Here's something I thought about. When you were talking about the Phoenix vs Bahamut fight you suggested that Clive might be able to transform into Phoenix and Ifrit at this point Which didn't sound right to me because if the working theory is that Phoenix + Ifrit = Diablos(?) Then you could assume that Clive would from then on be transforming into that lost Eikon. However, what if the lost Eikon was actually split into Three different pieces not two. Similar to the Pokemon Gen 5 Legendaries Reshiram and Zekrom that are said to be split from the same entity, there was a 3rd one that was a "husk" of its former self. What if that's the case here with Typhon? We know Typhon is an Eikon v Eikon level battle which so far has been EXCLUSIVLY for Eikons and not other large monsters and shots from the music video Show Typhon is pined to the wall(reality warping?) by Ramuhs Staff and is in like a sleeping state and looks a lot like a husk. In that shot if you compare Typhon to the Lost Eikon image from the Ambition trailer you can actually see it shares a lot of design elements with that creature, such as the lack of legs, the spikes near the elbows, the large sharp nails on the fingers, the general hair style and the VASTLY more human like appearance of the torso compared to say Ifirt. If typhon is also a part of Diablos(?) then it would explain a hypothetical situation where clive can be both phoenix and ifrit without turning back into the original form. i still think other things are more likely than Clive inheriting ifirt but writing this down im almost 100% convinced if the Eikon Split is true then Typhon is almost certainty another piece of it.
Yeah, I agree. Typhon is the lost Eikon. As he's been shown off as an Eikon during the state of play. However, I do think Clive will be able to turn into Phoenix. Can the Phoenix vs bahmut fight was the are take leads to the Ifrit vs bahmut fight. Also, there's 3 different Phoenix fights. It's hard me to imagine you playing as Joshua 3 different times. I really think you only play as Joshua during that brief moment we he loses control
Not totally discarding the possibility that the Archduke had an illegitimate kid somewhere, but ain't that extremely dangerous for any ruler of Rosaria to have bastards since Pheonix can presumably appear at random in the bloodline ? 😅 Feels like a high risk to see the eikon slip away and leave the grasp of Rosarian power forever by creating other branches of the family. Great video, anyway. Thanks. 😄
That is true that it could've been a risk if Joshua was assassinated. Alternatively the new phoenix dominant could've been planned just in case Joshua did die young. Really once all the direct heirs to a king/duke die it can get really messy really fast so there could be a lot of different ways they could write in Phoenix's next dominant if Joshua really is dead.
@@thalwegg6535 well I suppose anything is possible regarding Clive's father since his marriage with duchess Anabella was very likely political and not based on feelings or anything, so he might had a real lover somewhere. But it's just, you know, if you leave bastards behind you end up in a few generations with commoners being related to the ruling family without even knowing it and that could be a huge problem with their dominants system. 😅
@@Oleus Yeah for sure. But I do have to wonder how phoenix is passed on and if maybe they do have a backup just in case Joshua dies. Like surely you have to plan for that when the phoenix dominant is basically always the Archduke right? That said it doesn't even have to be a bastard, could be a cousin or something if the Duke had a brother or sister who also had kids.
It might just be that the Phoenix vs Bahamut fight just means that Joshua is not dead. At 18:30 in the relation tree it shows Joshua as 'believed dead' which is a pretty huge give away. On the other hand I think it might be wrong because that would be a massive spoiler and CBU3 tends to not spoil.
I’m going to do reply with points here, don’t mind me lol i will try to be concise 2:39 I really think we may be playing as other dominants, especially after getting pretty far into XIV and only bc it’s the same team. We play as other characters a lot in that game, so I hope we will here too! 3:43 I think and hope they will, I figure these “lost areas” will be included in the 4 zones. Not getting there by foot though, I think. 4:42 agreed, 1 big chunk. 5:11 I went back and checked too! Lol crystals shown here that weren’t in the pax map, confirmed. 6:06 loved the crystal use as some show don’t tell world building. Nice. 6:10 totally missed the troll lmao. 7:37 the halos I’ve been so excited to learn about 10:08 agreed I think there will be at least one surprise Eikon, hoping for maybe 1-3, but realistically 1 11:41 someone did a cool little what we saw 2020/ what we see here comparison of this same area, presumably. It was neat. 15:31 since I can’t tell if that guy in the front is Cid or not…. Either way I think this is a grave…. 15:55 I absolutely read all of these! Good to see we will have nice little lore nuggets 23:16 oh shit, I didn’t notice shiva there, I knew she was supposed to be via cutscene but not from in game footage. Nice. 23:44 this is cool, he is the first and only enemy I’ve seen so far that can party our magic, it doesn’t even seem to do any chip damage either. 25:48 I’m of the kind Joshua is not dead and will somehow show up at key moments. I think he has been stuck as Phoenix ever since his first transformation 29:06 that was great dude! These have been fun and thoroughly keeping me busy sleuthing along while I wait to play, great job, really well done 😁
Don’t you think the Joshua we meet in the volcano (who stands ominously and lights on fire when Clive gets close) is actually just the intro to the Liquid Flame boss fight, which we know is a shape shifting fire monster?
Damn, you missed that for the renown section one of the patrons whisper chat options is ask what's happened in the past 5 years. This is clear that Clive is separated from the hideaway for the second time skip, and that this is most likely his first time back. Or at their new location. Personally it seems like they have set a port base in Waleod, but I could be going crazy. To expand on this, bet ya 50 bucks the scene right before this is Clive and Torgal on a boat docking at this new base. Based on the geography, this could he off the coast of the iron kingdom, or rosaria, one of the only locations with snowy mountain peaks.
Yeah I remember reading what you were talking about but I guess i didnt internalize the implications. I would say yeah that basically confirms that Clive is off doing his own thing for 5 years before that scene and probably that in that time the hideaway moved their base of operations. This does beg the question of what Clive has been doing. Honestly lately ive been thinking that maybe clive spend 5 years in Rosaria when they liberate it. Then during the time skip Waloed takes out the empires mother crystal. As for where this might be if it's right after the 5 year time skip id be kinda surprised if it's Waloed just because we know we don't go there until after level 30. It's possible, but i think the time skip happens earlier. Instead my mind is going to Rosaria as if Clive liberated it he might would likely make the nation open and safe for the branded.
I think Clive will some how be able to turn into different dominance. Like, he already uses every dominance power. Also, there's 3 different Phoenix fights. There's Phoenix vs Phoenix. Phoenix vs bahmut and Phoenix vs Ifrit.
I was waiting for your video on this!! Gotta grab some popcorn. Thanks for this. These aren't really spoilers imo tho, they are provided from the trailers and promotion and all we are doing is just theorycrafting on what is going on
Yeah I agree, but I've talked to more than a few people who felt that they showed too much and so just want to throw the disclaimer out there. Especially with the lore screens that they showed that really go beyond theory crafting and into spoilers for the first couple hours of the game (which obviously the devs are okay with).
@@thalwegg6535 great video btw, i disagreed with some of the theories towards the end but your analysis and critical thinking skills are unmatched. you leave no stone unturned and i’m glad !
My theory is that both Clive and Joshua who is the Hooded man can transform into both Ifrit and Phoenix since it could be that there was one Eikon of Fire (see mural) that split into 2
It is possible that maybe the two eikons stem from one progenitor eikon. It does make me wonder though why Clive was skipped in the first place and what he would have to do in order to control both at once.
@@thanashs oh God that's a hard question lol. My opinion is that it being Joshua is almost too predictable. My favorite idea is that he might be in Clives head, but it did seem like Cid saw him. Then there's the possibility that maybe he's some clone of Clive or something way out there like that. Or the more boring answer that it's just an ancient who somehow has managed to live for centuries. TL:DR i really don't know lol, which is good
@@thalwegg6535 I know being Joshua seems too predictable but why bother hide a character which we won't recognise ? I also think that in order to have an emotional impact in the story the main villain should be Joshua or someone very important... then there's the logo Ifrit vs Phoenix and what that means .. pfff 2 months left i cat wait, your videos are amazing btw thanks for your work :)
@@thanashs That is a good question, but they could give him that hood as a red herring just so we even ask that question in the first place. Plus it looks kinda cool lol. But I agree, June can't come fast enough!
The only reason I don’t think the last Phoenix theory is correct is because Clive sees Joshua again. But for the bastard child theory, the only way I see that working out is from what we know the mother betrayed Clive and his family, so if gives birth to a new hire. But that brings up if she could do that from the family line. Also the feather that Clive holds in the opening thing really makes me think it’s a Memento from Joshua. For what I think happens in that fight Clive actually loses to dion and begins to die but is saved by the feather and granting him Phoenix (could be the scene of Clive blocking the megaflare deep inside the flower) a low chance but could be the mural being a combination of Phoenix and ifrit
He does see joshua again in the volcano as we know, however something really fishy is going on as its an older Clive with a young Joshua. So for that reason I don't like the idea of Joshua just being alive outright. Maybe phoenix is keeping his soul alive and never actually moves on? In that scene it's hard to tell. I also am not a huge fan on Clive turning into phoenix idea just because it kinda goes against the established lore of Clive not being chosen by Phoenix in the first place, so theyd have to write in a way for it to all make sense. Meanwhile if there is a bastard, or sibling, or cousin, the story almost writes itself without needing to explain away the contradiction. To me it seems like the natural choice, but then again final fantasy has never been known to be entirely predictable.
@@thalwegg6535 yep that's definitely possible, it just seems weird to add another character you control for one scene out of nowhere, so to me either Joshua doing weird phoenix rebirth thing or we are getting some Clive is adopted shenanigans (very likely not true).
@@thalwegg6535 Well, apparently "a 2nd Eikon of Fire" is also supposedly a contradiction of lore from the perspective of the people in the story itself, so having contradictions is all ready a possibility we should consider. Given how we have very little understanding of the story still, I don't see it as impossible for Ifrit and Pheonix to merge as a single person. It might just be what the mural is representing. I think it's likely that the Bahamut fight starts with Clive as Pheonix and then transitions to them landing on the big flower continuing the fight as Ifrit.
Oh yay, I’m gonna comment as I watch, I knew this was coming and I was ready. D’ya know when I said that about Clive being a bastard as a theory, somehow I didn’t know he was one, confirmed, already. I must have missed that lmao. It’s almost like I’m absorbing as much info as I can, but replacing it too quickly, so I end up knowing nothing at all. take that future me, you’ll be in for a surprise despite your considerable efforts! Haha. Thanks for the vid man.
Man this video was incredible your ideas are really good and the fact that most of them are rigth make them even better Also really excited for the you’re video on the main theme since the song is really good and it’s made by the band that made the op for chainsaw man
I actually think the Phoenix vs bahamut fight takes place when the emperial army attacks rosaria and that they bring bahamuts dominant as back up just in case they have to fight Phoenix and when he goes outta control bahamut just comes to step in to stop him thus having this current boss battle we are seeing
I just think that it's hard to explain that happening early, especially with the giant flower thing. Then there's the fact we know that there's an ifrit/bahamut and phoenix/ifrit fight as well and suddenly it seems excessive. Plus both phoenix and Ifrit seem more in control of their eikons since theyre using more moves and are generally more fluid than what we see earlier in the game. That said I'm not saying it's totally impossible, just very unlikely in my opinion.
Referring to the Bahamut vs Phoenix fight footage, I’m pretty sure that flower is Drake’s Head, the Sanbrequian mothercrystal. My guess that the Empire’s “divine ambition” has something to do with this, there’s a bunch of weird implications with the Goddess they worship and some of their murals
thank you for the video!!! very juicy i was so mad bc no one was talking about the phoenix vs bahamut fight LMAO, and ugh it's so confusing!! do you think it's possible that clive inherited phoenix once joshua died? and he just somehow didn't know about it? maybe that's too crazy lmao, but yeah i think joshua is not alive, at least not in the traditional sense? i feel like he'll be some kind of... ghost, for lack of a better word, in any case, do we have any info as to if a dominant can have more than one eikon? great video btw!! very enjoyable as always
It is possible that Clive inherits it or that Joshua is a ghost for sure. I'm just more preferential to a new dominant for phoenix popping up because of the 18 year time skip and the fact that phoenix skipped over Clive in the first place so it's the cleanest explanation. But just because it's the cleanest doesnt mean that that's what they'll choose! Final Fantasy as a franchise has been known to take some wild turns, so I'm expecting almost anything.
Hmm, maybe. But saying "this side of the belt" makes more sense in my head than "this side of the veldt". Tbh I heard it and first thing my mind went to was that weird path that goes from Rosaria to the Dominion, so maybe I heard what I wanted to hear lol.
Remember where it showed Jashua touch Clive in that trailer, remember Clive have the ability to absorb dominate powers, what if you was wrong about the Phoenix instead he absorb Joshua powers in the game when it appears Joshua could be healing Clive or something and Clive doesn't know he absorb his brother powers, then some where down that road transform into the Phoenix!? Think on it!
I agree with your assessment that the Ifrit-Bahamut fight is probably taking place at the Crystaline Dominion, but like you yourself point out, the lack of the expected Mother Crystal in the background of the Phoenix-Bahamut fight leaves me skeptical. So what do you consider about the possibility that the Phoenix-Bahamut fight and the Ifrit-Bahamut fight aren't occurring around the same time? The timeline could be something like: Phoenix-Bahamut fight during the flashback, immediately followed by the Phoenix-Ifrit fight, and then the Ifrit-Bahamut fight occurs much later in the game. Of course, this theory would have to explain why both fights with Bahamut take place near the same giant flower thing, and I have two explanations for that. Either, this flower is something that can be summoned in multiple locations, or, they aren't the same flower. I'll start with the first explanation since it's simpler to explain, though even I find it to be the less convincing of the two possibilities. So it could be that the giant flower is some kind of power of either Bahamut or Sanbreque itself, perhaps related to their "Goddess". In this case, it would make it very possible that the flower is something that can be summoned in multiple spots based on where Bahamut or Sanbreque choose to summon it. Again, I find this the less convincing of the two possibilities. Instead, I am more drawn to the possibility that these aren't the same flowers we see. Two explore what I mean, we have to ask the question: what are these flowers in the first place. Of course, I have no actual idea of the truth, but my current theory is that these flowers are what happens when a Mothercrystal is either "activated" or in the process of being destroyed. Regardless of which of the two it is, the process results in the crystal sprouting this giant flower, either from the crystal itself or just somewhere nearby. You point out that the Phoenix-Bahamut fight is taking place on some burning island, or peninsula, but also that if this is the Crystalline Dominion then we're seemingly missing Drake's Tail in the background. What if this fight isn't taking place in the Crystalline Dominion, but instead in the Iron Kingdom, and the burning Island we see is either the site of an "activated" Drake's Head, or another Mothercrystal that was destroyed in the past during this war? This possibility also potentially answers some other questions. For one, the fight between Phoenix and Bahamut seems to be having some pretty devastating effects on the island where the fight is taking place, given all of the burning villages at the base of the flower. If this is the Iron Kingdom, then maybe this fight where two foreign powers used their magic kaiju people to wreak havoc within their land is the explanation as to why the Iron Kingdom hates magic and Dominants so much in the present. Next, the flower representing a Mothercrystal being "activated" or destroyed could exlain that shot of Bahamut we very briefly saw in the Revenge trailer. Bahamut seemed to be flying above some kind of rocky wasteland with crystals jutting out of the place. Where is this empty waste supposed to be? Maybe it's the result of the Crystalline Dominion being turned into a deadland by the blight after Bahamut's fight with Ifrit. I say all of this to suggest that whatever these flowers are is directly tied to the formation of the blighted zones in the world. Lastly, this explanation could possibly explain how Clive and co are enemies with Barnabas when both parties share the common goal of destroying Mothercrystals. I keep saying that the flowers could possibly represent a Mothercrystal being "activated" in quotes in addition to saying it may just be them getting destroyed. What I mean by "activated" was what I touched upon in the prior paragraph, that an activated Mothercrystal is what causes the flowers to sprout, leading to the formation of deadlands through the spread of the blight. While this does lead to the destruction of a Mothercrystal, it does so in a very destructive way. Clive and co may have instead found a more safe way to destroy Mothercrystals that don't lead to the additional spread of the Blight. In this case, both Clive's faction and Barnabas's could have the same "goal" but still have conflicting ways of achieving it. Clive and co are trying to peacefully destroy the crystals in order to stop the spread of further blight and destruction, while Barnabas is purposefully trying to activate the crystals in order to allow the blight to consume the land. So this is my longwinded theory on what could possibly happening regarding Bahamut's fights with Phoenix and Ifrit repectively. Sorry for my comment being so long, I hope it was at least an interesting read. Also, I fully recognize that there are very likely things I have overlooked in the formation of my theories, but I figure if anyone has the knowledge to point them out it'd be you. Lastly, thank you for making these videos, I've found them greatly informative and enjoyable; you've raised my already considerably high hype even further than I thought it could ever go!
Thank you for a well thought out response! To give my 2 cents on it the main reason I would bet that the bahamut/phoenix fight takes place later is actually gameplay related. This gameplay can be broken into two separate parts. First, from the perspective of a game and level designer I doubt they would want to do two phoenix on rail shooters back to back as it can make the gameplay feel stale and repetitive. At the end of the day the eikon fights are kinda gimmicky (which isnt always a bad thing) and thus should be given in smaller doses I think to prevent people from getting bored with it. Secondly, phoenix in the bahamut fight is doing a lot more than the phoenix in the ifrit fight. What i mean by that is that in the ifrit fight youre really only shooting your gun, there's no lock on mechanic and while there is dodging there is nothing like the dodging you have to do in bahamut fight. To me this means that at a minimum the bahamut fight would have to take place after the ifrit fight. Now this could be immediately after potentially, but we know that Joshua actually loses against ifrit and is assumed dead. We even saw phoenix's hp go to 0 in the trailers so us losing the fight I think is a given. As for why the party doesnt team up with barnabus despite having similar goals, well I think that can almost entirely be pinned on Cid. In the press preview footage we saw the interaction between benedikta and Cid and it's very clear that Cid wants absolutely nothign to do with Barnabus and doesnt trust him. He would assumedly pass this distrust onto Clive and Jilll and this dynamic will probably lead to the conflict between us and barnabus. Like you said in your post I think ultimately we will have similar goals for entirely different reasons. I'm glad youve enjoyed my videos and that theyve inspired you to form your own theories and thank you for sharing them with me. Not too much longer and we can put our theories to the test!
@@thalwegg6535 Hey, so I was coming back to double check some of the stuff you and I can't believe I never responded to say "thank you". I could have sworn I did, but it's been a hectic month for me so I guess I slipped up on getting around to it. Anyway, thank you for having taken the time to respond to such a long message, and sorry for taking so to get around to saying it!
I like how Ramuh’s beard is tucked inside his robes making it also look like chest hair.
Here's something I thought about. When you were talking about the Phoenix vs Bahamut fight you suggested that Clive might be able to transform into Phoenix and Ifrit at this point Which didn't sound right to me because if the working theory is that Phoenix + Ifrit = Diablos(?) Then you could assume that Clive would from then on be transforming into that lost Eikon.
However, what if the lost Eikon was actually split into Three different pieces not two. Similar to the Pokemon Gen 5 Legendaries Reshiram and Zekrom that are said to be split from the same entity, there was a 3rd one that was a "husk" of its former self. What if that's the case here with Typhon? We know Typhon is an Eikon v Eikon level battle which so far has been EXCLUSIVLY for Eikons and not other large monsters and shots from the music video Show Typhon is pined to the wall(reality warping?) by Ramuhs Staff and is in like a sleeping state and looks a lot like a husk.
In that shot if you compare Typhon to the Lost Eikon image from the Ambition trailer you can actually see it shares a lot of design elements with that creature, such as the lack of legs, the spikes near the elbows, the large sharp nails on the fingers, the general hair style and the VASTLY more human like appearance of the torso compared to say Ifirt. If typhon is also a part of Diablos(?) then it would explain a hypothetical situation where clive can be both phoenix and ifrit without turning back into the original form.
i still think other things are more likely than Clive inheriting ifirt but writing this down im almost 100% convinced if the Eikon Split is true then Typhon is almost certainty another piece of it.
Yeah, I agree. Typhon is the lost Eikon. As he's been shown off as an Eikon during the state of play. However, I do think Clive will be able to turn into Phoenix. Can the Phoenix vs bahmut fight was the are take leads to the Ifrit vs bahmut fight.
Also, there's 3 different Phoenix fights. It's hard me to imagine you playing as Joshua 3 different times. I really think you only play as Joshua during that brief moment we he loses control
Not totally discarding the possibility that the Archduke had an illegitimate kid somewhere, but ain't that extremely dangerous for any ruler of Rosaria to have bastards since Pheonix can presumably appear at random in the bloodline ? 😅
Feels like a high risk to see the eikon slip away and leave the grasp of Rosarian power forever by creating other branches of the family.
Great video, anyway. Thanks. 😄
That is true that it could've been a risk if Joshua was assassinated. Alternatively the new phoenix dominant could've been planned just in case Joshua did die young. Really once all the direct heirs to a king/duke die it can get really messy really fast so there could be a lot of different ways they could write in Phoenix's next dominant if Joshua really is dead.
@@thalwegg6535 well I suppose anything is possible regarding Clive's father since his marriage with duchess Anabella was very likely political and not based on feelings or anything, so he might had a real lover somewhere. But it's just, you know, if you leave bastards behind you end up in a few generations with commoners being related to the ruling family without even knowing it and that could be a huge problem with their dominants system. 😅
@@Oleus Yeah for sure. But I do have to wonder how phoenix is passed on and if maybe they do have a backup just in case Joshua dies. Like surely you have to plan for that when the phoenix dominant is basically always the Archduke right?
That said it doesn't even have to be a bastard, could be a cousin or something if the Duke had a brother or sister who also had kids.
It might just be that the Phoenix vs Bahamut fight just means that Joshua is not dead. At 18:30 in the relation tree it shows Joshua as 'believed dead' which is a pretty huge give away. On the other hand I think it might be wrong because that would be a massive spoiler and CBU3 tends to not spoil.
I’m going to do reply with points here, don’t mind me lol i will try to be concise
2:39 I really think we may be playing as other dominants, especially after getting pretty far into XIV and only bc it’s the same team. We play as other characters a lot in that game, so I hope we will here too!
3:43 I think and hope they will, I figure these “lost areas” will be included in the 4 zones. Not getting there by foot though, I think.
4:42 agreed, 1 big chunk.
5:11 I went back and checked too! Lol crystals shown here that weren’t in the pax map, confirmed.
6:06 loved the crystal use as some show don’t tell world building. Nice.
6:10 totally missed the troll lmao.
7:37 the halos I’ve been so excited to learn about
10:08 agreed I think there will be at least one surprise Eikon, hoping for maybe 1-3, but realistically 1
11:41 someone did a cool little what we saw 2020/ what we see here comparison of this same area, presumably. It was neat.
15:31 since I can’t tell if that guy in the front is Cid or not…. Either way I think this is a grave….
15:55 I absolutely read all of these! Good to see we will have nice little lore nuggets
23:16 oh shit, I didn’t notice shiva there, I knew she was supposed to be via cutscene but not from in game footage. Nice.
23:44 this is cool, he is the first and only enemy I’ve seen so far that can party our magic, it doesn’t even seem to do any chip damage either.
25:48 I’m of the kind Joshua is not dead and will somehow show up at key moments. I think he has been stuck as Phoenix ever since his first transformation
29:06 that was great dude! These have been fun and thoroughly keeping me busy sleuthing along while I wait to play, great job, really well done 😁
Don’t you think the Joshua we meet in the volcano (who stands ominously and lights on fire when Clive gets close) is actually just the intro to the Liquid Flame boss fight, which we know is a shape shifting fire monster?
That is a possibility!
Damn, you missed that for the renown section one of the patrons whisper chat options is ask what's happened in the past 5 years. This is clear that Clive is separated from the hideaway for the second time skip, and that this is most likely his first time back. Or at their new location. Personally it seems like they have set a port base in Waleod, but I could be going crazy.
To expand on this, bet ya 50 bucks the scene right before this is Clive and Torgal on a boat docking at this new base. Based on the geography, this could he off the coast of the iron kingdom, or rosaria, one of the only locations with snowy mountain peaks.
Yeah I remember reading what you were talking about but I guess i didnt internalize the implications. I would say yeah that basically confirms that Clive is off doing his own thing for 5 years before that scene and probably that in that time the hideaway moved their base of operations. This does beg the question of what Clive has been doing. Honestly lately ive been thinking that maybe clive spend 5 years in Rosaria when they liberate it. Then during the time skip Waloed takes out the empires mother crystal.
As for where this might be if it's right after the 5 year time skip id be kinda surprised if it's Waloed just because we know we don't go there until after level 30. It's possible, but i think the time skip happens earlier. Instead my mind is going to Rosaria as if Clive liberated it he might would likely make the nation open and safe for the branded.
20:15 SHIVAS DOMINANT
AND ONLY THE DOMINANT
remember joshua is phoenix, he may die in the start of the game but be reborn later.
For sure! I'm honestly expecting something funky to be going on with Phoenix given the volcano scene that we've also seen.
I think Clive will some how be able to turn into different dominance.
Like, he already uses every dominance power. Also, there's 3 different Phoenix fights. There's Phoenix vs Phoenix. Phoenix vs bahmut and Phoenix vs Ifrit.
I was waiting for your video on this!! Gotta grab some popcorn. Thanks for this. These aren't really spoilers imo tho, they are provided from the trailers and promotion and all we are doing is just theorycrafting on what is going on
Yeah I agree, but I've talked to more than a few people who felt that they showed too much and so just want to throw the disclaimer out there. Especially with the lore screens that they showed that really go beyond theory crafting and into spoilers for the first couple hours of the game (which obviously the devs are okay with).
@@thalwegg6535 great video btw, i disagreed with some of the theories towards the end but your analysis and critical thinking skills are unmatched. you leave no stone unturned and i’m glad !
I get the feeling that the mysterious stranger is dion and the mid is cids and bendictas child
My theory is that both Clive and Joshua who is the Hooded man can transform into both Ifrit and Phoenix since it could be that there was one Eikon of Fire (see mural) that split into 2
It is possible that maybe the two eikons stem from one progenitor eikon. It does make me wonder though why Clive was skipped in the first place and what he would have to do in order to control both at once.
@@thalwegg6535 Who do you believe is the Hooded man ?
@@thanashs oh God that's a hard question lol. My opinion is that it being Joshua is almost too predictable. My favorite idea is that he might be in Clives head, but it did seem like Cid saw him. Then there's the possibility that maybe he's some clone of Clive or something way out there like that. Or the more boring answer that it's just an ancient who somehow has managed to live for centuries.
TL:DR i really don't know lol, which is good
@@thalwegg6535 I know being Joshua seems too predictable but why bother hide a character which we won't recognise ? I also think that in order to have an emotional impact in the story the main villain should be Joshua or someone very important... then there's the logo Ifrit vs Phoenix and what that means .. pfff 2 months left i cat wait, your videos are amazing btw thanks for your work :)
@@thanashs That is a good question, but they could give him that hood as a red herring just so we even ask that question in the first place. Plus it looks kinda cool lol.
But I agree, June can't come fast enough!
The only reason I don’t think the last Phoenix theory is correct is because Clive sees Joshua again. But for the bastard child theory, the only way I see that working out is from what we know the mother betrayed Clive and his family, so if gives birth to a new hire. But that brings up if she could do that from the family line. Also the feather that Clive holds in the opening thing really makes me think it’s a Memento from Joshua. For what I think happens in that fight Clive actually loses to dion and begins to die but is saved by the feather and granting him Phoenix (could be the scene of Clive blocking the megaflare deep inside the flower) a low chance but could be the mural being a combination of Phoenix and ifrit
He does see joshua again in the volcano as we know, however something really fishy is going on as its an older Clive with a young Joshua. So for that reason I don't like the idea of Joshua just being alive outright. Maybe phoenix is keeping his soul alive and never actually moves on? In that scene it's hard to tell. I also am not a huge fan on Clive turning into phoenix idea just because it kinda goes against the established lore of Clive not being chosen by Phoenix in the first place, so theyd have to write in a way for it to all make sense. Meanwhile if there is a bastard, or sibling, or cousin, the story almost writes itself without needing to explain away the contradiction. To me it seems like the natural choice, but then again final fantasy has never been known to be entirely predictable.
@@thalwegg6535 yep that's definitely possible, it just seems weird to add another character you control for one scene out of nowhere, so to me either Joshua doing weird phoenix rebirth thing or we are getting some Clive is adopted shenanigans (very likely not true).
@@thalwegg6535 Well, apparently "a 2nd Eikon of Fire" is also supposedly a contradiction of lore from the perspective of the people in the story itself, so having contradictions is all ready a possibility we should consider. Given how we have very little understanding of the story still, I don't see it as impossible for Ifrit and Pheonix to merge as a single person. It might just be what the mural is representing. I think it's likely that the Bahamut fight starts with Clive as Pheonix and then transitions to them landing on the big flower continuing the fight as Ifrit.
Oh yay, I’m gonna comment as I watch, I knew this was coming and I was ready. D’ya know when I said that about Clive being a bastard as a theory, somehow I didn’t know he was one, confirmed, already. I must have missed that lmao. It’s almost like I’m absorbing as much info as I can, but replacing it too quickly, so I end up knowing nothing at all. take that future me, you’ll be in for a surprise despite your considerable efforts! Haha. Thanks for the vid man.
Man this video was incredible your ideas are really good and the fact that most of them are rigth make them even better
Also really excited for the you’re video on the main theme since the song is really good and it’s made by the band that made the op for chainsaw man
Thank you!
I actually think the Phoenix vs bahamut fight takes place when the emperial army attacks rosaria and that they bring bahamuts dominant as back up just in case they have to fight Phoenix and when he goes outta control bahamut just comes to step in to stop him thus having this current boss battle we are seeing
I just think that it's hard to explain that happening early, especially with the giant flower thing. Then there's the fact we know that there's an ifrit/bahamut and phoenix/ifrit fight as well and suddenly it seems excessive. Plus both phoenix and Ifrit seem more in control of their eikons since theyre using more moves and are generally more fluid than what we see earlier in the game.
That said I'm not saying it's totally impossible, just very unlikely in my opinion.
@Thalwegg I can definitely see that and it honestly makes more sense, regardless I'm super hype for that fight!
@@thegodkingkay2326 Same! Plus I keep thinking if they're showing this what haven't they shown. Super exciting!
@@thalwegg6535 hopefully you do a playthrough of it on your channel, I'll definitely give it a watch!
Referring to the Bahamut vs Phoenix fight footage, I’m pretty sure that flower is Drake’s Head, the Sanbrequian mothercrystal. My guess that the Empire’s “divine ambition” has something to do with this, there’s a bunch of weird implications with the Goddess they worship and some of their murals
Interestingly go check out the video I just posted. I'm fairly sure right now that it's in the crystalline dominion and I explain why in that video.
🎉 I was waiting for your vídeo 🎉
I trust in Yoshi-P
Me too
After watching this new state of play, do you still think Dion (Bahamut) fight takes place after Barnabas (Odin) fight?
Not him, but full yes. I think phoenix is the kid at the throne in sanbreque
what interest me the most is joshua earring is it the same earring clive wears ?
if it the same one then that gives away that joshua is dead...
Good point i wish i could purchase those earrings in real life 😂
thank you for the video!!! very juicy
i was so mad bc no one was talking about the phoenix vs bahamut fight LMAO, and ugh it's so confusing!! do you think it's possible that clive inherited phoenix once joshua died? and he just somehow didn't know about it? maybe that's too crazy lmao, but yeah i think joshua is not alive, at least not in the traditional sense? i feel like he'll be some kind of... ghost, for lack of a better word, in any case, do we have any info as to if a dominant can have more than one eikon?
great video btw!! very enjoyable as always
It is possible that Clive inherits it or that Joshua is a ghost for sure. I'm just more preferential to a new dominant for phoenix popping up because of the 18 year time skip and the fact that phoenix skipped over Clive in the first place so it's the cleanest explanation. But just because it's the cleanest doesnt mean that that's what they'll choose! Final Fantasy as a franchise has been known to take some wild turns, so I'm expecting almost anything.
don't think so, what about other dominants? he doesn't seem to take absorb completely their power, at least not all dominants.
Did Cid say '"Belt"?
I thought I heard "Veldt" like the location in FF6.
Hmm, maybe. But saying "this side of the belt" makes more sense in my head than "this side of the veldt". Tbh I heard it and first thing my mind went to was that weird path that goes from Rosaria to the Dominion, so maybe I heard what I wanted to hear lol.
Remember where it showed Jashua touch Clive in that trailer, remember Clive have the ability to absorb dominate powers, what if you was wrong about the Phoenix instead he absorb Joshua powers in the game when it appears Joshua could be healing Clive or something and Clive doesn't know he absorb his brother powers, then some where down that road transform into the Phoenix!?
Think on it!
I've been waiting for this!
I agree with your assessment that the Ifrit-Bahamut fight is probably taking place at the Crystaline Dominion, but like you yourself point out, the lack of the expected Mother Crystal in the background of the Phoenix-Bahamut fight leaves me skeptical. So what do you consider about the possibility that the Phoenix-Bahamut fight and the Ifrit-Bahamut fight aren't occurring around the same time?
The timeline could be something like: Phoenix-Bahamut fight during the flashback, immediately followed by the Phoenix-Ifrit fight, and then the Ifrit-Bahamut fight occurs much later in the game. Of course, this theory would have to explain why both fights with Bahamut take place near the same giant flower thing, and I have two explanations for that. Either, this flower is something that can be summoned in multiple locations, or, they aren't the same flower.
I'll start with the first explanation since it's simpler to explain, though even I find it to be the less convincing of the two possibilities. So it could be that the giant flower is some kind of power of either Bahamut or Sanbreque itself, perhaps related to their "Goddess". In this case, it would make it very possible that the flower is something that can be summoned in multiple spots based on where Bahamut or Sanbreque choose to summon it. Again, I find this the less convincing of the two possibilities.
Instead, I am more drawn to the possibility that these aren't the same flowers we see. Two explore what I mean, we have to ask the question: what are these flowers in the first place. Of course, I have no actual idea of the truth, but my current theory is that these flowers are what happens when a Mothercrystal is either "activated" or in the process of being destroyed. Regardless of which of the two it is, the process results in the crystal sprouting this giant flower, either from the crystal itself or just somewhere nearby.
You point out that the Phoenix-Bahamut fight is taking place on some burning island, or peninsula, but also that if this is the Crystalline Dominion then we're seemingly missing Drake's Tail in the background. What if this fight isn't taking place in the Crystalline Dominion, but instead in the Iron Kingdom, and the burning Island we see is either the site of an "activated" Drake's Head, or another Mothercrystal that was destroyed in the past during this war?
This possibility also potentially answers some other questions. For one, the fight between Phoenix and Bahamut seems to be having some pretty devastating effects on the island where the fight is taking place, given all of the burning villages at the base of the flower. If this is the Iron Kingdom, then maybe this fight where two foreign powers used their magic kaiju people to wreak havoc within their land is the explanation as to why the Iron Kingdom hates magic and Dominants so much in the present.
Next, the flower representing a Mothercrystal being "activated" or destroyed could exlain that shot of Bahamut we very briefly saw in the Revenge trailer. Bahamut seemed to be flying above some kind of rocky wasteland with crystals jutting out of the place. Where is this empty waste supposed to be? Maybe it's the result of the Crystalline Dominion being turned into a deadland by the blight after Bahamut's fight with Ifrit. I say all of this to suggest that whatever these flowers are is directly tied to the formation of the blighted zones in the world.
Lastly, this explanation could possibly explain how Clive and co are enemies with Barnabas when both parties share the common goal of destroying Mothercrystals. I keep saying that the flowers could possibly represent a Mothercrystal being "activated" in quotes in addition to saying it may just be them getting destroyed. What I mean by "activated" was what I touched upon in the prior paragraph, that an activated Mothercrystal is what causes the flowers to sprout, leading to the formation of deadlands through the spread of the blight.
While this does lead to the destruction of a Mothercrystal, it does so in a very destructive way. Clive and co may have instead found a more safe way to destroy Mothercrystals that don't lead to the additional spread of the Blight. In this case, both Clive's faction and Barnabas's could have the same "goal" but still have conflicting ways of achieving it. Clive and co are trying to peacefully destroy the crystals in order to stop the spread of further blight and destruction, while Barnabas is purposefully trying to activate the crystals in order to allow the blight to consume the land.
So this is my longwinded theory on what could possibly happening regarding Bahamut's fights with Phoenix and Ifrit repectively. Sorry for my comment being so long, I hope it was at least an interesting read. Also, I fully recognize that there are very likely things I have overlooked in the formation of my theories, but I figure if anyone has the knowledge to point them out it'd be you. Lastly, thank you for making these videos, I've found them greatly informative and enjoyable; you've raised my already considerably high hype even further than I thought it could ever go!
Thank you for a well thought out response!
To give my 2 cents on it the main reason I would bet that the bahamut/phoenix fight takes place later is actually gameplay related. This gameplay can be broken into two separate parts.
First, from the perspective of a game and level designer I doubt they would want to do two phoenix on rail shooters back to back as it can make the gameplay feel stale and repetitive. At the end of the day the eikon fights are kinda gimmicky (which isnt always a bad thing) and thus should be given in smaller doses I think to prevent people from getting bored with it.
Secondly, phoenix in the bahamut fight is doing a lot more than the phoenix in the ifrit fight. What i mean by that is that in the ifrit fight youre really only shooting your gun, there's no lock on mechanic and while there is dodging there is nothing like the dodging you have to do in bahamut fight. To me this means that at a minimum the bahamut fight would have to take place after the ifrit fight. Now this could be immediately after potentially, but we know that Joshua actually loses against ifrit and is assumed dead. We even saw phoenix's hp go to 0 in the trailers so us losing the fight I think is a given.
As for why the party doesnt team up with barnabus despite having similar goals, well I think that can almost entirely be pinned on Cid. In the press preview footage we saw the interaction between benedikta and Cid and it's very clear that Cid wants absolutely nothign to do with Barnabus and doesnt trust him. He would assumedly pass this distrust onto Clive and Jilll and this dynamic will probably lead to the conflict between us and barnabus. Like you said in your post I think ultimately we will have similar goals for entirely different reasons.
I'm glad youve enjoyed my videos and that theyve inspired you to form your own theories and thank you for sharing them with me. Not too much longer and we can put our theories to the test!
@@thalwegg6535 Hey, so I was coming back to double check some of the stuff you and I can't believe I never responded to say "thank you". I could have sworn I did, but it's been a hectic month for me so I guess I slipped up on getting around to it. Anyway, thank you for having taken the time to respond to such a long message, and sorry for taking so to get around to saying it!
Finally!
This video made me subscribe :D
Thank you very much!
maybe Mid is a reincarnation of Joshua? But that would make sense tho lol
Please never stop using Octopath music
Thumbnail is 100% ashley from resident evil 4. Copy and paste.
Mid is already the best girl. Sorry, Jill.