I heard about this time trial "indirect" test a while ago... I've used the zones prescribed by the test for a while, and, for my surprise, I recently done a lab lactate threshold test that confirmed this method is incredibly accurate. I essentially didn't need to change much of my zones after the test, it served more as a confirmation. Great vid, looking forward to watch more of your content!
Generally tempo marathon paces cover quite good the middle of LT1-LT2 interval, as an amateur runner and physiotherapist I prefer this pace from going directly into 95-100% LT2 intensity. My argument to doing this is that slower tempo training is apparently as effective as “threshold” pace (quotes are used because a threshold is a mathematical ideal line so one can just be below or above) and less prone to musculoskeletal issues. For example, 2 x 20 min at marathon pace is quite exhaustive on controlling pH and reuptake lactate, and being secure you’re not generating any excess you will pay further in the week training. And in my experience as useful as half marathon pace when training for 10 k or longer races. I’m actually training for 10k and do 2 x 20 MT once a week, two weeks and then 8 x 1000 10k pace the third week, that covers quite good LT training and race pace in an actual 80/20 method. In the past I used to train faster and my results were poorer and fatiguing: of course may vary from one to another person, but at lest for people over 40 years probably is a good idea to avoid “on threshold” runs, or above 10 k pace except for very little sporadic dosages
This is a good video . . . last time I watched a video explaining this it was an hour long but it was talking about a lot of other stuff as well but short and sweet is better. I cant remember ever getting to a point where I could not talk even at a HR of 183 so maybe my Max HR is higher than I think but because I'm 69 I dont want to try too hard to find out if it's much above 183. But I might try and find out when I'm feeling good.
Nice vid Will. Like the zones system & breakdown. Have been running a 6 zone system for the last few years, very similar to this in fact. Find it so much easier to differentiate target race efforts as well. Keep that great content coming :)
That’s useful thanks. One bit of advice. If you breath a little more between sentences, it will make it easier and smoother when you cut things out as you edit together your clips
Timely video - was just doing one of your 30min hilly tempo runs this morning :) Having spent the last 6-12 months using MAF heart rate I think my legs have got used to moving slowly. Bit of a shock pushing the HR into zone 3 :)
Some more feedback on your threshold test. Running hard for 30 minutes (90 to 95%) is vague and could be deemed leaving more questions than answers. A newbie might think they are at 90% when they are at 65%. That's ok, they are unlikely to end up overtraining but they could also under achieve. An old hand miight be so used to thrashing themselve's into the ground (which I am pretty good at) that their 90 - 95% could actually be 98 to 99% conversly digging themselve's a deeper hole by using this protocol.
It is so easy identify ~experts out here who do not run because all they do is spout on buzz words and tell you to go well past the heart rate most of us can actually carry a pace at ...
Thank you Doc for the nice talking.. very helpful, accurate info, real facts , science, specific numbers , field tests... finally someone that really knows what he's talking about , not just blah blah like most of the running gurus on the web. you really deserve a subscription to your channel! i have a question: i have been running for 3 years , my 10 k pb is around 42 minutes, i average 2-3 runs a week -20-30 km max, but in summer i also practice cycling 4 to 5 hours a week.. Now i'm preparing for a half marathon, and i'm planning to increase my mileage from 25-30 to 40-45 km x week; how much do you think i can improve my endurance performance by doing so ?
Hey, Thanks for your kind words! It's a tricky question to answer without getting a lot more background info. Simply increasing your mileage won't directly correlate to improved fitness. It's all HOW you increase your mileage, assuming you can do so without injury. Start by increasing by 1x easy run per week, and see if you can handle that without getting overly tired.
Really great Video thanks💪🏼 Did you sometimes mix up the 5 Zone and the 3 Zone Model? „Tempo does not feel mich harder then your Zone 2“. I guess there you are refering to the Zone 2 of 5, and not to the Graphic you showed with the 3 Zone model, right?
Thank you for the video. Arthur Lydiard appeared to be a big fan of marathon intensity which he also called aerobic threshold or steady running. I read in one of his books that he favors it to lactate threshold (at least in base training) because it is less demanding on the body and that you can actually increase your lactate threshold from below by doing this steady running. What are you thoughts on this?
I'm a BIG fan of Arthur Lydiard. Especially being a Kiwi. I don't think Lydiard's approach works as well for weekend warriors. His philosophy was built on BIG weekly mileage - I'm sure you've heard of the Lydiard 100-mile weeks. When you're running that kind of miles, it's hard to also include above-threshold intervals. However, your average Steve runner runs less than half a 100-mile week, on average, so I believe there are more effective methods for training such runners.
My only problem with your HR zones is that you use 7 zones and most watches only can handle 5. Therefore, I would need to combine zones. Any suggestions concerning the breakdown?
Make zones 1 - 5 the same as mine except the top of zone 5 would be 150% or whatever. Forget about my zone 6 and 7 because you only really need them for analysis and not prescription. Now, you can use my easy, aerobic, LT1 and LT2 specific zones within the 5 zones on your watch.
I have Vt1, Crosspoint Co2/O2, Vt2 and Vo2Max thresholds, from Ergospirometry. From your explanation, my tempo runs would be between Vt2 and sub VO2MAX points? Or, between Co2/O2 crosspoint and Vt2?
I’d use a little bit below and above the Crossover point. If they drew your cross-over point from a standard Vo2max step test, it'll probably overestimate your actual pace since it would have occurred around 5-6min into the test. If you're doing 1-mile tempo reps, that's fine, but if you're doing a 30-60-minute tempo, your crossover point will be a little below what was reported. Closer to VT1. If they did a submax protocol before the step test, ignore what I just said 😂.
@@drwilloconnor Thank you so much! Thats exactly what was happening with my pace zones in the field pumped up to my HR and RPE: something were overestimated just like you said!
10km threshold is a tough session. Great for race prep, but you'd get a better training stimulus by doing 5x 2km (2min rest) at a slightly faster pace.
Hey, it doesn't make much difference whether you're at the top or the bottom of zone 2. You shouldn't feel like you're pushing during a zone 2 run. You should be able to hold a conversation, if you can't you've gone past your first ventilatory threshold.
The method of determining the lactate threshold is quite subjective and therefore inaccurate. People do not feel the difference between 95% or 90% of 88% of best effort. They may think they do and then train wrong for years.
So the 30 minute test should give threshold pace/hr, is that about 4.0 mmol, so if I'd want to do Bakken double thresholds(2.5 and 3.5 mmol) both should be just under threshold?(one even more so than the other)
@@terpreterin9777 SCIENCE must end in CONCLUSIONS that tell you the impact of experiments/dataset. If you don’t have a discussion on the impact then it’s yap. Have you ever read a single article from any scientific journal of any subject? Clearly not. 🍆🏇 mfer
I heard about this time trial "indirect" test a while ago... I've used the zones prescribed by the test for a while, and, for my surprise, I recently done a lab lactate threshold test that confirmed this method is incredibly accurate.
I essentially didn't need to change much of my zones after the test, it served more as a confirmation. Great vid, looking forward to watch more of your content!
Zone 3 tempo is where most people feel mechanically comfortable running
Generally tempo marathon paces cover quite good the middle of LT1-LT2 interval, as an amateur runner and physiotherapist I prefer this pace from going directly into 95-100% LT2 intensity.
My argument to doing this is that slower tempo training is apparently as effective as “threshold” pace (quotes are used because a threshold is a mathematical ideal line so one can just be below or above) and less prone to musculoskeletal issues.
For example, 2 x 20 min at marathon pace is quite exhaustive on controlling pH and reuptake lactate, and being secure you’re not generating any excess you will pay further in the week training. And in my experience as useful as half marathon pace when training for 10 k or longer races.
I’m actually training for 10k and do 2 x 20 MT once a week, two weeks and then 8 x 1000 10k pace the third week, that covers quite good LT training and race pace in an actual 80/20 method.
In the past I used to train faster and my results were poorer and fatiguing: of course may vary from one to another person, but at lest for people over 40 years probably is a good idea to avoid “on threshold” runs, or above 10 k pace except for very little sporadic dosages
This is a good video . . . last time I watched a video explaining this it was an hour long but it was talking about a lot of other stuff as well but short and sweet is better. I cant remember ever getting to a point where I could not talk even at a HR of 183 so maybe my Max HR is higher than I think but because I'm 69 I dont want to try too hard to find out if it's much above 183. But I might try and find out when I'm feeling good.
Cheers. You might be able to talk but you won't be able to hold a conversation.
Nice vid Will. Like the zones system & breakdown. Have been running a 6 zone system for the last few years, very similar to this in fact. Find it so much easier to differentiate target race efforts as well. Keep that great content coming :)
Cheers, Andy. I used 5 zones for ages but then realised people were getting confused around marathon and half marathon “effort”.
That’s useful thanks. One bit of advice. If you breath a little more between sentences, it will make it easier and smoother when you cut things out as you edit together your clips
Thanks, I'll look into that.
I have seen tempo training described as Zone 3 and LT training as Zone 4
That's pretty much correct.
Yep.
My wife was breastfeeding and hit her lactate threshold after about 6 months. She needs to get a lab test done to determine the correct zones.
@@dimitar297 the kid
Just discovered your channels and videos… it is great as I m tiring to figure it out! Keep out the good work!
Thanks, will do!
Timely video - was just doing one of your 30min hilly tempo runs this morning :) Having spent the last 6-12 months using MAF heart rate I think my legs have got used to moving slowly. Bit of a shock pushing the HR into zone 3 :)
Oh yea, you'll feel the burn near the end of those ones.
Some more feedback on your threshold test.
Running hard for 30 minutes (90 to 95%) is vague and could be deemed leaving more questions than answers.
A newbie might think they are at 90% when they are at 65%.
That's ok, they are unlikely to end up overtraining but they could also under achieve.
An old hand miight be so used to thrashing themselve's into the ground (which I am pretty good at) that their 90 - 95% could actually be 98 to 99% conversly digging themselve's a deeper hole by using this protocol.
It is so easy identify ~experts out here who do not run because all they do is spout on buzz words and tell you to go well past the heart rate most of us can actually carry a pace at ...
Thank you Doc for the nice talking.. very helpful, accurate info, real facts , science, specific numbers , field tests... finally someone that really knows what he's talking about , not just blah blah like most of the running gurus on the web. you really deserve a subscription to your channel! i have a question: i have been running for 3 years , my 10 k pb is around 42 minutes, i average 2-3 runs a week -20-30 km max, but in summer i also practice cycling 4 to 5 hours a week.. Now i'm preparing for a half marathon, and i'm planning to increase my mileage from 25-30 to 40-45 km x week; how much do you think i can improve my endurance performance by doing so ?
Hey, Thanks for your kind words! It's a tricky question to answer without getting a lot more background info. Simply increasing your mileage won't directly correlate to improved fitness. It's all HOW you increase your mileage, assuming you can do so without injury. Start by increasing by 1x easy run per week, and see if you can handle that without getting overly tired.
Thanks a lot that's Indeed my plan..adding 1 10 k easy run per week and see how my body responds..
Really great Video thanks💪🏼
Did you sometimes mix up the 5 Zone and the 3 Zone Model?
„Tempo does not feel mich harder then your Zone 2“. I guess there you are refering to the Zone 2 of 5, and not to the Graphic you showed with the 3 Zone model, right?
Ah, yes, I would have done that.
Thank you for the video. Arthur Lydiard appeared to be a big fan of marathon intensity which he also called aerobic threshold or steady running. I read in one of his books that he favors it to lactate threshold (at least in base training) because it is less demanding on the body and that you can actually increase your lactate threshold from below by doing this steady running. What are you thoughts on this?
I'm a BIG fan of Arthur Lydiard. Especially being a Kiwi. I don't think Lydiard's approach works as well for weekend warriors. His philosophy was built on BIG weekly mileage - I'm sure you've heard of the Lydiard 100-mile weeks. When you're running that kind of miles, it's hard to also include above-threshold intervals. However, your average Steve runner runs less than half a 100-mile week, on average, so I believe there are more effective methods for training such runners.
I have yet to see a mapping between those 3 zones and the 7-zone system, used by Joe Friel - just an example.
My only problem with your HR zones is that you use 7 zones and most watches only can handle 5. Therefore, I would need to combine zones. Any suggestions concerning the breakdown?
Make zones 1 - 5 the same as mine except the top of zone 5 would be 150% or whatever. Forget about my zone 6 and 7 because you only really need them for analysis and not prescription. Now, you can use my easy, aerobic, LT1 and LT2 specific zones within the 5 zones on your watch.
I have Vt1, Crosspoint Co2/O2, Vt2 and Vo2Max thresholds, from Ergospirometry. From your explanation, my tempo runs would be between Vt2 and sub VO2MAX points? Or, between Co2/O2 crosspoint and Vt2?
I’d use a little bit below and above the Crossover point. If they drew your cross-over point from a standard Vo2max step test, it'll probably overestimate your actual pace since it would have occurred around 5-6min into the test. If you're doing 1-mile tempo reps, that's fine, but if you're doing a 30-60-minute tempo, your crossover point will be a little below what was reported. Closer to VT1.
If they did a submax protocol before the step test, ignore what I just said 😂.
@@drwilloconnor Thank you so much! Thats exactly what was happening with my pace zones in the field pumped up to my HR and RPE: something were overestimated just like you said!
Dr. Will, for the half marathon, would 10k tempo session and 10k threshold session be good as quality sessions based on the content of this video?
10km threshold is a tough session. Great for race prep, but you'd get a better training stimulus by doing 5x 2km (2min rest) at a slightly faster pace.
So is LT1 marathon effort pace , and LT2 10k effort pace?
Pretty much easiest way to determine it without lab testing. LT1 MP & LT2 is 1 hour race pace (10k-HM depending on ability)
Regarding the zone 2, should we push it to upper zone 2, or keep it lower ? Thanks
Hey, it doesn't make much difference whether you're at the top or the bottom of zone 2. You shouldn't feel like you're pushing during a zone 2 run. You should be able to hold a conversation, if you can't you've gone past your first ventilatory threshold.
The method of determining the lactate threshold is quite subjective and therefore inaccurate. People do not feel the difference between 95% or 90% of 88% of best effort. They may think they do and then train wrong for years.
So the 30 minute test should give threshold pace/hr, is that about 4.0 mmol, so if I'd want to do Bakken double thresholds(2.5 and 3.5 mmol) both should be just under threshold?(one even more so than the other)
How should I include this into Garmin training zones?
You can only update heart rate zones in Garmin. Garmin don't have pace zones or power zones for running.
@@drwilloconnor oh I meant from a 7 zone system into a 5 zone system in Garmin, how should I set that up? Garmin doesn’t have 7 right?
That's right. I'll try to make a video this week for setting it up. You should have zones 1 - 4 as I have outlined and then leave zone 5 as 100%+
Your interpretation, your science, your threshold test… cmon…
sir, i wonder about my lt1.
age 34. rhr 55, max hr 188, lactate2 170bpm (4.35pace)
At a rough guess around 155bpm and 4:50min/km
has 30/40min talks quick 10k... half the room looking blank
Consider having fresh eyes watch your videos before publishing. I didn’t get any practical advice from this entire video
It is titled, "the science..." and in no way implies practical recommendations will be made.
@@Nezarus0 get off his meat
The SCIENCE, NOT the TRAINING SUGGESTIONS
@@terpreterin9777 SCIENCE must end in CONCLUSIONS that tell you the impact of experiments/dataset. If you don’t have a discussion on the impact then it’s yap. Have you ever read a single article from any scientific journal of any subject? Clearly not. 🍆🏇 mfer