Danny -I am really glad you are going to provide some sound clips. I completely understand the limitations of doing this but some information for us listeners is better than none. The clips, accompanied by your own thoughts and input, is better than just the measurements, in my opinion. I really believe that better quality parts lead to better sound (assuming a good design) and I would really love to hear more comparisons (especially vs. your own designs). Thanks very much for all your hard work. It is really appreciated.
Nice work!! I'm enjoying these videos more and more. I went to a hifi expo in my hometown this past weekend. I've been waiting for 3 years due to covid cancellations. I have to say that I was disappointed in nearly every system I listened to except for 2. One was valued around $400k and it absolutely rocked in every way. Gryphon, my God you make some equipment! The other was comprised of McIntosh and Sonus Faber, somewhere close to $80k and it was fantastic even though the speakers were lowly in the Sonus Faber range.
Probably the most honest review on these I've seen.. and it's really appreciated. I just received a pair of these today, got them for $449 on black Friday, so I feel pretty good about that purchase, even if they aren't perfect.. next year is wharfedale.. ;)
Can't wait to hear the sound clips, Danny. If what I hear from the speakers do sound better in The A - B comparison I will definitely be purchasing the kit. I'm not very tech savvy but I think I'll be able to figure it out. It'll be a fun little project that I can be proud of. Provided I don't blow the house up in the process 😂
Glad you are considering soundclips. They are obviously not able to give the *absolute* picture about a system, but as long as all else is being equal (the same music/tracks being played, microphone used, volume levels, room, etc.) and the listener uses reasonably good headphones, they do imho still offer the listener an idea about the character of a speaker, i.e. base, brightness, spatial imaging, resolution, etc., especially in A-B comparisons. jmo
I have hyperacusis and bad tinnitus.Any harshness in an audio signal is immediately apparent to me.Immediately apparent becomes discomfort after a short while.My friends that used to own an audio outlet used to use me as a "mine canary"with their systems.I could pick out anything that was not right very quickly.This is why i was looking at purchasing one of your single driver DIY speakers.They will not have the harshness of a tweeter system by default.And the parts you use will smooth them out even more.Thanks and take care Danny.
I purchased these speakers following the SG review and his passion left me really satisfied. It was a no-brainer purchase for me. If anything really positive can be said is that my hifi purchase have continued and taken me to some very surprising places. The dealer has become a friend and is going to open his own business. My research enabled me to obtain high efficiency loudspeakers, new turntable and experiment with vintage amps. I have since bought expensive second hand loudspeakers that I could never have afforded when new. I still have the RP-600M’s. Whatever faults you find they still remain a significant upgrade for many who had simply abandoned this industry altogether. Look out for a good second hand pair and enjoy! Well done Klipsch.
I bought a pair as well back then. I think they really depend on the rest of the system if they are to sound good. I had initially thought they were very fatiguing and almost gave up and then put them in low power system in another room with a tube preamp and they now sound really good.
But these speakers aren't high efficiency as Danny mentioned. Actually no speaker is high efficiency but some are high sensitivity, which these are not. A 102dB sensitive speaker is no more than about 10% efficient. Not very efficient is it?
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt I wasn't speaking to their efficiency really. I was speaking I had a very forward sounding amp, and a very crisp transparent dac in a small room it was harsh. I set up another 'warmer' system which is lower power and they were just right.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt sounds right, excuse the pun. I found some much better loudspeakers with more details, spaciousness, precision without sounding harsh. The RP’s are now in my office with a vintage technics amp and loudness ON
Excited to hear the sound clips! Please, please, PLEASE have the clips synchronized and just transition from one setup to the other so we can more easily hear the differences. Do this and I guarantee people will hear the differences. If you just play one speaker set for a while, then play the other for a while, it won't be as obvious to those of us that don't have as trained ears as you.
@@glengatt3941 What am I going to be disappointed about? I didn't set any expectations for what or how much or whether anyone would like one speaker or the other. I only suggested the method so we could hear *some kind of difference*. I've found this to be extremely helpful when other reviewers have done this. Is it perfect? No. Does it capture everything? No. Will it show a difference if done how I describe. You bet. It will absolutely show relative differences. *That* is all I expect to hear. Since, as Danny put it, what we are able to experience through the recording is only a small percentage of the other differences that can be heard in-person, I'm definitely going to recommend a method that will show the differences in what *can* be heard through RUclips. You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to agree with Danny. I'm not taking any sides. One reason I love audio is that there is plenty of subjectivity. There are so many ways to enjoy it and so many "tastes". Yours is probably different than mine and that's cool.
I'm m not an expert but sometimes you say for example that the problem is the cabinet and the fix is a crossover ,can a bad cabinet be fixed like that, and you sell speakers too have you ever reviewed one of your products? True is that the way you talk about other products or the way just throwed that base driver on the table like is garbage not everyone can just go and spend thousands of € on a pair of speakers I think you do better with just some humbleness, just my opinion
sound clips via your pc etc really only show tonal and detail diffs. its ok but nothing like being there. in that sense i dont give them too much weight when the products are closely matched. soundstage, phase issues, placement within soundstage.. none of that comes thru via you tube. just saying.
I'm really excited to hear the difference between klipsch and the XLR. I just bought a sale set of 600s and probably will purchase the upgrade kit depending on how they sound in my environment lol. But I'm as picky as you on frequency levels. You know back in the day most speaker companies focused on exactly what you do and installed them in good solid cabinets. Today they just fail to build a solid foundation. There units that are built right are just way too expensive to bother with.
Agree !.......when the musical envelope is out of balance , lacks the natural coherence ..and the woofer impedance is only 4 Ohms .... it is a NO NO for me......... Even the sensitivity is a lie !
I would never buy fully-assembled or kit-build speakers without the opportunity to first hear them on my system. That leaves out companies that do not have a customer-friendly return policy. I trust my ears, not Klipsch marketing or Danny measurements. Both need to pitch their solutions favorably to make a living. I recently bought the RP-600M ii and it exceeds my expectations in every way. If it hadn't, it would have gone back to Crutchfield. If you don't trust your ears that is a different story. Would anyone marry someone based on the reviews of people who have dated that person before? Or based on their measurements? :) For anyone interested in a good audio match, think of it that way and let your ears rule your decision.
I changed the signal capacitors in my Prima Luna prologue amp to a supposed expensive upgrade paper and oil caps. Although subtle they took away from separation in the mid frequencies but improved on the bass. I was about to sell the amp a year after that because of lack of interest in listening to music. I changed the capacitors back to the originals before selling and the life came back and two years later I still enjoy the sound and am not selling it. The point is the caps can make a subtle but very important difference to the enjoyment of listening
I would never change out the electrolytics in my main amps, they are in their for a reason. However, in phono stages, and speakers I have changed out all my electrolytic capacitors, with paper in oils, and poly caps, and boy oh boy, that is where great gains can be had.
dude, it's a $749 pr of speakers . that's expected from a company that makes speakers for every price point- - a serous listener would pass on these and move on up the speaker chain -
I've heard you guys... Honestly though we do tons of listening comparisons here. I spent all morning doing that. I do understand the need to bring you guys along as best I can, and let everyone in on the listening somehow rather than me just telling you the results. So I am going to try and do that this time.
I adore my Klipsch BUT I completely agree with you! The tweeter is 2-3db louder than the woofer and it sucks 😢 I do love the dynamics of my Klipsch R-51m and the off axis performance from the wave guide but Klipsch needs to replace the metal cone woofer with a stiff compliance paper coned woofer and focus more on the presentation of the midrange rather than the higher frequencies.
I enjoy the Klipsch boost on the high end. As someone who suffers from some hearing loss in that upper mid and treble area I find myself always adjusting the tone control or EQ up (if there is one). Flat response speakers are smooth sounding, but they always sound a little dull to me.
Well said, Bloozestringer. I enjoy the Klipsch sound, too. Klipsch has that assertive, energetic sound; that is also dynamic. Furthermore, Klipsch loud speakers are one of the few speakers available that also has the performance of having a mid-level bass to a playback of most recordings! Klipsch speakers are designed that way so that even bookshelf speakers, small, or very large can reproduce lower bass than other speakers; since they are at an SPL of over 90dB. I am NOT saying any Klipsch bookshelf speakers have very low bass! Although it appears that there is an illusion of lower bass, it actually is, and cannot be there; a woofer driver has to be a minimum of 6, 8, actually 10 inches in diameter. Most likely a Sub-woofer of 10 inch diameter is the only way to get very deep bass; and if you've got plenty of amplification-power there is are sub-woofers that are 12 in. size.🔉🎵
Interesting. I have an older set of towers and yes the tweeters were always harsh, it's how I came upon them, a friend of mine couldn't deal with it..... I use them for av. But, I happened upon an AVI amp and it really brought the bottom end in line with the treble. Still not the best I've heard, but it is a factor.
They're decent in the time ive had them up playing, but they're too bright for me, especially with any sort of tow-in. I'm quite ensitive to any boosts in the 1-3KHz range, so rebalancing them will make them much more enjoyable over their stock performance, especially at louder levels.
@@sptauto I spent an evening reading reviews, bought an 8 speaker set; it arrived in 2 days, and works great. I don’t watch that much tv anymore, so it wasn’t a major decision. I also love the new Denon receiver as well.
Awesome Video man!!! Thank you for sharing!! I was wondering if you could do a Video on the Yamaha NS-10s monitors please! Are they only good for mixing or are they also good for enjoying music??? Thanks a lot!!! Cheers from Denver, CO.
I just spent six hours with my son listening to all kinds of music on his Gen 1 RP-600Ms. We had a great time; they sounded great. That’s not to say they sounded accurate, just great - without A/B, it would’ve been hard to tell. All I know is, they were really really fun.
A lot of people love them, they sell very well. Not my type of speaker but all that matters is that you and your son do. Nice bonding moment listening to music with your boy 👍
Also coming late to the party, first of all, thanks a lot for these reviews. Even if I tend to disagree here and there, I still learn a lot, and that's what matters. Somebody may have asked this before - as it is an obvious question: why do you think Klipsch designed and sold a speaker with such notable dip at 1.5 kHz (first version)? I assume they were well aware of this fact, and I also assume that they have engineers how probably came up with a similar alternative filter design as you presented. Still, they ended with the "dipped" version. Do you think they presented different versions to some test-listeners, and maybe some thought that the dip in this frequency range actually sounded softer or more accommodating? I know that lowering the frequency in the 1-2 kHz range is not uncommon for that very reason.
They don't go through anything like that during the design process. No company throws a design out there like the first 600M on purpose. They got killed for it and had to go back to the drawing board and fix the problems. The result is the new version.
With headphone mods I have done I have used modeling clay to add mass to the drivers and cups to help with the response and resonances. For the port resonances you mentioned, do you think adding mass with that method would help? Or would it just shift the resonance frequency?
It would have to be something viscous to effectively damp cabinet walls - it has to change mechanical energy into something else, say heat. Port resonance depends mainly on ports dimensions and a bit on the shape. I guess it's location might have some influence. Of course internal cabinet resonance might leak through the port as well.
Great work as usual ! ;) But i am thinking why don't you build a diy speaker "à la klispch" with better drivers ? It would be a big step UP for those who like sensitive Horn speakers...
Since these type of Klipsch speakers are mass-produced and distributed, there may be a lucrative opportunity for someone to offer 3D printed crossover boards to go with these GR-Research upgrade kits. That would save a lot of time in these upgrades. When I upgraded my B&W CDM-1NT speakers, most of my time was spent on layout and and building the boards so that they would fit inside the enclosures.
I think people want wonky speakers that only work well with certain recording balances. It's not like you didn't know. That said, having issues at @1Khz is not good/inexcusable.
Nice work, maybe the best on RUclips, parts matter %98, I had a high end Denon receiver and I was impressed, now I have a Sony ES receiver and I'm blown away by the sound quality, all because Sony ES uses much better Japanese parts 😮
Very good lecture, demonstration, and a thorough explanation of the new version of the Klipsch 600M; the 600M Version 2 loudspeakers. I'm glad I watched this video presentation about the new Klipsch 600M II Speakers. Thumbs up. I subscribed to your channel a month ago. I'm glad I did not buy that original version of the Klipsch 600M. Certainly most parts, and an alteration for another version can make a difference; and maybe make a vast improvement to the sound! Not much of an argument on what you have expressed, Randy. However, Steve Guttenberg communicated, and explained that this Klipsch - the original 600M was very good; maybe not excellent, but these large bookshelf speakers by Klipsch performed well, and were efficient! Here is an audiophile, and music fan who does not have anything to do with Snake Oil! Therefore, I do not completely understand, and coherently appreciate this discrepancy concerning the performance of these Klipsch speakers. Furthermore, maybe that Klipsch pair of speakers is a defective copy. Have you tried testing, and analyzing another pair of Klipsch 600Ms? As you know it's a process of the Scientific Method; anyhow, more analysis for absolute certainty. As you are well aware, and as almost everybody in this forum knows, Klipsch speakers have that reputation, and tonality of an assertive, energetic sound! That's the way these speaker manufacturers, designers, engineering department, management make these speakers. Correct me if I'm wrong, and very misguided! Then why aren't there plenty of music fans complaining, or remarking about the sound of music from Klipsch speakers that does not sound good, or have above than average performance? Isn't it a bit peculiar. Anyhow, maybe it was better that I did not buy the Klipsch 600M. Instead, over a year ago I purchased a pair of Klipsch 51Ms, and those book shelf speakers sound pretty good connected my second audio system; a harman kardon 490i Receiver 30W, high current. I also connected an Odd, used Rega Planar 3 Turntable whereby I installed a Linn Basik Plus tonearm with phono RCA cable, three longer hexagon machine screws, drive belt, motor suspension belt, and dust cover. Phono cartridge that I mounted is a new Audio Technica AT95E MM. Recently I've got to solder in a new capacitor. Sounds pretty good, and correct to me. Glad, and fortunate I'm a music fan, and audiophile second. 🔉🎵🎶
Our measurements on the original 600M are very similar to testing done by others reviewers, (Audio Science Review and Erin's Audio Corner) that are worth looking into, and have very similar, and often more detailed than our own measurements.
I don't know if there is really anything to complain about. For long listening sessions you either love it or hate the Klipsch sound. When I was younger it didn't bother me as much, I just wanted loud. I definitely prefer a much more neutral frequency response from my speakers these days. Majority of mass market speakers in this price range, and higher $ range, have cheap internal parts. The sound is only "wrong" If you don't like it. People that don't like this sound don't buy them, so nothing to complain about. Many people don't like speakers with a flat frequency response, even if it's made with all the best parts. Shouldn't take it personal if an engineer or reviewer craps all over a pair of speakers you like. With amplifiers/electronics I think parts and build are much more important than your speaker sound preference. GR Research just points out certain flaws with speakers and if you think yours need an improvement or you want a change in sound they offer a remedy...for a price. Usually that price is cheaper than buying a new set of speakers. Plus some people enjoy the thought of building something to make it sound different. If it sounds better is your opinion
Audiophiles seem to like a upwards shift in the upper medium/high frequency range ( also with some cartridges like many AT's ) ................used to be fooled ..........natural sounds aren't anything like these .......one must unlearn before learning .... As soon as you experience listening fatigue you should know that a lot of things go wrong even with VERY expensive high end material...
@@NosEL34 Yes, I understand further now, thank you for responding, and your explanation, M W. I also forgot to include the word Loud; another word to describe the characteristic of the Klipsch sound. Could be that there are audiophiles who are mostly rock & roll fans, as it goes with Cerwin Vega speakers, too. If that is the case, anyhow.🔉🎵
Hi, after seeing a lot of you're video, I would like to see one with an old vintage speaker like the Celestion Ditton 44 or Celestion Ditton 44 series 2. I've got a pair of Ditton series 2 and I've alredy upgrade the crossover with good parts and I'm curious about how would you handle these ones .
Oddly enough, that system could do well with a second woofer wired in series. Add roughly 3db to the woofer output while evening out the impedance with the tweeter. And they could possibly back off the woofer's crossover point to eliminate some stored energy.
A pair of 500C II would be a more interesting alternative, keeping the acoustic centers closer together, making them MTM bookshelves without having to worry about their off-axis response. Not sure how much it would improve their effeciency though.
i hould love for you to do a pair of jamo s803. just because i have a pair and would to see where they stack up and what you would do to them. thanks for all the work you guys do have a great day.
It would be great to see GR-Research designing improvement kits for the Klipsch Heritage line; I just got a pair of Forte IVs and, to my ears,they sound great but I really cannot say anything about how they measure…
We'll work on most anything if someone sends them in. So far noone has sent any of the newer models in. Most of it comes down to shipping costs for large/heavy speakers. The only heritage speakers we've had in were the Forte III and the LaScala. The later we didn't design an upgrade for.
I think the heritage line are designed to be specially euphonic and are as they are. I personally would not mess with those. But still?? It would be interesting
@@BatMan-to8im Those that have done the upgrade for the Forte III were really happy with the results after the. But those big cabinets really need some bracing to clean up the boxy sound especially in the bass and vocal range. Some really like the boxy sound but for us, it's pretty tough to look past.
I believe if you email him, he makes exactly what you're looking for. His website is crap for upgrades lists as he said he doesn't have the time to keep it updated so you have to call or email
i.knew when Danny mentioned about opening the back of Sandy's golden ear amt tweeters he knew his shit.. I have audiovector s and the highs are awesome.. I trust his take much more the the people who review speakers who have been working at retail.stores or have no background in any engineering of any sort they are all late to the movie ...Erin is another good one for sure! not that there isn't good enough sound on the cheap today but I would not put my money on most of these men for the best sound for dollars...
That is because they use a polarity flip to make them acoustically in phase and sum properly. Previous Klipsch models had drivers that acoustically were not in phase and had a hole in the response.
I understand better designed electronics may make graph more leanier (and sound charactersictics better depending on each one taste). But not clear how without changing the cabinet and especially the drivers, one can remove all its shortcomings. I find mostly it boils to one's taste... and each design has its strengths and weaknesses. But, inspite of so many requests, why don't you show the differences. In several channels, with proper headset we can surely hear the differences... But many thanks to your feedbacks which help manufacturers to improve their design/quality and stay competitive.
Parts quality used will have a huge impact on clarity, detail, resolution, etc. So it is much more then just correcting amplitude problems. Recording those before and after in a way that you can hear them over a RUclips video is pretty challenging, but we are working on it.
@@dannyrichie9743 thank you so much. Looking forward for comparison which helps to get feel on the major differences like details, tonality etc. (understand may not show in full the improvements on sound stage etc).
Strange that the rp-600m speakers were so well received by reviewers when they came out, I have a pair of rp-160m that I rather like :) nice video as always
Would you recomend the RP-500M II or the RP-600M II as SL/R in a 7.2.4 setup? I already have the florrstanding Klipsch RP-6000F II and the Klipsch RP-404C II in the center.
I think I'll find a vintage good-looking console stereo, say an old Curtis Mathes system. Looks great in the family room and fun to listen to music again. Instead of listening to where the sound is, I'll just enjoy music and skip the measurements. Thanks
Yeah, takes me back to when I was a kid, lying on the living room floor with my head centered between the speakers of our 1970 Magnavox console, spinning my Allman Bros. albums. Right there on the floor with my head buried in the mud...the muddy sound. "Live at Fillmore East" sounded more like "Stuck Outside The Fillmore Without a Ticket", but I didn't know any better till I could afford my own Radio Shack "Realistic" hifi system for my room. Then I smiled, and bought more records.
Hi from Germany, YT Snake Oil Audio mentioned your channel and he's completly right: You are making a real good job! Coming from PA I just start into the HiFi section as a hobby developer for speakers. My idea is to use an active crossover to develope the speaker. Do you have experiences with the difference in sound between active and passive crossovers doing the same job with the same speaker? Since I don't have any more records, the AD converter shouldn't be a problem.
Commercially available active crossovers use textbook slopes. So they don't take into account the acoustic output of the speaker. So in general they are pretty hit and miss and mostly miss. You also have to deal with coloration from Op-amps and A/C power supplies. Unless the active crossover is a top level design built specifically for a speaker then I'd stay away from them.
There are some differences to the drivers, cabinet and the waveguide that may need to be account for, but that will probably be a starting point to see how different the changes are from the original.
Thank you. The truth will set us free. I had the RP600M. BEFORE I saw your upgrade video. I found that they were too harsh for nearfield, and did in fact lose midrange/tweeter resolve due to that massive dip in the crossover point. Second: I have upgraded many speakers. Electrolytics in the signal path guarantee nothing more than mediocre sound and degradation in as little as 3 years. I use only metallized poly 1 or 5%. Just that change alone is very prominent in clarity. People don't realize how easy cheap electrolytic caps saturate- especially the tweeter. The 600MII has been hyped as the perfection of the sound, and the reviews strike me as exaggeration.
Danny, please consider hiring a recording engineer with a binaural Neumann KU 100 dummy head, GML preamps, and high end Lynx/Crane Song/RME/Prism converters to get a true binaural sound from the sweet spot in your listening room. With this, you’d greatly increase that 20% of differences to be heard on headphones. A listener on a nice but even low priced pair like the Status CB-1 would be able to get a much better feel for the differences than other speaker demo recording methods, which are often haphazard at best. Measurement mics in ORTF at the sweet spot can do a decent job, but for a serious listening endeavor, I’d recommend the above. Just this experienced audiophile recordist/mastering engineer’s 10 cents.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Nothing illogical about it. Purely the science of acoustics. No recording of a speaker is going to represent the original space, transient response, etc., and bringing stereo fields into this convolutes the issue. Binaural is not stereo. It is the absence of spatial interaction and cancellation that can only be experienced in headphones. This is why and how headphone studio mixing room simulations exist with some level of success. Is it a perfect 1:1? Not by any stretch. But it can give you far more spatial realism and depth, tonal responsiveness, representing the original system and space, magnified by the quality of the headphones and preampfification. Say you mic two speakers directly, right and left, with measurement mics. Playing this back on any type of system will completely destroy any imaging and staging in the recorded system. Now, say you take my suggestion for a quality binaural recording, but you instead play it back over a speaker system rather than decent to great headphones - the imaging will completely fall apart on speakers, due to cancellations and interactions in the stereo field, in contrast to being fairly accurately reproduced spatially within a binaural (headset) system, where there is no crosstalk between drivers, placed directly over/by your ears. There’s a reason high end binaural microphones like the Neumann KU 100 and others exist. The 1:1 reproduction would be the most transparent headset and signal chain possible. Recording with this and playing back on speakers, like you’ll hear from many “player position” virtual instruments recorded using this mic, will sound interesting perhaps, depending on the placement in a mix, but not at all representing the actual position and staging like headphones produce. And to clarify, I’m not making an argument for headphones over speakers at all - this is simply to say that headphones are binaural in their spatial representation, whereas speakers are stereo. Trying to “put you in the room” with a speaker demo? Binaural in and out is the best way to perform this cloudy and dismal endeavor 🙂
DMark2 The budget speaker is just the vehicle used to deliver a message about how cheap parts hold back speakers. He’s cracked open plenty of +2K models that have the same cheesy parts in them. As consumers we should be more concerned about pretty boxes filled with crap than Danny’s videos.
Have a question - You speak of theses Klipsch speakers as being "out of phase", how does that problem show up in the hearing of the speaker? What do I hear when speakers are out of phase? Can you clearify so I know what I'm listening for when it comes to speaker phase? Thanks.
Do you have any like objective testing or measurements that show the specific effects different parts, whether "higher or lower" quality parts do to the sound of the speaker. maybe you can quiet people saying that there is no effect by proving there is one
Hi, what do you think of the old Klipsch RP-160M? Given my budget I would like to buy them. Or, in the same price range, the Kef Q150, or other brands. You can give me an advice? I trust your judgement, you are very prepared. Thank you.
Bought a pair. Had them for a week and returned them. I kept staring at the tweeter while I was listening. In the box they went. Wanted to like them but oh well. I did hear what you did with Ron's pair and I could hear the difference. They were much cleaner 👍
That's been my same thought, even towed out, they still draw too much attention to themselves, but I'm still gunna enjoy them until it's time for us to upgrade them. Then I'll enjoy them even more. :P
Hey Danny, just letting you know there is something up with your website if you weren't already aware. Links are not working, domain seems to be highjacked??
Why is the gr research website offline? I decided today was the day to buy the rp600 upgrade kits and suddenly I can’t find gr research on the web at all.
At those price points just about everything out there is loaded with the cheapest parts possible. If you want quality for the same price points you can have it, but only building it from one of our DIY kits.
Those two speakers are really different. Almost apples and oranges, I love things like that, used to work in a stereo store and we would experiment with often wildly different equipment and find what we liked for different types of music and budgets.
"Parts quality" definitely matters. I design and build guitar amps (tube and solid state) and also dabble in hifi speaker enclosures. Like most people, I started out using cheap components. And like most things in life, it's a compromise... price vs quality. I have made an A/B comparison with an amplifier where the only difference was the brand of the capacitors in the signal path. The difference was amazing.... I will say that higher price does not always mean better. There are plenty of diamonds in the rough out there. Also, there is a time and place for cheap parts. But in the end you have to decide what you will be the most happy with... With your ears and your wallet! Looking forward to watching some more videos. I just discovered this channel today!!
I would love an a/b test of the same crossover but with”quality” parts. If they have the same values they should sound the same, basic physics. Prove it makes a difference.
Absolutely he should so this. However, if he is actually reworking the crossover frequencies and reversing the phase on the tweeters, then that should be easily audible. People do buy these for the V-shaped sound signature though, so "correcting" it with 300-400$ worth of parts makes no sense, as you should have just bought Polk Reserves or something else nuetral with that 1200$ you've now invested. I have a set of RP160ms that run in the B channel on my system, an AXR100 driving some vintage Jamo Concert 11 towers, and I like to switch over and listen to them when I am streaming lofi on youtube or some other lossy-format poorly mixed music(2000s Rock comes to mind). They don't reveal the suck inherent in bad recordings, and make some of my favorite songs sound like nails on a chalkboard.
Exactly, it really makes me shake my head when these people put sound tracks of two different speakers in the same system cause you can't actually hear the full difference without being in the actual room! And on top of that there is nothing else on the video except the music sound tracks!
And you're listening to them on X playback device which is potentially coloring and most certainly altering the sound as well. I don't think the demos are completely useless however you're not hearing the gear as you would in person so it does beg the "what's the point" question to some extent. I've also watched a number of them where comments gravitate to the brighter tipped up speaker and they declare the apparent clarity as the higher quality. Yet I know in room that some of those speakers are going to be far less enjoyable over hours of high volume listening compared to something that may sound veiled or rolled off in comparison during the sound clip. If you're inexperienced, those clips will probably just lead you more astray. Nothing can replace living with and experiencing gear first hand.
I more or less agree with this, except klipsch is supposed to be a high end brand how much price difference is a brass nut going to be that they can’t use them instead of steel maybe a few cents per hundred. I own 6 rp 280’s as my surround and a 64III center channel that’s not a cheap setup they can afford some better quality parts in their stuff at the prices they charge.
Regarding the woofer, you said it’s identical all marketing, but they supposedly added aluminum shorting rings and a voice coil that’s 70% larger. You say parts matter, but different parts matter more than others, how important is a bigger voice coil? and what is even a shorting ring?
I can't confirm if they changed anything internally on the woofer or not. Shorting rings lower the inductance of the woofer coil and can lower distortion.
According to Steve Guttenburg's review, IIRC, the only difference is the addition of a Faraday Shorting Ring, also called Flux Modulation Rings, which in my understanding serve to reduce inductance, reduce distortion and make a driver more linear when more power is used.
Room correction software can only help so much. Really you want to get your room to a good state, using treatments. Than use room correction software. Room corrections software when it has to correct too much does not sound great in my opinion
Danny -I am really glad you are going to provide some sound clips. I completely understand the limitations of doing this but some information for us listeners is better than none. The clips, accompanied by your own thoughts and input, is better than just the measurements, in my opinion. I really believe that better quality parts lead to better sound (assuming a good design) and I would really love to hear more comparisons (especially vs. your own designs). Thanks very much for all your hard work. It is really appreciated.
Great to hear sound clips coming, will be a game changer for the channel imo.
Thanks for the review. Nice details.
Nice work!! I'm enjoying these videos more and more. I went to a hifi expo in my hometown this past weekend. I've been waiting for 3 years due to covid cancellations. I have to say that I was disappointed in nearly every system I listened to except for 2. One was valued around $400k and it absolutely rocked in every way. Gryphon, my God you make some equipment! The other was comprised of McIntosh and Sonus Faber, somewhere close to $80k and it was fantastic even though the speakers were lowly in the Sonus Faber range.
Hi Danny thoroughly enjoy watching these vids. It really shows up some of these manufacturers.
Probably the most honest review on these I've seen.. and it's really appreciated. I just received a pair of these today, got them for $449 on black Friday, so I feel pretty good about that purchase, even if they aren't perfect.. next year is wharfedale.. ;)
Good to see you, Danny, my Pedest'ale Tower speakers are sounding great.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Danny 👍🏾😎
Just bought these , cant wait for your upgrade kit!
Can't wait to hear the sound clips, Danny. If what I hear from the speakers do sound better in The A - B comparison I will definitely be purchasing the kit. I'm not very tech savvy but I think I'll be able to figure it out. It'll be a fun little project that I can be proud of. Provided I don't blow the house up in the process 😂
Glad you are considering soundclips. They are obviously not able to give the *absolute* picture about a system, but as long as all else is being equal (the same music/tracks being played, microphone used, volume levels, room, etc.) and the listener uses reasonably good headphones, they do imho still offer the listener an idea about the character of a speaker, i.e. base, brightness, spatial imaging, resolution, etc., especially in A-B comparisons. jmo
I have hyperacusis and bad tinnitus.Any harshness in an audio signal is immediately apparent to me.Immediately apparent becomes discomfort after a short while.My friends that used to own an audio outlet used to use me as a "mine canary"with their systems.I could pick out anything that was not right very quickly.This is why i was looking at purchasing one of your single driver DIY speakers.They will not have the harshness of a tweeter system by default.And the parts you use will smooth them out even more.Thanks and take care Danny.
Man u are like the speaker guru! I luv hearing your expertise 👍❤️
Nice breakdown .
Thanks Randy 👍🏻
awsome cant wait for the sound clips
Great video. I am looking forward to the comparisons
Looking forward to seeing this process unfold
Hi Danny I am happy you put the time and effort in to educate us in understanding laud speaker’s so we can get a good sound in your home.
I purchased these speakers following the SG review and his passion left me really satisfied. It was a no-brainer purchase for me. If anything really positive can be said is that my hifi purchase have continued and taken me to some very surprising places. The dealer has become a friend and is going to open his own business. My research enabled me to obtain high efficiency loudspeakers, new turntable and experiment with vintage amps. I have since bought expensive second hand loudspeakers that I could never have afforded when new. I still have the RP-600M’s. Whatever faults you find they still remain a significant upgrade for many who had simply abandoned this industry altogether. Look out for a good second hand pair and enjoy! Well done Klipsch.
I bought a pair as well back then. I think they really depend on the rest of the system if they are to sound good. I had initially thought they were very fatiguing and almost gave up and then put them in low power system in another room with a tube preamp and they now sound really good.
But these speakers aren't high efficiency as Danny mentioned. Actually no speaker is high efficiency but some are high sensitivity, which these are not. A 102dB sensitive speaker is no more than about 10% efficient. Not very efficient is it?
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt I wasn't speaking to their efficiency really. I was speaking I had a very forward sounding amp, and a very crisp transparent dac in a small room it was harsh. I set up another 'warmer' system which is lower power and they were just right.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt sounds right, excuse the pun. I found some much better loudspeakers with more details, spaciousness, precision without sounding harsh. The RP’s are now in my office with a vintage technics amp and loudness ON
@@bhob666 Yes the Klipsch sound can be somewhat tamed with tubes.
Thought the sound clip was on this video dangit..
Rock on brother good video.
Excited to hear the sound clips! Please, please, PLEASE have the clips synchronized and just transition from one setup to the other so we can more easily hear the differences. Do this and I guarantee people will hear the differences. If you just play one speaker set for a while, then play the other for a while, it won't be as obvious to those of us that don't have as trained ears as you.
You are going to be disappointed because he always find something,is his business to find something wrong otherwise he can't sell the fix
@@glengatt3941 What am I going to be disappointed about? I didn't set any expectations for what or how much or whether anyone would like one speaker or the other. I only suggested the method so we could hear *some kind of difference*. I've found this to be extremely helpful when other reviewers have done this. Is it perfect? No. Does it capture everything? No. Will it show a difference if done how I describe. You bet. It will absolutely show relative differences. *That* is all I expect to hear. Since, as Danny put it, what we are able to experience through the recording is only a small percentage of the other differences that can be heard in-person, I'm definitely going to recommend a method that will show the differences in what *can* be heard through RUclips.
You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to agree with Danny. I'm not taking any sides. One reason I love audio is that there is plenty of subjectivity. There are so many ways to enjoy it and so many "tastes". Yours is probably different than mine and that's cool.
I'm m not an expert but sometimes you say for example that the problem is the cabinet and the fix is a crossover ,can a bad cabinet be fixed like that, and you sell speakers too have you ever reviewed one of your products? True is that the way you talk about other products or the way just throwed that base driver on the table like is garbage not everyone can just go and spend thousands of € on a pair of speakers I think you do better with just some humbleness, just my opinion
sound clips via your pc etc really only show tonal and detail diffs. its ok but nothing like being there. in that sense i dont give them too much weight when the products are closely matched. soundstage, phase issues, placement within soundstage.. none of that comes thru via you tube. just saying.
@@veroman007 We're all in agreement on this.
I got some binding posts for $14 each for my home built speakers. Every part of the binding posts are brass, and plastic for the bases.
I'm really excited to hear the difference between klipsch and the XLR. I just bought a sale set of 600s and probably will purchase the upgrade kit depending on how they sound in my environment lol.
But I'm as picky as you on frequency levels.
You know back in the day most speaker companies focused on exactly what you do and installed them in good solid cabinets.
Today they just fail to build a solid foundation. There units that are built right are just way too expensive to bother with.
Agree !.......when the musical envelope is out of balance , lacks the natural coherence ..and the woofer impedance is only 4 Ohms .... it is a NO NO for me.........
Even the sensitivity is a lie !
I would never buy fully-assembled or kit-build speakers without the opportunity to first hear them on my system. That leaves out companies that do not have a customer-friendly return policy. I trust my ears, not Klipsch marketing or Danny measurements. Both need to pitch their solutions favorably to make a living.
I recently bought the RP-600M ii and it exceeds my expectations in every way. If it hadn't, it would have gone back to Crutchfield. If you don't trust your ears that is a different story.
Would anyone marry someone based on the reviews of people who have dated that person before? Or based on their measurements? :) For anyone interested in a good audio match, think of it that way and let your ears rule your decision.
I changed the signal capacitors in my Prima Luna prologue amp to a supposed expensive upgrade paper and oil caps. Although subtle they took away from separation in the mid frequencies but improved on the bass. I was about to sell the amp a year after that because of lack of interest in listening to music. I changed the capacitors back to the originals before selling and the life came back and two years later I still enjoy the sound and am not selling it. The point is the caps can make a subtle but very important difference to the enjoyment of listening
I would never change out the electrolytics in my main amps, they are in their for a reason. However, in phono stages, and speakers I have changed out all my electrolytic capacitors, with paper in oils, and poly caps, and boy oh boy, that is where great gains can be had.
Out of curiosity were they Jupiter caps?
Swapping out the cheap Chinese caps is a no brainer, coupling especially
Excellent Vid. You are correct Sir, too many customers think they know it all & my 40+ years in the industry mean nothing.
And you're not alone to experience that ..........
Danny you're the guy !!! Excellent video !!!
Awesome technical analysis. Now i just need a recommendation for some budget home theater speakers
Have a look at our X Series kits.
Ever since Audiovox acquired Klipsch, profit over quality reigned supreme!
YES , I had a conversation with the dealer of Klipsch in my country and he agrees.....
But remember the La Scalas are still some of the best sounding speakers out there.
@@scottypalmer2158 whatever
dude, it's a $749 pr of speakers . that's expected from a company that makes speakers for every price point- - a serous listener would pass on these and move on up the speaker chain -
@@5Antvin what speakers would you suggest ?
Great video on time 🙏
Finally some A/B listening tests with upgrades. Seems it’s not only Klipsch that’s been doing some listening. Thanks GR!
I've heard you guys... Honestly though we do tons of listening comparisons here. I spent all morning doing that. I do understand the need to bring you guys along as best I can, and let everyone in on the listening somehow rather than me just telling you the results. So I am going to try and do that this time.
I adore my Klipsch BUT I completely agree with you! The tweeter is 2-3db louder than the woofer and it sucks 😢 I do love the dynamics of my Klipsch R-51m and the off axis performance from the wave guide but Klipsch needs to replace the metal cone woofer with a stiff compliance paper coned woofer and focus more on the presentation of the midrange rather than the higher frequencies.
I enjoy the Klipsch boost on the high end. As someone who suffers from some hearing loss in that upper mid and treble area I find myself always adjusting the tone control or EQ up (if there is one). Flat response speakers are smooth sounding, but they always sound a little dull to me.
Well said, Bloozestringer. I enjoy the Klipsch sound, too. Klipsch has that assertive, energetic sound; that is also dynamic. Furthermore, Klipsch loud speakers are one of the few speakers available that also has the performance of having a mid-level bass to a playback of most recordings!
Klipsch speakers are designed that way so that even bookshelf speakers, small, or very large can reproduce lower bass than other speakers; since they are at an SPL of over 90dB.
I am NOT saying any Klipsch bookshelf speakers have very low bass! Although it appears that there is an illusion of lower bass, it actually is, and cannot be there; a woofer driver has to be a minimum of 6, 8, actually 10 inches in diameter. Most likely a Sub-woofer of 10 inch diameter is the only way to get very deep bass; and if you've got plenty of amplification-power there is are sub-woofers that are 12 in. size.🔉🎵
I used Dans design to do a home built pair of open baffles and I love them. I dont think Id ever buy a pair of commercial speakers again.
Hopefully you guys will use Ron's(New Record day)Binaural dummy head for the comparison.
Interesting. I have an older set of towers and yes the tweeters were always harsh, it's how I came upon them, a friend of mine couldn't deal with it.....
I use them for av. But, I happened upon an AVI amp and it really brought the bottom end in line with the treble. Still not the best I've heard, but it is a factor.
I'm looking forward to this, big-time.
I'm intrigued. We've got the new Ref II speakers in our store now.
Just got my RP 6000 ii. Totally in love. I upgraded some 22 year old Bose speakers. Perfect for my smaller 16x16 room
They're decent in the time ive had them up playing, but they're too bright for me, especially with any sort of tow-in.
I'm quite ensitive to any boosts in the 1-3KHz range, so rebalancing them will make them much more enjoyable over their stock performance, especially at louder levels.
Still not spectacular. There are cheaper speakers that sound better.
@@sptauto I’m sure, but wasn’t price sensitive. Just wanted something nice that didn’t overpower the room.
@@ChowderTIO Makes no sense. Why pay more for less? Those aren't exactly very high demands.
@@sptauto I spent an evening reading reviews, bought an 8 speaker set; it arrived in 2 days, and works great. I don’t watch that much tv anymore, so it wasn’t a major decision. I also love the new Denon receiver as well.
Yeah baby! Bring it... can't wait 😁
Awesome Video man!!! Thank you for sharing!! I was wondering if you could do a Video on the Yamaha NS-10s monitors please! Are they only good for mixing or are they also good for enjoying music??? Thanks a lot!!! Cheers from Denver, CO.
:-) I have designed an upgrade for those.
Great info 👍
I just spent six hours with my son listening to all kinds of music on his Gen 1 RP-600Ms. We had a great time; they sounded great. That’s not to say they sounded accurate, just great - without A/B, it would’ve been hard to tell. All I know is, they were really really fun.
A lot of people love them, they sell very well. Not my type of speaker but all that matters is that you and your son do. Nice bonding moment listening to music with your boy 👍
Old school black and white TV's can be fun to watch. If they are all you've ever seen then you'll never know what you're missing.
@@dannyrichie9743 Hardly all I've ever known..., but thanks for assuming and then implying that.
@@NosEL34 Well said. They're not my cup of tea, either. I'm just saying they're fun.
@@solitarysoul7604 By comparison, we have color TV's in high def and 85" wide.
Also coming late to the party, first of all, thanks a lot for these reviews. Even if I tend to disagree here and there, I still learn a lot, and that's what matters.
Somebody may have asked this before - as it is an obvious question: why do you think Klipsch designed and sold a speaker with such notable dip at 1.5 kHz (first version)? I assume they were well aware of this fact, and I also assume that they have engineers how probably came up with a similar alternative filter design as you presented.
Still, they ended with the "dipped" version.
Do you think they presented different versions to some test-listeners, and maybe some thought that the dip in this frequency range actually sounded softer or more accommodating? I know that lowering the frequency in the 1-2 kHz range is not uncommon for that very reason.
They don't go through anything like that during the design process. No company throws a design out there like the first 600M on purpose. They got killed for it and had to go back to the drawing board and fix the problems. The result is the new version.
With headphone mods I have done I have used modeling clay to add mass to the drivers and cups to help with the response and resonances. For the port resonances you mentioned, do you think adding mass with that method would help? Or would it just shift the resonance frequency?
It would have to be something viscous to effectively damp cabinet walls - it has to change mechanical energy into something else, say heat. Port resonance depends mainly on ports dimensions and a bit on the shape. I guess it's location might have some influence. Of course internal cabinet resonance might leak through the port as well.
This is my first view from you guys. Now subscribed. Do you guys sell a crossover upgrade for the 600M?
Great work as usual ! ;)
But i am thinking why don't you build a diy speaker "à la klispch" with better drivers ?
It would be a big step UP for those who like sensitive Horn speakers...
The Klipsch doesn't use a horn. It uses a waveguide on a normal dome tweeter.
Thanks Danny! Could you do the Polk R200 next?
Only if someone sends one in. :P
Listen to what this man says people , no frills and no B.S! Love it 👏
Since these type of Klipsch speakers are mass-produced and distributed, there may be a lucrative opportunity for someone to offer 3D printed crossover boards to go with these GR-Research upgrade kits. That would save a lot of time in these upgrades. When I upgraded my B&W CDM-1NT speakers, most of my time was spent on layout and and building the boards so that they would fit inside the enclosures.
Kind of like the CSS crossover boards.
@@ChicagoRob2 Exactly!
As a suggestion please also do a test between the upgraded 600m 2 and the gr research speaker.
He said he will do that
I think people want wonky speakers that only work well with certain recording balances. It's not like you didn't know. That said, having issues at @1Khz is not good/inexcusable.
Nice work, maybe the best on RUclips, parts matter %98, I had a high end Denon receiver and I was impressed, now I have a Sony ES receiver and I'm blown away by the sound quality, all because Sony ES uses much better Japanese parts 😮
Very good lecture, demonstration, and a thorough explanation of the new version of the Klipsch 600M; the 600M Version 2 loudspeakers. I'm glad I watched this video presentation about the new Klipsch 600M II Speakers. Thumbs up. I subscribed to your channel a month ago.
I'm glad I did not buy that original version of the Klipsch 600M. Certainly most parts, and an alteration for another version can make a difference; and maybe make a vast improvement to the sound! Not much of an argument on what you have expressed, Randy.
However, Steve Guttenberg communicated, and explained that this Klipsch - the original 600M was very good; maybe not excellent, but these large bookshelf speakers by Klipsch performed well, and were efficient! Here is an audiophile, and music fan who does not have anything to do with Snake Oil!
Therefore, I do not completely understand, and coherently appreciate this discrepancy concerning the performance of these Klipsch speakers. Furthermore, maybe that Klipsch pair of speakers is a defective copy. Have you tried testing, and analyzing another pair of Klipsch 600Ms? As you know it's a process of the Scientific Method; anyhow, more analysis for absolute certainty.
As you are well aware, and as almost everybody in this forum knows, Klipsch speakers have that reputation, and tonality of an assertive, energetic sound! That's the way these speaker manufacturers, designers, engineering department, management make these speakers. Correct me if I'm wrong, and very misguided! Then why aren't there plenty of music fans complaining, or remarking about the sound of music from Klipsch speakers that does not sound good, or have above than average performance? Isn't it a bit peculiar.
Anyhow, maybe it was better that I did not buy the Klipsch 600M. Instead, over a year ago I purchased a pair of Klipsch 51Ms, and those book shelf speakers sound pretty good connected my second audio system; a harman kardon 490i Receiver 30W, high current.
I also connected an Odd, used Rega Planar 3 Turntable whereby I installed a Linn Basik Plus tonearm with phono RCA cable, three longer hexagon machine screws, drive belt, motor suspension belt, and dust cover. Phono cartridge that I mounted is a new Audio Technica AT95E MM. Recently I've got to solder in a new capacitor. Sounds pretty good, and correct to me. Glad, and fortunate I'm a music fan, and audiophile second. 🔉🎵🎶
Our measurements on the original 600M are very similar to testing done by others reviewers, (Audio Science Review and Erin's Audio Corner) that are worth looking into, and have very similar, and often more detailed than our own measurements.
I don't know if there is really anything to complain about. For long listening sessions you either love it or hate the Klipsch sound. When I was younger it didn't bother me as much, I just wanted loud. I definitely prefer a much more neutral frequency response from my speakers these days. Majority of mass market speakers in this price range, and higher $ range, have cheap internal parts. The sound is only "wrong" If you don't like it. People that don't like this sound don't buy them, so nothing to complain about. Many people don't like speakers with a flat frequency response, even if it's made with all the best parts. Shouldn't take it personal if an engineer or reviewer craps all over a pair of speakers you like. With amplifiers/electronics I think parts and build are much more important than your speaker sound preference. GR Research just points out certain flaws with speakers and if you think yours need an improvement or you want a change in sound they offer a remedy...for a price. Usually that price is cheaper than buying a new set of speakers. Plus some people enjoy the thought of building something to make it sound different. If it sounds better is your opinion
Audiophiles seem to like a upwards shift in the upper medium/high frequency range ( also with some cartridges like many AT's ) ................used to be fooled ..........natural sounds aren't anything like these .......one must unlearn before learning ....
As soon as you experience listening fatigue you should know that a lot of things go wrong even with VERY expensive high end material...
@@hoth2112 Okay, then it seems logical, and is confirmed enough. Thank you for the response, and further explanation.🔉🎼🎵
@@NosEL34 Yes, I understand further now, thank you for responding, and your explanation, M W. I also forgot to include the word Loud; another word to describe the characteristic of the Klipsch sound. Could be that there are audiophiles who are mostly rock & roll fans, as it goes with Cerwin Vega speakers, too. If that is the case, anyhow.🔉🎵
Hi, after seeing a lot of you're video, I would like to see one with an old vintage speaker like the Celestion Ditton 44 or Celestion Ditton 44 series 2. I've got a pair of Ditton series 2 and I've alredy upgrade the crossover with good parts and I'm curious about how would you handle these ones .
Oddly enough, that system could do well with a second woofer wired in series. Add roughly 3db to the woofer output while evening out the impedance with the tweeter. And they could possibly back off the woofer's crossover point to eliminate some stored energy.
I like your thinking, but adding a woofer in series doesn't gain any output. It would also push the acoustic centers too far apart.
@@dannyrichie9743 Yep, no free lunch.
A pair of 500C II would be a more interesting alternative, keeping the acoustic centers closer together, making them MTM bookshelves without having to worry about their off-axis response. Not sure how much it would improve their effeciency though.
i hould love for you to do a pair of jamo s803. just because i have a pair and would to see where they stack up and what you would do to them. thanks for all the work you guys do have a great day.
Send them in
@@BatMan-to8im if i did would you do a video of them? that would be awesome.
It would be great to see GR-Research designing improvement kits for the Klipsch Heritage line; I just got a pair of Forte IVs and, to my ears,they sound great but I really cannot say anything about how they measure…
Crites Speaker has their own tweeter, and Xover replacement
We'll work on most anything if someone sends them in. So far noone has sent any of the newer models in. Most of it comes down to shipping costs for large/heavy speakers. The only heritage speakers we've had in were the Forte III and the LaScala. The later we didn't design an upgrade for.
I think the heritage line are designed to be specially euphonic and are as they are. I personally would not mess with those. But still?? It would be interesting
@@BatMan-to8im Those that have done the upgrade for the Forte III were really happy with the results after the. But those big cabinets really need some bracing to clean up the boxy sound especially in the bass and vocal range. Some really like the boxy sound but for us, it's pretty tough to look past.
I believe if you email him, he makes exactly what you're looking for. His website is crap for upgrades lists as he said he doesn't have the time to keep it updated so you have to call or email
i.knew when Danny mentioned about opening the back of Sandy's golden ear amt tweeters he knew his shit.. I have audiovector s and the highs are awesome.. I trust his take much more the the people who review speakers who have been working at retail.stores or have no background in any engineering of any sort they are all late to the movie ...Erin is another good one for sure! not that there isn't good enough sound on the cheap today but I would not put my money on most of these men for the best sound for dollars...
Lol
My Elac UB5 always registers as out of phase by my Denon receiver but they still sound good.
That is because they use a polarity flip to make them acoustically in phase and sum properly. Previous Klipsch models had drivers that acoustically were not in phase and had a hole in the response.
Nice T-shirt. Kramarić :)
I understand better designed electronics may make graph more leanier (and sound charactersictics better depending on each one taste). But not clear how without changing the cabinet and especially the drivers, one can remove all its shortcomings. I find mostly it boils to one's taste... and each design has its strengths and weaknesses. But, inspite of so many requests, why don't you show the differences. In several channels, with proper headset we can surely hear the differences...
But many thanks to your feedbacks which help manufacturers to improve their design/quality and stay competitive.
Parts quality used will have a huge impact on clarity, detail, resolution, etc. So it is much more then just correcting amplitude problems.
Recording those before and after in a way that you can hear them over a RUclips video is pretty challenging, but we are working on it.
@@dannyrichie9743 thank you so much. Looking forward for comparison which helps to get feel on the major differences like details, tonality etc. (understand may not show in full the improvements on sound stage etc).
The horn in the version 2 is a full inch larger, don't know if you said that or not I didn't catch it, just information
Strange that the rp-600m speakers were so well received by reviewers when they came out, I have a pair of rp-160m that I rather like :) nice video as always
Agreed. But those measurements show obvious design flaws. I guess that is the Klipsch "house sound"...?
A dip in that area can sometimes sound nice.
Would you recomend the RP-500M II or the RP-600M II as SL/R in a 7.2.4 setup? I already have the florrstanding Klipsch RP-6000F II and the Klipsch RP-404C II in the center.
So far I haven't fond one of them that I would recommend with upgrading them.
I think I'll find a vintage good-looking console stereo, say an old Curtis Mathes system. Looks great in the family room and fun to listen to music again. Instead of listening to where the sound is, I'll just enjoy music and skip the measurements. Thanks
Yeah, takes me back to when I was a kid, lying on the living room floor with my head centered between the speakers of our 1970 Magnavox console, spinning my Allman Bros. albums. Right there on the floor with my head buried in the mud...the muddy sound. "Live at Fillmore East" sounded more like "Stuck Outside The Fillmore Without a Ticket", but I didn't know any better till I could afford my own Radio Shack "Realistic" hifi system for my room. Then I smiled, and bought more records.
Hi from Germany, YT Snake Oil Audio mentioned your channel and he's completly right: You are making a real good job! Coming from PA I just start into the HiFi section as a hobby developer for speakers. My idea is to use an active crossover to develope the speaker. Do you have experiences with the difference in sound between active and passive crossovers doing the same job with the same speaker? Since I don't have any more records, the AD converter shouldn't be a problem.
Commercially available active crossovers use textbook slopes. So they don't take into account the acoustic output of the speaker. So in general they are pretty hit and miss and mostly miss. You also have to deal with coloration from Op-amps and A/C power supplies. Unless the active crossover is a top level design built specifically for a speaker then I'd stay away from them.
@@dannyrichie9743 thx, although that wasn't what I wanted to hear ;-))
If the units and the box are almost the same, you could just use the same filter that you did for the mk1?
There are some differences to the drivers, cabinet and the waveguide that may need to be account for, but that will probably be a starting point to see how different the changes are from the original.
Hi, do you advice to buy this speaker for hifi listening?
Thank you. The truth will set us free.
I had the RP600M. BEFORE I saw your upgrade video. I found that they were too harsh for nearfield, and did in fact lose midrange/tweeter resolve due to that massive dip in the crossover point.
Second: I have upgraded many speakers. Electrolytics in the signal path guarantee nothing more than mediocre sound and degradation in as little as 3 years. I use only metallized poly 1 or 5%. Just that change alone is very prominent in clarity. People don't realize how easy cheap electrolytic caps saturate- especially the tweeter.
The 600MII has been hyped as the perfection of the sound, and the reviews strike me as exaggeration.
Danny, please consider hiring a recording engineer with a binaural Neumann KU 100 dummy head, GML preamps, and high end Lynx/Crane Song/RME/Prism converters to get a true binaural sound from the sweet spot in your listening room. With this, you’d greatly increase that 20% of differences to be heard on headphones. A listener on a nice but even low priced pair like the Status CB-1 would be able to get a much better feel for the differences than other speaker demo recording methods, which are often haphazard at best.
Measurement mics in ORTF at the sweet spot can do a decent job, but for a serious listening endeavor, I’d recommend the above. Just this experienced audiophile recordist/mastering engineer’s 10 cents.
What's the point of listening to differences in speakers over headphones? That's just crazy logic.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Nothing illogical about it. Purely the science of acoustics. No recording of a speaker is going to represent the original space, transient response, etc., and bringing stereo fields into this convolutes the issue. Binaural is not stereo. It is the absence of spatial interaction and cancellation that can only be experienced in headphones. This is why and how headphone studio mixing room simulations exist with some level of success. Is it a perfect 1:1? Not by any stretch. But it can give you far more spatial realism and depth, tonal responsiveness, representing the original system and space, magnified by the quality of the headphones and preampfification.
Say you mic two speakers directly, right and left, with measurement mics. Playing this back on any type of system will completely destroy any imaging and staging in the recorded system. Now, say you take my suggestion for a quality binaural recording, but you instead play it back over a speaker system rather than decent to great headphones - the imaging will completely fall apart on speakers, due to cancellations and interactions in the stereo field, in contrast to being fairly accurately reproduced spatially within a binaural (headset) system, where there is no crosstalk between drivers, placed directly over/by your ears.
There’s a reason high end binaural microphones like the Neumann KU 100 and others exist. The 1:1 reproduction would be the most transparent headset and signal chain possible. Recording with this and playing back on speakers, like you’ll hear from many “player position” virtual instruments recorded using this mic, will sound interesting perhaps, depending on the placement in a mix, but not at all representing the actual position and staging like headphones produce. And to clarify, I’m not making an argument for headphones over speakers at all - this is simply to say that headphones are binaural in their spatial representation, whereas speakers are stereo. Trying to “put you in the room” with a speaker demo? Binaural in and out is the best way to perform this cloudy and dismal endeavor 🙂
Dont worry, we know a guy with one. 😉
Seems like overkill for a budget speaker...
DMark2 The budget speaker is just the vehicle used to deliver a message about how cheap parts hold back speakers. He’s cracked open plenty of +2K models that have the same cheesy parts in them. As consumers we should be more concerned about pretty boxes filled with crap than Danny’s videos.
Have a question - You speak of theses Klipsch speakers as being "out of phase", how does that problem show up in the hearing of the speaker? What do I hear when speakers are out of phase? Can you clearify so I know what I'm listening for when it comes to speaker phase? Thanks.
It creates a hole in the response and makes the music sound disjointed and flat.
Waiting for the day when there is no more ferromagnetic material in components that are part of the amplified signal chain.
I hear ya, and nonferrous nuts and washers the delta is just a matter of cents.
@@ericharrelson2045 and also sense! Common sense! Lol
A ferro nut could be considered a choke making a nice high frequency filter
Do you have any like objective testing or measurements that show the specific effects different parts, whether "higher or lower" quality parts do to the sound of the speaker. maybe you can quiet people saying that there is no effect by proving there is one
A simple listening comparison confirms everything within a few seconds.
Hi, what do you think of the old Klipsch RP-160M? Given my budget I would like to buy them. Or, in the same price range, the Kef Q150, or other brands. You can give me an advice? I trust your judgement, you are very prepared. Thank you.
Bought a pair. Had them for a week and returned them. I kept staring at the tweeter while I was listening. In the box they went. Wanted to like them but oh well. I did hear what you did with Ron's pair and I could hear the difference. They were much cleaner 👍
That's been my same thought, even towed out, they still draw too much attention to themselves, but I'm still gunna enjoy them until it's time for us to upgrade them. Then I'll enjoy them even more. :P
Love my Encores! Best thing i did! I Should re build the crossover now im better and the better parts.
Danny I hope you give these new speakers a decent breaking in so it is a like for like comparison.
We will.
@@dannyrichie9743 very glad to hear.
Hey Danny, just letting you know there is something up with your website if you weren't already aware. Links are not working, domain seems to be highjacked??
I was just looking if anyone posted about the website being redirected
The box as you handle it seems so light ! It should have some WEIGHT...Where is the 1 inch MDF.
Parts quality always matters. In everything.
The video sounds better, did you change mics?
I may have gotten a little closer to it, but it is the same.
I have a pair of Klipsch rf25 floor speakers have you had those before?
Why is the gr research website offline? I decided today was the day to buy the rp600 upgrade kits and suddenly I can’t find gr research on the web at all.
Explanation: www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182102.msg1912962#msg1912962
Did I miss part 2 of this ? Can’t find it
What is another option with out a upgrade , a speaker already there for about the same price . To buy.
At those price points just about everything out there is loaded with the cheapest parts possible. If you want quality for the same price points you can have it, but only building it from one of our DIY kits.
hey, was trying to do some shopping the the GR websiet, but it says expired. whats up??
Explanation: www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182102.msg1912962#msg1912962
I just got my RP8000F II’s, I still don’t know what to make out of them. I got my Maggies LRS with GR-R xover as a backup just in case.
Those were definitely the worst measuring speakers out of the original RP line, so I'm curious how the 8000F IIs compare to the originals as well.
I had them for week and gave them AWAY 🤣.... for free no joke
Those two speakers are really different. Almost apples and oranges, I love things like that, used to work in a stereo store and we would experiment with often wildly different equipment and find what we liked for different types of music and budgets.
Would be interesting to compare with Polk reserve R200.
If someone sends them in we'd be happy to look at it.
"Parts quality" definitely matters. I design and build guitar amps (tube and solid state) and also dabble in hifi speaker enclosures. Like most people, I started out using cheap components. And like most things in life, it's a compromise... price vs quality. I have made an A/B comparison with an amplifier where the only difference was the brand of the capacitors in the signal path. The difference was amazing.... I will say that higher price does not always mean better. There are plenty of diamonds in the rough out there. Also, there is a time and place for cheap parts. But in the end you have to decide what you will be the most happy with... With your ears and your wallet! Looking forward to watching some more videos. I just discovered this channel today!!
With the old and new 600m both upgraded, are they close?
Yes.
I would love an a/b test of the same crossover but with”quality” parts. If they have the same values they should sound the same, basic physics. Prove it makes a difference.
It would seem different materials, approaches, and orientations, affect speed and stored energy in components.
@@FOH3663 no
Absolutely he should so this. However, if he is actually reworking the crossover frequencies and reversing the phase on the tweeters, then that should be easily audible. People do buy these for the V-shaped sound signature though, so "correcting" it with 300-400$ worth of parts makes no sense, as you should have just bought Polk Reserves or something else nuetral with that 1200$ you've now invested. I have a set of RP160ms that run in the B channel on my system, an AXR100 driving some vintage Jamo Concert 11 towers, and I like to switch over and listen to them when I am streaming lofi on youtube or some other lossy-format poorly mixed music(2000s Rock comes to mind). They don't reveal the suck inherent in bad recordings, and make some of my favorite songs sound like nails on a chalkboard.
Exactly, it really makes me shake my head when these people put sound tracks of two different speakers in the same system cause you can't actually hear the full difference without being in the actual room! And on top of that there is nothing else on the video except the music sound tracks!
And you're listening to them on X playback device which is potentially coloring and most certainly altering the sound as well.
I don't think the demos are completely useless however you're not hearing the gear as you would in person so it does beg the "what's the point" question to some extent.
I've also watched a number of them where comments gravitate to the brighter tipped up speaker and they declare the apparent clarity as the higher quality. Yet I know in room that some of those speakers are going to be far less enjoyable over hours of high volume listening compared to something that may sound veiled or rolled off in comparison during the sound clip.
If you're inexperienced, those clips will probably just lead you more astray. Nothing can replace living with and experiencing gear first hand.
Who is the Soccer Team on your T-Shirt Danny? Im a huge Glasgow Rangers fan myself : )
2:36 It won't affect the sound enough to be audible under any conditions.
I more or less agree with this, except klipsch is supposed to be a high end brand how much price difference is a brass nut going to be that they can’t use them instead of steel maybe a few cents per hundred. I own 6 rp 280’s as my surround and a 64III center channel that’s not a cheap setup they can afford some better quality parts in their stuff at the prices they charge.
It is audible.
@@dannyrichie9743 To an untrained listener ?
@@great100m Using a good system like ours, yes.
@@a1racer441 the RP600Ms aren't supposed to be a top of the line 2 way bookshelf speaker, so it's ok
GR Research just sold 10,000 units of their average speakers on the US retail market....bravo
Regarding the woofer, you said it’s identical all marketing, but they supposedly added aluminum shorting rings and a voice coil that’s 70% larger. You say parts matter, but different parts matter more than others, how important is a bigger voice coil? and what is even a shorting ring?
I can't confirm if they changed anything internally on the woofer or not. Shorting rings lower the inductance of the woofer coil and can lower distortion.
I don't believe that I would be able tell the difference in sound with a steel nut versus something else.
Actually this woofer is very different. The new woofer has much lower distortion. On some frequencies it's about 10dB lower than with the old woofer.
According to Steve Guttenburg's review, IIRC, the only difference is the addition of a Faraday Shorting Ring, also called Flux Modulation Rings, which in my understanding serve to reduce inductance, reduce distortion and make a driver more linear when more power is used.
@@mpix8302 I also heard that it has larger voice coil diameter. But I am not sure.
How much does "room correction" help or not with this? My Onkyo has a room correction program built in.
These speakers need a lot more than room correction.
@@dannyrichie9743 I just wondered if it made ANY difference.
Room correction software can only help so much. Really you want to get your room to a good state, using treatments. Than use room correction software. Room corrections software when it has to correct too much does not sound great in my opinion
"Room correction" is not "speaker correction". 🤷♂️
ZERO. Can't fix time/phase errors with room correction. That is a fallacy.
Will you review the 8000F Mark II model ?
Sorry, but I am not a reviewer. We just work on whatever our customers send us.