Tomer enters the pediatric ward, with a fully optimized CEDH deck with alternate art, and 12 alpha basics. A child, age 6, approaches him. "Please sir, take this Mulldrifter I made, *cough cough*". Tomer looks upon the scribbled flying fish presented before him. "Sorry sick kid, but I can draw better than this"
@@beurtalvarez note he said alpha basics the other 12 are basics from different sets, Tomer is the type of person that would be the one to find a cEDH deck that is only good and fully optimized if all of the lands in it are basic
Punching someone for a counterspell? No way In my playgroup we limit ourselves to curses, death threats and overall scream like a pack of rabid monkeys like true gentlemen
30:28 Tomer on infinites 34:38 Crim on board wipes 56:44 Seth on “…yeah but most people are stupid Tomer…” 1:01:20 Phil on scooping 1:21:14 Tomer (again) on hospitalized children
Funniest early concede memory was a friend keeping a greedy hand reliant on him going Land>Lotus petal>Sylvan Library as player 1 and just digging for more mana. Then saying "I'm not gonna be mad if you guys blow it up, but I'm conceding if you do cause my hand is dead without it" the rest of the table shared a look of "We have to blow it up" and someone did a turn 1 or 2 natures claim, and they stood up, packed their cards, left while repeating multiple times they weren't salty and just walked away. "I'm not mad" still a running joke to us years later
i took a 2 land hand with urza's saga. turn 3 someone oppo agented me and took my sol ring safter saccing saga. i had 1 land and my plan went to shit so i i just scooped cause i was now 3-5 turns behind. obviously i was pretty salty but i also thought it was pretty funny and i said would've done the same thing but i wouldn't be able to do shit for several turns so it was now just a waste of time.
That play scenario could lead to a great memory...just don't broadcast it. Several yrs ago I accepted a hand w/ zero land & a Land Tax in it. My first draw was a Plains & I won the game, only letting the table know afterwards how tenuous my opening hand was.
On the topic of breaking deals, I personally just think people should rarely ever make deals beyond one or two actions. I'll accept stuff like "If I let you draw/tutor here then you use any removal you get on X target", but any deal that goes longer than a turn cycle I think is far too committal, if the stakes change you can be forced to either make a bad play or break a deal.
Oh and the deals that work better are deals with cards people know about. If you have the answer on board then everyone is way more likely to make the deal than if it's not. Even if the card in hand is common knowledge from a tutor effect or something like that. I really like to play mid-low power Zur because you get to search up cards like Seal of cleansing or Seal of Doom. You have an answer on board people can see, and you can directly make deals. (The issue is people then see CEDH Zur so I get hard targeted sometimes for playing him)
Tomer calling out the "Playing for second" deals that happen so often on clash was amazing. I feel like Crim underplays how these deals end up alienating the target and leaves the fourth player to either make a deal with the target (who might be a little emotional if they've had this happen often) or turn it into flat out archenemy which would probably bait a concession from the target.
@Nick Hannah I know exactly how it feels, the one time it didn't leave me sour was because it happened so often at the time that I leaned into it and built a deck designed for the situation.
I play for second, but not in a way that helps the winning player. More like when I've recognized that there's no way we can take them down, so I'm playing to not be last.
For the “Using removal on the way out” section, I’d say NOT using removal or making blocks to kill the attackers is the rude thing. If nothing else, like Seth said, make it hurt for the attacker!
I'd add the caveat its the player who ruined your chances that should be targetted not necessarily who is attacking for lethal. If you were in the lead and a player devestates your board and nearly kills you, then the next player comes in just looking for say some Toski triggers: I'm going after the player who devestated me, not the one putting in the last couple points of damage opportunistically getting some triggers.
I am surprised that is even a thing. Why wouldn't I go out swinging? Why shouldn't the attacker stand to lose something for pointing lethal damage my way?
I had one player be salty at me because game was dinosaurs, myself, and then an esper deck and a grixis deck. Dinosaur player was all out ahead in bodies. I had a board wipe, but hey, two black players, and one was playing discard, so I discard my board wipe to that. I managed to get a huge token or two to limit what that Dinosaur player could do to me for a spell, eventually he swung all out, and the remaining esper player wanted me to block Zacama and kill it so he could have his revenge when he phased back in or something.. (Teferi's protection fired off) And I'm like no, I'm dying regardless, onus was on you two black players to clean this up. I'm not doing your dirty work for you. XD ( If I had cast the board wipe, the dinosaur player was probably out of the game, and the other two players were both poised to stabilize and take control. The Esper player had Necropotence out for a bit as well. Don't complain about me not using my removal to save you for free. :) )
I recently used removal on the way out to snipe a Platinum Angel. The two players couldn’t touch each other and would have dragged the match on for another hour so I killed it to end the game (I died second in a 4 person game, but the platinum Angel player was already at negative health)
7 months late, but there's a topic in the video that I find most relevant, proxies. As far as I can remember, proxies where for play testing before investing in the card. Then commander came to the scene. Most people in my playgroups got a no spoken “investment proxie policy”. If I invested a lot of money on a premium card, I use a proxie of the same card in other decks if needed. It made sense even when I was not a fan of it but as you point out in your video, as time goes on, it is expected to happen. Commander was and will always be a creative format. What I do not tolerate is the kind of player who proxie the same set of cards in all their decks. He is not play testing, he is not investing, I’m talking about the player who wants to play the same deck every time with a different commander. Moxes, Crypts, lotuses, (any kind of mana intensive card) etc. There is no point on testing those no brainer cards. You’re just being an A-hole who wants to bully the table time and time again. (I’ve seen this on competitive and non competitive tables)
Yeah. Those are just people trying to hustle. They're the people who will call a deck a 7 even if it has the power 9 in it. I proxy up whole decks because I want to do weird themes, play them once or twice, and then take it apart and try something weirder. I've even earned enough trust from my playgroup that I can make functional reprints of cards. They know I don't have any interest in making a Blue Craterhoof and instead I will do something like turn the pegasus cards into griffons so I can play a griffon tribal deck that's not completely unplayable. Or turn Raging Goblin (along with a handful of other goblins) into Barmy Badger and it's a 1/1 red badger with haste in a Badger deck.
I want to mention something about the proxies section. I do not know how prevalent this is, but personally people who have one or two proxies have been okay, but each time I've played people who ran 10 or more also tended to have those proxies be really high powered cards at very casual tables. It always seems like someone running more then a couple proxies are also people really pushing the power of their deck in lower power games rather then just trying out synergy or grabbing a piece they need thats to high budget Edit. To me while proxies are okay, to many seems to be the common sign of someone looking to pub stomp
Every single time in Tomer’s intro I hear him say “Welcome to the Commander Clash Podcast, we’re the commander clash crew.” Then get totally thrown off when the sentence continues and I realize he’s saying “where the…”
For me honestly the thing about proxies is that its sorta like a good headsup for power level, since proxies usually are proxied for a reason and if you want to play cards and you are playing on the goal of getting the best bang for your buck seeing a jeweled lotus proxy might be a bit of a feels bad. Giving a headsup usually can ease the feelsbad from that stuff since you come in knowing.
@@robertmonroe1883 isn't part of a collectable card game to, collect the cards though. I can understand some proxies however too many I find shifts the power level of the whole group.
@@saidinstouch2186 Sure but they are talking about the actual battling part of the game not collecting. Like OP's point they are trying to make is proxies are there for a reason and making it seem like only about power so he brings up a jeweled lotus so you should make a heads up saying hey i have proxies. While Robert is saying that its a power level conversation not a conversation on telling people you have proxies because either way the person is going to get pissed off to see a jeweled lotus real or not real when they did not think the power level was going to be that high. So all in all Robert's point is if you are going to complain don't complain about the proxies as if it would have been any different if the person had the real cards, but complain about the person not divulging the power level of the deck because fast mana, tutors, dual lands amps up the decks power a lot. What the OP fails to realize is that no that should just be a power level discussion in general not a proxy discussion as proxies have nothing to do with this. Now depending on the price of the card someone will proxy if hey already have the card because they want it for many of their decks as they don't want to pay that price over and over
@@saidinstouch2186 It only works when everyone in the pod has the same income/spends the same on the hobby. If I'm spending 50 dollars a month on cards, 1 person spends 100, a third only buys a couple boosters, and the fourth person is buying multiple booster boxs each month, that's going to be a terrible experience very quickly.
"Using removal on the way out:" it might not help you in the current game, but if it helps you in future games, then it does increase your "EV," it's about building a reputation. Being a spiteful player has advantages Similarly, feel free to break deals if you want to build a reputation as the guy who isn't trustworthy
I think breaking deals is an ahole move in random play groups, but if you are playing with a consistent group of people, it’s okay. You breaking the deal affects your future ability to make deals, thus leaving you with long-term consequences.
I like being told if there are proxies, because it changes the expectations of the game. I never see anyone proxy a Prodigal Sorcerer, but I do see proxied Gaea’s Cradle. If someone says they have proxies I change my play style to accommodate a wider variety of cards.
Exactly. Like, I don't typically expect a person to be running $3000 worth of lands in a casual commander game with randoms at the LGS. Proxy players need to give a heads up.
Everyone’s talking about the handicapped sick kid but this is low key the best line in the episode and has actually become a part of my daily vocabulary.
Tomer's take in the proxy discussion would look super bad taken out of context but watching him explain and seeing Seth and Tomer both try to keep it together while he continued was absolutely delightful to watch.
On proxies: I'm personally all for proxies. My one caveat is that those proxies should be high-quality enough to not negatively impair the flow of the game. Even just black and white printed copies. As soon as there are multiple scribbled-on basics it quickly becomes a nightmare to keep track of.
I'm a firm believer in sorcery speed scooping. Scoop on your turn.if you scoop on your opponents there are a number of factors that change. From attacker, targeted removal or even the top of their own deck. I totally understand not wanting to play, or having other priorities, but at the end of the day it's a game, and it's meant to be fun for everyone.
Really nice episode to put things into perspective. For the conceding part, our playgroup has a house according to which you can only scoop at sorcery speed, therefore guaranteeing that no other triggers are interrupted unless weird stuff happens. It’s really the best to avoid petty fights such as “do you let my Toski triggers resolve?“ and stuff
@31:00 that always grind my gears. "NO INFINITES!!!!" Okay buddy, guess what, Thassa's-Consultation isnt an infinite combo. Instead of playing my Grenzo 5x card combo I guess I'm gonna play Rog-Silas Turbo Ad Nauseam deck.
My issue with infinite combos is more that the people running the deck won't kill me when they have what they need on the board. I hate being unable to do anything to stop your plan but then be forced to watch you spend 3+ turns building the combo so my loss is even more humiliating. I'll wait and let a person pull of the combo. But if they decide to keep passing so they can make the final attack even bigger, I just alt tab and let them win due to time out.
Seriously every time I hear Seth say he simply will never pay for Rhystic I hear a voice in my head saying :"OK, well then you can't play in my group because all you do is ruin games in favor of the blue players"
on the announcing proxies, it depends on what it is, if you're at a casual table and drop 5K+ (OG duels and Cradle) in proxies and all i have are some proxies of staples i bought once and don't want to buy multiples of.
I think og duals are the least offensive proxies and I'm confused why they're brought up when people mention proxy power level. Gaea's cradle, mana vault, stuff like that, definitely disclose. Having very very slightly more consistent mana? I don't think anyone will even be able to notice the difference.
@@AMageOldAsDirt Optimized Mana base is a huge deal. You don't notice the difference. But you feel the difference after having played 10+ games. The consistancy is game changing.
@@kyleellis1825 sure, but honestly, what changes the game experience more, someone dropping a tropical island instead of a forest, or a gaea's cradle?
Depends if I'm playing mono green or not. All I think people need to do, is have an optimized mana base and a non optimized manabase. That way they can change it up if the opponent isn't competetive.@@soleo2783
I hope Tomer's point about being too political to the point of the game not being free for all was heard by the group because I very much agree with that feeling in some of the weekly games. It is still a show for the audience and for the fun of the players every week, not just a game of debate and politics.
My group got tougher on proxies when a new player dropped the same high power cards five games in a row with five different decks. One can say that deck building is only up to the players, but I have seen unhealthy arms races develop really quickly when there were no poxy limitations. Further, limitation breeds creativity, and unlimited access to proxies removes that drive, leading to a much less diverse set of decks. Maybe my group is unique, though, in that we don't want to see a Dockside in every red deck and a Tithe in every white deck.
Wholeheartedly agree, proxies are fine but it gets to the point where it's too much. Like why not proxie an entire deck or have multiple black lotus. It's not really about having the money for the card but to be creative otherwise every deck would be the same broken crap
@noname-vd9bq Yeah. If a person has 1 of those cards, they can stick it in as many decks as they want. The issue isn't proxying, it's netdecking with no budget and trying to hustle to group by not clearly expressing the power level of the deck they want to use.
Minor thought about announcing proxies - my playgroup plays mostly budget, and that keeps power level capped to a degree. So rolling in with unannounced proxies in a setting like that would be in poor taste.
In the combo/control discussion, pre-game talk is very important. We just had a game that one person played a Ephara control Approach of the second sun deck, and it wasn't clear in the beginning that no one has interaction against that so it devolved into a weird arch enemy game that we somehow tried to prevent him from getting his combo in convoluted ways
The one situation where scooping with effects wasn't an asshole move: I was at 51 life and had an Aetherflux Reservoir, one of my opponent attacked me with a massive Hoof swing and had lethal and lifelink. I could kill him with the Reservoir but would be left at 1 and died to the next opponent. So I look him dead in the eye and say: "Did you know Reservoir doesn't say Target Opponent?" Then I paid fifty life and targeted MYSELF, killing myself with my own reservoir and denying him the life gain. It wasn't technically scooping, it was an on board effect, but I think it counts.
Ive been doing some research on twitter recently and I think the reason alot of people struggle with "board wipes to no finish" or " stax games lasting 3 hours" is because alot of people are playing EDH for content. I proposed that Content EDH is its own category of play. It has its own mulligan rules to guarantee everyone has playable hands...and not everyone is available to sit and watch an uninteractive game for 3 hours and the content stagnates. The same can also be true for infinite loops that aburptly end the game. Majority of players dont divulge their deck lists or express that a loop exists that can end the game without interaction and from the content perspective it suffers if the game/show ends and its simply " hi i looped. gg."
I am SO glad you brought up scooping to triggers because to me that's the bulk of the scooping = jerk discussion. Even before commander i was playing casual multiplayer, and the amount if people who would scoop to deny a kill with sanguine bond, scoop to a sneak attacked eldrazi so it has to annihilate someone else, cycle decree of annihilation and scoop, etc. was a lot! this definitely comes up, even with friends at "casual" tables (tables with no stakes on the line).
With proxies, I think a good option is just writing "proxies" on the deck box. Everyone was made aware when you pulled it out, and there's no need for repetitive or awkward asking.
The guy proxying up a white/blue griffon deck is probably fine. It's the people who just proxy up the most expensive/powerful cards that need the warning and if they had the money, they'd have the cards for real. So really, it's a power level issue and the person is trying to hustle you by making their deck seem weaker.
I used to feel like Tomer on not wanting to make deals and play the political game. I would never get the plant tokens from Dowsing Daggers because I didn't want to beg for them like everyone else. However, I got over it, and watching Commander Clash is what made me realize that the politics and deal making is half the fun, it's not just about winning the game. Now I'm a smooth talker and try to get everyone to understand that we are all resources to make the game close and even when possible.
I think the topic of "not making the optimal play" is such an interesting one in the context of commander. While it's no one's "responsibility" to clean up the board, I tend to subscribe to the expectation that all parties "play like a champion" and at all times prioritize playing to the board state that exists rather than the one that might exist (within reason of course). A great example to use for this debate is the Time Spiral Remastered episode of Game Knights. In that game, Cassius was so obviously in control of the entire game yet Jimmy and Ashlen did next to nothing to interact with him, even being accused of phoning in the game.
idk, I've had a lot of games where the mana screwed player was ignored for the first 8 turns, then ends up in a winning position after getting a couple lands because they're the only one who hasn't spent any resources and are at the highest life. I think it's wrong to let a mana screwed off scot-free.
Bad proxies are the asshole move. Sometimes it’s hard to track what’s happening on the board, and of your winter orb is a plains with the word winter orb sharpied on it, I hate that. The thing about the proper cards is they have recognizability and more importantly readability. The mtg goldfish proxies are perfectly fine. But there are wrong ways to proxy that make you annoying to play with.
Phil's point on proxies and aesthetics is interesting. In Magic it seems consensus is that optics should take the backseat. In Warhammer on the other hand it is extremely frowned upon if you show up with unpainted or poorly assembled models. There it is viewed as taking away from shared experience.
@@starmanda88 I never actually played a sanctioned Warhammer event but even at casual LGS events you'll get complaints if you bring out your grey horde.
@@nathanmcduck2999 my husband is big into warhammer and I can see why that would be. He’s put 100s of hours of work into his armies so I can see why that would rub people the wrong way. Plus it’s hard to see what is happening and who has what weapon or whatever.
We were at a friends house and he scooped early in the game, and it was awkward because we were there to play with our friends, and wanted to play it out, but it's their house and they were done. They said we could keep playing but we were there to play together. No one had the guaranteed win, there was a minor advantage but there would have been a least a bunch more draws. EDIT: On Killing people early- if your only meeting once a week to play, it feels shitty to target one player down.
I think I understand what Crim is feeling here. In the past few years we've seen an increase in the amount of people who frame their desires about what you should play in terms like "your playstyle is inherently oppressive/toxic/against the spirit of the format/etc", rather than "sorry could you do me a favour and play something else?". It's gotten way out of hand, to the point where some people seem to no longer be talking about a game where you are trying to defeat your opponents, and instead some kind of... collaborative improv self-esteem building exercise. I saw a thread today on /r/edh where someone was asking if it was ok to play Imprisoned in the Moon and similar cards, or if "turning off someone's commander" was considered bad sportsmanship. So yeah, I think it's way out of hand, and we've already fostered an entitled culture in the game wherein everyone wants perfectly compliant opponents without their own agency. I'm glad my playgroup is made up of adults who realize that everything I try to do to stop them, only makes victory sweeter when they overcome it.
In our playgroup we have a rule that you can’t concede at instant speed(unless you have Vedalken Orrery etc. for memes). Because we had people scooping mid-combat and that really feels like a poor sport move, when you may have attacked differently or not at all.
When people do that I just treat it like the combat finished as normal, since scooping at instant speed isn’t a legal action anyway. What can they do about it? They’ve left the game lol.
During a particularly long game where one of my opponents was in a particularly bad situation and he had only three lands on turn 30 or so I did two things first I gave him any land he might want from his deck. There is a search that costs the player who is hit with it nothing but the caster pays six mana and ten life. I technically didn't give him any land but any card and I wasn't in that good shape either but it was nice to see him so happy. He fired off eight spells on his next turn and wiped out everyone but me then conceded to me. I asked him why and he said that it was a thanks because he had the most fun in that game that he had had for years. He was in a very bad way mentally but I was more happy to make him feel good than anything else. I felt that he was not having a good time but I latter learned that he had been planning to end his life because he lost his entire family in a week and I made him feel wanted. I haven't had any contact with him since but I hope that he is still doing well and that he still feels needed or wanted because I think he was worth having around.
ill gladly let someone play a card facedown as a land if they are mana screwed, i want to play vs you not watch you struggle to get a land for 5 turns lol. very cool though man i wish people had this mentality more than just ''oh this is how to win''
I had someone in my old LGS that saw a Zur the Enchanter first turn dark ritual into a Sign in Blood + Sol Ring and conceaded immediately because he was a "Dirty combo player". He proceeded to make a very loud fuss about it to the LGS owner.
I once played a turn 1 sol ring, t2 dwarven blastminer. My opponent t2 played a bounce land. Was I really the a-hole for using my blastminer's ability?
I'm with tomer and the BM deals. I have a regular play group and sometimes people make a "you and me, until we are last 2?" That makes it super frustrating to play against a 2 headed giant team.
that's why I get frustrated with 'group hug' decks, too. most of the time they grab on to one other player and do the same thing, then use the excuse, 'but i'm just a group hug deck'
The proxy discussion for me goes like this: I am fine with them, as long as they are clear to every player from across the table. I do not care if you have a proxy in your deck, I care that your proxy, when on the table or stack, can be read and can be noted. If it can't be read, or is not clear what it is, do not play it.
I’ve only ever scooped twice in my playgroup and i spent like 10 minutes after realizing I have been blown out and two people have much larger boardstates with no way clear way of ending it. There’s usually enough people for me to go start another game on commander night.
Commander has politics and kingmaking is a part of the game. If you can concede to blow out the opponent that’s going to pop off, it actually is a viable play.
@@deifiedtitan If you were actually playing on teams with separate life maybe but in a free for all no it is not viable as it does not get you closer to winning in fact it makes the table more likely to target you and kill you faster the more you play games with them
Conceding in paper magic unless it ends the game is wrong because no matter what it effects the outcome of a game. In every fashion it effects the game
As someone who plays exclusively low power jank commander, it's not the speed or the strength of an infinite combo that gets to me. It's mostly because i play commander for the variance. And alot of the time combo decks try to get into their peices, and try and appraoch a certain state. This isn't an issue for all of them, but those games turn into trying to target them until they lose first with the fear that the game would end. I mostly experienced this at my LGS, where they would mention a not strong combo deck, then around turn 4-5 the table would quickly realize that all attention would shift to them. And i prefer my games where we get long drawn out small interactions, and games that mostly end with combat, even if we end up dying to aggro. Combo decks just tend to have less decisions/politics made around the table, since they tend to pillow fort their peices. But that is mostly an issue with strangers. Also as dying to a combo, feels off since with lower power we tend to think how combat will go a few turns from now, or what deals we can make as its happening. And when someone ends up having all the peices, the plans shut off, especially because combo players would wait when people are tapped out/ used most interaction dealing with the combat. As well as combo decks would be very passive early on typically, and we would ignore attacking them thinking they were behind, until something really huge comes out. High synergy and huge pay off is fine, i think the consensus from my playgroup is that its a mismatch with our combat focused meta. Regardless great video!
The proxy question is tough because you have to be able to distinguish two very similar but distinct emotions. On one hand, if you own a Black Lotus, what makes it so cool is the rarity and value, right? In a way, its coolness is defined by the fact that very few people actually have one, and you do. At the same time, you don't necesarily want to tell people they can't play a card just because they don't own it, especially when it's very hard to own one because very few exist, and you want people to be able to play and enjoy the game. The distinction you have to make is that it's not specifically the fact that other people DON'T own one, but more specifically the pride you get from being one of the people who DOES own a real one. That's why it can feel bad like it sort of cheapens the value of your card if anyone can just proxy a fake one to "have" one too. This is why I think WotC should just print gold border versions of Reserved List cards. They wouldn't be officially tournament legal, but like silver border cards, they'd be legal in any casual setting where people agree to allow them.
Other people playing proxies doesn't cheapen your experience in any way. Your argument is the same elitist bullshit just wrapped up in a nicer wrapper. You still own your cool card don't you? They still don't have one do they? Yours is worth a shit ton of money and theirs is literally worthless, yes? So the only affect of them 'having one' is that they aren't paying to win and you are and you're butthurt about it. Collectability and value are unaffected by proxies so gameplay is the only thing left. Gold border cards would literally just be proxies, absolutely no difference whatsoever. Kind of weird to be okay with that and not other proxies.
Tomer might be referencing the Game knight episode where the fans were invited, and milly was playing Yuriko, Jimmie Wong was playing blue and made a deal w Milly where he will do x if she does t counter his next spell- 30 minutes later, he casts Omniscience...
I think there's a legitimate argument against proxies in certain situations. If I'm playing a deck that isn't proxied, then it is almost certainly going to be less optimized than a deck that is running proxies. I don't have og duals, so I'm not using them. I'm using much cheaper lands that are strictly worse. When people proxy, they often go for the best available and it drives up power level
I have never heard anyone say wraths should only be used as wincons, and as a superfriends player, that’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
Funny that the thumbnail shows pet cards behind each person showing how they may be the a-hole, except for Tomer.. who has one of his most hated cards behind him xD
Yeah this is something I need to work on. The only deck arch type I enjoy is blue mono. No one else has fun though. It would be nice to see more interactive counter cards, like maybe forcing a creature to have 2 turns of summoning sickness. Or a counter cards that delays the casting to the players next turn throwing off their tempo... Idk guess I can always break out my old white red land destruction deck
Cards like Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, Suspend, and Swan Song are already kind of that. They feel like more fair counterspells to most people because at least your oppening has options or gets something out of it.
On the "conceding to deny a trigger": If someone does it in a game I'm in and I'm one of the remaining players, I say 'Just take the triggers/life/carddraw anyway.' The conceding person may not agree, but they are not part of the game anymore. What their opinion is, in my perspective, isn't relevant anymore.
Zedruu was my first commander, and I've had so many occasions where opponents decided to scoop to remove my permanents I'd donated to spite me. When I later built Scarab God it became one of my favorite things when opponents would say that they'd scoop and try to insist that my token copies are then removed, only for me to point out that their permanent was exiled and my token copy isn't reliant on their continued play.
If they scoop, then the permanents you donated with Zedruu would just return to your side of the battlefield-they wouldn't be removed. So in that case I think your opponents were either deliberately messing with you or just did not know the rules. From Gatherer: "If an opponent leaves the game, all permanents you gave to them courtesy of Zedruu will return to your control."
@@leedoswhale3946 Yes, but some donation effects work differently and I run many in my deck. Also, sometimes a permanent returning can be bad such as a stocked up Delaying Shield. Spite scooping to return it to me would kill me often times
On early kills - people need to play the game, sometimes someone dies early. Honestly, if you are in a situation where you're left to die early, even if it's not your fault, it's an important skill to be able to politic your way out of that early death. It's an integral part of Commander as a format. I played a game last night where I was stuck on 2 lands until turn 6, and with simple talk, small gestures against the arch enemy, and a bit of luck, I was able to turn that around into a win like six turns later.
In my playgroup we found that conceding only in sorcery speed solves most problems. Of course there are cases in which it isn't that easy, but we found that is a better solution than being able to concede whenever.
We recently had a buddy on 1 land at turn six and we had him shuffle his hand yard into the library and had him draw 12 card and said if you got 4 lands just play’m and it worked really well usually people are set up by turn 5 or 6 so it was rough to be screwed that long and it made the game better in my opinion instead of him just scooping
On deals: Keep your deals. Your word and honor are worth more than a win. I will lose a game before I break a deal. If someone breaks a deal they won't find themselves getting more deals and you win more Commander games by working with people, than fighting everyone.
Conceding prematurely is a massive A-Hole play: If a player has Villanous Wealth'ed you X=40 and you concede in response, you've just ruined the game for that player.
That said- I have 4 Muldrotha EDH decks of varying power levels and win cons, but if I am playing any of them and somebody has a Tergrid in their command zone, I concede immediately. Thats no different than sitting down to eminence stax for any deck built around sacrificing permanents and wheeling.
I was playing my Killian voltron deck against 3 of my roommates and one of them was running Scarab God. He was milling all of us like a mad man and had answers for the most part. Once I was able to reattach all the auras from my yard on Killian and swing with him for lethal at the SG player he told me to let him know when going to damage, I did, and he conceded instead of dying. If I had connected, the payoffs were gonna win me the game, because I was gonna be able to deal with the other two opponents. He then proceeded to find an article on a random Magic website or reddit to justify his action being “legal”. I wasn’t gonna strap him to the chair or anything but he did what he did to screw me over, ruining the game and the night imo. Always approached the table as a more reserved person every time he was there with a deck.
On disclosing proxies, I like that people do disclose it. I don't have issues with proxies, but I don't use them as default when going to my LGS or an event. If we arw doing proxies, just tell me so I can swap some basics for some of those really weird reserved list lands.
I feel it's more on the proxy players to have an optimized mana base and a budget mana base for that very reason. It's free (basically) to proxy. don't devalue the experience for everyone else just because you couldn't print and extra 20 lands that aren't quite as over powered.
On conceding: I play in paper but if someone has to leave or just isn't having fun and scoops I like to keep track of their life total and anything else relevant. So if the table needs their land for exotic orchard, or someone is going to gain benefit off their creatures being in play/dying you can track it. Your undaunted spells still cost less, you can swing Toski at them for a card, all the things you could do if they were sitting there not having fun.
Tomer is 100% correct on combos/infinites. This is something we need to expand more on in Rule 0 conversations. A two card combo is a lot different than a 4 card combo, and by restricting them both equally means aggro becomes the strongest edh meta. Combos, like aggro, help games end! Playing 3 games over 3 hours is so much better than 1 game over 3 hours.
My issue is more when the combo player just won't end it. Do you really need to make 5'000+ tokens or could you just make 20 and sacrifice them for the 20 damage.
@@kyleellis1825 that's just a bad player, not an indication of combo being bad. Same could be said for a bad player playing control, stax, durdling, or even aggro.
In regards to proxies, if someone has land proxies, mainly the alpha duels, they should announce it and let people without proxies errata a taped land in their deck into a duel. Land bases are a huge part of deck speed and consistency, so if someone is optimized via proxies, the people they play against should be as well.
I think people should be disclosing proxies - a lot of people don't know that your LGS commander night is an official WOTC event and you aren't allowed to play proxies there so it can avoid a lot of confusion and potentially negative actions. Aside from that there's I think a general understanding that a lot of casual games are built out of "cards I own" pools and not that highly optimized (aside from CEDH obviously) so if you're playing suboptimal cards because you don't own best in slot options it can feel really bad to play against proxied staples even within the same power level.
I agree. I don't think I've ever objected to somebody running playtest cards outside of official events. But since they aren't actual cards, giving the group a heads up is the least you can do.
The desire to proxy mainly stems from peoples' sense of narcissism. Everyone feels like theyre entitled to the best stuff without going through the steps of getting it. If we're going to allow proxies just cause "every card is just paper, than theres no reason to really have any MtG card. We might as well be making up our own cards, drawing with crayons on construction paper.
@@ammonaustin9081 It's a tough situation. If everybody just printed up their own cards, then WotC isn't selling and the game goes away. But "going through the steps of getting it" is really just money. It's not some journey where you earn the right to play those better cards, it's a wallet fight.
@@ammonaustin9081 that's nowhere near accurate. Some people just don't have the means to buy expensive game pieces, don't prioritize spending excessive amounts on magic, don't want to support Hasbro's recent business practices, etc... Also feeling entitled and being narcissistic aren't the same thing and the steps of getting a magic card are usually 1 - pay money, 2 - wait for the mail. Not to mention that making cards is a fun activity and a way to practice game design skills. You're being a gatekeeper and making assumptions about people that don't think the same way you do, bad look.
@@jaywinner328 You can say that with almost every game or form of entertainment. Nothing retains value by being more inclusive. Ive worked OT at my job plenty of times to earn the cards I wanted. i didnt pout. Because at the end of the day, these cards have value even after you buy them, hence why MtG has a finance community. And I learned how to use my collection & MtG finance to get the cards I wanted even more without spending real money. So no, I will say the biggest obstacle is laziness, not money.
I am a firm believer that in EDH, scooping should be at sorcery speed. Mitigates a lot of those blowouts like swinging in for lethal with a lifelinker and what not.
On one hand, I do agree because of fairness. But on a flavour point of view... We are Planeswalkers. Why would we ever stick around and let an opponent kill us and not vanish the second it's clear we can't win the fight.
Conceding just feels as much as part of the game as playing. I will say I prefer people to concede at sorcery speed because of how it can effect the math but it's still up to them. I'm not about to expect someone to continue playing if they are not having fun, it is just a game.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Tomer enters the pediatric ward, with a fully optimized CEDH deck with alternate art, and 12 alpha basics. A child, age 6, approaches him. "Please sir, take this Mulldrifter I made, *cough cough*". Tomer looks upon the scribbled flying fish presented before him. "Sorry sick kid, but I can draw better than this"
What fish? All I see is an Elemental.
What did I just read. Lol
1:20:56 Yes Tomer, you *are* the a-hole
@@beurtalvarez note he said alpha basics the other 12 are basics from different sets, Tomer is the type of person that would be the one to find a cEDH deck that is only good and fully optimized if all of the lands in it are basic
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena or is playing godo
This is the best episode. I’m gonna be using “sorry sick kid, but I can draw better than this” in my day to day now
He's not going to live that down and it is so funny.
He broke Seth lol
Can you link the timestamp so I can keep going back and rewatching it?
@@almogdov Seth held it together better than Crim though; Crim was completely down and out the second the "sorry sick kid" line got dropped.
@@fosterdawson7339 1:20:44
Punching someone for a counterspell? No way
In my playgroup we limit ourselves to curses, death threats and overall scream like a pack of rabid monkeys like true gentlemen
seems entirely reasonable
Love that Seth and Crim are just cracking up but Phil is fully trying to seriously engage with Tomer om the sick kid craterhoof art.
30:28 Tomer on infinites
34:38 Crim on board wipes
56:44 Seth on “…yeah but most people are stupid Tomer…”
1:01:20 Phil on scooping
1:21:14 Tomer (again) on hospitalized children
"I'm sorry sick kid but I can draw better than that" is going to be my new tattoo
Funniest early concede memory was a friend keeping a greedy hand reliant on him going Land>Lotus petal>Sylvan Library as player 1 and just digging for more mana. Then saying "I'm not gonna be mad if you guys blow it up, but I'm conceding if you do cause my hand is dead without it" the rest of the table shared a look of "We have to blow it up" and someone did a turn 1 or 2 natures claim, and they stood up, packed their cards, left while repeating multiple times they weren't salty and just walked away. "I'm not mad" still a running joke to us years later
I mean I don’t scoop ever but damn that would be tilting as hell
@@jamesgreenwood1703 Maybe next time he won't tell the whole table that destroying his thing will make him concede.
Scoop there seems reasonable, tbh
i took a 2 land hand with urza's saga. turn 3 someone oppo agented me and took my sol ring safter saccing saga. i had 1 land and my plan went to shit so i i just scooped cause i was now 3-5 turns behind. obviously i was pretty salty but i also thought it was pretty funny and i said would've done the same thing but i wouldn't be able to do shit for several turns so it was now just a waste of time.
That play scenario could lead to a great memory...just don't broadcast it. Several yrs ago I accepted a hand w/ zero land & a Land Tax in it. My first draw was a Plains & I won the game, only letting the table know afterwards how tenuous my opening hand was.
"Hey cancer kid, learn to freaking draw!"
Tomer is a savage!
1:21:14
"I'm sorry, sick kid, but I can draw better than that" - Tomer Abramovici, 2022
This. Idk if they can top that this season
@@autoenthused this season? Try ever.
On the topic of breaking deals, I personally just think people should rarely ever make deals beyond one or two actions. I'll accept stuff like "If I let you draw/tutor here then you use any removal you get on X target", but any deal that goes longer than a turn cycle I think is far too committal, if the stakes change you can be forced to either make a bad play or break a deal.
Oh and the deals that work better are deals with cards people know about. If you have the answer on board then everyone is way more likely to make the deal than if it's not. Even if the card in hand is common knowledge from a tutor effect or something like that.
I really like to play mid-low power Zur because you get to search up cards like Seal of cleansing or Seal of Doom. You have an answer on board people can see, and you can directly make deals. (The issue is people then see CEDH Zur so I get hard targeted sometimes for playing him)
Tomer calling out the "Playing for second" deals that happen so often on clash was amazing. I feel like Crim underplays how these deals end up alienating the target and leaves the fourth player to either make a deal with the target (who might be a little emotional if they've had this happen often) or turn it into flat out archenemy which would probably bait a concession from the target.
@Nick Hannah I know exactly how it feels, the one time it didn't leave me sour was because it happened so often at the time that I leaned into it and built a deck designed for the situation.
@Nick Hannah it’s funny sometimes but only if everyone’s in on it. It can really suck if not everyone’s ok with it
I play for second, but not in a way that helps the winning player. More like when I've recognized that there's no way we can take them down, so I'm playing to not be last.
For the “Using removal on the way out” section, I’d say NOT using removal or making blocks to kill the attackers is the rude thing. If nothing else, like Seth said, make it hurt for the attacker!
I'd add the caveat its the player who ruined your chances that should be targetted not necessarily who is attacking for lethal.
If you were in the lead and a player devestates your board and nearly kills you, then the next player comes in just looking for say some Toski triggers: I'm going after the player who devestated me, not the one putting in the last couple points of damage opportunistically getting some triggers.
I am surprised that is even a thing. Why wouldn't I go out swinging? Why shouldn't the attacker stand to lose something for pointing lethal damage my way?
I had one player be salty at me because game was dinosaurs, myself, and then an esper deck and a grixis deck. Dinosaur player was all out ahead in bodies. I had a board wipe, but hey, two black players, and one was playing discard, so I discard my board wipe to that. I managed to get a huge token or two to limit what that Dinosaur player could do to me for a spell, eventually he swung all out, and the remaining esper player wanted me to block Zacama and kill it so he could have his revenge when he phased back in or something.. (Teferi's protection fired off) And I'm like no, I'm dying regardless, onus was on you two black players to clean this up. I'm not doing your dirty work for you. XD
( If I had cast the board wipe, the dinosaur player was probably out of the game, and the other two players were both poised to stabilize and take control. The Esper player had Necropotence out for a bit as well. Don't complain about me not using my removal to save you for free. :) )
I recently used removal on the way out to snipe a Platinum Angel. The two players couldn’t touch each other and would have dragged the match on for another hour so I killed it to end the game (I died second in a 4 person game, but the platinum Angel player was already at negative health)
It will also hurt your chances of winning future games if people know they can kill you for no cost
Never have I wanted to meet Tomer at an event more - I need him to sign my secret lair craterhoof
😂
🤣
7 months late, but there's a topic in the video that I find most relevant, proxies. As far as I can remember, proxies where for play testing before investing in the card. Then commander came to the scene. Most people in my playgroups got a no spoken “investment proxie policy”. If I invested a lot of money on a premium card, I use a proxie of the same card in other decks if needed. It made sense even when I was not a fan of it but as you point out in your video, as time goes on, it is expected to happen. Commander was and will always be a creative format. What I do not tolerate is the kind of player who proxie the same set of cards in all their decks. He is not play testing, he is not investing, I’m talking about the player who wants to play the same deck every time with a different commander. Moxes, Crypts, lotuses, (any kind of mana intensive card) etc. There is no point on testing those no brainer cards. You’re just being an A-hole who wants to bully the table time and time again. (I’ve seen this on competitive and non competitive tables)
Yeah. Those are just people trying to hustle. They're the people who will call a deck a 7 even if it has the power 9 in it.
I proxy up whole decks because I want to do weird themes, play them once or twice, and then take it apart and try something weirder. I've even earned enough trust from my playgroup that I can make functional reprints of cards.
They know I don't have any interest in making a Blue Craterhoof and instead I will do something like turn the pegasus cards into griffons so I can play a griffon tribal deck that's not completely unplayable. Or turn Raging Goblin (along with a handful of other goblins) into Barmy Badger and it's a 1/1 red badger with haste in a Badger deck.
I want to mention something about the proxies section. I do not know how prevalent this is, but personally people who have one or two proxies have been okay, but each time I've played people who ran 10 or more also tended to have those proxies be really high powered cards at very casual tables. It always seems like someone running more then a couple proxies are also people really pushing the power of their deck in lower power games rather then just trying out synergy or grabbing a piece they need thats to high budget
Edit. To me while proxies are okay, to many seems to be the common sign of someone looking to pub stomp
1:09:00 Tomer realizes their motto was never "Clash on!" but "We're friends, right?"
"I'm sorry sick kid, but I can draw better than this" is officially the funniest thing I've heard from this group.
Every single time in Tomer’s intro I hear him say “Welcome to the Commander Clash Podcast, we’re the commander clash crew.” Then get totally thrown off when the sentence continues and I realize he’s saying “where the…”
I thought I was the only one who heard this every week
Mind blown. Never noticed!
Same
🤯 All this time I thought he was missing a few words and it really bugged me lmao
For me honestly the thing about proxies is that its sorta like a good headsup for power level, since proxies usually are proxied for a reason and if you want to play cards and you are playing on the goal of getting the best bang for your buck seeing a jeweled lotus proxy might be a bit of a feels bad.
Giving a headsup usually can ease the feelsbad from that stuff since you come in knowing.
@@robertmonroe1883 isn't part of a collectable card game to, collect the cards though. I can understand some proxies however too many I find shifts the power level of the whole group.
@@saidinstouch2186 Sure but they are talking about the actual battling part of the game not collecting. Like OP's point they are trying to make is proxies are there for a reason and making it seem like only about power so he brings up a jeweled lotus so you should make a heads up saying hey i have proxies. While Robert is saying that its a power level conversation not a conversation on telling people you have proxies because either way the person is going to get pissed off to see a jeweled lotus real or not real when they did not think the power level was going to be that high. So all in all Robert's point is if you are going to complain don't complain about the proxies as if it would have been any different if the person had the real cards, but complain about the person not divulging the power level of the deck because fast mana, tutors, dual lands amps up the decks power a lot.
What the OP fails to realize is that no that should just be a power level discussion in general not a proxy discussion as proxies have nothing to do with this. Now depending on the price of the card someone will proxy if hey already have the card because they want it for many of their decks as they don't want to pay that price over and over
@@saidinstouch2186 It only works when everyone in the pod has the same income/spends the same on the hobby.
If I'm spending 50 dollars a month on cards, 1 person spends 100, a third only buys a couple boosters, and the fourth person is buying multiple booster boxs each month, that's going to be a terrible experience very quickly.
"Using removal on the way out:" it might not help you in the current game, but if it helps you in future games, then it does increase your "EV," it's about building a reputation. Being a spiteful player has advantages
Similarly, feel free to break deals if you want to build a reputation as the guy who isn't trustworthy
I think breaking deals is an ahole move in random play groups, but if you are playing with a consistent group of people, it’s okay. You breaking the deal affects your future ability to make deals, thus leaving you with long-term consequences.
I learnt this while playing lantern control - lock pieces are win conditions, and imo it's absolutely fine to scoop to a win condition.
I've scooped to my buddies Urza Stax deck and he was totally cool with it
I love how the entire crew is entirely on board with "parting gifts".
I like being told if there are proxies, because it changes the expectations of the game. I never see anyone proxy a Prodigal Sorcerer, but I do see proxied Gaea’s Cradle. If someone says they have proxies I change my play style to accommodate a wider variety of cards.
Exactly. Like, I don't typically expect a person to be running $3000 worth of lands in a casual commander game with randoms at the LGS. Proxy players need to give a heads up.
“That’s a ‘Weenie-Hut-Jr’ move”
-Crim, 2022
Everyone’s talking about the handicapped sick kid but this is low key the best line in the episode and has actually become a part of my daily vocabulary.
Tomer's take in the proxy discussion would look super bad taken out of context but watching him explain and seeing Seth and Tomer both try to keep it together while he continued was absolutely delightful to watch.
“Most people are stupid” buy our playmats please!! Lol I laughed too hard 😂
On proxies: I'm personally all for proxies. My one caveat is that those proxies should be high-quality enough to not negatively impair the flow of the game. Even just black and white printed copies. As soon as there are multiple scribbled-on basics it quickly becomes a nightmare to keep track of.
I'm a firm believer in sorcery speed scooping. Scoop on your turn.if you scoop on your opponents there are a number of factors that change. From attacker, targeted removal or even the top of their own deck. I totally understand not wanting to play, or having other priorities, but at the end of the day it's a game, and it's meant to be fun for everyone.
Yeah, sorcery speed scooping seems to be the way to go these days.
Really nice episode to put things into perspective. For the conceding part, our playgroup has a house according to which you can only scoop at sorcery speed, therefore guaranteeing that no other triggers are interrupted unless weird stuff happens. It’s really the best to avoid petty fights such as “do you let my Toski triggers resolve?“ and stuff
EOT could work as well IMO
I think a revisit of this topic with very specific situations, rather than categories would lead to better discussions.
@31:00 that always grind my gears. "NO INFINITES!!!!" Okay buddy, guess what, Thassa's-Consultation isnt an infinite combo. Instead of playing my Grenzo 5x card combo I guess I'm gonna play Rog-Silas Turbo Ad Nauseam deck.
My issue with infinite combos is more that the people running the deck won't kill me when they have what they need on the board. I hate being unable to do anything to stop your plan but then be forced to watch you spend 3+ turns building the combo so my loss is even more humiliating.
I'll wait and let a person pull of the combo. But if they decide to keep passing so they can make the final attack even bigger, I just alt tab and let them win due to time out.
Seriously every time I hear Seth say he simply will never pay for Rhystic I hear a voice in my head saying :"OK, well then you can't play in my group because all you do is ruin games in favor of the blue players"
on the announcing proxies, it depends on what it is, if you're at a casual table and drop 5K+ (OG duels and Cradle) in proxies and all i have are some proxies of staples i bought once and don't want to buy multiples of.
I think og duals are the least offensive proxies and I'm confused why they're brought up when people mention proxy power level. Gaea's cradle, mana vault, stuff like that, definitely disclose. Having very very slightly more consistent mana? I don't think anyone will even be able to notice the difference.
Yeah - for me using proxies means I have a follow up question about the power level of your deck, but 99% of the time it’s fine.
@@AMageOldAsDirt Optimized Mana base is a huge deal. You don't notice the difference. But you feel the difference after having played 10+ games. The consistancy is game changing.
@@kyleellis1825 sure, but honestly, what changes the game experience more, someone dropping a tropical island instead of a forest, or a gaea's cradle?
Depends if I'm playing mono green or not. All I think people need to do, is have an optimized mana base and a non optimized manabase. That way they can change it up if the opponent isn't competetive.@@soleo2783
Also I’m glad they finally talked about the over politicking in their play group, it does get out of hand!
I hope Tomer's point about being too political to the point of the game not being free for all was heard by the group because I very much agree with that feeling in some of the weekly games. It is still a show for the audience and for the fun of the players every week, not just a game of debate and politics.
My group got tougher on proxies when a new player dropped the same high power cards five games in a row with five different decks. One can say that deck building is only up to the players, but I have seen unhealthy arms races develop really quickly when there were no poxy limitations. Further, limitation breeds creativity, and unlimited access to proxies removes that drive, leading to a much less diverse set of decks. Maybe my group is unique, though, in that we don't want to see a Dockside in every red deck and a Tithe in every white deck.
Wholeheartedly agree, proxies are fine but it gets to the point where it's too much. Like why not proxie an entire deck or have multiple black lotus. It's not really about having the money for the card but to be creative otherwise every deck would be the same broken crap
@noname-vd9bq Yeah. If a person has 1 of those cards, they can stick it in as many decks as they want. The issue isn't proxying, it's netdecking with no budget and trying to hustle to group by not clearly expressing the power level of the deck they want to use.
Generally, in our playgroup, we scoop at sorcery speed, split second.
Minor thought about announcing proxies - my playgroup plays mostly budget, and that keeps power level capped to a degree. So rolling in with unannounced proxies in a setting like that would be in poor taste.
In the combo/control discussion, pre-game talk is very important. We just had a game that one person played a Ephara control Approach of the second sun deck, and it wasn't clear in the beginning that no one has interaction against that so it devolved into a weird arch enemy game that we somehow tried to prevent him from getting his combo in convoluted ways
i love playing against infinate combos because i love to see people doing some cool stuff
The one situation where scooping with effects wasn't an asshole move:
I was at 51 life and had an Aetherflux Reservoir, one of my opponent attacked me with a massive Hoof swing and had lethal and lifelink. I could kill him with the Reservoir but would be left at 1 and died to the next opponent.
So I look him dead in the eye and say:
"Did you know Reservoir doesn't say Target Opponent?"
Then I paid fifty life and targeted MYSELF, killing myself with my own reservoir and denying him the life gain.
It wasn't technically scooping, it was an on board effect, but I think it counts.
That’s the most based scoop I have ever seen
@@jamesgreenwood1703 thank you
That's not a scoop though. The problem with scooping is when you use it as an off-board means to affect things on board. All of that was on board.
"Nobody makes me bleed my own blood!"
This is my sort of "scoop"!
Ive been doing some research on twitter recently and I think the reason alot of people struggle with "board wipes to no finish" or " stax games lasting 3 hours" is because alot of people are playing EDH for content.
I proposed that Content EDH is its own category of play. It has its own mulligan rules to guarantee everyone has playable hands...and not everyone is available to sit and watch an uninteractive game for 3 hours and the content stagnates.
The same can also be true for infinite loops that aburptly end the game. Majority of players dont divulge their deck lists or express that a loop exists that can end the game without interaction and from the content perspective it suffers if the game/show ends and its simply " hi i looped. gg."
I am SO glad you brought up scooping to triggers because to me that's the bulk of the scooping = jerk discussion. Even before commander i was playing casual multiplayer, and the amount if people who would scoop to deny a kill with sanguine bond, scoop to a sneak attacked eldrazi so it has to annihilate someone else, cycle decree of annihilation and scoop, etc. was a lot! this definitely comes up, even with friends at "casual" tables (tables with no stakes on the line).
With proxies, I think a good option is just writing "proxies" on the deck box. Everyone was made aware when you pulled it out, and there's no need for repetitive or awkward asking.
The guy proxying up a white/blue griffon deck is probably fine. It's the people who just proxy up the most expensive/powerful cards that need the warning and if they had the money, they'd have the cards for real. So really, it's a power level issue and the person is trying to hustle you by making their deck seem weaker.
Least favorite scoops is when someone does it during combat or just when it’s not their turn in general.
I thought reading the comments in advance would prepare me for that tomer moment but omg it was just so much more than I ever expected
My table has been Tomer for years with the “No two card combos, and 3 card you’re on thin ice”
I used to feel like Tomer on not wanting to make deals and play the political game. I would never get the plant tokens from Dowsing Daggers because I didn't want to beg for them like everyone else. However, I got over it, and watching Commander Clash is what made me realize that the politics and deal making is half the fun, it's not just about winning the game. Now I'm a smooth talker and try to get everyone to understand that we are all resources to make the game close and even when possible.
I think the topic of "not making the optimal play" is such an interesting one in the context of commander. While it's no one's "responsibility" to clean up the board, I tend to subscribe to the expectation that all parties "play like a champion" and at all times prioritize playing to the board state that exists rather than the one that might exist (within reason of course).
A great example to use for this debate is the Time Spiral Remastered episode of Game Knights. In that game, Cassius was so obviously in control of the entire game yet Jimmy and Ashlen did next to nothing to interact with him, even being accused of phoning in the game.
Best ever episode thanks to Tomer's sick kids rant. Thank you for being a real G T, represent!
Really interesting discussion: I liked Tomers consideration regarding politics a lot when he mentioned that your group sometime goes to far
idk, I've had a lot of games where the mana screwed player was ignored for the first 8 turns, then ends up in a winning position after getting a couple lands because they're the only one who hasn't spent any resources and are at the highest life. I think it's wrong to let a mana screwed off scot-free.
This has happened more times than I can count. You’re 100% right.
Bad proxies are the asshole move. Sometimes it’s hard to track what’s happening on the board, and of your winter orb is a plains with the word winter orb sharpied on it, I hate that. The thing about the proper cards is they have recognizability and more importantly readability.
The mtg goldfish proxies are perfectly fine. But there are wrong ways to proxy that make you annoying to play with.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's especially frustrating when 90% of the deck is proxied like that.
Jokes on you now plenty of official cards are illegible too now for some reason
Phil's point on proxies and aesthetics is interesting. In Magic it seems consensus is that optics should take the backseat. In Warhammer on the other hand it is extremely frowned upon if you show up with unpainted or poorly assembled models. There it is viewed as taking away from shared experience.
I thought it was a three color minimum at least to play? Or is that just sanctioned events?
@@starmanda88 I never actually played a sanctioned Warhammer event but even at casual LGS events you'll get complaints if you bring out your grey horde.
@@nathanmcduck2999 my husband is big into warhammer and I can see why that would be. He’s put 100s of hours of work into his armies so I can see why that would rub people the wrong way. Plus it’s hard to see what is happening and who has what weapon or whatever.
We were at a friends house and he scooped early in the game, and it was awkward because we were there to play with our friends, and wanted to play it out, but it's their house and they were done. They said we could keep playing but we were there to play together. No one had the guaranteed win, there was a minor advantage but there would have been a least a bunch more draws.
EDIT: On Killing people early- if your only meeting once a week to play, it feels shitty to target one player down.
“I’m sorry sick kid I can draw better That” 😂😂😂😂😂😂bro that was WILD
HE really can't.
I think I understand what Crim is feeling here. In the past few years we've seen an increase in the amount of people who frame their desires about what you should play in terms like "your playstyle is inherently oppressive/toxic/against the spirit of the format/etc", rather than "sorry could you do me a favour and play something else?".
It's gotten way out of hand, to the point where some people seem to no longer be talking about a game where you are trying to defeat your opponents, and instead some kind of... collaborative improv self-esteem building exercise.
I saw a thread today on /r/edh where someone was asking if it was ok to play Imprisoned in the Moon and similar cards, or if "turning off someone's commander" was considered bad sportsmanship.
So yeah, I think it's way out of hand, and we've already fostered an entitled culture in the game wherein everyone wants perfectly compliant opponents without their own agency.
I'm glad my playgroup is made up of adults who realize that everything I try to do to stop them, only makes victory sweeter when they overcome it.
r/edh is filled with toxic players and hyper casual mindsets.
My group has Timmy matches as our warm up and final game of the night. every other game, we can do basically anything.
In our playgroup we have a rule that you can’t concede at instant speed(unless you have Vedalken Orrery etc. for memes). Because we had people scooping mid-combat and that really feels like a poor sport move, when you may have attacked differently or not at all.
When people do that I just treat it like the combat finished as normal, since scooping at instant speed isn’t a legal action anyway. What can they do about it? They’ve left the game lol.
During a particularly long game where one of my opponents was in a particularly bad situation and he had only three lands on turn 30 or so I did two things first I gave him any land he might want from his deck. There is a search that costs the player who is hit with it nothing but the caster pays six mana and ten life. I technically didn't give him any land but any card and I wasn't in that good shape either but it was nice to see him so happy. He fired off eight spells on his next turn and wiped out everyone but me then conceded to me. I asked him why and he said that it was a thanks because he had the most fun in that game that he had had for years. He was in a very bad way mentally but I was more happy to make him feel good than anything else. I felt that he was not having a good time but I latter learned that he had been planning to end his life because he lost his entire family in a week and I made him feel wanted. I haven't had any contact with him since but I hope that he is still doing well and that he still feels needed or wanted because I think he was worth having around.
ill gladly let someone play a card facedown as a land if they are mana screwed, i want to play vs you not watch you struggle to get a land for 5 turns lol. very cool though man i wish people had this mentality more than just ''oh this is how to win''
"I don't care what you're playing just have fun and play what you want"
This is absolutely the best take on commander I've heard.
In a vacuum. yes. In a world where humans exist, no it isn’t. People aren’t that simple
I was having a pretty rough day at work… this fixed me… I have a bad sense of humor so this just mad my day
I had someone in my old LGS that saw a Zur the Enchanter first turn dark ritual into a Sign in Blood + Sol Ring and conceaded immediately because he was a "Dirty combo player". He proceeded to make a very loud fuss about it to the LGS owner.
Ewww what a big baby.
That's not even a cheap opening play! lmao
I once played a turn 1 sol ring, t2 dwarven blastminer. My opponent t2 played a bounce land.
Was I really the a-hole for using my blastminer's ability?
No, bouncelands are bad and should be punished lol
I'm with tomer and the BM deals. I have a regular play group and sometimes people make a "you and me, until we are last 2?" That makes it super frustrating to play against a 2 headed giant team.
that's why I get frustrated with 'group hug' decks, too. most of the time they grab on to one other player and do the same thing, then use the excuse, 'but i'm just a group hug deck'
The proxy discussion for me goes like this: I am fine with them, as long as they are clear to every player from across the table. I do not care if you have a proxy in your deck, I care that your proxy, when on the table or stack, can be read and can be noted. If it can't be read, or is not clear what it is, do not play it.
I’ve only ever scooped twice in my playgroup and i spent like 10 minutes after realizing I have been blown out and two people have much larger boardstates with no way clear way of ending it. There’s usually enough people for me to go start another game on commander night.
Conceding when it will impact the board or counter an effect on the stack makes you a colossal jerk.
Agreed, I think this should be the benchmark for it. If it has no tangible impact on the game it's fine.
Commander has politics and kingmaking is a part of the game. If you can concede to blow out the opponent that’s going to pop off, it actually is a viable play.
@@deifiedtitan that's not a "play" lmao
@@deifiedtitan If you were actually playing on teams with separate life maybe but in a free for all no it is not viable as it does not get you closer to winning in fact it makes the table more likely to target you and kill you faster the more you play games with them
Crim, we approve of big, smooth brains in this house
Tomer can't get cancelled until Richard gets back so we can still have a full pod.
Conceding in paper magic unless it ends the game is wrong because no matter what it effects the outcome of a game. In every fashion it effects the game
As someone who plays exclusively low power jank commander, it's not the speed or the strength of an infinite combo that gets to me. It's mostly because i play commander for the variance. And alot of the time combo decks try to get into their peices, and try and appraoch a certain state. This isn't an issue for all of them, but those games turn into trying to target them until they lose first with the fear that the game would end. I mostly experienced this at my LGS, where they would mention a not strong combo deck, then around turn 4-5 the table would quickly realize that all attention would shift to them.
And i prefer my games where we get long drawn out small interactions, and games that mostly end with combat, even if we end up dying to aggro.
Combo decks just tend to have less decisions/politics made around the table, since they tend to pillow fort their peices. But that is mostly an issue with strangers.
Also as dying to a combo, feels off since with lower power we tend to think how combat will go a few turns from now, or what deals we can make as its happening.
And when someone ends up having all the peices, the plans shut off, especially because combo players would wait when people are tapped out/ used most interaction dealing with the combat.
As well as combo decks would be very passive early on typically, and we would ignore attacking them thinking they were behind, until something really huge comes out.
High synergy and huge pay off is fine, i think the consensus from my playgroup is that its a mismatch with our combat focused meta.
Regardless great video!
The proxy question is tough because you have to be able to distinguish two very similar but distinct emotions.
On one hand, if you own a Black Lotus, what makes it so cool is the rarity and value, right? In a way, its coolness is defined by the fact that very few people actually have one, and you do.
At the same time, you don't necesarily want to tell people they can't play a card just because they don't own it, especially when it's very hard to own one because very few exist, and you want people to be able to play and enjoy the game.
The distinction you have to make is that it's not specifically the fact that other people DON'T own one, but more specifically the pride you get from being one of the people who DOES own a real one. That's why it can feel bad like it sort of cheapens the value of your card if anyone can just proxy a fake one to "have" one too.
This is why I think WotC should just print gold border versions of Reserved List cards. They wouldn't be officially tournament legal, but like silver border cards, they'd be legal in any casual setting where people agree to allow them.
Other people playing proxies doesn't cheapen your experience in any way. Your argument is the same elitist bullshit just wrapped up in a nicer wrapper. You still own your cool card don't you? They still don't have one do they? Yours is worth a shit ton of money and theirs is literally worthless, yes? So the only affect of them 'having one' is that they aren't paying to win and you are and you're butthurt about it. Collectability and value are unaffected by proxies so gameplay is the only thing left. Gold border cards would literally just be proxies, absolutely no difference whatsoever. Kind of weird to be okay with that and not other proxies.
1:05:30
It's not worth the win, beautifully said my man 👍🍻
Tomer might be referencing the Game knight episode where the fans were invited, and milly was playing Yuriko, Jimmie Wong was playing blue and made a deal w Milly where he will do x if she does t counter his next spell- 30 minutes later, he casts Omniscience...
I think there's a legitimate argument against proxies in certain situations. If I'm playing a deck that isn't proxied, then it is almost certainly going to be less optimized than a deck that is running proxies. I don't have og duals, so I'm not using them. I'm using much cheaper lands that are strictly worse. When people proxy, they often go for the best available and it drives up power level
I have never heard anyone say wraths should only be used as wincons, and as a superfriends player, that’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
Conceding at sorcery speed feels a lot more fair and let your opponents get their triggers
Laughs in extra turns deck
Funny that the thumbnail shows pet cards behind each person showing how they may be the a-hole, except for Tomer.. who has one of his most hated cards behind him xD
Yeah this is something I need to work on. The only deck arch type I enjoy is blue mono. No one else has fun though. It would be nice to see more interactive counter cards, like maybe forcing a creature to have 2 turns of summoning sickness. Or a counter cards that delays the casting to the players next turn throwing off their tempo... Idk guess I can always break out my old white red land destruction deck
Cards like Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, Suspend, and Swan Song are already kind of that. They feel like more fair counterspells to most people because at least your oppening has options or gets something out of it.
On the "conceding to deny a trigger":
If someone does it in a game I'm in and I'm one of the remaining players, I say 'Just take the triggers/life/carddraw anyway.'
The conceding person may not agree, but they are not part of the game anymore. What their opinion is, in my perspective, isn't relevant anymore.
Man, Tomer's art critique was the funniest thing I've heard in a while. I was absolutely not prepared
Zedruu was my first commander, and I've had so many occasions where opponents decided to scoop to remove my permanents I'd donated to spite me. When I later built Scarab God it became one of my favorite things when opponents would say that they'd scoop and try to insist that my token copies are then removed, only for me to point out that their permanent was exiled and my token copy isn't reliant on their continued play.
If they scoop, then the permanents you donated with Zedruu would just return to your side of the battlefield-they wouldn't be removed. So in that case I think your opponents were either deliberately messing with you or just did not know the rules.
From Gatherer: "If an opponent leaves the game, all permanents you gave to them courtesy of Zedruu will return to your control."
@@leedoswhale3946 Yes, but some donation effects work differently and I run many in my deck.
Also, sometimes a permanent returning can be bad such as a stocked up Delaying Shield. Spite scooping to return it to me would kill me often times
On early kills - people need to play the game, sometimes someone dies early. Honestly, if you are in a situation where you're left to die early, even if it's not your fault, it's an important skill to be able to politic your way out of that early death. It's an integral part of Commander as a format. I played a game last night where I was stuck on 2 lands until turn 6, and with simple talk, small gestures against the arch enemy, and a bit of luck, I was able to turn that around into a win like six turns later.
In my playgroup we found that conceding only in sorcery speed solves most problems. Of course there are cases in which it isn't that easy, but we found that is a better solution than being able to concede whenever.
We recently had a buddy on 1 land at turn six and we had him shuffle his hand yard into the library and had him draw 12 card and said if you got 4 lands just play’m and it worked really well usually people are set up by turn 5 or 6 so it was rough to be screwed that long and it made the game better in my opinion instead of him just scooping
I've been trying to save these for when I go back to work but I can't wait
On deals: Keep your deals. Your word and honor are worth more than a win. I will lose a game before I break a deal. If someone breaks a deal they won't find themselves getting more deals and you win more Commander games by working with people, than fighting everyone.
Conceding prematurely is a massive A-Hole play: If a player has Villanous Wealth'ed you X=40 and you concede in response, you've just ruined the game for that player.
That said- I have 4 Muldrotha EDH decks of varying power levels and win cons, but if I am playing any of them and somebody has a Tergrid in their command zone, I concede immediately. Thats no different than sitting down to eminence stax for any deck built around sacrificing permanents and wheeling.
At that point you should just make a second different deck that you can play against terg if you run into it so often.
I love that spell. One of my favorite ways to remove someone from the game. Just VW their entire library and hit someone else with all their stuff.
People literally trying to hold others psychological hostage doing something they don't wanna do just so they themselves can pop off
I was playing my Killian voltron deck against 3 of my roommates and one of them was running Scarab God. He was milling all of us like a mad man and had answers for the most part. Once I was able to reattach all the auras from my yard on Killian and swing with him for lethal at the SG player he told me to let him know when going to damage, I did, and he conceded instead of dying. If I had connected, the payoffs were gonna win me the game, because I was gonna be able to deal with the other two opponents. He then proceeded to find an article on a random Magic website or reddit to justify his action being “legal”. I wasn’t gonna strap him to the chair or anything but he did what he did to screw me over, ruining the game and the night imo. Always approached the table as a more reserved person every time he was there with a deck.
Yeah that’s really bad form. I’d be pissed.
On disclosing proxies, I like that people do disclose it. I don't have issues with proxies, but I don't use them as default when going to my LGS or an event.
If we arw doing proxies, just tell me so I can swap some basics for some of those really weird reserved list lands.
I feel it's more on the proxy players to have an optimized mana base and a budget mana base for that very reason. It's free (basically) to proxy. don't devalue the experience for everyone else just because you couldn't print and extra 20 lands that aren't quite as over powered.
On conceding: I play in paper but if someone has to leave or just isn't having fun and scoops I like to keep track of their life total and anything else relevant. So if the table needs their land for exotic orchard, or someone is going to gain benefit off their creatures being in play/dying you can track it. Your undaunted spells still cost less, you can swing Toski at them for a card, all the things you could do if they were sitting there not having fun.
Tomer is 100% correct on combos/infinites. This is something we need to expand more on in Rule 0 conversations.
A two card combo is a lot different than a 4 card combo, and by restricting them both equally means aggro becomes the strongest edh meta.
Combos, like aggro, help games end! Playing 3 games over 3 hours is so much better than 1 game over 3 hours.
My issue is more when the combo player just won't end it. Do you really need to make 5'000+ tokens or could you just make 20 and sacrifice them for the 20 damage.
@@kyleellis1825 that's just a bad player, not an indication of combo being bad. Same could be said for a bad player playing control, stax, durdling, or even aggro.
In regards to proxies, if someone has land proxies, mainly the alpha duels, they should announce it and let people without proxies errata a taped land in their deck into a duel. Land bases are a huge part of deck speed and consistency, so if someone is optimized via proxies, the people they play against should be as well.
Agreed.
I think people should be disclosing proxies - a lot of people don't know that your LGS commander night is an official WOTC event and you aren't allowed to play proxies there so it can avoid a lot of confusion and potentially negative actions. Aside from that there's I think a general understanding that a lot of casual games are built out of "cards I own" pools and not that highly optimized (aside from CEDH obviously) so if you're playing suboptimal cards because you don't own best in slot options it can feel really bad to play against proxied staples even within the same power level.
I agree. I don't think I've ever objected to somebody running playtest cards outside of official events. But since they aren't actual cards, giving the group a heads up is the least you can do.
The desire to proxy mainly stems from peoples' sense of narcissism. Everyone feels like theyre entitled to the best stuff without going through the steps of getting it.
If we're going to allow proxies just cause "every card is just paper, than theres no reason to really have any MtG card. We might as well be making up our own cards, drawing with crayons on construction paper.
@@ammonaustin9081 It's a tough situation. If everybody just printed up their own cards, then WotC isn't selling and the game goes away. But "going through the steps of getting it" is really just money. It's not some journey where you earn the right to play those better cards, it's a wallet fight.
@@ammonaustin9081 that's nowhere near accurate. Some people just don't have the means to buy expensive game pieces, don't prioritize spending excessive amounts on magic, don't want to support Hasbro's recent business practices, etc... Also feeling entitled and being narcissistic aren't the same thing and the steps of getting a magic card are usually 1 - pay money, 2 - wait for the mail. Not to mention that making cards is a fun activity and a way to practice game design skills. You're being a gatekeeper and making assumptions about people that don't think the same way you do, bad look.
@@jaywinner328
You can say that with almost every game or form of entertainment.
Nothing retains value by being more inclusive.
Ive worked OT at my job plenty of times to earn the cards I wanted. i didnt pout. Because at the end of the day, these cards have value even after you buy them, hence why MtG has a finance community. And I learned how to use my collection & MtG finance to get the cards I wanted even more without spending real money.
So no, I will say the biggest obstacle is laziness, not money.
Tomer dissing a sick kid's art is not something I was expecting, should've added it to the "Am I the A-hole" topic
One of my regular playgroups had a strict no infinites rule, doesn't matter if it's 2 cards or 6 cards and 30 mana. It drives me insane.
I am a firm believer that in EDH, scooping should be at sorcery speed. Mitigates a lot of those blowouts like swinging in for lethal with a lifelinker and what not.
On one hand, I do agree because of fairness. But on a flavour point of view... We are Planeswalkers. Why would we ever stick around and let an opponent kill us and not vanish the second it's clear we can't win the fight.
@@kyleellis1825 Because unless you are Teferi, you can only activate your loyalty abilities at sorcery speed lol
@@STYKE42 or Samut :P
Conceding just feels as much as part of the game as playing. I will say I prefer people to concede at sorcery speed because of how it can effect the math but it's still up to them. I'm not about to expect someone to continue playing if they are not having fun, it is just a game.