Yay! So glad to see another vid. I’m also happy you’re going to continue on RUclips. I do not do social media. No FB or IG or TikTok or anything. I’m a member of Model Horse Blab & sell on Model Horse Connection (formerly MH$P) but that’s it. And congrats on 200+ subscribers. I’m proud to be one of them. The exculating prices started with the clubs. Before the clubs most models released each year were regular runs & easily obtainable since there were plenty of dealers. There were some store exclusives (Sears, JCP, TRU) & Breyer did have a line of LE’s & Commemorative Edition but the only models that were truly HTF were JAH models & BF models. Once the club’s really got going with their limited models that attracted the attention of non hobby flippers looking to make a quick buck by selling on eBay. Then hobbyists saw what the flippers were getting so they asked the same prices or a bit more for their models. Hobbyists that missed out on the club models were willing to pay those prices so a vicious circle was created. Patience is key when buying in the secondary. I’ve waited 10 years to get a model I want for a price I can pay. So don’t give up on getting those grails. Now most of the models Breyer releases each year are limited or exclusive in some way, which just feeds the cycle of higher secondary market prices. Regular runs & dealers are getting fewer & farther between as Reeves focuses more & more on the clubs & events. When most of your products are limited in some way & only available first hand on your website or at an event that just feeds the flippers & high secondary prices. It’s a big change from when I started collecting in the 1970’s & there were 2 stores in my small town of 3,000 that sold Breyers & runs were open ended & lasted for years. There was no secondary market because no one had trouble getting the models they wanted so there was no shortage. Times really have change & not always for the better. I joined the CC one year (2018) & split a membership with a friend. It was a total bust. By the end of the year I was out over $40 & all I had to show for it was the issue of JAH. I’ll not join any of the clubs again. I don’t even buy BF tickets since I can get the models I want at the hotel & the money I save not buying tickets covers the mark up. I haven’t purchased anything directly from Breyer in a long time. I even had them delete my account. I’m still in the hobby I’ve just radically slowed down my buying since I don’t have the money or the space. I’m concentrating more on creating customs & I really enjoy it. There’s something in this hobby for everyone & I’m looking forward to learning more about your plans for the future & hearing more about your journey in the hobby.
Hi Lea, thanks for the interesting information as usual! I remember the regular run LE's and Commemorative models from when I collected in the early-mid 90s, so it is interesting to trace the changing nature of HTF models since those halcyon days, lol. And that really is a good point about Breyer emphasizing the club models and other somehow limited models over the regular runs. I've been steadily collecting all of the mini catalogs that used to be included in each model's box, and the number of regular run models, even into the early 2000s is a stark contrast to now. Alas...progress? (as mentioned!)
I agree with the Peter Stones and Breyers being mixed thing. It happens in photo shows as well, although it is SUCH an awesome feeling if your Breyer beats them.
Great thoughts all around! :) As far as shows go, there has definitely been several sticking points for a number of years now as the pool of available models keeps growing, including: - How do we organize class lists in ways that are fair enough, offer a good variety of classes, and can easily fit in a 1 or 2 day format? - What should our biggest priorities be with serving entrants and fostering in judging? (for example, breed can be frustrating as you said with some molds being very dominant) Unfortunately the idea of a "kitchen sink" type show, offering as many divisions as possible over the course of a weekend inclusive of halter & performance, plastic, clinky, and artisan is very impractical for most hosts & venues now. However, from the perspective of an entrant, some folks would still prefer to attend an event where they can bring as much as possible for their entry fee. So we end up in a position where it makes more sense to host one or two more specialized shows during a weekend, but risk losing interest from anyone who does not specialize in our chosen niche if it is too granular. The best solution really would be just to have these smaller more specialized shows more frequently, to offer more opportunities for participation, but venues and hosting in general can be tough for anyone who doesn't have the time or budget to invest. The Auburn MA hall that I and a few others have been using since 2021 is very reasonable compared to other options, but we got very lucky that someone in our community was familiar with the space and thought to give it a try. There are some areas even within our region and nearby that would have no trouble gathering entrants population wise, but the costs seem to be the limiting factor (such as Hudson valley NY or north/northeast NJ). The other major issue IMO is that there are two main camps for one's reasons behind entering shows: - Competition (either beating your own personal best, that especially applies to performance, or just generally the pride and joy one may gain from winning) - Fun/Socialization/Enjoyment of seeing lots of models in a single place Now, I believe that the majority of people are not solely in it for one or the other, and fall into a gray area in between. But this dichotomy's existence HAS absolutely led to many disagreements over what judges should be prioritizing to judge. IMO it's the biggest reason there haven't been further judging standards or official training programs as some folks have suggested over the years. And it's the reason why a lot of people are not super invested in the success of NAMHSA, because they see its main focus on top level competition and tune out because that's just not important to them. Some people are very insistent that only the best of the best should ever win (this is also the root cause of the "nitpicking flaws" issues that keep coming up over and over again), while others just want to see friends and pretty horses, to show off what they love and the placings are a nice bonus. From there, you get the spiraling issues of folks getting burned out emotionally or financially trying to keep up with the latest and greatest. I believe a lot of people end up just quietly leaving because they are uncomfortable complaining about feeling like they can't afford to compete or what is popular no longer matches what they love, and they don't want to cause drama. Which is understandable. Unfortunately, what used to be more of a collectibility issue (since many shows were either double judged or catered mainly to rare collectibility) is increasingly a problem for breed as well. Breyer and Stone especially continually upping the bar on realism has led to large shakeups in some breed sections or a sudden abundance of good options in others. In both cases, older molds that used to be relatively good or great for their classes have ended up sinking rather quickly sometimes. Honestly, these days I am gravitating more towards entering shows with class lists that offer something new and exciting, that allow folks to bring out different models than just shows which have everything in together (though for standard shows I will still go and support my friends hosting if my schedule allows and it's reasonably close by). So, I would travel further for shows that have specialized mini, single judged collectibility, or other unique class lists personally. I also do think there should be more options for folks who feel like they've otherwise "graduated" from intermediate/novice but because the gap in pace of shows, depth of classlists & competition, and knowledge required with little time for feedback they may feel uncertain about Open level. I never push people faster than they are ready and in 10 years, I've never encountered anyone whom I truly felt was "taking a victory lap" in the learning divisions while obviously more than ready to move on. I truly want to see more casual/fun shows aimed at folks who are less or not at all in it for the competitive aspect and just want to have a good time. That's kind of what I was aiming for with Scratch & Dent, but with so little prep time and it being a brand new show I wasn't sure how everything would shake out. I hope that if I can bring it back, I'll be putting more thought into it all and making some adjustments (particularly to the guardrails of what I consider eligible). For NENE, I am definitely considering doing more to split out non-Breyer in intermediate breed, since more folks have been bringing Stones in particular. If at least some separate classes and not another division. Every year I try to make adjustments based on the trends of the past few years, so I can keep serving folks as best as I can. :) You are welcome to shadow me any time I am judging collectibility, as long as the host is ok with it! I do judge breed sometimes, but I feel like I am far better at explaining my thoughts and process for collectibility :D And I am also happy to mentor for hosting. Reach out any time!
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments from the prospective of a show host, judge, and competitor! You've raised many excellent points and explanations, such as the particular challenges of judging and why I've seen recent negative-ish comments regarding NAMHSA that I didn't know the reasoning behind (and I'm sure there is plenty more than what you've mentioned here). I think because I'm still new and still have a somewhat limited show string, shows that include a bit of everything do appeal to me, but I can fully understand wanting to concentrate on shows that bring something different or more concentrated to the table. I also personally feel in a strange spot between Novice and Open. When I accidentally entered the mini show earlier this year, not even thinking about it being an Open level show, I definitely felt less pressure (put on myself by myself) than I do when showing Novice/Intermediate. I was truly just happy to get any ribbon! If I do end up going to Are You Kitten Me Live next year, I know it will be with the same attitude. Maybe that's a sign I should stick to Open? lol All I know is, my initial thought that I'd spend one year showing in Novice/Intermediate and then move on is not necessarily that straight-forward of a decision. I really hope that Scratch and Dent returns someday, cuz I know I'll be back with my carpet herd and many new antiques store acquisitions. :) I will keep you in mind the next time an opportunity to shadow comes up, or once I get a break from work and can organize my thoughts/hopes regarding hosting a show. I appreciate your willingness to help!
Ah, showing. Judges are influenced by personal preferences & what’s popular. I used to etch & my etchies NAN qualified numerous times in different shows in different regions. One year at BF live my etchies finished 1-2-3 in the custom deco class. My etchies topped 10 at NAN. They did really well, yet there was one judge in my region who didn’t like etchies. She would not place them no matter what. I just learned not to show them when she judged the custom division. Believe it or not judging model horse shows has had a couple of scandals. The most well known was a group of judges who were friends & knew each others models as well as their own would ALWAYS give first place to their friends models at shows with the understanding their friends would do the same. They could show a the Bell Bottom Shire as a Shetland & still get 1st. Luckily after much complaining NAMSHA quit letting them judge. As for the newest molds being deemed the best & nearly always winning the first 3-5 years after being released - it’s nothing new. It’s always been that way. It’s the “Latest & Greatest Syndrome”. Every dog has its day & eventually even Hamilton will fall out of favor. I also don’t like it when Stones show with Breyers. I will never own a Stone because I personally heard Peter Stone make an insulting & derogatory comment about hobbyists. It was years ago in the Clarion during room sales back when the hotel was the Holiday Inn North. My friend & I were room shopping but got stuck in the hallway outside his room (it was in the 500 block just down from the doors that led out to the ballrooms) because of the crowd waiting to get in. He had just released the models that were painted to looked like polished rocks & everyone was excited to see & but them. While my friend & I were wondering if we should turn around & go back Peter Stone & another man pushed their way into the hall. Peter Stone stopped in the middle of the crowd, looked around & said “These stew-ped b*tch*$ will buy anything.” All conversation stopped because almost everyone heard him since he spoke in a normal voice & we were all shocked. He smirked then pushed on through & went out the doors towards the ballrooms. Lots of the women walked away & the crowd thinned so my friend & I were able to continue on our way. After hearing that we both vowed never to buy a single Peter Stone. It’s a vow I’ve kept. It’s not that hard to keep it since I personally prefer Breyers. There’s some nice Stones but most of them just don’t appeal to me. They’re too cartoonish & more angular than Breyers. Add in the cost & having to order off the website during their sales & waiting months for the DYO. No thanks. I’ll stick with Breyers.
Your experience showing the etchies and learning to avoid a certain judge reminds me of going to shows with my Appaloosa as a teen. We primarily went to fun shows held at a local park, and it became super obvious that one judge in particular would straight up not even look at me on my loud leopard Appy in the Jr. English division - my parents confirmed it! Every other judge regarded us fairly, so most of the time it was not an issue. That judging scandal is outrageous! I would have had a real difficult time holding my tongue, though it sounds like NAMHSA took their sweet time doing anything about it. The Peter Stone story is also something, and aligns with a different comment I've heard from him. There's a model horse video from the 90s elsewhere on RUclips, and Peter Stone speaks several times. During one of those times he muses over why he thinks women like horses so much and his response was...creepy, to put it mildly. At least he's not involved with the current iteration of the company, but I can understand the experience you had putting one off of his horses forever. And as much as I've been reading lately about production issues, raising prices, etc. even *with* the new owners, I don't think PS models will ever be a huge part of my collection.
Yeah, judges are not supposed to let their own personal likes & dislikes sway their placings but so many do. That’s why I make notes on what wins under which judge so if they do have favorites or strong dislikes I can adjust my show string. I’m hoping that the new owners of Stone can turn things around & make the models more easily accessible to all hobbyists but I’m not going to hold my breath. Peter Stones most well known comment about his customers is referring to them as “Cash Cows”. So between his comments, high prices & the models not being readily available it’s not surprising his customer base is limited. I sent you an email with some photos I hope you enjoy.
@@learobinson4450 Oh, fantastic! Alas, I am in the middle of another ridiculously busy day at work, but I'll have a proper moment to take a look this evening. :)
Yay! So glad to see another vid. I’m also happy you’re going to continue on RUclips. I do not do social media. No FB or IG or TikTok or anything. I’m a member of Model Horse Blab & sell on Model Horse Connection (formerly MH$P) but that’s it. And congrats on 200+ subscribers. I’m proud to be one of them.
The exculating prices started with the clubs. Before the clubs most models released each year were regular runs & easily obtainable since there were plenty of dealers. There were some store exclusives (Sears, JCP, TRU) & Breyer did have a line of LE’s & Commemorative Edition but the only models that were truly HTF were JAH models & BF models. Once the club’s really got going with their limited models that attracted the attention of non hobby flippers looking to make a quick buck by selling on eBay. Then hobbyists saw what the flippers were getting so they asked the same prices or a bit more for their models. Hobbyists that missed out on the club models were willing to pay those prices so a vicious circle was created.
Patience is key when buying in the secondary. I’ve waited 10 years to get a model I want for a price I can pay. So don’t give up on getting those grails.
Now most of the models Breyer releases each year are limited or exclusive in some way, which just feeds the cycle of higher secondary market prices. Regular runs & dealers are getting fewer & farther between as Reeves focuses more & more on the clubs & events. When most of your products are limited in some way & only available first hand on your website or at an event that just feeds the flippers & high secondary prices.
It’s a big change from when I started collecting in the 1970’s & there were 2 stores in my small town of 3,000 that sold Breyers & runs were open ended & lasted for years. There was no secondary market because no one had trouble getting the models they wanted so there was no shortage. Times really have change & not always for the better.
I joined the CC one year (2018) & split a membership with a friend. It was a total bust. By the end of the year I was out over $40 & all I had to show for it was the issue of JAH. I’ll not join any of the clubs again. I don’t even buy BF tickets since I can get the models I want at the hotel & the money I save not buying tickets covers the mark up. I haven’t purchased anything directly from Breyer in a long time. I even had them delete my account.
I’m still in the hobby I’ve just radically slowed down my buying since I don’t have the money or the space. I’m concentrating more on creating customs & I really enjoy it.
There’s something in this hobby for everyone & I’m
looking forward to learning more about your plans for the future & hearing more about your journey in the hobby.
Hi Lea, thanks for the interesting information as usual! I remember the regular run LE's and Commemorative models from when I collected in the early-mid 90s, so it is interesting to trace the changing nature of HTF models since those halcyon days, lol. And that really is a good point about Breyer emphasizing the club models and other somehow limited models over the regular runs. I've been steadily collecting all of the mini catalogs that used to be included in each model's box, and the number of regular run models, even into the early 2000s is a stark contrast to now. Alas...progress? (as mentioned!)
I agree with the Peter Stones and Breyers being mixed thing. It happens in photo shows as well, although it is SUCH an awesome feeling if your Breyer beats them.
That's a good point, though having only been to a handful of shows, I'm not sure that's happened for me yet! lol
Great thoughts all around! :)
As far as shows go, there has definitely been several sticking points for a number of years now as the pool of available models keeps growing, including:
- How do we organize class lists in ways that are fair enough, offer a good variety of classes, and can easily fit in a 1 or 2 day format?
- What should our biggest priorities be with serving entrants and fostering in judging? (for example, breed can be frustrating as you said with some molds being very dominant)
Unfortunately the idea of a "kitchen sink" type show, offering as many divisions as possible over the course of a weekend inclusive of halter & performance, plastic, clinky, and artisan is very impractical for most hosts & venues now. However, from the perspective of an entrant, some folks would still prefer to attend an event where they can bring as much as possible for their entry fee. So we end up in a position where it makes more sense to host one or two more specialized shows during a weekend, but risk losing interest from anyone who does not specialize in our chosen niche if it is too granular. The best solution really would be just to have these smaller more specialized shows more frequently, to offer more opportunities for participation, but venues and hosting in general can be tough for anyone who doesn't have the time or budget to invest. The Auburn MA hall that I and a few others have been using since 2021 is very reasonable compared to other options, but we got very lucky that someone in our community was familiar with the space and thought to give it a try. There are some areas even within our region and nearby that would have no trouble gathering entrants population wise, but the costs seem to be the limiting factor (such as Hudson valley NY or north/northeast NJ).
The other major issue IMO is that there are two main camps for one's reasons behind entering shows:
- Competition (either beating your own personal best, that especially applies to performance, or just generally the pride and joy one may gain from winning)
- Fun/Socialization/Enjoyment of seeing lots of models in a single place
Now, I believe that the majority of people are not solely in it for one or the other, and fall into a gray area in between. But this dichotomy's existence HAS absolutely led to many disagreements over what judges should be prioritizing to judge. IMO it's the biggest reason there haven't been further judging standards or official training programs as some folks have suggested over the years. And it's the reason why a lot of people are not super invested in the success of NAMHSA, because they see its main focus on top level competition and tune out because that's just not important to them. Some people are very insistent that only the best of the best should ever win (this is also the root cause of the "nitpicking flaws" issues that keep coming up over and over again), while others just want to see friends and pretty horses, to show off what they love and the placings are a nice bonus.
From there, you get the spiraling issues of folks getting burned out emotionally or financially trying to keep up with the latest and greatest. I believe a lot of people end up just quietly leaving because they are uncomfortable complaining about feeling like they can't afford to compete or what is popular no longer matches what they love, and they don't want to cause drama. Which is understandable. Unfortunately, what used to be more of a collectibility issue (since many shows were either double judged or catered mainly to rare collectibility) is increasingly a problem for breed as well. Breyer and Stone especially continually upping the bar on realism has led to large shakeups in some breed sections or a sudden abundance of good options in others. In both cases, older molds that used to be relatively good or great for their classes have ended up sinking rather quickly sometimes.
Honestly, these days I am gravitating more towards entering shows with class lists that offer something new and exciting, that allow folks to bring out different models than just shows which have everything in together (though for standard shows I will still go and support my friends hosting if my schedule allows and it's reasonably close by). So, I would travel further for shows that have specialized mini, single judged collectibility, or other unique class lists personally.
I also do think there should be more options for folks who feel like they've otherwise "graduated" from intermediate/novice but because the gap in pace of shows, depth of classlists & competition, and knowledge required with little time for feedback they may feel uncertain about Open level. I never push people faster than they are ready and in 10 years, I've never encountered anyone whom I truly felt was "taking a victory lap" in the learning divisions while obviously more than ready to move on. I truly want to see more casual/fun shows aimed at folks who are less or not at all in it for the competitive aspect and just want to have a good time. That's kind of what I was aiming for with Scratch & Dent, but with so little prep time and it being a brand new show I wasn't sure how everything would shake out. I hope that if I can bring it back, I'll be putting more thought into it all and making some adjustments (particularly to the guardrails of what I consider eligible).
For NENE, I am definitely considering doing more to split out non-Breyer in intermediate breed, since more folks have been bringing Stones in particular. If at least some separate classes and not another division. Every year I try to make adjustments based on the trends of the past few years, so I can keep serving folks as best as I can. :)
You are welcome to shadow me any time I am judging collectibility, as long as the host is ok with it! I do judge breed sometimes, but I feel like I am far better at explaining my thoughts and process for collectibility :D And I am also happy to mentor for hosting. Reach out any time!
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments from the prospective of a show host, judge, and competitor! You've raised many excellent points and explanations, such as the particular challenges of judging and why I've seen recent negative-ish comments regarding NAMHSA that I didn't know the reasoning behind (and I'm sure there is plenty more than what you've mentioned here).
I think because I'm still new and still have a somewhat limited show string, shows that include a bit of everything do appeal to me, but I can fully understand wanting to concentrate on shows that bring something different or more concentrated to the table. I also personally feel in a strange spot between Novice and Open. When I accidentally entered the mini show earlier this year, not even thinking about it being an Open level show, I definitely felt less pressure (put on myself by myself) than I do when showing Novice/Intermediate. I was truly just happy to get any ribbon! If I do end up going to Are You Kitten Me Live next year, I know it will be with the same attitude. Maybe that's a sign I should stick to Open? lol All I know is, my initial thought that I'd spend one year showing in Novice/Intermediate and then move on is not necessarily that straight-forward of a decision.
I really hope that Scratch and Dent returns someday, cuz I know I'll be back with my carpet herd and many new antiques store acquisitions. :)
I will keep you in mind the next time an opportunity to shadow comes up, or once I get a break from work and can organize my thoughts/hopes regarding hosting a show. I appreciate your willingness to help!
Glad you are having fun! It’s fun to see someone new making videos.🤗
Thank you! :)
Ah, showing. Judges are influenced by personal preferences & what’s popular. I used to etch & my etchies NAN qualified numerous times in different shows in different regions. One year at BF live my etchies finished 1-2-3 in the custom deco class. My etchies topped 10 at NAN. They did really well, yet there was one judge in my region who didn’t like etchies. She would not place them no matter what. I just learned not to show them when she judged the custom division.
Believe it or not judging model horse shows has had a couple of scandals. The most well known was a group of judges who were friends & knew each others models as well as their own would ALWAYS give first place to their friends models at shows with the understanding their friends would do the same. They could show a the Bell Bottom Shire as a Shetland & still get 1st. Luckily after much complaining NAMSHA quit letting them judge.
As for the newest molds being deemed the best & nearly always winning the first 3-5 years after being released - it’s nothing new. It’s always been that way. It’s the “Latest & Greatest Syndrome”. Every dog has its day & eventually even Hamilton will fall out of favor.
I also don’t like it when Stones show with Breyers.
I will never own a Stone because I personally heard Peter Stone make an insulting & derogatory comment about hobbyists. It was years ago in the Clarion during room sales back when the hotel was the Holiday Inn North. My friend & I were room shopping but got stuck in the hallway outside his room (it was in the 500 block just down from the doors that led out to the ballrooms) because of the crowd waiting to get in. He had just released the models that were painted to looked like polished rocks & everyone was excited to see & but them.
While my friend & I were wondering if we should turn around & go back Peter Stone & another man pushed their way into the hall. Peter Stone stopped in the middle of the crowd, looked around & said “These stew-ped b*tch*$ will buy anything.” All conversation stopped because almost everyone heard him since he spoke in a normal voice & we were all shocked. He smirked then pushed on through & went out the doors towards the ballrooms. Lots of the women walked away & the crowd thinned so my friend & I were able to continue on our way. After hearing that we both vowed never to buy a single Peter Stone. It’s a vow I’ve kept. It’s not that hard to keep it since I personally prefer Breyers. There’s some nice Stones but most of them just don’t appeal to me. They’re too cartoonish & more angular than Breyers. Add in the cost & having to order off the website during their sales & waiting months for the DYO. No thanks. I’ll stick with Breyers.
Your experience showing the etchies and learning to avoid a certain judge reminds me of going to shows with my Appaloosa as a teen. We primarily went to fun shows held at a local park, and it became super obvious that one judge in particular would straight up not even look at me on my loud leopard Appy in the Jr. English division - my parents confirmed it! Every other judge regarded us fairly, so most of the time it was not an issue.
That judging scandal is outrageous! I would have had a real difficult time holding my tongue, though it sounds like NAMHSA took their sweet time doing anything about it.
The Peter Stone story is also something, and aligns with a different comment I've heard from him. There's a model horse video from the 90s elsewhere on RUclips, and Peter Stone speaks several times. During one of those times he muses over why he thinks women like horses so much and his response was...creepy, to put it mildly. At least he's not involved with the current iteration of the company, but I can understand the experience you had putting one off of his horses forever. And as much as I've been reading lately about production issues, raising prices, etc. even *with* the new owners, I don't think PS models will ever be a huge part of my collection.
Yeah, judges are not supposed to let their own personal likes & dislikes sway their placings but so many do. That’s why I make notes on what wins under which judge so if they do have favorites or strong dislikes I can adjust my show string.
I’m hoping that the new owners of Stone can turn things around & make the models more easily accessible to all hobbyists but I’m not going to hold my breath.
Peter Stones most well known comment about his customers is referring to them as “Cash Cows”. So between his comments, high prices & the models not being readily available it’s not surprising his customer base is limited.
I sent you an email with some photos I hope you enjoy.
@@learobinson4450 Oh, fantastic! Alas, I am in the middle of another ridiculously busy day at work, but I'll have a proper moment to take a look this evening. :)