"Fake" Jazz Arpeggios - Why Scale/Arpeggio Formulas Don't Work For Jazz Guitar
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
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Came in to learn a little jazz. Left wanting to learn Japanese.
In order to listen to so much jazz, you have to really like it, be obsessed with it, at least the stuff that you want to play, to the point that you would listen to it all the time even if you were not learning jazz, just because it's your favourite music in the world. Just wanting to play jazz is not enough, no matter how much you want it.
“You have to acquire the vocabulary that resonates with you”
I really don't find scales terribly useful for conceptualizing jazz at this point in my learning. I'm much more thinking about chord tones, when to try to hit them, when to not chase them too much and phrase over larger stretches of time
Hi Denis! This is probably my new favorite video from you! You’ve explained succinctly how ‘listen to and internalize the phrases of the masters’ doesn’t contradict ‘play what you feel, don’t copy’. You do the first one in order to do the second. Django, Bird, Trane, Miles…the language of jazz didn’t pop into their heads fully formed out of nowhere. Also enjoyed your playing, really top notch IMHO.
Hi Denis! Thanks for keep sharing your thoughts about learning Jazz!
We often say that learning jazz is like learning a language, and I completely agree with what you said before, many teachers teach jazz in an overly systematic way. My two children inspired me during the process of learning to speak. Our language is divided into two types: one is our mother tongue and the other is a second language. How do we learn our mother tongue? It is through constantly repeating the words or phrases that our parents say in different situation.As time goes by, you will build up the vocabulary and the fluency of speaking.
What about how do we learn a second language? We are often required to memorize vocabulary and analyze grammar in school... This is a way to cope with exams, not a way to truly learn the language and communicate effectively with others.
So I think the best way to learn jazz is to treat it as your mother tongue, which is to constantly listen to how others express themselves in a certain scene (chords), and then learn and imitate.
(I hope you can understand what I talking about,because I use the translator to help me)
This is such an informative lesson on jazz as a language, what works and doesn't, what sounds musical and natural. Single-position diatonic arpeggios never sound like music, to me. Overall this way of thinking allows for more creative freedom and expression in the long run. Great advice, especially on active listening and learning all the little movements or "decorations" around chord tones. I enjoy your teaching, keep posting!
Always so inspiring, Denis!
Excellente vidéo. J'adore la façon dont tu présentes les choses, ça m'éclaircie les idées, vraiment....
Great stuff! That Wes Montgomery lick at about 23:00 sounds like a quote from Song For My Father to me.
Great video man. Love these kind of talks.
A gypsy was asked how he learned to play in his childhood. He answered: "Nobody really taught me anything. I asked an adult for instructions, the only answer I got was: just watch what I do". This is also what happens in jazz, especially in the early days. Attempts to make theories from it rarely succeeded. Currently there are jazz schools, but they won't teach you how to really improvise. On the contrary, horrible concepts like chord modes are just a waste of time. If you want to learn jazz, listen to records, transcribe what you like and make your own variations on it.
Hi guys, let’s be nice to each other. I think there is truth in both statements. I think it’s a question of balance. Some people definitely tend to over analyze to the point that they can’t absorb the material and learn to “feel” what needs to be felt. On the other hand, telling a beginner to “just feel” it isn’t exactly useful. As I’ve said in previous videos, I sincerely believe anyone can learn to “feel” things but some people might need more help and guidance to get to that point. It’s what I’m trying to do with my videos. Get people to think a little but outside the box, try different things, experiment , etc… until the student finds the thing that works for them. The destination is the same, but the path can be different for everyone
@@DenisChangMusic Don't worry. I never go into a dialog with someone who uses insulting words.
You're a great player Denis and a fantastic educator. I appreciate your hard work as a fellow guitar educator. Thanks
Man you sound great 🤘
Zaaaaack , nice to see you on YT! Better to see you in real life lol
Very thoughtful and full of insight lesson. Thank you
This video is very helpful. Confirms a lot i had suspected.
Thank you for this.👍👍👍
This is a very good perspective about improvisation. Thank you for sharing
Love the lessons man
super approche Denis ! merci
Thanks Dennis, video was dandy 🤌
God! Your playing is gorgeous!
I couldn't believe I was hearing what you were saying as it resonates completely with my own experience. I studied classical guitar which involved reading music then learned everything else by listening starting with folk, blues, rock and moving on to jazz and world music. So much music outside of the west is based on an aural tradition like language. Almost nothing is written down. Music was passed on from musician to musician and as you rightly say people took from various sources and influences to create their own take on whatever tradition they chose. When I play everything except written classical music, I often have no idea what I am doing in terms of musical theory. I have selected what I play by retaining or discarding the results of experimenting with sounds and rhythms. More recently I began to feel that because of this I was perhaps a musical fraud so I have been trying to learn what it is others have been doing in a theoretical sense. I think the point is that music is "play" and anything goes. What you choose to repeat defines your style. Its an endless experiment. Thank you for encouraging me to believe in what I am already doing!
Great video!
Nice playing
I thought you explained it well. I always thought that learning bebop scales is really complicating things. It's so much easier to think about approaching chord tones and put chromatisisms where they sound good (and of course mix in arpegios) . It's easier and it opens up many more posibilities where you can go. At the same time it leads you in a natural way to nice lines that sound good to you.
They should ban the bebop scales from music schools.
Great title for
Video !
yep yep yep, thats always the problem when you try to make music using theories. Always gotta use your ear as well (while playing and while not playing). I love learning music theory, but it's more to give you ideas than a specific playing instruction. Sucks when a music school doesnt understand that tho lol. Maybe the better approach could be discarding all theory and just listen and analyze, and derive your own language yourself that way. As you said, thats how many great players learned. In the end, what we think sounds good is changed by our listening, not by reading theory.
also that thumb picking technique is super cool!
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
When I listen to a lot of GJ players, especially, Dutch players like Jimmy Rosenberg, it does seem like a lot of cut and paste licks. Now to me it's still improvising and don't really see anything wrong with it. It actually makes it more enjoyable to listen to as it sounds familiar.
Great video… but at 19.03 ;)
a comment
99% du temps on dit je vais manger dans le langage courant, c'est plus une question de registre. Je mangerai s'utilise plutôt à l'écrit ou dans une forme de langage soutenu. Quant à j'irai manger, la façon dont je l'utilise en tout cas, c'est lorsque l'action se passera (va se passer?) dans un futur plus lointain; je vais manger plus tard, j'irai manger là bas un jour. Il est possible que j'ai tort mais vite fait comme ça, c'est l'explication qui me vient en tête.
Je vais me renseigner 😂!
I am bald
Fat too?
my condolences
Great video!
Praise the RUclips algorithm gods 🙏
Look how tiny his room is. That's Tokyo!
Interesting. I've been frustrated inquiries into the rhythmic side of jazz--that you just need to "feel it." Then I would say, what if the converse was stated? What if we had detailed rhythmic theories that everyone was learning and learned harmony and melody by feel. I said that to make a point, but after watching your video--why not learn the harmonic and melodic by feel? Although I really enjoy the Barry Harris method, I agree that there's no formula.
I also say that the missing element from all of these methods is RHYTHM and pulse (Barry Harris addresses some of the rhythm--much better than Chord Scale Theory--but the gap is still there). Most of these formulas generate playing that is devoid of groove and rhythm because the rhythm becomes the afterthought. Think of jazz studies at the university level. Everyone--including drummers--is required to learn rudimentary jazz piano. What would happen if students were also required to study drums or percussion? Odd that a music that is often characterized by rhythm--that the pedagogy of the music doesn't explicitly teach rhythm as the glue that holds everything else together at every step of the process.
I think that listening is KEY, but I think you should loop in another pillar from your past videos--playing with people in musical communities. So much of this formulaic stuff is prevalent on the internet and in books because so many people just play by themselves. Jazz--just like many other genres--is social music meant to be played with people for people (even bebop and avant-garde). When we play together, we get a chance to learn from each other and get out of the myopic formula based habits of jazz pedagogy.
Check out Mike Longo’s 4 part series on jazz rhythm. Mike was Dizzy Gillespie’s piano player and friend. He goes into great depth on what he learnt from many years in Dizzy’s company. It’s a breath of fresh air when compared with the many self proclaimed experts who sound nothing like the real thing.
ruclips.net/video/IUH16d8oEwE/видео.html
Not a dig at Dennis by the way 🙄
@@raybart5604 I almost got to study with Longo, but I was stupid about the cost of his lessons. I have the whole set of "Rhythmic Nature of Jazz." Unfortunately, that perspective is few and far between and often wrongfully labeled as "snake oil" because it's such an outlier to the harmony based tradition of jazz pedagogy.
Rhythmic awareness--knowing where you are in the measure, the polyrhythms that contribute to swing, and how to hear all that rhythmic diversity. We have enough books about harmony to span the globe thrice. Too much about what notes to play--not enough about how to play them in time--i.e., in the context of music (because 99% of music has a pulse and operates intime--the experts of rubato playing know that playing "devoid of time" is a horrible myth).
What we do have is erroneous "always play chord tones on strong beats" (I am glad that Denis called that out) and wonky "mainstream" articulation--which sounds especially wonky on guitar (only pick on the off beats--Jimmy Raney didn't do that, and he is known for his hornlike articulation).
Or worse--we have people treating rhythm as a random element (starting phrases all over the measure without thinking about how each part of the measure COLORS the notes) or just playing solos completely out of time. Because we are note obsessed (I am still trying to break free of that ailment).
Instead of rules--we have to listen to ALL the crucial details. Denis Chang is the REAL DEAL, thank you meal!
@@pickinstone I am preaching to the converted. Agree with all the above. My teacher (ace U.K. guitarist Dave Cliff) was a Tristano scholar and decades later I am finally appreciating the deep wisdom of what he taught. I wasted a lot of time on chord scale theory and never sounded convincing using this approach (which may work for others).
I think scales are more of a "skeleton" tool I can use to fill in the gaps when improvising. Transcription and learning vocabulary is superior in gypsy jazz because you practice technique and licks at the same time making it extremely time efficient.
I'm a beginner and transcribed for 100's of hours already and after a while can you improvise yourself because over certain chords you can make melodic variations of phrases and vocabulary you've already studied.
I think the reason why this approach isn't popular is because guitar teachers can't make money off it. As a teacher you can teach useless scales for a very long time to an ignorant student and milk their cash instead of saying "make a transcription of an entire solo and be creative with it" is not something you can milk for a long time as your student will become independent from you in a very short amount of time.
Automobile???
beautiful playing in the intro... thanks for lesson.