types. Either you are predator or by default you are prey.
That's crazy! I didn't pick up on the Belvedere bit
But Jame Gumb was never Lecter's patient, was he? Lecter's patient was Benjamin Raspail, Gumb's lover. It's indicated that Lecter met Gumb at some point, presumably through Raspail, but doesn't say where or how. Since Gumb killed Raspail and Lecter found the head, it's indicated Lecter did investigating of his own after Raspail disappeared, and perhaps met Gumb while doing so. This makes it less likely that Lecter knowingly created Jame Gumb's fantasizing about transsexualism, but its likely Lecter noted Gumb's pathology and made a mental note that it could be useful information if he ever was caught, and his plan worked. It's hinted Lecter did this with a few dangerous cases and there were other killers out there that he kept in mind
Hannibal had the lamb chops as a subtle jab at Clarice. That’s so very him. Even if she never knew The audience did.
We know Hannibal was able to learn of Clarice’s deepest trauma during their ‘Quid pro quo’. She agreed with Dr. Lecter when asked if she could still remember the screaming of the lambs. I think her triumph in capturing Buffalo Bill as well as the ordeal surrounding it did silence those lambs for Clarice. Hence the name of the book/film The Silence of the Lambs.
Actually I didn't realize that. Thank you for bringing that up.
It was also a double entendre. He ordered two rare lamb chops, the prison guards.
How could Foster not talk to Hopkins during the filming . That’s like a QB and WR not talking , to them playing a season together
@@stevengriffin5349 I wasn’t aware that Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins did not speak during the filing. However I’m willing to speculate before I search it!
I would guess for authenticity. They only ever knew each other as Clarice and Hannibal. That might make for more realistic reactions in their scenes together. Once immersed in their roles they would behave be as authentic as possible sans acting.
So, Tony wouldn’t have been pals with Jodie. I think this was two actors on their game. Hopefully they were able to come an amicable understanding.
Let’s see how wrong I was hahaha
Hahaha I was so wrong! 🤭
Google says,
“Jodie Foster Didn't Speak to Anthony Hopkins on “Silence of the Lambs” Until the Last Day of Filming. ... It turns out that during the making of The Silence of the Lambs, Jodie Foster was so terrified of Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter that she avoided him and never actually spoke to him until the last day of filming”
Ok so all of this was just explained. Forgive me I’ve watched a few YTs on this film/Book the past few weeks.
I think my forgetful brain was still on track 😅 authenticity. Even if she wasn’t able to speak to him because she was frightened that just makes it all the more real. Timeless really.
(Especially every Halloween and Census)
Ted Levine really should have more starring roles. hopefully he gets them as he gets older
He has. He was a main character on Monk, as well as a lot of other roles. Great underrated actor!
@@bonitadiablo That one episode where Adrian had to go out into the woods? I held my breath the entire time waiting for Levine's character-- I've forgotten the name-- to tell Adrian to rub the lotion on his skin. Like, calamine, for poison sumac.
@@DammitVictor-8H omg that would have been HILARIOUS! Love it!
This is something that really bugs the hell out of me when it comes to how people rationalize what it is that Hannibal does. He doesn't make monsters of man...he simply sees people for what they really are beneath their assorted masks and layers of suits made of human skin.
Thank you, I’m glad at least one person grasps this concept.
and then eats them , peace t. d.
Hopkins was so effective in his role that, off set, Foster intentionally avoided him...because he genuinely creeped her out. They never had a conversation after their initial meeting.
One of my favourite movies of all time
Ted Levine should have won an Oscar for his role. He was scarier than Lecter.
No.
Much of this is not 'Reddit Theory' but simply the narrative of the novel.
I thought the Alternate Ending was Buffalo Bill turning his life around,Moving to SF,becoming a Cop and helping Adrian Monk solve Crimes.
Haha. ;-)
No, he turns his life around and begins an investigation into a possessed textile machine.
“It rubs the lotion 🧴 on its skin or else it gets the hose again”
@Moon Watcher Thank you. I dont know why I wrote “the”. I know better. Lol
Would you [have] me?? I'd have me. I'd have me hard. I'd have me so hard.
"It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this when its told.
It rubs the lotion in its skin, or else it gets the hose.
And when its done, there's one more thing, a simple little task it.
Put the f***ing lotion in the basket."
Silence! The Musical
It puts the Biden on its skin or else it gets the Trump again.
@@sarahk2722 kinda lame.
The Lamb Chop dinner had nothing to do with using a bone to pick the lock. He had Dr. Chiltons pen he stole for that. The lamb chops were specifically because of his obsession/fascination with Clarice and her story of the spring lambs that were screaming as they were being slaughtered and how it made her flee. Lecter's fascination with Clarice was evident from the beginning. He hated rude people. As long as you were not rude or uncivil he wouldn't harm you. Look at Barney the orderly. He once broke Lecters arm when he attacked a nurse but yet Lecter had no ill will towards him because he knew Barney was just doing his job and most importantly Barney was respectful to him. Barney even says it as much when he says that he and Lecter share a mutual respect for each other and Lecter would not harm him.He was amazed at her intelligence that as a trainee she was trusted enough to come to him rather then a behavioral analyst from the FBI. He told her early on that she was doing well and had "been courteous and receptive to courtesy and that she had established trust with the embarrassing detail of Miggs" We later see him concerned about her wound and he is happy the bleeding has stopped and offers her a towel to dry off. He helps her throughout the case. We see in the follow up movies that he cuts his own hand off after she cuffs him to her rather then hurt her. Interestingly, for those who read the novel you know that Clarice and Hannibal end up together as a couple in the book.
But he killed the other police officer even though he was also curteous and nice to him.
We do know that in "Hannibal" (2001 movie) Lecter intentionally encouraged his patient Mason Verger to cut his own face off, leaving him horribly deformed. You could believe that in his practice he probably used his power as a doctor for evil acts to satisfy his depravity. But as others have commented, his influence on Gumb was limited because they had no doctor-patient relationship.
Apples and oranges. Lecter never knew Jame Gumb in the first place. As for Mason, we don’t exactly know Lecter’s reasons for the torment he inflicted on him. I speculate that Lecter despised Mason’s extreme pedophilia and having to give him “treatments” while knowing Mason was irredeemable.
Yes, because he knew that Mason is a pedophile... And he offered drug to Mason who took it happily. Quite different concepts. Bufallo Bill was created by Jame Gumb and not by Lecter.
- Lecter was not Gumb's psychiatrist, he was Benjamin Raspail's. Gumb only met Lecter once. Lecter killed Raspail due to his 'whining' and incessant talking about Gumb
- Lecter had been in jail and then prison for 8 or 9 years before the Buffalo Bill case
- As pointed out, Clarice is not the one who gets Lecter transferred. He's clearly shown in the movie to be an opportunist who utilises minor mistakes made by guards to make his escape.
- Lecter eats rare lamb before his escape to taunt Clarice/because he has had Clarice and her lamb story on his mind.
He talked Miggs into committing suicide so theory is plausible.
I read the book sooo many times I love it 13 years ago I found a dr lector T-shirt at Walmart for 1,99 and I bought one for my husband we wore them on my birthday anyways we separated 10 years so I forgot about the shirts last year he passed away and when my sons looked threw his clothes they found that shirt i bought him it ,,made me cry and broke my heart that for so many years he kept that shirt ..now I have it and sleep in it gives me comfort
Lector is a psychopath - any action, or inaction, he takes is done is satisfy his own needs and desires. He didn't program Gumm into becoming a killer; he recognised that Gumm would become a killer and Lector was curious, and indifferent, to the damage he would do.
Lamb chops because of Clarice's traumatic childhood experience on her uncle's farm.
@DGraySon77 from what I understand, he’s a mixture of both and yet neither. “There are no words for what he is... except monstrous” or something like that
Lecter is the most interesting character in modern storytelling
I think that the good Doc ordered lamb chops because he wanted to get under Starling's skin. He orders them after she tells him her story of trying and failing to save a lamb. A psychological dig at her. Oh he is so go at that...
Krissy, a psych undergrad, I presume? Well hello Clarrisse,don’t think the answer is under those dollar store shoes?
@@davemoskot1776 No no my creepy friend. I am a lot closer to this than you want to know...ha ha...Actually, I am a writer who spent time with FBI profilers for research. We discussed this film and the nuances of Doc and the mind games he plays with Starling.
What shocks me the most is that Ted Levine played Monk's boss, Stottlemeyer and even tho I watched The Silence of the Lambs a lot of times, I never realized it was the same actor =O The power of transformation of a good mustache!
Also lipstick and a wig.
Preparing for a New Years Eve party, Gumm said, "I want to eat, drink, and be Mary."
Girl, you awful.
@@michaelrandall4862 lol
3:30 idk about that unless it says it in the books. But the info we have from movies that are from the books. Buffalo bill wasn't his subject but the boyfriend of one of his patients, who he later found murdered by him after he was told about him. Much like the musician in the series who was friends with his patient not his patient so the theory dies their.
nice one. 👍🏽
Agreed.
"The Silence of the Lambs" is one of my all-time favorite movies and I am open to anything, although, sorry, I am not buying into this theory at all. One personal theory I have, however, is that Buffalo Bill got the first shot off and missed during the showdown with Clarice Starling at the end. Pay close attention and you'll see that the first muzzle flash comes from the frontal angle of Buffalo Bill.
This movie is a perfect grotesque artwork. Foster and Sir Hopkins are well chosen for the characters. I also love the dark unconvinient feeling , cold, wet, and dirty. References to lambs and butterflies are all over the movie, whether it is a butterfly in the background, nor lamb shaped objects placed. Jonathan Demme put alot of "tasks" for the different style of analysis ( mimic, gesture, dialogue, blink or you will miss it moments) All in all, it is great.
I always assumed he ordered the lamb chops, extra bloody, as some kind of sick tribute to the story Clarice shared with him right before this, about her hearing the lambs screaming.
He did
Also as a joke about the two lambs he was going to slaughter
And you would be correct.
Yeah I don’t think it was something Lecter planned as a bargaining chip, especially since buffalo bill was never directly his patient. I think it’s more accurate to say Lecter’s pleasure was to encourage psychopathy in everyone he met, usually by digging at childhood trauma which he found through regular therapeutic techniques. This is probably what he was doing with Clarise and I always got the impression that part of his fascination with her was that he felt she should be or could be a violent psychopath but took a left turn and never quite got there, so he was always trying to nudge her “back on the path.”
I always thought he did this because deep down he wanted to prove everyone was like him or could be, albeit less effective and intelligent from his perspective since he was a classic narcissist. If anything I think he was obsessed with proving he wasn’t uniquely a monster, just uniquely good at being the kind of monster anyone could become.
James Gumm wasn't really Lectors patient, it was James Gumm's boyfriend from what he said they only met once before James Gumm killed his boyfriend and stored his head. Lector knew he was crazy but the even of his release was just chance perhaps.
Lector may have lied about his relationship with Gumb. Or maybe he manipulated Raspell to convince Gumb that he was far worse than he might have been.
@@EgoExit He didn’t lie and they never met.
Lecter out here playing 7D chess😩
This only works if Lecter planned on BB’s victim being someone as high profile as a senator’s daughter-ppl cared about catching BB, but the senator only made the deal bc it was her daughter. So slight hole in the theory, though it was a fun one (I’ve read the book twice-big Harris fan)
If enough people were killed, it wouldn’t matter if the killer killed only low profile people.
Instead of speculating on Hannibal Lectors motives in regards to Buffalo Bill and their pathology, why not ask Thomas Harris?
It's his creation and would absolutely know his characters.
pretty much.
I always kind of assumed that Lecter helped push Buffalo Bill over the edge for his own amusement.
I have I always felt lecter thought the whole thing was a funny game
I don't buy the theory. Lecter is manipulative for a host of reasons, but he's not clairvoyant. If he's not smart enough to avoid getting caught, then how would he be clever enough to create this elaborate insurance policy?
It's not that hard,you don't need clearvoyance you only need to know people predictability and even if you make you're plans with the risk of getting cought you can stil set someone up down the line to get you're way,it's not a Shure thing but it's a prediction based on current knowledge.
“Wait....was she a great big fat person”?
- Jame Gumm
I love that line and how he says it.
My boyfriend doesn’t speak English but I showed him this movie and he laughed at that part when he said ,oh wait was she a great big fat person!! I told him what it meant in Spanish and now he says it all the time I’m like ,,honey it was a movie u can’t say that to people it’s rude and not nice !!!hahaha
Yes, she was a bit Romy.
To be honest, I think that many of the men who are so adamantly insisting that they are women, despite having XY chromosomes, having male tendencies like extreme competitiveness , being fascinated with female bodies, and wanting to elbow them out of the picture by simply calling women "non-men" (WTF???) these folks get violent when you simply say "you are a MAN and not a WOMAN, and you do not have a female brain and you simply prefer the female role in normal human society OR you get off on the idea of being a desirable woman you want to have sexual intercourse with, while hating your male body that longs for female presence, but mommy issues seem to get in the way, especially if you were raised in a single parent house....so they actually stick lifelike breasts on your chest, dress like Audrey Hepburn, keep your junk, and watch yourself in the mirror playing with both things, because the bosom has no sensation, just like a woman you make love to, you don't care what they feel because as a man the female breasts have no sensation. Just like as women, we don't feel whatever goes on in a man's brain when you are touching their parts. But female desire isn't really about feeling a guy's junk,.... sorry, I rambled. Strange.
All I know is... never help anyone that has a van and a couch.
I’m watching the Netflix series Hannibal and it’s so good I recommend it
Oh its on Netflix?? Ill check it out. Thank you. ❤
I couldn't watch the 3rd season. Too much BS. The first two seasons were fantastic.
@@rv2167 the third season is very convoluted. Doesn't really have a clear path like season 1 and 2. Almost like they ran out of good stories to tell, and they just winged it. That's just me. Watch it and see what you think.
@@thehumblepundit9790 I agree, third season was predictable and slightly insulting
@@thehumblepundit9790 Definitely, they oversimplified the chemistry between Hannibal and Will and i found Bedelia's ending cheap
This is the result of overthinking lol... I'm not onboard. I am onboard with Lector being aware of Buff's tendencies and thus adjusting and acting on that to in fact get what he wanted. But to surmise that he played that game from the start is quite ridiculous imo. Because that's saying Lector assumes he will be caught. Which for a man of his intellect is ridiculous
100% agree this is possible. In the book Hannibal, the character is said to be from a very old family, have many passports, and he moved through the world acquiring possessions in a way where money’s no object. All of that suggests that nothing’s off the table
The lock pick was made from Childer's pen back in the book. maybe the movie too
Yeah. It's been a while but I recall they show him palming part of the pen, then during the transfer, Chilton has to sign something and can't find his pen. I have no idea where the person behind this theory got that he used the bone. Also, wouldn't they debone his food so he couldn't use the bone as a weapon, or at least, make sure they got the bone when they collected the plate?
Given all the rules for interacting with him, I would think so. I mean, theoretically, he could kill someone with that bone.
The pen was on a table when Lecter was in a straight-jacket. Later it does show him with a piece of the pen palmed in his hand, but never explains how he got it off the table.
@@-BigMike- The Force? Is Lector a Sith?
Besides how is he gonna eat the chops to get the bone when they are just bringing the chops?
I came to a similar conclusion when I re-watched the movie after seeing the TV series. It is not so much that Hannibal was thinking about how he could leverage cases to make life easier on himself if he gets caught, it is more about being needed by the very people who have him captive.
The book is quite clear that Lecter was grooming Gumb. I don't know if it was for future use, but he was definitely helping Gumb with his becoming.
no.
Wow. Maybe give the book another try. Gumb and Lecter never even met.
IMHO this is one of the best book to film adaptations. I read the books, then heard about the movie coming, and I thought it was going to be impossible to do it right. I am so happy they did.
I’d you watch the show “Hannibal” you will see how plausible this theory actually is. Throughout that series Hannibal manipulates everyone around him to attain his final wish. He spends years manipulating ones he considers possible future killers to cover up his own murders all while leading the ones he’s interested in to play his games and eventually ending up granting him his end game. It’s rather brilliant and this theory is completely plausible.
Except the tv series is non-canon and contrary to what Harris intended Lecter to be. Sometimes a show is just a show.
Not sure why this is such a huge breakthrough theory, Lecture's character establishes this is a possible dynamic between himself and other sociopaths in Red Dragon, the book that precedes The Silence of the Lambs, manipulating Dolarhyde to go after Graham's family, an act essentially seeking revenge for Graham catching him.
Apples and oranges. Dolarhyde wasn’t a patient of Lecter’s so the point is moot. Graham was after Dolarhyde and Lecter pointed him in the right direction. That’s not manipulation.
Real world cannibals often compare human meat to either lamb or pork, so thats probably why he wanted lamb chops
I always thought he ordered lamb chops as a weird tribute to Clarice and her trauma from the farm
@@allenwollesen2375 another good theory, but I'd say its a bit of both. Pork is often closer to human, so maybe he chose lamb because they're more likely to be raised on farms near her
"I ate her with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti"
@@DirectorsChoice Isn't it "I ate his liver"?
Because of Clarice's story he wanted lamb
Just finished my fourth or fifth re-read of the book and this theory doesn't hold water...name gumb was never a patient of Lecters, that was Raspail...the lamb chops were a call back to the book title and the clarice starling back story..and I never thought buffalo bill was that terrible of a serial killer (he has like victims and they had to patch multiple serial killers together for his character (Grin,Brudos,Bundy,Kemper)
The theory makes sense, when I remember that in another Harris novel, I think it was Red Dragon? Lecter convinced a drugged-up guy to skin his own face. He might have made Buffalo Bill what he is too.
How many people realize "Buffalo Bill" and Capt. Stottlemeijer- Monk's long suffering boss- are the same actor?!
Despite the major flaw of Gumb never being treated by Lecter, another problem with the theory is there was no guarantee that the FBI would come to Lecter for help or even need to seek outside help in the case. There are way too many variables for this to be a good theory.
This makes sense. I always thought serial killers liked to kill animals yet Buffalo Bill has a dog “Precious” that he clearly loves.
While it is true that many serial killers that have been properly "interviewed" have admitted to having victims that were animals before humans, like "training dummies." Also, a few have reports from their past of animal cruelty. However, others simply had their first victims being human. Some cases (if you dig) are children of their own age. It is more of a matter of convenience combined with having no compassion for them. But...you are correct with the oddness of Gumb; caring for his dog and the moths with obvious true compassion, love and affection.
the killing animals thing is common but not universal. its one of the factors to look for when ascertaining is someone is a psychopath, but some are still either smart enough not to target their own, or not psychopaths at all, and instead motivated killers with a different array of common traits.
with humans and mental illness one size rarely fits all, so it is perfectly possible for a psychopath to want to keep their own pet alive to project onto, or to keep to help keep up appearances or even lure victims.
@@bubbaguy4411 I don't know, I've heard that whole triad thing (animal cruelty/murder, bedwetting, and fascination with fire) had been debunked, at least as always being true. Also, it's always been my impression that the animal thing was a stage, as you say, working up to humans, not something they did continually.
Also, I think that some of them have exceptions. I mean they don't kill every human they encounter so they wouldn't, likely, kill every animal they encounter either.
That’s just a silly myth. Not all serial killers enjoy torturing animals. I’d fancy that they’d much rather torture stupid humans. I mean, thats what I’ve read.
@@davemoskot1776 Well, the idea is that it's a step. The ones who are known to have done that did it when they were weak kids and were starting with the only living thing they can overpower and abuse without trouble.
It's also supposed to be where they get the taste for hurting and killing living things and they can often get away with it because they focus on strays or if they take a pet it can always be justified as "they ran away".
That's why actual animal cruelty cases need to be taken more seriously, especially when it comes to young offenders and especially when it's particularly heinous.
Maybe, just maybe, if they were some of these serial killers could have been headed off before they moved up people. Even if not, then other issues could be addressed because clearly a child who skins a cat alive (as a group of young boys did a few years back) must have something wrong with them that could be addressed.
I can't stand reddit and anyone who uses it as a source or actually regard it's post as credible or sensible
There was a line in the book where a character is musing on Lektors' patients and what he could have released just for fun. Also Jame Gumm wasn't a patient, his boyfriend who he murdered was.
I seem to recall a line in one of the movies, or books (or both) about Lector altering and/or destroying a lot of his patient records so there's no telling what he did or to who. That said, yeah his boyfriend was the patient not Gumm and I don't think, if Lector did play a role in his becoming a serial killer, it was some long-range plan, just something he did for his own amusement or some sort of personal experiment.
I remember my dad taking me to this movie when I was about 11, it genuinely terrified me for weeks.
You are correct.. this is a "theory".. however "changes everything"? Not so much.
I don’t think he treated Buffalo Bill he treated BB’s boy friend Benjamin raspdale...so? Who was killed by BB. And he ordered lamb chops after starling just told him about her trying to save a lamb. It was his way of silencing a lamb for her in my opinion.
Makes sense especially in light of the Hannibal series. He likes to push buttons and see what will happen because of it.
Ever notice that when Clarice was in the library looking at the microfiche that the newspaper text was just the same couple of paragraphs over and over?
The escape was insanely well done
Great theory. Guess I never thought about it like that until now.
in general, that's what he did with many of his patients, turning them into monsters. not for gain, but for pleasure.
I had a Dad like that once.
It's actually not clear that Lector and Gumb ever met, even the once that he claims
I've always thought that it was a bit unrealistic that the serial killer they were looking for just happened to be a patient of another serial killer, whom they were questioning.
Psychotherapists can 'make' a patient 'better'...who's to say they can't make a patient worse?
Hannibal the cannibal...... best fictional serial killer
Very interesting and makes perfect sense. Well done.
Ted Levine is a great actor. You should watch anything he appears in.
If Hannibal Lecter did treat bill, this theory is highly possible. Hannibal play psychological warfare really well. If Hannibal Lecter did make bill into a killer, that just makes him even more scarier as a psychological villain. This is especially true, if he was pulling the strings of everything that happened in the movie.
My reading of it was Gumb was the lover of one of Lecters annoying patients, a patient Gumb eventually decapitated, stuffed with moth and hid in garage for starling to find. Lecter met him once and Gumb was impressed the doctor wasn’t shocked by him and recognised him for what ( he thought) he was, like with red dragon. He probably got a word or twos encouragement to wind him up and that was that. He had already killed several people previously to meeting Lecter
Raspail was Lecter's patient (whom Lecter killed). Raspail was living with Gumb. Raspail had taken a liking to a guy named Klaus. Gumb became jealous and killed Klaus. Raspail hid Klaus' head in the storage unit which Clarice found on Lecter's information.
I met Ted Levine in Chicago in 1996. I was taking care of a friend of his and he asked me a few questions. I didn’t know who he was but the voice and sunglasses indoors unsettled me.
The new TV series "Clarice" goes into more detail concerning Buffalo Bill. Comes out in 2021!
But I thought this was always the theory. I always believed in this theory for over 25 years
It seems pretty obvious when you think about it.
Exactly. This is nothing new. They just need views.
Whatever happened to Precious?🤔
Umm, Gollum?. Sorry, that's a good question, now I wonder too.
In a backhanded support of this theory remember. In the first Lecter film Manhunter, The Red Dragon Character was in contact with Lecter who considered him an apprentice
04:06 I'd think the lamb chops were a joke from Lecters side in relation to what Clarice told him about his childhood.
Yes. I agree with you!
Yes. That person really didn’t pay attention to the movie at all
I can't believe this fact is even in dispute
There is some confusion in the comments. Lecter did see Jame one time in the novel. It's left ambiguous in the film but the novel clearly states that Raspail referred Jame to Lecter after Jame killed Raspail's lover, Klaus. The novel states that Lecter and Jame's session tape was never found, but Crawford says to Starling "who knows what Lecter turned loose on the world," referring to Lecter likely manipulating or encouraging Jame into future killings. I think the idea of it being done was more for Lecter's amusement rather than to use Jame as a bargaining chip later because Lecter had no way of knowing Jame would become the killer he did, but Jame was certainly alone with Lecter for one session before Lecter murdered Raspail. I wish the film had included more of Jame's backstory, and switching the decapitated head from Klaus in the novel to Raspail in the film changes a lot - Jame didnt kill Raspail, he was infatuated with Raspail and desperate to be wanted by him. Jame killed Klaus and wore his skin in an effort to get Raspail to want him the way Raspail wanted Klaus.
Additionally, Lecter was a psychiatrist not a psychic. He didnt know he would be caught yet when he met Jame so that gives credence to it all being purely for his own amusement. The lambchop bit is also moot because Lecter picks the lock in the film with the pen Chilton left in his cell, not a lambchop lol. Lecter ordered lambchops to symbolically eat Clarice, or at least a "piece" of her.
Actually that makes a lot of sense, although to be honest I thought that was what had happened all along
I always thought that Lecter was making serial killers wherever he saw the opportunity to do so. His skill at manipulation is almost supernatural. He convinced his next door cell mate to swallow his own tongue, Mason Verger to cut off his own face, Mason’s doctor to feed him to the pigs and even convinces Clarice in the books to run away with him.
The FBI would have already gone through Lector's lists of patience's with a fine tooth comb, IMHO.
If he kept records of everything. He might not.
Ted Levine was also on _Monk_ as Stottlemeyer. When I realized they were the same actor, it blew my mind...
“It puts the lotion on......” “Daaaaang! Say it, don’t spray it...”
"Auto Trader! Whoo, I don't have this month!"
Dr Lector used Chiltons pen as a key. He blagged it when he saw it lying on his cot. Whilst still strapped to the gurney in an upright position, Lector simply learned forward. Resulting in falling flat onto his cot face down and swallowed the pen before Barney had realised what had really happened.
The house is for sale if anyone is in the market and wanna move to Pennsylvania!
Pit still there ?!?
Otherwise...i'm not interested.
🤭
How much?
@@leehenry5764 300k
I want to L.A.R.P. Silent Hill in Centrailia
Bill was not a patient of lecter according to the the movie.
If you watched the TV Show "Hannibal" this should be obvious to you. Not a theory at all based on the TV show.
and the TV show isn't the book. So to base a theory off a TV show.....
I'll go for the doctor manipulating the patient theory. The sequel shows doc egging on Gary Oldman's character , the character cuts his own face . That happened long before Clairice came along. Just speculating on a hypothesis
I love this idea of Lecter having his own 'Suicide Squad' of Serial Killers to unleash upon the world at his whim. 😎👍
I remember hearing this theory just a few years after the movie came out. How is it only now showing up on Reddit?
So basically, the poster just watched Red Dragon and the Hannibal tv show. The biggest pattern Lecter has is his fascination with turning the minds of patients to do what he wants.
The only problem with this theory, in the film anyway, is that it relies on the coincidence of Dr. Chilton leaving his pen in Lecter's cell long after Lecter would have set his plan in motion. Lecter could not have known that was going to happen when he set about helping Clarice. It also takes away from the idea that Lecter is simply a brilliant psychologist who also happens to be a serial killer, therefore the perfect person to aide the Behavioral Science division based on his intelligence alone. The movie implies he's able to construct a razor sharp profile of Buffalo Bill just from reading the case file and the small tidbits he knows from treating a former boyfriend of his. This theory takes away the idea that Lecter is a natural profiler.