A Model Railway From Scratch - 07: Track Laying
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- A belated Happy New Year & apologies for the long wait for this update, things still aren't resolved job-wise which is a distraction & causing some stress.
This update features some track laying & then some track unlaying! The explanation is in the video but it's a good job I don't have a deadline to get the trains running, although I have been acquiring quite a few recently & can't wait to get them on the track, I'll have to do a video of them at some point.
Anyway, thanks for watching!
I’ve just found this excellent video and subscribed. I like the easy to understand way you explain things. I’m off to watch your first video in the series. Thanks.
Cheers, thanks for the comment!
I have a mixture of insulfrog and electrofrog points and have just spent a couple of days converting the insulfrog ones to electrofrogs so that they all operate the same way, all connections are under the track (no reliance on blade contacts for continuity) and all point motors are wired up identically. I did this by joining the outer rails to the inners as shown above, removing the two wires that Peco fit and also joining together the two legs of the V part of the frog so it becomes an A. I used the removed wires to make these connections as they are nice and thin and solder easily to the tracks. I then soldered a dropper to one side of the A section to connect to the polarity switch on the Seep point motor. Finally I painted the insulated tip of the A section with silver conductive paint (Maplins N36BA) - this step is not essential but it does ensure continuity to the end of the frog and also improves the look of the installed point.
Thanks for the comment Peter. That's a good idea, painting the insulated part with conductive paint, I'll be looking into that, cheers!
Hi Grant, great video series on your build. I am too from Canada as another comment above, and I used to do these things (in HO scale, which I think it's the same as OO) with my dad. I believe the reason for the dip in the board is the temperature differences in your loft. Thee boards tend to expand after installed even if you let them acclimatize for a while before screwing them down. What I would suggest for future projects, do not screw them down tightly from the beginning also allowing a few mils of expansion around. After a month or so, tighten them down. You will find that if everything is tight from the beginning, the tracks may buckle as well.
Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. I've learned that Sundeala (homosote, as i think its called in North America) is rather susceptible to temperature & humidity & even though it's very easy to work with I think that if i ever build another layout i probably wouldn't use it!
Regarding the mistake you made with the points, I have a diagram I collected, and watched a video about the jumpers under the points, but you explained WHY it’s a good idea to join the bits under the points. I need as much detailed info like this as possible, so thanks.
Hi Grant
Oh bugger, I made the same mistake with the points in my rush to get some track down, it's a bit demoralising taking up the track again... at least you realised before going any further. It looked very impressive before. Hope to see another update soon.
Cheers Paul
Thanks Paul, hopefully another update within a week!
Slightly distorted and wobbly track actually looks a lot better. Its only in more recent years that laser straight high-speed tracks have been built. Pre-2000 and the tracks were always a bit skewed here and there due to the nature of it all been done by hand. These days, huge machines do all the laying and ballasting and the machines get it the same all the time.
Hi, thanks for the commet & you're right of course, perfectly straight track wasn't the norm back in the day, however i still can't help myself trying to get it as straight as possible when layting!!
Shame about the rework. I’ve just started laying track so your lesson is very useful
Nice to see your progress. I've always admired your layout plan, so it's nice to see things come together. Hopefully that dip doesn't cause problems. I have a dip and my cars/wagons uncouple, but I think my dip is deeper than yours. Thanks for the tutorial on soldering. I like the heat shrink tubing. Very secure method. Keep up the great work! -Mark
Thanks Mark. In real life of course a railway doesn't stay straight & flat for long, the ground is always moving after all.
Like you say, I think it may only be a problem if things uncouple because of the dip - we shall see!
Made exactly the same mistake, soldered my link wires with the points in situ.......what a job! Everything is double checked now.
Michael
Thanks Michael - you've got some great videos there!
Cheers Grant
Regarding the oversize dropper wire, instead of wasting the money spent on the wire, just strip it back a little further, unwind half the strands, snip them off and recover with the removed insulation or some shrink wrap.
Good video Grant...just one small error on track connectors. Peco recommend that you just remove the chairs either side of the joint then slide the joint connectors into place. You do not need to remove several sleepers. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Christopher, i didn't know that! i was basically doing what i've seen others do, which is remove the sleepers. i've still got some track to lay so i'll give that a go. Regards, Grant.
Hi Grant I have just come across your channel by accident and I'm glad I did. I have just joined your club...thanks for sharing regards Tony
Thanks Tony!
We modellers stand on the shoulders of those who come before us! An excellent video, showing warts and all. This might be an expensive option, just wondered if you sandwiched Sundeala board between two sheets of thin ply, would it prevent it warping/sagging? Still have the advantage of being able to push pins into the Sundeala after drilling a small hole in the ply. Just a random, if expensive thought. I like the idea of being able to adjust the track easily if you make an error - which I am sure I will.
Hi Grant, I have been watching all your videos since discovering your channel when you subscribed to mine. During this video I really felt for you. Discovering that you had missed those jumper wires on the points was bad enough but discovering the, and I am afraid to say it, well known Sundeala gotcha has really put a dent in your progress. I wish I had been following you from the start as I could have warned you about it. Basically Sundeala can barely support its own weight and the golden rune is to always use some other suitable sheet material under it such as ply. As this makes the whole process really expensive most people just ditch the Sundeala altogether. The problem will only get worse and trains will just look aufull running over the switchback. I am so sorry to be the barer of such bad news. I have subscribed to you and hope you can sort out the problem sooner rather than later, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,John
Very true about your comment, I also noticed and have only posted this late in the day having just viewed it and thought this may help others, is the wooden brace on the left is fitted horizontally and the one on the right is braced vertically (correctly). Fitting horizontally the wood brace can warp causing a dip. Fitting vertically the warp if it occurs will be left or right not up or down thus keeping the same level.
Hi Grant, Great progress on the track laying, looks smart. I noticed the same with the wiring on the 3 way turnouts, So I just plugged it straight into the point frog polarity relay and so far it works fine, but it's on a non scenic fiddleyard area so easy to fix if anything goes wrong. You should be able to pick up some 00 finescale wheels to replace the pizza cutters on the birds eye van and get it running on all your track :) I wonder if the dipping is from the pressure of pushing track pins down maybe? Quite odd though for sure. I did a little video on point wiring where I just solder a dropper wire across the 2 rails so that it saves you alot of extra soldering as you don't have to wire the entrance to the point. Always wise to double check that you have use the insulating joiners in the right place too, Iv'e laid it all and wired it all up before to find I used a wrong rail joiner, very annoying.
Cheers, Michael
Yes, you're right about putting the dropper wires across the point rails - it never occurred to me, great idea. I also find with finescale that the track is very sensitive to heat & if you solder too near the end the rail can lift.
Don't worry about the Intro. More time for watching
Like video."thumbs up from me".Hope there more
Rookie fan here: Wait, so the tracks give the power? I always thought the trains had built in motors that make them go..
Thank-you. Very useful!
Best wishes,
John
Thanks John, i always appreciate comments.
Missed the intro but got the adverts in a...Adverts have destroyed RUclips.
I see that you have some "Tracksetta" guides which I thought would have ensured you got perfect straight runs. With regards your bus and dropper cable, try using tri-rated cable, this type of cable can carry higher currents which means that you can use a smaller cable diameter. You should try looking at "Dean Park" or "Everard Junction" videos on You Tube for excellent tips. I have wondered about the use of sundela as a base but like MDF it is problematic in moist or humid environments so my preferred choice for practical reasons is to use a good quality plywood covered with cork and another layer of cork for the track bed.
Dean Park & Everard Junction are a constant Source of inspiration, I marvel at what the guys have done!
Sundeala can be problematic but ultimately, any wood will suffer if the railway room is exposed to large temperature variations & especially dampness, even plywood is not immune. Having said that, I think plywood is perhaps the most resilient & in hindsight I would have used that.
In the teleshots over the track I noticed the baseboards themselves have a slight hump in them, as the track drops at every baseboard joint.
My prefered material for baseboard construction is birch plywood, which is light and surprisingly strong, it is relative stable with temperature and humidity changes as well, and all these features come to great advantage in an exhibition layout.
It means, the whole baseboard is made of this material, including girders and cross braces.
Softwood has a grain that runs in one direction, but being a natural product the fibers are not running perfectly straight nor are they homogenous, which makes the material warp.
In plywood the grain is distributed crosswise in the layers, therefore it expands and contracts more evenly, and although a baseboard can shrink or expand, it does happen evenly in all 3 dimensions and doesn't warp, you only have to allow for expansion gaps between sections of track, 1mm per meter of track lenght did work for me, distributed over a couple of gaps in longer sections to avoid your wagons dropping and hopping.
On the track base I only use cork strips, or cork tiles in a yard, without any other soft material underneath, it prevents dropping pf the track at baseboard joints or when aplying spikes a bit heavy handed, as you showed.
To dampen sounds you could glue a soft material to the underside of the plywood trackbase, like the sundeala board, or like I use expanded polyurethane foam sheets
To lay track straight I use a couple of L section extruded aluminium, you cab get these in DIY stores in 1 and 2 metre lenghts, these are perfectly straight and I align one side of the sleeper web.
It works best for greater lenghts, as when you use a one or 2 foot ruler or the tracksetta guide which is also only about 2' everytime you move the ruler a slight shift of angle is possible resulting in track that isn't straight.
I use these sections also to ensure my track base is entirely flat when making my baseboards, also over the baseboard joints.
@@Tom-Lahaye very helpful. Thank you for taking the time to explain the reasons for your choices of material, and for the tips.
Hi Grant I've just came across your channel, you made a great job of your loft. I am a beginner at this game too I have hornby railmaster, my track plan is made up as I go along. I've just subscribed and look forward to watching your progress. Cheers John.
Thanks John, the loft was a massive job, i never thought i'd get it done at one point! Lots going on at the moment which is preventing me updating as often as i'd like.
You doing a great job
Thanks for the comment, much appreciated!
I've subscribed to your channel, looks like you're going to have some great content, i love to see a new layout build!
Those pre-wired are only on the electricofrog fine scale points the code 100 electofrog points you have to wire them yourself
excellent video
Cheers!
I realise it’s probably a little late now but could you not have just added extra droppers and joined them under the boards? It would have saved ripping everything up.
Nice job so far though. I was tempted to use that sundeale stuff but after seeing your problems and reading the comments I just thought bugger it I’ll stick with plywood and a layer of cork! Still working my way through your videos (I’ve subscribed) and if it’s any consolation I love the fact that you show us your mistakes. Gives the rest of us (the likes of me anyway) a lot of hope! All the best Grant.
I never actually thought of that! I could have indeed added extra droppers to get around the problem but having said that, i'm not a fan of droppers on the side of rails as they look unsightly - i mention this in my most recent video & what i plan to do in the future.
Using Sundeala does have many advantages but i think you need a good, clean space not subject to the extremes of temperature or humidity if you want to avoid problems with it & this rules out most lofts/attics/garages in the UK!
Thanks for your comments, always appreciated!
That was a bummer grant having to rip all the track up again
Yeah, i keep telling myself it could've been worse, i could've done the ballasting before realising!
1.5 and 2.5mm sq wire! These are juicy trains, 13 amps and 25 amps...
Yes, i know! in the past i have been accused of "over engineering" things, at least the wire won't over heat!
Cheers ;)
Had this 'discussion' with some so called experts on a forum today. I was saying 1.5mm conductor wire (size excluding silicone \ plastic sleeve) was good for 10 amps with about a 1.4v drop for a 10 metre length. That is way too heavy for many people's layouts. If you use a 'star' bus instead of a radial bus (which effectively mirrors the whole track circuit), your longest individual bus run is likely 1.5m tops for a 4m x 1.5m layout. You dont need really thick wire and you should be ok with 20 or even 22 AWG multi strand wire all over your layout (when using a star bus) since most of these layouts are only 5 amps current draw.
That's an interesting point. I don't know if DCC would suffer any adverse effects if a star bus system was used. In theory the shorter wire lengths should help with data integrity but i don't know enough about the technical aspects of DCC.
Yes, nothing wrong with a star bus, surprises me why people use a radial bus really. Shorter lengths so less room for voltage loss and data loss. Any rail is a great planning tool as well.
That dip is 'always' going to be a problem unless you fix it 'now'!
Put in an extra strut across the width under the diamond crossing to force the sundelia up.
If you can't access the other side (to screw in the wood from the other side) without dragging the whole thing out, use a pair of metal L-brackets and screw into the inside edge of the outer frame on the wall side.
Personally, I think sundelia is a poor choice of material, especially in a loft where the small air gaps in the material will allow it to expand and contract with the variable temperatures up there.
Plywood is a far better material, and much more rigid.
6mm ply would do the job better, even though it's harder to put pins in it.
I really hate to say things like this, because I recognise all the hard work you've already done... but I think you would be much more satisfied in the long run replacing the tops with ply.
It's only listening to the experiences of other modellers who have use sundelia in the past, who later regretted not spending a little extra and going for the ply in the first place.
And it's not as if I haven't made my own mistakes.... my first attempt at a layout was 'hardboard', with ripples all over it, and then chipboard, which weighs a ton!
Thanks for taking the time to post, I always appreciate it when people take the time to write something.
You're not the first to say I should fix the dip & that's what i'm doing, before going any further.
You also raise some interesting points about sundeala. In the back of my mind i have been wondering how it will be affected by the significant temperature changes in the loft & I will be watching what happens over the coming year but i did insulate the loft to try & even the temperature & I've also installed a dehumidifier to try & maintain a constant moisture level - which is probably more of an enemy for sundeala.
Regards
No problem.
I suppose when it comes down to it, we have to look at the old saying "the key to success is a good foundation" and ask "is this going to be a suitable foundation for this project? :^)
Many moons ago I made the mistake of using a masonite board. Couldn't get anything, nails or pins through that.
.hello,you use green wire for the frog just like Charlie Bishop of Chadwick . Did you looked at his videos?
Thanks for the comment. Yes, Charlie's channel is excellent! Regards, Grant.
HOLD THE CAMERA STILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tripod!!!
Not certain about the points made but ,if anyone else wants to uncover how to build a model railroad layout and scenery try Pycanta Model Railroaders Protocol (just google it ) ? Ive heard some incredible things about it and my mate got great results with it.
I’ve counted every product in this video and in current costs in pounds it’s £3441
Hahaha, purchased little bit at a time over the years. Should see my collection.
Cutting the links on the points means you will have to use a point motor from the off to power and control polarity of the frog.
EDIT... My apologies. I've just seen your latest video and see that you are installing point motors.
The crossing tracks, in the title photo, are they proto typical of a train line? Why not just curve with parallel lines, less change of crashing.
I don't actually know if this layout is prototypical Phil! Most of the plan is based on one taken from a Cyril Freezer track plan book with a few tweaks here there.
I was right in thinking Sunderland, the wife thought you were from Darlington! ! Would like to meet up sometime if you're up for it? You're a lot more computer savvy than myself!
That's a future possibility, although things are crazy at work at the moment with the threat of redundancy plus my mam has a debilitating illness so, like you, i'm a little time short!
Not sure if i am more 'computer savvy' but i'll certainly try & help wherever possible.
Your layout is fantastic BTW, made even more impressive by the fact that you designed it yourself, you should get more videos uploaded, you'd quickly build a large following i think.
Finally, you mention itrain in one of your vid's, i was going to go with that but i'm now leaning more towards Train Controller (not cheap i know). have a look at it & the great tutorials from Ruud Boer.
Hi Grant, thanks for the comment bud. I've subscribed to Ruuds channel, been watching him for a while. Look up James Hudson at DCC Train Automation in Taunton. He can advise on many systems. Let me know if you fancy a chat sometime?
Cheers,
Daz
Hi Grant, I've just subscribed to your channel, got a few more videos to watch. I too, am an ECoS user and I'm still at the track laying stage with my loft layout.
Can you tell me where you're based, I'm in Hebburn and I'm guessing from your accent that you're not too far from me?
Kind regards,
Darren
Hi Darren, thanks for the sub, I'll have a look at your layout videos later tonight. Yes, you're right with the accent, I'm in Sunderland.
Grant Williams
Please forgive my ignorance but as you are using sundeala, why did you also use a cork track bed?
Hi John, the cork provides a shoulder for ballasting in a modern style so it's more relevant if you're modelling modern image. some people also use it as it's supposed to help with quiet running which is also often why they use sundeala. Hope that answers your question!
Thanks, that makes sense. I am only just returning to the hobby after some 30 years.
I’ve found despite using cork the hardened ballast adds the sound/noise back in!
What size heat shrink were you using and where did you say you can buy it?
Hi, thanks for the comment. The heatshrink required depends on the wire/cable you're using it on. Most of the wires i use are around 3mm or less in diamter so i use 3.2mm heatshrink, this shrinks to around 1.5mm. Most heatshrink has a 2:1 shrink ratio but there are some that will shrink 3:1 or greater although you pay more for those. I get mine from CPC but it's commonly available in several places, ebay, mouser or rapid electronics to name a few. just make sure that the starting size is big enough to just go over the cable your're covering. hope that helps!
Why are there spaces between the tracks?
I am at the layout planning stage for a 24' x 9' loft area. I want to use Peco 75 track. My problem is that unlike Hornby track the points are not the same length as a unit of track. If one has a double track linked by points the track will thus be out of kilter at the next bend where you want to maintain parallel tracks. How do you overcome this without cutting track or using flexitrack?
It's a good idea to use code 75 & use electrofrog points too.
If you do use code 75 track, you have no option but to use flexitrack as Peco don't make code 75 set track. It's not as difficult as it may first appear, use Tracksetta curves & track gauges to help with alignment.
Only standard Hornby track & Peco Setrack has a fixed geometry.
I forgot to mention, use planning software if you have a computer, (I really like Any Rail) as this helps greatly with track geometry & dimensions.
What are the Sleeper gaps for?? Track expansion or something?
With flexitrack the sleepers go right to the end of the rail. You have to cut off a few sleepers at each end of the track in order to fit the fishplates as they wouldn't slide on otherwise. If you look at set track there's usually a little part of the sleeper cut away at the rail ends so the fishlates can slide on.
In hindsight, there are many instances where i probably cut back the sleepers too much!
Some modellers don't remove the whole sleeper, they carefully cut away the chair on the sleeper at the rail ends so the fishplate can slide on, i havent tried this method however.
Regards Grant.
@@GrantWilliamsRailway What a joke ~ I just laid 9 boxes of Peco SL-100 with no sleeper gaps anywhere ~ at points, mid track, on curves, anywhere. Done right the first time and I don't have to go back and make good later and it looks a dawn better job from A-Z ~ yet we have experienced modellers who still can't do it.. It's not rocket science! Removing the chair is the key..
Where does one from Canada buy the PECO "N" scale three way switch (turnout). I have tried RR shops within 75 miles of my home and have even used a magazine that advertisers are listed in (www) to see if they had this 3 way turnout from PECO. If anyone has information or knows how I may get the "N" 3 way turnout, please advise me. I cannot get connection with PECO so I am lost.
Hi Harold. According to the Peco website there are three official distributors of Peco products in Canada, might be worth trying one of those directly.
Oh dear, not sundela!
Yes i know! It has proved to be "somewhat troublesome".
Interesting thanks. What thickness cork do you use?
Hi Phil. I can't actually find the order (i got it off ebay) but i think it's 2 or 3mm, certainly no thicker.
@@GrantWilliamsRailway thank you
You accent sounds very Durham/Ferryhill'ish?
Hi Matty, close - i live in Sunderland!
Excellent video. I'm sure I will need you help in the future. I have lots of question relating to DCC and Train controller... could you help ?
I'll do what i can to help Alan, but I'm mostly just learning this as i go along! It's been over 35 years since I've done any railway modelling & the hobby has changed enormously, fortunately for us all there are some amazingly good videos on here to help us along.
Nice to see you are back into modelling Grant Its come a long way since we started years ago with our Traing railway stuff.
what track do you use?
Peco code 75
where did you purchase those turnouts
All the track is peco finescale & i bought it from Rails of Sheffield or from the track shack in the isle of man. Cheers.
your assertion about solder being merely providing mechanical strength and NOT electrical connection would appear to be a contradiction of everything I have ever heard. It sounds like nonsense just as long as you have used a good flux and not produced a dry joint.
I take your point & perhaps i didn't word it very well, my intention was to emphasise that a better conection is obtained if the two items being joined are in contact rather than relying on a solder bridge.
Sometimes wonder why some people who havn't a clue what they doing, seem to think that it is important to put out an instructional video of "how to do it" ?. Having said that, I will be first to say that I am far from knowing how to do all things correctly, BUT, I do make sure I read and learn before as much as I can before attempting anything.
Thanks for the comment Jim. Not sure if it's in this video but i often say that i don't do "how to videos", rather, i do videos showing "this is the way i did it" & i try a show any mistakes i make.
@@GrantWilliamsRailway showing how and why things go wrong is equally as educational as seeing things done correctly, so thank you for showing it Grant. A big thumbs up from me.
COPPER WIRE IS BETTER
pretty lousy camera angle. why not just shut off the camera and do a voice only,... I'm assuming most people would rather see how to solder than how to strip wire...FFS