Surviving Dirty John with Debra Newell Pt. 1 | Navigating Narcissism with Dr. Ramani
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- Опубликовано: 8 мар 2023
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Season 2 of Navigating Narcissism premieres on March 16th!
Debra Newell became nationally known when the LA Times and Deadline covered her volatile relationship with John Meehan, also known as Dirty John. Debra discusses how she met John, the list of past narcissistic/abusive relationships she's had, and how her unawareness of red flags and love bombing made her a vulnerable target. Listen to part 1 of 2 episodes of Debra's story, and learn about the steps she took to get out of the relationship safely while protecting her own family.
I want to hear from you, too. Have a toxic topic you want me to explore? Email me at askdrramani@redtabletalk.com. I just might answer your questions on air.
Guest Bio:
Debra Newell is an interior designer based in Orange County, California. She’s the founder of Ambrosia Interior Design and is a self-made multimillionaire. As a little girl, she was always sick, so she’d spend her time drawing and designing houses. She grew up in a loving family, and although her previous marriages ended in divorce, she was close with her four children. She continues to build her interior design empire today; while spreading the word about domestic abuse and how to look out for red flags. She doesn’t believe in victim shaming, so she wrote a book about her experience with her narcissistic, abusive fifth husband, John Meehan. She and her daughter Terra, use their experience to share with those who may be going through the same struggles.
Guest Information:
Debra Newell’s Instagram - @debraambrosenewell
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and/or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast.
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Narcissists are everywhere and these days it seems like everyone has at least one in their lives! Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a licensed clinical psychologist, will help you spot red flags and heal from the narcissist in your life. Every Thursday, we will hear first-hand accounts from people who know this territory the best, the survivors.
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Forgiving someone who abuses and kills your daughter!? Unacceptable!
Toxic Positivity. People, you absolutely have to have a line in the sand! You are not wrong to have boundaries.
I think it is "pathological altruism" at its core and abusers rely on this to perpetuate their abuse. There IS a way to NOT hate an abuser/murderer and that is by accepting the reality of what they did and who they are but to openly use the word "forgive" sets up a terrible example for her daughters, grandkids, etc. I come from two long lines of criminals who depend upon the grace and love of their victims to stay out of prison, support themselves etc (some of them are avid churchgoers) and well meaning people have said "You need to forgive" and "you only have one [insert close relative here]" let them back into my life but I reply "I only have one LIFE". I have fully accepted they are not able to love or live good, honest lives but it is up to their god/God to forgive them - that's god's job, not mine.
Yes i agree, its toxic something, especially since it was immediate with no accountability or processing. Like the onus is on them when it needs to be on the perpetrator.
You don’t understand. It’s impossible for some people to get it… no explanation will be understandable to some…
Her Mom sounds like a covert narcissist, with strict ideas of how her daughter should have behaved regardless of what her husband did. Sounds like she sympathised with her daughter’s murderer, mind boggling.
Twisting a disgusting crime, blame and bully the victim. The victim is blamed for not being positive in the face of attempted murder, sexual assault etc. Twisted.
The problem with chemistry is that it is totally superficial. It is lust, not love.
I remember one therapist telling me after a hellish narcissistic relationship, she said that those butterflies we feel are actually warning sings our body is trying to tell us to RUN.
@57:00. I just cannot fathom. Her level of success. Her sister being murdered by her husband. Multiple failed marriages.
And you marry a man your children hate, WITHOUT doing a background check? Without being SURE everything he said is true? Lord have mercy. I’m glad that she is telling her story.
Marrying him after only a few weeks no less. She is probably on #6 by now. How many times can you be a "victim" before you learn...
She seems to be devoid of empathy… I think Dr, Ramani picked up in this too but she didn’t quite grasp it bc she is in therapist mode.
BUT I guarantee you that if her son brought her home for dinner….
Her alarms would be BLARING!!!
Right! Women need to protect themselves. I would’ve done a background check on him so quick if I was her. So many successful women don’t check up in their potential new partner. There is so much you can find out nowadays by doing a simple internet search. It isn’t that hard, but so many women forgo it for some strange reason.
Unless you have been there you will never understand how it works.
I have learned to question people's definition of "healthy" and sometimes I stick around for a while, I begin to see that healthy to them is toxic to me. The reason she has maladaptive patterns of relationships is that she was groomed that way at home.
I think she was never taught that forgiving doesn’t mean you have to be close to someone again. You can forgive and not forget without necessarily holding resentment about it. Just accepting that the person is the way they are.
I wish I knew how.
My first red flag was when Debra said her dad was perfect. There is no such thing as a perfect man or human.
Based on her description of her parents it sounds like dad was likely abuse (possibly narcissistic), mom was an enabler (made excuses for and hid the abuse) and she was raised to not just see abuse as love but to always accept and forgive abuse. The chemistry she was looking for was familiar pattern of abusiveness she grew up with
Agree with this. Debra initially said her mom had "traditional" views of marriage (antiquated) where the wife essentially serves the husband. Today, if a husband or partner has all the power, control, and decision-making in the relationship and the wife is to support him regardless, it falls under the definitions of domestic abuse (I am a therapist and keep a copy of the Power and Control Wheel of Domestic Abuse next to the tissues!). It sounds like her mother accepted her father's misogynistic behavior, therefore there was no apparent fighting between them. And isn't this a huge part of narcissistic abuse--to appear as the perfect family on the outside looking in? As long as the abuser is able to get their way, they would be in the ideal relationship and present as such. It is when the non-npd partner wants a voice or starts to set boundaries that the relationship starts to unravel.
Submission is a dirty word. It is very dangerous and leads to robotization (reversible) and then musselman (fatal) - Judith Herman, Trauma & Recovery
Don't play with submission please.
I had a perfect dad.
I think her mum was the controller. Sets dad up on a pedestal, then gives everyone their marching orders. Dad doesn’t go against her for whatever reason, but clearly wasn’t truly happy with forgiving Billy.
@@tomorrow4eva yes, the worst type is the martyr narc... The evil old bat actually chuckled with delight when discussing how she obeys God... And is so forgiving ...
Awful listening to her rubbish..
She is why her daughters became victims.
People who "forgive" no matter what are avoiding dealing with their emotions, sweeping it under the toxic positivity rug. I had "the sweetest ever" in-laws like that and they never dealt with anything emotionally. They just stuffed it, smiled, and carried on.
I am sorry for this. I’ve been casted the black sheep for pulling the rug or crying too long about my emotions having come from a “sweet” family as such. I wish it didn’t still hurt me today.
This poor woman was so naive. Forgiveness does not mean re-engaging with the person.
Thank you. I’ve been married 3 times for the same reasons. I tried to see the good in bad men.
My story exactly!
wow! me too!
Bad men, aka psychopaths, use self pity to induce empathy and help. Don't blame yourself and kind instincts that were purposely induced/manipulated by them laying it on thick.
Yup, I see the hurt little boy and I want to heal them. Bad men usually have a major sexual or physical abuse or neglect history, which interrupted their growth process and they forever stay those little boys, but get angrier and more self destructive with drugs or alcohol and that doesn't help.
Me too. twice a fool was I and than I dated an absolute psychopath and swore of men for good! I still attract creeps, guys who are already with someone or even married and thinking they can play with me as a toy and get some...not this girl...no way...I see all the red flags now... I no longer see what I want to see but what is really there.
Her mother taught her to disregard her instincts AND her mother put her kids second third and fourth. I forgave her daughters killer in one day so you can only imagine her disregard for her daughters emotional needs and choices she was making to divorce her husband. Then she started doing the same thing as her mother w her daughters. I am a smart beautiful woman, but I was taught to do the disease to please too. I did the same thing. Thank you for sharing this powerful story.
Let's not blame her mother, there were huge red flags.
@@marynywarriormomof1248 it’s not blaming. She loves her mother but it’s also true.
@@dijaworldworld3895 what's true?
Yup, this is a generational thing. Also, I wonder if people notice her voice, that tone says a lot.
@@tundeterezvery 'little girl-ish' 🤮
Here’s a part of the story Debra is not telling about her sisters murder.
“At trial, Cindi’s and Debra’s mother Arlane Hart testified in Billy’s defense, explaining that she loved him and did not believe he had been in his right mind when he shot and killed her daughter. Per The LA Times, prosecutor Thomas Avdeef was stunned by Arlane’s testimony, which he interpreted as painting Cindi in a negative light. “They threw her under the bus,” Avdeef said, referring to Arlane and other family members who gave testimony. “I don’t know the dynamics of the family. I could never understand that. Why say bad things about the victim?”
She grew in an abusive home and was taught to see abuse as ok and normal. I am surprised Dr. Ramani didn’t explicitly hammer this point and point this out. This wasn’t a simple case of her parents just asking her to forgive
Right! I know this is awful to think, but I can’t help but wonder… was Arlane maybe in on the plan to murder Cindi? Or at least aware of it? Another part they left out was that when Cindi left Billy, Arlane had Billy come live with her and Cindi lived elsewhere. Billy obviously planned this murder, given that he lied to a friend weeks prior about why he needed to borrow his gun, and if Billy was living at Arlane’s, was she really unaware of what he was up to? It’s possible she’s just that clueless and maybe Billy is/was a master manipulator, but I can’t really think of any other reason someone would be so quick to forgive such a horrific crime. And listening to Arlane discuss her daughter’s murder on the Dirty John podcast with such a strange tone of happiness does make me wonder. It’s like she didn’t even grieve at all for her dead child.
I think Dr. Ramani is being her utmost professional and doesn’t push it because she knows where they are mentally as in they just aren’t ready to see I that way and they may never get there. I noticed the same when she Interviewed Debra’s daughter as well. A regular person would become frustrated with them but the doctor is basically being good at her job. She can’t push it because they are not her direct patients.
Yeah the misogyny of that mom created a culture in the family of never standing up to a man I figure. She would have approached the murder's defense team and offered to testify in his favour. That is so messed up.
The next generation, Debra's daughters, seem to be aware of it.
The Netflix miniseries was really good btw. Ronnie is a savvy young woman in it at least.
Is this woman for real!? How naive can someone be? Dr. Ramani dropped the ball many times during this interview. I think she was instructed by the producers, who decided that this podcast was going to be as bland as possible, to just go along and be agreeable and light and substance-less. I say this because this woman has great insights on her other channel so what happened here?
@@andreavanda5402 right… I completely agree with you. I thought if anyone was going to finally call Debra out and ask her some tough questions rather than coddle her, that it would be Ramani because like you said, she generally seems to be overall intelligent with pretty accurate insights. I would have thought she’d see right through Debra’s “victim” act but yeah she pretty much dropped the ball here. Maybe it’s like you said, the producers pushed Ramani to be agreeable rather than confrontational at all, or maybe Ramani was purposely being like that because she wanted to get more information out of Debra and went with the friendly approach to try to get her to open up more. Either way, I am tired of everyone coddling Debra in these interviews… this woman’s selfishness nearly got her daughter killed and she’s all giggling about it on talk shows and podcasts! And everyone just seems to go along with it! Wtf?
Her mother forgave the man who murdered her daughter & this woman almost lost her own daughter to another abusive sociopath. Intergenerational trauma is real. I pray this woman's daughters are healing & awake bc mom still has got one foot in betrayal blindness. How on earth can she still refer to her mother as "the sweetest woman
That's a good point. It's also how I originally thought of my mother, as a victim of my father. Took me decades to realise she made me both his and her victim by smoothing over everything. It's not sweet, it's weak imo. Her mother by forgiving threw everyone else psychologically under the bus. Those kids needed therapy care and to be away from that man
I'm sure she now realizes there are worse things than spending the evenings alone. Wow, she's an intelligent and genuine person and it's depressing she would set the bar so low in terms of who she let's into her life. Not judging, I see it as a societal problem that some people undervalue themselves to go along with being "nice"...i hate that word.
A few little red flags on the first date? Crossing a massive boundary by going in her room. Right there, he’s out for me. Get out and stay out.
Is it possible that those who say they had a great childhood and their parents were perfect and not abusive at all are in denial? Is it possible they are still unaware of the abuse that happened to them in their childhood? I'm very curious about this. Because I am listening to Debra's story, and I am hearing a lot of psychological abuse from her parents toward her and her siblings.
I have to agree with you. Something is definitely there in that childhood that modeled “looking the other way” and/or one parent compromising oneself. For two daughters to fall victim to abusers , one resulting in death and the other with multiple emotional/psychologically violent marriages “looking for love” she was obviously lacking within herself.
@@laylaraven Well, listen to the daughter part on the podcast. 😐 She kinda spills the tea, and alludes to their being obvious issues within the family that were ignored. I’m struggling to believe her father was a good/perfect man.
Telling your truth doesn’t mean that your parents were bad. Parents, including us as parents, are not perfect. Her Dad sounds controlling and her Mom allowed it. Both are responsible.
My ex Narc husband would say this about my family, "it can't be, you had no isssues". We did have issues, enough for me to be attracted to a Narc, which is more than normal) BUT no where near the meaness & drama in his family.
@@brittneysperspective8433 yep.....eberytime I hear the story and the "perfect" family thing I always go suuuuuuure if you say so but I have lots of questions
I can't help but to wonder if Debra's stalker in her youth was Billy, her sister's husband. He might have gotten someone to scare her only to come in and be "the hero". Some sick game.
I think a commenter said she mentions elsewhere that he was a man who frequented a restaurant she worked at was eventually caught.
I think you nailed it!!
I just made same comment before I saw yours
!!!!!!!!
I'm starting to feel they are all MASONS . Debra is doing the ILLUMINATI hand sign In interviews !!!! This "story " is not what it SEEMS !! it's getting all this publicity for a REASON !!! Sorry but reading comments & learning more information on this family /story & DEBRA Rubs me the WRONG WAY!!! SORRY not paying more attention to this .
YES! I was thinking along the same lines! Billy could've hired some loser friend....and then JUST HAPPENED to be the knight that saved her!🙄😡
The fact that Dr. Ramani wants to avoid "focusing the lense" on Debra is scary. I have been married 3 times and it wasn't until i focused the lense on me and my choices, that i figured out i was the problem. Debra's description of her parents is suspect. I’d say its more than a coincidence to have two daughters find themselves in horrifically abusive relationships. Maybe her inability to see people for who they are extends to her family but there is def more than seeing the good in people going on here.
Agree.
Or maybe Debra is the toxic spoon in the cocktail….
@@elizabeth84266 hahaha perhaps.. but seriously, can one person have all that go on in their lives and the only explanation is "I love too much"?
For the Christian who’s struggling with forgiving someone who isn’t remorseful, Luke 17:3 says we should forgive someone if they are remorseful. It doesn’t say forgive a non-repentant person. It’s not biblical the idea that God forgives everyone! See John 3:16. There is a wonderful ministry called Luke 17:3 and it helped me tremendously!
Jesus said “forgive them, for they know not what they do.” “They” were NOT repentant or remorseful. # 7x77
This. This is why I’ve chosen to stay single for the last 13 years or so. Once your with a dangerous malignant narcissist it can ruin you. I do t trust people. To afraid to once again pick the wrong men. I’m actually pretty happy. I have friends who say “well I have to ask my husband” before we go anywhere or make plans. I don’t have to do that. I come and go as I please. No more multiple texts saying “where are you? Why aren’t you home yet? What’s taking you so long” it can be lonely at times but it’s worth not having to deal with all that
Same here.
My story is very much similar to urs. I’ve healed but im petrified to date & haven’t for the last 3 yrs. Learned a lot about narcissists and myself, but haven’t worked on building trust again.
Made me cringe when she said her father was near perfect because I know that couldn't be true. As humans we are all flawed and not being able to see the flaws in others is also a huge red flag; it's like we are denying a part of reality. Heard so many red flags as well in the description of her family but I cant speak on it, since I was not there. I am so very glad she survived and had the courage to share these bits of her life with us, so we can learn from her mistakes. I applaud her for being so very courageous to let the world in, to learn from her mishaps.
You know sometimes it is possible. Many of us don't have anywhere near to perfect father, that doesn't mean they are not there.
It's funny, the minute she said he was somewhat arrogant right out of the gate, I literally yelled at the phone "Ugh, NEXT! Total turn off!" Then Dr Ramani asked her if she knew that was a red flag😂
There's an interesting perspective on forgiveness. When you forgive you, stop taking the poison, but the person, the perpetrator, does not escape the consequences of the action. It's just that you are no longer ruminating in the poison.
Oh god...first date invite a first date to your house...just crazy
I think when a person has children,yes. Young people tend to do a lot of risky things,I did and I have put myself in those situations,now I don't even want to see old mates who lie or anyone who shows me more than one red flag.
Absolutely NOT. You are not coming in my house after just one date. And we damn sure ain’t having no night cap
This beautuful soul has whats called Stockholm Syndrome....
There is NO WAY that she along with her Sister who was murdered at the hands of her malignant Husband were raised in her words..."the most loving supportive Parents " this is an impossibility.....
Her Mother was in her mind "a saint" her Father was wonderful...loving and supportive.....
Nothing adds up so she has been in denial which unfortunately still is to this day.
The book “Dear John” saved my mental health. I went through the same type of abuse. God bless Debra. I understand why she did what she did. They are PRO con men. Mine got wanted in MI and left. I’m happy as I don’t have to worry about him coming back. Now I’m stronger and if he dared show his face to me I will would introduce him to my cast iron frying pan. No nice girl anymore.
That’s good Sissy you have to protect yourself
*I'M GOING TO RESPECTFULLY SUGGEST THAT THEIR CHILDHOOD WAS NOT AS NORMAL SANE HAPPY AS SHE SUGGESTS IT WAS.*
I totally agree!
I agree, very bizarre that both her and her sister ended up in abusive relationships! What a coincidence...and their motheirs reaction after her daughter has been murdered as well🙄
Forgiveness is not forgetting and allow abuse to continue or giving that person a pass.Forgiveness is for you to let go and not foster the harm. Forgiveness is not for the other person but for you. it’s hard and it takes fully feeling your feelings for it to work .Once the heart becomes open, nothing else makes sense❤.
I know people who still believe you should forgive and forget. I don't do that. I can forgive, but I never forget what the abusive person did and I never allow them to do it again.
It sounds like Debra is still in some serious denial about how bad John truly was, bless her heart 🤦🏽♀️
I agree teach middle schoolers personality types and red flags and what manipulation is-
If the love at home as a child was so amazing why did they seem to have such a need to be loved that they always were willing to risk their lives with these men especially Debra risking her children’s lives more than once. Severely damaged girls
Bingo!
Debra grew up with a family inwhich reality was presented as a
Mary Poppin's world. It's a false reality of life, and of human beings. So her mariages and relationship with John made sense from her world view.
Her perspective and her responses was based on her world, Mary Poppins, view, and makes sense.
I think she still holds on to that view.
I’m only nine minutes in but I can’t watch any further, it’s so blatantly obvious that her childhood was not as „perfect“ as she says. All the alarm bells were going off in my head immediately and I’m not the only one it seems like, looking through the comments, others had pointed this out way more eloquently.
I understand why one would record an interview like that, but it’s extremely triggering to me (not the topic, just the toxic positivity around that)
Yes it gives me a brick in my stomach.
I'm amazed. Here I thought that the only people who got wrapped up in abusive narcissistic relationships were those who had neglectful and even abusive dads~ now I see that it's also those who had _loving_ dads as well. Interesting.
We are all susceptible. The only way to guard ourselves, outside of our parental upbringing, is to learn about red flags *early on.*
Idolizing and spoiling a child is also abuse; the recipient might think it's love.
How does a father get his children back after having killed their mother???!!
Yes, this is deeply disturbing and I’m stunned. That’s a profoundly awful, twisted thing to do to these children . Everything about this is situation is bizarre and tragic for the kids.
I’m confused about the stalker/attacker story from when Debra was in her late teens. Debra says here that he was never caught. But she said on Laura Richards’ podcast that he was in fact caught and sent to jail, but had no recollection due to the trauma. In her book, she again says that he was in fact caught by the police and went to jail, and that he was actually a guy she’d recognized as a regular at the restaurant at which she’d been working at the time. So was he caught or not? Also wondering why this story was never brought up on the original “Dirty John” podcast… maybe she wasn’t comfortable discussing it yet at the time, but I feel like that’s kind of a major life event to omit, especially since Chris Goffard was digging into her past trying to understand her psychological state of mind.
I have to admit I’m shocked by comments such as “gosh 5 marriages I learned after 1 already she should’ve know better”.
I felt the same thought.
People don't understand the extreme bonkers obedience that her mother's & father's religion taught. LA Times podcast goes into detail about that aspect.
It's chilling how conditioned the women were. You can see it's impact in the TWO! murders it resulted in one family system urgh.
Submission is a dirty word. It is very dangerous and leads to robotization (reversible) and then musselman (fatal) - Judith Herman, Trauma & Recovery
Don't play with submission please.
@@TestTest-ft9xh i actually had a woman say to me it was God's will that her (extremely violent) husband (she'd left because she sensed he was going to kill her this time) died in a house fire to "save her from the dishonour of a divorce".
Never mind the fact the husband had been bashing her bloody & broken for 20 years plus.
And saying it to me - a divorced Christian.
We misdefinenforgiveness. This person’s mother also misdefined forgiveness. Submission is also misdefined. It’s these types of things that gives Christianity a bad name.
Indeed, amen! Luke 17:3 instructs us to forgive when someone is remorseful. Not abusers, not narcissists. It’s enough to eventually be able to accept the truth of what happened. As for submission, in the same exact passage, married people are supposed to submit to each other. Duh! I appreciate your comment!!
ruclips.net/user/liveLso9wViOuIE?feature=share
It’s amazing how we are taught that if we don’t yell or fight with each and believe in the Bible everything with our family is great, but kids will always be too young (at the most crucial time of their lives) to figure out the real dynamics of the family 😢😢
Will there be a part 2 or just this one? I know there's one with her daughter but I feel like this side remains incomplete 😢
Holy moly!!! Executive producer JPS?!?!? How?….🤯
Our Criminal System is so corrupt
This interview was painful to listen to. Debra has a long way to go in facing the truth about her parents. I put a lot of the blame on them. They taught her toxic positivity. Most of the ridiculous things Debra says, she starts off with telltale nervous laughter. That indicates to me that at some level she knows she is not grappling with fully facing things. Debra's mother is totally disgusting. I wanted to scream at our beloved Dr. Ramani. But I realize she was soft handling Debra because she is so fragile. I wonder how many years of therapy will Debra need to be able to stop her behavior. When will she ever be able to say something was major wrong with my family of origin. I am 75 yrs old and only discovered Dr. Ramani 2 yrs ago. I can say my family was toxic, narcissistic and I don't know what else. It might be hard but we have to face the hard facts. At least I think so. Now that I have I feel so much lighter. I feel so free. Good luck to Debra. And generationally speaking, good luck to her children. SMH
Debra and Ramani are narcissists themselves
YES! Exactly!! I’m 15 minutes in and triggered! She has zero awareness of the root cause of her trauma. My God.
Debra will need life-long in-depth psychotherapy. She has a severe emotional developmental delay, originating from childhood trauma (which she still is in denial of and not willing to address), exacerbated by adult trauma. She has her work cut out for her. Hopefully at some point she will realize she has a role to play in breaking this cycle and pattern of abuse and trauma...
It’s funny because he figured out her love languages right away and after that she was hooked. And immediately she thought that she finally found the Mr right.
Nothing funny about finding out someone was copying you just to manipulate you.
Sounds like a catfish or online shark .... 😮😮😮
I’m worried about Debra.
She seems high level delusional
She’s HIGHLY traumatized
She invited him to her apartment first date??!! Now this stranger knows where you live and sees what you have. Don’t do it. 🤦🏼♀️ Then he appears in your room uninvited??! Jesus.
My sentiments exactly
I dated a narcissist 2 yrs. He didn't know where I lived the first 3 months. I found out he was married broke things off. Then stalking began. I had to move out of town this time last yr to make him lose my trail. He even made entry into my home when he knew I was at the hospital once! Police finally caught him 9/21/21
Oh too creepy, my x Narc would watch me and my daughter sleep and I asked him what he was doing? He said “ Have you ever seen something so beautiful in such a vulnerable state? “ yeah I know red flag but it didn’t stop there, creepy though as that may be there was much more to come. Deborah I’m a yes person also taught the same things and I’m so happy you are here to tell your story and you’re a great mother look at how your daughters turned out. Courageous beautiful young ladies. 🙏💕🐾
Predators for sure
I'm surprised to hear she comes from such a wonderful background. I was sure she found herself in this type of relationship because she found it familiar and comforting.
I don’t think her childhood was as idyllic as she’s claiming; she might be romanticizing it, especially since her father has passed away. A lot of people romanticize things and forget about the hardships after a loved one passes away, so maybe she’s just remembering all the good times from her early years and disregarding the bad. I do remember reading in her book that her sister got married on her 18th birthday so she could get out of the house as quickly as possible, and her brother is estranged from the family, so it sounds like their household maybe wasn’t as pleasant as she’s recalling.
@@sweetielady7710 bingo!
Very interesting. She is overly nice about it all - it feels like she doesn't do healthy anger. But listening to this I feel anger for her and I wonder if Dr Ramani does too.
Do not under estimate a narcissist. Their very existence depends on their behaviors getting the supply they need like oxygen.
Some acts are unforgiveable. I think people confuse forgiving a sick person for being sick; but, you do not have to forgive the action. People need to be held accountable for their actions. There is a cause and effect to every thing we do- jail would have been a natural consequence for what that man did.
Is anyone else not completely uncomfortable with her having no ability to see red flags after being married 5 times? Wouldn’t she be blamed for putting her children in danger after being told an investigator found out he was a fraud by her daughter? Ehy wouldnt she trust her children
Forgiveness is not about excusing anyone’s bad behavior... it’s about letting go of the need “to make them pay,” and leave it to God who WILL deal with it. Forgiveness is NOT FORGETTING. And it does mean you have to live in their presence as if nothing happened.
Very well said ❤
This is so important to understand. It's not for their benefit.
I thought it was interesting that he picked roses on the way to see her…. From where? The cemetery, or the neighbors yard?
Stolen from neighbor’s yards
Ikr? Too weird.
I enjoy listening to your podcasts, but for some reason watching them has an increased comforting effect. It might be the combination of your calming demeanor and the pictures. Thanks so much.
Yep. You can fall asleep listening
For me it’s the same. I focus better too when I see the people, not just listen.
John's response demonstrated a lack of respect and empathy for another. It's not the sort of thing we should consider a mistake. It's not his presumption that she would sleep with him that was the problem, but his response to, "no."
I've thought about this and made a video on my channel. I don't buy the perfect childhood. Anyone who cannot see the flaws of their parents is in denial, and then I question how deep/how much is the denial. The fact that she was not repulsed by the man sitting on her bed uninvited leads me to childhood emotional neglect. So many marriages, all started out of "If I'm a good little girl I will be loved"....hmmm.
In her home there was likely little or no mirroring of the children's emotions, needs, and boundaries, so Debbie and her siblings never embodied healthy relating. Instead, the entire family was acting kind, wearing a mask, sweeping everything under the rug, never showing feelings/emotions/anger, and the women were submissive to the men without question because that's what made them "good". I'd say living out of their heads and cut off from the neck down. Childhood emotional neglect.
I love this new series Dr. Ramani has made. For those who said she should have challenged her guest, I'd say no. Her goal here she said is to get the guest to share HER feelings, and challenging would shut that down. Also this isn't supposed to be therapy. I really love her in this format and have been binge watching them.
I remember watching the story during the pandemic..omg....and at the same time in 2020 I left my ex which from looking at this movie and hearing Dr Ramani youtube videos I figured out my ex is narcissist...my story definitely was no where near Debra's but going through some of the same arrogance and charming ways of my ex was the same....I feel for her. She is very much an empath
Hopefully now she is so much more aware and enjoying her life after Dirty John
What i appreciate about this interview by Dr Ramani, is how she emphasises right from the start how this should be the story about Debra Newell. And rightly so. Thus, now is the time for this 60+ year old woman to wake up and smell the roses and start taking responsibility for her life, decisions, relationships and trauma. Hopefully she seeks out the right professional help to help her face reality. I feel for her children...
i have also been married 5 times and now not married but entangled with a narcissist. I feel so stupid!!!! My parents have been married for72 years and are still so kind to one another. My health is failing. I'm now dependent financially on him. (he got me fired from my live in caregiving job... no place to go).
Her story of her parents & being raised to give people the benefit of the doubt really resonates with me. After surviving a 5 year relationship with a covert narcissist and constantly making excuses for him/his behavior, & forgiving him over & over, it was extremely difficult for me to see the red flags for what they were.
When I watched this story, I was actually angry with the victim for being so stupid. In August of 2021, I discovered my husband of 17 years was a total fraud, a classic malignant narcissist and everything that goes with that. I still haven't been able to fully forgive myself for being so damned dumb.
You know what? I’m “angry” about how her mother let her down.
It took me 10 years. They are just so good at manipulation
Please read Alice Miller, expert on child abuse and criminality, mental illness, and addiction. She explains that children who cannot tell their parents about being abused do not have a good relationship with their parents...not even if it looks sweet and good to untrained eyes.
I think Billy had something to do with the stalker so he could be seen as a hero. How did that stalker keep getting away?
That was my first thought. The stalker had help.
I was thinking the same!
Excellent point! I never thought of that. I’m also confused as to how he kept getting away, especially if they had a PI on the case. The dude was breaking in, so did he not leave fingerprints? He could’ve worn gloves I guess, but it sounds like he knew her schedule because he was breaking in when she wasn’t home and knew when to call her at night. Why didn’t the police sit undercover nearby and watch for the dude during the hours Debra wasn’t home? I feel like it would’ve been easy to catch him.
I thought so too.
Thought the EXACT same thing!
What happened to the rest of the comments? It says in the description that there are 209 comments and I see maybe 50?
I think this lady was actually spiritually abused and hasn't yet comprehended it. Actually, the Bible would have the death penalty for the man who murdered his wife. The family could then truly heal. His poor kids would have justice. I bet they are so messed up. It's a false gospel that demands forgive someone without their repentance or restitution. As a Christian, this misrepresentation really ticks me off.
No. No, it's not sweetness that caused instant forgiveness. It's a failure to face truth & reality. There is something very seriously wrong to "forgive" a destructive control freak who shot your daughter dead.
If my memory serves me right, hearing the mother talk, she was obsessed with showing everyone she was the good, best Christian for forgiving, but it was really a ploy to avoid her facing how imperfect & terrible the events in her own situation was - this terrible tragedy of domestic abuse that she'd done nothing to help with .
Sounds Ike the mother bullied her husband into not facing reality, & brainwashed her remaining daughter that she was the best Christian. It's not out of sweetness the mother behaved that way. She seems very controlling.
I've seen some traditional Christian wives fake they were submissive & behind the scenes bullying their husbands into carrying out their wishes.
As for Deb, shudder. So fake nice.
Covert narcissist the mother was! Reminds me soooo much of my own mother!!
Your comment seems spot on. I totally agree. Debra says her mom is the sweetest person but siding with the murderer of your daughter is not sweet! Yes the mother is very much obsessed with showing the world her "perfect Christian" side and she even made a ton of money off the daughter's murder by traveling around the world and giving speeches about forgiveness!! And wrote a book about it! Ugh. People say Debra's dad might've been abusive (and it's possible he was), but I definitely think the mom was the abusive one! Forcing everyone to not only forgive the murderer but to be in his presence at family gatherings sounds like mentally abusive behavior to me.
Totally agree - professing forgiveness for many is virtue signaling. But Debra has some great things going for her - she didn't buy it. And she raised some pretty cool daughters - they are intelligent and discerning and they're straight talkers. Hard to raise kids like that if you're a total dufus.
I guess I'm too jaded but I 'm not buying the" perfect family" story.. 2 daughters in the clutches of narcopaths, one even unalived & a grand daughter almost? sorry too many coincidences in that "perfect" family, we know about COVERT NARCISSISM now..what I'm getting here is a total denial & lack of discernment about abuse, mental & physical😒🧐
Definitely covert narcissism! You are spot on. Glad someone finally called this out.
Not getting covert narc vibes, but enablers / codependents are super aggravating. I can’t stand them more than I can’t stand cluster B’s. My understanding of covert narcs is they are self loathing in order to get attention.
@@HollyMurphy3 they definitely can be self-loathing, but it’s normally an act. The main characteristic of a covert narc is that they LOVE to play the victim. They have to be the best at everything, including being the “best” victim. Most narcissists that I’ve been around (too many unfortunately lol) are usually a combination between being a grandiose and a covert narc. They are super overt and full of themselves, but if anything goes wrong or if they make mistakes, suddenly they turn into a “victim” and nobody can ever dare try to hold them accountable, because then that’s “victim-blaming” 🙄 (that seems to be the covert narc’s favorite line). They HAVE to be a victim, in their eyes, because they don’t believe there’s any way they did anything wrong. It’s always someone who did something to them. 🙄
@@sweetielady7710 she was definitely a victim. Even if she liked it, which I don’t believe, it doesn’t make it ok. This John guy was a psychopath. Debra definitely has some personality traits that attracted this type of guy. She made some bad moves that almost cost her everything. But I think she was conditioned mostly by her upbringing. Most women are going to think this can’t happen to them, and come down on her. They don’t know the basic darkness that runs though mens’ heads as a general rule of thumb. The truth is, most women test high in agreeableness and attract at least some of these traits in a man, and settle for it. I see it everywhere i look. This is a very extreme example. That’s why people hate enablers. I bet if John would have spent his life in prison he would have had all kinds of women writing him love letters. As if they understand his pain and and side with him that Debra was not a victim.
@@HollyMurphy3 I’m not necessarily disagreeing; John was definitely a bad person, probably a psychopath, and even though I don’t see Debra as a victim, it doesn’t mean I side with John at all. Yes Debra was very likely the way she was due to her upbringing, but almost all narcissists are. We can say the same about John. He was literally taught his behavior by his dad, so if Debra gets a pass for her actions based on her upbringing, why doesn’t he? I ask that rhetorically, as I don’t believe anyone’s actions can be excused based on childhood issues. That goes for John AND Debra. I think they were both toxic in their own ways. I did a background search on Debra out of curiosity because I was really into this story and felt that a lot was left out overall. I can tell you from what I found that this woman is simply not as much of a victim as she wants people to think. Of course it doesn’t make John’s behavior okay, but she was a heck of a lot more complicit in all of it than she leads on.
After hearing about the stalker why on earth would she be so trusting?
Dear Dr. Ramani - please talk about secondary narcissistic abuse when you have children.
@57:39 Dr. Ramani commentary. To the video editor, I get the idea of having music in the credits but please don't play it at the same volume when anyone is talking, especially when Dr. Ramani is providing valuable commentary. Background sounds are a distraction when it is the same volume as the speaker and it's also competing.
This is all true.. if we don’t see manipulation and dark behaviour carried out by our parents and role models.. it’s a shock and we don’t know how to evaluate what’s happening and what to do…
You're both so powerful. 🔥 Thank you for sharing. 🙏
Teaching your children willful ignorance is harmful and incredibly dangerous
I am just up to the forgiveness part and I wanted to say that forgiveness is important to do for the victim. It doesn't mean they get a pass or a pardon. It means we let go of our resentment and we can find some understanding for the sickness that drove them to act so abominably. If a person remains toxic we have every right to keep away.
I think billy and the stalker knew each other 😢
Exactly!
Thanks so much for sharing!
Forgiveness = you renounce your right to apply the "an eye for an eye" law. In this case, you forgive the killer by not killing him.
Reconciliation = you heal and makntakn the relationship when there is true repentance and a change in behavior.
People tend to confuse the two terms and mash it into the same thing, when it is not. That's ppm fknd it hard to forgive, they think they have to reconcile with person, when in fact, they don't.
Hi Dr Ramani and Debra, I’m so intrigued with this story. It sounds familiar- I think I’ve watched this story on Netflix. I’m so proud of you and empowered. Thank you for sharing your story ❤️🙏🏼🇦🇺
I wonder if Dr Ramani speaks more than usual because Debra's tone and passivity is not always easy to listen to. I find myself feeling impatient in places.
This is such an important podcast episode! Thank you both, ladies, for this interview. 💜💜
Thank you so much for this I have been in a very similar situation which also ended involving the police in the end due to missing all the red flags including ignoring my kids even after my brother warned me please ladies these men exist elsewhere I live in the UK and thank God for the good Dr
Some people don’t know how to recognize crazy when they meet them! These days women need to thoroughly get potential partners. If he says he’s a dr u better investigate to mk sure.
Yes I dated a doctor for a while..my friend started badmouthing him & saying he wasn't that good blah blah - so I googled - everything he said was true -.he was a top of his field specialist who trained other specialists etc etc.
Realised my friend was just being a mean jealous b*ch.
Why is it so hard for people to just be alone-even for a little while?
3 years for pre meditated murder. When I lived in Portland, we knew a man who shot his abused wife in the head in front of their 2 boys. He got 1 and a half years because he was drunk. But women who killed their husbands who abused them doing life. We think we came a long way, and we haven't. We think because we can go out into the workforce, we have progress. But all we got was extra responsibility on our shoulders.
As for it being ''more understandable that the boys were encouraged to forgive because that 'was their father'" SMH what kind of therapist are you?? THAT is the problem, and the norm that keeps the cycle of abuse. I thought we knew that now.
No one is obligated to forgive, especially the non repentant. Even God sends those to hell, so why you christians putting it on the innocent to do what God Himself wont do?? WTF
I am loving your podcasts,watched your RUclips channel then found your podcasts.
Having listened to Dr. Ramani for several years, I admit to doing a double take when she mentioned Red Table Top in her opening disclaimer. Interesting association given her content.
I too am stunned. Did not expect that whatsoever, after everything we know about jada
I enjoyed Part 1 so much, Dr. Ramani! I'm looking for Part 2, but don't see it among your videos. Have you released it yet?
What an amazing podcast of soo much information!!! The comments are even more interesting in the different perspectives !!!!
Is there a part 2?
Agree that someone without remorse does not deserve forgiveness, this is just truth and does not require you to feel unjustified or conflicted in any way. They did not ask for forgiveness, and someone who does asks for forgiveness without at least a show of some remorse is not sincere, therefore a manipulative tactic that does not require forgiveness. We need to be teaching deep biblical critical thinking skills.
This is a very brave woman to share this story❤
Where is part 2?
She is fantastic! So much information
Sometimes two narcissists end up in a relationship together. A bigger narc and a smaller narc…
So enjoyed this podcast! Very eye opening ❤
I'm only partially in the podcast ...honestly Deborah set herself up for danger. He whole background screams lack of discernment in her romantic choices, including her 5 marriages. I know you don't want to "blame" victims Dr Ramani, but accepting one invited in the danger is the number one way to avoid it again. Personal responsibility is the key here. Deborah had complete lack of wisdom. I've made a huge mistake myself ..but it happened once and will never happen again. ..Because I have learned that I allowed the toxic man into my life.
I agree, I listen to Dr. Ramani all the time, but listening to this was difficult, as I got the feeling Debra is still too nice, even looking back on all this. For her to stop being nice and protect herself, she should work to shift her self blame to better discernment. Her daughters had discernment, interestingly. Fool me once, as they say.
I agree women need to know how to recognize signs of abuse and manipulation. And women need to know how to be alone!
Five marriages???!!! Holy hell!!! But he was an imposter masquerading as a doctor. She didn’t see that train coming for her.
So judgemental. Stop it! We need to be supportive and empowering one another! 😮
I don't think SHE set herself up for any of this. I think her upbringing did. Seriously, she was raised by people who wanted the entire family to just forgive the murder of her sister and move on. These people wanted their own GRANDCHILDREN to forgive that their father murdered their mother and just move on. These were CHILDREN! Their MOM was murdered. These people's own DAUGHTER, not Daughter-In-Law. No wonder she fell into multiple relationship traps. She and her siblings were taught to forgive even the most egregious actions, so why wouldn't she forgive someone cheating or just generally unloving or disrespectful behavior? I mean murder is supposed to be one of the most heinous acts a person can commit. So if a person is taught or convinced to forgive something like that, or silenced into forgiving something like that, kind of makes sense that they would totally forgive and move on from lesser evils... because literally all of them are lesser when compared to murder.
Forgiveness isn’t “deserved” or “earned”. It doesn’t mean you’re saying the bad thing the person did was okay. It doesn’t mean you have to let that person back into your life or have any type of relationship with them. It doesn’t mean you should trust them. It doesn’t mean the person should not be punished to the full extent of the law. What forgiveness IS is a choice that the person who was hurt makes. They choose to not hold the offense against the offender any longer. They’re NOT saying everything is ok or that they’re letting the person back into their life or they shouldn’t be punished or have consequences for what they did. That is just stupid. Forgiveness is a gift. It’s not earned or deserved. It simply a choice you make in your heart to not hold the act against the person any longer.
Sitting on your bed first date is a RED BaNNER. Moving in after two months?? Ridiculous. I have no sympothy
I have to admit that I WANT to have more sympathy than I actually HAVE; actually I feel more like kicking her in the pants!
I feel blessed to hear your podcast it's giving me strength thank you for sharing 🙏
I've been a Christian for how many years but still struggle on forgiveness because God said so that we need to forgive even to those who have done so bad to us, but after learning about narcissm and relating to the word of God, i believe our understanding in the word of God should be put on context. Yes God commands us to forgive but somehow demonized people always use this to exploit us, so i believe we need to be wise when it comes to forgiveness as evil can't be defeated unless people don't see how bad they are and suffer the consequences of their doing. God's love is very patient pleading to people to repent using all circumstances but God is a just God too and this is something so many people are blinded about not knowing that there's is judgement to come to all of us..hell is for the devil but we too are going there because of the simple disobedience of mankind but again God's love was displayed when God has to die in person of Jesus, we can be free from that judgement of hell if we believe what God has done and, be remorseful of our sins, personally come to Him and accept Him again in our life to be our Lord and Saviour then that is great forgiveness from hell but it takes an action from us, so like God we can't forgive someone who can never be remorseful but are manipulative and exploitative of our great trait God has passed to us, he can't forgive satan and those rebellious angels who chose to be God's enemy and so hell was created for them for God set boundaries to everything between good and evil, holy and unholy etc
Excellent video!
Doesn’t add up. BOTH sisters pick demons? That type of treatment should have repelled them INSTANTLY.