They were incredibly busy so it would be hard for them to remember. This is a system related problem. A better checklisting system is needed. Or was needed. Probably fixed I assume!
I was thinking about ice from the beginning, or mainly, since he said that the plane waited for 45 minutes out in the cold. The actual clusterflak that went on there didn't even pass near me. He had it well hidden, and even threw another false hint in the ice direction when saying that the wing analysis found some parts stuck.
Amazing how many crashes are from forgetting to set flaps and slats for takeoff. It seems so elemental and critical at the same time. The warning not working contributed to the crash only as a fail-safe, so if that was not working, they were doomed. This seemed at first like it would be ice on the wings.
I think the issue is that brains aren't perfect, and given enough time, someone will make every kind of possible mistake. It just so happens that forgetting to set the flaps alone is a big enough mistake to kill everyone on board. Usually a single mistake doesn't have such devastating consequences. While humans are definitely smarter than machines for now, we certainly aren't perfect, which is obvious given this and other incidents. I think that's why more and more automation goes into planes, because That's less and less possible mistakes people can make.
Well they did set the flaps, but then retracted them temporarily so ice wouldn't build up on them intending to reset them at takeoff. They forgot. They were distracted by the change in procedure.
So a system that warns the pilot has forgotten to configure the aircraft for takeoff doesn't work in cold weather unless the pilot remembers to configure the warning as well. That's not great human factors engineering (though given that these systems were designed in the 50s I guess that's to be expected)
I disagree with that comparison. Emirates was not groundbreaking. True, they had showers, 150 a380s, and beautiful Flight Attendants... But PanAm was a PIONEER. They developed a majority of the systems of operating a global airline that are still in use today. And the flight attendants on PanAm were world class women, not simply pretty to look at. So yes, in some regards it is a valid comparison... But PanAm was so much more important to the industry than Emirates will ever be. Still enjoy all of your vids... Please keep them coming!
@@BobbyGeneric145 Pan Am was the pioneer - but not the best. Yes, Pan Am flight attendants were world-class - but so are Emirates flight attendants. Plus, in its 37-year history, EK has never had a single passenger fatality; the longest Pan Am ever went without a passenger fatality was 5 years. No matter how important Pan Am was - and they are very important - they definitely were not the best. Indeed, after a Pan Am crash, the captain wrote a book, The Myth of Aviation Safety, which was true for the entire airline industry during the "Golden Age" of air transport that never was. Seriously, Emirates (and, for that matter, Etihad, Singapore, and more airlines) offers first class products way above and beyond anything Pan Am ever had.
I think the checklist was the biggest issue. The automatic systems in a plane can fail, like in this flight or on Northwest 255. But a checklist will never fail, as long as the pilots follow it. In this case, they were doing everything by the book, unfortunately this meant that they had to keep a mental note regarding the flaps. However, because they were distracted, this mental note was forgotten. A checklist can offload plenty of mental effort, such as needing to remember something relatively simple, like extending the flaps. I think the more mental effort you can offload, the better. That's why checklists exist in the first place, because although someone could theoretically fly a plane without them, that would involve relying on unreliable human brains to always remember everything every time. I think if there's ever a point where a pilot has to make a mental note of something, that means that it would be a good candidate for a checklist item. But there also should be some kind of procedure for when you need to make a mental note for something that isn't on a checklist, since a checklist can't possibly cover everything. There ought to be, if there isn't already, some kind of failsafe way to record some kind of information you have to keep track of, such as the fact that you need to extend the flaps later, and have it be impossible to skip over that before it's too late.
Well, at least as far as flaps are concerned, the solution was to include the flaps again in the takeoff checklist, just in case the pilots missed it the first time around during the taxi checklist.
I disagree with that. Humans perform way worse than a properly designed automation. Humans excel in thinking and intelligence, but very poor in executing autonomous task sequences at the same precision and care every time and at every circumstances. Extending the checklist just increases the load. If something is mentioned only once, at an inappropriate time, it might get forgotten. If something is mentioned too many times, one might skip through it, "yeah, I did it already". But this could be proven. Give one group of people checklists and a sequence of some administrative tasks. Give the other group a software which requires them same beahviour as the checklist. The software allowed to aid the work, but strictly disallow doing something if required conditions are not met. Then run the experiment for a week. I guarantee you that it will start very good, but then you will start observing increasing number of mistakes in the first group (they are getting to confident themselves and start neglecting the checklist which takes away time from the actual task) These sorts of things are easy to automate or make warning for. I am not a pilot, but it seems by all of the videos that aviation moves sooooo slowly with the development on the "user experience" side of things, everything seems so ancient and needlessly complicated. My first issue is, why the plane have to guess the takeoff intent instead of exactly selecting that mode by the pilots? And why based on the thrust levers angle? Wouldn't be more objective to enable the warning above certain airspeed? Certainly above taxi speed, but way before v1. The current implementation is similar to as if you would keop your eye on the exact gas pedal angle in your car based on the speed limit tables, instead of checking the spedometer. Checklists are good, but it should be a fallback, in case the automation does not work.
I've seen a lot of air accident videos on this youtube channel & others and a number of no-flaps-extended conditions. If I were flying again, I tell myself, I'd definitely remember those damn things, but I know how hard it is to recall something mentally that's not on a checklist and would probably be just as human as anyone else if put in the same position. Glad they added some addl checks after those two tragedies.
As you have pointed out there are a few occasions, very few, that call for the flaps to be kept up until just before take off. One answer to the problem of forgetting them is to delay reading the Taxi Checklist until you put the flaps down. Unfortunately this could lead to the whole check list being forgotten at the last moment as If you don't put the flaps down the checklist doesn't get called for. My own answer (laughed at by some First Officers) was to write the word FLAPS in big letters on a large piece of paper and fix it to the instrument panel in such a way that it covered up most of the important flying instruments which worked on the basis that I was very unlikely to start the take off with the ASI covered! It always worked for me.
Another terrific video. As with most crashes, multiple issues combined to result in this crash. Really interesting research. Hard to believe that there wasn't one final flaps check on the checklist to save them and at least one other flight I can recall.
Cameras looking at the wings and tails and engines and displaying the images in the cockpits would prevent a lot of mistakes and crashes. Then, instead of having to rely on instruments to tell you what was happening back there, you would be able to see for yourself. Just as you could in a Tiger Moth.
Pilots need to have a notepad in the cockpit where they can write ad-hoc notes to themselves of odd states - like when the pilot said "Let's not forget the flaps", he should have a place to write that and then reading that note pad will make up a sort of "Final Checklist" of things they have to do.
As the video correctly points out, the pilots were very busy and had much to think about. Non-pilots want to put all the blame on the pilots, who had many complex variables taking up brain space. It seems like such a basic error today. But there are now improvements in checklists, as well as methods to use those checklists. I flew 727s in the 1990s. Our company checklists called for setting (or verifying) the flaps for takeoff 3 separate times, to ensure they weren't missed. If pilots are running a checklist and are interrupted for any reason, the crew member reading the checklist will either stop at the last verified step, or even start that particular checklist (Taxi, Descent, whatever) over from the beginning. We all benefit from improvements in technology and processes after these disasters. Sadly, as the video again points out, some improvements that could have been made after PanAm weren't done, until passengers were killed. Essentially the attitude in the industry is often "no humans were killed, only pilots, so let's not change anything yet."
The crash was a result of all of the reasons that you mentioned, hence the term "error chain." Inserting another flap check would have broken this chain. Another nicely done video.
Even on my FSX always checking before TO: flaps, trims, heading & altitude settings (according to ATC commands) and at last throttle up. I think so after many flights pilots became bored and less vigilant, too much routine also kills.
I'll go with option 4... stress. The pressure to get up in the air in time. That's the kind of stuff that makes you forget things that you _know_ you should've done. That's the kind of stuff that can make someone miss (or skip) even multiple check lists.
Ugh, human factor accidents are so tragic. I'm no pilot, but I have that gift of being able to instantly put supposed checklist items completely out of my mind, so no lack of empathy there. It's terrible that these talented people lost their lives, the only silver lining there were no passengers.
Yeah human factor accidents are unfortunately unavoidable. It’s easy to say “Oh I would never do that!” But think about it. How many times does the average person forget their phone, or their keys? How many times has someone forgotten to do something because they were tired or disoriented?
Having cut my jet teeth in the little Learjet model 23, I developed my own before takeoff check. It was flaps, trim and spoilers. Those are the things that will kill you.
You’ve got takeoff configuration warnings, and crashes where the warnings are disabled or otherwise fail. You’ve got multiple checklists that include the takeoff flaps position, and less rigorous or rushed pilots skip the step or entire checklists time and again. You’ve also got the crash where the takeoff warning sounded in flight (hint, it wasn’t a takeoff warning, it just used the same alert sound for an equally serious problem)... dunno if we want a weight-on-wheels airspeed > x-mph based warning... it’s pretty hard to judge what a pilot is thinking, but if you have a plane moving at speed on the ground, he’s probably taking off, landing, or in a hurricane. Landing’s easy to check - ‘brakes on?’. Catch here is the weight-on-wheels sensors can also fail (causing their own crashes), as can airspeed indicators... This flying thing is pretty complicated.
Great video. I find it difficult to understand how pilots can forget flaps for take-off. Mostly it is a critical thing for a successful takeoff. I would on occasion, when the runway was short and we were heavy, start the roll with no flaps, but with my hand on the flap switch. This allows you to pick up speed quicker without the drag of the flaps. Then at an appropriate speed pop the flaps.
They had flaps out but their taxi checklist wanted them to retract them so ice wouldn't build up and so they did. If you always follow checklists and you are ready to take off with all checklists completed it's very easy to assume your plane's configured for takeoff.
There are many crashes attributed to not deploying flaps. There are like 5 Air crash investigation episodes in which the crew didn't deploy flaps So whenever a plane crashes on takeoff I first think it probably is not deploying of flaps
Engine failure at takeoff is also a big killer. It is usually possible to recover from a single engine failure at takeoff, but very difficult, so even experienced can fail. In case it is a cargo plane loaded to the absolute max, a single engine failure just after rotation is mostly likely deadly (unless they have empty field in front of them, and can crash land).
There is a screw to adjust the horizontal stabilizer not the elevators. There is a specific setting for the stabilizer for takeoff depending on the weight and balance calculations.
Warning systems save lives, and so do checklists... It is important to realise that a warning system might not work properly, so the checklist should always be used for pre-flight...
tbh, the main purpose of the checklist is to remind the pilots abt what they hv to do, everyone knows that the most critical stage in a plane journey is Take Off n Landing, its obvious that the pilots would be stressed, the checklist shud hv been planned properly, so that even if the pilots forget, they would be reminded again.
That’s wrong, the purpose of a normal checklist is to confirm the required steps are accomplished, not to remind pilots what they have to do, but obviously you are not a pilot or you would have known that.
The crew forgot to extend the flaps, for sure. The warning ⚠️ could have saved them. Their training assured them of a warning sound. So ... 🤷🏼♂️ Really liked your description of Pan Am at the beginning. Thanks for another well done and well expressed episode.
It's a very intractable problem - checklists become so routine that pilots simply fill them out as if already accomplished. A similar problem almost caused Apollo 10 to end in disaster, when a critical switch was thrown twice, nullifying it, and the LM came within seconds of crashing on the Moon. There have been other examples of forgetting to set the flaps leading to catastrophe. I remember one crash of a commuter airliner where they forgot to remove the lock pins on the elevator and rudder!! Astounding. Anything my life depended on, I would check and recheck a 1000 times!
If you consider how long ago this was, and all that the flight deck crew were trying to manage, I can’t help but feel that they were over tasked. The unfamiliar flight-line, weather, and the time pressures they felt was more than that 707 flight crew could deal with, ergo things got skipped over. Thanks for another great video, and take care, amigo.
My opinion is that the fault was shared by the flight deck members, the weather, and the industry itself. Yes, had they followed the checklist, the accident would most likely not have happened. However, the primary thing to remember is that the jet age was still in its infancy, and that the criticality of certain things were not known yet in the industry, like the importance of immediately revising checklists after it was demonstrated necessary. In the end, it was naivety and fixation that killed these people; its extremely sad that it took another like disaster to wake up the industry. Laissez faire is still common in this industry, but we react, respond & remediate *much* quicker today, and future tragedies are averted as a result (mostly).
You can almost understand the industry and airlines not wanting to make safety changes that will cost millions of dollars. But how much does it cost to rework a checklist? Virtually nothing in the scheme of things.
Thank you, always enjoying your content. I didn't see any link to JAL 8054 (10:17) on screen near the end of the video, maybe you could add this in the description ?
I always wonder how they can forget the flaps. I mean I understand how busy it gets and I also understand overlooking things, but I feel like every time you are ready to advance the throttles for take-off you would do a last 2 second visual check of the basics, and nothing is more basic than flaps, especially if you're in adverse conditions.
It just goes to show that humans have trouble when their brains are overloaded. That's why checklists are essential in "can't fail" situations. Those poor guys... We now have heavily automated aircraft, but then the challenge moves to the programmers to get everything perfect and anticipate every possible crazy situation. Then you have the "hours of boredom, and seconds of terror" problem that human pilots have trouble with. And then you have the "how does the computer behave in manual mode, Air France 445" problem. Piloting a jet in all situations is a pretty hard problem. Thanks for your efforts. I have a morbid curiosity in air crash investigations. You deliver in bite-sized segments. Watching on TV now, we seem to get that repetition that they use to pad out the show to 1 hour. It gets pretty annoying.
Just a heads up. I grew up in Anchorage. And some stories you'd cover come through here. Elmendorf is the military airfield, Ted Stevens is the civilian airfield!
To busy to check flaps as your throttling up. Busy being busy is a priority issue. Stick and rudder baby. Less is more. Keep it simple. Easier said then done. Great vid clip. Thank you.
Well, I remember shortly after the Detroit crash of flight 255, I was flying with my professor boss from DTW to Atlantic City via Philly. We were to attend a science convention. Just before the takeoff I said to him semi-jokingly "I hope they extended flaps this time". And he replied: "Well, if it makes you feel any better, you may go to the cockpit and remind them". Needless to say, I didn't!
reminds me a bit of LAPA's 737 accident back 1996, in buenos aires. they forgot to deploy the flaps. the investigators found the pilots were talking with cabin crew about what to do next night
As I recall, the flight crew’s failure to set flaps for takeoff led to the crash of Northwest Airlines Flight 255 at Detroit Metro Airport in August 1987.
I lived 5 miles north of Detroit Metro airport when NW255 crashed. I was 19 years old and had been a travel agent for just about one year. It was devastating.
The biggest contributors to this crash was BOTH pilots not glancing around the cockpit to check the "show stoppers." All warnings extinguished......stab trim in the green zone.....flaps set.....and double check control freedom of movement. That should be done as they take the runway regardless of any prior checklists they accomplished. This happened in 1968 so crew resource management wasn't such a big thing back then. I'm sure this incident was on the short list of reasons for implementing CRM training.
Sadly, pilots are always the weakest link. Being human, mistakes get made and airplanes don't tolerate much. A properly designed computer system can now monitor temperature and all the factors a pilot would, but not be overloaded when conditions or unfamiliar airports increase the workload and stress on the human pilot. Great video and very well narrated.
For Boeing not to define what they meant by ‘Cold Weather’ is a total failure by such a large company . I spent years in health and safety and when you write amendments to any rules or instructions the first thing you do once you’ve written it is to check your own wording to make sure that the new instructions are clear and concise, you then turn your finished amendment to someone else who checks to see if they understand what you’ve written . Only then is your amendment given to a test sample of people to see if they all agree on the new instructions . Once all this done it is finally approved by yet another separate person but this only happens if that person agreed with the writer, the first proof reader, the selection group and that he/she are also happy that the new instructions are clear and concise. So what the hell was Boeing doing ? They must, by way of legislation, have thier own system of checks to prevent that confusing type of amendment to be sent out . If I had even just for once ignored that system of checks my career would have been over , yet Boeing had more at steak , that being thier customers lives , I say again , I am appalled by the companies conduct . Edit : I just wanted to do this add-on cos I “slated” Boeing for thier confusing amendments, but I do remember now something that happened in my own career which highlights how easy mistakes are made . I was in charge of the safety on a very Dangerous and delicate job , what made it even more stressful was the fact that it was the first time in England that this particular procedure was undertaken . I thought I had done all my “homework” by chatting with safety officers from 2 other countries that had overseen the same procedure (Aswell as memorising around 2,000 pages of documentation ) Well the job got underway and at that point all I could do was to sit in my little portacabin and state at the blank walls . My job entailed me being the last line of defence should things go catastrophically wrong . I had a Big Red Button and all I had to do was to push it in an emergency . This action would set off an explosion that would sever all links between the worksite and the 2 tower blocks nearby , this would give any expanding explosive gasses an emergency place to vent out to the atmosphere (rather than heading to the 2 tower blocks and potentially bringing them down) Now remember I am head of safety, no matter what mistakes are made by other safety personnel in enforcing the safety protocols, the ‘Buck stops’, with me , I am ultimately responsible for any and all mishaps . So now imagine my horror as I suddenly realise that I am in a portacabin (it’s a wooden or aluminium box on wheels with a couple of windows in them ) , instead of what was supposed to be a portable “Bomb Proof” shelter . What made it worse was that I needed to be close to the “action” so I could visualise what was occurring instead of just having to rely on radio conversations . This meant that I was in the blast area (which is why I was supposed to be inside a reinforced steel and concrete structure). I realised that if I did need to set off my explosives then there was no question, I would be killing myself , a few milliseconds after my pushing that button then I would be vaporised, or if there was anything left of me then I’m sure I would be in vast amounts of little pieces . I quickly weighed up the options in the situation I was in only to realise that I had no options available , (once this particular undertaking had started it could not be stopped , the procedure was “All or Nothing”. I then decided not to let anyone know about my predicament cos I didn’t want to put any more pressure on to the guys that were carrying out the process. The only one option available to me was a “Non-Option”, cos this meant NOT pushing the Big Red Button if it was needed , Yes it would save my own life , but it would doom possibly hundreds of people to thier deaths . So seeing as there was no way I was going to trade my own life for around 200 other innocent people , All I could do was to sit , listen , and to watch , praying that I did not have to push that button . It took around 4 hrs for this delicate part of the operation to be completed (This was the only part of the job where a BIG RED BUTTON was needed). I had spent around 3 and a half hours with my hand poised ready to Push that Button , There was literally a puddle of Sweat underneath my chair, my clothes were as if I had jumped in to a pool fully clothed , I couldn’t talk cos my mouth was soo dry . Also I was ‘Frozen’ in my position and couldn’t move. Finally someone was sent to check on me, now I haven’t a clue of how I looked physically but this guy took one look at me and said , “OMG , WTF”, he then screamed for help. I was hospitalised for 4 days so that my body could recover from the stress and strain that I went through , those nearly four hours crippled my body. This was due to one mistake and that mistake could have ended up costing a lot of lives . So even though I chastised Boeing , I do realise that mistakes can (and will) happen . There was one good thing that I learnt from that experience, we all like to think that we are the type of person that would ‘Step up’ and ‘ do the right thing’ in a critical situation, but the truth is we don’t really know until such a situation is faced . Your probably reading this and saying to yourself, “Yeah but you didn’t have to push the Big Red Button”, And of course you are right , but as soon as the situation became obvious to me , I straight away accepted that I would not survive , I didn’t think too hard about it . Then there was the fact that I kept quiet about it cos I knew not only would more stress be put on the operatives but also my boss would’ve done whatever was needed to keep me safe . That would’ve meant other people putting themselves at risk by utilising the heavy plant and machinery and trying to put up some sort of blast protection for me . I didn’t want anyone else in harms way so I kept quiet. Put all these things together and it showed that my one and only responsibility at the time was to PUSH that Big Red Button should the need arise . So it’s good to know that I am the type of person that wouldn’t mess about , I would do what was right , even at my own demise . Anyway, Thankyou for sticking with this till the end, I really didn’t think that it would take so long to explain it all . Take Care . and , Be Safe , you never know what life is going to throw at you as you get around the next ‘corner’ . 😟
It would seem all three things you mentioned played a part in the disaster. That being said, it is the responsibility of the Captain to keep his cockpit in proper working order. Pilot error seems the major part of the three potential causes. RIP to the crew.
Funny thing is,if there's any mistake or trouble, you can easily pull over and investigate. Try that at 35,000 feet, onboard an aluminum tube with engines on each side. Lol,that would be one hell of an investigation.
@Mini Air Crash Investigation - answering your question: to me, it's pretty clear the main cause of the crash was neither of things you mentioned. Those contributed, no doubt. But the main thing - that 1st officer was too careless and/or tired and/or incompetent. Whatever it is, his ability to fly that plane - was at the time nearly non-existant. Because it does not take any much experience nor any much brains to know that when you take off with cargo and crapton of fuel for the long haul - you wanna rotate later than papers say you should, and you wanna attack less than papers say you should. He didn't do that - you mention stall, and i assume he had perfectly fine engines' power there. This just doesn't happen back then with any proper 1st pilot, unless something is really, really wrong with him. Even when it's no flaps - he'd just rotate later, at higher speed, and would do just enough climb to clear ground, to maintain and increase speed, because he'd start climbing. Chances are, they'd also manage to retract gear. Back then, pilots were quick to react and i bet they knew extra drag from gear while going out that heavy - best be removed ASAP. Also, when they got the shake - that would be another urgent reason for them to retract gear, as doing so helps to go out of stall sooner / better, and pilots with their experience and back then - could hardly not know it. Back during those years, planes were not yet highly automated and digitized machines. A pilot - every pilot - had to be, well, able to fly in full sense of the word. But in this case, this 1st pilot - wasn't able to. In fact, we can't even excluse the chance that he did it on purpose. There are some few known cases when pilots crashed their planes on purpose, documented cases leaving no doubt about it. Further, if so - then we can't even be entirely sure that it was not a _noble_ _deed_ of purposefully crashing that plane, mind you! Those years, it was Cold War at its heights, and maybe, just maybe, there was something inside that plane which was really, really bad. Wrong. Best destroyed, for the good of the World. Maybe that 1st pilot crashed it on purpose? Heck, maybe it was whole crew's decision to do it? Maybe the crew was not supposed to know what they are transporting, but somehow they found out, for example? At very least, we know where that plane was flying, you know - and we know how many died in the country of its destination during and after the war (agent Orange, etc), and that great many of those deaths were really avoidable. Sadly, if something similar to previous paragraph was indeed the case - obviously, we won't find out about it from an NTSB investigation. If it was something seriously classified and yet carried by a Pan Am plane - then i'd say, chances are we'd _never_ find out about it anyhow, too.
Both pilots on the NWA and Pan Am were distracted by time. NWA had to take off and be in SNA before curfew and the Pan Am was delayed because of traffic. The check list should be repeated after a non take off taxi check list has been done and a grace period for late arrivals at least 30 minutes after the final destination airport closes.
Questions ? So are you able to safely deploy flaps and ailerons (if forgotten) at take-off while trying to gain altitude, any risk of damage? Does it all require configuration before take-off or can you deploy if needed ?
@@golson33 you can, but on a large jet it would be too late anyway since the flaps move really slow, of course if you were an airline pilot you would know that.
Elmendorf is in Anchorage. Elmendorf is the USAF base of operations in Alaska separated from the the Anchorage international airport by about 2 to 3 km. He would have you think the distance is so far as to be wearying rather than an annoyance.
The combination of the miscalibrated warning system and missing flaps on the before takeoff checklist contributed to this crash. Either one of these probably would've prevented this crash.
Sadly at one point in the late 50s-early 60s Pan Am was losing multiple 707s per year. Lots of reasons, one of which was the exotic destinatiins they operated to.
@@hexadecimal7300 Best way to explain is it no pilot depend on a warning system. Warning systems are just there for as a last line of defense. What doomed this flight was a chain of events, the major one being the taxiways were contaminated with snow/slush, hence the Captain elected to retract the flaps after they had been already been extended, this was never caught by the other crew members, most likely because they were busy with other tasks which were not normally done on a regular flight.
@@obamabigears734 Yes rarely do these disasters happen over one event, usually a connected series of them. I would hope that if the configuration alarm had sounded then possibly the crew would have done something about it.
@@hexadecimal7300 Yes, they would hopefully have aborted the takeoff since the warning comes on quite early. Someone pointed that just put a styrofoam cum over the flap handle as a reminder that flaps are not extended, if they had to been up for taxing in snow/slush, and that’s what many pilots do, but maybe that lesson was learned from this accident…
Obviously if the pilots had caught it it wouldn't have happened but this is IMO squarely on the warning and the procedures that resulted in failing to calibrate it. Human error and oversight needs to be taken into account in process design. Do something enough times and errors will happen, especially when the process becomes routine. This is especially true if you are going to give people the expectation that the plane will alert them if something is misconfigured. It's quite possible both pilots thought the other one had taken care of it after they mentioned it the second time, which was confirmed when the plane didn't trigger an alert.
I love your channel. Please make a detailed documentary on the crash of flight 5719 over Hibbing, Minnesota, killing everybody on board. There are pilot behaviorial issues involved and i feel it will have great dramatic elements which will be v.interesting to see n know. Please make a well researched video on the crash of flt 5719 over Hibbing
If the flight crew is forgetting something like that, then it's not the checklist that's the first thing to be blamed. Probably, it's training or the workload during take-off.
Aren't the flap levers right in your face in the cabin? You'd think the flap setting would have caught someone's eye as they moved the thrust forward for take off. Apart from that, flaps being critical for take off, if it was me, I'd think I'd double check if they were set regardless of any checklist requirement.
I would expect the plane to have problems maintaining lift, but after takeoff, with the speed increasing, why did it lose lift? And why did the wing tip over? I don't understand.
Such a tragic irony in that "Okay, let's not forget them"
They were incredibly busy so it would be hard for them to remember. This is a system related problem. A better checklisting system is needed. Or was needed. Probably fixed I assume!
@@mynameisgladiator1933 One would hope so, though in aviation priorities seem to get scrambled or misaligned with alarming frequency.
I incorrectly guessed that it was ice buildup in the beginning.
Same. I thought they forgot to de-ice when they're trying to make the takeoff time window.
Me too
I was thinking about ice from the beginning, or mainly, since he said that the plane waited for 45 minutes out in the cold.
The actual clusterflak that went on there didn't even pass near me. He had it well hidden, and even threw another false hint in the ice direction when saying that the wing analysis found some parts stuck.
same
A reasonable conclusion based on the flight leaving Alaska.
Amazing how many crashes are from forgetting to set flaps and slats for takeoff. It seems so elemental and critical at the same time. The warning not working contributed to the crash only as a fail-safe, so if that was not working, they were doomed. This seemed at first like it would be ice on the wings.
I thought exactly the same thing.
I think the issue is that brains aren't perfect, and given enough time, someone will make every kind of possible mistake. It just so happens that forgetting to set the flaps alone is a big enough mistake to kill everyone on board. Usually a single mistake doesn't have such devastating consequences. While humans are definitely smarter than machines for now, we certainly aren't perfect, which is obvious given this and other incidents. I think that's why more and more automation goes into planes, because That's less and less possible mistakes people can make.
@@R2Bl3nd ICING, ICING, ICING, ICING . . . . . .
That's where I was stuck . . . but we never got that far.
Well they did set the flaps, but then retracted them temporarily so ice wouldn't build up on them intending to reset them at takeoff. They forgot. They were distracted by the change in procedure.
Spaniair 5022 being an example.
"Yeah, we got this warning system, but it only works on a sunny day lol."
First I read "it only works on Sunday" :D
@@zoltanolah7360 On the contrary, it tends to call out on sundays, the lazy thing.
It's only work 8:00-16:00 😂
Your voiceover is more lively with excellent emphasis and I love to see the improvement!
So a system that warns the pilot has forgotten to configure the aircraft for takeoff doesn't work in cold weather unless the pilot remembers to configure the warning as well. That's not great human factors engineering (though given that these systems were designed in the 50s I guess that's to be expected)
Awesome video as you said Pan am is Emirates of the beginning of the jet age...I am amazed by the animation you provide to your videos
Thanks so much!
I disagree with that comparison. Emirates was not groundbreaking. True, they had showers, 150 a380s, and beautiful Flight Attendants... But PanAm was a PIONEER. They developed a majority of the systems of operating a global airline that are still in use today. And the flight attendants on PanAm were world class women, not simply pretty to look at.
So yes, in some regards it is a valid comparison... But PanAm was so much more important to the industry than Emirates will ever be.
Still enjoy all of your vids... Please keep them coming!
@@BobbyGeneric145 Pan Am was the pioneer - but not the best. Yes, Pan Am flight attendants were world-class - but so are Emirates flight attendants. Plus, in its 37-year history, EK has never had a single passenger fatality; the longest Pan Am ever went without a passenger fatality was 5 years. No matter how important Pan Am was - and they are very important - they definitely were not the best. Indeed, after a Pan Am crash, the captain wrote a book, The Myth of Aviation Safety, which was true for the entire airline industry during the "Golden Age" of air transport that never was. Seriously, Emirates (and, for that matter, Etihad, Singapore, and more airlines) offers first class products way above and beyond anything Pan Am ever had.
Love how you explain so that even I with a limited knowledge can understand...many thanks
I love your videos and they are even better since you started including flight sim footage of the planes. Keep them coming! Liked and Subscribed!
I flew back from Vietnam on a Pan Am 747. My first flight on Pan Am. Great Airline just like TWA. Sad they are no more.
I think the checklist was the biggest issue. The automatic systems in a plane can fail, like in this flight or on Northwest 255. But a checklist will never fail, as long as the pilots follow it.
In this case, they were doing everything by the book, unfortunately this meant that they had to keep a mental note regarding the flaps. However, because they were distracted, this mental note was forgotten. A checklist can offload plenty of mental effort, such as needing to remember something relatively simple, like extending the flaps.
I think the more mental effort you can offload, the better. That's why checklists exist in the first place, because although someone could theoretically fly a plane without them, that would involve relying on unreliable human brains to always remember everything every time. I think if there's ever a point where a pilot has to make a mental note of something, that means that it would be a good candidate for a checklist item.
But there also should be some kind of procedure for when you need to make a mental note for something that isn't on a checklist, since a checklist can't possibly cover everything. There ought to be, if there isn't already, some kind of failsafe way to record some kind of information you have to keep track of, such as the fact that you need to extend the flaps later, and have it be impossible to skip over that before it's too late.
Well, at least as far as flaps are concerned, the solution was to include the flaps again in the takeoff checklist, just in case the pilots missed it the first time around during the taxi checklist.
I disagree with that. Humans perform way worse than a properly designed automation. Humans excel in thinking and intelligence, but very poor in executing autonomous task sequences at the same precision and care every time and at every circumstances.
Extending the checklist just increases the load. If something is mentioned only once, at an inappropriate time, it might get forgotten. If something is mentioned too many times, one might skip through it, "yeah, I did it already".
But this could be proven. Give one group of people checklists and a sequence of some administrative tasks. Give the other group a software which requires them same beahviour as the checklist. The software allowed to aid the work, but strictly disallow doing something if required conditions are not met. Then run the experiment for a week. I guarantee you that it will start very good, but then you will start observing increasing number of mistakes in the first group (they are getting to confident themselves and start neglecting the checklist which takes away time from the actual task)
These sorts of things are easy to automate or make warning for. I am not a pilot, but it seems by all of the videos that aviation moves sooooo slowly with the development on the "user experience" side of things, everything seems so ancient and needlessly complicated.
My first issue is, why the plane have to guess the takeoff intent instead of exactly selecting that mode by the pilots?
And why based on the thrust levers angle?
Wouldn't be more objective to enable the warning above certain airspeed?
Certainly above taxi speed, but way before v1.
The current implementation is similar to as if you would keop your eye on the exact gas pedal angle in your car based on the speed limit tables, instead of checking the spedometer.
Checklists are good, but it should be a fallback, in case the automation does not work.
If correct flap-settings key factor to successful take-offs, why couldn't they be referred to SEVERAL times in the list of pre-take-off checks ?
@@None-zc5vg : These days, I believe they are.
I've seen a lot of air accident videos on this youtube channel & others and a number of no-flaps-extended conditions. If I were flying again, I tell myself, I'd definitely remember those damn things, but I know how hard it is to recall something mentally that's not on a checklist and would probably be just as human as anyone else if put in the same position. Glad they added some addl checks after those two tragedies.
As you have pointed out there are a few occasions, very few, that call for the flaps to be kept up until just before take off. One answer to the problem of forgetting them is to delay reading the Taxi Checklist until you put the flaps down. Unfortunately this could lead to the whole check list being forgotten at the last moment as If you don't put the flaps down the checklist doesn't get called for.
My own answer (laughed at by some First Officers) was to write the word FLAPS in big letters on a large piece of paper and fix it to the instrument panel in such a way that it covered up most of the important flying instruments which worked on the basis that I was very unlikely to start the take off with the ASI covered! It always worked for me.
Another terrific video. As with most crashes, multiple issues combined to result in this crash. Really interesting research. Hard to believe that there wasn't one final flaps check on the checklist to save them and at least one other flight I can recall.
Cameras looking at the wings and tails and engines and displaying the images in the cockpits would prevent a lot of mistakes and crashes. Then, instead of having to rely on instruments to tell you what was happening back there, you would be able to see for yourself. Just as you could in a Tiger Moth.
The latest planes do that have to help with taxiing on the ground, some airlines let passengers see the tail cam and belly cam too. Quite fun
They couldn't be bothered to look at the flaps-handle. You think they would look at a display of the wings?
Always so sad any crash. Can’t imagine being onboard when it goes down. Nightmare. RIP.
The high stress load combined with poor checklist and terrible weather would be my answer to this question
Pilots need to have a notepad in the cockpit where they can write ad-hoc notes to themselves of odd states - like when the pilot said "Let's not forget the flaps", he should have a place to write that and then reading that note pad will make up a sort of "Final Checklist" of things they have to do.
As the video correctly points out, the pilots were very busy and had much to think about. Non-pilots want to put all the blame on the pilots, who had many complex variables taking up brain space. It seems like such a basic error today. But there are now improvements in checklists, as well as methods to use those checklists. I flew 727s in the 1990s. Our company checklists called for setting (or verifying) the flaps for takeoff 3 separate times, to ensure they weren't missed. If pilots are running a checklist and are interrupted for any reason, the crew member reading the checklist will either stop at the last verified step, or even start that particular checklist (Taxi, Descent, whatever) over from the beginning. We all benefit from improvements in technology and processes after these disasters. Sadly, as the video again points out, some improvements that could have been made after PanAm weren't done, until passengers were killed. Essentially the attitude in the industry is often "no humans were killed, only pilots, so let's not change anything yet."
It boggles the mind such sophisticated machine cannot automate part or all of the checklist.
@@xonx209 Not really. Electronics weren't nearly as advanced back then. No one had tablets or cell phones back then, either.
why does it not mention ice,?
Regardless of poor checklists, making sure the flaps are set before rolling down the runway is the most basic, fundamental part of taking off.
The crash was a result of all of the reasons that you mentioned, hence the term "error chain." Inserting another flap check would have broken this chain. Another nicely done video.
Even on my FSX always checking before TO: flaps, trims, heading & altitude settings (according to ATC commands) and at last throttle up.
I think so after many flights pilots became bored and less vigilant, too much routine also kills.
I'll go with option 4... stress.
The pressure to get up in the air in time.
That's the kind of stuff that makes you forget things that you _know_ you should've done.
That's the kind of stuff that can make someone miss (or skip) even multiple check lists.
Great explanation. Between 3 crew, you would think one would have remembered 'flaps'. The old 'human factors' deep in play here
Excellent video about an accident I had never heard of.
Great graphics. 👏🙂
Ugh, human factor accidents are so tragic. I'm no pilot, but I have that gift of being able to instantly put supposed checklist items completely out of my mind, so no lack of empathy there. It's terrible that these talented people lost their lives, the only silver lining there were no passengers.
Yeah human factor accidents are unfortunately unavoidable. It’s easy to say “Oh I would never do that!” But think about it. How many times does the average person forget their phone, or their keys? How many times has someone forgotten to do something because they were tired or disoriented?
I like catching up on some of these older ones!!
Having cut my jet teeth in the little Learjet model 23, I developed my own before takeoff check. It was flaps, trim and spoilers. Those are the things that will kill you.
Exactly, but there are times when even simple things like that gets overlooked
You’ve got takeoff configuration warnings, and crashes where the warnings are disabled or otherwise fail. You’ve got multiple checklists that include the takeoff flaps position, and less rigorous or rushed pilots skip the step or entire checklists time and again. You’ve also got the crash where the takeoff warning sounded in flight (hint, it wasn’t a takeoff warning, it just used the same alert sound for an equally serious problem)... dunno if we want a weight-on-wheels airspeed > x-mph based warning... it’s pretty hard to judge what a pilot is thinking, but if you have a plane moving at speed on the ground, he’s probably taking off, landing, or in a hurricane. Landing’s easy to check - ‘brakes on?’. Catch here is the weight-on-wheels sensors can also fail (causing their own crashes), as can airspeed indicators...
This flying thing is pretty complicated.
No pilots taking off in a hurricane
Great video.
I find it difficult to understand how pilots can forget flaps for take-off. Mostly it is a critical thing for a successful takeoff. I would on occasion, when the runway was short and we were heavy, start the roll with no flaps, but with my hand on the flap switch. This allows you to pick up speed quicker without the drag of the flaps. Then at an appropriate speed pop the flaps.
He gave you a clue what underlying problem was, I you missed it then obviously you have never flown a large jet.
They had flaps out but their taxi checklist wanted them to retract them so ice wouldn't build up and so they did. If you always follow checklists and you are ready to take off with all checklists completed it's very easy to assume your plane's configured for takeoff.
Living near an airport is a small gamble for a catastrophe.
There are many crashes attributed to not deploying flaps. There are like 5 Air crash investigation episodes in which the crew didn't deploy flaps
So whenever a plane crashes on takeoff I first think it probably is not deploying of flaps
Engine failure at takeoff is also a big killer.
It is usually possible to recover from a single engine failure at takeoff, but very difficult, so even experienced can fail.
In case it is a cargo plane loaded to the absolute max, a single engine failure just after rotation is mostly likely deadly (unless they have empty field in front of them, and can crash land).
@@adamrak7560 I am not saying it is always flaps
I just think the probably cause may be not deploying flaps
There is a screw to adjust the horizontal stabilizer not the elevators. There is a specific setting for the stabilizer for takeoff depending on the weight and balance calculations.
What do you mean, Taking off without flap extension is “Unheard of”? Takeoff without proper wing configuration has been the cause of MANY crashes.
You research your videos so well!
Warning systems save lives, and so do checklists... It is important to realise that a warning system might not work properly, so the checklist should always be used for pre-flight...
Excellent narrative. Thank you.
I really like your channel you pack a lot of information into your videos. Well-done!
Seems to me placing the flaps as the last item on a checklist would help a great deal
tbh, the main purpose of the checklist is to remind the pilots abt what they hv to do, everyone knows that the most critical stage in a plane journey is Take Off n Landing, its obvious that the pilots would be stressed, the checklist shud hv been planned properly, so that even if the pilots forget, they would be reminded again.
That’s wrong, the purpose of a normal checklist is to confirm the required steps are accomplished, not to remind pilots what they have to do, but obviously you are not a pilot or you would have known that.
The crew forgot to extend the flaps, for sure. The warning ⚠️ could have saved them. Their training assured them of a warning sound. So ... 🤷🏼♂️
Really liked your description of Pan Am at the beginning.
Thanks for another well done and well expressed episode.
It's a very intractable problem - checklists become so routine that pilots simply fill them out as if already accomplished. A similar problem almost caused Apollo 10 to end in disaster, when a critical switch was thrown twice, nullifying it, and the LM came within seconds of crashing on the Moon. There have been other examples of forgetting to set the flaps leading to catastrophe. I remember one crash of a commuter airliner where they forgot to remove the lock pins on the elevator and rudder!! Astounding. Anything my life depended on, I would check and recheck a 1000 times!
A automatic warning system with thermometer would be great
If you consider how long ago this was, and all that the flight deck crew were trying to manage, I can’t help but feel that they were over tasked. The unfamiliar flight-line, weather, and the time pressures they felt was more than that 707 flight crew could deal with, ergo things got skipped over. Thanks for another great video, and take care, amigo.
My opinion is that the fault was shared by the flight deck members, the weather, and the industry itself. Yes, had they followed the checklist, the accident would most likely not have happened. However, the primary thing to remember is that the jet age was still in its infancy, and that the criticality of certain things were not known yet in the industry, like the importance of immediately revising checklists after it was demonstrated necessary.
In the end, it was naivety and fixation that killed these people; its extremely sad that it took another like disaster to wake up the industry. Laissez faire is still common in this industry, but we react, respond & remediate *much* quicker today, and future tragedies are averted as a result (mostly).
You can almost understand the industry and airlines not wanting to make safety changes that will cost millions of dollars. But how much does it cost to rework a checklist? Virtually nothing in the scheme of things.
Great video friend but sad. Rip Amen 🙏🏻.
Thanks!
Thank you, always enjoying your content. I didn't see any link to JAL 8054 (10:17) on screen near the end of the video, maybe you could add this in the description ?
ruclips.net/video/CoJBXfMXuT8/видео.html
I always wonder how they can forget the flaps. I mean I understand how busy it gets and I also understand overlooking things, but I feel like every time you are ready to advance the throttles for take-off you would do a last 2 second visual check of the basics, and nothing is more basic than flaps, especially if you're in adverse conditions.
People even forget babies in a car...
Agreed.
They probably were flying by checklist instead of aviating.
They were probably smoking too much weed in the cockpit, quiet à common thing in the sixties before regulations.
It just goes to show that humans have trouble when their brains are overloaded. That's why checklists are essential in "can't fail" situations. Those poor guys...
We now have heavily automated aircraft, but then the challenge moves to the programmers to get everything perfect and anticipate every possible crazy situation. Then you have the "hours of boredom, and seconds of terror" problem that human pilots have trouble with. And then you have the "how does the computer behave in manual mode, Air France 445" problem. Piloting a jet in all situations is a pretty hard problem.
Thanks for your efforts. I have a morbid curiosity in air crash investigations. You deliver in bite-sized segments. Watching on TV now, we seem to get that repetition that they use to pad out the show to 1 hour. It gets pretty annoying.
Well, at least Pan Am Railways doesn't need to worry about flap configuration.
Just a heads up. I grew up in Anchorage. And some stories you'd cover come through here.
Elmendorf is the military airfield, Ted Stevens is the civilian airfield!
And why is that important?
To busy to check flaps as your throttling up. Busy being busy is a priority issue. Stick and rudder baby. Less is more. Keep it simple. Easier said then done. Great vid clip. Thank you.
Well, I remember shortly after the Detroit crash of flight 255, I was flying with my professor boss from DTW to Atlantic City via Philly. We were to attend a science convention. Just before the takeoff I said to him semi-jokingly "I hope they extended flaps this time". And he replied: "Well, if it makes you feel any better, you may go to the cockpit and remind them". Needless to say, I didn't!
reminds me a bit of LAPA's 737 accident back 1996, in buenos aires. they forgot to deploy the flaps. the investigators found the pilots were talking with cabin crew about what to do next night
It sounds like they are not at full throttle during takeoff, could they not have push the engine power higher to create more lift instead?
Slats and flaps are essential for a smooth takeoff. I love your narration keep up the good work
707 is such a beauty!
And another great video, sir!
on the DC-8 checklists flaps are mention 3 times on the after start, taxi. and before takeoff checks. Forgetting flaps can hurt you.
It's almost never just one thing that brings down a plain, it's several things.
Fair weather warning system.
You are a great channel....for reducing passenger take up, hee hee. I am never flying again. Peace be unto you.
I always enjoy & looking forward to your new videos. Awesome material
Yet another reminder that strict oversight & priority modifications are critical essentials
As I recall, the flight crew’s failure to set flaps for takeoff led to the crash of Northwest Airlines Flight 255 at Detroit Metro Airport in August 1987.
I lived 5 miles north of Detroit Metro airport when NW255 crashed. I was 19 years old and had been a travel agent for just about one year. It was devastating.
Always set the flaps for takeoff! Don't forget, even if it's sunny out.
It's ultimately all the pilots' responsibility.
Ultimately Captain has to take responsibility.. .
Awesome video as usual my friend greetings from South Africa 🙂
The biggest contributors to this crash was BOTH pilots not glancing around the cockpit to check the "show stoppers." All warnings extinguished......stab trim in the green zone.....flaps set.....and double check control freedom of movement. That should be done as they take the runway regardless of any prior checklists they accomplished. This happened in 1968 so crew resource management wasn't such a big thing back then. I'm sure this incident was on the short list of reasons for implementing CRM training.
Sadly, pilots are always the weakest link. Being human, mistakes get made and airplanes don't tolerate much. A properly designed computer system can now monitor temperature and all the factors a pilot would, but not be overloaded when conditions or unfamiliar airports increase the workload and stress on the human pilot. Great video and very well narrated.
For Boeing not to define what they meant by ‘Cold Weather’ is a total failure by such a large company .
I spent years in health and safety and when you write amendments to any rules or instructions the first thing you do once you’ve written it is to check your own wording to make sure that the new instructions are clear and concise, you then turn your finished amendment to someone else who checks to see if they understand what you’ve written . Only then is your amendment given to a test sample of people to see if they all agree on the new instructions . Once all this done it is finally approved by yet another separate person but this only happens if that person agreed with the writer, the first proof reader, the selection group and that he/she are also happy that the new instructions are clear and concise.
So what the hell was Boeing doing ? They must, by way of legislation, have thier own system of checks to prevent that confusing type of amendment to be sent out .
If I had even just for once ignored that system of checks my career would have been over , yet Boeing had more at steak , that being thier customers lives , I say again , I am appalled by the companies conduct .
Edit : I just wanted to do this add-on cos I “slated” Boeing for thier confusing amendments, but I do remember now something that happened in my own career which highlights how easy mistakes are made .
I was in charge of the safety on a very Dangerous and delicate job , what made it even more stressful was the fact that it was the first time in England that this particular procedure was undertaken .
I thought I had done all my “homework” by chatting with safety officers from 2 other countries that had overseen the same procedure (Aswell as memorising around 2,000 pages of documentation )
Well the job got underway and at that point all I could do was to sit in my little portacabin and state at the blank walls .
My job entailed me being the last line of defence should things go catastrophically wrong . I had a Big Red Button and all I had to do was to push it in an emergency . This action would set off an explosion that would sever all links between the worksite and the 2 tower blocks nearby , this would give any expanding explosive gasses an emergency place to vent out to the atmosphere (rather than heading to the 2 tower blocks and potentially bringing them down)
Now remember I am head of safety, no matter what mistakes are made by other safety personnel in enforcing the safety protocols, the ‘Buck stops’, with me , I am ultimately responsible for any and all mishaps .
So now imagine my horror as I suddenly realise that I am in a portacabin (it’s a wooden or aluminium box on wheels with a couple of windows in them ) , instead of what was supposed to be a portable “Bomb Proof” shelter .
What made it worse was that
I needed to be close to the “action” so I could visualise what was occurring instead of just having to rely on radio conversations .
This meant that I was in the blast area (which is why I was supposed to be inside a reinforced steel and concrete structure).
I realised that if I did need to set off my explosives then there was no question,
I would be killing myself , a few milliseconds after my pushing that button then I would be vaporised, or if there was anything left of me then I’m sure I would be in vast amounts of little pieces . I quickly weighed up the options in the situation I was in only to realise that I had no options available , (once this particular undertaking had started it could not be stopped , the procedure was “All or Nothing”.
I then decided not to let anyone know about my predicament cos I didn’t want to put any more pressure on to the guys that were carrying out the process.
The only one option available to me was a “Non-Option”, cos this meant NOT pushing the Big Red Button if it was needed , Yes it would save my own life , but it would doom possibly hundreds of people to thier deaths .
So seeing as there was no way I was going to trade my own life for around 200 other innocent people , All I could do was to sit , listen , and to watch , praying that I did not have to push that button .
It took around 4 hrs for this delicate part of the operation to be completed (This was the only part of the job where a BIG RED BUTTON was needed).
I had spent around 3 and a half hours with my hand poised ready to Push that Button , There was literally a puddle of Sweat underneath my chair, my clothes were as if I had jumped in to a pool fully clothed , I couldn’t talk cos my mouth was soo dry . Also I was ‘Frozen’ in my position and couldn’t move. Finally someone was sent to check on me, now I haven’t a clue of how I looked physically but this guy took one look at me and said ,
“OMG , WTF”, he then screamed for help.
I was hospitalised for 4 days so that my body could recover from the stress and strain that I went through , those nearly four hours crippled my body.
This was due to one mistake and that mistake could have ended up costing a lot of lives . So even though I chastised Boeing , I do realise that mistakes can (and will) happen .
There was one good thing that I learnt from that experience, we all like to think that we are the type of person that would ‘Step up’ and ‘ do the right thing’ in a critical situation, but the truth is we don’t really know until such a situation is faced .
Your probably reading this and saying to yourself,
“Yeah but you didn’t have to push the Big Red Button”,
And of course you are right , but as soon as the situation became obvious to me , I straight away accepted that I would not survive , I didn’t think too hard about it .
Then there was the fact that I kept quiet about it cos I knew not only would more stress be put on the operatives but also my boss would’ve done whatever was needed to keep me safe . That would’ve meant other people putting themselves at risk by utilising the heavy plant and machinery and trying to put up some sort of blast protection for me .
I didn’t want anyone else in harms way so I kept quiet.
Put all these things together and it showed that my one and only responsibility at the time was to PUSH that Big Red Button should the need arise .
So it’s good to know that I am the type of person that wouldn’t mess about , I would do what was right , even at my own demise .
Anyway, Thankyou for sticking with this till the end, I really didn’t think that it would take so long to explain it all .
Take Care . and ,
Be Safe , you never know what life is going to throw at you as you get around the next ‘corner’ . 😟
Awesome videos. Can you please make one for Dana Air that crashed please
Great video. This should be the new standard
It would seem all three things you mentioned played a part in the disaster. That being said, it is the responsibility of the Captain to keep his cockpit in proper working order. Pilot error seems the major part of the three potential causes. RIP to the crew.
Just imagine if everytime one has to start driving a car there was a book to go through
Funny thing is,if there's any mistake or trouble, you can easily pull over and investigate. Try that at 35,000 feet, onboard an aluminum tube with engines on each side. Lol,that would be one hell of an investigation.
@Mini Air Crash Investigation - answering your question: to me, it's pretty clear the main cause of the crash was neither of things you mentioned. Those contributed, no doubt. But the main thing - that 1st officer was too careless and/or tired and/or incompetent. Whatever it is, his ability to fly that plane - was at the time nearly non-existant. Because it does not take any much experience nor any much brains to know that when you take off with cargo and crapton of fuel for the long haul - you wanna rotate later than papers say you should, and you wanna attack less than papers say you should. He didn't do that - you mention stall, and i assume he had perfectly fine engines' power there. This just doesn't happen back then with any proper 1st pilot, unless something is really, really wrong with him. Even when it's no flaps - he'd just rotate later, at higher speed, and would do just enough climb to clear ground, to maintain and increase speed, because he'd start climbing.
Chances are, they'd also manage to retract gear. Back then, pilots were quick to react and i bet they knew extra drag from gear while going out that heavy - best be removed ASAP. Also, when they got the shake - that would be another urgent reason for them to retract gear, as doing so helps to go out of stall sooner / better, and pilots with their experience and back then - could hardly not know it.
Back during those years, planes were not yet highly automated and digitized machines. A pilot - every pilot - had to be, well, able to fly in full sense of the word. But in this case, this 1st pilot - wasn't able to. In fact, we can't even excluse the chance that he did it on purpose. There are some few known cases when pilots crashed their planes on purpose, documented cases leaving no doubt about it. Further, if so - then we can't even be entirely sure that it was not a _noble_ _deed_ of purposefully crashing that plane, mind you! Those years, it was Cold War at its heights, and maybe, just maybe, there was something inside that plane which was really, really bad. Wrong. Best destroyed, for the good of the World. Maybe that 1st pilot crashed it on purpose? Heck, maybe it was whole crew's decision to do it? Maybe the crew was not supposed to know what they are transporting, but somehow they found out, for example? At very least, we know where that plane was flying, you know - and we know how many died in the country of its destination during and after the war (agent Orange, etc), and that great many of those deaths were really avoidable.
Sadly, if something similar to previous paragraph was indeed the case - obviously, we won't find out about it from an NTSB investigation. If it was something seriously classified and yet carried by a Pan Am plane - then i'd say, chances are we'd _never_ find out about it anyhow, too.
Both pilots on the NWA and Pan Am were distracted by time. NWA had to take off and be in SNA before curfew and the Pan Am was delayed because of traffic. The check list should be repeated after a non take off taxi check list has been done and a grace period for late arrivals at least 30 minutes after the final destination airport closes.
The main differences between Pan Am and Emirates are the lack of employee abuse and secret subsidies.
Questions ? So are you able to safely deploy flaps and ailerons (if forgotten) at take-off while trying to gain altitude,
any risk of damage? Does it all require configuration before take-off or can you deploy if needed ?
Yes
@@golson33 you can, but on a large jet it would be too late anyway since the flaps move really slow, of course if you were an airline pilot you would know that.
It was Elmendorf AFB, not airport. I was stationed year for four years
It’s still an airport…
Elmendorf is in Anchorage. Elmendorf is the USAF base of operations in Alaska separated from the the Anchorage international airport by about 2 to 3 km. He would have you think the distance is so far as to be wearying rather than an annoyance.
Always check the killer items just before you advance takeoff thrust Flaps,trim,spoilers stowed brakes released
The combination of the miscalibrated warning system and missing flaps on the before takeoff checklist contributed to this crash. Either one of these probably would've prevented this crash.
Sadly at one point in the late 50s-early 60s Pan Am was losing multiple 707s per year. Lots of reasons, one of which was the exotic destinatiins they operated to.
I think the disarmed warning system doomed the plane. Pretty sure if it went off both pilots would have remembered the flaps immediately.
Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about
@@obamabigears734 Maybe, please explain why? My comment was based on the youtube. I have very limited flying experience other than simulations.
@@hexadecimal7300 Best way to explain is it no pilot depend on a warning system. Warning systems are just there for as a last line of defense. What doomed this flight was a chain of events, the major one being the taxiways were contaminated with snow/slush, hence the Captain elected to retract the flaps after they had been already been extended, this was never caught by the other crew members, most likely because they were busy with other tasks which were not normally done on a regular flight.
@@obamabigears734 Yes rarely do these disasters happen over one event, usually a connected series of them. I would hope that if the configuration alarm had sounded then possibly the crew would have done something about it.
@@hexadecimal7300 Yes, they would hopefully have aborted the takeoff since the warning comes on quite early. Someone pointed that just put a styrofoam cum over the flap handle as a reminder that flaps are not extended, if they had to been up for taxing in snow/slush, and that’s what many pilots do, but maybe that lesson was learned from this accident…
Tables are better than chairs
Obviously if the pilots had caught it it wouldn't have happened but this is IMO squarely on the warning and the procedures that resulted in failing to calibrate it. Human error and oversight needs to be taken into account in process design. Do something enough times and errors will happen, especially when the process becomes routine. This is especially true if you are going to give people the expectation that the plane will alert them if something is misconfigured. It's quite possible both pilots thought the other one had taken care of it after they mentioned it the second time, which was confirmed when the plane didn't trigger an alert.
They should have a checklist-checklist to make sure you checked all the checklists.
I love your channel. Please make a detailed documentary on the crash of flight 5719 over Hibbing, Minnesota, killing everybody on board. There are pilot behaviorial issues involved and i feel it will have great dramatic elements which will be v.interesting to see n know. Please make a well researched video on the crash of flt 5719 over Hibbing
The town that gave us Bob Dylan.
Check list.
Detroit NW 255
WHEN ITS ICY THINGS GET DICEY
If the flight crew is forgetting something like that, then it's not the checklist that's the first thing to be blamed. Probably, it's training or the workload during take-off.
Thanks for the birthday upload!
T6:44 -- Subtitle and accident summary says 7-zero-7, but audio says 7-four-7. It's a 707, though.
Aren't the flap levers right in your face in the cabin? You'd think the flap setting would have caught someone's eye as they moved the thrust forward for take off. Apart from that, flaps being critical for take off, if it was me, I'd think I'd double check if they were set regardless of any checklist requirement.
Cold weather has also caused @ least one space shuttle to blow
Temperature, Check off list, Warning system.
+++ THE PERFECT STRORM +++
The lack of taking care of checklists by the airlines.
I would expect the plane to have problems maintaining lift, but after takeoff, with the speed increasing, why did it lose lift? And why did the wing tip over? I don't understand.
I assume you are not a pilot?