Collier Flintlock Revolvers
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- Опубликовано: 8 ноя 2016
- Elisha Collier is probably the best-known name in flintlock revolvers - to the extent that any flintlock revolvers are well known. Because of the great cost and required skill to manufacture a functional repeating flintlock handgun without modern machine tools, these weapons were never common, but they were made by a number of gunsmiths across Europe. Collier and a fellow American gunsmith named Artemis Wheeler developed this particular type (the specific contributions of each party are not known), and Collier patented it in England in 1818. He proceeded to market the guns, which appear to have been made for him under contract by several high-end British gunsmiths (including Rigby and Nock).
Collier made three different basic types of guns. They share the main feature of a revolving cylinder which must be indexed manually between shots (seeing them while traveling in India was reportedly the inspiration for Samuel Colt’s idea to connect the mechanical functions of hammer and cylinder to invent the single action revolver). The first two patterns of Collier are flintlocks, differing in lock and cylinder design, as well as having slightly different mechanisms to self-prime. The third pattern was actually made as percussion guns, as Collier’s guns were being made right at the end of the flintlock period and the dawn of the percussion cap. In total, 350-400 guns were made, including 50-100 bought by the British military for use in India.
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"Flintlock revolver rifle" is definitelly a combination of words I wouldn't expect to see anywhere other than this channel.
There’s a flintlock revolver pistol made in the late 16th century if you’re curious
Try a flintlock automatic gun.... (US Navy issue in 1799...).
"flintlock revolver musket" even less so
repeating flintlocks, now this is the kind of rare, fancy and truly forgotten kinda weapon i follow this channel for
jaggon jaggon can you guide me to any swivel flint lock bideos r guides? 2 barrels?
Ming dynasty triple gun
How fitting that a person named Wheeler would be involved in revolvers
I'm happy to know that I'm not the only one amused by this point.
it would be more fitting if her was involved in wheel-locks instead ... but anyhow..
EDIT: "HER" ?? wtf ... yes I see I typed "her" .. unsure why .. maybe my brain is still in shock.
More coffee needed?
But that's a good point. I kind of feel that him doing wheel locks would be too blunt and obvious over involvement with early revolvers.
What if he also happened to live in Wheeling, WV? Wheeler from Wheeling, that city was named perfectly for a guy like him.
could have been "COCK",would've been funny!..cock in the uk is a dick!
That frizzen system alone would have been a huge improvement.
I'm a fiction writer
I'm using 1700s for most of my technology
I need a character with a revolver
I don't want to introduce percussion caps and more advanced technologies than I absolutely have to
I find this video exactly when I need it
The internet is fucking amazing.
"Percussion caps? Concealed ammunition? Bah, it's a fad." - Man using flintlock, probably.
They're technically some of the only repeating rifles you can own in Canada without any license.
@@polygondwanaland8390 hmmm well even with this you could probably rob a lot of people in canada as long the US would mind there bussiness
since you know you have a gun ,they dont
😂😂😂😂
@jackthegamer On the other hand, they couldn't make their own percussion caps easily unlike finding a piece of flint. The same argument was used against metallic cartridges in the late 1800s and more recently in caseless ammo.
Even if the common impression of this style of action is a dangerous one, making the most common comments those about chain fires and forward grips, these weapons are some of the most highly engineered for safety that I have seen. Rebated chambers, coverplates, they've had safety taken into account and the users of the contemporary era found them an acceptable risk.
Bravo for finding these and showing them to us.
Thank you for the thorough and in depth reply, it offers a lot of potential for debate. As I would really enjoy having that debate, let me give you a small bit of background about myself. I am a gun owner, collector, and a shooter. I won't call myself an expert. I recognize that much of the information I have about certain guns, actions, and powers are from regurgitation of internet videos - I don't have access to many of the types of weapons available at an auction house or armory. I do enjoy shooting black powder but my experience with it comes from shooting reproduction cap and ball western action shooting revolvers. That is a great deal of fun, but I will readily admit it is done with modern reproductions and materials such as wadding and grease, and paranoia when it comes to seating the round over the powder.
One thing I don't think we need to debate is the expense of these weapons. They were not mass produced by any means, and they contain many more precision manufactured parts than their simpler competition of the day. Of course that would have made them expensive, and obviously much more so than a musket or revolver.
We really don't need to discuss the safety issues that are present in a revolver without an extended barrel or forward grip. All period firearms are going to have the same difficulties, such as variability in metallurgy and loading. What I think needs to be focused on here is the Collier, and what sets it and other revolving long guns apart from revolvers.
The lock and the cylinder in other words, would be my focus, with specific attention to what is done to prevent chain fires. Even though chain firing is a revolver problem too, it is of paramount importance with a revolving long gun. Other long guns have used designs of stock and grip to prevent the user from holding the weapon with the off hand in from of the cylinder. These Colliers do not. The designers probably thought that was unnecessary, as they had made the weapon with certain safety features to prevent chain firing.
The main thing that I see from the first model that shows that intent is the rebated chamber with fits around the barrel when in battery. In my opinion, the effectiveness of that lock-up is what determines how safe the design is going to be to fire fully loaded. We've all had experiences I'm sure, even with modern revolvers, of having hot gas bite our fingers when firing a revolver from a poor grip. Gas can and will find a way out through the smallest of crevices. What we have to look at is the amount, direction, and location of the expelled gas. With this weapon, spark from the lock is well behind the face of the cylinder, making it very unlikely chain fires would be initiated from stray spark from the flint. Internals being sound in metallurgy, spark from one chamber through the touch hole won't ignite another chamber. Chain fires are almost certainly going to be initiated from the from of the cylinder. In the Collier, when the cylinder is in battery and locked to the barrel, only a small portion of gas may escape from the sides of the chamber around the barrel. With the rebated chamber these gasses would be turned 180 degrees and then directed out over a 90 degree lip. Coanda effect of the lip on the passing gas should give us the maximum angle it can turn to, rearward. I think we're somewhere in the neighborhood of 23 degrees when we'd need atleast 90 to have a chance of coming into contact with the face of an adjacent chamber. My guess would be that not enough gas is expelled for this to be noticable if your hand was in front of the cylinder, and that at these angles any solid spark that was ejected would collect on the sides of the cylinder that just fired, instead of being able to turn through that much rotation to get out of the gap. Solid spark is heavy compared to gas.
Alot of that is speculation, and we're not able to take this to the range and have a day to indulge our curiosity so I'm afraid that's how it may have to stay. I'd love to hear thoughts on the lock-up and the gas expelled, I could easily be mistaken in my approach. There's a big difference between an "I'd shoot it." and a "That's safe, you can shoot it." The Collier is definitely one of the former, and the closest any revolving long gun has come to the latter.
After rereading your reply I notice that it isn't the safety of the firearm you're questioning, but the perception of safety in period. I can't answer to this directly but firearms with various locks had been around for centuries so I would imagine basic concepts and perhaps operation of firearms would have been common knowledge. We certainly have more efficient ways of communicating information now, so it may not have been comparable with today's level of familiarity. Enough to weigh a risk properly? I'm not really sure. Hesitance regarding new and unproven technologies that go boom is natural. If the idea was seen as a bad one in period it certainly would have had effects on sales as we do see here and in others of the type. But nevertheless it did usher in the revolver for single handed use - the idea had obvious merit. My assumption is that other failed designs similar to this one fouled the market it was trying to compete in, but I'm not familiar enough with the history to know.
@@daisyruin I know this is a very old post, but I only saw the video now. I'm not an expert either, but I have some observations. There are no front grips on the long guns, so I don't think you were suppose to place your hand in front of the cylinder. Instead, I think you were suppose to grip the cylinder itself. This would be convenient, being that you have to manually turn the cylinder anyway. The front of the four chambers not in line with the barrel are all completely unblocked by any parts, so if they were to chain fire, the balls would simply fly down range safely. The exception is the pistol, which has a removable front cover. I suppose the cover would probably fly off the front safely in a chain fire, but it might damage the gun, so that seems less than ideal. Maybe the front cover was for carrying and was meant to be removed before firing. Anyway, it seems to me that if you hold the cylinder there is really no danger to the shooter in the event of a chain fire.
@@justforever96 Well, regular cheapass musket wasn't most safe or reliable gun either by modern standarts.
I once saw a revolver from 1610's! These flintlock repeaters are amazingly crafty!
MrPanos2000 yeah I believe I’ve seen a wheel lock revolver from 1597. There might have been a matchlock one as well
Yep I found it. It’s an 8 chambered matchlock from 1580.
Link? Reference?
They need to make modern reproductions of these...
I want one...
I also want one.
There are also practical applications:
Hunting: Useful for muzzleloading season, not limited to one shot and don’t have to mess with a musket cap.
Defense: Much less likely, but in a scenario where no ammunition or primers or percussion caps could be found (kind of like now) something like this could be useful, you can make black powder, cast bullets, and Knapp flint, that’s all you have to have to shoot, not practical compared to more modern firearms but better than nothing.
Also just freakin’ cool.
It's amazing to think that you had 2 options for 5 shots around this sort of time: you carry 5 loaded pistols, or one of those revolvers
There were multi-barreled options for a middle-ground and those early repeating flintlocks were rare and expensive luxuries few could afford as few could make them. Plus a complex gun has more that could go wrong. A military would favor economy and reliability, but a wealthy individual may pay a premium for performance. Still, once precession caps become available, flintlocks become a novelty.
Someone should make a book about this. Wait a minute...
I love the design and engineering of all these old guns they nearly all have ingenious little ideas to make them work
dang, these are cool. you should publish a book about them!
Do you think anyone would actually buy it? ;)
Awesome look at the inspiration for the single action colt! A lot of firepower for its time!
Thanks for this video. I just finished reading RIVERS WEST, by Louis L'Amour, and a pair of these Collier revolvers are used by the main character. I could not imagine a revolver in 1823, and your excellent video explained all and made the novel much more historically appreciable.
If you combined the Ferguson rifle breech loading mechanism with the self priming method of colliers and made the barrel screw off like a Queen Anne pistol for cleaning or put on a new one while the other one can be clean later I think you could get a really fast firing rifle that's easier to clean up.
These seem much safer than the Lorenzoni guns.
Though the trade off is lengthened time for reloading.
Auction prices puzzle me, the estimates for these extremely rare, beautifully crafted examples are less then some more common WW2 stuff or the closing for the Vietnam era AK from the previous auction... Feels like, relatively speaking, these estimates are missing a digit; or some things are waaay overpriced.
A lot of it has to do with interest in the subject. WWII Weapons are incredibly popular because of all of the history and media surrounding them. This is a rare firearm type from a relatively unknown manufacturer that doesn't have a lot of provenance, so that's going to hurt the value...
Maciej Pociecha I get what you mean, but in the end it comes down to supply and demand. Yeah the supply of these guns is super low, but so is the demand. Someone could be asking for the 10,000 they feel like it deserves for being such an awesome piece, but they'll never find someone to buy it. Selling it for 1000 (for example) may seem tragically low, but it's better than it just sitting forever.
Demand probably contributes to price more than rarity.
Most things are waaay overpriced.
Overpriced or underpriced really mean nothing in antique auctioning. The seller would be happy to sell to the highest bidder above a certain price (to cover the purchase cost and the handling of the item and auction which are negligible because they sell multiple items in auctions).
Plus, you're not paying for the gun itself but for its historical value. Actually manufacturing a gun like that (that is mechanically sound and looks the same) would cost a fraction that amount given a talented craftsman with access to modern tools.
Really a very clever method of delivering priming powder to the pan. That's a pretty remarkable level of engineering for the time frame.
What great examples of rare technology and progression. You always find something awesome Ian!
God I want someone to make a preproduction of these.
The Collier is my dream gun.
Very interesting pieces. Beautiful craftsmanship and precision made too.
Very clever design, and i find it amazing how many times you see such things throughout history. Yet such innovation never takes off until later. Which baffles my mind, since you should have people who look at such things and go "that is very promising, I should see where this can be taken". Then again i shouldn't be to surprised.
John J the Americans wanted a bolt action rifle during the Spanish American war and ended up implementing it with great success, but only after denying an Eric Georgenson offered them the first ever bolt action with some 4 or 5 cartridge.
Because they were stupid expensive. It's easy for us to look at this stuff in hindsight as being ahead of its time, but it's like questioning why all bikes aren't made of carbon fiber. Yeah the tech is miles ahead, but you pay a big premium. It's only when someone comes out with a way to make it economical that it really takes off.
Thanks for another well informed, and interesting video. Your explanation about the Samuel Colt connection makes so much more sense than his getting the idea for the revolver from the steering wheel on a ship.
The ship steering wheel had a locking mechanism that inspired the indexing system on Colt's revolvers. The cylinder needs to be indexed to the barrel on firing, otherwise the revolver may explode. Colts automatically rotated and indexed when the hammer was pulled back- this was the major breakthrough, along with using percussion caps.
Now I see Sam Colts inspiration for the 1855 revolving rifle and shotgun. Right down to the side hammer.
Minutes ago I saw this revoler in World of Guns 'game'. So I felt I need to find video about this beauty in Forgotten Weapons. And I was lucky! :)
Imagine how special you must feel to hold one of these weapons.
Imagine how special you would have felt to use one of these in battle in 1814? You'd be like Robocop compared to the enemy.
@@Wallyworld30 my dumbass thought you said 1914 and i was about to question my sanity
@@soabac0835 Yeah by 1914 if you pulled this out on a battlefield you just might survive because the enemy would be unable to aim because they are laughing so hard.
@@Wallyworld30 it is true yeah, that's what i was thinking, but i can only imagine the joy of the enemy soldier picking up your gun and hanging it up on his wall
Not as special as the commenters making awesome jokes that never get old or annoying in this commentection
Those are far more special kids
Beautiful weapons, so well engineered and executed.
Awesome description and conversation about these firearms.
That powder box frizzen is the coolest thing ever!!!!
First thing i wondered when I saw this was "How do you keep all the flash holes primed at once???". So clever!
The crafting and fitting of such weapons of that era amazes me. I would like to see the process.
Beautiful guns, particularly the second pattern ones.
At last! Gorgeus pieces of craftsmenship, simply magnificent!
stuff like this is why i like this channel. very cool.
Read about those in a book. I never imagined the fitting and the overall quality to be so good.
and this is why I signed up. I love this channel :P
I got a buddy, Yakob, bit of a birdbrain but one hell of a witch hunter, he uses one of these, best shot I've ever seen
Pretty darn cool! I have a couple percussion revolvers. Never thought of a flintlock!
They are looking fookin awesome
These are beautiful guns.
I think I'm in love with the smoothbore first-pattern gun :)
Modern replicas of flintlock revolving long guns may be in demand in Canada, where firearms require rather complicated licensing process and long barreled flintlocks are exempt.
Great video Ian! Any ideas on the ballistics of any of them?
Jesus, the craftsmanship that had to go into that is awesome. It is absolutely beautiful.
Hesus Ian. That was very informative.
Clever system.... and very workable by the look of it.
Those are amazing!
These are really cool.
Outstanding!
man these are so cool!
Thank you..
Inside World of Guns Gun disassembly, this gun was added recently
Outstanding video, I have read books about it but they never explained how the priming box worked..
Excellent history!
Cool i needed this kind of weapons as references for a 3d model i working.
I love the look of that brass cylinder. And oh Ian, your links are dead :)
i wanna see that revolver in action
I love rotary and or revolver action rifles. I would like to have more educational vids on why the idea is or was more expensive enough to make them not profitable.
Very cool!
Excellent! Can't imagine it's made hundreds years ago!
thank you for the video Ian ! I always wondered how the self priming worked now I know also I wonder why colliers self priming method was not copied on other guns and how hard wound it be to convert a standard guns frizzen to the self priming method ? does not seem too hard.
👍 excellent, thank you!
i love this channel but i really miss that intro music you had :( great vids regardless
Fascinating.
That pistol is fabulous.
Uhm, I have a question. The usual problem with repeating revolving rifles is the lack of seal between the cylinder and the bore. This system has it figured out brilliantly. Why did no one do that on the percussion/metal jacketed revolvers? If they did, what would be an example of one? It seems like a really damn neat system one lever away from solving all of the revolving rifle problems. I know it's not even remotely that simple, but come on, if something can be done by hand you can definitely engineer a way to do it with a lever.
It's very expensive, and still not really perfect.
Yeah seems like a front cover or a valve like seated cylinder would really have helped a lot of that later junk...
They are really cool
Now imagine a Wheellock Revolver...
Very nice guns
It's always interesting to see the final life of a technology and the beginning of another.
first pattern caliber ...nice
Holy shit! I didn't suspect something like this to ever exist!
That pistol is quite beautiful.
Wow, those are some beautiful pieces, especially that huge brass cylinder. Too bad it would be impractical to make a modern replica, I would really love to try them out.
I can only imagine what could come from a collaborative project between these two and Hall
This would be perfect for repeating handgunners in warhammer.
very cool
Btw, dr. Fergusson from the Royal Armouries would show automatic revolving flintlock at 2021 ;-)
To bad they didn't make them like a double action revolver. That would have been amazing 🤤🤤
beautiful guns,they will not be cheap
I can't wait to see what these go for. I would also love to own one but money is not something I have a ton of
I have always wanted to ask you what your favourite weapon was, maybe even the top few?
When I first saw that one had a bayonet, I thought, "There's a British influence on Collier!"
I wonder if Sam colts idea for how to automatically revolve the cylinder cane from the frizzen system on the model 1...same concept really...what do you think Ian?
I found one in my great grandpas old mansion, which is now my cousins house but it was built by him and wasnt lived in for the last century
Wouldn't the recoil during firing cause the cylinder to move back and render the "gas seal" feature useless? Is it locked forward when the hammer drops?
Big spring.
A spring so big, that a person can push it back but a powder charge cannot?
The mechanics are gonna be different. You'd be surprised the sorts of forces people can exert with mechanics- and there's differences in Work done, time, momentum, etc. etc.
Blah-blah-blah, many general words, little actual sense? ;)
I suppose the inertia of the cylinder would be many times more than the projectile. Maybe 10-30 times more I guess. So according to that bloke who sat under the apple tree, it would accelerate rearwards at a rate 10-30 times less than the projectile, and in the opposite direction (assuming you had the rest of the weapon rigidly mounted). So in a given time period (fraction of a second) the cylinder would have recoiled 10-30 times less far than the projectile has move forward. Given that the rebate is approx. 2-5mm by the looks of it, then the seal wouldn't be broken until the projectile was between 20mm (10x 2) and 150mm (30x 5) up the bore. Obviously I've just guessed those figures, but the principle is sound I think. Factor in a big spring to slow the cylinder's recoil some more, and chances are the pressure might have dropped enough to be safe enough to minimise the chance of chain fire. Certainly better than any non-rebated cylinder design. At least I think so! ;)
Hey Ian, have you ever fired a flintlock or musket type weapon?
Sure.
Slow but hard recoil impulse?
The ignition method has nothing to do with recoil. A flintlock with a small powder charge will be soft-shooting; one with a heavy charge will kick. I've shot examples of both. Here's the hefty one: ruclips.net/video/SJvesjGissE/видео.html
Forgotten Weapons
I did a search on your channel (flintlock) and have enjoyed watching, the 10 bore flintlock rifle, the Ferguson Breech loading flintlock, and the Lorenzoni Repeating Flintlock Pistol.
I bet you don't see many of those types of weapons, or even wheel lock types.
Forgotten Weapons
I wonder how difficult it would be to create a replica of something like this today
So what did the Pattern 3 bring to the table and how many shots worth of priming powder could those priming boxes hold?
The carbine is I believe what Allan Mallinson describes in his Matthew Hervey series about a post Napoleonic Light Dragoon.
These are Amazing! Why were these Nor Universally Adopted at the time?
I love these sort of pre-industrial revolution firearms that were trying new ideas before it just sort of came together.
I need a video and history lesson on double barrel swivel flint locks. Were the reliable unlike the the pepprbox? When was the first swivel flint lock recorded or produced?
I like these guns, they speak to me.
I'm curious if any other revolver-rifles used something like that recessed chamber method? (with the exception of the Nagant obviously)?
One word that comes to mind with these weapons.
*Dangerous.*
BAN ASSAULT FLINTLOCKS
Shapecharge08 haha lol
Assault Flintlocks need to have no more than ten round cylinders is why, that's why... You can't have people running around the streets with ASSAULT FLINTLOCKS...
I am not shure if its more dangerous for the shooter or the one being shot at.
I was wondering if the flint failed to ignite yhe powder, that means the remaining powder on the pan needs to be disposed to avoid the priming system failing right?
Ian, have you ever talked about "Cape Guns", they were made for use in South Africa and had four barrels? One side by side, shotgun, then a pair of large bore rifles under and over.
Are they are bit like a Drilling but a drilling have just 3 barrels ?
Thanks Ian.
Am I the only one to ask if these have a Damascus barrel ?
They seem to have a spiral pattern.
I wonder why:
1) They didn't make it 6 shot if the powder box held 3 shots worth, that way it would be divisible.
2) They got rid of that cool powder box for the 2nd design.