"Neither of these men has the first clue what they are talking about when it comes to justice in the Bible." This video was particularly hard hitting and cathartic to see these two put back in their place.
To be fair Prager hasn't the first clue what they're talking about when it comes to any topic they ever talk about. He's just a bloviating idiot who thinks he has it all figured out and ignores any scholarship or expertise that disagrees with his very narrow understanding of the bible and how it relates to modern culture
It's ghastly. Shame too as he used to pretend to be more reasonable and moderate and I used to like him. I listened to him in the early 00s because I like to listen to opposing views and thought he was rational. Had me fooled. For awhile. No more!
Thankyou for this. I means so much to have you taking the time to shed light on the lies and misconceptions that are packaged as truth, fact, and reason.
I’m staggered by the conceit of people who would want to remove justice from the poor and needy, but it’s very interesting to hear about the idea of cosmic balance paralleled in lawmaking and notions of justice. I’d love to know more about that.
Just looked down the list and found the references. I particularly like Proverbs 29:7 explains, “A righteous person knows the legal claim of the poor; a wicked person does not understand such knowledge.”
I have a degree from the hyper-conservative Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. In my first few courses, the professors belabored over and over that America was not historically founded as a Christian nation and warned us to not repeat this myth.
it's also important to note that their idea of Christianity was vastly different in 1787 when the constitution was written. Churches actively located themselves beside bars for example to encourage attendance and even had a break during the sermon to drink at the bar next door.
"Justice was not about the right punishment , Justice was about producing the right social outcome, because social order and balance was seen as the foundation to cosmic order" Boom! Nailed it!
I always enjoy your videos Dan. As a Religious Studies student I can only imagine how busy you are as I’m just scratching the surface but I do hope we hear more from you.
"Profoundly Biblically illiterate" yes indeed. Of course one could say that Rubin is profoundly ignorant about a great many things. As for Prager, he's just a flat-out conman.
It's a cruel irony that still this day the poor receive a very different justice system to that of the rich and wealthy experience, one that has them serving far longer sentences and it is even worse for those of colour.
My tentative rule is that Dennis Prager is always wrong. It's a tentative rule because not everything he says is wrong. But if I listen to him for more than five minutes, he will eventually come to a point where he makes a claim that is grossly false.
No, no it's not. This is a misidentification of what's actually an orthogonal matter. Lying is what liars do, and liars exist both inside and outside religions. Now, there's an obvious mechanism for liars to be selected by (and possibly self-select for) highly ideological roles in excessively ideological institutions, but that's neither necessary nor sufficient for being a religion. I know this because my parents were both priests, and Dan's videos here often remind me of conversations at home when I was a kid, and I became reasonably sensitive to just how carefully they were treading in the pulpit to _avoid_ lying, pulling out good ideas from the biblical text without making ludicrous claims about the structure of reality, no matter how comforting some of the congregation might have found it. And indeed, I'm not sure whether it's fair to construe either repeating what you have been _taught_ as fact, or even over-enthusiastic systematisation, as lying _per se._ Though in all honesty I know that I react to it that way myself, so I might critique but I can't really criticise you for saying it.
@@stephenspackman5573 lol,,you can't criticise me, you say. After criticising what I said. That's funny. Weird analysis of my comment though. Sounds more like something you should be talking to your therapist about. Unresolved childhood and family issues maybe. You do you though, not my problem. I grew up in a normal household , no ghosts, zombies or magic gods. Just reality and a happy life without delusional thinking or indoctrination.
@@scottbroadfoot3530 No ghost, zombies or magic I'm my upbringing, either, Just two empathic people studying their traditions and looking after their extended community. Seriously: my parents often told me, there's no such thing as magic, so if there's an inconsistency or something doesn't make sense, that just means there's more to learn. That's my point: you've decided to demonize a group when in fact your problem is with a behavior, a behavior that is just as common in governments, armies, schools, businesses and HOAs. Humans often lie.
It's also wrong to say that America is "the freest country ever made". It is currently 23rd in the Caro Institutes' Human Freedom Index, and 61st in the Freedom in the World index produced by Freedom House. It is also 30th in the EIA's Democracy Index, which is enough to earn the rating of a "Flawed Democracy".
The problem with these so called "freedom indexes" is they include a lot of personal biases that have nothing to do with freedom. Cato Institute is a libertarian think tank that mostly exists to tell billionaires that they should be allowed to do whatever they want. Cato is very upset that the Consumer Protection Agency exists. So, their "freedom index" lowers your score if you have government regulation or your government is "big" according to Cato. In other words, Cato's "freedom index" is not measuring freedom, but measures Cato's preferred political agenda.
As I recall, Moses' instruction to the judges was to also not favor the rich over the poor. But those instructions were specifically to the judges for trying cases, not to the Israelites as a whole.
This is much needed lucid and serious teaching, I like Prager but your deep digging deserves a serious response. Thanks for making us all think more deeply about all this, your exposition is calm and authoritative.
This is the content we need you producing. This is the content I hoped for when I asked you about the flood promise -- the world doesn't need you saying the flood didn't happen.
The idea of the founding fathers were less religious is interesting. There were the first and second great awakenings and the religious movements that came out of that. However there were a lot of times in the past when people just weren't as religious.
The First Great Awakening happened in the first half of the 18th Century, and had died away before the last few decades of that century. The Second Great Awakening happened in the early 19th Century, and was partly due to religious people reacting to the lower religiosity of the late 18th Century.
Well, there's Matthew 25:32-46, which is a mandate by Christ to care for the poor, the sick, and the marginalized...but there are a number of scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments that call for justice for the poor and needy. Contrary to popular belief, the "sin of Sodom" was not homosexuality but was, in fact, the wealthy ignoring the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49). As for Prager's beloved rich, Christ had this to say...."Woe to the rich, for they already have their reward" and "It is easier for a camel to travel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God".
It's kind of embarrassing that Dan knows more about the Hebrew scriptures than Dennis Prager, who is Jewish. It's also embarrassing that Dan seems to know more about the formation of the United States than a guy who's very conservative, who's part of a group of people who espouse "the truth" about the USA as if it's a kind of gospel truth. Prager engages in the act of myth construction (or we could call it "myth-information"), utilizing what's useful for his rhetoric.
Psalm 82 represents a condemnation of the gods for their failure to uphold cosmic order, resulting in the rocking of the foundations of the earth & ultimately Israel’s exile. The collapse of cosmic order is founded on their failure to render justice for the poor and the oppressed and the widow. I published a paper discussing the psalm in 2018 that’s available here: hcommons.org/deposits/item/hc:30469/. I also published a more devotionally oriented paper on justice, mercy & the law in the Bible entitled “Go Ye and Learn What That Meaneth.” That’s available here: hcommons.org/deposits/item/hc:49261/
Isn’t the idea that equity =/= justice also wrong under simple etymology? Equity is fairness, right? Isn’t justice also meant to achieve fairness? How can they be opposed? What kind of dictionary is he reading from?
People define fairness any way they want to. A certain presidential candidate is constantly claiming that any any action that wirks against his interests is unfair. Prager evidently thinks that it's fair that the poor remain poor.
James 1:27 - Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
The Hebrew bible also has things to say about the treatment of aliens. Just two examples are; Ex 22:21 that says” do not wrong or oppress a resident alien” and Lev 19:34 that says “you shall love the alien as yourself”.
Interesting that, as someone born outside the US, I have to remind myself of what you, Dan, say about interpreting texts even to extract meanings from what these people are saying. Because where I grew up, “justice” and “equity” are so close in meaning that it's hard to slip a sheet of paper between them. I think perhaps there's an idea in the US that criminal justice is about the destruction of rights, and civil justice is about the transfer of property, rather than trying to find a (formal and documented) path to the making good of-or at least, the mitigation of the problems in-a situation? But it's very hard to grasp.
Anyone who claims that the founding fathers were influenced by religion in the creation of the country, I simply direct them to The Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11.
So often with these aspiring theocrats, you have to ask "are they ignorant or dishonest", with Denny-P the answer is a resounding "both". The Bible is anti social justice? By my estimation, social justice is possibly the strongest and most consistent themes in the Bible. Prager is fond of taking about how unique the ideas in the Hebrew Bible are, how immoral all the contemporary nations were. Most of this is nonsense but the emphasis on social justice is one place that there is a case for distinctive moral teaching. All of which is my impression as an interested non-expert, open to correction.
In biblical studies it's always been called distributive justice. And it has been recognized in the Bible for as long as people have been actually reading it.
I've never understood this concept of Christians in the United States who have such a disdain for the poor but at the same time with clearly go to Sunday morning church services and listen about how Jesus fed and cared for the poor.
I think social justice is a misnomer for what it’s come to describe. Justice really boils down to: you get what you deserve. What we call social justice is actually often times social mercy, or social generosity. I’m not advocating against mercy and providing opportunities for people btw, I’m very poor myself.
Reuben just eats that nonsense up. The man hasn't read the Bible a day in his life and is suddenly excited that Dennis is using it to justify their politics.
This is my problem with the Bible. It is so easy for evil, racist, hateful men to cherry pick verses to say “MA GAWD SAYS I CAN DO THIS!”; And feel justified in committing the most heinous crimes against humanity. But a good man doesn’t need the Bible to tell him/her so be kind to the poor or the foreigner in their lands, they will do that anyway because they are kind and don’t need to justify themselves by appealing to a higher power. So it only seems that evil men use the Bible to advance their hate BECAUSE there are so many EVIL passages in the Bible that say they can commit atrocities. That’s why I believe the Bible is a net evil.
Dan. At this point can you make a vid about what IS true in the bible? Your debunking vids are fun, but what HAS the bible influenced? And What IS true about the bible?
I think the biblical authors were onto something about social breakdown having cosmic importance. Methinks that disembodied spirits do not have as much agency as embodied spirits do, so the greatest effects come from human actions during life -- anything after is more or less an echo that fades away.
@@penguinman9837Oops! This is a joke about LeftTube which refers to a kind of amorphous blob of left-leaning RUclips creators. The premise is that making video essays debunking right-wing creators, especially guys like Prager is sometimes seen as a cornerstone of LeftTube content, so I was saying this video was an involuntary initiation into that crowd. It was a very silly thing for me to say, since many in the actual community are ambivalent to the term and Dan McClellan's content is pretty apolitical...well outside of the fact that he's an educator and deep leaning and analysis of the world (and the Bible especially) is kind of just inherently amti-conservative... 😉
@@BrassicaRappa oh I saw the silliness and replied light-heartedly. However just for your information you basically just said that intellectualism is anti-conservative. Such a position is so far from reality that it needs to be pointed out
@@penguinman9837 Have to disagree. Anti-intellectualism is a pillar of modern day conservativism. You see the seed of it when religious parents are taught to homeschool or keep their kids from going to "liberal" colleges to ideas like YEC. Today it's conservatives ignoring empirical data that subverts & counters their political narratives.
The ARROGANCE on display by Prager was appalling. He was taking absolute joy in his attempts at rationalizing injustice for the poor. That blows my mind.
Even if the founders were the Christian sages these people think they were, who cares? Why should our nation’s laws, which are to protect all people regardless of religion, be influenced by anyone’s religion?
"Americans...." including the autoctonous inhabitants? Thomas L Thompson "The Myth of the Messiah" finds these ideas of social justice throughout the ancient Near East, btw.
“Nature herself intimates that it is just for the better to have more than the worse, the more powerful than the weaker; and in many ways she shows, among men as well as among animals, and indeed among whole cities and races, that justice consists in the superior ruling over and having more than the inferior.” - Plato
6:10 ‘if there were too many extreme in social inequality, that could rock the foundations of _cosmic_ order, then we would experience cosmic calamity.’ You say that as if you don't think this guy wants to bring about cosmic calamity. He and his whiny-faced brats directly and materially support their own vision of ‘an Antichrist’ (and I'm aware of the nonsensical trotting out of that particular concept as a singular noun, when it was only ever used in the Bible as an adjective). They do so because they want to bring about the end times. And they think their idea of God won't see their hand on the tiller.
Another RUclipsr who has destroyed Prager (and PragerU) is a guy named potholer54. He is a British investigative reporter who digs deep, always gives his sources (unlike the people he debunks) and lays out the evidence for all to see. He specializes in evolution, climate change and just "woo" science in general. I highly recommend his channel for the scientifically literate or just curious. If you love critical thinking, this is for you: www.youtube.com/@potholer54
He's also an extreme hypocrite. He's not an observant Jew, not even Reform. He literally cherry-picks the bits he can twist to support his fascist ideas and ignores all the rest.
"They quoted someone who quoted deuteronomy"? Are you saying you understood me to be saying that the founders were quoting the sermons and that's how they got published? if so, that's not accurate.
“ Square that with what you said between 1:00 and 2:00. “Did Deuteronomy have a significant impact on the founding of this country? Not really.“ I think you’re reframing the other person’s claim and then debunking it based on the extra caveats you added. He simply claimed the founders quoted Deuteronomy more than any other source.
@@jasonanderson_PA And I'm pointing out that that's false. The study demonstrated that politically oriented publications in America from 1760 to 1805 quoted Deuteronomy more than any other source, but all politically oriented publications do not constitute "the founders," and when you remove the clergy who published their own sermons as pamphlets (these are not the founders), Deuteronomy comes nowhere close to being the most quoted source. The Bible itself drops to 4th place. Prager was explicitly misrepresenting the data to try to make it sound like it was exclusively the actual founders by claiming in his Fox News article he referenced that the study looked only at publications by the 55 signers of the US Constitution, and that is 100% false. I have no idea if he intentionally lied about the study or just wildly misunderstood it, but his claim is indisputably false.
@dan do you are willing to state that sermons had no effect on the nation’s state? It seems you have a bias and you are cherry-picking facts to support it…aren’t you against this type of understanding?
Perhaps Denis is misquoting the Talmud: When two litigants come before you for judgment, one poor and one rich, do not say to yourself: How can I make sure to exonerate the poor one and charge the rich one? Or how (can I exonerate the rich one and charge the poor one? For if I charge the poor one, then he will become my enemy, but if I exonerate the poor one, then the rich one will become my enemy. And do not say to yourself: How) can I take this one’s money and give it to that one? For the Torah says (Deuteronomy 1:17), “Do not be partial in judgment.” Avot D'Rabbi Natan 10:2. It is not a stretch at all to see that קָטָןwould include the poor. Are you saying that Priests, Scribes, Levites, "regular" people and slaves enjoyed equity? or that the law pushed for equity? Life was different than today, and so the extremes of poverty and wealth were not as large, but they were there, as far as I can tell they were designed to be there. Without any shadow of a doubt the whole idea is heavily influenced towards taking care of the poor, but not legislating the poor out of existence. Deuteronomy doesn't say "give the sheaf, olives, or grapes to the priests so they can dole them out to the poor as they see fit after taking their cut." It says leave your sheaf, olives and grapes for those who need it because that is what a decent human being would do. (I am of course paraphrasing.) We are supposed to be generous and care for the poor, not rely on the state. I do not see the link between equity and justice that you are advocating for. The social systems were designed to maintain status, literally making any concept of equity (which I would appreciate a scriptural reference for) not feasible.
if we had a law telling you to leave some of your income out on your lawn for homeless people, you wouldn't cry about it any less than tax-funded welfare.
@joshridinger3407 if I understand you correctly, you are incorrect. I advocate for just such a law in most conversations. The solution to the problem, any problem, is keeping the state from being involved.
@joshridinger3407 you are correct. Which is why I would advocate for the law. If the law says leave 5 dollars on your lawn for the homeless, the homeless would get 5 of my dollars to perpetuate their homelessness. If the law says give the state 5 dollars for the homeless, the homeless might get a penny to perpetuate their homelessness, and someone in the state would get a new yacht.
The problem here is that Prager is talking about Justice and the in the video above the speaker does not actually define social justice, instead he says social justice is about creating a more just society. Would not in fact the Biblical meaning of Justice give a more just society? Of course it would. So the video continues that social justice is about making it so ones income does not affect how much access they have to resources and to Justice. You see that social justice is in fact socialism where the state gives to all the same things. Of course that has and can never happen but no one ever said social justice was practical. It is simply a euphemism for whatever good things one wants and they call it social justice. That is why Prager is right social justice is the opposite of justice. Even in the video after the socialism expressed he says after the resources "and to justice". minute 4:13 Then he goes on to talk about charity, which a lot of people mean when they say social justice, only we already had the word charity and we really did not need it to be redefined as social justice. Any modifier on the word Justice devalues the meaning of Justice!
you say social justice is merely a euphemism for what one considers good. that's only true in the sense that that is what justice is. to aristocrats, justice is the maximization of their wealth and power over the lowly. to the lowly, justice is the opposite.
@@joshridinger3407 No I said social justice is socialism. I would really like to see your source for saying: "to aristocrats, justice is the maximization of their wealth and power over the lowly." Pretty sure none would say that because even aristocrats use the justice of the legal system. Nor do I see any evidence that the "lowly" think the opposite meaning the minimization of the wealth and power of the wealthy.
@Zipd100 if you just define justice as whatever the legal system says, then it's not inherently contradicted by 'social justice' or 'socialism'. and yes, that's how the wealthy and powerful define justice. that's the only way you get a definition of justice that is an antonym of 'equity'.
@@joshridinger3407 "Would not in fact the Biblical meaning of Justice give a more just society? Of course, it would." A society in which slavery was condoned? In which women were treated as second class human beings?
@mendez704 i don't understand why you're attributing that quote to me, but i think most people sympathetic to biblical morality would consider slavery and patriarchy to be features, not bugs.
This guy is a classic sophist. He’ll pick apart technicalities in the fragments of what’s being said, throw in some massaged definitions of terms, parade his general biblical knowledge with references he knows you won’t look up and pretends to be able to speak authoritatively for the founders. The mutual exclusivity of equity and justice is reasonable and logical. Discuss the point without the sophistry.
Your understanding of social justice is poor. It sounds like you believe the rhetoric over the actions of the social justice warriors. But I would agree with you that no one is to be denied justice and we should care for the poor.
"Neither of these men has the first clue what they are talking about when it comes to justice in the Bible." This video was particularly hard hitting and cathartic to see these two put back in their place.
And you do?
@@calvertwilliamson4721 7:05
@@calvertwilliamson4721 Dan sure does.
@@calvertwilliamson4721 So...the US is a jewish country then? That's what Prager proved.
To be fair Prager hasn't the first clue what they're talking about when it comes to any topic they ever talk about. He's just a bloviating idiot who thinks he has it all figured out and ignores any scholarship or expertise that disagrees with his very narrow understanding of the bible and how it relates to modern culture
Prager’s glee at what he sees as biblical justification for crushing the poor is breathtaking.
At one point he seems to become sexually aroused by what he's 'discovered'.
If a biblical prophet was transported to today these people would not like a single thing that prophet would have to say about them at all
That's how slavery lasted as long as it did or was created at all.
It's ghastly. Shame too as he used to pretend to be more reasonable and moderate and I used to like him. I listened to him in the early 00s because I like to listen to opposing views and thought he was rational. Had me fooled. For awhile. No more!
It's ghastly. Sad thing is I used to like him years ago as I appreciate opposing views and thought he was moderate and rational. No longer fooled.
Thankyou for this. I means so much to have you taking the time to shed light on the lies and misconceptions that are packaged as truth, fact, and reason.
I’m staggered by the conceit of people who would want to remove justice from the poor and needy, but it’s very interesting to hear about the idea of cosmic balance paralleled in lawmaking and notions of justice. I’d love to know more about that.
Just looked down the list and found the references.
I particularly like
Proverbs 29:7 explains, “A righteous person knows the legal claim of the poor; a wicked person does not understand such knowledge.”
It is almost Confucian in a way
I have a degree from the hyper-conservative Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. In my first few courses, the professors belabored over and over that America was not historically founded as a Christian nation and warned us to not repeat this myth.
Your confidence and citations together are very persuasive.
Thank you for the great public service you are providing. Both the information and the tone you speak with are so refreshing. Greatly appreciated.
Yes. He is highly eloquent and doesn't show any anger towards believers.
Makes them much more likely to listen to him.
it's also important to note that their idea of Christianity was vastly different in 1787 when the constitution was written. Churches actively located themselves beside bars for example to encourage attendance and even had a break during the sermon to drink at the bar next door.
Sounds pretty great actually
Certainly explains how Christianity survived for over two thousand years if people were allowed to listen to sermons while drunk.
Thank you for the work you do
"Justice was not about the right punishment , Justice was about producing the right social outcome, because social order and balance was seen as the foundation to cosmic order"
Boom! Nailed it!
"... since it was colonized ..."
MY MAN!
😎👍
I always enjoy your videos Dan. As a Religious Studies student I can only imagine how busy you are as I’m just scratching the surface but I do hope we hear more from you.
I can't even start to convey how much I appreciate this explanation. Thank you!
"Profoundly Biblically illiterate" yes indeed. Of course one could say that Rubin is profoundly ignorant about a great many things. As for Prager, he's just a flat-out conman.
Well Rubin's brain is still in recovery mode. 😏
It's a cruel irony that still this day the poor receive a very different justice system to that of the rich and wealthy experience, one that has them serving far longer sentences and it is even worse for those of colour.
This was excellent thanks!!!
Dr. McClellan - you’re amazing
Dan love your work. I love the generosity with which you Beal with those you disagree with. Sometimes tho I feel like they deserve l as consideration.
My tentative rule is that Dennis Prager is always wrong. It's a tentative rule because not everything he says is wrong. But if I listen to him for more than five minutes, he will eventually come to a point where he makes a claim that is grossly false.
Amen
Lol
Another brilliant video.
Watching Dennis Prager in this video makes me recall the classic internet meme, "Even Jesus Thinks You're An Asshole".
Thank you, thank you. Someone who is countering Prager’s crap
Dennis Pragger is the Biggest religious charlatan out there, pun intended
Oh thank Goddess for this!!! 😊
If you accept the lies of preachers and theologians, lying to others is second nature. This is how religion works.
But you're telling, preaching to me about lies?????? WOW< I think not-----
@@fanny5105 what are you trying to say? Your comment is incoherent. Just like religion I might add.
No, no it's not. This is a misidentification of what's actually an orthogonal matter. Lying is what liars do, and liars exist both inside and outside religions. Now, there's an obvious mechanism for liars to be selected by (and possibly self-select for) highly ideological roles in excessively ideological institutions, but that's neither necessary nor sufficient for being a religion.
I know this because my parents were both priests, and Dan's videos here often remind me of conversations at home when I was a kid, and I became reasonably sensitive to just how carefully they were treading in the pulpit to _avoid_ lying, pulling out good ideas from the biblical text without making ludicrous claims about the structure of reality, no matter how comforting some of the congregation might have found it.
And indeed, I'm not sure whether it's fair to construe either repeating what you have been _taught_ as fact, or even over-enthusiastic systematisation, as lying _per se._ Though in all honesty I know that I react to it that way myself, so I might critique but I can't really criticise you for saying it.
@@stephenspackman5573 lol,,you can't criticise me, you say. After criticising what I said. That's funny. Weird analysis of my comment though. Sounds more like something you should be talking to your therapist about. Unresolved childhood and family issues maybe. You do you though, not my problem. I grew up in a normal household , no ghosts, zombies or magic gods. Just reality and a happy life without delusional thinking or indoctrination.
@@scottbroadfoot3530 No ghost, zombies or magic I'm my upbringing, either, Just two empathic people studying their traditions and looking after their extended community. Seriously: my parents often told me, there's no such thing as magic, so if there's an inconsistency or something doesn't make sense, that just means there's more to learn. That's my point: you've decided to demonize a group when in fact your problem is with a behavior, a behavior that is just as common in governments, armies, schools, businesses and HOAs. Humans often lie.
It's also wrong to say that America is "the freest country ever made". It is currently 23rd in the Caro Institutes' Human Freedom Index, and 61st in the Freedom in the World index produced by Freedom House. It is also 30th in the EIA's Democracy Index, which is enough to earn the rating of a "Flawed Democracy".
The problem with these so called "freedom indexes" is they include a lot of personal biases that have nothing to do with freedom.
Cato Institute is a libertarian think tank that mostly exists to tell billionaires that they should be allowed to do whatever they want. Cato is very upset that the Consumer Protection Agency exists. So, their "freedom index" lowers your score if you have government regulation or your government is "big" according to Cato.
In other words, Cato's "freedom index" is not measuring freedom, but measures Cato's preferred political agenda.
As I recall, Moses' instruction to the judges was to also not favor the rich over the poor. But those instructions were specifically to the judges for trying cases, not to the Israelites as a whole.
The first and only question to ask any “Christian” and especially “fundamentalist” politician is “what is your position on usery?”
This is much needed lucid and serious teaching, I like Prager but your deep digging deserves a serious response.
Thanks for making us all think more deeply about all this, your exposition is calm and authoritative.
@Nicholas Time That's me finished.
Devastating putdown
Nicky Time....Good old St Nick eh?
@@chrissi3193 St Nick makes a good point of never substituting your critical thinking skills with Pragur.
it's not "deep digging" to see the promotion of social justice in the bible. Only a propagandist like Prager would promote this claim
Dennis Prager is a right wing con man. He knows that he's spreading false information, and doesn't care.
This is the content we need you producing. This is the content I hoped for when I asked you about the flood promise -- the world doesn't need you saying the flood didn't happen.
The flood in the Bible did not happen. People need to understand that fact and the only way they can do that is to have the facts explained.
@@dwp6471 that is neither here nor there.
@@k.butler8740
It is both here and there. It is a response to what you stated.
@@dwp6471 "you are more knowledgeable about improving your world 🌍" the Prophet (peace be upon him), as quoted in Futuhat, chapter 12.
@@k.butler8740
Typical apologist. You change the subject.
I'll be saving this video for a later discussion with the zealots.
I just love the way to explain things from the Bible. Thank you very much.
Thank you so much. You’re extremely underrated
The idea of the founding fathers were less religious is interesting. There were the first and second great awakenings and the religious movements that came out of that. However there were a lot of times in the past when people just weren't as religious.
The First Great Awakening happened in the first half of the 18th Century, and had died away before the last few decades of that century. The Second Great Awakening happened in the early 19th Century, and was partly due to religious people reacting to the lower religiosity of the late 18th Century.
Dan is 100% spot-on here. Totally demolished the fascist apologists, trying to hide behind scripture, and failing.
Well, there's Matthew 25:32-46, which is a mandate by Christ to care for the poor, the sick, and the marginalized...but there are a number of scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments that call for justice for the poor and needy. Contrary to popular belief, the "sin of Sodom" was not homosexuality but was, in fact, the wealthy ignoring the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49). As for Prager's beloved rich, Christ had this to say...."Woe to the rich, for they already have their reward" and "It is easier for a camel to travel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God".
It's kind of embarrassing that Dan knows more about the Hebrew scriptures than Dennis Prager, who is Jewish.
It's also embarrassing that Dan seems to know more about the formation of the United States than a guy who's very conservative, who's part of a group of people who espouse "the truth" about the USA as if it's a kind of gospel truth.
Prager engages in the act of myth construction (or we could call it "myth-information"), utilizing what's useful for his rhetoric.
Beautiful.
Do you have any Bible stories/verses about this cosmic calamity from social inequality?
Psalm 82 represents a condemnation of the gods for their failure to uphold cosmic order, resulting in the rocking of the foundations of the earth & ultimately Israel’s exile. The collapse of cosmic order is founded on their failure to render justice for the poor and the oppressed and the widow. I published a paper discussing the psalm in 2018 that’s available here: hcommons.org/deposits/item/hc:30469/. I also published a more devotionally oriented paper on justice, mercy & the law in the Bible entitled “Go Ye and Learn What That Meaneth.” That’s available here: hcommons.org/deposits/item/hc:49261/
Isn’t the idea that equity =/= justice also wrong under simple etymology? Equity is fairness, right? Isn’t justice also meant to achieve fairness? How can they be opposed? What kind of dictionary is he reading from?
People define fairness any way they want to. A certain presidential candidate is constantly claiming that any any action that wirks against his interests is unfair.
Prager evidently thinks that it's fair that the poor remain poor.
James 1:27 - Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
The Hebrew bible also has things to say about the treatment of aliens. Just two examples are; Ex 22:21 that says” do not wrong or oppress a resident alien” and Lev 19:34 that says “you shall love the alien as yourself”.
Interesting that, as someone born outside the US, I have to remind myself of what you, Dan, say about interpreting texts even to extract meanings from what these people are saying. Because where I grew up, “justice” and “equity” are so close in meaning that it's hard to slip a sheet of paper between them.
I think perhaps there's an idea in the US that criminal justice is about the destruction of rights, and civil justice is about the transfer of property, rather than trying to find a (formal and documented) path to the making good of-or at least, the mitigation of the problems in-a situation? But it's very hard to grasp.
Anyone who claims that the founding fathers were influenced by religion in the creation of the country, I simply direct them to The Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11.
It took me a minute but I now see a handful of biases in this man’s videos. Good video tho. Doesn’t take away from your points
So often with these aspiring theocrats, you have to ask "are they ignorant or dishonest", with Denny-P the answer is a resounding "both".
The Bible is anti social justice? By my estimation, social justice is possibly the strongest and most consistent themes in the Bible.
Prager is fond of taking about how unique the ideas in the Hebrew Bible are, how immoral all the contemporary nations were. Most of this is nonsense but the emphasis on social justice is one place that there is a case for distinctive moral teaching.
All of which is my impression as an interested non-expert, open to correction.
God, how does Rave Dubin come away from what Dennis said and say out loud "It's a law against equity!"
Ehat
I wonder if things roll off your credit report every seven years because of that ancient Hebrew law
In biblical studies it's always been called distributive justice. And it has been recognized in the Bible for as long as people have been actually reading it.
I've never understood this concept of Christians in the United States who have such a disdain for the poor but at the same time with clearly go to Sunday morning church services and listen about how Jesus fed and cared for the poor.
I think social justice is a misnomer for what it’s come to describe. Justice really boils down to: you get what you deserve.
What we call social justice is actually often times social mercy, or social generosity.
I’m not advocating against mercy and providing opportunities for people btw, I’m very poor myself.
Define "deserve".
@@roytee3127 Think Karma.
I despise Dennis Prager
Let this man cook 🔥
Reuben just eats that nonsense up. The man hasn't read the Bible a day in his life and is suddenly excited that Dennis is using it to justify their politics.
I’m shocked that Denny Prager may not know what he’s talking about.
This is my problem with the Bible. It is so easy for evil, racist, hateful men to cherry pick verses to say “MA GAWD SAYS I CAN DO THIS!”; And feel justified in committing the most heinous crimes against humanity.
But a good man doesn’t need the Bible to tell him/her so be kind to the poor or the foreigner in their lands, they will do that anyway because they are kind and don’t need to justify themselves by appealing to a higher power.
So it only seems that evil men use the Bible to advance their hate BECAUSE there are so many EVIL passages in the Bible that say they can commit atrocities.
That’s why I believe the Bible is a net evil.
Thank you @Dan McClellan for your well informed explanation.
Could this possibly be religious people getting the Bible to say what they want it to say? I can hardly imagine such a thing.
It's Tiktok. No further explanation needed.
Brings to mind Ezekiel on the sin of sodom
Neither of those two men have any clue what they are talking about regarding justice, period.
I think sadly people who believe in social justice and people who don't both deliberately misinterpret what the other side means by it.
Ahhh Prager!! Someone needs to take his keys and drive him home.
Dan Spittin' here
Dan. At this point can you make a vid about what IS true in the bible? Your debunking vids are fun, but what HAS the bible influenced? And What IS true about the bible?
I think the biblical authors were onto something about social breakdown having cosmic importance. Methinks that disembodied spirits do not have as much agency as embodied spirits do, so the greatest effects come from human actions during life -- anything after is more or less an echo that fades away.
Even if the founders did… so what?
Donald Lutz? Sounds more like Lionel Hutz.
Lionel Hutz was a great man, lawyer and shoe repair stand operator. Show a little respect.
@@NWPaul72 - I Can't Believe It's a Law Firm
YOU DID A PRAGER RESPONSE VIDEO! That means you're a lefttube channel now no takebacks! 😂😉❤️
Not really... Nobody on the rightish side I know doesn't take Praeger with a heavy grain of salt.
@@penguinman9837Oops! This is a joke about LeftTube which refers to a kind of amorphous blob of left-leaning RUclips creators. The premise is that making video essays debunking right-wing creators, especially guys like Prager is sometimes seen as a cornerstone of LeftTube content, so I was saying this video was an involuntary initiation into that crowd. It was a very silly thing for me to say, since many in the actual community are ambivalent to the term and Dan McClellan's content is pretty apolitical...well outside of the fact that he's an educator and deep leaning and analysis of the world (and the Bible especially) is kind of just inherently amti-conservative... 😉
@@BrassicaRappa oh I saw the silliness and replied light-heartedly. However just for your information you basically just said that intellectualism is anti-conservative. Such a position is so far from reality that it needs to be pointed out
@@penguinman9837 Have to disagree. Anti-intellectualism is a pillar of modern day conservativism. You see the seed of it when religious parents are taught to homeschool or keep their kids from going to "liberal" colleges to ideas like YEC. Today it's conservatives ignoring empirical data that subverts & counters their political narratives.
@@penguinman9837 rightist side??? leftist side???
Thank you for revealing one of the b******* artists on the right.
Dan McClellan for Congress.
The ARROGANCE on display by Prager was appalling. He was taking absolute joy in his attempts at rationalizing injustice for the poor. That blows my mind.
Even if the founders were the Christian sages these people think they were, who cares? Why should our nation’s laws, which are to protect all people regardless of religion, be influenced by anyone’s religion?
Oh, so believed in what was literally the exact opposite of what is preached today on FOX News.
Deuteronomy 1:17 does reference the poor. When it says “the small”, it isn’t talking about stature, lol.
*The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American* by Andrew L Seidel
Freest …maybe then but certainly not now
The dude abides
"Americans...." including the autoctonous inhabitants? Thomas L Thompson "The Myth of the Messiah" finds these ideas of social justice throughout the ancient Near East, btw.
"Laws protecting the poor are unethical. We gotta fill the prisons with as many slaves as we can." - Dennis Prager, probably
“Nature herself intimates that it is just for the better to have more than the worse, the more powerful than the weaker; and in many ways she shows, among men as well as among animals, and indeed among whole cities and races, that justice consists in the superior ruling over and having more than the inferior.” - Plato
famous old testament author, plato
6:10 ‘if there were too many extreme in social inequality, that could rock the foundations of _cosmic_ order, then we would experience cosmic calamity.’
You say that as if you don't think this guy wants to bring about cosmic calamity. He and his whiny-faced brats directly and materially support their own vision of ‘an Antichrist’ (and I'm aware of the nonsensical trotting out of that particular concept as a singular noun, when it was only ever used in the Bible as an adjective). They do so because they want to bring about the end times. And they think their idea of God won't see their hand on the tiller.
Another RUclipsr who has destroyed Prager (and PragerU) is a guy named potholer54. He is a British investigative reporter who digs deep, always gives his sources (unlike the people he debunks) and lays out the evidence for all to see. He specializes in evolution, climate change and just "woo" science in general. I highly recommend his channel for the scientifically literate or just curious. If you love critical thinking, this is for you: www.youtube.com/@potholer54
Dennis Prager, what a/an..........
Ah Dennis Prager! The most reliable source of information…for WASPs!
ha ha ha ha
I read Prager's intro to his commentary on Genesis and Exodus. Astoundingly weak arguments. A charlatan, for sure.
He's also an extreme hypocrite. He's not an observant Jew, not even Reform. He literally cherry-picks the bits he can twist to support his fascist ideas and ignores all the rest.
I don't think that guy has ever said anything that is true.
…and the foreigner…
Dennis Prager, biblically illiterate? I'm shocked, shocked and dismayed! 🤨😒
Fascists love the Bible.
They quoted someone who quoted deuteronomy then. What's wrong with tracing the quote back to it's original source?
"They quoted someone who quoted deuteronomy"? Are you saying you understood me to be saying that the founders were quoting the sermons and that's how they got published? if so, that's not accurate.
“ Square that with what you said between 1:00 and 2:00. “Did Deuteronomy have a significant impact on the founding of this country? Not really.“
I think you’re reframing the other person’s claim and then debunking it based on the extra caveats you added. He simply claimed the founders quoted Deuteronomy more than any other source.
@@jasonanderson_PA Which they did not.
@@jasonanderson_PA And I'm pointing out that that's false. The study demonstrated that politically oriented publications in America from 1760 to 1805 quoted Deuteronomy more than any other source, but all politically oriented publications do not constitute "the founders," and when you remove the clergy who published their own sermons as pamphlets (these are not the founders), Deuteronomy comes nowhere close to being the most quoted source. The Bible itself drops to 4th place. Prager was explicitly misrepresenting the data to try to make it sound like it was exclusively the actual founders by claiming in his Fox News article he referenced that the study looked only at publications by the 55 signers of the US Constitution, and that is 100% false. I have no idea if he intentionally lied about the study or just wildly misunderstood it, but his claim is indisputably false.
@dan do you are willing to state that sermons had no effect on the nation’s state? It seems you have a bias and you are cherry-picking facts to support it…aren’t you against this type of understanding?
0:05-0:12 Ew.
One can tell that the Jesus who sends the woman caught in adultery off on her own with the admonition to "Sin no more" was not a Jew.
Perhaps Denis is misquoting the Talmud: When two litigants come before you for judgment, one poor and one rich, do not say to yourself: How can I make sure to exonerate the poor one and charge the rich one? Or how (can I exonerate the rich one and charge the poor one? For if I charge the poor one, then he will become my enemy, but if I exonerate the poor one, then the rich one will become my enemy. And do not say to yourself: How) can I take this one’s money and give it to that one? For the Torah says (Deuteronomy 1:17), “Do not be partial in judgment.” Avot D'Rabbi Natan 10:2. It is not a stretch at all to see that קָטָןwould include the poor. Are you saying that Priests, Scribes, Levites, "regular" people and slaves enjoyed equity? or that the law pushed for equity? Life was different than today, and so the extremes of poverty and wealth were not as large, but they were there, as far as I can tell they were designed to be there. Without any shadow of a doubt the whole idea is heavily influenced towards taking care of the poor, but not legislating the poor out of existence. Deuteronomy doesn't say "give the sheaf, olives, or grapes to the priests so they can dole them out to the poor as they see fit after taking their cut." It says leave your sheaf, olives and grapes for those who need it because that is what a decent human being would do. (I am of course paraphrasing.) We are supposed to be generous and care for the poor, not rely on the state. I do not see the link between equity and justice that you are advocating for. The social systems were designed to maintain status, literally making any concept of equity (which I would appreciate a scriptural reference for) not feasible.
if we had a law telling you to leave some of your income out on your lawn for homeless people, you wouldn't cry about it any less than tax-funded welfare.
@joshridinger3407 if I understand you correctly, you are incorrect. I advocate for just such a law in most conversations. The solution to the problem, any problem, is keeping the state from being involved.
@@ronjones1414 laws involve the state by definition
@joshridinger3407 you are correct. Which is why I would advocate for the law. If the law says leave 5 dollars on your lawn for the homeless, the homeless would get 5 of my dollars to perpetuate their homelessness.
If the law says give the state 5 dollars for the homeless, the homeless might get a penny to perpetuate their homelessness, and someone in the state would get a new yacht.
@@ronjones1414 so do you meanyou advocate against such laws? is english not your first language?
Dan, I’m sure you will see this comment & be very eager to drop all you are doing to respond. What do you mean by “right wing authoritarianism?”
It means authoritarianism that comes from the right-wing side of the political spectrum.
The problem here is that Prager is talking about Justice and the in the video above the speaker does not actually define social justice, instead he says social justice is about creating a more just society. Would not in fact the Biblical meaning of Justice give a more just society? Of course it would. So the video continues that social justice is about making it so ones income does not affect how much access they have to resources and to Justice. You see that social justice is in fact socialism where the state gives to all the same things. Of course that has and can never happen but no one ever said social justice was practical. It is simply a euphemism for whatever good things one wants and they call it social justice. That is why Prager is right social justice is the opposite of justice. Even in the video after the socialism expressed he says after the resources "and to justice". minute 4:13 Then he goes on to talk about charity, which a lot of people mean when they say social justice, only we already had the word charity and we really did not need it to be redefined as social justice. Any modifier on the word Justice devalues the meaning of Justice!
you say social justice is merely a euphemism for what one considers good. that's only true in the sense that that is what justice is. to aristocrats, justice is the maximization of their wealth and power over the lowly. to the lowly, justice is the opposite.
@@joshridinger3407 No I said social justice is socialism. I would really like to see your source for saying: "to aristocrats, justice is the maximization of their wealth and power over the lowly." Pretty sure none would say that because even aristocrats use the justice of the legal system. Nor do I see any evidence that the "lowly" think the opposite meaning the minimization of the wealth and power of the wealthy.
@Zipd100 if you just define justice as whatever the legal system says, then it's not inherently contradicted by 'social justice' or 'socialism'.
and yes, that's how the wealthy and powerful define justice. that's the only way you get a definition of justice that is an antonym of 'equity'.
@@joshridinger3407
"Would not in fact the Biblical meaning of Justice give a more just society? Of course, it would."
A society in which slavery was condoned? In which women were treated as second class human beings?
@mendez704 i don't understand why you're attributing that quote to me, but i think most people sympathetic to biblical morality would consider slavery and patriarchy to be features, not bugs.
This guy is a classic sophist. He’ll pick apart technicalities in the fragments of what’s being said, throw in some massaged definitions of terms, parade his general biblical knowledge with references he knows you won’t look up and pretends to be able to speak authoritatively for the founders. The mutual exclusivity of equity and justice is reasonable and logical. Discuss the point without the sophistry.
do you have an actual argument?
Your understanding of social justice is poor. It sounds like you believe the rhetoric over the actions of the social justice warriors. But I would agree with you that no one is to be denied justice and we should care for the poor.
This from a guy who believes Joseph Smith was a prophet
What video did he state that in? Don't merely say he's a member of that particular church. That doesn't mean he believes any particular thing.
Dan is obviously not familiar with the words of the founders themselves. The sophistry in this video is appalling
What? The founders were not shy in their criticisms of religion and how it should kept out of government