Colt "Brevete" Copies: Legal, Illegal, and Post-Legal
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- Опубликовано: 26 ноя 2016
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When you think about early revolver patent infringement, the name that probably comes to mind is Rollin White. But Sam Colt had more than his share of infringement to deal with as well! Colt's most important patent was on the linking of the hammer and cylinder, so that cocking the hammer would automatically rotate and index the cylinder (basically, the single action concept). He patented this in the US and throughout Europe around 1836, but his initial business efforts in Paterson, New Jersey were a failure. It wasn't until the late 1840s that he created a really successful revolver design. By this time, more than half of his patent period had passed, leaving him only until the early 1850s to exploit his legal monopoly on his ideas.
European and American gunmakers were making unlicensed (illegal) copies of his guns from the first Paterson days, although they really took off in popularity with copies of the 1851 Navy model. Colt reacted to this by setting up a licensing fee system and hiring an agent to represent the company at the Liege proofhouse in Belgium, where it was possible to intercept most of the illegitimate guns. Those deemed of sufficient quality could pay 10 Francs and be stamped "Colt Brevete", rendering them licensed and the manufacturer safe from legal action by Colt.
These Brevete Colt copies are a whole world of interesting collecting by themselves, and one that is ignored by most Colt devotees. In this video, I take a look at 9 different examples to give you an idea of the wide variety of guns that were made both as licensed copies, illicit unlicensed copies, and legal unlicensed copies made after Colt's patents expired.
If you are interested in learning more about these guns, I strongly recommend the book "Colt Brevete Revolvers" by Roy Marcot and Ron Paxton: amzn.to/2e9t73O
A German made firearm without markings and serial numbers on every single piece, part, and loose screw on it? I don't believe you.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Love my Gmbh, little pos just tickles me.
I mean they make plastic firearms that melt
In most of 19th century, "German-made" carried very similar connotations as "Chinese-made" does today (at least in the english-speaking world)- that being low quality, mass produced, cheap goods. It was only during the late 1870s-1880s that Germany started to turn that reputation around as heavy investment in industry from the newly-formed German state allowed german industry to catch up to more developed industries in the UK and France.
Lol, my Rohm .22 immediately sprang to mind. #notallgermanguns
@@marshall00jjr Yes! Ugly, little, slab sided thing with the absolute least amount of machine work necessary to function, but function flawlessly, it did.
20:29 that guy was revolutionary, he put a smiley in the trigger guard of a gun in the 1800s
Colt "Brevete" Copies: Legal, Illegal, Post-Legal, Illegalstep, Legalwave, Illegalcore
HeavyLegal
Speed Legal, Folk Legal
Garage legal, alternative legal, legal punk, steam legal.
Deathlegal
A. Lampman What? I do not get it.
Back in the '60s my brother was in the Army, stationed at Sinope, Turkey. He wrote me that he could get six Colt revolvers for $90, so I jumped at the chance. When I got them, they were God-awful copies of the M1851. REALLY bad. Because of the design flaw, they ended up being the "Swayback model" where they sagged in the middle where the barrel met the cylinder. Some had "Saml Coult" on the barrel, others were unmarked. I took one apart to clean it and nearly crapped at how bad the workmanship was. Screw threads looked like they were scribed on and I could barely get it back together again. I suspect some of these saw service in the Crimean War as they were super scroungy, but that's just my thought. I ended up selling them for $25 each at a Yuma, AZ gun show a few years later and kissed my hands that I made out so well.
Hah! I was stationed at Sinop in 1971/72 and bought one of these too. Mine was marked Colt Brevette but the quality was about what you describe. I was told they were made by prison labor.
Never thought I'd be the kinda guy to take interest in markings and such. You're turning me into a nerd, Ian.
Bwahahaha! My evil plans are working! :)
Forgotte
@ n Weapons
Forgotten Weapons لا
Forgotten Weapons لالا
Forgotten Weapons لالا
Makes me think of the Japanese guitars of the '70s that copied Gibson designs. Lots of garbage, but a few brands like Tokai and Greco that still sell for about the same price that a modern secondhand Gibson would. Great way to get a vintage '58 burst without paying for a '58 burst.
I immediately thought of guitars too.
I actually play a very nice 1969 Jedson SG Bass from Japan from this era of copied Gibson designs. Great instrument and good quality.
I've got a Takamine copy of a Guild F512 from the 70s, and it's one of my favorite acoustic guitars.
love ur pfp lol
I love the technical terminology from Ian to describe the sub-par guns.
"Eeeuuuggghhh"
The $17000 francs in 1850 is something like $3,000,000 US today.
So ~$300,000 for two years pay, when all you had to do was put a crooked stamp on the barrel of pistols and take the money? Sounds like the job for me!
i know this was 4 years ago, but its closer to 250-300k today, so far less
"He's gonna be annoyed he finds you out"
Yea, do not piss off zombie Sam Colt.
Given some of the stories of that man’s temper, best not temp fate
Kids: mom can we get Colt 1851 navy revolver
Mom: we have Colt 1851 navy revolver at home
Colt 1851 navy revolver at home: 22:27
@@Org80 if you build it,its more fun and the Australian government can go kick rocks.
I find it ironic that Colt's legacy is carried on by today almost entirely by foreign companies making unlicensed copies of his designs.
is "eeeuughhh" a technical term?
Absolutely.
I can assure you, in French, it is. For real. It's not in the dictionnary and it's never written, only spoken, but, it's used surprisingly often in many serious discussions and usually manages to convey thoughts better than words would.
It's great, that Ian picks up the topic of copyright and patent, which was a big discussion in the comments a few videos ago. This shows how close Ian is to the community and viewers' issues.
almost 100% sure these are unrelated things
I'm just shocked all those cylinders clicked when you turned them, the hand spring on my first Pietta stopped doing that after two range visits and these hundred plus year old knock offs are still going strong lol.
The receiver at 17.12 is brass, it's the silver colour that is wearing off. You can see this in the high wear areas.
Walker Texas Ranger saved Colt firearms?
Time travelling Chuck Norris saves the day again!
LOL
Walker was a Sgt. not a Cpt.
R. B. Rozier 🤷🏻♂️
Chuck met with the Immortal Incarnation of Time, (Chronos), and lay a beating on him so VICIOUS that...this 'TIME' guy hasn’t touched Chuck in years-apparently some twenty-five years!!
Copyright that and send Chuck a script "Time-Walker Texas Ranger!".
one wicked smiley face at 20:35
I'm glad I'm not the only one to see it.
When "kindof a vaguely Colt-shaped gun" is the best description of your personal protection, you probably should have ponied up a little more cash comrade.
This thought gives me an irrational urge to photoshop a gun barrel and trigger onto a MLP toy. Perhaps fortunately it's not a sufficiently strong urge to get me to actually hunt down the requisite art.
@@nathanbrown8680 good news! I photoshopped exactly what you described. Bad news: I'm terrified of my creation
Aren´t Colt guns vaguely "Collier-shaped"?
20:31 its staring into my soul.
I was wondering if anyone noticed how face-like that particular "engraving" looked.
Smileys!!!
Although the one on the trigger guard could be mistaken for female body parts at first glance :-P
Looks like a rare pepe
@@themoldycrow4890 or like that neighbour-frog from roccos modern life. i don't know what would be more surreal.
It's a troll face.
Trolling the buyer and Mr. Colt at the same time.
I like to imagine Sam Colt's ghost roams around in the afterlife chasing down these unlicensed gunmakers and beating them up for besmirching his good name.
In upper case fonts, at this time they didn't write accents, but it is actually supposed to say "BREVETÉ" with an accent on the final E of breveté (because that is a past participle of the verb to patent [something] ("breveter [quelque chose]" (whose final R is mute, btw)).
The "-é" at the end of "breveté" is here just like "-ed" at the end of the english word "patentED"... so fyi, one would be supposed to say something a little more like "bruh-vtay" (or alternatively "bruh-vuh-tay" depending on the region) than "bruh-vaytt"
... though you got the pronunciation of the first half absolutely right which is very often tricky for other Americans. Moreover, all of that french nerdery is not very important at all because the video is great and as usual I learnt a lot thanks to it! You're the best Ian :D
I love the idea of a cylinder scene, I wish we saw more of that today
The one with the hunting dog scroll really looks quite nice.
You are an outlaw.You are challenged to a duel by a local.Your palms get very sweaty because you know your gun is not a legitimate copy.The local shoots you with his authentic Colt revolver.You lay on the floor and squirm like a worm while your blood drains off.You look up at the man who took your life, his gun gleaming in the sunlight. The last thing you see... 20:31 :)
...that stupid grin on the trigger guard. Insult to injury
The last sound that comes from your dying throat...'Eeeeuugh'.
in french, "breveté" can be translated into "patented". though i'm not sure if it's really more about a patent, or a manufactured good authorised with a licence (like the "apple official reseller" type of deal). it's an old inscription, so standards and nomenclatures probably changed since then, enough that it may not really be accutrate in today's terms..
Really digging these revolver uploads, keep 'em up!
Wow that 2nd one with engraving and partially-turned barrel looks really nice.
Smart move by the Gunsmith, you would be able to spot his work from across the room if that was a calling-card feature he included on all his guns.
That little octagon section on the end kinda makes it look like there's a compensator.
Yeah that particular Colt Brevete is gorgeous. I would not have felt ripped off if I purchased that pistol at the time. I think the last of the 'meh' Colts (the one before the bad examples) would've been nice too if it had proper markings and proofing.
I really enjoy these slightly longer videos, where you really "nerd out" in some forgotten corner of firearms history. Big fan of the channel. Keep up the good work.
A personal request: An original swiss SIG p210 "Neuhausen" 9MM. They are still a standard sidearm in the danish army (I've shot one, when I was a conscript), but I've yet to come across any quality videos on it anywhere, and would love to know more about it. (It's a fantastic shooter, btw)
I have always wished I could afford one. Here in the U.S. of A., a P-210 can cost $4,000 for a 'perfect' one, and that is ONLY if you can find someone willing to part with theirs.
Sometimes the realy crappy forgeries are the most fun, In a what the hell was the maker thinking way.
The barrel of the Russian one looks bent upwards slightly, to me at least.
I think it is tilted upward, or at least it's weird handle makes it look like it is.
Also funny how it being the shittiest and most blatant knock-off sold for the most by far. O_o I've no clue why.. Some dumbass with too much money getting caught in a bidding war I presume.
@planescaped There is an entire collecting niche where they get bad copies of things.
Haha "Vaguely Colt shaped gun"
Maybe "Colt shaped object" is even better, I would be concerned to use some of these as anything but a paperweight.
Excuse me Ian, but the flag is incorrect. You need to use the Earth flag shown in Futurama.
Ah, but he always uses the flags employed at the time of manufacture.
Where applicable.
Zoidberg will just eat it. What’s the point.
this will be my first auction ever and I can't wait ! thank you very much for all your videos 😀
When you compare the BREVETE on the "square back triggerguard" with the BREVETE from the first guns, you can also see those stripes on the engraving. Ian said the square trigger guard was legit, but to me the BREVETE seems engraved not stamped. You can see it very good around 17:55
Thank you Ian. Very interesting and info I did not know. Great video as usual.
This is actually pretty cool, I love seeing guns that partially use official parts and guns that have wacky shapes compared to what I think of as the standard profiles.
Thank you for this very nice presentation of this colt brevet area of collecting very, very interesting. You do a very nice job in your presentations simple, visual and clear.
I would watch your video's, if you didn't have any guns in front of you. Your history lessons are that good.
That's a fact, he could've taught my history class in my junior of year high school.
You don't like guns?
No, he means that he would watch his videos even if it wasn’t gun-related because he’s such a good storyteller
Kinda reminds me of the dutch mannlicher carbines episode. And by that i mean the amount of items on display
The last gun you showed looks like someone looked at a picture of a Colt for 10 seconds and then tried to build one from memory.
Great video yet again. Please do one on the Mauser HsC.
so, what happened to guns that when inspected to be issued with a colt brevet, what happened to guns that were NOT accepted for the patent? destroyed?
I imagine they were turned down, like "Yeah... No. Nice try, bub."
The German gun, last one shown before the 'crappy ones': it had a foresight which looked too big for the slot it was in, and was overhanging on both sides. It seemed to me to have been added much later; (by someone who only wanted a front sight and didn't care about looks. Likely belonged to another kind of gun.) if comparing the fairly neat finish of everything else was anything to go by.
The agent and lawyer Davos-Sera sounds like he may have been the world's first copyright settlement troll.
great long vid. seems the Sunday long video is becoming a norm haha. informative and brilliant as always.
am I the only one appreciating how funny does the word "revolutionary" sounded describing a revolver
Very informative video!
Thanks for sharing.
Also do more Civil War Guns and Artillery Pieces ...DO a forgotten weapons on 12pd Napoleon cannons or Lee Enfield pattern Rifled Muskets....loved the ones you did on the Sharps rifle and the Henry rifle even if they are rather lightly used for specialty troops back then but damn they were cool also if you already did those episodes let me know where to find em cause im missing them along the way. Love the Videos and love all the period guns you have a very calm and easy to listen to voice and you show off the coolest guns in history.
20:21 I've thought about trying to hand engrave firearms before, and honestly that's way better than I could ever do.
20:35 the Engraving on the trigger guard looks like a face drawn by a kindergartner.
Watching Ian talk shit about someone's great granpappy's hand engraving is the best part of my day.
Wow Ian that was an amazingly informative video. As an Aussie who doesn't see much in the way of firearms, historic or otherwise. I would never even be able to guess that half of those were essentially knock offs. Do keep up your Brilliant work. Cheers!
excellent presentation.. thanks Ian :)
I like the one with the numbered screws to go in the numbered holes for sheer "Why?" factor.
THANKS for a fine exposition of a subtopic in the Colt black powder revolver world!
I’ve done some Architectural Sculpting where I have seen that pattern of engraving on building flourishes. I am pretty certain you could date the gun with the "child’s doodles" from the pattern of engraving. I will see if I can find it in one of my pattern books.
I can just imagine ol' Sam Colt pulling his hair out and getting his trousers in a twist over the counterfeit "Colt" guns coming out of the Phillipines and Afghan Alley LOL.
I hate to do it but my inner nerd demands it "Engravings give you no tactical advantage whatsoever."
Also while I'm already going there. "This is the greatest handgun ever made. The Colt Single Action Army. Six bullets, more than enough to kill anything that moves."
In older blued steel guns engraving can actually give you a minor tactical advantage it can help diffuse glare from the sun
This is a nice addendum to the “Peacemaker and It’s Rivals”.
Hey Ian, any way you can do a video on a Dardick pistol?
It is on my list; just need to find one. I had a chance a year or two back, but the gun was broken. I do have about a dozen trounds stashed away in case I'm able to do some shooting at some point.
Forgotten Weapons Nice to know it's in the works.
Keep doing what you're doing. It's appreciated.
This is a great video. Have you ever done a video on a U.S.1892 Krag? I can't find it if you. have.
Interesting as usual. I don't know how patents were based in 1830 but today that wouldn't be allowed in UK. Using the hammer to turn the cylinder is an idea - not patentable - how you use the hammer to turn the cylinder is patentable. Watt patented the crank to convert linear motion to rotary, but there are lots of other ways to do it which don't use a crank.
Such an interesting story, this legal matter. And as ever, beautiful old items.
That freaky smiley on the trigger guard at 20:28 what the hell.
On that last one, you can see the cylinder gap open and close as the cylinder is rotated. I guess that was a feature so you knew which chamber you were on by the amount of fire blowing out...
I kinda love that last one. Very unique profile!
wow, I can definitely see why these colt copies are so interesting. My favorite is the Belgian one with the hunting dogs.
That is one happy trigger guard at 20:30
VERY INFORMATIVE, THANKS
I've noticed that some of the worse copies seem to have the barrel angled in relation to the cylinder
I think that this is my favorite forgotten weapons video... And I love the fg42 so that means a lot
That Russian one 21:24 was scary, it didn't even look like the barrel was in line with the cylinder!
Its so bizarre how the bidding went on the pistols. The "nicer" ones tending on the cheaper side and in my opinion the worst made one, Russian: $10,925
Ian, I noticed something about the second revolver you show in this video. It seems to have safety pins on the back of the cylinder similar to most modern colt reproductions but missing in the original colts. Was this common?
the one on the far left front is that on that is trying to be ascetically different enough that its legal
That last one seems like it would be less flippy, if nothing else
just as extra info, it only spells "BREVETE" because it's in caps, the real word used here is "breveté" (patented) - which means in this context "Colt - Breveté" = "patented by colt"
Another thing to consider people penny-pinched a lot in those days, if they could just buy an unengraved cheap knock-off for 1/4 the price they would.
I bet the tooling was fascinating since all these are handmade in a time when a much higher percentage of the world's population was a skilled craftsman. Almost no one today could even begin to make these kind of things without computer-controlled mills.
The last gun looks more like an umbrella handle than a Colt.
Love that last one, looks a lot like a Pettengill Dragoon.
the last 1 kinda looks like it would be a target gun, low bore access , maybe colt action rather than colt pattern ?
looked like a Smith an Wesson #1 mixes with a Colt!!
I was thinking an old pepperbox that got retrofitted to a "Colt" revolver.
TheWantabeWarrior I was looking at the one in preticluar the one with the more rounded butt!!
That last one looks interesting; the bore axis seems a lot lower. I wonder why it is not a more popular grip style?
Lazarus Long - didn't Demolition Ranch just do a video on a modern pistol with this orientation of barrel?
Ian, if you run across a Sharps snake eye it would be appreciated, also the AMT back up!
20:30 is that a smiley face on bottom of trigger guard lol.
the German one has some nice designs and styling by the trigger guard frame and barrel area
+Forgotten Weapons are the numbres at 19.44 assembly numbres? (to know which screw fits which hole)
And wouldn't the hammer block the sights on the last gun?
The revolver at 13:36 is beautiful. If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was a legitimate Colt. It just goes to show not all knockoff guns are bad, and that there's a huge range of quality that you can find. I didn't expect to enjoy this video as much as I did. I always enjoy videos on knockoff guns--especially Chinese knockoffs--but this video was inherently fascinating.
easy to see its not a legitimate Colt ...all Navy 1851 from Colts have a Cylinder scene with the Texian Sea battle ,ok the Octagonal Barrel can later tuned in a round barrel like a southern Copy
Haha colt seems like a chill dude, they should've done that with the bored through cylinder patent
It's like with toys the knockoffs eventually become collectable that last one looks more like a savage navy
That last one does get your hand away from any cylinder spray or chainfires, awkward as it looks.
Just to be clear (US general law):
Patents - Generally the design of a physical object, but can include more abstract concepts. Lasts 10-20 years, does not require enforcement to keep, and must be registered with a national government.
Copyright - The content of a work of art. Lasts extremely long (70+ years), does not require enforcement to keep, and does not require registration. The act of simply creating the work grants you copyrights, although registration grants some benefits.
Trademark - The general presentation of something in commerce. Basically if someone can reasonably confuse someone else's product with yours, it may violate your trademark. Lasts as long as you continue to use it, requires registration, and you must enforce it. If you slip and your product name becomes the general term for the item, you may lose your trademark.
Trademarks are also defined within a certain context. For example FedEx has trademarked the color brown, but only within the context of shipping.
If these counterfeit guns were not stamped and sold as Colt weapons, then they are violating patent law. If they are stamped and sold as Colt weapons then they are violating both patent and trademark law.
Never realized so many faked pistols around
i wonder how many days it took for each gun
So this is why S&W made Rollin White cover the hassle of protecting his patent
19:48 you can see that on that cheaper copy, the walnut grips were made from slightly too fresh wood, because it shrunk more than some of the others. in most cases, gun makers have nicely dried wood on hand because they were already in business and had enough money to stock up on wood 10 years ago or more. if they were just getting into it, they would have had to either use too fresh wood, or pay significantly more for old wood from somewhere. if a maker never made enough money to buy a big stock of wood, they would have never gotten out of that dilemma.
I have a Belgian made Centaur, Colt 1860/1960 commemorative still new in the box. It’s looking for a good home.
10:12 The description of a bad gun I have every seen.
I don't want to be a pain Ian but - Ever heard about the WA2000? Now THAT would be a rare gem!
13:35 Now I know what I want to do to my Italian 1851 Sheriff's barrel. I'm not a fan of the octagonal barrel as a whole, and I don't want the fuss of having to re-dovetail the lever catch.
I actually really like the final example
Dumb question, but how is that proof mark applied to a finished gun? Do they just mallet it hard? Does this not deform parts?