This is just legal CYA from Porsche. If you don't defend IP you lose the right to it. My suspicion is that Porsche is happy to have Singer do their thing, but needs a case and settlement on file in order to protect its IP from other parties.
That's overly optimistic, and a lawsuit isn't the appropriate approach for that. If that was Porsche's intent, they could have sold a license to Singer for $1. This way, they can defend their IP in the future by arguing that Singer asked and paid for permission. Porsche is just jealous of the mountain of money Singer makes "off their back" year over year.
Why would Porsche ruin their classic cars by restomoding them and destroying the marque’s history? And they did listen and put the manual back in the GT3.
Porsche have listened, somewhat. Adding the manual option back, which did upset a lot of 911 R owners. Singer are not Porsche though and I think the Singer impact on corporate Porsche may be overrated. I think it comes down to the badging and the naming, that’s where the fight is I believe
Its diluting because porsche cannot sell anymore analog cars in that volume. So it has to sell a new ideology that is not the same as the traditional porsche of even 20 years ago.
Here's the thing. When these cars were built and sold by Porsche they used the best technology & R&D that Porsche was prepared to spend on any given model. So a 70s Porsche would have 70s technology and so on. If people want to modify from that base fair enough. .. Porsche would have made a driver's car that would appeal to the widest customer base as possible with the existing technology of that time be it 70,80,90,00s. There will always be room for improvement. .. Yet this costs money & i guess Porsche would prefer to make a profit on each car sold. So in other words. The amount of R&D that goes into a Singer would be far too expensive for mass production by Porsche..unless you want $1M price tag. .. It is alleged that every Buggati Veyron sold VW lost money on due to the complexity of the car.
Yep. When it comes to EV's there no character to distinguish one from another. Part of the appeal of Porsche is the powertrain and the magic they work on them and the gearboxes. When everything is a fast, well handling EV built on a low center of gravity sled of batteries, why the hell would I spend a premium to the get the Porsche version? It would be like buying a Porsche vacuum cleaner...like why? I don't think manufacturers are properly factoring this in. If we're going to build and market them like appliances the people are going to start buying them like they do appliances. Something cheap, fancy looking, and has a good warranty.
How comes Singer take the rap from Porsche when Bimoto and Electrogenic make Porsche 911 electric cars or is it the fact that these are conversions . Bimoto make the most amazing cars especially the 935 race car replica electric . However .😊
Ruf has been modifying and improving Porsches for 4 decades. The only difference between Singer and Ruf is Ruf registered themselves as an auto manufacturer in Germany at their outset. They get bodies in white and engines from Porsche and go crazy from there. This might give Ruf the unassailable position of being a manufacturer while singer is legally an infringer. They both do the same thing but have different legal status.
@@pervertt I don't think that's 100% correct. I remember during his early interviews, Rob was saying that one could bring his 964 for the "reimagining"... but they were also searching&buying 964s for themselves, too!!!
In the beginning RUF got Porsche bodies in white ,that is no longer the case Ruf builds its own bodies and uses Porsche supplied engine casings and all the engines are now built in-house by RUF.
@@ChrisSaddlerSam I stand corrected if that is the case. Whatever Singer does, I understand there is not much of the original car that is kept in the final product.
SUVs have definitely helped the sustainability of the brand, exactly why even Ferrari are doing it, even though it’s a significantly different price bracket
Except it’s still a registered Porsche automobile, there in lies the problem…RUF puts their own VIN and registration on them….Singer can’t do that with classic models
I would say the Cayenne because without the Cayenne there wouldn’t be a Macan or Panamera. Also the Macan and Panamera are still produced in Germany while the Cayenne is made in Slovakia
@@OutlawGarage My condolences :/ Porsche shoud have sat back smiling easily and said "Yes, Singer 911's are awesome...we know". Singer makes Porsche's better name better, not worse.
@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus yes, you’re right. On one hand they saved Porsche as it is but on the other they aren’t what many see as Porsche (including myself). What I like most about Porsche 4 door cars is that they finance the development of small series cars like the Carrera GT or 918
So... years ago, PORSCHE took legal action against SINGER saying that the company could not create a product that would confuse the market into believing it was a SINGER product, and not a "PORSCHE 911". SINGER and PORSCHE arrived at an agreement whereby any marketing of the SINGER product must be described as a "PORSCHE 911 reimagined by SINGER Vehicle Design". At the same time, the SINGER badging on the car was reduced in size/prominence. So... for PORSCHE to now raise a legal case saying SINGER can't have prominent PORSCHE badging on the finished product makes no sense. I think the commentator here is just playing guesswork, and that we need to wait for real details.
Porsche is mad they didn't think of developing a program like this before Singer did. They didn't think, 13 years ago, there was a market for bespoke, retro-designed 911's starting at £350k (now £750k). Boy, were they wrong.
Yep, it's ruining their trying to turn folks to their EVs. Singer forces folks to remember that an expensive street Porsche is supposed to be about driving emotion not ultimate lap times.
@@anydaynow01 Singer cars are significantly more expensive than any car Porsche sells today and are a drop in the sea compared to the numbers they're dealing with. Singer is a boutique coach builder for few rich individuals who want a new car that is definitely a Porsche, but not the kind Porsche could produce today because of regulations. The two markets are completely apart from each other.
RUF aren’t allowed to stick Porsche badges and names on their cars. Porsche are entitled to defend their brand. They already got the brand removed from the All-terrain competition study.
RUF and Singer do different things. RUF is registered as a manufacturer, and sell whole cars, with different model names, outside of Porsche nomenclature. Singer does not.
@@colnagog6026 It's only because of how US laws are structured and written regarding who is an automaker and who is not, that Singer doesn't have to bring their end products up to current standards and laws. You have the original VIN and maybe keep certain key bits of the donor, you still have a "30+ year old car" after the mods are all said and done. That's a huge loophole when looking at how just little of the original 964 Singer actually uses in their final build. In considering how extensively Singer modifies the 964 and is now intending on doing the G-series 911 Turbo in a similar manner, Porsche _does_ have a point regarding the erosion of their own brand and perhaps seeing that these actions are an affront and even insulting the Stuttgart company's overall design work/competence 30-some years ago when the 964 was live for them. Clearly Singer's changes to the 964 results in a car that harbors little resemblance in the details and even key elements to the original Type 964 beyond that of the general 911 silhouette. Porsche could in effect argue that this kind of 3rd-party practice is a slap in Porsche's face; to take a generation of 911 and then "reimagine" it into someone else's (who BTW is also NOT a Porsche employee) idea of a _properly perfected 911_ as if almost like saying that the Type 964 never really deserved to be called a 911 in the first place. And THEN have the audacity to make into their for-profit business. Certainly this trend of 'reimagination as a business model' is getting rather ridiculous and even out of hand, because there are others licking their chops(shop) at other generations of 911 Porsches, hoping to replicate the kind of success that Dickinson and team has had with Singer. I mean, even the vaunted and much rarer and valuable Type 959 supercar is not immune from this "restomodding Porsche" trend. Just go over to Bruce Canepa's website and see for yourself. Honestly, if Singer had just made their 964s still _look_ like a 964 after they worked their magic, I suspect that Porsche AG would've been less annoyed by the rest of the mods that were performed. But Singer's revamps effectively chose to erase all vestiges of the Type 964 generation. Yeah...if I were Porsche I'd be more than a little peeved over that. That having been said, I suspect Singer would NOT have been nearly as successful without their decision to backdate the styling of their end product to a more nostalgic iteration of the 911.
Just something else to consider: Porsche has a massive division called Porsche Classic. Singer is literally buying up every 964 coupe possible (c2’s and c4’s, alike), simultaneously driving up the prices of 964’s before theyre “singer-fied.” Porsche’s probably not happy about that, bc once they get “singer-fied,” mechanically, Porsche Classic loses any future business with owners of these older machines. Personally, Singer isn’t my “thing” at all-and I’m the biggest Porsche fan that I know. But just my two cents, here.
@@mariodrv LOL! I can very well imagine that people have your opinion. The thing that sets you apart from decent people is that you then immediately move to insults, with zero provocation.
@@MorningNapalm Is your 3 year old child of an ego so fragile as to cry and resort to insults on the internet just because I called your opinion "dumb"? AHHAHAhahahA xD Edit: You are a disgrace for your chose nickname.
It really has nothing to do with jealousy or how SInger's sound and look. Porsche don't want Singer do be making profit from Porsche's design. Hopefully an agreement is made that allows Singer to continue, even if there are certain restrictions. But I fear for the worse
Lets be honest. If this Singer in anyway didn't have the name "Porsche" in all of it's marketing, it's project would have never gotten off the ground. Singer piggy backed on the Porsche brand big time.
That's how AMG was ruined. Singer, like AMG used to be, are free to experiment and build their own vision which is what makes/made them great. Singer has enough funding.
@@Desert_Spec And Maybach or Brabus?.. Guess you have a crystal ball & a global auto brand as well. AMG is still a company. Benz could sue them to the ground as well. What was your point?
Singer just needs to stand on its own as an independent customer car producer. Remove all Porsche livery. And advertise as a Singer foremost, so as to distinguish itself from the core base manufacturer they are made from. .. As most people can tell what the base car is everyone in the car community knows the quality of a Singer... it doesn't need to hang on Porsches coat tails so to speak.
@@stuartd9741 Both company's obviously have passion for the same thing. No need to fight over it. Enhance it ALL. Germans are a tough crowd to sell ideas to sometimes.. Imagine if Singer had full access to Porsche. The base cars would rise in quality soon after. Singer could produce more cars. Overall prices would be higher per unit, so VW still wins..
Isn't there a limit to how long IP exists? Even the latest 964s are now 30 years old. Porsche no longer produce it so how can they claim dilution of the brand? It would be arguable that the vehicles that Singer produces are more on brand than the SUVs and EVs that Porsche is now producing.
Its about the Logos Emblems and Name. Singer is useing Trade Marked Names and Logos on their Cars and Advertising Ultimatly its about Money. People that buy a Singer are not buying a new or 2nd hand Porsch from the Porsch Dealer Porsche spend Millions and decades building up the Brand. Singer is free looting on the Porsch Brand Name
Porsche has actually trademarked the profile of the 911. It’s even acted as a logo on their letterhead. Trademark owners must protect their intellectual property, otherwise they risk losing it. They could issue a trademark license, for a fee, which is what may actually happen.
me too. I think they were even selling them engines so it gives the impression that they worked close together or at least sanctioned the business somehow. Guess they want to make it clear it was not the case
I believe this came about because of the singer safari in comparison to the Porsche Dakar simply because Singer did it better and that is a threat to Porsche sales of special edition and heritage edition cars which are insanely profitable for Porsche and if people of means start to believe if you want a SE or a HE Porsche it’s better to go to Singer due to their insane attention to detail and building the car around its owner at that super high price point
@@OutlawGarage without a doubt it did because the Dakar is a slightly modified factory Turbo S and the Safari is a purpose built rally super car that can be built to your exact specifications and both carry pretty heavy price tags and are limited and if you are of substantial means and these are your top choices for a purpose built rally inspired 911 most would pick the safari if they are not gonna just get both because they can and if you apply that same scenario to all of Porsche special edition cars and you “Singerize” them like a 930se, 933turbo and turbo s ,3.0 RS ,993 gt2 ,959 these cars but done the Singer way can you imagine the dent it will put in Porsche SE program
It's fairly obvious Porsche would rather have you buy one of their new cars than to get a classic through Singer and not receive any profit. Porsche also knows they have an inferior product. There's nothing an auto manufacturer can do to compete with this, with today's government mandates
This case should have been thrown out. It would be different if Singer was buying cars, modding them, and then selling them off of the lot. If Porsche won/wins this case, then it would be an issue for "every modding shop, everywhere" to put any of their respective logos anywhere on the car, for "any mod" that was performed. How are companies like Brabus and MTM not catcing any fire?
Brabus was the first company that came to mind but they go out of their way to brand their vehicles as Brabus rather than a throwback Mercedes. Being a German company probably also helps. Porsche is likely a bit stung by Singer having become the final statement of early 911 purity.
Alpina is now owned by BMW as a subsidiary brand. Don't know about Brabus though. There's now some kind of official tie-in with Porsche and Manthey Racing.
Porsche probably like singer as do i. But when every body panel interior trim, engine is custom made then you put Porsche on the back you see their point. Theyre taking existing chassis and basically rolling out a completely different new car and calling it Porsche. The fact its tastefully done and popular is irrelevant. If anyone else did something similar all new panels trim engine and put Porsche on it (badly) everyone would side with them.
Interesting. Hopefully Porsche is just doing it to preempt future lawsuits, hopefully they are making a small ask that wont injure Singers viability. Singer builds the most desireable cars in the world right now IMO, alongside Kimera, Alfaholics, Eagle, Guntherwerks and a number of other small restomod shops who have recently stepped up to build some truly brilliant homages to some of the most beautiful cars of all time.
Where's all of Porsch, factory resto mods???? Oh that's right...they don't make any, nor do they want anyone else to have one. Hopefully Porsch looses this one.
I personally think that Rob as a musician should no you can't take someone else's composition ,change the title, tweet the notes and get away without copyright laws.The Porsche DNA in there by design/birth it will always be a Porsche and nothing else.
You buy a car, it's yours. Not the company's. You can do what you wish with your property. Guess Germany and Italy can't let go of how they used to be with the whole controlling whatever they can.
One big factor that is not mentioned is liability. The VW Group was found guilty of criminal acts (official) regarding VW, Audi and Porsche products for emissions fraud. It cost the brand many $$ Billions, and brand damage. So now allowing Singer to modify the cars, tampering with the engines (therefore a clear violation of emissions laws) and maybe also structural modifications (high liability in case of accidents), airbags, brakes. And then also the brand intellectual property rights. I cannot understand why it took so long for Porsche to sue Singer. Car modifications are just not legally possible anymore.
Corporate bullying! They start with used donor Porsche…….it’s not a replica like some Cobra/Ferrari…..it’s a radical restoration…..a traditional in the 911 world. The real reason is that Porsche will need to rely on its Special Wishes department as Volume sales collapse and Porsche becomes a small specialty car company again,like Ferrari…..to survive.
I don’t think they understand just how many new and classic vehicles they sell just due to the workmanship Singer puts out making people who can’t afford a Singer go buy a factory car to be part of the family of enthusiast owners.
Maybe but they are the original and I suspect the impact Singer has on Porsche sales is very minimal, especially when most sales are now SUVs or a Taycan
@RennenUSA I disagree. Singer is tackling an extremely small niche in a specific market. You don't buy a (classic or modern) factory 911, because you cannot afford one of their cars. Porsche created a following over time, with their racing success and icon status off track, owning nothing of that to Singer.
Singer makes cars that a brand stopped making years ago, and they make them in a way different way with bespoke everything. This is stupid. Porsche could make million dollar custom tailored throwback cars, but they do not. People with money would eat them up. So what’s the problem?
I would say that it is a clash of of one Titan and an athletic adolescent. Without Porsche there would be no Singer. What Singer does is really cool. Maybe VAG-Porsche should buy them and make them their custom arm of their brand since there is a market for the over priced expensive toys.
You got to sort out the echo/reverberation in your audio. You’ve got to get a few of those foam deadening tiles. You only need to cover one third of the hard wall faces for it to work.
The issue I've had with the Singer Porsche is that they were buying up all the 5 speed coupes and raising the prices of your average stock 964. However, if I had bought a 964 in 2009 instead of backing out of an Ebay purchase at the last minute, I would probably love that the prices are skyrocketing.
Porsche is the definition of petty. Look at how they reacted when the GT-R Nismo set the 2015 Nurburgring lap time, they cried and labelled them as cheaters (getting the lap time disqualified) because the performance package installed on the GT-R was not available at the showroom and rather as a Nismo works package. However, the Manthey Racing packaged Porsches are allowed when its exactly the same thing. Petty hypocrites.
There was no lawsuit. The Peugeot brothers just went on the Porsche stand at the 1963 Paris Motor Show and had a friendly discussion with Porsche bosses to inform them that that had copyrighted all three number designations with '0' in the middle. After the 356, Porsche's approach was very straightforward because 901 was their new cars project number, and the last thing on their minds would have been the infringement of another car company’s patented naming system. Up to that point Porsche had only used '0' in the middle of their race cars like 904, 906, 908, which was not a problem as these were not road cars. Porsche built a run of pre-series cars before customer cars began to roll off the assembly line on 14th September 1964. By 16th November the factory had made 82 pre-series cars with ‘901’ stamped on their chassis plates. It was no big deal for Porsche to change the '0' in their system to '1', and the rest, as they say is history. The other 150 pre-production cars had 911 on their chassis plates.
@@ghoulbuster1 family porsche and piech are part of our oligarchy...they are huge! and they control lots of people in germany. i wonder how their loyalties lie nowadays... they have a checkered past to say the least...
I’d disagree the only reason we still have 911’s is because of their SUVs. They were on the edge until the Cheyenne. That’s what allowed them to thrive.
The difference between Ferrari and Porsche is, that Porsche has developed a brand and logo that is not just limited to the name and herald logo. It is also the shape of the most recognized model in their lineup that has become their identity. They build that iconic 911 shape with that recognizable DNA for over 60 years without interruption so it became part of their brand identity. Few brand were able to pull this off. With this added trademark design ad shape, it is not up to Singer or any other factory, to take this design and to make it theirs, either by slapping body panels on it or removing them. It is is still a car recognized as a Porsche. No matter that they sell them for 500.000 US. It is still their brand. If Porsche decides in the future to compete in the 500K price range they would find others already benefiting and cannibalizing their brand name. It is time for Singer to come up with their own design and build up their own iconic brand heritage...they will soon find out how difficult it is when you cannot ride the waves that other created. Porsche has a valid point
OK, here's the thing. Singer cars have very distinctive modifications that no factory 911 ever left the factory with. They look quite unique down to the shape of their wheelarches and spoilers. I once had a discussion with BBS about copyright on their famous cross-spoke wheels and they explained that while they could legally go after blatant copy wheels i.e. replicas being passed off as originals, the moment the shape of the spokes was changed slightly and sold under another name, they were no longer copies. The same goes for 'tribute' watches that might look like a Rolex or Patek Philippe but have an own brand on them and other small deviations. So long as no attempt is made to pass them off as the original item there is no case to answer. In fact there was an agreement ebtween Porsche and Singer dating back to the start of their business that Singer should state they have no relationship with Porsche or any of its trademarked products. My question is why now after nearly 15 years? I suspect this is coming from some hot-shot lawyer in PCNA rather than Zuffenhausen.
The issue really gain traction with the singer safari having Porsche written all over it, I think that started the friction, along with some other behind the scenes issues I think
Legally it dilutes Porsches ability to defend anything similar in the future. For example Red Bull fight everything, therefore no one can complain that someone else got away with it, so why can’t they. Everyone is treated the same. I also think there may be a few other things going on behind the scenes…
Porsche is off base on this. Number one the 964 is over 17 years old so no patents would still be in effect. Singer is modifying old cars and seeing them is sour grapes, a real dick move Iyam
Filing a motion under seal has nothing to do with how the case will resolve. I didn't get much of a glimpse of that filing but typically you ask the court to seal the filing if sensitive information is included in support of the requested relief. It could be sensitive or confidential business information, trade secrets or other matters you don't want public but which you feel supports the relief you want from the court.
Porsche went thru this in the 70s and 80s with Ruf, TechArt, Gemballa. Ruf aren't the only ones who can issue their own VIN, so too can the other aforementioned tuners. Porsche have been OK with their existence ever since because culpability and liability is now fully out of their hands. Which is what they want with Singer et al. At least, that's my interpretation.
This is sad. At the end of the day, it's still a Porsche. Porsche sold that car to someone, and they chose to modify it. It's still a Porsche regardless of what you call it. RUF, Sharkwerks, and many others are probably watching this very closely. At what point does modifying your car become dilution of the brand? Maybe they should build better cars, or offer the modifications themselves? No doubt it boils down to money. Someone needs to get paid.
They should learn a thing of two from MS Tools on reimagining Ford Escorts. MST even neither using the word 'Ford' or 'Escort' for their Mk1 and Mk2 cars that they produced.
I’m going to guess that the entire case is centered on the fact that singer puts their badge on their finished cars, and that’s what has Porsche butt hurt. Singer does a great job of acknowledging, and overstating the fact that these cars were Porsches, are Porsches, and will always be Porsches. However: the Singer name has become synonymous with a level of design, and quality that the cars are more readily associated with. And that’s what has raised Porsche‘s hackles. People are paying more for the Singer name on these cars than they are paying for the Porsche name on these cars…
Perfect sensible comment, its the Singer Brand that's the issue.Gas Monkeys restores/modifies a Plymouth Cuda and its street credibilty is what you and i see as a beautiful Mopar and not a rebadged Gas Monkey Cuda, that's left to its owner at Cars and Coffee discussion.Singer is promoting and advertising the Singer Brand over and above the Porsche origin VIN, engine and chassis number its is by visual a Porsche irrespective of the resto/mods done to it.
This is an idiotic move by Porsche. Apparently, they want to be seen as petty, sue-happy children instead of mature icons of the industry. Noted, Porsche. I now see you as petulant children. You've turned me off to your brand.
When you register a singer does it have a Porsche chassis number? If you send same chassis number to Porsche for authenticity do they send a report back saying it is / was made originally as a 964
Jaguar Land Rover have lost several cases similar to this, it will be interesting to follow this case. My guess is that Singer cars will not have Porsche badges in the future.
So, Singers will leave Singer HQ without Porsche branding but the owner can then apply that same branding once delivered? Is that where we’re at or will Porsche then chase the owner🤷🏻♂️
Porsche new cars are not beautiful as the old ones. Perhaps the Singers car inspire people to buy old ones instead of new one? Porsche don't make much from their old cars.
Hey man great videos! Just a small suggestion… a good mic should make the audio quality better and should increase the value/quality of ur videos even more. Keep it up 🔥
Thanks I think I need to use some sound deadening in the room and I also need to do some audio processing to clean up the sound a little bit. Thanks for the feedback though as it’s definitely something I want to work on. Need to do some investigating 👍👍
The issue I have is for every new Singer delivered, a 964 chassis is destroyed. I was hoping they would go the way of RUF and just start making their own shells, but then Porsche would really have a case against them for infringing on intellectual property. Which is a conundrum.
Destroyed is a strong word, especially for this case. It's still a 964, just enhanced. Not a different car, not an EV like what some other companies are turning them into. And no, if you purchase something, you can do whatever you want with it. Because it's your property
Seeing how Porsche keeps pressing their prices higher and higher, year over year, one can only imagine how jealous they must be to see the bounties Singer are hauling in for their restorations. Now, mind you, there's nothing stopping Porsche from offering the same services in-house, or even buying Singer out-right. But, no, let's just go to court and look like bullies. Yes, that's the best course of action. Of course!
I am surprised Porsche don’t offer this option, however, the corporate overheads with Porsche would be massive and could they do it as well as Singer? It’s hard enough getting a GT3 from Porsche, imagine trying to get the equivalent of a Singer 🤦♂️
"Is it a Porsche? Is it a Singer? Is it both?" In my eyes, it's still a Porsche. Singer just added a bit of the modern charm whilst still keeping it Porsche, thus the name of Porsche 911 *reimagined by Singer* It's not a Singer like how RUF back then did their Porsche mods, RUF was initially a Porsche modder company like Mercedes' AMG. But unlike RUF which sometimes made the car look different (CTR-3), Singer just did minor visual touches. So like you said, it's still a Porsche at heart with just a few details sprinkled on.
Trademarks can lose their protections if you as the owner don't enforce them. With Porsche restomods popping up all over the place, they had to make a stand.
@@regulus6936 Wrong. I work in UPS corp. Our shield, the color Pullman Brown, and our package cars are all trademarked. Any business that use any of those things without UPS permission will get a cease and desist letter from our lawyers. We even destroy our old package cars to keep them from being repainted and used for other businesses as we would lose the trademark to the design. The 911 is an iconic design in the same manner.
Not true. Singer's customers go to them for their unique, artistic restorations. Singer doesn't go looking for anyone. That's the crux of the matter. Porsche goes looking for customers, while enthusiasts go looking for Singer to get what they can't from Porsche. Big difference.
I would come down on the side of Porsche here, When Singer were producing a handful of cars their argument held water but they are now effectively operating as a small car manufacturer and as such their cars may start to reduce sales of the very top end Porsche produced 911 variants.
So what about Gunther Werks and RWB / RAUH-Welt BEGRIFF? Thanks to singer it made me start to appreciate th ebrand and how they can change little things that have a big impact as time changes... i was never a fan of porche but singer opened my eyes on the Porsche brand.
RWB is just a body kit. Interesting here in Melbourne the dealers are very happy to service and maintain RWB cars and the Porsche Club here welcomes them with open arms. Guntherwerks is interesting and I’ll investigate that further 👍
What about Ruf? In Germany they have been registered as a manufacturer according to the rules. But with a few exceptions, their models are very similar to the different 911s on which they are based. BMW has brought Alpina in house now, but even when they were separate, they would supply partially assembled cars for them to modify. In fact through BMW RSA, BMW sold models that were based on Aplina's including the 3 series with the larger 2.8 engine, the 745 turbo and the legendary 2.5 six upgrades based on the Aplina 2.7. I think you are right about badging of Singers with PORSCHE decals on them. I am sure the pool of their clients will back them to a negotiated compromise. It probably did not help when Singer moved their manufacturing to UK. A bit too close to home.
Singer have definitely been to close to home for Porsche, especially with the Dakar coming out. RUF have had a long running arrangement with Porsche, even buying chassis direct at one stage. ZERO Porsche badging on a RUF as well, none.
Yeah Singer crossed the line. They were incorporating the Porsche name and Porsche mystique into their products. You can't do that. It forces Porsche to step in and stop Singer from capitalizing on their heritage and brand equity. Singer pushed their luck too far. Time for them to retool their business model.
As a long-time Porsche owner (5 cars over 30 years) and Singer enthusiast from a distance, I’ve got to say that the legal action taken by Porsche in this case looks incredibly petty and stupid…
@Porscheoscar. That’s my point. Ruf cars have no Porsche decals because they buy blank chassis from Porsche, with no VIN. Ruf is considered a manufacturer, so it gets its own VIN during the certification process. Since Singer is producing the DLS bodies themselves, the car body has no Porsche logos to begin with. Singer builds the DLS essentially from scratch, with a bespoke body, on a customer supplied chassis. The issue is that the body is styled to closely resemble an early 911. Even the carbon fiber dashboard is designed to resemble the period 911 dashboard. Singer is mimicking the original design, and then installing Porsche crests and logos after the fact, which implies that it is a Porsche product. They even use Porsche style font on the labels on the fuel and oil caps. Since the car still has a 964 chassis, the DOT will let it retain the original VIN, but from Porsche’s standpoint, it’s not their product anymore. The DLS is essentially a really expensive and convincing replica, badged as an official Porsche. I’m sure paying Porsche for licensing would settle things, but Singer didn’t do that. Nor do they have the Supplier and Customer relationship Ruf has in sourcing the chassis from Porsche.
Diluting the brand? Sounds like Porsche is upset they didn't come up with singer's business model so they can make people buy three Tycans so they can get a "chance" to buy one at "retail".
I saw 964’s get away from my price range due to Singer. Singer has helped to solidify Porsche 911’s an an investment. New and old. They should be thanking Singer for increasing interest in the brand.
RWB doesn’t get messed with is because he never removes the Crest on the front and moniker on the rear when it has one. Akira changes the width but not the shell
3:30 Being sealed doesn’t necessarily indicate an out of court settlement. When dealing with IP, it is reasonable from both sides to not want their trade secrets to be made available to other competitors.
I suspect that Porsche didn't have any issues with the re-imagining business of repurposing 964s, but when Singer starts releasing their own 911-esque models, it isn't the same any longer.
@@Illtechnica Not sure what you are referring to. Porsche clearly doesn't want all classic 964s converted to retromods, and they already make new 911 models all the time...
@@MorningNapalm I'm referring to the notion Porsche would have rather had those levels of bespoke, niche enterprises within the Porsche portfolio long ago... if they first thought it was viable. Perhaps not to the full extent Singer has gone to, but a step beyond their concourse-level restoration platform in the USA and DE. I understand Porsche was familiar with Singer close to its inception and set parameters for the use of its IP. And they provide Singer engines from their Motorsports division. I don't think they didn't want the 964s or other 911s converted, they wanted it done a certain way. Ergo, the spat about the DLS/ACS projects. So they were protecting their heritage and *financials.* If this was all under their corporate umbrella, this wouldn't be a concern. It seems their just trying to get the word out to Singer or anyone else at this point they will engage in a protracted legal battle if you test their IP limits.
@@Illtechnica I also think that Porsche just wants to send a heads-up: don't use our IP outside of agreed areas, and the new, 100% Singer cars definitely have nothing to do with Porsche. I do not think that Porsche is happy about all the 964s being sucked up and converted to hyper-expensive rich boy toys, but I have no proof. I think Porsche likes their classic scene as it is. I own a '99 911, and the mail I get from them very much gives me the feeling that they like their history as it is, and keeping older vehicles on the road. If the occasional older car gets tarted up, it doesn't change much, but if a specific model gets systematically sucked up and spat out at 10x the price, it is something different. I do not think that Porsche wants to get into the very-expensive-custom-car market. They have the custom shop where you can specify your own paint, seats, and so on, and that is the limit of what they want to deal with.
Wow, that's crazy this video popped up for me today. I actually just got into the deep world of Trademark Law research. People don't realize how important this stuff is. I didn't. I learned that brands are actually responsible for protecting their trademarks because it could cause them to lose important cases in the future which is why many major companies are seen suing for seemingly frivolous use of their brands. Side note, for other youtubers out there. O, Fortuna is not public domain even though it sounds like a very old song. Haha. Used it on my last video and RUclips identified it. Crazy!
Completely understandable. Someone with basic car knowledge would immediately call assume a Singer is a "normal" porsche. Something from RWB or anywhere else looks clearly modified.
Because RUF is a car company. Not a tuner. RUF takes naked Porsche bodies without a vin number and engines and builds their cars with RUF vin numbers. Technically, they're not Porsche's
Well, what might be a problem, that Singer went from restoring/modifying Porsches to basically taking everything off and build new cars which look like Porsches and are even Porsche badged. So that could open up doors for manufacturers building new cars copying the 911 design.
So, why hasn't Porsche gone after Emory and their "outlaws"? Emory has essentially been doing the same thing for 25 years. BTW, I own a number of Porsches and love the company, but I fully support what Emory and Singer and others are doing. Porsche needs to settle this stupid suit for $1, and then let everyone go about their business.
that's the equivalent of writting a love letter and the girl reporting you for harrasment 😂
That's not too farfetched these days
@@Jay-jb2vr Yep
This sounds very 2024.
Girl: "Pay attention to meee! 🥺🥺😍"
Guy: *writes love letter*
Girl: "I'm calling the police and suing you."
I love Singers, but have you ever received a love letter or romantic interest from someone you're not interested in and won't take the hint?
It's not out of the picture
This is just legal CYA from Porsche. If you don't defend IP you lose the right to it. My suspicion is that Porsche is happy to have Singer do their thing, but needs a case and settlement on file in order to protect its IP from other parties.
That's overly optimistic, and a lawsuit isn't the appropriate approach for that. If that was Porsche's intent, they could have sold a license to Singer for $1. This way, they can defend their IP in the future by arguing that Singer asked and paid for permission. Porsche is just jealous of the mountain of money Singer makes "off their back" year over year.
@@MisterMonsieur yeah you may be right, just seems odd to take issue with them after 15 years, though maybe the ACS was a step too far.
@@wwatts I think the ACS was a step too far; which is to say that they did "too good" a job. It's so good, it's hard to believe it's not OEM.
Great thoughts, the ACS seems to be the tipping point for Porsche
@@MisterMonsieur :-):-)
Singer are not diluting the brand they are promoting it. Porsche should be doing the same thing with the original cars.
I concur! Another division but still Porsche. They never listen to their customers/ audience. Remember PDK VS 6 Speed Manual.
Why would Porsche ruin their classic cars by restomoding them and destroying the marque’s history? And they did listen and put the manual back in the GT3.
Porsche have listened, somewhat. Adding the manual option back, which did upset a lot of 911 R owners. Singer are not Porsche though and I think the Singer impact on corporate Porsche may be overrated. I think it comes down to the badging and the naming, that’s where the fight is I believe
Its diluting because porsche cannot sell anymore analog cars in that volume. So it has to sell a new ideology that is not the same as the traditional porsche of even 20 years ago.
Here's the thing.
When these cars were built and sold by Porsche they used the best technology & R&D that Porsche was prepared to spend on any given model.
So a 70s Porsche would have 70s technology and so on.
If people want to modify from that base fair enough.
..
Porsche would have made a driver's car that would appeal to the widest customer base as possible with the existing technology of that time be it 70,80,90,00s.
There will always be room for improvement.
..
Yet this costs money & i guess Porsche would prefer to make a profit on each car sold.
So in other words. The amount of R&D that goes into a Singer would be far too expensive for mass production by Porsche..unless you want $1M price tag.
..
It is alleged that every Buggati Veyron sold VW lost money on due to the complexity of the car.
If Porsche are worried about brand dilution look no further than them becoming EVs. They should take the EU to court.
Yep. When it comes to EV's there no character to distinguish one from another. Part of the appeal of Porsche is the powertrain and the magic they work on them and the gearboxes. When everything is a fast, well handling EV built on a low center of gravity sled of batteries, why the hell would I spend a premium to the get the Porsche version? It would be like buying a Porsche vacuum cleaner...like why? I don't think manufacturers are properly factoring this in. If we're going to build and market them like appliances the people are going to start buying them like they do appliances. Something cheap, fancy looking, and has a good warranty.
No soul and often the cars become very plasticy, if that’s even word 🤣 Hopefully Porsche have success with their new fuel 👍
It is THEIR brand. They can dilute their own property as much as they want.
How comes Singer take the rap from Porsche when Bimoto and Electrogenic make Porsche 911 electric cars or is it the fact that these are conversions .
Bimoto make the most amazing cars especially the 935 race car replica electric . However .😊
Also what about RUF , Guntherworks , Brabus etc ?
Ruf has been modifying and improving Porsches for 4 decades. The only difference between Singer and Ruf is Ruf registered themselves as an auto manufacturer in Germany at their outset. They get bodies in white and engines from Porsche and go crazy from there.
This might give Ruf the unassailable position of being a manufacturer while singer is legally an infringer.
They both do the same thing but have different legal status.
A bit different I think. Ruf sells you a Ruf. Singer requires you to BYO 964 which they then turn inside out.
Thats a really good point @pervertt
You are not buying a Singer, you are buying a Porsche 911/964 Singer which I think is the challenge
@@pervertt I don't think that's 100% correct. I remember during his early interviews, Rob was saying that one could bring his 964 for the "reimagining"... but they were also searching&buying 964s for themselves, too!!!
In the beginning RUF got Porsche bodies in white ,that is no longer the case Ruf builds its own bodies and uses Porsche supplied engine casings and all the engines are now built in-house by RUF.
@@ChrisSaddlerSam I stand corrected if that is the case. Whatever Singer does, I understand there is not much of the original car that is kept in the final product.
Dilution of the brand?! Porsche already did that when they started building suvs
SUVs pay the bills
SUVs have definitely helped the sustainability of the brand, exactly why even Ferrari are doing it, even though it’s a significantly different price bracket
Unfortunately 911’s do pay the bills on their own
That's just your opinion, sales figures would indicate otherwise.
100% exactly and the chauffer driven supercar originally meant for Communist market or else no entry for VW group
Like RUF, Singer just needs to take the Porsche logos off their car and call them Singers, with a Singer badge. Solved.
Correct, I think that would solve the problem
@@OutlawGarage Haha! Perhaps I need to collect a fee from Singer? Maybe a car? 😄
Somehow I think this might anger Porsche more!!
Except it’s still a registered Porsche automobile, there in lies the problem…RUF puts their own VIN and registration on them….Singer can’t do that with classic models
Not really. Remember when you could buy a Rolls Royce hood for a VW Beetle. That came to an end quickly.
The Macan has done more damage to the Porsche brand than Singer ever has...
Did you see the Panamera. I had the V8 with the optional bore scoring 🤦♂️
I would say the Cayenne because without the Cayenne there wouldn’t be a Macan or Panamera. Also the Macan and Panamera are still produced in Germany while the Cayenne is made in Slovakia
@@gockelxxxxxl9584 The SUVs saved the company but have done huge damage to the brand. IMO.
@@OutlawGarage My condolences :/
Porsche shoud have sat back smiling easily and said "Yes, Singer 911's are awesome...we know".
Singer makes Porsche's better name better, not worse.
@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus yes, you’re right. On one hand they saved Porsche as it is but on the other they aren’t what many see as Porsche (including myself). What I like most about Porsche 4 door cars is that they finance the development of small series cars like the Carrera GT or 918
So... years ago, PORSCHE took legal action against SINGER saying that the company could not create a product that would confuse the market into believing it was a SINGER product, and not a "PORSCHE 911". SINGER and PORSCHE arrived at an agreement whereby any marketing of the SINGER product must be described as a "PORSCHE 911 reimagined by SINGER Vehicle Design". At the same time, the SINGER badging on the car was reduced in size/prominence.
So... for PORSCHE to now raise a legal case saying SINGER can't have prominent PORSCHE badging on the finished product makes no sense. I think the commentator here is just playing guesswork, and that we need to wait for real details.
Porsche is mad they didn't think of developing a program like this before Singer did. They didn't think, 13 years ago, there was a market for bespoke, retro-designed 911's starting at £350k (now £750k). Boy, were they wrong.
Too expensive for mass production.. from Porsches point of view..
they make one car and sell it for a like 30 trims and different specs 😂
found a real life cheatcode selling their cars starting at 200k
Yep, it's ruining their trying to turn folks to their EVs. Singer forces folks to remember that an expensive street Porsche is supposed to be about driving emotion not ultimate lap times.
@@anydaynow01 Singer cars are significantly more expensive than any car Porsche sells today and are a drop in the sea compared to the numbers they're dealing with. Singer is a boutique coach builder for few rich individuals who want a new car that is definitely a Porsche, but not the kind Porsche could produce today because of regulations. The two markets are completely apart from each other.
1000 wealthy buyers isnt going to make up much of a market
RUF aren’t allowed to stick Porsche badges and names on their cars. Porsche are entitled to defend their brand. They already got the brand removed from the All-terrain competition study.
RUF and Singer do different things. RUF is registered as a manufacturer, and sell whole cars, with different model names, outside of Porsche nomenclature. Singer does not.
@@colnagog6026that’s why Singer is going to court.
@@colnagog6026 It's only because of how US laws are structured and written regarding who is an automaker and who is not, that Singer doesn't have to bring their end products up to current standards and laws. You have the original VIN and maybe keep certain key bits of the donor, you still have a "30+ year old car" after the mods are all said and done. That's a huge loophole when looking at how just little of the original 964 Singer actually uses in their final build.
In considering how extensively Singer modifies the 964 and is now intending on doing the G-series 911 Turbo in a similar manner, Porsche _does_ have a point regarding the erosion of their own brand and perhaps seeing that these actions are an affront and even insulting the Stuttgart company's overall design work/competence 30-some years ago when the 964 was live for them. Clearly Singer's changes to the 964 results in a car that harbors little resemblance in the details and even key elements to the original Type 964 beyond that of the general 911 silhouette.
Porsche could in effect argue that this kind of 3rd-party practice is a slap in Porsche's face; to take a generation of 911 and then "reimagine" it into someone else's (who BTW is also NOT a Porsche employee) idea of a _properly perfected 911_ as if almost like saying that the Type 964 never really deserved to be called a 911 in the first place. And THEN have the audacity to make into their for-profit business. Certainly this trend of 'reimagination as a business model' is getting rather ridiculous and even out of hand, because there are others licking their chops(shop) at other generations of 911 Porsches, hoping to replicate the kind of success that Dickinson and team has had with Singer. I mean, even the vaunted and much rarer and valuable Type 959 supercar is not immune from this "restomodding Porsche" trend. Just go over to Bruce Canepa's website and see for yourself.
Honestly, if Singer had just made their 964s still _look_ like a 964 after they worked their magic, I suspect that Porsche AG would've been less annoyed by the rest of the mods that were performed. But Singer's revamps effectively chose to erase all vestiges of the Type 964 generation. Yeah...if I were Porsche I'd be more than a little peeved over that. That having been said, I suspect Singer would NOT have been nearly as successful without their decision to backdate the styling of their end product to a more nostalgic iteration of the 911.
Just something else to consider: Porsche has a massive division called Porsche Classic. Singer is literally buying up every 964 coupe possible (c2’s and c4’s, alike), simultaneously driving up the prices of 964’s before theyre “singer-fied.” Porsche’s probably not happy about that, bc once they get “singer-fied,” mechanically, Porsche Classic loses any future business with owners of these older machines. Personally, Singer isn’t my “thing” at all-and I’m the biggest Porsche fan that I know. But just my two cents, here.
You don't like making a great car even better, modernizing it elegantly? That's just dumb right here.
@@mariodrv Typical drivel from someone who cannot imagine people with different opinions being equally right.
@@MorningNapalm
Typical drivel from someone who can not imagine people who cannot imagine different opinions being equalky right.
@@mariodrv LOL! I can very well imagine that people have your opinion. The thing that sets you apart from decent people is that you then immediately move to insults, with zero provocation.
@@MorningNapalm
Is your 3 year old child of an ego so fragile as to cry and resort to insults on the internet just because I called your opinion "dumb"? AHHAHAhahahA xD
Edit: You are a disgrace for your chose nickname.
They should distance themself more clearly as a modifier company. They do surf A LOT on the Porsche brand and name
I agree, their safari was branded with Porsche all over it, when it clearly wasn’t
@@OutlawGarage Unless it no longer has a Porsche VIN, it's still a Porsche.
Exactly, their cars are much better built than the Porsche ones, so they dederve their own name
@@Jallu555 ofcourse they are ? They cost 10x of a porsche? It better be better build than anything?
singer is easily the nicest sounding classic 911 ever. porsche is just jealous, they were the same with RUF
Your logic is tremendous😂
Porsche mad because Singer is out Sonderweunching (
@@colnagog6026Stop raping my native language!
It really has nothing to do with jealousy or how SInger's sound and look. Porsche don't want Singer do be making profit from Porsche's design. Hopefully an agreement is made that allows Singer to continue, even if there are certain restrictions. But I fear for the worse
So how about Gunther Werks? The next one to be sued?
Maybe, that’s definitely an interesting situation that might need more investigation 👍
They should sue RWB..... That stuff is ghetto Hypebeast crap...... So ugly .........
Gunther werks does work closely with Porsche but might have the issue with there carbon 911s
Gunther Werks is like RUF they have approval from porsche.
@@alphaenterprise2232 Ruf is an manufacturer, does it really need Porsche approval?
Lets be honest. If this Singer in anyway didn't have the name "Porsche" in all of it's marketing, it's project would have never gotten off the ground. Singer piggy backed on the Porsche brand big time.
Porsche needs to bring Singer in-house, similar to MB does with Maybach, AMG, or even Brabus. They look childish fighting over the same girl!
That’s an interesting way of putting it 🤣
That's how AMG was ruined. Singer, like AMG used to be, are free to experiment and build their own vision which is what makes/made them great. Singer has enough funding.
@@Desert_Spec And Maybach or Brabus?.. Guess you have a crystal ball & a global auto brand as well. AMG is still a company. Benz could sue them to the ground as well. What was your point?
Singer just needs to stand on its own as an independent customer car producer.
Remove all Porsche livery. And advertise as a Singer foremost, so as to distinguish itself from the core base manufacturer they are made from.
..
As most people can tell what the base car is everyone in the car community knows the quality of a Singer... it doesn't need to hang on Porsches coat tails so to speak.
@@stuartd9741 Both company's obviously have passion for the same thing. No need to fight over it. Enhance it ALL. Germans are a tough crowd to sell ideas to sometimes.. Imagine if Singer had full access to Porsche. The base cars would rise in quality soon after. Singer could produce more cars. Overall prices would be higher per unit, so VW still wins..
Isn't there a limit to how long IP exists? Even the latest 964s are now 30 years old. Porsche no longer produce it so how can they claim dilution of the brand? It would be arguable that the vehicles that Singer produces are more on brand than the SUVs and EVs that Porsche is now producing.
Its about the Logos Emblems and Name.
Singer is useing Trade Marked Names and Logos on their Cars and Advertising
Ultimatly its about Money.
People that buy a Singer are not buying a new or 2nd hand Porsch from the Porsch Dealer
Porsche spend Millions and decades building up the Brand. Singer is free looting on the Porsch Brand Name
Porsche has actually trademarked the profile of the 911. It’s even acted as a logo on their letterhead.
Trademark owners must protect their intellectual property, otherwise they risk losing it.
They could issue a trademark license, for a fee, which is what may actually happen.
💯 right, that could be an option
Probably to do more with removing Porsche badges and replacing them with Singer badges. Same situation with the Purrari.
💯
What's next? Forcing me to pull the badges off the cars I restore at home?
Even if they remove the badges Porche will still complain and want to do it themselves inhouse..
I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.
Yep, it’s been years, perhaps with the ever increasing Porsche Heritage department they’ve decided to make a stand
Same here.
Agree.
me too. I think they were even selling them engines so it gives the impression that they worked close together or at least sanctioned the business somehow. Guess they want to make it clear it was not the case
Greed. Love Porsche, but hopefully they (Porsche) lose.
I believe this came about because of the singer safari in comparison to the Porsche Dakar simply because Singer did it better and that is a threat to Porsche sales of special edition and heritage edition cars which are insanely profitable for Porsche and if people of means start to believe if you want a SE or a HE Porsche it’s better to go to Singer due to their insane attention to detail and building the car around its owner at that super high price point
Yes the Safari definitely accelerated the breakdown in the relationship
@@OutlawGarage without a doubt it did because the Dakar is a slightly modified factory Turbo S and the Safari is a purpose built rally super car that can be built to your exact specifications and both carry pretty heavy price tags and are limited and if you are of substantial means and these are your top choices for a purpose built rally inspired 911 most would pick the safari if they are not gonna just get both because they can and if you apply that same scenario to all of Porsche special edition cars and you “Singerize” them like a 930se, 933turbo and turbo s ,3.0 RS ,993 gt2 ,959 these cars but done the Singer way can you imagine the dent it will put in Porsche SE program
What happens when Porsche (World Wide) and Singer meet in court? Porsche win. Thanks for turning up, tea and coffee's on your way out. Take care now.
I think this is now settled, update coming soon 👍
It's fairly obvious Porsche would rather have you buy one of their new cars than to get a classic through Singer and not receive any profit. Porsche also knows they have an inferior product. There's nothing an auto manufacturer can do to compete with this, with today's government mandates
Government mandates can be crippling. Manufacturers can’t really complete with bespoke companies with their massive overheads
This case should have been thrown out. It would be different if Singer was buying cars, modding them, and then selling them off of the lot. If Porsche won/wins this case, then it would be an issue for "every modding shop, everywhere" to put any of their respective logos anywhere on the car, for "any mod" that was performed. How are companies like Brabus and MTM not catcing any fire?
I was just going to mention brabus.
Nowhere on a Brabus does the name Mercedes appear. They don’t bill their cars as Mercs.
I believe companies like brabus and alpina work directly with mercedes and bmw
Brabus was the first company that came to mind but they go out of their way to brand their vehicles as Brabus rather than a throwback Mercedes. Being a German company probably also helps. Porsche is likely a bit stung by Singer having become the final statement of early 911 purity.
Alpina is now owned by BMW as a subsidiary brand. Don't know about Brabus though. There's now some kind of official tie-in with Porsche and Manthey Racing.
Porsche probably like singer as do i. But when every body panel interior trim, engine is custom made then you put Porsche on the back you see their point. Theyre taking existing chassis and basically rolling out a completely different new car and calling it Porsche. The fact its tastefully done and popular is irrelevant. If anyone else did something similar all new panels trim engine and put Porsche on it (badly) everyone would side with them.
I agree, they should just put Singer on instead of
Interesting. Hopefully Porsche is just doing it to preempt future lawsuits, hopefully they are making a small ask that wont injure Singers viability. Singer builds the most desireable cars in the world right now IMO, alongside Kimera, Alfaholics, Eagle, Guntherwerks and a number of other small restomod shops who have recently stepped up to build some truly brilliant homages to some of the most beautiful cars of all time.
I hope so as well. It could be really simple, hopefully resolved quickly 🤞
Where's all of Porsch, factory resto mods???? Oh that's right...they don't make any, nor do they want anyone else to have one. Hopefully Porsch looses this one.
HUH? The argument should be I paid for it and can do whatever I want to customize a car. Plus these are very old cars. These are restomods.
porsche should partner with them.....its idiotic to sue them.
The level of quality and the price are so different from Porsche I call them Singers because they're nothing alike.
I personally think that Rob as a musician should no you can't take someone else's composition ,change the title, tweet the notes and get away without copyright laws.The Porsche DNA in there by design/birth it will always be a Porsche and nothing else.
@@randallbezuidenhout1505 I can see your point, but he puts in way more work then Porsche did on any of their cars.
It would be a tragedy if Singer stopped working on Porsches based on these baseless claims. They are nothing like current Porsches.
I don’t think it will come to that, but there will need to be changes, hopefully only small
You buy a car, it's yours. Not the company's. You can do what you wish with your property. Guess Germany and Italy can't let go of how they used to be with the whole controlling whatever they can.
Amen
yes, but actually no
touche
One big factor that is not mentioned is liability. The VW Group was found guilty of criminal acts (official) regarding VW, Audi and Porsche products for emissions fraud. It cost the brand many $$ Billions, and brand damage. So now allowing Singer to modify the cars, tampering with the engines (therefore a clear violation of emissions laws) and maybe also structural modifications (high liability in case of accidents), airbags, brakes. And then also the brand intellectual property rights.
I cannot understand why it took so long for Porsche to sue Singer.
Car modifications are just not legally possible anymore.
I'm guessing some ego's at Porsche are hurt because Singer builds some damn beautiful cars.
I definitely think some egos have been hurt both sides on this
Corporate bullying!
They start with used donor Porsche…….it’s not a replica like some Cobra/Ferrari…..it’s a radical restoration…..a traditional in the 911 world.
The real reason is that Porsche will need to rely on its Special Wishes department as Volume sales collapse and Porsche becomes a small specialty car company again,like Ferrari…..to survive.
I think we’ll see the prices of a standard 911 rise, they’ll be as hard to get into as a Ferrari at some point.
I don’t think they understand just how many new and classic vehicles they sell just due to the workmanship Singer puts out making people who can’t afford a Singer go buy a factory car to be part of the family of enthusiast owners.
Maybe but they are the original and I suspect the impact Singer has on Porsche sales is very minimal, especially when most sales are now SUVs or a Taycan
@RennenUSA I disagree. Singer is tackling an extremely small niche in a specific market. You don't buy a (classic or modern) factory 911, because you cannot afford one of their cars. Porsche created a following over time, with their racing success and icon status off track, owning nothing of that to Singer.
Singer makes cars that a brand stopped making years ago, and they make them in a way different way with bespoke everything. This is stupid. Porsche could make million dollar custom tailored throwback cars, but they do not. People with money would eat them up. So what’s the problem?
Not only did the 911 swell up in size after Volkswagen (VAG) took ownership, looks like Porsche's law department grew a bit large as well.
all cars swell up... sadly
I would say that it is a clash of of one Titan and an athletic adolescent. Without Porsche there would be no Singer. What Singer does is really cool. Maybe VAG-Porsche should buy them and make them their custom arm of their brand since there is a market for the over priced expensive toys.
You got to sort out the echo/reverberation in your audio. You’ve got to get a few of those foam deadening tiles. You only need to cover one third of the hard wall faces for it to work.
I thought the mic positioning might of helped. Might try a new filter 👍👍
Just get out of recording this video in the bathroom 😂
Obviously a small room with hard walls / floor / ceiling.
Or just invest in a quality directional mic
The issue I've had with the Singer Porsche is that they were buying up all the 5 speed coupes and raising the prices of your average stock 964. However, if I had bought a 964 in 2009 instead of backing out of an Ebay purchase at the last minute, I would probably love that the prices are skyrocketing.
Very true 🤣
This is pettier than the 901 lawsuit by Peugeot.
Porsche is the definition of petty. Look at how they reacted when the GT-R Nismo set the 2015 Nurburgring lap time, they cried and labelled them as cheaters (getting the lap time disqualified) because the performance package installed on the GT-R was not available at the showroom and rather as a Nismo works package. However, the Manthey Racing packaged Porsches are allowed when its exactly the same thing. Petty hypocrites.
porsche is lost just as the rest of german industry. too much empty but loudmouthed heads over there. and hubris, ooodles of hubris, for decades...
There was no lawsuit. The Peugeot brothers just went on the Porsche stand at the 1963 Paris Motor Show and had a friendly discussion with Porsche bosses to inform them that that had copyrighted all three number designations with '0' in the middle. After the 356, Porsche's approach was very straightforward because 901 was their new cars project number, and the last thing on their minds would have been the infringement of another car company’s patented naming system. Up to that point Porsche had only used '0' in the middle of their race cars like 904, 906, 908, which was not a problem as these were not road cars.
Porsche built a run of pre-series cars before customer cars began to roll off the assembly line on 14th September 1964. By 16th November the factory had made 82 pre-series cars with ‘901’ stamped on their chassis plates. It was no big deal for Porsche to change the '0' in their system to '1', and the rest, as they say is history. The other 150 pre-production cars had 911 on their chassis plates.
@@simonschneider5913these companies aren't german.
They are "international"
@@ghoulbuster1 family porsche and piech are part of our oligarchy...they are huge! and they control lots of people in germany. i wonder how their loyalties lie nowadays... they have a checkered past to say the least...
The only thing diluting the brand is Suv’s…. And Porsche did that.
I’d disagree the only reason we still have 911’s is because of their SUVs. They were on the edge until the Cheyenne. That’s what allowed them to thrive.
There’s been a few cars that have saved Porsche over the years, the SUV’s have done that.
The difference between Ferrari and Porsche is, that Porsche has developed a brand and logo that is not just limited to the name and herald logo. It is also the shape of the most recognized model in their lineup that has become their identity. They build that iconic 911 shape with that recognizable DNA for over 60 years without interruption so it became part of their brand identity. Few brand were able to pull this off. With this added trademark design ad shape, it is not up to Singer or any other factory, to take this design and to make it theirs, either by slapping body panels on it or removing them. It is is still a car recognized as a Porsche. No matter that they sell them for 500.000 US. It is still their brand. If Porsche decides in the future to compete in the 500K price range they would find others already benefiting and cannibalizing their brand name. It is time for Singer to come up with their own design and build up their own iconic brand heritage...they will soon find out how difficult it is when you cannot ride the waves that other created. Porsche has a valid point
I agree, short term and long term I think Porsche are making a sensible stand, I just hope it doesn't go too far...
that is true many of them customizer think they build the car or at least they present em like that ❤️
OK, here's the thing. Singer cars have very distinctive modifications that no factory 911 ever left the factory with. They look quite unique down to the shape of their wheelarches and spoilers.
I once had a discussion with BBS about copyright on their famous cross-spoke wheels and they explained that while they could legally go after blatant copy wheels i.e. replicas being passed off as originals, the moment the shape of the spokes was changed slightly and sold under another name, they were no longer copies. The same goes for 'tribute' watches that might look like a Rolex or Patek Philippe but have an own brand on them and other small deviations.
So long as no attempt is made to pass them off as the original item there is no case to answer. In fact there was an agreement ebtween Porsche and Singer dating back to the start of their business that Singer should state they have no relationship with Porsche or any of its trademarked products. My question is why now after nearly 15 years? I suspect this is coming from some hot-shot lawyer in PCNA rather than Zuffenhausen.
The issue really gain traction with the singer safari having Porsche written all over it, I think that started the friction, along with some other behind the scenes issues I think
I don’t get how it’s considered diluting the brand if they’re not creating new vehicles. They are just (highly)modifying existing older vehicles
Legally it dilutes Porsches ability to defend anything similar in the future. For example Red Bull fight everything, therefore no one can complain that someone else got away with it, so why can’t they. Everyone is treated the same. I also think there may be a few other things going on behind the scenes…
Its not about the Cars
Its about the Logos and Name on the Cars and in the Singer Advertisment
Porsche is off base on this. Number one the 964 is over 17 years old so no patents would still be in effect. Singer is modifying old cars and seeing them is sour grapes, a real dick move Iyam
Filing a motion under seal has nothing to do with how the case will resolve. I didn't get much of a glimpse of that filing but typically you ask the court to seal the filing if sensitive information is included in support of the requested relief. It could be sensitive or confidential business information, trade secrets or other matters you don't want public but which you feel supports the relief you want from the court.
Good point 👍
Sounds like Porsche is upset that someone else makes a better Porsche than Porsche does.
Porsche went thru this in the 70s and 80s with Ruf, TechArt, Gemballa. Ruf aren't the only ones who can issue their own VIN, so too can the other aforementioned tuners. Porsche have been OK with their existence ever since because culpability and liability is now fully out of their hands. Which is what they want with Singer et al. At least, that's my interpretation.
I completely agree 👍
This is sad. At the end of the day, it's still a Porsche. Porsche sold that car to someone, and they chose to modify it. It's still a Porsche regardless of what you call it. RUF, Sharkwerks, and many others are probably watching this very closely. At what point does modifying your car become dilution of the brand? Maybe they should build better cars, or offer the modifications themselves? No doubt it boils down to money. Someone needs to get paid.
They should learn a thing of two from MS Tools on reimagining Ford Escorts.
MST even neither using the word 'Ford' or 'Escort' for their Mk1 and Mk2 cars that they produced.
Yep, I think they either need to say Porsche 911 restored by Singer or just not mention Porsche at all
Shows you Porsche is just interested in controlling sales.
I’m going to guess that the entire case is centered on the fact that singer puts their badge on their finished cars, and that’s what has Porsche butt hurt. Singer does a great job of acknowledging, and overstating the fact that these cars were Porsches, are Porsches, and will always be Porsches. However: the Singer name has become synonymous with a level of design, and quality that the cars are more readily associated with. And that’s what has raised Porsche‘s hackles. People are paying more for the Singer name on these cars than they are paying for the Porsche name on these cars…
Perfect sensible comment, its the Singer Brand that's the issue.Gas Monkeys restores/modifies a Plymouth Cuda and its street credibilty is what you and i see as a beautiful Mopar and not a rebadged Gas Monkey Cuda, that's left to its owner at Cars and Coffee discussion.Singer is promoting and advertising the Singer Brand over and above the Porsche origin VIN, engine and chassis number its is by visual a Porsche irrespective of the resto/mods done to it.
Great comments 👍
This is an idiotic move by Porsche. Apparently, they want to be seen as petty, sue-happy children instead of mature icons of the industry. Noted, Porsche. I now see you as petulant children. You've turned me off to your brand.
kinda funny that singer sponsors the porsche jota team in wec hypercar
I does seem like they are trying to maintain a relationship whilst setting so rules, unfortunately using the courts
When you register a singer does it have a Porsche chassis number? If you send same chassis number to Porsche for authenticity do they send a report back saying it is / was made originally as a 964
Yes in both cases
I heard all the guys at Porsche who were adamant that an SUV 😂 would dilute the brand have all been sidelined
but please remember the damned suv's kept Porsche afloat, however much we despise the things!
@@drdoolittle5724 I cannot stand those Porsche SUVs, ugly as fuck.
Singer is an American company. This will fall under the constitution I believe.
Oh that’s an interesting thought. I think this may come down to trademark laws and I’m not sure if the constitution covers that??
Guntherworks, Tuthill, 501 Motors, and more I can't remember, should look at, since they do a similar thing to 911s.
Singer hasn't diluted the 911 brand at all....if anything they have increase significantly the cache of owning any Porsche.
Jaguar Land Rover have lost several cases similar to this, it will be interesting to follow this case.
My guess is that Singer cars will not have Porsche badges in the future.
Porsche sounds jealous ...
So, Singers will leave Singer HQ without Porsche branding but the owner can then apply that same branding once delivered? Is that where we’re at or will Porsche then chase the owner🤷🏻♂️
I think that Porsche should buy singer and use them as like Mercedes with amg
This is a warning shot from Porsche to all builders that modify their product. It will set a precedent that we are watching you..
Definitely puts a peg in the ground
This certainly is nothing new in the motor industry.
Porsche new cars are not beautiful as the old ones. Perhaps the Singers car inspire people to buy old ones instead of new one? Porsche don't make much from their old cars.
The new cars are just no comparison to the old aircooled cars imo
Hey man great videos! Just a small suggestion… a good mic should make the audio quality better and should increase the value/quality of ur videos even more. Keep it up 🔥
Thanks
I think I need to use some sound deadening in the room and I also need to do some audio processing to clean up the sound a little bit.
Thanks for the feedback though as it’s definitely something I want to work on. Need to do some investigating 👍👍
Simple solution Singers leave their factory without Porsche emblems. Buyers add them retrospectively.
The issue I have is for every new Singer delivered, a 964 chassis is destroyed. I was hoping they would go the way of RUF and just start making their own shells, but then Porsche would really have a case against them for infringing on intellectual property. Which is a conundrum.
Destroyed is a strong word, especially for this case. It's still a 964, just enhanced. Not a different car, not an EV like what some other companies are turning them into. And no, if you purchase something, you can do whatever you want with it. Because it's your property
Singer only broadens Porsche's mystic!
Seeing how Porsche keeps pressing their prices higher and higher, year over year, one can only imagine how jealous they must be to see the bounties Singer are hauling in for their restorations. Now, mind you, there's nothing stopping Porsche from offering the same services in-house, or even buying Singer out-right. But, no, let's just go to court and look like bullies. Yes, that's the best course of action. Of course!
I am surprised Porsche don’t offer this option, however, the corporate overheads with Porsche would be massive and could they do it as well as Singer? It’s hard enough getting a GT3 from Porsche, imagine trying to get the equivalent of a Singer 🤦♂️
"Is it a Porsche? Is it a Singer? Is it both?"
In my eyes, it's still a Porsche. Singer just added a bit of the modern charm whilst still keeping it Porsche, thus the name of Porsche 911 *reimagined by Singer*
It's not a Singer like how RUF back then did their Porsche mods, RUF was initially a Porsche modder company like Mercedes' AMG. But unlike RUF which sometimes made the car look different (CTR-3), Singer just did minor visual touches. So like you said, it's still a Porsche at heart with just a few details sprinkled on.
Trademarks can lose their protections if you as the owner don't enforce them. With Porsche restomods popping up all over the place, they had to make a stand.
I think you’re 💯 right 👍
@@OutlawGarage RUF is prolly the blueprint these guys will have to follow to stay legal.
@flux928 That's not how it works, if you have no reason to enforce your trademark because nobody is violating anything, it won't lose protection.
@@regulus6936 Wrong. I work in UPS corp. Our shield, the color Pullman Brown, and our package cars are all trademarked. Any business that use any of those things without UPS permission will get a cease and desist letter from our lawyers. We even destroy our old package cars to keep them from being repainted and used for other businesses as we would lose the trademark to the design. The 911 is an iconic design in the same manner.
At this stage Singer can remove the Porsche logo and no one will care, their brand is now so strong.
Singer is running a commercial business on porsche's back. This is the crux of the matter.
With really old cars?! It's not like it's a current model. Porsche is just cash grabbing and flexing since they make overpriced crap now
Not true. Singer's customers go to them for their unique, artistic restorations. Singer doesn't go looking for anyone. That's the crux of the matter. Porsche goes looking for customers, while enthusiasts go looking for Singer to get what they can't from Porsche. Big difference.
I think everyone is a little right here. It’s a Porsche product as the base and essence. However customers go to Singer for a specific “product”.
I would come down on the side of Porsche here, When Singer were producing a handful of cars their argument held water but they are now effectively operating as a small car manufacturer and as such their cars may start to reduce sales of the very top end Porsche produced 911 variants.
So what about Gunther Werks and RWB / RAUH-Welt BEGRIFF? Thanks to singer it made me start to appreciate th ebrand and how they can change little things that have a big impact as time changes... i was never a fan of porche but singer opened my eyes on the Porsche brand.
5:39 - He did mention about RWB though...
RWB is just a body kit. Interesting here in Melbourne the dealers are very happy to service and maintain RWB cars and the Porsche Club here welcomes them with open arms. Guntherwerks is interesting and I’ll investigate that further 👍
How is this any different from RUF, Gemballa, Guntherworks?
Porsche is just mad because Singer made a better Porsche
What about Ruf? In Germany they have been registered as a manufacturer according to the rules. But with a few exceptions, their models are very similar to the different 911s on which they are based. BMW has brought Alpina in house now, but even when they were separate, they would supply partially assembled cars for them to modify. In fact through BMW RSA, BMW sold models that were based on Aplina's including the 3 series with the larger 2.8 engine, the 745 turbo and the legendary 2.5 six upgrades based on the Aplina 2.7.
I think you are right about badging of Singers with PORSCHE decals on them. I am sure the pool of their clients will back them to a negotiated compromise. It probably did not help when Singer moved their manufacturing to UK. A bit too close to home.
Singer have definitely been to close to home for Porsche, especially with the Dakar coming out. RUF have had a long running arrangement with Porsche, even buying chassis direct at one stage. ZERO Porsche badging on a RUF as well, none.
This is not silly . Porsche standing up for itself. About time.
I do think they have a point with Singer 👍
Yeah Singer crossed the line. They were incorporating the Porsche name and Porsche mystique into their products. You can't do that. It forces Porsche to step in and stop Singer from capitalizing on their heritage and brand equity. Singer pushed their luck too far. Time for them to retool their business model.
What of RUF?
Slightly different I think with them originally buying chassis from Porsche and having their own vin number
RUF is a manufacturer, it now produces its own bodies and chassis which are actually quite different from Porsche.
As a long-time Porsche owner (5 cars over 30 years) and Singer enthusiast from a distance, I’ve got to say that the legal action taken by Porsche in this case looks incredibly petty and stupid…
@Porscheoscar. That’s my point. Ruf cars have no Porsche decals because they buy blank chassis from Porsche, with no VIN. Ruf is considered a manufacturer, so it gets its own VIN during the certification process. Since Singer is producing the DLS bodies themselves, the car body has no Porsche logos to begin with. Singer builds the DLS essentially from scratch, with a bespoke body, on a customer supplied chassis. The issue is that the body is styled to closely resemble an early 911. Even the carbon fiber dashboard is designed to resemble the period 911 dashboard. Singer is mimicking the original design, and then installing Porsche crests and logos after the fact, which implies that it is a Porsche product. They even use Porsche style font on the labels on the fuel and oil caps. Since the car still has a 964 chassis, the DOT will let it retain the original VIN, but from Porsche’s standpoint, it’s not their product anymore. The DLS is essentially a really expensive and convincing replica, badged as an official Porsche. I’m sure paying Porsche for licensing would settle things, but Singer didn’t do that. Nor do they have the Supplier and Customer relationship Ruf has in sourcing the chassis from Porsche.
Well said. It feels like Singer want to be Porsche sometimes and then sometime not.
Diluting the brand? Sounds like Porsche is upset they didn't come up with singer's business model so they can make people buy three Tycans so they can get a "chance" to buy one at "retail".
I saw 964’s get away from my price range due to Singer. Singer has helped to solidify Porsche 911’s an an investment. New and old. They should be thanking Singer for increasing interest in the brand.
RWB doesn’t get messed with is because he never removes the Crest on the front and moniker on the rear when it has one. Akira changes the width but not the shell
I agree
Porsche is just mad that Singer can sell a car for twice the price that Porsche can
Sue the high-profile, most respected company to send a message. Settle for $1 with an NDA. Objective achieved.
3:30 Being sealed doesn’t necessarily indicate an out of court settlement. When dealing with IP, it is reasonable from both sides to not want their trade secrets to be made available to other competitors.
Good point 👍
I suspect that Porsche didn't have any issues with the re-imagining business of repurposing 964s, but when Singer starts releasing their own 911-esque models, it isn't the same any longer.
Agreed, Singers business model does seem to have changed
It's almost as if Porsche is more angry at themselves for not thinking of this business strategy first...
@@Illtechnica Not sure what you are referring to. Porsche clearly doesn't want all classic 964s converted to retromods, and they already make new 911 models all the time...
@@MorningNapalm I'm referring to the notion Porsche would have rather had those levels of bespoke, niche enterprises within the Porsche portfolio long ago... if they first thought it was viable. Perhaps not to the full extent Singer has gone to, but a step beyond their concourse-level restoration platform in the USA and DE. I understand Porsche was familiar with Singer close to its inception and set parameters for the use of its IP. And they provide Singer engines from their Motorsports division. I don't think they didn't want the 964s or other 911s converted, they wanted it done a certain way. Ergo, the spat about the DLS/ACS projects. So they were protecting their heritage and *financials.*
If this was all under their corporate umbrella, this wouldn't be a concern. It seems their just trying to get the word out to Singer or anyone else at this point they will engage in a protracted legal battle if you test their IP limits.
@@Illtechnica I also think that Porsche just wants to send a heads-up: don't use our IP outside of agreed areas, and the new, 100% Singer cars definitely have nothing to do with Porsche.
I do not think that Porsche is happy about all the 964s being sucked up and converted to hyper-expensive rich boy toys, but I have no proof. I think Porsche likes their classic scene as it is. I own a '99 911, and the mail I get from them very much gives me the feeling that they like their history as it is, and keeping older vehicles on the road. If the occasional older car gets tarted up, it doesn't change much, but if a specific model gets systematically sucked up and spat out at 10x the price, it is something different.
I do not think that Porsche wants to get into the very-expensive-custom-car market. They have the custom shop where you can specify your own paint, seats, and so on, and that is the limit of what they want to deal with.
Wow, that's crazy this video popped up for me today. I actually just got into the deep world of Trademark Law research. People don't realize how important this stuff is. I didn't. I learned that brands are actually responsible for protecting their trademarks because it could cause them to lose important cases in the future which is why many major companies are seen suing for seemingly frivolous use of their brands.
Side note, for other youtubers out there. O, Fortuna is not public domain even though it sounds like a very old song. Haha. Used it on my last video and RUclips identified it. Crazy!
Completely understandable. Someone with basic car knowledge would immediately call assume a Singer is a "normal" porsche. Something from RWB or anywhere else looks clearly modified.
I think you’re right, singer have walked too closely to Porsche for a while which I think has fractured the relationship
These are customer cars (sourced by Singer) and upgraded. Nothing wrong with that. How does Ruf get a pass?
Because RUF is a car company. Not a tuner. RUF takes naked Porsche bodies without a vin number and engines and builds their cars with RUF vin numbers. Technically, they're not Porsche's
Well, what might be a problem, that Singer went from restoring/modifying Porsches to basically taking everything off and build new cars which look like Porsches and are even Porsche badged.
So that could open up doors for manufacturers building new cars copying the 911 design.
Yes, I think Singer should just remove the Porsche badging like RUF
So, why hasn't Porsche gone after Emory and their "outlaws"? Emory has essentially been doing the same thing for 25 years. BTW, I own a number of Porsches and love the company, but I fully support what Emory and Singer and others are doing. Porsche needs to settle this stupid suit for $1, and then let everyone go about their business.
Embarrassing for Porsche, Singers are just better.