There's an old engineering saying which goes: The things that improve, are the things that get measured. GR-Research has made that philosophy into a business model - and I think that's great!
I just opened up a pair of Paradigm Atom V.3's to re-foam the woofers. Nice cast frame woofers, decent tweeters, and brass binding posts. But... the crossover is a different story, ALL the cheese! Iron core inductor, electrolytic cap, and sand cast resistor. The nice brass binding posts have steel nuts and steel spade connectors. Wire is PVC coated cheese. The front baffles are 3/4" MDF, CNC machined, but the sides are 1/2" particle board. I made my wife look at all of this and said, "Danny would talk about all of the "cheesy" parts and ferro magnetics in the circuit path". Danny, I just want you to know that you have completely corrupted my viewpoint about loudspeaker construction. I have built some pretty good DIY speakers, but they would have been soooo much better using what I have learned about crossovers and signal flow from your RUclips videos. Thank you so much!
I have the Studio 80's and the cabinets are very well built but yes the crossover construction is fresh off the farm, filled with cheese. Don't get me wrong, I am happy with the Paradigms but, maybe they could have been better.
Depending on what version Atoms you have cheese is all they deserved in the crossover to meet it's price point. No crossover components would make the Atoms V3s compete with the next model up: Mini Monitors.
I did the GR kit on my 6000Fs and it completely improved them, so much more than I expected. When I first got them, I thought they sounded better when you listened to them from the next room. Too harsh to enjoy listening when sitting right in front of them. The GR kit changed that!
The forte is a great speaker, and the new nines won me over also, as for the others im not a huge fan of the kg line except the kg3 and 3.2, but the forte i do like alot. Its a fun speaker, not so critical or a master at imaging etc., but is efficient and can take huge power also and has a mean kickdrum and can get low, truly a fun full ranger.
I love my forte’s. For the exact reasons you mentioned - especially the kick drum. I dont want it to have flat response because that’s not the point lol
My worst experiences in hi fi were auditioning the Klipsch Lascallas. The bass bin sounded like a gymnasium. Wanted to love them but the 3 times I heard them over a period of over 15 years it was a bust. The fact that they have these crossover problems is just ridiculous. Yet somehow they sell boat loads of them. So good on them.
We've measured a pair of original La Scala a few years ago, they were a disaster. Classic speaker designs actually sell quite well these days, Klipsch Being no exception.
there are a lot of folks that don't really know what good speakers sound like, that helps explain why Klipsch and Polk can sell so many crappy speakers. But hey those orange cones look cool
When I much younger I often help a friend DJ weddings and he used LA scales. So in a hall with lots of people the LA Scalas were great, nit sure I would want them in my living room.
I agree La Scala sound off say compared the JBL 4367! But I am ordering the bookshelf RP-500M II next week. A fun speaker that doesn't cost an arm and a leg!😅
I might consider buying bigger Klipsch speakers, if they came out with a GR line of speakers. However, my little RPM-40's work great as desktops to hear your insights. Thanks
The reflections of the tweeter directly on the floor is going to be a bigger issue as it will cause comb-filtering as the reflection is no longer delayed in time vs the tweeter being closer to middle of the room with a traditional floor or ceiling reflection.
Nice AC/DC tshirt. I left the Klipsch camp over a decade ago. Too shouty for me. I also had an old school KG 5.2 which wasn’t too bad and even then they were pretty shouty which I ended up selling them after 8 mos of ownership.
Try the forte before you write Klipsch off, or the new Klipsch powered Nines I'd recommend, much different, good stuff. The best of the kg line for me, and I had nearly all of those and only liked 2, the kg3 and kg 3.2, I think mainly because they were the only ones that used that tweeter of the line and the midrange was better. Just my opinion.
I've got to wonder if speaker makers intentionally design their affordable models to sound bad in order to make the expensive stuff sound good. If true, a pox on their houses.
Priceless information on this channel. I would like to ask if you have ever measured finnish speakers like Genelec, Penaudio, Amphion, Gradient or Valo Audio ?. If you have how have they performed ?
Why don't these speaker companies hire this man to test their speakers before they go into production ? I would rather pay for for a speaker that is correct - than fool myself thinking I have good speaker
@asterixx6878 months? They have been in business for years and they can't put out a good product. I really don't care I have speakers that I spent 100 hrs of hours to design
Sounds like Klipsh has turned into the Walmart of speakers 🔊 I recommend they send the entire lineup to you and they can raise the price point slightly while making a massive improvement to their entire lineup.
Great video, always enjoy seeing how you improve these speakers. On that note, I was wondering how long it's been since you measured your reference speakers in the background, and can they measure differently over long periods of time due to many different factors, including burn in etc.?
Ever considered gluing porcelain floor tiles to the inside walls of cabinets? They don't cost much and I'd think the combination of ultra-stiff and pretty flexible would be a good combination.
Industrial floor tiles are better. However, after the gluing it in, then finding open cell foam, cutting it, and gluing it in, it's easier to just use No Rez and No Rez is much more effective.
They shoot for max sensitivity as a priority. Louder is Klipsch's main identifier in the market. The 2&1/2 way approach is smoother but it took out 3dB SPL. Halved an amplifier's power utilization in other words. Ain't incompetent or naive the original engineering they just choose rougher over quieter.
hi Danny, I'd love you to grab a pair of the older RF7 mk1's for building kits for them. You have done the mk11 and mk111 so doing the ones would finish up the line nicely lol. i'd send you mine but shipping them from Canada would be more money than i want to know.
Any chance of designing some for the 1's? I know you need measurements to go off or examples in house. If i can't send mine and unless someone drops off theirs, is it possible for me to take measurements of mine with something like the UMIK 1 microphone? Thanks again @@dannyrichie9743
Hi guys, I have a pair of Klipsch the Nines. Is there are location you would direct me to build my own crossover to make the Nines passive , since I'm sure the lovely speakers will outlast the internal amplifiers, and they are just lovely speakers.
I assume the larger drivers are not physically isolated from each other in this speaker cabinet? Low pass filtering the upper woofer to the tweeter cross-over high pass frequency (2.2khz?) still plays nice with the lower woofer which is low pass filtered also, probably 400hz? I can use your idea on my Klipsch KSF10.5 (crossovers disconnected) which I am driving with an AV receiver fed audio from LR4 crossovers in software. Thanks!
I have a set of gen one Cornwalls with the original crossover and drivers. I purchased these new in box in 1982.. Have you done a sonic analysis of these and recommendations for improvements to the drivers and /or crossover.
We only got sent one speaker, so we rarely get that opportunity, doubly so as we don't install the upgrades in house. we do the design work then den the customer their speaker along with the parts for the pair. We have done before/after with the 600M a couple years ago.
if you where to buy a speaker that can be identical on all channels minus the center channel & Sub's of course , for a 7.2.6 speaker surround setup. choosing (3) different ((( 1st, 2nd , 3rd place ))) pre-build's & (3) D.I.Y from Part Express what would you're recommendations be. can you include 3 chooses from both category's.
As a quick and dirty temporary fix/experiment could you just turn these things upside down? - Presume a short stand and an acoustically absorbent floor might be necessary.
its just insane bad design, the old mighty klipisch cant even put there drivers in phase. wtf is upo with that. i always have hit or miss with how you think about audio. some things i dontagree on but i still like looking at your videos and this is an example. they screwed up big time ! thanks for the video, looks much much better !
@@dannyrichie9743 would be interesting.. it's one of the oldest and biggest european brands. i live in italy and its costs me to much ship you my speakers.
Danny you are a phenomenal crossover guru.Great people are always hated by the masses.Don't let the negative rantings of the envious detractors irk you. Most of these crossover designers couldn't do a good execution even if you yourself beat it into their heads with a sledgehammer.
Why do people buy them? They don't sound good and I don't even think they look good. I really dislike those copper colored drivers. And I don't like horns.
Do you think the RF & the RP lines would be better if they used another horn tweeter and let the horn in there now do the duties of a mid-range 🤔 yes a 3 way
What amazes me is how many buy this speaker and expect decent results given the fact you've been doing these videos for quite some time. I do have a hypothesis however, name recognition, cheep, and naïve reviewers....
@@dannyrichie9743 So the tweeter's lower response is being canceled by the woofer''s higher response which is out of phase. Is that what causes the big dip between about 1k and 2.3k? I always thought Klipsch designed the speakers this way to have a strong low end and a bright high end. It seems many people prefer this type of inaccurate sound. (not me) Does the tweeter's position in the box affect this issue? Should it be farther from the woofers.
@@swinde Yes, it is the offset in time that causes the out of phase issue there at the crossover point. Moving the drivers further away will make it much worse. We've corrected this issue the new crossover.
@@dannyrichie9743 In that case I guess the crossover component values moved the tweeter response to match the woofers natural output? Do you think Klipsch put that in to cause a dip in the midrange to please people that like the bright and bassy sound? With this response curve, sometimes a female vocalist can almost drop out of the mix. An example would be the Pozo Seco Singers from the 60s and 70s.
@@swinde No, they have not put in a dipped area to achieve any particular sound. It was a result of poor engineering. Once we pointed out the time domain error (phase problem) they went back to the drawing board and redesigned their whole product time to fix that issue as it was a problem with nearly all of their models.
Yeah you should hire you that's for sure I have bought a pair of 8000s and resold them before I heard you guys down there I would have bought one of your kids but yeah they definitely need some work thanks
they made some improvements with the "series II" of their RP line, which fixed the phase issues, but they kept the tweeters boosted above the mids and bass.
I don't know about that, if you've just laid down your hard earned on a pair of RP's then there's every chance you might be curled up in the fetal position a few minutes after wiring them up. I've just upgraded from a pair of 5000f's to the 8000f ii's because I figured Danny would never bother getting around to a kit for these. *Doh!* Worse still, I've so far found the 8000f ii's to be pretty underwhelming and I'm second guessing my decision. This kit is actually pretty appealing darn it, hmmm... waiting to see a kit for the 8000f ii. Would happily send mine but I think postage from Australia might be a bit much.
A lot of buyer's remorse with klipsch speakers; very impressive in the showroom for 5-15 minutes, then at home you realize everything has the same colouration, then the penny drops.
It raises the question, then: why did Klipsch wire them out-of-phase? Klipsch has engineers, and one would assume they have a QA procedure. I understand cheap parts in the crossover. There's a lot of pressure to keep costs down, and the average purchaser probably won't notice? But you'd think someone at Klipsch would listen and say, "That doesn't sound quite right."
@@curtiscroulet8715 They weren't wired out of phase. The problem is the offset of the drivers and needing to design a crossover that takes that offset into account and gives a proper phase angle that will keep them in phase over a wide range. Also, it appears that Klipsch did not invest enough in the design stage to make sure these elements were correct.
If you were a prospective customer, the version 1's (RP-8000) are about 50% off right now so I am tempted to get those and then the upgrades. Are the version 2's a better start? IN other words, should I fork over the cash for those now and then wait for your upgrades to be available? Thanks!
So out of phase. How many reviewers who have been around for a long time. Just don’t seem to know or can hear this common problem. Witch makes me believe they work for or I think. They don’t want to hear the problem!
Maybe the resulting issue is a result of Klipsch building the speaker to a target budget. Those speakers cost $1k a pair. To fix the issue would cost $539. The question is, can Danny fix the issue within the same budget as klipsch maybe $25 - $50 and not $539?
@@flargosa Klipsch intentionally makes them sound the way they do. They could for the exact same price make them sound the way Danny Does. It has NOTHING to do with budget at all. He is not actually fixing them, but simply deriving a FLATTER response, where as Klipsch is making them intentionally NOT flat. Do you truly believe Klipsch is not aware of what they are doing...lol?
@@MasterofPlay7 from the measurements I've seen, they fixed the phase issues, but the tweeter still boosted by ~3dB, so they will still sound quite bright, especially on-axis. and a few reviewers have mentioned that they are a little thin in the bass and need to be kept near the front walls.
@@MasterofPlay7 They changed the order of the crossover to shift the drivers back in phase. They still use the same cheesy parts, steel parts in the binding posts, lightly constructed cabinets that have resonance issues..... If you haven't already bought them. There are better options.
Vert good job. But there is no free lunch : you loose some sensitivity ! From my point of view, it is prefered to have a linear response and less sensitive than the reverse. But let say this is klipch market to have high sensitivity speakers.
You do not LOSE sensitivity, the response "Before" was simply overly strong in the mids and highs. The bass was several decibels below the mids and highs. I think we agree!
Today, with free Software and a 1000$ to2000$ of Hardware every diy-Guy can measure the time lag of a chassis easily. Either they're all on woke science or they just don't care. No Love.
He does, but most of the speakers we get sent by customers who aren't happy with their performance. We've gotten some where they actually measure pretty well but only need some small tweaks or improvements in parts quality. A couple ATCs and a high-end Revel both were pretty good from the factory.
These videos are about speakers that were sent to them BECAUSE they sound bad or off...what do you want him to say? "The customer was disappointed with the sound, and these measure terrible...but holy f**k, do I love them! Gonna send them back just as they are and ask the customer if he is drunk!"
Hahaha how stupid could be the situation .No one use his hears ? No one has a decent source for his speakers?No one can t made a difference between speakers ? Really ,all customers ar use measurements,to see how solid is the cabbinet ? Wtf .....Music is pure listening ,you don t need an osciloscope while you listen Bach,Mozzart or ABBA you don t need to see all curves ,half of all from the whole world don t know how are looking all of this.Clips like this are made for stupid people who can t choose for himselfs and allways need a f....advice or acceptance from old bothered man who s za best in town and can criticizes a work of a great company like Klipsch .I would like if he can made the same shit with Focal ,Gryphon,Magico,Dali Kore and many more or this are to famous to be like .If you re greater like you pretrend ,why you don t have your own speakers company and let us after to criticize your job,your company,your people who work for you and see .When your company will gain age,prizes like Klipsch ,we will see how good engineer you are .
@@hom2fu Thats funny because 95db is my "comfortably loud" listening volume. I listen for hours at a time. If I want to get LOUD then I go to 110 plus db. I have taken my speakers to 115db.
@@handlemyname well I can hit 115db plus with my speakers and an Emerald Physics 200.2SE running at 8ohms 200wpc. I dont think 200wpc is that big of an amp. But then, Im also into car audio where 3000 watts isnt a big deal anymore. I just wonder what an average built speaker like those klipsch are meant to do
I just love Danny's humor.
There's an old engineering saying which goes: The things that improve, are the things that get measured. GR-Research has made that philosophy into a business model - and I think that's great!
I always love your videos and your ideas about parts quality and crossover design. Thanks for saving people from bad sound.
I just opened up a pair of Paradigm Atom V.3's to re-foam the woofers. Nice cast frame woofers, decent tweeters, and brass binding posts. But... the crossover is a different story, ALL the cheese! Iron core inductor, electrolytic cap, and sand cast resistor. The nice brass binding posts have steel nuts and steel spade connectors. Wire is PVC coated cheese. The front baffles are 3/4" MDF, CNC machined, but the sides are 1/2" particle board. I made my wife look at all of this and said, "Danny would talk about all of the "cheesy" parts and ferro magnetics in the circuit path". Danny, I just want you to know that you have completely corrupted my viewpoint about loudspeaker construction. I have built some pretty good DIY speakers, but they would have been soooo much better using what I have learned about crossovers and signal flow from your RUclips videos. Thank you so much!
I have the Studio 80's and the cabinets are very well built but yes the crossover construction is fresh off the farm, filled with cheese. Don't get me wrong, I am happy with the Paradigms but, maybe they could have been better.
You are welcome and thanks for watching.
Depending on what version Atoms you have cheese is all they deserved in the crossover to meet it's price point. No crossover components would make the Atoms V3s compete with the next model up: Mini Monitors.
Cop Pulls You Over:
Any weapons?
Any drugs?
Any Klipsch speakers?
😂
Thanks, I specially appreciate the advice on listening position. I now know what I was doing wrong.😊
This has been their move lately. Make a bad one first, then a corrected/better one on the second try.
Great shirt Danny!
While a flat response can be good it isn't always desirable.
Of course it is.
LMAO at the title and intro to this vid. Nice Danny!
Thank my editor. He comes up with all of that.
I did the GR kit on my 6000Fs and it completely improved them, so much more than I expected.
When I first got them, I thought they sounded better when you listened to them from the next room. Too harsh to enjoy listening when sitting right in front of them. The GR kit changed that!
So good to see confirmation from an actual owner
So you could just turn them upside-down with the tweeter at the floor.😅
The forte is a great speaker, and the new nines won me over also, as for the others im not a huge fan of the kg line except the kg3 and 3.2, but the forte i do like alot. Its a fun speaker, not so critical or a master at imaging etc., but is efficient and can take huge power also and has a mean kickdrum and can get low, truly a fun full ranger.
I love my forte’s. For the exact reasons you mentioned - especially the kick drum. I dont want it to have flat response because that’s not the point lol
Excellent, Danny, those Sonicaps are coming up on four hundred hours on my Pedest'ale Tower speakers. So nice. Thanks
Is your tongue usually stuck in your cheek?
Which speakers do you have snd did u do am upgrade? How was it?
My worst experiences in hi fi were auditioning the Klipsch Lascallas. The bass bin sounded like a gymnasium. Wanted to love them but the 3 times I heard them over a period of over 15 years it was a bust. The fact that they have these crossover problems is just ridiculous. Yet somehow they sell boat loads of them. So good on them.
We've measured a pair of original La Scala a few years ago, they were a disaster. Classic speaker designs actually sell quite well these days, Klipsch Being no exception.
there are a lot of folks that don't really know what good speakers sound like, that helps explain why Klipsch and Polk can sell so many crappy speakers. But hey those orange cones look cool
When I much younger I often help a friend DJ weddings and he used LA scales. So in a hall with lots of people the LA Scalas were great, nit sure I would want them in my living room.
I agree La Scala sound off say compared the JBL 4367! But I am ordering the bookshelf RP-500M II next week. A fun speaker that doesn't cost an arm and a leg!😅
Klipsch, i know you care what i think.
I love the sarcastic review.....lol. Just lay your head on the floor and they sound great....lmao
Wish somebody would send him some old skool b&w dm 302 prisms.. cheap as hell, sounds amazing (to me.) Would buy
I might consider buying bigger Klipsch speakers, if they came out with a GR line of speakers. However, my little RPM-40's work great as desktops to hear your insights. Thanks
Upgrade them to hear his voice more accurately!!
Maybe instead of laying on the floor, one could put them on the floor with the tweeter on the bottom?
The reflections of the tweeter directly on the floor is going to be a bigger issue as it will cause comb-filtering as the reflection is no longer delayed in time vs the tweeter being closer to middle of the room with a traditional floor or ceiling reflection.
😂
Great job.
I have these , and I only use them for live performances - thx for the overview.
Nice AC/DC tshirt. I left the Klipsch camp over a decade ago. Too shouty for me. I also had an old school KG 5.2 which wasn’t too bad and even then they were pretty shouty which I ended up selling them after 8 mos of ownership.
Try the forte before you write Klipsch off, or the new Klipsch powered Nines I'd recommend, much different, good stuff. The best of the kg line for me, and I had nearly all of those and only liked 2, the kg3 and kg 3.2, I think mainly because they were the only ones that used that tweeter of the line and the midrange was better. Just my opinion.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHOUTY? THEY SOUND JUST FINE TO ME.
I've got to wonder if speaker makers intentionally design their affordable models to sound bad in order to make the expensive stuff sound good. If true, a pox on their houses.
Sometimes, but even Klipsch's "flagship" RF-7 III was a disaster in its own right.
Danny is working for Klipsch for free at this point. Look out for that Mk II version of these in a few months…
You must have missed it, but there is already a MKII version.
Priceless information on this channel. I would like to ask if you have ever measured finnish speakers like Genelec, Penaudio, Amphion, Gradient or Valo Audio ?. If you have how have they performed ?
Why don't these speaker companies hire this man to test their speakers before they go into production ? I would rather pay for for a speaker that is correct - than fool myself thinking I have good speaker
$$$$$$
@asterixx6878 months? They have been in business for years and they can't put out a good product. I really don't care I have speakers that I spent 100 hrs of hours to design
Because if they used Danny's designs, the speakers would need to be priced differently.
@@EskWIRED Bingo!!!
Cause he’s a fraud
Sounds like Klipsh has turned into the Walmart of speakers 🔊
I recommend they send the entire lineup to you and they can raise the price point slightly while making a massive improvement to their entire lineup.
Great job Hobbs. You should get many orders for this common speaker.
Thanks! It's been a great learning experience getting to take a crack at some of these upgrades. 👍
Klipsch just needs to put Danny on a design retainer at this point...
They still sell hundreds of speakers so they will have a cult following even if they sound like poop.
I doubt they even watch his show
@asterixx6878 let's hear about your speaker design expertise and experience .........🥱
How can you expect Klipsch owners to appreciate these mods when they bought crap to begin with and liked it !!
Like Yogi Berra once said, “It’s like deja vu all over again!”
I like the 'english' sound. I guess it is more tweeter extensive. Allthough I've been recommended Snell, which is American.
Great video, always enjoy seeing how you improve these speakers. On that note, I was wondering how long it's been since you measured your reference speakers in the background, and can they measure differently over long periods of time due to many different factors, including burn in etc.?
They don't change in regard to measured frequency response. They stay really stable for many years.
@@dannyrichie9743 👍
Klipsch, just send me your entire line.... an every other company too.
I have two RP-280Fs I bought last year. They are used for the surround, powered by an Emotiva BasX 3. Do you have a " kit " to improve them?
Would love you to test a some La Scala speakers
I did test and measure some. They were among the worst measuring speakers that I have ever measured.
I'll have to wait for the rp 280f upgrade 😂 unless i can use the rp8000f upgrade?
Great speakers at low volume, anything louder your ears want to escape the room.
Any videos or future demos for SVS? I’m looking to upgrade next year and have read good things? Any info? Thx
I designed an upgrade for their top models already.
Ever considered gluing porcelain floor tiles to the inside walls of cabinets? They don't cost much and I'd think the combination of ultra-stiff and pretty flexible would be a good combination.
Industrial floor tiles are better. However, after the gluing it in, then finding open cell foam, cutting it, and gluing it in, it's easier to just use No Rez and No Rez is much more effective.
I'm hoping this is just a joke.
@@alrio8102 Explain
@@alrio8102 Did youtube eat my last comment? explain?
They shoot for max sensitivity as a priority. Louder is Klipsch's main identifier in the market. The 2&1/2 way approach is smoother but it took out 3dB SPL. Halved an amplifier's power utilization in other words. Ain't incompetent or naive the original engineering they just choose rougher over quieter.
Hey Danny. How many degrees do you reckon a 4” vertical movement equals at 1 meter?
Well, let's see. They are about 80 degrees out of phase on tweeter axis and about 180 degrees out of phase 8" up.
hi Danny, I'd love you to grab a pair of the older RF7 mk1's for building kits for them. You have done the mk11 and mk111 so doing the ones would finish up the line nicely lol. i'd send you mine but shipping them from Canada would be more money than i want to know.
I've only designed upgrades for the 11's and 111's.
Any chance of designing some for the 1's? I know you need measurements to go off or examples in house. If i can't send mine and unless someone drops off theirs, is it possible for me to take measurements of mine with something like the UMIK 1 microphone? Thanks again @@dannyrichie9743
Hi guys, I have a pair of Klipsch the Nines. Is there are location you would direct me to build my own crossover to make the Nines passive , since I'm sure the lovely speakers will outlast the internal amplifiers, and they are just lovely speakers.
I assume the larger drivers are not physically isolated from each other in this speaker cabinet? Low pass filtering the upper woofer to the tweeter cross-over high pass frequency (2.2khz?) still plays nice with the lower woofer which is low pass filtered also, probably 400hz? I can use your idea on my Klipsch KSF10.5 (crossovers disconnected) which I am driving with an AV receiver fed audio from LR4 crossovers in software. Thanks!
I have a set of gen one Cornwalls with the original crossover and drivers. I purchased these new in box in 1982.. Have you done a sonic analysis of these and recommendations for improvements to the drivers and /or crossover.
I have not worked on that model.
Were you able to modify a pair and do some before and after listening?
We only got sent one speaker, so we rarely get that opportunity, doubly so as we don't install the upgrades in house. we do the design work then den the customer their speaker along with the parts for the pair. We have done before/after with the 600M a couple years ago.
I can’t send mine as were 3.000 kms away 😅
618€ for a new pair. 🇩🇪 and just the same for the upgrade. Klipsch whats going wrong??
if you where to buy a speaker that can be identical on all channels minus the center channel & Sub's of course , for a 7.2.6 speaker surround setup. choosing (3) different ((( 1st, 2nd , 3rd place ))) pre-build's & (3) D.I.Y from Part Express what would you're recommendations be. can you include 3 chooses from both category's.
As a quick and dirty temporary fix/experiment could you just turn these things upside down? - Presume a short stand and an acoustically absorbent floor might be necessary.
You could, but the floor reflection becomes a problem at that point creating comb filtering issues as it's not delayed in time enough.
Hey Klipsch - you can do this and then maybe sell modified speakers using GR kits as a 'premium' service. I know I would pay.
its just insane bad design, the old mighty klipisch cant even put there drivers in phase. wtf is upo with that. i always have hit or miss with how you think about audio. some things i dontagree on but i still like looking at your videos and this is an example. they screwed up big time ! thanks for the video, looks much much better !
Send him some of your planars and see what he thinks about them 😅
Hey Danny what do you think about German Speaker maker CANTON , for me they are plenty good speaker !
I have not had any of their products sent in yet.
@@dannyrichie9743 would be interesting.. it's one of the oldest and biggest european brands.
i live in italy and its costs me to much ship you my speakers.
I have some RP-6000F Mk2 I could send ya. I see only the older RP-6000F on the GR website 😀
You can if you want.
Danny you are a phenomenal crossover guru.Great people are always hated by the masses.Don't let the negative rantings of the envious detractors irk you.
Most of these crossover designers couldn't do a good execution even if you yourself beat it into their heads with a sledgehammer.
Fix the Elac fc249.0 or elac cc241.0 anyone? ❤
Or just stop buying Klipsch 🤷♂️
Why do people buy them? They don't sound good and I don't even think they look good. I really dislike those copper colored drivers. And I don't like horns.
Do you think the RF & the RP lines would be better if they used another horn tweeter and let the horn in there now do the duties of a mid-range 🤔 yes a 3 way
I could not make it bast the opening batch rant...
Has he ever done a loud speaker designed for a club or a venue?
Small ones.
What amazes me is how many buy this speaker and expect decent results given the fact you've been doing these videos for quite some time. I do have a hypothesis however, name recognition, cheep, and naïve reviewers....
When you speak of the tweeter not being in phase, is it out of phase with the woofers at mid frequencies?
Out of phase at the crossover point.
@@dannyrichie9743
So the tweeter's lower response is being canceled by the woofer''s higher response which is out of phase. Is that what causes the big dip between about 1k and 2.3k?
I always thought Klipsch designed the speakers this way to have a strong low end and a bright high end. It seems many people prefer this type of inaccurate sound. (not me)
Does the tweeter's position in the box affect this issue? Should it be farther from the woofers.
@@swinde Yes, it is the offset in time that causes the out of phase issue there at the crossover point. Moving the drivers further away will make it much worse. We've corrected this issue the new crossover.
@@dannyrichie9743
In that case I guess the crossover component values moved the tweeter response to match the woofers natural output? Do you think Klipsch put that in to cause a dip in the midrange to please people that like the bright and bassy sound? With this response curve, sometimes a female vocalist can almost drop out of the mix. An example would be the Pozo Seco Singers from the 60s and 70s.
@@swinde No, they have not put in a dipped area to achieve any particular sound. It was a result of poor engineering. Once we pointed out the time domain error (phase problem) they went back to the drawing board and redesigned their whole product time to fix that issue as it was a problem with nearly all of their models.
Yeah you should hire you that's for sure I have bought a pair of 8000s and resold them before I heard you guys down there I would have bought one of your kids but yeah they definitely need some work thanks
Can’t the manufacturer measure and do this? Can’t be that hard. I mean props to Danny but I could probably learn how to do this in an afternoon
Learning how to measure them is not that hard to learn. How to correct it takes longer than an afternoon.
they made some improvements with the "series II" of their RP line, which fixed the phase issues, but they kept the tweeters boosted above the mids and bass.
@@dannyrichie9743 for sure. But knowing they’re out of phase is kind of step one I would think
Proof..!! that you cannot detect problem when you judge sound by ears
Alright alright i will send you a new Polk Lsim 703 but its not broken in yet !! (New) Maybe you can get some sparkle outof them' i still 💘 them '
My klipsch RP-280FA i dont know to hate them or love them....smfh
I think it's safe to say that NO ONE listens with their head on the floor.
I don't know about that, if you've just laid down your hard earned on a pair of RP's then there's every chance you might be curled up in the fetal position a few minutes after wiring them up.
I've just upgraded from a pair of 5000f's to the 8000f ii's because I figured Danny would never bother getting around to a kit for these. *Doh!*
Worse still, I've so far found the 8000f ii's to be pretty underwhelming and I'm second guessing my decision.
This kit is actually pretty appealing darn it, hmmm... waiting to see a kit for the 8000f ii. Would happily send mine but I think postage from Australia might be a bit much.
A lot of buyer's remorse with klipsch speakers; very impressive in the showroom for 5-15 minutes, then at home you realize everything has the same colouration, then the penny drops.
Couldn't you just swap the leads on the tweeter to bring them in phase?
No because they are not 180 out, more like 90 degrees. Also with the lower woofer also crossing into the tweeter it will never be right.
It raises the question, then: why did Klipsch wire them out-of-phase? Klipsch has engineers, and one would assume they have a QA procedure. I understand cheap parts in the crossover. There's a lot of pressure to keep costs down, and the average purchaser probably won't notice? But you'd think someone at Klipsch would listen and say, "That doesn't sound quite right."
@@curtiscroulet8715 They weren't wired out of phase. The problem is the offset of the drivers and needing to design a crossover that takes that offset into account and gives a proper phase angle that will keep them in phase over a wide range.
Also, it appears that Klipsch did not invest enough in the design stage to make sure these elements were correct.
Well, it leaves one wondering about the discussions at Klipsch prior to someone saying, "It's good enough! Ship it!"
If you were a prospective customer, the version 1's (RP-8000) are about 50% off right now so I am tempted to get those and then the upgrades. Are the version 2's a better start? IN other words, should I fork over the cash for those now and then wait for your upgrades to be available? Thanks!
Honestly, they both need an upgrade to make them listenable.
@@dannyrichie9743 So save the money and get the older version, thanks!
@@asterixx6878 We've made it easy.
@@dannyrichie9743 yeah okay 😂
@@Artguitars Or just start over and build one of our DIY kits (our speakers) and have much better performance across the board.
So out of phase. How many reviewers who have been around for a long time. Just don’t seem to know or can hear this common problem. Witch makes me believe they work for or I think. They don’t want to hear the problem!
If you make your own speakers , they won't be any worse than a lot of the trash that's sold today.
Maybe the resulting issue is a result of Klipsch building the speaker to a target budget. Those speakers cost $1k a pair. To fix the issue would cost $539. The question is, can Danny fix the issue within the same budget as klipsch maybe $25 - $50 and not $539?
@@flargosa Klipsch intentionally makes them sound the way they do. They could for the exact same price make them sound the way Danny Does. It has NOTHING to do with budget at all. He is not actually fixing them, but simply deriving a FLATTER response, where as Klipsch is making them intentionally NOT flat. Do you truly believe Klipsch is not aware of what they are doing...lol?
@@kevintomb So you believe no compromises were made designing to a target price?
would you recommend the 8000f?
If you own it and want to keep it then I have an upgrade that fixes them. If you don't own them, then I do not recommend them.
@@dannyrichie9743 I want to buy the mark ii version. So what problem do they have?
@@MasterofPlay7 from the measurements I've seen, they fixed the phase issues, but the tweeter still boosted by ~3dB, so they will still sound quite bright, especially on-axis. and a few reviewers have mentioned that they are a little thin in the bass and need to be kept near the front walls.
@@hoth2112 yea that's what I'm afraid of, bright speakers.... The bass should sound big I mean that's their top of the line speakers....
@@MasterofPlay7 They changed the order of the crossover to shift the drivers back in phase. They still use the same cheesy parts, steel parts in the binding posts, lightly constructed cabinets that have resonance issues..... If you haven't already bought them. There are better options.
I'm calling on US subscribers to send Danny a pair of ATC SCM40 V2's.
I've measured quite a few of their speakers. The drivers are very good, and they typically measure very well.
🤔Do speaker manufacturers let the customer’s desire for aesthetics fault the proper design of the speaker cabinet and/or baffle ??
Klipsch, take Danny's offer. You won't regret it.
Vert good job.
But there is no free lunch : you loose some sensitivity !
From my point of view, it is prefered to have a linear response and less sensitive than the reverse.
But let say this is klipch market to have high sensitivity speakers.
You do not LOSE sensitivity, the response "Before" was simply overly strong in the mids and highs. The bass was several decibels below the mids and highs. I think we agree!
@@kevintomb from commercial point of view, tout loose sensitivity. 😅
it's the Amazon audio buyers.
klipsch marketed to the right buyers.
Today, with free Software and a 1000$ to2000$ of Hardware every diy-Guy can measure the time lag of a chassis easily. Either they're all on woke science or they just don't care. No Love.
What is woke sience?
@@northa4021 Men can get pregnant.
Just dont buy Klisch speakers, buy some other speakers and be happy. Whats wrong with you people?
Why can’t you just say what you like?? I feel every video you make is always speaking about how disappointed you are.
He does, but most of the speakers we get sent by customers who aren't happy with their performance. We've gotten some where they actually measure pretty well but only need some small tweaks or improvements in parts quality. A couple ATCs and a high-end Revel both were pretty good from the factory.
Its not his fault that Klipsch cant competently design a single speaker.
These videos are about speakers that were sent to them BECAUSE they sound bad or off...what do you want him to say? "The customer was disappointed with the sound, and these measure terrible...but holy f**k, do I love them! Gonna send them back just as they are and ask the customer if he is drunk!"
Because these videos are not about what he likes.
Hahaha how stupid could be the situation .No one use his hears ? No one has a decent source for his speakers?No one can t made a difference between speakers ? Really ,all customers ar use measurements,to see how solid is the cabbinet ? Wtf .....Music is pure listening ,you don t need an osciloscope while you listen Bach,Mozzart or ABBA you don t need to see all curves ,half of all from the whole world don t know how are looking all of this.Clips like this are made for stupid people who can t choose for himselfs and allways need a f....advice or acceptance from old bothered man who s za best in town and can criticizes a work of a great company like Klipsch .I would like if he can made the same shit with Focal ,Gryphon,Magico,Dali Kore and many more or this are to famous to be like .If you re greater like you pretrend ,why you don t have your own speakers company and let us after to criticize your job,your company,your people who work for you and see .When your company will gain age,prizes like Klipsch ,we will see how good engineer you are .
Klipsch is decidedly mid-if trying to pretend it’s Hifi. I had to return the products i bought.
Let’s just stop sugarcoating it, Klipsch just sucks and is terribly overrated 😮💨
crappy speakers.
I wouldn't have Klipsch even if it were free ..literally giving them away ...garbage drivers and horns that sound like dying cats
How loud can one expect a speaker like that to get? 105-110db?
I would never try to listen to them that loud.
@ 90 db Dangerous over 30 minutes. what are you taking about?
@@hom2fu Thats funny because 95db is my "comfortably loud" listening volume. I listen for hours at a time. If I want to get LOUD then I go to 110 plus db. I have taken my speakers to 115db.
@@freeradical6390no way no how for every 3db increase in spl you double the power you must have a BIG amplifier
@@handlemyname well I can hit 115db plus with my speakers and an Emerald Physics 200.2SE running at 8ohms 200wpc. I dont think 200wpc is that big of an amp. But then, Im also into car audio where 3000 watts isnt a big deal anymore. I just wonder what an average built speaker like those klipsch are meant to do