Thanks for posting this. I followed the thread as it developed and this puts it all clear. I am glad you made out alright. You've handled it all very well.
Thank you... It's funny looking back now that I was convinced it was a real one when i first started the Zapper (my TooREX nickname..!) thread.... but by about comment 500 (LOL..!) I had changed my mind... It was the 'chew' evidence wot finally done it..! 😁
I had a 59 stolen in 1970 in TORONTO Canada........paid 225.00..... I bought it in 1966 but stupidly did not have the serial #..i miss it sooo much......
While videos like this are great for people like us..they are also great for the people that are creating these counterfeit/forged guitars. If we, the players/buyers/collectors are watching these videos so that we know what to look out for you can be certain that the 'bad guys' are also watching these videos. I'm sure that the guy who made this guitar will be sure to include things like a more pronounced 'chew' or tooling marks on his next 'build'.
@@telegrampam I was a School Psychologist for 22 years in Milwaukee. My first passion is writing. I've written a book and 10 screenplays. If you're interested, my book is titled "CONTROL." (A book about people with an excessive need to control other people and things. It's also about people who allow themselves to be controlled). I made a short film on RUclips called "The Prologue Short Film." Started playing 🎸 six months ago. I'm hooked.
Glad it all worked out for you. Good luck in your search. In the mean time get a recent Custom Shop RO. I have 2 2018s and they are like nothing I have ever played before.
one easy giveaway is the thickness of the binding inside the cutaway. The binding thickness should remain uniform around the perimeter of the entire body but you can see it gets thinner in the middle of the cutaway. The only way you'd see that on an original would be if someone refinished it and accidentally over-sanded the top.
@@telegrampam The first LPs reissued in around 1968 had a wider piece of binding only in the cutaway to mask the 1/2” maple top. The original LPs had a uniform height all around the top and exposed the maple top in the cutaway as with the OP’s example as the maple top is lighter in color than the mahogany body. Gibson finally corrected that detail in the 1980’s. btw: Under the truss rod cover, the acorn nut found on the truss rod in the original instruments were shaped differently than the reissue models. Sorry if I let that secret get out😉
Nice video. I’m sorry that happened. Lol. Most of us serious Gibson fans know the truss rod differences. I’m a big fan of the Gibson truss rod, and it’s a major deal in my mind.
While you're here, anyone fancy a superb ES175 inspired archtop jazzer from Shanghai...? We've sold loads over the years and now have just ONE left.... Interested? They really are incredible value for money, at about a 1/10th of the price of the Gibbo version. And don't take our word for it though - check out our feedback about them on eBay here...😊 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384176201787?hash=item5972afa03b:g:mQsAAOSwG5dgp8Il
Absolutely... The threat of Court action helped a bit LOL...! And yes, VERY happy with what I ended up with.. a beautiful '53/'59 conversion by YM that cost about HALF of the dodgy 'Nile' Burst above... 😊
I would never buy anything from Elite Vintage Guitars. Even if I was omniscient, won Euromillions and knew a guitar was 100% legit, purely on principle. The seller and his associates have an extremely poor reputation amongst the informed and seem to work on the principle of 'a few really expensive sales to people who mistakenly trust us' rather than just being straightforward. This is why all their guitars are very overpriced and lacking meaningful provenance, hoping people just see what they want to see and being motivated that they will miss this chance even if it is a lot more expensive than it really should be. They come up in searches about Gibsons, Fenders, Yamahas, Wal basses and more. It's always the same, rare or high end quality instruments being sold for insane prices with the minimum of information they feel they can get away with. Usually the guitars are very played in, to the point of justifying non original parts and work. I'm really glad you got your money back, no one deserves this to happen to them. Hope you get that 59 one day.
This is why I just won't buy a Vintage guitar. Only way I would is if I knew enough to authenticate myself. However I've been doing fine with my Custom shop pieces. I play my guitars constantly so maybe that's for the best. Kudos to you into doing the legwork to find out the truth about that guitar! Wow it fooled almost everyone except the die-hard guys.
The custom shop reissues sound great no doubt! Expensive but worth it. The upper mid range on the older ones remain unmatched. I'm sure your custom shop pieces will mellow out through time and sound better and better! Always bring a pro with you if you are interested in vintage pieces.Best of luck!
@@telegrampam lol! I've seen many people get ripped off!!! That is why I said it. There's a lot of money fluctuating with these rare pieces. No reason to rip someone off And take advantage of them for big bucks. Have a great day.
That was an education, I was fully aware of Gibson's Les Paul from the 50-60s being 5 figured sums,but never in a million years think that the damn pick up surrounds are $20k !!!,or the poker chip $5k or the pickups being so Much if they're vintage, what an insight, amazing video, sorry it didn't turn out well for you, but you are very lucky to be in a position to take it back and had the money back already, phew, I bet there's a few who got 1 of these and they don't even know it, the only thing looked a bit off for me was the logo,but I would have put it down to age or something lol,👍✌️
the japanese guitars generally didn't have one piece necks. they would have a norlin style pancake neck or a 50s style neck but with the headstock jointed on
@@andrewgarcia3136 I'm sure buyers and sellers will learn from your info, great stuff 👍I was telling my mate about your experience yesterday and how much parts cost,his chin hit the floor 😂, also mentioned that repair job on the neck of your guitar,one of the best repair Jobs I've seen,or can't see in your case, it's excellent 👍
Yeah, i suppose i was lucky in the end (the threat of Court action helped a bit LOL..!). The NEW owner however contacted me recently asking me for proof it WAS a fake...!! He's convinced it's not...!! Wonder how much the mug paid for it....?! 😁
@@andrewgarcia3136 I had an Antoria LP in the '70s and I'm pretty sure it was one piece... I still have a 70s Columbus LP though and that IS a 2 piece...
@@noname1st139 It is indeed an excellent repair... In fact i took a '60s SG to the same guy, Leighton, last week to repair a small crack at the headstock.... But he had a good look at it and said it was just a lacquer crack, not the wood itself, and said no repair was necessary.... all free of charge..!! An excellent luthier IMHO, check him out at www.leightonsguitarshop.com/
At least he gave you a real case. Would have loved to read that thread but it does not come up with that link you posted? What is the Name you use to post on the Les paul forum?
Hi mate, looks like they've moved the forum to a 'new provider' so clearly my link doesn't work anymore... If you find the original discussion I think I used my old band nickname 'Zapper'. Cheers..! 🙂
@@telegrampam Why butcher a nice vintage Les Paul and try and turn it into something it's not? It will never be a real burst and with all the conversion going on pre-burst Les Pauls are gonna be more rare than real bursts..
@@telegrampam I have a problem with people destroying vintage guitars and try to make it into something it's not. You can put a diamond ring on a pig, it's still a pig. It's not a burst and it will never be a burst. I think it's kinda sad..
@@simonvanderheijden432 I think you're "kinda sad" mate... You have NO idea what state of repair the original '53 Gold Top was in before it was converted have you??! Well I have. It was dreadful - it had been refinished in what looked like Dulux emulsion, half the machine heads were either broken or non-original, and one of the P90s was bust... But that's ok is it..? Good luck sticking with your pigs.....
So out of curiosity did you ever find out what this guitar actually is? And how does it player sound it certainly isn't worth 1960 money but it looks nice enough must be worth something
No, as discussed elsewhere (on numerous occasions..!) I'm still no closer to ever finding out how it started life... And as I no longer own it I don't really care. My guess though is it's early/mid 70s MIJ..
god, i feel sorry for you after reading all these comments.. the internet warriors all came out of their shell for this one. never seen so many "experts" in one videos comments! think the best was "i bet its a chibson". good god, theyve much to learn havent they! well done getting your refund and getting to the truth in the end. damn, it fooled a hell of a lot of people. hope youre enjoying your conversion! (which obviously nobody should have ever done!) lol. another good comment i read pmsl. enjoy mate, well done..
Something in the shape just didn’t feel right, looking at it anyway. I’ve owned as many as 6 Les Pauls at the same time (I’m crazy that way) and probably 10-12 of them over the years, plus many Gibsons from vintage to Custom Shops. You know, sometimes you look at something (and that’s beyond guitars) and you get an odd feeling.
I've had a lot of Gibson's and I still do and soon as I saw the headstock I knew something wasn't right. But what I'm curious is the origin of the guitar? I've had a lot of the old Japanese guitars and they're really good. It's a shame we can't look in the neck and bridge pickup pocket and also under the truss rod cover. And the control cavity is a complete disaster and you can see that the one pot is not even in the right place. It's a lot easier to get an authentic Les Paul from the fifties then getting a 59 or a 60. But I am glad to hear you got a refund but I am curious what's in the cavities under the pickups I'd like to see the tenon and what not but that's okay.
Excellent video , thank you . Binding is wrong as are the pickup rings . 5 latch Lifton case condition is highly unlikely. The red in the burst is far too strong and the wiring harness doesn’t look too clever either. My best guess would be a converted late 70’s Burny .
YES only deal with proper specialists such as ATB Guitars et al when you are spending this sort of money !I Have owned a les Paul Standard, and a vintage Telecaster for over 50 years now ... and have actually had the the privilege of playing a friends genuine and verified 59 burst (its in the Burst book) BUT ... I don't think that I would be able to really tell the difference (looks wise) between a very, very good fake or an original 58 or 59 Burst ... Leave it to the proven experts! ... Great video BTW!
Even 'experts' get it wrong sometimes though... I sent some pics to George Gruhn in Nashville and his Les Paul expert thought it was 'probably genuine', as did well-known collector Tom Wittrock... Some fakes are now VERY good!
Perhaps you`re right with this being an old Japanese model. Some of the old Greco or Tokai models were considered very close reproductions. This guitar has an old look which might be hard to authenticate. Perhaps a skilled person has taken one of these older Japan guitars and added some parts and finishing details. etc. Interesting case.. perhaps it is an original or maybe even that`s been replicated as well. Lucky you got $ back.!
Thanks indeed I learned so much from you, I “Tweeted” the link so a few others will get word and perhaps they too pass on the info. On our channel perhaps for your interest there is a 10/2020 published vid regards to a 73’ LP Deluxe we had for sale. I “liked” this video and checked out your channel and happily became a new subscriber too. Cheers and look forward to explore your other vids and lto future ones your a good man!
OK thanks GGG...! Funnily enough I used to have a '73 (or maybe '74.?) LP Deluxe actually in the Seventies.... It was horrible..!! Those mini-humbuckers just ain't got no bite....! 😀
@@telegrampam ha ha yeah story was one of Thin Lizzy was with manager to buy a new guitar & he first choose a Standard but manager obviously wanted save a lil money and he ended up with the Deluxe. It worked out though as was a good juxtaposition from other mans Standard. Yep, well it still rips though but yep most of course including me if can take pick will choose Standard over a Deluxe that’s a gimme, cheers
@@guitargeargarage1482 Yes, I seem to remember Scott Gorham playing a Deluxe and thinking "silly man..!" I suppose that cranked up to 11 through a Marshall though you could still probably get a half decent rock sound out of it..! 😁
Mate a dead giveaway with those pickup rings is that you can see the original outline of the stock rings about 2mm outside of your M69s. This guitar is a metric import and someone's gone and stuck M69s on it, which are imperial and slightly smaller in size, so they don't quite cover the cavity entirely when they're used on metric guitars. Normally you can't actually see into the pickup cavity once the rings are on. But in your guitars case you can . Cant fake that cause the woods already gone.
And please explain how a plastic part can be either metric or imperial. I'm hoping you get my point... ;) The guitar looks already odd from a few feet away. The patina and the lacquer alone look wrong - or like something refinishes at least. Then the inlays and everything else as you pointed out...
I guess the fact that it was only £30,000 would have been the first red flag for me. As the old adage goes, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is…..
The red flag for me was the parts being replaced. It’s extremely rare, like seeing a unicorn rare, to find a 1950s sunburst Les Paul with everything changed out. 1950s Sunburst Les pauls have been worth a lot of money since the early 1980s. All the ones the were modded have without a doubt been restored to original given the 6 figure evaluation.
It DID make me wonder a little... I would have expected AT LEAST £50k given the value of the missing parts.... But the vendor's story about inheriting it from his Dutch uncle was very convincing (and he owns HUNDREDS of other guitars...)
You're the only other person I've ever seen that has ridged fingernails like mine. I wonder what causes that? Some of the prices you quoted for vintage parts are way out of line. $10,000 for for the switch surround? There are vintage parts sellers in the USA on Ebay and Reverb who have those parts for way cheaper than you quoted. You have to shop around. Your bridge is probably a Patent, on the bottom side it will say Patent and some numbers. Those are from '65. The originals up to '62 or so say "Gibson ABR1" then have a foundry shield mark. The saddles were brass but nickel plated, and are not sharp pointed like the Patent saddles are. Good video, thanks.
LOL..! Probably because I STILL bite my nails..! The prices I quoted were estimates given to me by Gruhn Guitars in Nashville, a fairly authoritative source. I think it was only $5k for the switch surround (a bargain LOL..!). But if it transforms a non-original Burst from a $50k guitar to an original one valued at $300k then surely it IS a bargain... And yes, I only recently found out about the ABR1 saddles - it did however have a shield marking underneath. Thanks for your feedback!
If it is this person I knew him, spent time with him, he boasted about how he did relic jobs on guitars and sold them at massively inflated prices due to his convincing handiwork. I googled him last year and found numerous threads talking about his rip offs. Probably led me here.
@@hollandjasper If it was GARETH AYERS (oops, named & shamed him..!) then yes, although I got the impression he was just the salesman gimp of a bigger fish... Maybe he's now dabbling in forgery too then but, like on mine, it didn't fool the REAL experts one bit... 🙂
Really really enjoyed this video, I still think the top looks really great I share your frustrations with the beauty of the burst book it doesn’t really tell you anything useful. I did think by now that all the genuine ones were well accounted for and any old guitar that’s got a bit that looks like it might have come of a burst has been long stripped. This whole vintage thing has become a total liability and most of my old ones are long gone. Did anyone suss out whether the body and neck were handmade copies or the bones of another old guitar?
Thanks so much for your comment. I agree, the top looks great, as does the whole guitar... That Beauty of Burst book is hopeless as a reference book... it has dozens of pages of pretty pictures but about 2 or 3 only of actual information about the guitars.... Very disappointing. And you're right about genuine ones being accounted for (like Stradivari). With only about 1400 ever made, it's not difficult to track them all down. I was very naive to think I had 'discovered' one... And yes, the vintage market has become a joke... £300k for a guitar? Come off it..?!! I now have a '53 - '59 conversion which is great - it was originally made out of the same wood, by the same people, in the same factory, using the same tooling, as the later 'Bursts. Yet my '53 conversion, which now has a beautiful tiger maple finish, a PAF at the bridge and early '60s PAT at the neck, cost approx a 1/20th of that..... Crazy. Finally, the CURRENT owner contacted me recently (!) wanting to know if I had a formal report about the guitar from an 'expert'. I said I hadn't and his attitude was that it could STILL then be a 'Burst'... The words 'head' and 'sand' come to mind.....
@@telegrampam It was you who posted to the burst tone seekers page asking about ‘the new owner’ not me who requested to speak with you. Additionally, I didn’t contact you asking for a detailed report, that subject came up when you decided to tell me about the involvement with Phil Harris, which I already knew about. I explained at the time why I bought this guitar and that I also have little interest in what other people’s opinions on it are. As I understand it you had the guitar for 2 years and still received your money back when you decided you didn’t like it. That’s a great outcome for you. I’m happy with it and it’s not being sold again. I requested at the time this guitar was no longer discussed, yet here we are with you suggesting I have my head in sand. Perhaps it’s time you resolved whatever issues you have regarding this guitar which I have had possession of in the past and do again now.
@@thekrakken6768 Interesting comments. I hope you were able to acquire this guitar (again) at a price better matched with its true provenance. If there's one thing I've learned - the hard way - is that absolutely nothing these days can be taken for granted, especially on RUclips. One thing that hasn't changed, however, is the way in which character tends to eventually reveal itself. It's the one thing that is difficult to fake. Anyway, thank you for providing another side - more information is always better than less.
Wow Im glad It worked out for You ,Its Easy too fall for the Hype ,With Every man and His Dog on here Hyping these things Up ,Love your Standard Tho Sick with that and Bye your self a holiday House LOL
The 'pawl' ( ? ) mark when the router either enters or exits the electric cavity is well known . I had a 1952 Les Paul and the fellow who was buying it took out his scewdrivers removed the plate ans this was what he looked for first .
The guys on the LP forum called it a 'chew'.... coz it looks like a bite mark..! Not so sure it's 'well known' though... I asked George Gruhn, owner of Gruhn Guitars in Nashville and well known authority on vintage guitars, about the 'chew' and he said he'd never heard of it..!! Not sure I believe him though..!!
@@telegrampam Of course George knows what this is .. If you want to visualise what this 'chew' mark looks like .. look at the Norman Foster aircraft museum roof at Duxford.. it is not a conic section or even a hyperbolic paraboloid ( the shape of a pringle) but Iam sure the 'chew' mark has a mathematical topological name .. I discovered it on the internet many years ago and it is very well known. One way of eliminating 1968 Les Paul bodies as being left over from 1956 Les Paul Standard as there is no 'chew' router entry/exit
@@deepindercheema4917 That's coz they changed the tooling when they re-introduced the Les Paul in 1969... No need to look at aircraft museum roofs to visualise a 'chew'... There are loads of pics on the LP forum. www.lespaulforum.com/forum/ Also, if George DID know what I meant by chew, he is a brilliant actor... Coz he had a totally straight face while I was asking. Most people in the know would have denied it but winked/smiled... :-)
Everything about the headstock is what initially drew my eye in for a closer look. But the biggest red flag was the price. 30K for a burst? I don't care what parts it needs..a husk with a headstock that had multiple breaks would be worth more than 30k.
Well it's either a fake or a late 1978-1985 models custom shop Norlin reissue. The fade on it seems to me to be Norlin era, cause that's when they did the fade I am not a fan of because it seemed cheap. I've seen many guitars with this finish. Did you ever verify the serial number? And Norlin era was through the 70s until 1986
No, the serial number does not turn up on any of the checker sites. And I doubt it was from the late '70s/early '80s - why change the pots to some from the early '70s..?! Still, I doubt we'll ever know. Certainly wouldn't surprise me if it WAS a real Gibson/re-issue... Like I said it played beautifully... 😊
I once asked Tom Wittrock about whether he had ever seen an "authentic" looking chew mark on a fake Burst. His answer was yes, however, I have yet to see this in any documented fake. Each chew mark is unique, almost like a fingerprint on a guitar. The other thing that would have dissuaded me from buying the fake in this video is the exaggerated widow's peak in the control cavity. Way too overt. Next time you visit any pawn shop in the states, carry around a black light to evaluate any vintage guitar. When you see a white pickup ring that glows, hide your enthusiasm and haggle with the dealer. The ring could still be a fake, but it could also be genuine. As Zapper states, the M69 rings are worth their weight in gold.
Remember in the video i mentioned that "a couple of experts had emailed me with a report that the guitar was a genuine Burst"? Tom Wittrock was one of them...... The other works for George Gruhn in Nashville. So do you now see why i was initially convinced it was real...?!🤔 Anyway, the sheer weight of opinion against it being genuine convinced me it wasn't.... including a telephone chat with Gary Winterflood, possibly the best authority on Bursts in the UK (I've actually played a couple of his....!). The chew mark would be VERY easy to replicate in my opinion.... in fact i was tempted to take a wood rasp to the cavity myself LOL...! The 'widows peak' though was mentioned by a number of people on the forum so you're right in that it should have been a giveaway... 😀
And 'black light' appraisals? Having seen a couple of my brand new Chinese guitars light up like Christmas trees under UV light, I now have no faith in it as a means of authentication... Apparently anything will glow if you leave it out in the sun for a couple of hours... (including the bald patch on my head LOL...!) 😂
The finish to me does not look right- the serial number is too dark. I had two sunbursts-sold one in 1989 and the other in 1990. That was regrettable. I do think that some of the new re-issues are better than what I had- the Wildwood spec Murphy aged 1960 re-issue is a better Les Paul than any of the old ones I owned or played, but that's just my opinion. The playability , neck shape and intonation are all improved. Still, not a rare old guitar though.
In what way does the 'finish not look right' to you..? Surely you don't think it would be anything like your '89 or '90 models, both nearly THIRTY years newer LOL..?!!
@@telegrampam It could just be the way it appeared in the video- it looked too opaque and didn't have that nice translucent 'dark cherry' color that one expects. It looks very much like my "Chibson" that I got last year.
@@paulsadoff3661 That's coz it's NOT 'dark cherry'... but more of a cherry sunburst. Explains it then... Also, this guitar (whatever it is...) is just slightly better than a 'Chibson'..! 😁
@@telegrampam the Greco super Real Les Paul copies come close to being exact replicas. The highest spec models have fret binding that rises up to meet the end of the frets (fret nibs). Nitro Finish, Dry -Z pickups, one piece Mahogany bodies etc. they could be used as a basis for a very convincing fake.
Your 90s les paul is later model like possibly a 1997-1999.. the early 1990s had a weird shaped S on the Gibson logo like my 1990 standard very much like the 70s and 80s logo which would've been more inaccurate to compare the replica 60' so your lucky you had a later 90 logo to compare to lol... ive dated your authentic les paul number 280 production. 29th jan, 1998 beautiful guitar👍🤘
@@telegrampam ahh i must've read it wrong hard to see if it was a 6 or a 8 in the serial number i guess haha. still lovely guitar those 90s standards. still same principle with the headstock logo...
@@eathanstraker2691 Yes, the 5th digit DOES look a bit like an 8, especially in the video..! Superb guitar though, can't understand why people thought the quality had gone down in the 1990s...
@@telegrampam i think from the wacky colours on the back and sides and pancake bodys and 3 piece bodys and weird wide pointy headstocks from the 70s - 80s i prefer 90s les pauls they are heavy well mine is haha but its a turning point to the right direction i would say the 90s was kinda a "Good Wood Era" for gibson imo... everyone has their own opinion but i know guys who only touch 70s opposed to anything apart from reissue's lol "they can keep em" ill stick with the 90s les pauls standards/Classic's
@@telegrampam hahaha, just ribbing you. Very informative video. When I heard the prices you were talking about I was astounded. I'm glad you got the refund and also glad you didn't reveal the trade secret so the bootleggers didn't the heads-up.
Because if you can replace replaced pieces with originals of the correct vintage you increase the value. Imagine the difference between 10k burst non- original and 200k one.
@@telegrampam yeah, I am becoming a Les Paul geek at 60 years old. I watched a LP verification inspection. Just a little clue I learned. Ive been posting a lot, Im a player, and I developed a magnetic acrylic pick.SVPick.com. lol, its not a huge project, but I use it. Its a custom thing for sure, but it keeps my expensive picks in order. sorry to throw that at you.
It seems that,there must be many counterfeit late 50s 1960, les Paul’s in circulation around the world? They only made so many, and the numbers weren’t large, yet every half successful rock guitarist says they own one? Then all the millionaires and billionaires who can’t play guitar, but have huge collections, all seem to have obtained the most rarest pristine examples of these guitars?
rough guesses say there were 1700 of them, many do wind up with pro's and rich dudes, theres quite a few to go around at the moment. its not like a penguin where there were only 90 or whatever.
So you can’t tell by playing it ? HMMM And can’t tell by listening to it ? hmmm . And half the experts say it’s real and it is actually not. Hmmm ONLY THE BRAVE .
Don’t compare a suspect vintage Gibson with a production standard. In addition, don’t even compare to a R0 reissue. They are even not the same. Also black light tells a lot on the finish and plastics.
The shape of the headstock alone immediately alerted me
In what way?
Well? I'm STILL waiting LOL..! 😁😆
@@telegrampamhes making a joke that gibsons lose headstocks. Its not funny.
@@Ottophil Why? You mean you've actually got a rare LP WITHOUT a break in the headstock LOL..?! 😁
@@telegrampamThe headstock looks like a ball sack. Haha The humps are too big.
Gibson made around 1,500 sunburst Les Pauls between 1958 and 1960, but today, only 3,000 survive.
Nearer 1400 in fact... but you're right, only about 3000 still in existence LOL....! 😁
that's hilarious!
@@hball6695 But largely true..!
@@hball6695 It's funny because it is true...
Gut every single owner probably swear, that its the real deal.
Wow, I didn't even notice the saddles on my abr-1 were brass !! Not till you said so and I checked, more sustain and less bright
well... you're now an expert. almost an expensive education. good on the seller for doing you right. thanks for sharing. peace!
Exactly... an expensive education, but hopefully worth it going forward! :-)
Thanks for posting this. I followed the thread as it developed and this puts it all clear. I am glad you made out alright. You've handled it all very well.
Thank you... It's funny looking back now that I was convinced it was a real one when i first started the Zapper (my TooREX nickname..!) thread.... but by about comment 500 (LOL..!) I had changed my mind... It was the 'chew' evidence wot finally done it..! 😁
amazing, the minutiae involved in assessing authenticity
Fortunately the seller was cool and you didn't end upside down.
The seller didn't want to end up in Court/prison.......
It was really a joke about the video ending upside down.
@@jeffmariajenson9751 Oh.... it's the way you tell 'em.... 😉😃
I had a 59 stolen in 1970 in TORONTO Canada........paid 225.00..... I bought it in 1966 but stupidly did not have the serial #..i miss it sooo much......
Beauty and the burst! I love that book
Nice pics, but not much else...
When a guitar "gets that far..." beyond it's actual value anything is possible. Best of luck sorting it out. Have a nice day! 🤓
Oi that's my garden bench..! What was the rant about then...? Tables LOL..?! 😂🤣
@@telegrampam Revised it again... Take care; cheers!
Can you imagine a worker at the old factory in michigan finds a box with these original plastic pickup brackets.
Awesome video , very educational thanks for taking the time to do this
My pleasure... thanks for your thanks Dan...Makes a change from some of the shite I've been getting on here just recently LOL..! 😀
While videos like this are great for people like us..they are also great for the people that are creating these counterfeit/forged guitars. If we, the players/buyers/collectors are watching these videos so that we know what to look out for you can be certain that the 'bad guys' are also watching these videos. I'm sure that the guy who made this guitar will be sure to include things like a more pronounced 'chew' or tooling marks on his next 'build'.
Which is exactly why I didn't reveal the giveaway under the truss rod cover....
If it is your passion, and joy every moment of it.
Not really, more of just a hobby..
@@telegrampam
I was a School Psychologist for 22 years in Milwaukee. My first passion is writing. I've written a book and 10 screenplays. If you're interested, my book is titled "CONTROL." (A book about people with an excessive need to control other people and things. It's also about people who allow themselves to be controlled). I made a short film on RUclips called "The Prologue Short Film."
Started playing 🎸 six months ago. I'm hooked.
@@lamontprospect9974 Not really into controlling people but thanks anyway and good luck with the book..! 😊
Interesting video. By the end, I felt like everything was turned upside down.
Probably one of them Japanese lawsuit guitars. Wonderful , wonderful guitars in their own right. Nice video!
Very possibly...... A Greco or Tokai maybe..?
The dead giveaway for me was the serial, the lack of cherry fading in the back, and that shade of red is wrong too both on the burst and on the back
What about the serial? And the shades varied immensely from guitar to guitar in those days so that's irrelevant.
Glad it all worked out for you. Good luck in your search. In the mean time get a recent Custom Shop RO. I have 2 2018s and they are like nothing I have ever played before.
Might do, but am currently looking at a '53 Goldtop conversion......
...which I ended up buying...! From Yuuki at PGV.. It's superb!
one easy giveaway is the thickness of the binding inside the cutaway. The binding thickness should remain uniform around the perimeter of the entire body but you can see it gets thinner in the middle of the cutaway. The only way you'd see that on an original would be if someone refinished it and accidentally over-sanded the top.
Interesting comment! Thanks, will bear that in mind in future!
Is there more information about the maple wedge they used. I can’t find this anywhere or heard it before
It was probably bullshit from the arsewipe who conned me into buying the guitar...
@@telegrampam
The first LPs reissued in around 1968 had a wider piece of binding only in the cutaway to mask the 1/2” maple top.
The original LPs had a uniform height all around the top and exposed the maple top in the cutaway as with the OP’s example as the maple top is lighter in color than the mahogany body.
Gibson finally corrected that detail in the 1980’s.
btw: Under the truss rod cover, the acorn nut found on the truss rod in the original instruments were shaped differently than the reissue models.
Sorry if I let that secret get out😉
Interesting and candid video - many thanks!
Thank you too!
Nice video. I’m sorry that happened. Lol. Most of us serious Gibson fans know the truss rod differences. I’m a big fan of the Gibson truss rod, and it’s a major deal in my mind.
Exactly Steve.... in fact that was one of the 'trade secrets' I mentioned in the video..! :-)
While you're here, anyone fancy a superb ES175 inspired archtop jazzer from Shanghai...? We've sold loads over the years and now have just ONE left.... Interested? They really are incredible value for money, at about a 1/10th of the price of the Gibbo version. And don't take our word for it though - check out our feedback about them on eBay here...😊 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384176201787?hash=item5972afa03b:g:mQsAAOSwG5dgp8Il
Aw man! I'm sorry that happened to you mate. Glad the seller refunded your money. Hope you're happy with what you ended up with!
Absolutely... The threat of Court action helped a bit LOL...! And yes, VERY happy with what I ended up with.. a beautiful '53/'59 conversion by YM that cost about HALF of the dodgy 'Nile' Burst above... 😊
NICE NECK REPAIR!
I would never buy anything from Elite Vintage Guitars. Even if I was omniscient, won Euromillions and knew a guitar was 100% legit, purely on principle.
The seller and his associates have an extremely poor reputation amongst the informed and seem to work on the principle of 'a few really expensive sales to people who mistakenly trust us' rather than just being straightforward. This is why all their guitars are very overpriced and lacking meaningful provenance, hoping people just see what they want to see and being motivated that they will miss this chance even if it is a lot more expensive than it really should be.
They come up in searches about Gibsons, Fenders, Yamahas, Wal basses and more. It's always the same, rare or high end quality instruments being sold for insane prices with the minimum of information they feel they can get away with. Usually the guitars are very played in, to the point of justifying non original parts and work.
I'm really glad you got your money back, no one deserves this to happen to them. Hope you get that 59 one day.
Now ya tell me LOL..! A bit late, but thanks anyway..! 😃
This is why I just won't buy a Vintage guitar. Only way I would is if I knew enough to authenticate myself. However I've been doing fine with my Custom shop pieces. I play my guitars constantly so maybe that's for the best. Kudos to you into doing the legwork to find out the truth about that guitar! Wow it fooled almost everyone except the die-hard guys.
Starting to agree with you. Buy a guitar for how GOOD it is.... not how OLD it is...!
The custom shop reissues sound great no doubt! Expensive but worth it.
The upper mid range on the older ones remain unmatched. I'm sure your custom shop pieces will mellow out through time and sound better and better! Always bring a pro with you if you are interested in vintage pieces.Best of luck!
@@whotendsthefire7234 Bring a pro???! That's not a bad idea you know... never thought of that..!
@@telegrampam lol! I've seen many people get ripped off!!!
That is why I said it. There's a lot of money fluctuating with these rare pieces. No reason to rip someone off And take advantage of them for big bucks. Have a great day.
@@whotendsthefire7234 People getting ripped off in the vintage guitar market SHOCK HORROR..?! Surely not LOL..! 😁
That was an education, I was fully aware of Gibson's Les Paul from the 50-60s being 5 figured sums,but never in a million years think that the damn pick up surrounds are $20k !!!,or the poker chip $5k or the pickups being so Much if they're vintage, what an insight, amazing video, sorry it didn't turn out well for you, but you are very lucky to be in a position to take it back and had the money back already, phew, I bet there's a few who got 1 of these and they don't even know it, the only thing looked a bit off for me was the logo,but I would have put it down to age or something lol,👍✌️
the japanese guitars generally didn't have one piece necks. they would have a norlin style pancake neck or a 50s style neck but with the headstock jointed on
@@andrewgarcia3136 I'm sure buyers and sellers will learn from your info, great stuff 👍I was telling my mate about your experience yesterday and how much parts cost,his chin hit the floor 😂, also mentioned that repair job on the neck of your guitar,one of the best repair Jobs I've seen,or can't see in your case, it's excellent 👍
Yeah, i suppose i was lucky in the end (the threat of Court action helped a bit LOL..!). The NEW owner however contacted me recently asking me for proof it WAS a fake...!! He's convinced it's not...!! Wonder how much the mug paid for it....?! 😁
@@andrewgarcia3136 I had an Antoria LP in the '70s and I'm pretty sure it was one piece... I still have a 70s Columbus LP though and that IS a 2 piece...
@@noname1st139 It is indeed an excellent repair... In fact i took a '60s SG to the same guy, Leighton, last week to repair a small crack at the headstock.... But he had a good look at it and said it was just a lacquer crack, not the wood itself, and said no repair was necessary.... all free of charge..!! An excellent luthier IMHO, check him out at www.leightonsguitarshop.com/
Why didnt the seller have it authenticated before selling? Thats been misrepresented.
Good question..! Because it was apparently 'inherited from his Uncle' he thought he didn't need to. But I should have done.... You live & learn..! :-)
Great post very interesting 👍
Thank you!
If it doesn't have a broken headstock repair, it can't be an authentic Gibson.
Very true LOL...! 😁
Thank you so much sir! 🙏🏻
Good info! You lucked out in that the seller is refunding your money. All is well that ends well.
The baseball bat helped JP..... :-)
The vintage guitar world can be dodgy.
@@JP-jy7sk Tell me about it...! Have learnt my lesson....
At least he gave you a real case. Would have loved to read that thread but it does not come up with that link you posted?
What is the Name you use to post on the Les paul forum?
Hi mate, looks like they've moved the forum to a 'new provider' so clearly my link doesn't work anymore... If you find the original discussion I think I used my old band nickname 'Zapper'. Cheers..! 🙂
Actually, if you find it, perhaps you could post a link to it for others to see? Thanks!
That's a gorgeous beast! i own a 1978 custom cherry sunburst. me likie. oh yeah
Very nice too!
Who cares.
@@Mr.56Goldtop About what?
@@Mr.56Goldtop hehehe
Just get a custom shop 60th anniversary reissue of the 1960. You have a LONG way to go in order to authenticate the real thing.
Ended up buying a superb '53-'59 Conversion.... fantastic guitar!
@@telegrampam Why butcher a nice vintage Les Paul and try and turn it into something it's not? It will never be a real burst and with all the conversion going on pre-burst Les Pauls are gonna be more rare than real bursts..
@@simonvanderheijden432 Coz it's now a cracking guitar that looks and sounds great... Previously it wasn't....
@@telegrampam I have a problem with people destroying vintage guitars and try to make it into something it's not. You can put a diamond ring on a pig, it's still a pig. It's not a burst and it will never be a burst. I think it's kinda sad..
@@simonvanderheijden432 I think you're "kinda sad" mate... You have NO idea what state of repair the original '53 Gold Top was in before it was converted have you??! Well I have. It was dreadful - it had been refinished in what looked like Dulux emulsion, half the machine heads were either broken or non-original, and one of the P90s was bust... But that's ok is it..? Good luck sticking with your pigs.....
Do all Asian copies have metric dimensions vs. imperial for original US guitars? Might be a clue.
So out of curiosity did you ever find out what this guitar actually is? And how does it player sound it certainly isn't worth 1960 money but it looks nice enough must be worth something
No, as discussed elsewhere (on numerous occasions..!) I'm still no closer to ever finding out how it started life... And as I no longer own it I don't really care. My guess though is it's early/mid 70s MIJ..
god, i feel sorry for you after reading all these comments.. the internet warriors all came out of their shell for this one. never seen so many "experts" in one videos comments! think the best was "i bet its a chibson". good god, theyve much to learn havent they! well done getting your refund and getting to the truth in the end. damn, it fooled a hell of a lot of people. hope youre enjoying your conversion! (which obviously nobody should have ever done!) lol. another good comment i read pmsl. enjoy mate, well done..
Yep, still no let up in the internet warrior comments LOL..! Fortunately my skin has grown a bit thicker now! 🙂
looks like a burst conversion to me, especially with the les Paul silkscreen way up on the headstock
Conversion from what? And what year?
When you were looking at the serial number, the back of the neck near the headstock made me suspicious.
✌️🤪🎸🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶
In what way?
Something in the shape just didn’t feel right, looking at it anyway. I’ve owned as many as 6 Les Pauls at the same time (I’m crazy that way) and probably 10-12 of them over the years, plus many Gibsons from vintage to Custom Shops. You know, sometimes you look at something (and that’s beyond guitars) and you get an odd feeling.
@@marions.120 The necks on old Gibsons are very different to those on newer ones.. Can't really compare them...
@@telegrampam - I’ve played a number of “old” ones, vintage ones.
I've had a lot of Gibson's and I still do and soon as I saw the headstock I knew something wasn't right. But what I'm curious is the origin of the guitar? I've had a lot of the old Japanese guitars and they're really good. It's a shame we can't look in the neck and bridge pickup pocket and also under the truss rod cover. And the control cavity is a complete disaster and you can see that the one pot is not even in the right place. It's a lot easier to get an authentic Les Paul from the fifties then getting a 59 or a 60. But I am glad to hear you got a refund but I am curious what's in the cavities under the pickups I'd like to see the tenon and what not but that's okay.
The nylon saddles weren't used until about '62. The original bursts had Nickel plated saddles.
Interesting.. thanks!
Hi Ian, it was just over a year ago on the LPF..........good that it was sorted out in the end. All the best........goldtop0
Wow... was it really over a year ago now...! Time flies when you're having a good argument..! 😁
Excellent video , thank you .
Binding is wrong as are the pickup rings . 5 latch Lifton case condition is highly unlikely. The red in the burst is far too strong and the wiring harness doesn’t look too clever either.
My best guess would be a converted late 70’s Burny .
Fascinating video
Thank you Sir!
YES only deal with proper specialists such as ATB Guitars et al when you are spending this sort of money !I
Have owned a les Paul Standard, and a vintage Telecaster for over 50 years now ... and have actually had the the privilege of playing a friends genuine and verified 59 burst (its in the Burst book)
BUT ... I don't think that I would be able to really tell the difference (looks wise) between a very, very good fake or an original 58 or 59 Burst ... Leave it to the proven experts! ... Great video BTW!
Even 'experts' get it wrong sometimes though... I sent some pics to George Gruhn in Nashville and his Les Paul expert thought it was 'probably genuine', as did well-known collector Tom Wittrock... Some fakes are now VERY good!
Perhaps you`re right with this being an old Japanese model. Some of the old Greco or Tokai models were considered very close reproductions. This guitar has an old look which might be hard to authenticate. Perhaps a skilled person has taken one of these older Japan guitars and added some parts and finishing details. etc. Interesting case.. perhaps it is an original or maybe even that`s been replicated as well. Lucky you got $ back.!
My money's on it being either a '70s Tokai or Antoria, both of which were quality copies at the time...
When you know (!) the front and back of the headstock look obviously refinished.
How can you tell? Not obvious to me LOL..! :-)
Pretty impressive copy.
It is indeed... Sounds and plays great..!
Thanks indeed I learned so much from you, I “Tweeted” the link so a few others will get word and perhaps they too pass on the info.
On our channel perhaps for your interest there is a 10/2020 published vid regards to a 73’ LP Deluxe we had for sale.
I “liked” this video and checked out your channel and happily became a new subscriber too. Cheers and look forward to explore your other vids and lto future ones your a good man!
OK thanks GGG...! Funnily enough I used to have a '73 (or maybe '74.?) LP Deluxe actually in the Seventies.... It was horrible..!! Those mini-humbuckers just ain't got no bite....! 😀
@@telegrampam ha ha yeah story was one of Thin Lizzy was with manager to buy a new guitar & he first choose a Standard but manager obviously wanted save a lil money and he ended up with the Deluxe. It worked out though as was a good juxtaposition from other mans Standard. Yep, well it still rips though but yep most of course including me if can take pick will choose Standard over a Deluxe that’s a gimme, cheers
@@guitargeargarage1482 Yes, I seem to remember Scott Gorham playing a Deluxe and thinking "silly man..!" I suppose that cranked up to 11 through a Marshall though you could still probably get a half decent rock sound out of it..! 😁
Mate a dead giveaway with those pickup rings is that you can see the original outline of the stock rings about 2mm outside of your M69s. This guitar is a metric import and someone's gone and stuck M69s on it, which are imperial and slightly smaller in size, so they don't quite cover the cavity entirely when they're used on metric guitars. Normally you can't actually see into the pickup cavity once the rings are on. But in your guitars case you can . Cant fake that cause the woods already gone.
Interesting comment.... Do you think it's likely to be have originally been a Jap copy then? A '70s Greco maybe? Or Antoria?
And please explain how a plastic part can be either metric or imperial. I'm hoping you get my point... ;)
The guitar looks already odd from a few feet away. The patina and the lacquer alone look wrong - or like something refinishes at least. Then the inlays and everything else as you pointed out...
I guess the fact that it was only £30,000 would have been the first red flag for me. As the old adage goes, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is…..
The red flag for me was the parts being replaced. It’s extremely rare, like seeing a unicorn rare, to find a 1950s sunburst Les Paul with everything changed out.
1950s Sunburst Les pauls have been worth a lot of money since the early 1980s. All the ones the were modded have without a doubt been restored to original given the 6 figure evaluation.
It DID make me wonder a little... I would have expected AT LEAST £50k given the value of the missing parts.... But the vendor's story about inheriting it from his Dutch uncle was very convincing (and he owns HUNDREDS of other guitars...)
@@wilson4180 Maybe... but unrestored ones DO still turn up....
@@wilson4180 they have been worth a lot since the early seventies.. 800 bucks in 72?
The kind of thing nightmares are made of.
Or dreams....
You're the only other person I've ever seen that has ridged fingernails like mine. I wonder what causes that? Some of the prices you quoted for vintage parts are way out of line. $10,000 for for the switch surround? There are vintage parts sellers in the USA on Ebay and Reverb who have those parts for way cheaper than you quoted. You have to shop around. Your bridge is probably a Patent, on the bottom side it will say Patent and some numbers. Those are from '65. The originals up to '62 or so say "Gibson ABR1" then have a foundry shield mark. The saddles were brass but nickel plated, and are not sharp pointed like the Patent saddles are. Good video, thanks.
LOL..! Probably because I STILL bite my nails..! The prices I quoted were estimates given to me by Gruhn Guitars in Nashville, a fairly authoritative source. I think it was only $5k for the switch surround (a bargain LOL..!). But if it transforms a non-original Burst from a $50k guitar to an original one valued at $300k then surely it IS a bargain... And yes, I only recently found out about the ABR1 saddles - it did however have a shield marking underneath. Thanks for your feedback!
I’m wondering if the person you purchased this from had the initials GA?
Indeed LOL..! Why, did you buy it as well LOL..?! 😄
If it is this person I knew him, spent time with him, he boasted about how he did relic jobs on guitars and sold them at massively inflated prices due to his convincing handiwork. I googled him last year and found numerous threads talking about his rip offs. Probably led me here.
@@hollandjasper If it was GARETH AYERS (oops, named & shamed him..!) then yes, although I got the impression he was just the salesman gimp of a bigger fish... Maybe he's now dabbling in forgery too then but, like on mine, it didn't fool the REAL experts one bit... 🙂
@@telegrampam yes that’s him. Never buy anything from this person.
@@hollandjasper Don't worry, I've learnt my lesson..! Thanks anyway! 😃
Really really enjoyed this video, I still think the top looks really great
I share your frustrations with the beauty of the burst book it doesn’t really tell you anything useful.
I did think by now that all the genuine ones were well accounted for and any old guitar that’s got a bit that looks like it might have come of a burst has been long stripped.
This whole vintage thing has become a total liability and most of my old ones are long gone.
Did anyone suss out whether the body and neck were handmade copies or the bones of another old guitar?
Thanks so much for your comment. I agree, the top looks great, as does the whole guitar... That Beauty of Burst book is hopeless as a reference book... it has dozens of pages of pretty pictures but about 2 or 3 only of actual information about the guitars.... Very disappointing.
And you're right about genuine ones being accounted for (like Stradivari). With only about 1400 ever made, it's not difficult to track them all down. I was very naive to think I had 'discovered' one...
And yes, the vintage market has become a joke... £300k for a guitar? Come off it..?!! I now have a '53 - '59 conversion which is great - it was originally made out of the same wood, by the same people, in the same factory, using the same tooling, as the later 'Bursts. Yet my '53 conversion, which now has a beautiful tiger maple finish, a PAF at the bridge and early '60s PAT at the neck, cost approx a 1/20th of that..... Crazy.
Finally, the CURRENT owner contacted me recently (!) wanting to know if I had a formal report about the guitar from an 'expert'. I said I hadn't and his attitude was that it could STILL then be a 'Burst'... The words 'head' and 'sand' come to mind.....
@@telegrampam It was you who posted to the burst tone seekers page asking about ‘the new owner’ not me who requested to speak with you. Additionally, I didn’t contact you asking for a detailed report, that subject came up when you decided to tell me about the involvement with Phil Harris, which I already knew about. I explained at the time why I bought this guitar and that I also have little interest in what other people’s opinions on it are. As I understand it you had the guitar for 2 years and still received your money back when you decided you didn’t like it. That’s a great outcome for you. I’m happy with it and it’s not being sold again. I requested at the time this guitar was no longer discussed, yet here we are with you suggesting I have my head in sand. Perhaps it’s time you resolved whatever issues you have regarding this guitar which I have had possession of in the past and do again now.
@@thekrakken6768 Little interest in what other what..?? Who are you anyway? Are you the new owner/mug/victim?
@@thekrakken6768 Interesting comments. I hope you were able to acquire this guitar (again) at a price better matched with its true provenance. If there's one thing I've learned - the hard way - is that absolutely nothing these days can be taken for granted, especially on RUclips. One thing that hasn't changed, however, is the way in which character tends to eventually reveal itself. It's the one thing that is difficult to fake. Anyway, thank you for providing another side - more information is always better than less.
Wow Im glad It worked out for You ,Its Easy too fall for the Hype ,With Every man and His Dog on here Hyping these things Up ,Love your Standard Tho Sick with that and Bye your self a holiday House LOL
Thank you..!
Also ,original body colour normally looks faded ,less red ,compared to inside the cavity.
I'm going to need to see that Ferrari of yours authenticated. :P
It's a fair cop Guv... I'll come quietly..... 😁
@@telegrampam :) in all seriousness, would love to see you do a "walk around" on your '53 les Paul conversion.
The 'pawl' ( ? ) mark when the router either enters or exits the electric cavity is well known . I had a 1952 Les Paul and the fellow who was buying it took out his scewdrivers removed the plate ans this was what he looked for first .
The guys on the LP forum called it a 'chew'.... coz it looks like a bite mark..! Not so sure it's 'well known' though... I asked George Gruhn, owner of Gruhn Guitars in Nashville and well known authority on vintage guitars, about the 'chew' and he said he'd never heard of it..!! Not sure I believe him though..!!
www.amazon.co.uk/Gruhns-Guide-Vintage-Guitars-Identification/dp/087930944X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Gruhn%27s+Guide+to+Vintage+Guitars&qid=1618882629&s=books&sr=1-1
@@telegrampam Of course George knows what this is .. If you want to visualise what this 'chew' mark looks like .. look at the Norman Foster aircraft museum roof at Duxford.. it is not a conic section or even a hyperbolic paraboloid ( the shape of a pringle) but Iam sure the 'chew' mark has a mathematical topological name .. I discovered it on the internet many years ago and it is very well known. One way of eliminating 1968 Les Paul bodies as being left over from 1956 Les Paul Standard as there is no 'chew' router entry/exit
it might be a hyperbola shape as I visualise my conic sections .. or even a parabola
@@deepindercheema4917 That's coz they changed the tooling when they re-introduced the Les Paul in 1969... No need to look at aircraft museum roofs to visualise a 'chew'... There are loads of pics on the LP forum. www.lespaulforum.com/forum/ Also, if George DID know what I meant by chew, he is a brilliant actor... Coz he had a totally straight face while I was asking. Most people in the know would have denied it but winked/smiled... :-)
Everything about the headstock is what initially drew my eye in for a closer look. But the biggest red flag was the price. 30K for a burst? I don't care what parts it needs..a husk with a headstock that had multiple breaks would be worth more than 30k.
What was it about the headstock? And the price is irrelevant - you never heard of old ladies selling Burst's for a song?!
30,000 for a 1960 burst?? that should be a red flag straight away??
Not if only 50% of it IS a Burst lol...!
Well it's either a fake or a late 1978-1985 models custom shop Norlin reissue. The fade on it seems to me to be Norlin era, cause that's when they did the fade I am not a fan of because it seemed cheap. I've seen many guitars with this finish. Did you ever verify the serial number? And Norlin era was through the 70s until 1986
No, the serial number does not turn up on any of the checker sites. And I doubt it was from the late '70s/early '80s - why change the pots to some from the early '70s..?! Still, I doubt we'll ever know. Certainly wouldn't surprise me if it WAS a real Gibson/re-issue... Like I said it played beautifully... 😊
Fantastic looking guitar though. Is it a gibson or the whole thing is fake?
About 90% fake..!
Did you figure out exactly what it is? Was this a reworked tokai or something?
No... never did find out.. I suspect that the vendor, elitevintageguitars.com/, know though.....
@@telegrampam Hope they have you a refund. Sorry to hear that. Still a nice looking guitar though.
@@jerrymorganjr Yeah, refunded in full..
So is it a HONDO ? ? ?
Very unlikely... they were pretty cheap & cheerful as i remember... My money's on a Tokai..
That looks like a 1980 Greco to me. I have a 78 almost identical
Very possibly..!
the price should of been the first give away ..
Not if you consider how much work and original parts it needed..
Interesting. Was just wondering who can afford to buy a guitar for £30K then I saw the red Ferrari in the background at the end of the video!😏
That's fake too LOL...! ;-)
better yet.. who can afford a ferrari and not pony up for an original burst??
@@gregwilson2721 Not me.... an original Burst is 4 times the price of my F430... I ain't no Jeff Bezos..! 😁
"the forgers" already have all the info they need lol, they don't bother to get the details right because it's too much work.
Good point... presumably all they have to do is lay their hands on an original Burst and get copying...
sorry about the guitar, are you Australia 🙃
LOL..! Yeah, never was any good at camerawork!
I once asked Tom Wittrock about whether he had ever seen an "authentic" looking chew mark on a fake Burst. His answer was yes, however, I have yet to see this in any documented fake. Each chew mark is unique, almost like a fingerprint on a guitar. The other thing that would have dissuaded me from buying the fake in this video is the exaggerated widow's peak in the control cavity. Way too overt.
Next time you visit any pawn shop in the states, carry around a black light to evaluate any vintage guitar. When you see a white pickup ring that glows, hide your enthusiasm and haggle with the dealer. The ring could still be a fake, but it could also be genuine. As Zapper states, the M69 rings are worth their weight in gold.
Remember in the video i mentioned that "a couple of experts had emailed me with a report that the guitar was a genuine Burst"? Tom Wittrock was one of them...... The other works for George Gruhn in Nashville. So do you now see why i was initially convinced it was real...?!🤔 Anyway, the sheer weight of opinion against it being genuine convinced me it wasn't.... including a telephone chat with Gary Winterflood, possibly the best authority on Bursts in the UK (I've actually played a couple of his....!). The chew mark would be VERY easy to replicate in my opinion.... in fact i was tempted to take a wood rasp to the cavity myself LOL...! The 'widows peak' though was mentioned by a number of people on the forum so you're right in that it should have been a giveaway... 😀
And 'black light' appraisals? Having seen a couple of my brand new Chinese guitars light up like Christmas trees under UV light, I now have no faith in it as a means of authentication... Apparently anything will glow if you leave it out in the sun for a couple of hours... (including the bald patch on my head LOL...!) 😂
The finish to me does not look right- the serial number is too dark. I had two sunbursts-sold one in 1989 and the other in 1990. That was regrettable. I do think that some of the new re-issues are better than what I had- the Wildwood spec Murphy aged 1960 re-issue is a better Les Paul than any of the old ones I owned or played, but that's just my opinion. The playability , neck shape and intonation are all improved. Still, not a rare old guitar though.
In what way does the 'finish not look right' to you..? Surely you don't think it would be anything like your '89 or '90 models, both nearly THIRTY years newer LOL..?!!
@@telegrampam It could just be the way it appeared in the video- it looked too opaque and didn't have that nice translucent 'dark cherry' color that one expects. It looks very much like my "Chibson" that I got last year.
@@paulsadoff3661 That's coz it's NOT 'dark cherry'... but more of a cherry sunburst. Explains it then... Also, this guitar (whatever it is...) is just slightly better than a 'Chibson'..! 😁
You paid 30000 for that? Oh my! Once you opened the case I thought, here we go.
Always check the frets if the frets extend into the binding on the neck it's a fake Gibson frets stop right on the binding not past the binding.
Unless it has been re-fretted...
The Greco Super reals have the fret end nibs from the EG-850 model upwards.
@@stevecroft5068 Not quite sure what you mean Steve... Could you explain please?
@@telegrampam the Greco super Real Les Paul copies come close to being exact replicas. The highest spec models have fret binding that rises up to meet the end of the frets (fret nibs). Nitro Finish, Dry -Z pickups, one piece Mahogany bodies etc. they could be used as a basis for a very convincing fake.
Your 90s les paul is later model like possibly a 1997-1999.. the early 1990s had a weird shaped S on the Gibson logo like my 1990 standard very much like the 70s and 80s logo which would've been more inaccurate to compare the replica 60' so your lucky you had a later 90 logo to compare to lol... ive dated your authentic les paul number 280 production. 29th jan, 1998 beautiful guitar👍🤘
The serial number dates it at 1996.
@@telegrampam ahh i must've read it wrong hard to see if it was a 6 or a 8 in the serial number i guess haha. still lovely guitar those 90s standards. still same principle with the headstock logo...
@@eathanstraker2691 Yes, the 5th digit DOES look a bit like an 8, especially in the video..! Superb guitar though, can't understand why people thought the quality had gone down in the 1990s...
@@telegrampam i think from the wacky colours on the back and sides and pancake bodys and 3 piece bodys and weird wide pointy headstocks from the 70s - 80s i prefer 90s les pauls they are heavy well mine is haha but its a turning point to the right direction i would say the 90s was kinda a "Good Wood Era" for gibson imo... everyone has their own opinion but i know guys who only touch 70s opposed to anything apart from reissue's lol "they can keep em" ill stick with the 90s les pauls standards/Classic's
@@eathanstraker2691 I have a '74 Standard too (since about 1982..) and would NEVER sell it... It's awesome..! 😊
17:00 Seventeen minutes later your world turned upside down!
LOL..! Yeah, sorry about that. I have some friends in Australia so it's for their benefit really.... 😂
@@telegrampam hahaha, just ribbing you. Very informative video. When I heard the prices you were talking about I was astounded. I'm glad you got the refund and also glad you didn't reveal the trade secret so the bootleggers didn't the heads-up.
@@loudmouthnewyorker2803 I imagine they already know them.... 😊
Strange how everything 'plays well' when people think it's a Gibson!
Vintage guys are nuts... 20k for pieces of plastic? 🙃
Yep... crazy eh..?!
1k for a toggle switch tip (made from catalin)
@@napoleondynamite8564 Even crazier..!!
Because if you can replace replaced pieces with originals of the correct vintage you increase the value. Imagine the difference between 10k burst non- original and 200k one.
i have a new old stock pickguard.. youd have to twist my arm at 15k
Joe Bonamassa is the expert on these Gibsons.
He is indeed.... in fact he's the 'famous rock star' i mentioned in the video. I had a good online chat with him on the LP forum about the guitar...
BTW you misspelled Stradivarius.
LOL... no I didn't. That's my business name. 'Strat'...! Geddit numbskullhead?!
The pick guard looks wrong. The screw should be excessively counter sunk
Interesting... I'll add it to the list of differences LOL..!
@@telegrampam yeah, I am becoming a Les Paul geek at 60 years old. I watched a LP verification inspection. Just a little clue I learned. Ive been posting a lot, Im a player, and I developed a magnetic acrylic pick.SVPick.com. lol, its not a huge project, but I use it. Its a custom thing for sure, but it keeps my expensive picks in order. sorry to throw that at you.
Motion Sickness camera work
Lightweight LOL..!
It seems that,there must be many counterfeit late 50s 1960, les Paul’s in circulation around the world? They only made so many, and the numbers weren’t large, yet every half successful rock guitarist says they own one? Then all the millionaires and billionaires who can’t play guitar, but have huge collections, all seem to have obtained the most rarest pristine examples of these guitars?
Yep, just like with Picassos and Van Goghs there are some very good fakes out there....
rough guesses say there were 1700 of them, many do wind up with pro's and rich dudes, theres quite a few to go around at the moment. its not like a penguin where there were only 90 or whatever.
Nice
So what is your fake? A Chibson?
Chibson LOL...! Keep up there lad..! 😉
Latest thoughts are that it was probably originally a '70s Greco which were apparently very good reproductions...
Hard to tell from the video but the carve looks much too shallow as well.
A lot of guitars in that book are clones.
How do you know?
Perhaps you should’ve consulted with Joe Bonamassa before making this purchase ?but I’m glad you got your dough back . Forgers ....bollocks !
LOL......... yeah coz of course me & Joe go way back...! Maybe next time! 😀
It’s like triggers brush…
Not quite... at least that started off as 'original'...! 😊
Why do British people say "Lez" Paul rather than "Les" Paul? The man's name was Lester not Lezter.
You guys say Less Paul lol..! But we want More Paul..! 😁
Most guys or gals called 'Les' in the UK is short for Leslie (pronounced 'Lezlie')
The gap between the bridge and the bridge pickup looks too big
Trogley seems very knowledgable on Gibson vintage guitars, maybe look him up?
I will do... thanks!
So you can’t tell by playing it ? HMMM
And can’t tell by listening to it ? hmmm .
And half the experts say it’s real and it is actually not.
Hmmm
ONLY THE BRAVE .
And you CAN..??! Yeah right....
@@telegrampam
Haven’t played it .
I wouldn’t say .
Now that I have watched I feel like this is a Greco that someone redid the headstock. So, it's a $1,000 guitar.
It IS a Greco.
When he opened the case I thought it was a clownburst and not authentic.
What's a clownburst?
Don’t compare a suspect vintage Gibson with a production standard. In addition, don’t even compare to a R0 reissue. They are even not the same. Also black light tells a lot on the finish and plastics.
Oh sorry about that... I'll dig out all my genuine vintage Bursts instead next time... 😂
I would of spotted that serial number straight away..
I would HAVE spotted your poor grammar straight away...
@@telegrampam better to have poor grammar than poor eye sight!
@@mrabrasive51 I can buy some glasses... Can you buy a new brain..?! 😂
@@telegrampam i hear the British ones go pretty cheap!..🤪
As soon as you said it was heavy that tells you it isn’t a burst.