Can You Trust 80 Plus?
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- Опубликовано: 15 ноя 2022
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We've gotten used to using 80 Plus efficiency ratings when deciding which power supply to buy - but is 80 Plus a fundamentally flawed system?
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what about lambda?
no
No
Link to "Cybernetcis Rating System"... Is still missing.
How about to edit the video description?
Sponsors and Merch is more important then the message in the video?
Well done LTT. 🤷♂️🤦♂️
I thought 70+ STEM was going to be the new version of 80+ lmaoo
I liked the last line :
"Let someone with more money than you be the guinea pig"
Highlighting both the importance and service of independent quality reviewers
this is especially true for new GPU and CPUs.
yep, let the early adopters suffer hahaha...
I was about to comment this lol
A wise man once said "Don't cheap out your psu kids"
Pener segc unit
a rule to live by....below 120$ for psu is a no go for me, even if i have a pc that my gpu is 250$
@Alexander Ratisbona well I worked at a school where there was a HP model that most PSU were exchanged with the PSU of other older OEM PC cause they were all dying.
And there's still many PSU without full protection on all lines which if something goes shorting it will keep feeding power until it goes puff 😁
What's a psu kid?
A foolish man once said: " Worst case you can always buy a new one"
Short answer: No. After the manufacturer has had it verified for 80 rating there is nothing stopping them from changing the insides half way through its life cycle. GN exposed this.
That was more a long answer tbh
@@jessiejames1681 Not really. Unless you have zoomer attention span.
@@neondemon5137 Jessie James' idea of a short answer may be 10 characters or less.
Shortest answer for him is probably only a yes or no but even then it might be too long
That is expected of a member of team rocket.
1:10 a little correction: Power cannot go back to the grid. Anything that doesn't go the system, is lost as heat.
Came here for this 😂
I suspect the writer read something about reactive power and it going to and from. But that's not measured in Watts so just causes confusion here.
yeah, that's what i was thinking
Yeah, if a power supply uses 469 watts and some of that goes back to the grid then it aint using 469 watts :p
I think that was a layman's way of saying that the efficiency is defined as /. Seems like semantics to argue that reactive power doesn't constitute power going back to the grid.
A little will, creating small power surges that can (but probally don't) damage other eletronics in your house.
Remember kids,
When building a house, never cheap out on Wires and Pipes.
When building a PC, never cheap out on PSU.
he's the wise man
Specially when a good psu can outlive upgrade cycles
Both are arguably the most important part of either project;
Wires and pipes are needed to make your house work as a place to live in and not just a box for sleep (wires for electricity, pipes for water)
PSU's are needed to route power to your PC and it's components and thus, needed to make a PC work like a PC and not just an expensive paper weight.
Don't worry about the foundation. It's not needed. That's just a crazy conspiracy theory. Build directly on sand to survive the storm.
And never cheap out on your chair, mattress, shoes, or tires.
There really should be ongoing random testing by the certification organisation, as well as testing more loads like this "Cybernetics" certification.
How would you propose to fund that? You'd be looking at an enormous increase in staff and administration.
You might be willing to pay double for your PSU, but given how power hungry modern processing units have become, I certainly am not 😉
@@GtsAntoni1 Seeing as quality PSU helps in conserving energy. Ask the organizations that handle the energy crisis and whatnot.
I don't know about the specifics though.
@@ZNotFound Conserve? You'll still be looking at 800w+ on a modern system during load.
Your PC is fast becoming the most expensive thing to run in your home, and a few extra percent at idle isn't going to change that.
@@GtsAntoni1 Higher efficiency throughout every PSU in the world adds ups to a lot of energy saved.
I may be an LTT viewer but MY pc is a laptop.
@@GtsAntoni1 Simple, just make the certificate valid for a certain number of units sold.
So eg. for every 1000 PSUs you make you have to recertify.
Add serial numbers to the certificate to prevent abuse and done.
So lets say I am EVGA and I make PSUs.
I first submit a unit for testing to get the certificate.
Then as I am selling the PSU and I see I am running out of serial numbers, I call 80+ and ask for a new batch.
They ask me for payment, grab a random PSU from the shelf and retest, if still valid I get another batch of serial numbers to use.
To be fair, 80PLUS was never _meant_ to tell you anything past general efficiency, so you can’t really ding them for issues around reliability, quality, etc. - we either need a set of other certifications for other points, or an overall certification that covers everything
Just look at the warranty they give. If it is 10 years, you are probably good to go.
I have a Corsair HX620w. It used to feed a e6750 cpu and a 8800gt back in the day, then a q9550 and a gtx 680, now it feeds a i3 9100f and a rtx 3060. So it's a 16 years old psu still working silently, without any problem.
Which brands are guilty of exchanging components for cheaper ones after certification btw? It would be a good starting point for at least knowing which brands to skip altogether.
I would love a deep dive on this
Prob skip gigabyte and any unknown brands
@@denniskarlsson6173 Stick with Seasonic, the heart of your system.
Get a gigabyte and you can play csgo
Not sure, I have a EVGA one and even at 550W they seem ok, been 3 years now, no fires.
This reminds me of those quotes from the movie Tommy Boy. The ones about how a guarantee makes the buyer feel all warm inside, and the other one about taking a dump in the box and marking it guaranteed.
You say the extra wattage is lost as waste heat or goes back to the grid. This is incorrect. You cannot ever loose wattage 'back to the grid'. It always has to be turned into some kind of work (typically heat if it is being wasted).
Yeah I was confused by that, since when is that a thing
I have a 600W LC Power PSU (12V Just 500W) and it still works over 10 years now. Its silent, cold and never failed despite tests have shown that it is bad. I guess I was lucky.
LC Power PSUs sometimes have popped capacitors.
You are VERY lucky. I changed very much of these LC Power Supplies, many buyed them because of the low price. The quality was at least as low as the price
@OpenYourMind actually it's the other way around. Drawing 450W on 450W psu is a lot more stressful for hardware than drawing same 450W on 550W psu.
In this case, since the total watts drawn are decided solely by your pc configuration, bigger psu is always better.
I've also seen that some test sites having a mixed recommendation, and sometimes, results between 110v or 220v. In 220v they pass but at 110v some of them fail. I think the Gammax PSUs had that.
I like that cybenetics differentiates between 115V and 230V input voltage because this seems to make a very big difference.
it does, the efficency is higher at 230V
As does 80 PLUS 115V North America, 230V EU, European spec for desktops as well as 2 Data Center PSU standards. All ENERGY STAR(R) and EU ErP endorsed.
I'm so glad that Cybenetics is including a noise rating in its rating system. I bought a power supply from Corsair a few years ago and that fan noise was annoying as hell in a quiet room. I mean, I've been playing PC games for several years, so I appreciated the importance of a quiet system. I knew to get a good CPU cooler and to read graphics cards' reviews to know which cards produced a reasonable noise level, but never in a million years did I expect I would have a noise problem from A POWER SUPPLY.
Cybenetics is more complete than 80plus. And would be better in the future. Also, is ran by a famous PSU reviewer, crmaris (Cybenetics, Hardware Busters International RUclips), who really knows his way around PSUs. Just like the other legend, JonnyGuru who opened up our eyes...
Nice info!
@@grigeri394 always. :-)
Cybenetics thankfully also tests for Noise Suppression, a very important aspect of a PSU.
I saw reports on LTT forum that major manufacturers like cooler master sell inferior quality PSUs in countries like India where there are no reviewers. What they say is not what they give. Sucks to be those guys
I actually needed this video, thanks
Cybenetics also has a certification system that goes beyond just efficiency and they even have a database where you can actually look up the components and construction of the PSU thats certified. It's high time we give others the recognition they need in order for companies to want to be certified by them and start using their standard. In Brazil some of the national "makers" are already doing this.
Even bad caps can produce a 80+ efficiency for a while but cheap caps will fail sooner.
Very well explained. Best explanation I have seen so far. Thank you.
Yeah the new Cybenetics certificate needs to be the new standard.
Just a note on the Cybnetics noise testing, it's done at 30-32° celsius ambient, meaning you should still look up seperate reviews for more modest noise data if you use your PC in a cooler environment.
It was a good standard to have to make PSU manufactures to make their PSUs better. Now basically everything is 80+ white or better 80+ kind of lost its meaning for being.
Nice to have it around though (basically no reason to be without it), until it gets replaced by some other generally accepted solution like the mentioned Cybenetics rating. Like CE marking in EU, if it's missing then it's just an instant red flag.
@@RadioactiveBlueberry What is CE?
@@yumri4 "Conformité Européenne", the french term for european conformity
it's used to mark products that passed the certificate for conformity in health, safety, and environmental requirements to a high standard
basically a europe-wide mark for something that isn't a sketchy product
oh no, there's still $@@%ty power supplies out there, just not on the big box stores you're going to. also 80 was always just the bare minimum back then to insure you didn't fry your brand new upgrade. we only get 1% to 3% conversion on gasoline, so at least the power lose isn't terrible compared to that.
I've seen even Platinum units with F-tier caps. So no, a Gold or better certificate doesn't automatically make a PSU better.
1:10 If it goes back to the grid you don't have any loss. 😉 It's always heat.
I've got a Superflower 650w leadex 3 80+ gold. Did a ton of research on it and so far never had a issue at all, been using it for about 2 years now.
If I am not mistaken Superflower is the maker of EVGA PSUs too, so yeah, should be a great PSU. Good choice!
Well, yeah you bought the most trusted PSU manufacturer. If I remember right seasonic is also another great brand. Both of them end up being rebranded and sold under different companies, though sometimes with tweaks, for better or for worse.
@@haoy14 Yeah I think they are, I just made sure the psu has all the protections like ovp uvp etc
@@originalname9999 yeah seasonic is great as well that was my first choice actually but I couldn't find any 650w seasonic psus and after I heard how the Gigabyte ones were exploding I just went with superflower
Eh, it all comes down to luck..
Mine's the RGB one, blew up after like 8 months? Granted i can still do something with the warranty, i'm leaning towards Corsair, even C tiers ' CoolerMaster lasted for 3-4 years Corsair had better customer service in my country.
Surprised you didn’t mention the PSU cultist list. Very handy for people looking to buy a PSU.
One of the finest explanations on youtube.
funny but informative, to the point and without drama but a fair warning
Entertaiment rating: 80+
been using Seasonic for nearly a decade and never let me down even pulling 700w from a 550w back when i was mining. never had an issue with any of them i have ever gotten and still have the first one i ever bought in it's box ready to be used if i need it.
Wouldn't it have been better to name the ratings 80+, 85+, 90+, 95+ instead of 80+ Bronze, 80+ Silver, etc?
Meanwhile me with a bronze power supply : hmm interesting...
Four minutes 25 seconds, you indicate looking at component inside that could be construed as open your powers supply which you shouldn’t do, unless in a controlled environment
Thanks for sharing this❗👍🤙
My LiYan power supply is 95+ Platinum. No problem at all on my 486, even when playing Doom!
I look for the brand rather than 80 Plus logo, especially after Gagabite explosion.
I'm currently using a no name 500W PSU but my current PC is not that power hungry so it works fine and it isn't loud either. However when I build my next PC I won't cheap out on the PSU. Im gonna go with at least 80+ gold and I'll research which are good options.
Now this was an interesting video. Thanks.
Excellent video, people. Tysm.
Probably better than the pre 80Plus in my 1300x...
My first PC that I am still using is now over 10 years old. Have used it ALOT and not had any problems with the PSU. Now I am building a new PC and will use my old PSU again.
Thank you BeQuiet for actualy not selling me bullshit.
Thank you, I never realized this was such a important thing
You can probably trust it at least 80+%.
Ayyy lmao
NO watch 3:15 again
Someone missed the whole point of the video...
LTT team you should come in contact with Mr. Aris Mpitziopoulos from RUclips channel Hardware Busters as he is the main writer of PSU reviews on Toms Hardware forum and could provide a lot of knowledge through his expertise on PSU Testing. You could even make a collab video to present the proper way of validating a PSU.
Bought a Silverstone DA1000R 1000 watts Gold power supply with Cybenetics Gold rating absolutely love it its so quiet even on load can barely hear it only if i move close enough to the power supply didnt come cheap though.
Cheaped out on my psu 8 years ago, its really noisy but still works fine
I can't wait to see you guys as our guinea pigs
At the current state of power utilization we may as well start marketing power supplies as having High Voltage transformers compatibility with the grid.
I used to work at a boutique builder as RMA manager. The amount of Corsair 860s we RMA'd was INSANE! I wonder if they did this scam also!
It's like every single company will game the certification testing anywhere they can... Like Volkswagen got CAUGHT doing that but every single car manufacturer does it.
Pretty much any company will exploit loopholes and weaknesses in the certification.
Not everyone completely ignores the rules bu installing software that runs more efficiently when it is being tested.
1:03 -- I see someone's been watching Scott's Thoughts 😂
funny story,i actually made a brand new pc recently,with a decently huge system power that is more than enough for me.HOWEVER,WHEN I FINALLY PLUGGED THE PC SO I COULD TEST IT,THE PSU BURNT OUT.THAT WAS SO SCARY TO SEE BECAUSE MY WHOLE SYSTEM COULDVE BEEN GONE.Thankfully the PSU i bought had safety measures and the only thing thats lost was the PSU.
I am too poor to not have a quality power supply.
İmportant video, thankuou
Someone with.more money than me be the guinea pig?!?!
That's why Linus exists :P
Great ad for the upcoming lab content
lovely. improved certification. but psu choices quite limited here. :(
There are tier list as well for the PSU.
Just had this problem this week when choosing a new PSU. It was between the RM850x & RM850. The only thing I could the find difference was sites saying one used components from China & the other Japan. However I couldn't any verifiable information in this claim, just repeated the same info on different sites. Anyway, I went with the "better" one, RM850x, cause it was only 5$ more.
Not 100%, but Corsairs RM PSUs ending with X are basically newer refresh of non-X, so similar with some improvements. I think changes were as you mentioned Japanese caps, which are in theory more tested for higher quality, but in practice, this is more of something that used to be true, but now isn't even nearly as much. Plus quieter fan with MagLev barrings. And they put caps into cables too. Both latter stuff are more nice to have. If memory serves, RM series wasn't bad to begin with, so difference wasn't as impactful. I think CX series had bit more of quality improvement with CXM refresh, where you did want to get refresh.
very very good! So many people fail to realize how and what a PSU even is.
The whole 80+ Bronze, Silver, Gold etc. standards never made sense to me. How con something be more than 80% efficient (like 80+ Gold) without just being 87%, 92% or 95% efficient?
I've been using a Seasonic S12II-430 for 10 years and it' still works great. If that's not a proof of reliability, I don't know what is!
I never think that 80+ is /the/ selling point. I don't think I'd buy a new PSU without the certification, but I'm definitely more intrigued by higher spec 80+ ratings. I end up waaaay overbuying in PSU capacity (My 5800x and RX 5700 are running on a 1200w Be Quiet! Straight Power 11, and my Athlon 3000g has an 850w EVGA of some sort that was a good deal B-stock back when PSU prices were incredibly high)
Is it still good practice to buy a PSU with just one big 12v rail rather than having multiple rails being present?
Also in the old days.. power supplies used the 3.3v and 5v volt Rails more than the 12v at the time... Are these lower voltages still relevant today?
80 Plus was a great shortcut back in the wild west days for knowing if the manufacturer gave the slightest care about quality, but now since every PSU is certified it's much less useful
i didnt really took the color of the 80+ as a quality mark
since i have first have experience on using 2 psu that is all 80+ white for 11 years (it was a seasonic 750w 80+ white)
had both on a 1st gen i7 and i5 build that was OC permanently to 4.2 ghz (yeah im one of those guys who dont upgrade until it naturally breaks down on its own)
Fun fact (or not so fun) it's not efficiency its power factor. I can't remember verbatim why but I was lectured to remember specifically that so it's gotta have some value
I just bought Corsair RM850, is it good good?
I've never had a problem with EVGA PSUs, my 6 year old 850W is still going strong. According to comments, Seasonic seems to be just as reputable.
just bought an NZXT 1000w psu and as soon as I powerd it on it blew. GG!
or we can simply wait for independent reviewers like LTT and Gamers Nexus review of the shelf power supplies to get a better view of it's capabilities and if it weather or not meet it's advertised specs.
My friend has a neat way to workaround his kVa limitation of his Flat (apartment) Long story short, his Flat can only handle 240 Volt 2 Amp. Which means it can only draw 480 Watt of appliances at once. Anything beyond 480 Watt will automatically trip the Circuit Breaker.
And then of course he has Rice Cooker, PC, etc etc that draws more than 480 Watt combined. So, how he outsmart this 480 watt Limitations?
First off he bought a "Slow-start Transformer Step Up" and then manually wiring a custom Grounding route. And then creating a custom Cooling loop for the Transformer. By limiting the Power draw from the outlet at 450 Watt Peak, the thing will take roughly 1 hour before it can handle PC & Rice Cooker at the same time 24/7 nonstop.
The 450 kVa from the outlet is increased to 4200 kVa. Now he has no problems using PC with RTX 3080, Rice Cooker, Air Conditioner, etc etc.
4:15 onwards from watching teardowns and other actual advice
"Sound like a turboprop" you say, and showing an airplane with two piston engines ;)
Wish there were cheap 100-200w titanium psus so I can use them for my computer cafe and some htpcs
I feel like most certifications are usually for marketing and profit more than actually ensuring quality.
I just learned about IMAX certifications on TVs and it's probably just a way to sell TVs and for IMAX to get money for the certifications 😆
I have a 5950x and a 4090 was wondering if the Seasonic Vertex ATX 3.0 80 Plus Gold 1000W Power Supply is a good choice? Just trying to find the best fit.
coolest shirt yet imo
this is the best fuc**** video about 80+ certefication congrazt for me you re the only one who explain it correctly
cant wait for the LTT power supply tests and many more episodes of "bullshit manufacturers claim!"
About time for 90 plus then :D
Techquickie, could you make a video about web standard? I want to know what is web standard, and why many websites optimize their web to chromium, instead of following 'standard' which might mean 'this should work well on every browsers'. Or, isn't that what it means?
Every modern browser follows the same W3C standards, with very little differences beyond bugs between them. So the vast majority of things targeting Chromium _should_ Just Work (TM) in Firefox etc. Bleeding edge features may differ in support/completeness between them all, however.
As for why many target Chromium specifically.. the only popular modern browsers that aren't basically a rebranded Chromium (usually with other things added/tweaked, but the core is still Chromium) are Firefox and Safari. Chrome, Edge, and Opera are all Chromium under the hood and alternative browsers such as Vivaldi and Maxthon are also based on Chromium. Brave is an outlier in that it's based on Firefox instead. With such a large share of the browser market being taken up by Chromium (~85% going by a quick Google search, when counting Chromium-based ones like Opera and Edge as well), it makes more sense to focus efforts there over Firefox (~8%).
This, unfortunately, means Google (who are effectively in charge of Chromium) effectively decides how the web works. W3C standards only become a full standard when "the majority of browsers" implement it, so if Google doesn't add it to Chromium, it doesn't become a full standard. (Someone correct me on this if I've misunderstood the W3C process)
I have a 1000w bronze so I need this video
Is that a Gigabyte PSU in the thumbnail? 😂
I mean, I sure hope that Seasonic doesn't pull any cheap tricks with their Titanium line -- I paid for those components. lol
Electronics designer here: ALL switch-mode power supplies (that use active electronics for power conversion) are 0% efficient, or even have "negative efficiency" when load is 0 or close to it.
Because switch-mode power supplies use active electronics, they need power to function at all, and the switching cannot be stopped at any time or it will destroy the power-supply components because of short circuit. Thus it will need power, even if the device it's powering doesn't take any power -> efficiency is it at 0%
That being said, it's true that 80plus has large issues and we need better standards.
1:09 Goes back to the grid?
Can someone explain
I have the dumbest quest of all, most of the stuff in the home is DC power, why not have a setup at yhe fuse panel. And run everything natively DC power throughout the home? Pretty sure that would definitely help with the who eco-friendly concept everyone talks about.
I have been using a crappy NOX Urano (wich doesn't even have certification) for over 11 years now with no issues
So where we can look for third party test results.
Any budget 650w PSU recommendation for a pc build with: RTX 3060, I5 12400, B660M motherboard?
Gold? We on that Platinum 80 grind baby.
Anyone have a feeling Linus tech tips is going to start giving LTT ratings from the lab testings. How long until manufacturers print that on the box?
My power supply just popped and threw a breaker the other day. Antec replaced it in a decent amount of time.
Is Open source PSU project possible ? With optional of providing validation service in case anyone need assurance
It's better to buy from a trusted brand than only looking to the 80+ certification. For instance, Seasonic.
Btw, cybenetics have their own youtube channel, it's called "Hardware Busters" and "Hardware Busters International".
so which manufactor is best ?