@@ruialmeida818 Sumo wrestling is the grand father of aikido and yes there's difference with atemi from ninjutsu, aiki jitsu and aikido but the concept is the same, to stun opponent to make waza easier to apply. Do you know if they have a whole hour video of these toshu randori competition?
I was there for this match, for the whole tournament actually, and I know that these two men are excellent Aikido players. Toshu Randori is not the most practical, but it is not "patty cake" either. This particular event takes great timing, speed and ability to break balance. Also, I have never seen a game of "patty cake" look like it does at 1:43.
If these guys keep doing this type of training they will eventually start to hone techniques. At least they are trying. Of course wrestling or judo is light years ahead of them but they are trying to figure it out.
What's the purpose of trying to reinvented the wheel however? Are you trying to be different or to be a better fighter? If it's the latter, just join a wrestling or judo gym!
I really appreciate the aspect of competition as it makes the martial arts journey a lot more science- and evidence-based, and I hope more aikido gyms catch on. However I would love to see if a branch of aikido could broaden itself by removing some grabbing restrictions whose main purpose seems to be preventing non-aikido-looking moves. It would also be great to see a knife attack ruleset with reduced restrictions on the knife attacker. Even if some competitions turn into looking more like Judo or wrestling, the style would still have knife defense competition, which is not found in any other style of martial arts.
La razón por la que se limitan a que sea Aikido es por el ideal de evitar ser agresivo actuando salvajemente, por eso el dominio de técnicas es importante y mantener la cabeza fría, aunque al usar defensa personal el Aikido de Tomiki es libre y creativo, se permiten patadas en los atemis y sujeción de piernas como en el Judo
Without getting into any thoughts on the effectiveness of Aikido in general, I´m just wondering whether the rule set of this kind of competition could be improved. I wonder what it would look like if they had gis on and were allowed to grab the sleeves or any part of each other´s arms. It seems like in this competition form, it´s very rare for the competitors to pull off any successful techniques and this change would probably make it somewhat easier.
@@rokkvi1 it’s going to be hard regardless, because the moves need commitment by an overextended attacker. I like that they are trying to get to the truth of it (non-ironic).
@@eclipsewrecker you are probably right. I see Aikido on it´s own as being almost completely ineffective in a real fight, but possible to use if you are in good shape and against someone who is not a big threat. Alternatively I see it as something that has a few things that could be added to Judo or BJJ, but I´d always advocate for something like Judo, BJJ, Sambo or wrestling, where you can just press the action and don´t have to wait for someone else to overextend themselves or even attack you - while still having the possibility of disabling someone without causing much harm.
@@rokkvi1 I think that's the problem with things taking on lives of their own. First wave Aikido was all high level martial artists. So it literally was just adding this skill to all the other skills. Then, it became it's own thing. That's like taking the red dot sight off a gun, and calling it it's own weapon. Red dot sights are great, B they need mounted on a gun. Teaching "aikido" to a Judo however many degree black belt, is putting a red dot sight on a gun. Training a new person in aikido is like handing your army red dot sights and wondering why your gun-less army just lost a war.
I was at this Nationals Tournament/Seminars event (saw a glimpse of me standing in the back corner!) and I think a little context might be helpful. This was the first National where the TAA was reintroducing toshu randori. Toshu randori used to be done many years earlier, along with tanto randori, but the toshu randori was eventually discarded due to it often turning into a wrestling match with players using muscle rather than kuzushi and idoryoku, etc. So, many years later the TAA leadership wanted to try and bring it back, with some new emphasis on trying to avoid the wrestling and grappling and it devolving into a muscle match. So, without much fresh experience, I think it was a noble first-year effort. There is still some devolving into wrestling and strength battling, but with continued effort it should get better. However, there is a fundamental challenge with toshu randori I think. It's different from tanto randori where there is a clear uke and clear tori during the match. With toshu randori the players have to vary their roles and be both uke and tori - to sometimes make attacks and this is not "natural" for aikidoka in a real-world full-resistance setting. In a real life full-resistance setting aikidoka are much better at letting an attacker attack (actually wanting a committed attack) before making a move. So it's quite a different mindset than tanto randori where the roles are fixed.
Robert Mayer bullshit I am a 3rd Dan tomiki toshu randori should be taught in every lesson . There is no excuse for this embarrassing display.. it is awful.
are you part of any aikido organization? I am trying to pull some strings with Lenny sly, Dan the wolfman, Roy Dean to maybe set up aiki grappling tournament. Lenny sly or rogue warriors said that might be possibility if he had at least around 100 people backing him up. Are you interested or do you know people who would be?
These two gentlemen make an honest effort to try their Aikido techniques against somewhat real resistance. But unfortunately their techniques betray them. They feel obliged to go for Aikido moves that do not work, although they would have easily throw each other if they knew basic judo or wrestling. In the end, just like every person that is left free to grapple, they basically wrestle with their opponent. But they wrestle in a very bad and tepid way...Still, it is good that unlike the traditional aikido guys, at least they spar...
I wouldn't say that they don't work, as I've seen similar movements used in MMA, judo and BJJ (mostly shomen-ate, gyaku-gamae-ate, gedan-ate, waki-gatame and 1 other I'm forgetting) They would most certainly work in tandem with those other arts very well. I think Tomiki aikido dojo need to work with MMA gyms to add it to the mix and promote their techniques if they want to survive in today's martial arts world. If karate, TKD and similar martial arts can work in MMA when you know wrestling, BJJ, muay thai and boxing... Why not aikido?
I totally disagree with you because they know the techniques of their opponent so they can nullify them. Doesn't mean they don't work. What happened after BJJ became famous? People went out and learned BJJ and those that were winning so much stopped. I do however hold dan ranks in Aikido and Judo. Tomiki did as well which is where this comes from. To me they are the same art, just at different distances.
But the winners are still winning using recognizable BJJ techniques! Same with in Judo! Same with in wrestling! Where is the Aikido here? I don't recognize any of it. This is more like watching two skinny sumo wrestler wannabes.
@@chaos_omega we just watched the national finals of Tomiki aikido and not 1 throw was used. Open your eyes.Aikido doesn't work against a resisting opponent.
Toshu Randori needs the Gi, approved grips to gi, approved atemi, right of way, ma-ai, and kuzushi. Without these things it will become either a greco-roman wrestling or judo match, because the focus of aikido is to counter grasps and strikes, like a hockey fight, not clinches and throws. The best training for both Tanto Randori and Toshu Randori is Tankendo, because it gives both randori methods context. Think of tanto randori as tankendo with only one tanto instead of two; then think of toshu randori as tankendo with the tegatana as the tanto, which gives context to use the tai sabaki, unsoku, tegatana dosa, kumi kata, shizei, attack angle of the atemi, ma-ai from Uke, kuzushi, and nage waza, because all of them connected determine the required conditions necessary to do the techniques.
I´m no expert on this, but it seems to me that yes, you need the gi if you want to have an Aikido competition. Wrist grabs to throws are just so much harder without any sleeves. I think this kind of Aikido competition, if done in the gi, could be a lot like Judo with only sleeve grips. Whether that is something that is worth having as a competition could be debated, but it seems to be the most sensible way to make a competitive form of Aikido.
I like the idea of introducing more possible grips. But I disagree with using the gi to facilitate it. People don't always have clothes on when they fight. In fact, it's common for men to take off their shirts before engaging in violence. I feel that wrestling and muay thai style grips are better to learn. Russian ties, collar ties, bicep control, underhooks, etc... If you don't want it to become too much like Olympic wrestling, maybe restrict underhooks/leg grabbing to one at a time and no locking the hands (as in folkstyle wrestling.) Also newaza should be covered in competition. Aikido newaza seems to have a different goal of immobilizing the uke face down. This could offer a unique form of competition and perhaps NEW techniques could be developed.
Reach out to Dan the wolfman, and I think you should allow gi grips because doesn't aikido have break out techniques against gi grips? Have traditional aikido gi
@Cameron Webster I don't know right now, I'm trying to gather like 90 people. Could you bring people along to compete? The Lenny sly team seems like they're on, you have connect to any aikido organization?
@Cameron Webster I'm also looking from outside perspective on this with aikido being the martial art I know least of, I know mainly striking arts but still from some various grappling arts as judo, ninjutsu and such. I have reached out to some aikidokas on RUclips, but I'm fasting this month, so I won't be doing much of that this month. But leave a comment on Lenny Sly's latest video, that you're in on this and say you will help me find more people ready to establish the aikido tournament movement. I appreciate that, respect man
@Cameron Webster ruclips.net/video/o9tXI3xl9FA/видео.html A challenge from Dan the Wolfman, could you share this? I think got Dan the Wolfman started again
I won't blame the Aikido for this video. Not the art but those that train it. There are plenty of video on YT that shows some really great execution of Aikido technique in a real resistant but controlled tournaments. Just so happens this is not one of those. People who watch this and consider this a skilled execution of a street or combat effective Aikido clearly haven't seen an effective combat / street Aikido. I can see why people think Aikido is a joke, when I watch this kind of video but those that want to believe that you can keep on believing. Good chance you will never find an effective "street" Aikidoist but be warned there are those who can effectively apply Aikido in a real life situation and I tell you it can be painful and deadly.
Links to those videos, please. Shodokan is one of the most effective styles of aikido I've ever seen, simply because they actually spar & practice with resistance... Something most aikidoka can't be bothered to do. Aikidoka, I beg you... Move beyond the teachings of O'sensei, aikido is more than Ueshiba. Do not forget his words, but there is no need for strict adherence. Martial arts is not religion.
Tomiki concept is a step in the right direction but honestly feel all styles of aikido need to glove up and spar resistively with other styles. The thought that two aikidoka would actually fight goes against the very core philosophy of O'Sensei's art.
awful the worst randori I have ever seen . I was hoping it would be like the randori when I started. without the tanto which has ruined randori in tomiki. but this is far worse.
It may be that the level of sport aikido in North America is not as high as in other places. Russia, UK and Japan seem to be the hotspots for this sport. I hope the level of popularity increases, bringing more athletic people into the sport... But, I doubt it. I think they need to change their image and their rules in order to flourish. Get rid of the tanto, for sure though.
So when the shit gets real aikido doesn't work? No fancy throws like we see in all the demonstrations and that all the fanboys swear that work in real situations?
Add to my earlier comments. . This is not toshu randori I have no idea what this is .. No throws , no balance breaks, no techniques, no atemi, no aikido just awful
It's better than any aikido you could ever do, based on your comment. I bet any one of these guys could throw you like a ragdoll, simply because they probably have more experience going up against someone resisting their techniques. If you can do better, please upload a video showing us...
Davi Stanesco Aikido wasn't design to act like a sport mate... but your comment was heard several times in the 60's and 70's regarding Judo... it was ignorant then the same waay you're ignorant now... still, this isn't what aikido aims, I'll give you that.
Yeah, that's like saying when two boxers or two wrestlers come to a stalemate that boxing doesn't work against boxing or wrestling doesn't work against wrestling. This is better aikido than any of the style that don't spar, that is for certain. That being said, they could use some improvements to their rules and their set of techniques.
Aikido without atemi is like a garden without roses - it's missing a huge part of it's core.
They should have sumo slap atemi
@@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh atemi in aikido is done with taisabaki... in sumo it's done with forward movement... hardly the same thing
@@ruialmeida818 Sumo wrestling is the grand father of aikido and yes there's difference with atemi from ninjutsu, aiki jitsu and aikido but the concept is the same, to stun opponent to make waza easier to apply. Do you know if they have a whole hour video of these toshu randori competition?
@@ruialmeida818 no sumo use tai sabaki as well but yes there focus is to remain in the ring or push the other one out
@@ruialmeida818 ruclips.net/video/0zjA3KPnLK8/видео.html
Wouldn't you call his footwork tai sabaki?
I was there for this match, for the whole tournament actually, and I know that these two men are excellent Aikido players. Toshu Randori is not the most practical, but it is not "patty cake" either. This particular event takes great timing, speed and ability to break balance. Also, I have never seen a game of "patty cake" look like it does at 1:43.
Such a strange rule set, but I enjoy watching.
If these guys keep doing this type of training they will eventually start to hone techniques. At least they are trying. Of course wrestling or judo is light years ahead of them but they are trying to figure it out.
What's the purpose of trying to reinvented the wheel however?
Are you trying to be different or to be a better fighter? If it's the latter, just join a wrestling or judo gym!
Lmao dude what in the world is this?
Thank you for the wonderful video. Finally Aikido sparring!
I really appreciate the aspect of competition as it makes the martial arts journey a lot more science- and evidence-based, and I hope more aikido gyms catch on. However I would love to see if a branch of aikido could broaden itself by removing some grabbing restrictions whose main purpose seems to be preventing non-aikido-looking moves. It would also be great to see a knife attack ruleset with reduced restrictions on the knife attacker. Even if some competitions turn into looking more like Judo or wrestling, the style would still have knife defense competition, which is not found in any other style of martial arts.
La razón por la que se limitan a que sea Aikido es por el ideal de evitar ser agresivo actuando salvajemente, por eso el dominio de técnicas es importante y mantener la cabeza fría, aunque al usar defensa personal el Aikido de Tomiki es libre y creativo, se permiten patadas en los atemis y sujeción de piernas como en el Judo
Without getting into any thoughts on the effectiveness of Aikido in general, I´m just wondering whether the rule set of this kind of competition could be improved. I wonder what it would look like if they had gis on and were allowed to grab the sleeves or any part of each other´s arms. It seems like in this competition form, it´s very rare for the competitors to pull off any successful techniques and this change would probably make it somewhat easier.
I don’t think aikido ‘allows’ gi grabs.
@@eclipsewrecker that´s gonna make it (keep it) very hard for them to execute moves in this sort of a competition
@@rokkvi1 it’s going to be hard regardless, because the moves need commitment by an overextended attacker. I like that they are trying to get to the truth of it (non-ironic).
@@eclipsewrecker you are probably right. I see Aikido on it´s own as being almost completely ineffective in a real fight, but possible to use if you are in good shape and against someone who is not a big threat.
Alternatively I see it as something that has a few things that could be added to Judo or BJJ, but I´d always advocate for something like Judo, BJJ, Sambo or wrestling, where you can just press the action and don´t have to wait for someone else to overextend themselves or even attack you - while still having the possibility of disabling someone without causing much harm.
@@rokkvi1 I think that's the problem with things taking on lives of their own. First wave Aikido was all high level martial artists.
So it literally was just adding this skill to all the other skills. Then, it became it's own thing.
That's like taking the red dot sight off a gun, and calling it it's own weapon. Red dot sights are great, B they need mounted on a gun. Teaching "aikido" to a Judo however many degree black belt, is putting a red dot sight on a gun. Training a new person in aikido is like handing your army red dot sights and wondering why your gun-less army just lost a war.
I was at this Nationals Tournament/Seminars event (saw a glimpse of me standing in the back corner!) and I think a little context might be helpful. This was the first National where the TAA was reintroducing toshu randori. Toshu randori used to be done many years earlier, along with tanto randori, but the toshu randori was eventually discarded due to it often turning into a wrestling match with players using muscle rather than kuzushi and idoryoku, etc. So, many years later the TAA leadership wanted to try and bring it back, with some new emphasis on trying to avoid the wrestling and grappling and it devolving into a muscle match. So, without much fresh experience, I think it was a noble first-year effort. There is still some devolving into wrestling and strength battling, but with continued effort it should get better.
However, there is a fundamental challenge with toshu randori I think. It's different from tanto randori where there is a clear uke and clear tori during the match. With toshu randori the players have to vary their roles and be both uke and tori - to sometimes make attacks and this is not "natural" for aikidoka in a real-world full-resistance setting. In a real life full-resistance setting aikidoka are much better at letting an attacker attack (actually wanting a committed attack) before making a move. So it's quite a different mindset than tanto randori where the roles are fixed.
Robert Mayer bullshit I am a 3rd Dan tomiki toshu randori should be taught in every lesson .
There is no excuse for this embarrassing display.. it is awful.
It's bullshit that they are inexperienced in Toshu Randori? Not all dojos are the same.
are you part of any aikido organization? I am trying to pull some strings with Lenny sly, Dan the wolfman, Roy Dean to maybe set up aiki grappling tournament. Lenny sly or rogue warriors said that might be possibility if he had at least around 100 people backing him up.
Are you interested or do you know people who would be?
Please make this happen
Very interesting. Very cool. 👍
Basic judo would work. They just need to understand and learn about kuzushi.
Really, they should be trained together. The founder of this style was a judoka.
@@chaos_omega can i defeat a black belt olympic judoka, if i do 15 years of aikido, without cross training?
@@sampokemppainen3041 No.
@@sampokemppainen3041 ei missään nimessä, aikidosta edes tomiki aikidosta ei ole mihinkään
@@sampokemppainen3041 You almost certainly wouldn't even be able to beat a regular Judoka black belt, let alone Olympic level.
These two gentlemen make an honest effort to try their Aikido techniques against somewhat real resistance. But unfortunately their techniques betray them. They feel obliged to go for Aikido moves that do not work, although they would have easily throw each other if they knew basic judo or wrestling. In the end, just like every person that is left free to grapple, they basically wrestle with their opponent. But they wrestle in a very bad and tepid way...Still, it is good that unlike the traditional aikido guys, at least they spar...
I wouldn't say that they don't work, as I've seen similar movements used in MMA, judo and BJJ (mostly shomen-ate, gyaku-gamae-ate, gedan-ate, waki-gatame and 1 other I'm forgetting) They would most certainly work in tandem with those other arts very well. I think Tomiki aikido dojo need to work with MMA gyms to add it to the mix and promote their techniques if they want to survive in today's martial arts world. If karate, TKD and similar martial arts can work in MMA when you know wrestling, BJJ, muay thai and boxing... Why not aikido?
I totally disagree with you because they know the techniques of their opponent so they can nullify them. Doesn't mean they don't work. What happened after BJJ became famous? People went out and learned BJJ and those that were winning so much stopped. I do however hold dan ranks in Aikido and Judo. Tomiki did as well which is where this comes from. To me they are the same art, just at different distances.
But the winners are still winning using recognizable BJJ techniques! Same with in Judo! Same with in wrestling! Where is the Aikido here? I don't recognize any of it. This is more like watching two skinny sumo wrestler wannabes.
@@chaos_omega we just watched the national finals of Tomiki aikido and not 1 throw was used.
Open your eyes.Aikido doesn't work against a resisting opponent.
@@theoptionaut.tailer7501 exactly.....Where were the aikido techniques?
There weren't any because it doesn't work.
Martial arts journey brought me here
Toshu Randori needs the Gi, approved grips to gi, approved atemi, right of way, ma-ai, and kuzushi. Without these things it will become either a greco-roman wrestling or judo match, because the focus of aikido is to counter grasps and strikes, like a hockey fight, not clinches and throws. The best training for both Tanto Randori and Toshu Randori is Tankendo, because it gives both randori methods context. Think of tanto randori as tankendo with only one tanto instead of two; then think of toshu randori as tankendo with the tegatana as the tanto, which gives context to use the tai sabaki, unsoku, tegatana dosa, kumi kata, shizei, attack angle of the atemi, ma-ai from Uke, kuzushi, and nage waza, because all of them connected determine the required conditions necessary to do the techniques.
I´m no expert on this, but it seems to me that yes, you need the gi if you want to have an Aikido competition. Wrist grabs to throws are just so much harder without any sleeves. I think this kind of Aikido competition, if done in the gi, could be a lot like Judo with only sleeve grips. Whether that is something that is worth having as a competition could be debated, but it seems to be the most sensible way to make a competitive form of Aikido.
I like the idea of introducing more possible grips. But I disagree with using the gi to facilitate it. People don't always have clothes on when they fight. In fact, it's common for men to take off their shirts before engaging in violence. I feel that wrestling and muay thai style grips are better to learn. Russian ties, collar ties, bicep control, underhooks, etc... If you don't want it to become too much like Olympic wrestling, maybe restrict underhooks/leg grabbing to one at a time and no locking the hands (as in folkstyle wrestling.) Also newaza should be covered in competition. Aikido newaza seems to have a different goal of immobilizing the uke face down. This could offer a unique form of competition and perhaps NEW techniques could be developed.
Reach out to Dan the wolfman, and I think you should allow gi grips because doesn't aikido have break out techniques against gi grips? Have traditional aikido gi
@Cameron Webster where are you located? I been trying to set up an aikido tournament, I think we need more aikidokas like you
@Cameron Webster I don't know right now, I'm trying to gather like 90 people. Could you bring people along to compete? The Lenny sly team seems like they're on, you have connect to any aikido organization?
@Cameron Webster I'm also looking from outside perspective on this with aikido being the martial art I know least of, I know mainly striking arts but still from some various grappling arts as judo, ninjutsu and such. I have reached out to some aikidokas on RUclips, but I'm fasting this month, so I won't be doing much of that this month.
But leave a comment on Lenny Sly's latest video, that you're in on this and say you will help me find more people ready to establish the aikido tournament movement.
I appreciate that, respect man
@Cameron Webster ruclips.net/video/4oU5WGCsQ7k/видео.html
Thx a lot man, appreciate it, could you let this channel know as well?
@Cameron Webster ruclips.net/video/o9tXI3xl9FA/видео.html
A challenge from Dan the Wolfman, could you share this?
I think got Dan the Wolfman started again
I won't blame the Aikido for this video. Not the art but those that train it. There are plenty of video on YT that shows some really great execution of Aikido technique in a real resistant but controlled tournaments. Just so happens this is not one of those. People who watch this and consider this a skilled execution of a street or combat effective Aikido clearly haven't seen an effective combat / street Aikido. I can see why people think Aikido is a joke, when I watch this kind of video but those that want to believe that you can keep on believing. Good chance you will never find an effective "street" Aikidoist but be warned there are those who can effectively apply Aikido in a real life situation and I tell you it can be painful and deadly.
Links to those videos, please.
Shodokan is one of the most effective styles of aikido I've ever seen, simply because they actually spar & practice with resistance... Something most aikidoka can't be bothered to do.
Aikidoka, I beg you... Move beyond the teachings of O'sensei, aikido is more than Ueshiba. Do not forget his words, but there is no need for strict adherence. Martial arts is not religion.
Tomiki concept is a step in the right direction but honestly feel all styles of aikido need to glove up and spar resistively with other styles. The thought that two aikidoka would actually fight goes against the very core philosophy of O'Sensei's art.
When is next tournament coming?
That waki gatame was intense
awful the worst randori I have ever seen . I was hoping it would be like the randori when I started. without the tanto which has ruined randori in tomiki. but this is far worse.
It may be that the level of sport aikido in North America is not as high as in other places. Russia, UK and Japan seem to be the hotspots for this sport. I hope the level of popularity increases, bringing more athletic people into the sport... But, I doubt it. I think they need to change their image and their rules in order to flourish. Get rid of the tanto, for sure though.
You have to be kidding me.
No disrespect to anyone. But I saw no budo here.
Probably because you don't understand what you are looking at.
So when the shit gets real aikido doesn't work?
No fancy throws like we see in all the demonstrations and that all the fanboys swear that work in real situations?
Add to my earlier comments. . This is not toshu randori I have no idea what this is ..
No throws , no balance breaks, no techniques, no atemi, no aikido just awful
So post a video showing how it's supposed to be done.
Just type in Toshu Randori and wala.
Did neither of you fellas make it all the way to 1:43 before you felt the need to comment...?
that is not Aikido , that is realy nonsens
It's better than any aikido you could ever do, based on your comment. I bet any one of these guys could throw you like a ragdoll, simply because they probably have more experience going up against someone resisting their techniques. If you can do better, please upload a video showing us...
それな
LOL...years to training...to look like children who can't figure out how to hug each other!
Oke now they like bjj😂😅
Such a pathetic try to show what Toshu randori is. No kudzushi, no well done techniques, no DOGI put on. Black belt Tomiki aikido? Really?! Shame
Referee... Omg.. the beach boy
Aikido doesn't work even against aikido.
Davi Stanesco Aikido wasn't design to act like a sport mate... but your comment was heard several times in the 60's and 70's regarding Judo... it was ignorant then the same waay you're ignorant now... still, this isn't what aikido aims, I'll give you that.
Yeah, that's like saying when two boxers or two wrestlers come to a stalemate that boxing doesn't work against boxing or wrestling doesn't work against wrestling. This is better aikido than any of the style that don't spar, that is for certain. That being said, they could use some improvements to their rules and their set of techniques.
Pointless waste of time.