The Saltiest Cards of 2022 | Commander Clash Podcast 66
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- EDHREC Top Salty Cards: edhrec.com/top...
EDHRECast Salt Analysis: • The NEW Saltiest Cards...
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Out of context quote: "If you choke me, I don't really view that as a salty experience for me. Maybe because I've gotten choked out so many times in modern." 😂
I haven’t watched this yet but that’s definitely kinky crim
Classic thank you for that observation :)
@@shoot_again2753 🙃🙃😘😘😩💘😳😢💀
So many times in be- modern
17:28 Seth, Tomer, and Crim's braincells synchronized at the exact same time
Wow. Watching that repetitively now lol
Omg that almost feels scripted like DAMN and they DIDN'T EVEN MENTION IT??? Like that was so perfectly in sync
I think for Yuriko and Edgar specifically, you just cant get rid of them. Edgar is basically an emblem you cant interact with and Yuriko is never going to cost them more than 2. For Yuriko it also sucks to take like 10-20 damage because one of her 5 unblockable dudes got in on someone else. It's all just very hard to interact with I think.
Getting further in on the Cyc Rift discussion: Phil is right. Card sucks for games. At best for the table its a boring "I win" spell for blue. It's blue Insurrection. Yawn. At worst for the table it's recurred every turn but doesnt win, so you play out this boring ass game where one player is pseudo timewalking everyone w/ no way to win while everyone else hopes to rip some yard hate to get the game going again. In every other situation its an annoyingly OP answer to any given permanent based situation that's never a bad play since its instant speed and asymmetrical.
It being braindead 1 blue pip splashable means that any higher budget or proxy rich environment WILL see that card in every blue deck. Its not even like there's a good answer to it outside of playing blue yourself or having a bunch of money for something like a Teferi's protection. It all just feels like garbage tbh. Cyclonic Rift sucks for the format. Awful card design top to bottom.
In my casual group, one of our players really wanted to play Yuriko, "you can just kill her". In no time flat, we all felt we had to heavily warp our decks to play cheaper blockers and cheaper removal if the rest wanted to have a reasonable chance. Even with just two or three triggers each turn, Yuriko destroys the table so fast... And if *one* person is stumbling, *everyone* dies. Instead of warping our play patterns, we decided maybe Yuriko just wasn't fit for our group. The deck was very sweet, but her power level and tax evasion were also super oppressive. Really seems like a commander that you can't really "play fair".
@@Awesomesausages Been my experience too. If the ability was commander taxed she'd be fine but she's a design mistake as is.
I do not understand why people complain about cyclonic rift specifically and not just asymmetrical board wipes in general.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 No other asymmetrical board wipe is as prevalent and at instant speed.
I think the Covert Go Blue/Crew "Worst Possible" is a great way to have a pre-game discussion. It shows the cards your opponents should worry about. It also gives people a chance to opt out or change up their deck.
I love that show. I totally agree.
I like how when Phil asked about Lathril, the others responded almost in unison, people really like elves
I think the reason you guys are not seeing the saltiness of some of these cards are their abilities to keep track of on paper. For instance how everyone thought Atraxa wasn't salty. But people are probably salty waiting for a player to constantly update and take so long or miss updating the counters. Like you guys said everyone wants to play their deck and not being hindered to do so. So someone taking super long turns every turn slows everyone else from playing their deck.
I've played Drannith Magsitrate in three of my decks. i've taken them all out except in my God-Eternal Oketra hatebear deck. I think a slept on part about it, is that it not only stops commanders from being casted. But also you can't cast spells from your library, exile or graveyard so it shuts off alot of strategies on top of saying no commanders
isnt that the point of the card? stopping broken stuff like cascade with a floor of stopping commanders if no one is playing those strategies wich more often then not cheat out their cards on either mana or card draw.
it makes people play "fair" magic, isn't that what most commander players want?
@@delathenleso5793 but none of them actually keep you from playing your deck unless you don't play enough interaction. but I seem to be in the minority thinking commander shouldn't be a durdle race
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 if your deck could still function then you would be correct but some decks almost don't work at all when their main mechanic is shutdown.
@@delathenleso5793 its called proper deckbuilding. Im aware when i dont have a backup for my commander in my de k and go all in. Honestly its part of the fun for me knowing that removing Just my commander stops my entire deck. If you got me, you got me and thats fair. If i dont want that type of game i should have used a deck that has backup plans.
Completely agree with Crim on planeswalkers. Did you know that every creature has a secret ability that isn't printed on it; "During Combat, tap this creature; destroy target planeswalker"?
I am absolutely with crim.. we need more anti RAMP/TUTOR cards in various colors/cmcs.
I'd love it if they did an opposition agent cycle
-I think that Atraxa's issue is that she feels really safe, a flying deathtoucher is an amazing blocker to sit behind while developing your board, and vigilance let's you swing without care. She's like the first Chulane, not nearly as broken but she doesn't ask anything of your deck, plus an additional color
-The hate for Triumph really comes from the "white's bad, green's too good" era, it's the best sorcery overrun and while I agree that Craterhoof is better, having your "I win" card at half the mana when everyone is shouting that green is OP shifted the perception a little
For Atraxa it's a combo of people who hate poison and people who hate super-friends decks with a zillion wraths. Also super-friends plays slow. If she was never played with poison or creature denial people would be Ok with her.
And it kills really easily. So it's definitely more than just an era.
Triumph also enables some silly wins where you would have taken 8-9 in the air to a few flyers, but now you're just dead to them. It's a lot less feel bad if they're ahead enough to just wipe the table with it.
@@shayneweyker Yeah, that's it for me. People sitting behind their 4/4 (or better) deathtouch flier, managing a dozen planeswalkers. And then if they've got Inexorable Tide out, they're fiddling with loyalty dice every time they cast a spell.
Important to note that the salt score is from 0-4 and it has a 1.6 so that's like an eye roll level of salt imo
One thing of note about gnawbone is that while at a 4 person table its strong, in historic brawl it immediately swings a game. And even tho its not actually commander, a lot of people see historic brawl as commander.
"A lot of people see Historic Brawl as Commander."
Wow, a lot of people are wrong.
"Alot of people see historic brawl as command." those are what we call idiots
You don't play Prosper because you want to play RAKDOS.
You play Prosper because you want to play SIMIC but edgy.^^
Hahahahaha amazing
And yes I like to play prosper. It’s my favourite deck lol
The one thing that i got out of the salty list is that not enough people have played against mindslaver.
1 mindslaver is fine...but it's never 1 mindslaver
I think one thing you missed is ease: if you play ur-dragon, it's strong, but dragons are cool and expensive. If you win by playing dragons and attacking, it feels like you earned it.
If you win because your yuriko always costs 2 or your korvold rewards you for having treasures or chulane that requires you to play literally any creature, it feels cheap and too easy. Why do I have to do stuff, to gain value, but your commander can draw, ramp and make you a coffee every time you sneeze
urdragon litterlally does all of that as well.
I HATE extra turn spells, but I play a specific one in all my blue decks: Plea for Power. 4 mana to have the table vote on whether I get to draw 3 or take an extra turn.
i like the ways you try to find out the reasons why something is salty.
you all got good points.
I myself have 4 cards of the top 100 salt cards that i use. I also have 7 more cards in the salt list that i played in my decks and went out.
this is not cause of the salt list, its more cause i myself didnt enjoy playing them.
im also very lucky with my group, they have all less cards from the salt list then me.
In my groups we have ofc different cards that will cause salt like:
- cedh cards
- silverbullets
- tutor
- steal turns
- hardlocks
- fast mana
but the trick is to talk.
- some cedh cards do not much outside of cedh so its fine
- we took most gravehates out, as long our grave decks dont go overboard.
- we set ourselfs some districtions with tutors
- we dont steal turns anymore, maybe we end them... but no stealing turns!
- we give players fair chances to break the locks and if they happen the game ends fast
- we use fast mana for silly things (like cast gonti a huge amount of times)
small info why teferi is salty: next to you cant interact on my turn with me, you also have some hardlocks with cards like Knowledge Pool. the bounce + draw is just a small value on top. even without that lock you normaly play tefery in an planeswalker deck and they are salty cause of how timeconsuming they are.
Aura Shards makes a great answer to Humility.
It doesn't matter that my creatures don't have abilities.
It just matters that I played one.
Of course I expect Aura Shards is on the list too so take that as you will.^^
It's always interesting to see your takes on these topics, I never know who I am going to agree with 😅
I feel like the discussions you guys have are not fully formed at the start. It seems like someone needs to specify that salt isn't always strictly about power or resource denial, but can also be about things considered prohibitively priced, unfavored IP (like tWD secret lairs), or choas cards. I mean Joey goes over this in his video, but it seems half the podcast doesn't know that?
Another thing this episode would have benefited from would be, at the beginning, have everyone just describe what they think salty means or examples of cards they think are salty. For example, I get that he loves his Grixis slice of the pie, but when Crim says that so few cards on this list are salty to him, I really want to know more about what IS salty to him so I can base his comments on that for the rest of the ep.
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Edit: for cards like Cyclonic Rift or other "game ending" cards that don't actually end the game the salt usually comes when people "use them wrong" aka as a catchup up rather than a tool for winning. When Crim says "you came to play magic, what's wrong with extending the game?" The issue is that the gap in boards and several will probably discard many cards.. . thats not the way people want to play "more" magic. Like Phil said, it's just resetting what those people did while they get to watch the rift caster do whatever they want.
yeah, scrambleverse-type cards aren't super strong, but I will probably throw a shoe at you if you play a deck centered around them because I don't want my game to be 5 hours long. Same for stuff like Humility
Their perspectives and biases also form their interpretation of the topic at hand. A staunch control player knows that people don't like control, but because they like playing control they're probably more likely to misunderstand or misrepresent WHY people don't like playing against control. Players who run a lot of board wipes are unlikely to identify exactly why people hate them.
Myself... Cyclonic Rift is way less salty than any normal board wipe, BECAUSE it's a finisher in a competently built deck. Board wipes fundamentally are not finishers, nor are they even helpful. They're a catch-up mechanic that resets the game state back to the beginning of the game. But the problem then is, that just rewards the players who chose to spend their time NOT building a board state, NOT contribute to the fun at the table. The one who wasn't playing at all is now the favorite to win, solely by not playing the game before the wipe. Not only is it not fun to lose all your progress, it actively rewards the people who lost less in the process. It creates a feeling of futility, like it was a mistake to even try to play Magic The Gathering. And perhaps most frustratingly, board wipes have no impact on win rates whatsoever for the people who play them. They fundamentally do not help. And intuitively we all understand this. If everyone else did a better job building a board before, that means their deck itself is likely inherently better at building boards than yours, so the board wipe only slows down your loss. It's a bunch of frustration and annoyance that quite literally nobody benefited from. And that's generally why people can't stand them.
It's weird to me how many people hate on Edgar Markov, but have nothing to say about Najeela, which is both way more aggro, and brings in 5c goodstuff piles as well as easy infinite combos.
Weird that Crim has complained about fast mana before but had no issues with the commander lotus or gaea's cradle.
He changes his mind as much as he changes his hair color.
Are they really worse than, say, sol ring, mana crypt, and the like?
@@BobardeZanzibar Cradle I'm iffy about. However I completely agree with Jeweled Lotus. There are some commanders that can be played off of just a Jeweled Lotus + Basic that basically win the game on the spot turn 1 before anyone else gets a chance to play. For example, you win almost instantly with Jhoria, Weatherlight Captain when she gets played. I play out all my eggs to draw through my deck, find Dramatic Reversal, and burn the table out of the game immediately. If I had to guess about Cradle, it's just a win more card with certain cards and commanders.
I think the lotus is a mistake, but it can only be used on the commander, so its way less abusable than the sol ring or crypt doing it every turn after wards and most of the time, the value of the fast mana that stays is way higher
@@DrFrogman The power level or condition of the card doesn't affect how fun it is, sometimes if you have it in your hand the game is just over.
Just in time! I just ran out of podcasts and was about to switch to listening to commander clash while I work
Concerning the Dockside vs Cyclonic Rift discussion, I think what Phil was trying to get at is most stuff on the salt list is there for one of two base reasons: "it's too broken" or "it feels bad" but they all share the same scale. So maybe adding that factor will make the scale make more sense.
I play Thassa's Oracle in Wizard Tribal. Because it's a wizard. Odds of me winning a game with it are pretty low.
But think of how hilarious it would be if you did win.
You are one of the few good people, it mostly just a dumb card that I not cry if got banned personally
@@BobardeZanzibar I mean, I have like 30+ Wizards and Azami in the deck. It could happen.
Some people have clearly never played infect in commander. Normally in a game of commander you have other players also beating eachother up. Its very rare that you deal all 40 damage to a player yourself. Its usually around 20. Which is why voltron strategies don't actually have that much of an advantage. I would say about half the time my voltron deck kills people its through regular damage. But infect doesn't have that alternate strategy to fall back on. And their cards are over costed to make up for the power of infect. Plus the card pool is sooo small. There isn't even a good infect commander which is why people use atraxa. Infect isn't any scarier than any voltron deck.
Now I want a saltiest tribal commander clash episode!!
Funny story about divine intervention. I actually have a phelddagrif deck that gets it out pretty consistently. It takes a lot of setup, but the combo works like this. Give everyone tons of mana and cards. Stockpile counterspells to make sure your thing goes through. (You can usually make a deal with the person in last) Find an opening to cast hivemind, then cast enduring ideal. Now players are locked into just getting enchantments for the rest of the game. Immediately get Divine intervention. It will usually result in an o-ring battle. Instead of engaging in o-ring nonsense, find pillow fort cards. (War tax is excellent when you aren't spending your mana on anything else) Once no one can hit you and everyone's running out of enchantments, o-ring their o-ring and get the Divine intervention back. Profit.
I actually did this in a local game with a small prize pool. Everyone was confused, especially the judge.
Played my first ever paper game in magic today! Three of us had pre con decks and this one guy had 5C Jodah with every good black tutor, omniscience, rhystic study, smothering tithe and all the Eldrazi. Safe to say he destroyed us even after we played 5 board wipes
the new legendary cascade Jodah or the old jodah?
witness protection, kenriths transformation, reprobation, I recommend sticking a few of these effects in if possible. and if you witness the main threat for the board theres a decent chance people will help you protect it.
That person is a massive pubstomping douche bag. I’m sorry that happened to you.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 it was the old Jodah, his whole deck was filled with ways to just make ridiculous amounts of mana or play things for free. I should add a few effects like that for sure
@@starmanda88 It was so incredibly obnoxious. Spent most of the game trying to deal with things like Omniscience, Miraris wake, bootleggers stash etc as well as every single busted creature he could just play basically for free. The game lasted two entire hours, we played 5 board wipes and several removal spells against him and he still just wiped us all out
I believe Jeweled Lotus is on because it is just about a must play card in one or two color decks that can allow turn one commanders and is overall a card people don't want to exist
I have a suspicion that a lot of the hate around Infect cards like Triumph of the Hordes is from lifegain players (2nd most common non-Tribal theme on EDHREC) who feel like Infect instantly nullifies their lifegain strategy.
That or unblockable/evasion players. But really the problem is with all the unblockable cards, not infect.
Infect is just aggro but twice as fast.... and that's in standard. In Commander it's 4x faster, which is so fast that even the addition of multiplayer makes it strictly superior to other forms of aggro.
Day k of n of asking for MLD week on Commander Clash
I'd just love to see everyone play MLD while also trying to play around it with Crucible of Worlds and indestructible lands.
I really hope they do this at some point, I think it'd be one of the funniest games to date!
I'm thinking about building a deck with ALL the MLD but since those spells are only in WRB I'm on the fence between making it 3C or if 5C is worth it for the extra 7 Indestructible lands (for those unaware, there are 10 dual color Ind. Lands that enter tapped and the 2 others that don't being Cascading Cataracts and Darksteel Citadel).
My group has no problem with MLD (funnily enough regardless of who casts it) because I end the game in 3 turns max and don't durdle around. If I cast it I'm going for the win, if someone else casts it I laugh with my paranoia for sandbagging lands like Nykthos and Gaea's Cradle until I'm ready to go for the win.
@@Ixidora Someone (Crim?) should just bring a mono-U deck with Yamimaya+Acid Rain and a ton of counters for everyone else’s MLD spells.
@@Graatand also run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Kormus Bell with some mass creature bounce too lolz
Fun episode also Tomer, it was Seth who pulled off the Divine Intervention "win".
Tomer: Oko isn't salty
Also Tomer: Oko can completely shut down a commander, so that they have to kill it. It's so good.
And should have really said completely shut down a commander, and then another one, and then another one, because it's a freaking plus ability when it should be like -2 or -3.
@@zarath7"And there are so many decks built around the commander. Oko stops them from being able to play the game until they remove their own commander, AND recast it and deal with Oko. And he's only 3 mana, and can do it every TURN, and that's only one of his many abilities."
Personally, I love stacks cards in commander, but only power levels about 5. If you play them in low power games, then you are a bad friend, because stacks isn't very enjoyable. But if you slam a Back to Basics or Oko in a game full of tuned decks, I don't think it's a big problem. Humility or Gift are a league of their own, like Choke or Boil, cause they hate on specific decks, but at high power they usually read "target opponent concedes"
@@beanthebuilder Even if your deck is built around your commander, you built your deck poorly if the deck ONLY works with your commander in play.
Myself, I hate cards that say "no", but I'm totally fine with cards that say "yes, but". I will play Archon of Absolution so that you pay 1 to attack me, but I won't play Blazing Archon to make it so you just can't attack me at all. Tax decks can be pretty fun, especially when the table slowly realizes that yes, actually, we should be paying our taxes because it benefits us, instead of just going after each other while leaving me alone to avoid getting taxed.
@dontmisunderstand6041 I agree. The only downside is that 3 tax cards happen to be just broken. Smothering tithe, rhystic, and that 5 cmc enchantment super ghostly prison. In concept they are cool, in reality they are undercooked and ruin so many games
@@beanthebuilder Smothering Tithe I wouldn't consider a tax because there's no way to play around it. It's just a thing that definitely always happens, because there's no choice whatsoever in avoiding it. Rhystic Study at least there's some choice involved, though in practice it's more than a bit overtuned.
I agree with Crim about cyclonic rift. To me if it's used as a wincon, it's no different than seeing craterhoof multiple times.
31:00 Triumph of the hordes is leagues better than an overwhelming stampede. You don't need a tall creature, and often 3 mana dorks can kill 1 player, you don't have to kill everybody.
Teferi, Time Raveler, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, City of Solitude, and Defense Grid make me the most salty out of any cards in commander. Usually what I see happen is Player A plays one of those cards, several turns later Player B wins the game because I am unable to stop them and Player A barely has any interaction in their deck.
23:22 Crim's opinion here is basically my own opinion on these salty cards so the only thing that makes me salty is when other people in the game don't recognise the threat and won't listen to reason leading to the player with the problem card winning
I have no problems with the player with the problem card winning. I do have problems with the problem carding reading "other players might not get to play the game".
As far as the discussion about triumph of the hordes goes, I think it’s important to remember that you can have a (2/2) and 2 (1/1)s out or some similar small force and kill someone with infinite life. Idk about everyone else’s meta but as a fairly new/seasoned casual player, those types of out of nowhere 1 turn kills that nullify whatever you did for the whole game would make me salty. BE THAT AS IT MAY that’s just explaining why I think the score is high, and I think triumph of the hordes is something that belongs in magic and in commander. (maybe not named battle royale, but here we are) Love you guys! Listen to every podcast I can I always appreciate your critical thinking
That's a good way of looking at it. "Does it create an unearned win that invalidates the rest of the game entirely?" If yes, people are right to be salty about that. Same as cards that just prevent the game from being played in general.
The thing with the Commanders on the list is that they really just require a Rule 0 conversation. Like Crim said, if you just sit down, pull out Atraxa, and start playing, you are going to draw a lot of hate. It won't matter that it is a "Energy" deck or some other "low power" theme. You will get hated out before you can make that clear.
If you hate on the Atraxa player for no reason, you should probably quit magic.
The salt scale and broader power levels are mainly for pick up games with randos, and I am not going to trust a random commander player who is choosing to play with Atraxa about what there power level is. If you choose to play the most popular, boring, commander that is also generically powerful, targeting you is the correct choice in 90% of games. If you don’t like that, don’t play Atraxa in pickup games
I think that most people in this comment section and even in the video itself are massively overestimating how many people are even aware of the metagame outside their playgroup.
I hate that commander has such a big community and we legacy players have none. People can discuss Cyclonic Rift for days (and they do it) but if I ever had 7 (!!!) mana I would have won the game like 5 times already. I'd love if there was just one channel or at least one format where people discuss legacy cards.
It's called control and is a valid play style. With that said, have win conditions. Don't make them linger.
I don't know if I'd call it valid, but it certainly is a playstyle. It's just more trolling and less trying to win. A "control" deck with win conditions is probably just a midrange deck.
Crim is right, we need more tutor hate that doesn't just slap wrists- it hits them with bricks.
Divine Intervention is very much a “technically I didn’t win but by god do I feel like I won”
Divine Intervention definitely is a win. Not technically, but everyone else didn't win because of your card, not much different from winning.
Divine Intervention is very much a win because everyone is going to laugh, at multiple points. First, when you cast it, and later when it somehow resolves despite everyone trying to not let it.
Teferi's likely salty because it combos with Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm, along with all the counterspell/interaction getting shut off.
I don’t understand getting salty from any card. When I hear that people don’t like not being able to execute their plan, I hear, “I don’t like when other people try to win.”
I am 100% sure Devastation made the list because people saw it for the first time DURING THE POLL and just thought, "Oh, fuck THAT."
The issue with infect is it’s an angry dog play style. You rarely spread it around, you target one player and don’t let up. And doing 10 damage to a player isn’t hard. Sure that often won’t win you the game, but that loss is of little consolation to the person that got knocked out on T3.
Even in standard, infect is just aggro but twice as fast. That's the inherent problem with it. Poison counters ARE the problem with infect.
You should keep cyclonic rift - it's only really salty when you lose to it via EOT + combo/swing out. As a wrath, it's fine. Often enough you'll get wrathed back and not even have the cards bounced to your hand.
I've had multiple games where the board state was in a such a stalemate everyone was begging for a Rift to put us all out of our misery. Folks just like to complain. If they got rid of Rift everyone would just start bitching about whatever the next best wrath is. Rift's powerful but there's some truly miserable cards out there.
@@yaoguai8459 Rift isn't a board wipe, it's a finisher. If that's ever not true, you built your deck wrong. Conversely, board wipes are never finishers and do not help the player who cast it win the game. They have no impact on win rates, they only make the game take longer.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 well here's the thing, expert. Games don't always go according to your plans and sometimes you're in situations where you're behind on board and you need to, idk, bounce everyone else's board just so you can stabilize and not lose. It's versatility is why that card is so powerful. Got any more trash opinions?
@@yaoguai8459 This is more correct for Rift than a traditional board wipe, yes. The fact that you lose nothing is what makes it usable as a finisher in the first place. The problem is... if things are not going to plan, that's when Cyclonic Rift helps you least. Its strength as a comeback mechanic is reliant on you not being that far behind in the first place. Hence why it's a finisher, not a board wipe. If you're using it as a board wipe, you're still going to lose.
No, it's really not the versatility that makes it powerful. It's the asymmetry.
Re: Divine Intervention, I'll never forget one commander game I played during a Christmas event at a small shop. One of the opponents played Rule of Law, The Abyss, followed it up with humility, and finished with Divine Intervention for the tie. I wasn't even mad, he was a super chill guy.
The scale is a sign that the edh community often has set in stone views that are never challenged by new thoughts, e.g. high salt for 3feri, Oko and rift. The problem with magistrate is that you can't even attempt to cast your commander. Other answers are normally a 1 for 1. Same is true for hushbringer and opp agent. You want to stop certain powerful spells, but you sometimes preamtively deny many cards.
As someone who plays both Yuriko and Edgar, if these cards are such a problem then Wizards needs to print commanders that will allow you to play their strategies without running these commanders. There is no other alternative Mardu commander that cares about vampires. If the artifact side of Edgar, Charmed Groom was red, he would have been an amazing alternative commander for lower power-level tables but for some reason they didn't do that. Satoru Umezawa is an awesome commander but he doesn't incentivize running any ninjas and in some ways punishes you for doing so. Sorry if I'm making you upset with my commanders but I've been playing these tribes since Zendikar and I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.
I think the problem with those two on the salt scale is that they don't really care about the tribe in the same way something like the ur-dragon does.
The best way to play Yuriko is with unblockable creatures and 20 cmc cards. It is not really ninja tribal.
Similar but different for Edgar. Because of his eminence ability you don't need to play interesting vampires, as most time it is better to play a 1 mana vampire with no abilities.
I agree that some other tribal commander for those tribes should be printed, but I think that their high score is unrelated to the tribal side, and is just because those cards are just too good.
@@BertockLeg Yeah I can agree with that, I really wish Yuriko had "other Ninjas you control" because I think that would have made her way less annoying to play against.
Also, people hate being hit by repeated and mass discard because it destroys their ability to make and execute a multi-turn plan and to wait to play spells at just the right moment. It also increases dependence on luck of the draw and makes games longer.
At a fundamental level... normal removal and counterspells are 1 for 1s. You are breaking even. Normal discard spells are 1 for 2s. Not only are they shutting you down so you don't get to play, they do it in a way that is more efficient in both card advantage AND mana advantage. You can build around counterspells by simply making every card a threat they need to remove, thus putting you effectively ahead because of it. You can't do that against discard decks without just playing cardsthat makes their deck unplayable. It doesn't feel like you won when you do that, it makes you feel like they lost, which is a key difference. So you're in a situation where it's NEVER fun to play against, no matter who wins and no matter how the game goes.
1:22:47 earned my like. "Hello, stranger. What are ya sellin'?!"
What is pushed is greens ability to ramp like crazy without any downsides and often even getting further rewarded for it - not the opposition agent.
This 💯
There should be more cards that actively punish tutor effects. But, key here... that shouldn't be asymmetrical. When a card says don't do this, it shouldn't also say "but it's ok when I do it". We need more hate, but less hypocrisy.
Don't take that out of context.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 I see what you’re saying. On the other hand in order for such a „hate“ card to be played you need to get some value out of it. Or else you are not gonna spend the resources and card slot. It simply wouldnt be played if it only hated without generating some value for your resources spent.
@@SP-ik6cc People spend card slots and mana on other do-nothing stax effects. And a tutor hate effect would just be more effective at what it does than those, by making itself harder to remove via the anti-tutor effect.
i feel like there should be explanations of why the salty cards "deserve" their score so that folks can understand why it's that way as its not obvious to everyone.
also there should be a salty playstyle chart as well as i have played games where a person has run a "oops all counters" style deck where they play lock down pieces and counter anything else so that you lose to mill.
when i voice my opinion to them on why i refuse to play against such decks i get spoken to as if i am being "unfair" or "close minded" cause the person is being denied to play a game that i am in e.g. they now no longer have a 4 person pod for commander as i refuse to play against that deck
The irony of the person playing the "you do not get to play the game" deck complaining about not getting to play the game...
The issue I personally have with Triumph of the Hoards is that generally, not only does it demand the absolute least work of any overrun-style effect to straight up kill a single player outright, it renders life totals (and thus many prior game actions) wholly irrelevant. There are other cards/situations that do one or the other, but Triumph does both while demanding a relatively minimal board state. If you got craterhoofed by an OP with like 10 creatures, it feels like that was an earned win. Triumph of the Hoards doesn't care about your life total, demands far less board state to take out specific players, and costs half as much mana, so yeah, I'm not going to feel great if I lose to a handful of 2/2s from 40 off of it or something.
If proxying becomes more popular and accepted due to everything with M30, I wonder if a lot of these expensive salty cards dip a bit.
A few of my friends play high level (non-cEDH) often using Cockatrice, and having access to every card virtually regardless of price definitely shifts the perspective a bit.
About the random free counterspell in a deck (1:05:00):
I would like to know it beforehand, IF we play a low-to-mid powered casual game.
Specific cards represent a specific powerlevel, I would say.
If we are slamming some timmy-cards on the table and suddenly someone interrupts me with no mana open, but a Force of Will in hand, I would feel bad.
If I play Circle of Protection: Red and you respond with a 0 mana counterspell, I'm not playing the game with you anymore. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
@@dontmisunderstand6041
If I could bait out a counterspell with a CoP:Red and thus clear the way for an actual impactful spell, I’d feel pretty good.
@@Graatand Exactly why I'm not playing with them. That's not a play, that's spite. They're just doing it to be an asshole.
Yeah... playing at the store last Friday... got winter orbed for three turns then into a Armageddon, with that on the stack a teferis protection was cast... I wasn't salty but the game was bunk for sure haha
Crim is a living meme.
I'm with Crim, i get mld and turns to an extent but i think a lot of these cards are just cards.
People should get over free counters and fast mana, but by the same score as a whole we should acknowledge that these are powerful cards we need to police in our playgrounds. I'd play nearly anything on the list into the right pod.
"the right pod" is the pod where everybody is playing those same cards, so they balance each other out
@@altromonte15 i have a tergrid deck that has some salt but isn't overly powerful, i've found veterans don't find sac/dis as salty as newer players.
But i won't play dockside, thoracle or rift outside cedh, everything else i think should be fine outside starter decks with most people at my flgs. Even if other people aren't jamming them.
As it stands and I haven't looked entirely at the salt score yet but just based on this video there are 12 main categories that people get salty over.
•Locking out: lands, card draw (Narset), tutors (opposition agent), ramp (Karn/Vorenclix)
•Stacks
•Mass land destruction
•Resource imbalance (dockside extortionist)
•Lock pieces that prevent you from playing your deck (Dranith Magistrate)
•Free spells (free counter spells)
•Extra turns
•Counter spells
•Chaos
•Uninteractable win conditions
•Overpowered or overpopulated commanders
•Overpowered or overpopulated Staples
Alot of these cards slow the game down which is slow enough with four players. If you cast humility just to slow the table down waiting to draw second sunrise it can be pretty salty.
Question to think about - what cards or win conditions to you least mind losing to?
I least mind losing to card effects that say "win the game". After that, "lose the game" effects like Door to Nothingness. Those are the two that I'm never really salty about. Non-infinite value combos are fine. No issues. I don't like some components of them, but whatever. Basic combat damage, I mind unless I haven't gotten to play the game yet... aggro beating me before I cast 3 spells is not cool, nor is losing to a control deck that cast a removal spell on 17 consecutive attempts for me to play a card. Many pieced infinite combos are fun to see but not as fun to play against multiple times in a row. If I die to a 6 card combo, you deserve to win. Mill is not fun, because the only viable mill decks are combos, not true mill. They're not routinely milling me until I eventually lose. We're not racing against a clock. No, they have one card that doubles how much they mill and a second that says mill half the deck. Pure 100% combo. Any deck can put those two cards in and be equally good at milling their opponent. I don't mind playing NORMAL mill decks. Mill combos makes me salty. Likewise, I put an exception to my first point... win the game effects that are just self mill I count as mill and not a win the game effect. They go down here, with ALL 2-3 card combos that automatically win the game. After that, poison counters are just aggro cranked up to 11. I lost to a standard legal deck on turn 3 to poison counters one time. Fuck that. I came to play magic. That isn't even worth the time spent shuffling. That's something I care very much about, people respecting each others' time. Shuffling is something we just have to do to get to play the game. The shorter the match, the more time we spend shuffling and not playing. Poison counters are the epitome of wasting my god damn time. But, that's not even the bottom of the list. The thing I hate most is specifically when one player concedes in order to play kingmaker in a multiplayer game. In example, I cast act of treason on Player B's big threat because I know player B's board can't beat mine, and that creature kills Player C this turn... so Player B concedes to prevent me from taking their creature, meaning player C lives and then I lose. I don't mind when the kingmaker decides who wins by playing cards. Don't do it with outside methods.
Island better be on this video
I generally don’t mind any of the salty cards other than every Teferi ever made. His story is cool and I like the flavor but the gameplay just makes me sad 😂
"Cyclonic Rift is so boring..." The same can literally be said about every single boardwipe, overrun effect, and big splashy win now spell. There is no more reason to hate on Cyclonic Rift than any other tremendous spell that swings the favor dramatically in the favor of the person who cast it. Yeah, it sucks when you are on the end of that spell. But, 7 mana is a huge cost to pay, and it could even be countered. Holding up 7 blue to cast it as an instant on the end step before your turn is also really risky, because it could be countered and you would miss a whole turn. How is Farewell & Vanquish the Horde not worse than Cyclonic Rift? At least you get the shit back in your hands with Cyclonic Rift. Sure, it is annoying when you get your board bounced, but it is completely fair.
Phil hit the nail on the head with Cyclonic rift.
It just requires no thought, it's too easy. At 7 mama you just bounce everything at end of turn and get a massive tempo swing that usually results in a win.
There's no real decision to make there.
River's Rebuke is just a weaker Cyclonic Rift, and I've found playing it that by the time I have the 6 mana to cast it free AND no longer need to advance my own board state, casting it means the opponent spends the next 3 turns resetting their board, and it almost always ends on a weaker board than the one I bounced. It's mind-boggling to me that people don't see that the FLOOR of cyclonic rift is 3 time walks stapled together.
I agree. I've always felt that it should have more blue pips so it's harder to throw in every deck.
Triumph is more salty because it only costs 4. In a format when early turns are usually playing "land go" or "land mana rock go", dropping some small creatures early then using Triumph to immediately delete a player from the game is a very salty experience. The other Overrun effects usually won't come down in time for an insta-kill simply by being one turn later.
Overrun also doesn't let you get an early kill at all in commander. No matter how you slice it, you're not dealing 40 damage with Overrun by casting it on curve. You can easily give someone 10 poison counters with Triumph while playing purely on curve. It being one turn later isn't the issue. Even if Overrun was 3 mana it STILL wouldn't let people get early kills before the other players are ready.
1. Dranith magistrate isn't hard to deal with at all. Sure there have been times where I haven't been able to cast my commander but that's why you run removal or more importantly a back up plan that doesn't involve your commander. 2. Cyclonic rift isn't a problem because it's basically a win con like crim said. It's the way people play it that's salt inducing not the card itself. 3. I think there should be more free counterspells or semi free/reduced counterspells because of how fast the format is in general. I've played commander for almost 10 yrs and the casual format is way faster than it was and regular counters just don't count anymore
Cyclonic Rift is salty because you can keep up interaction, wipe the board if need be, and start your turn with all of your mana up because it’s an instant. (Imo)
Made someone really salty with Teferi TR. Not because I was using it to counter all their spells, but because they had a commanding board advantage and I managed to stabilize by playing Teferi 3 times in a row, bouncing their creatures, then getting in for damage and eventually winning by turning Teferi into a dinosaur and swinging for lethal.
I know I’m way late responding to this, but y’all missed the reasons why Atraxa is on this list. First, she’s been around forever: once upon a time, she was a real beast that appeared at the helm of a precon … she’s not so scary anymore, but in the past she was top tier and prevalent. Second, she was basically the default Superfriends commander, and Superfriends is kind of a miserable archetype to lose against. Your opponent, when they win, are taking like 6 actions per turn before they even tap their mana. It can feel pretty doomed. Oh and she also helms infect decks, another archetype people don’t love.
One of the other issues with Atraxa: she's the *only* Witch-Maw commander that doesn't require partner. If WotC printed more redless commanders with other mechanics, I think you'd see less Atraxa decks.
All this list says to me is, "Cards you should be playing." Saltiness is directly correlated to how good a card can be. Crim kind of mentioned it in more-or-less words: play interaction. Counter a spell; counter a counter; destroy a problematic creature, artifact, enchantment, planeswalker; exile something that's indestructible; etc. Play interaction. It's hard (if not impossible) to account for everything, but you should probably account for what negatively effects YOUR deck _the most._
The pay-to-win element is definitely a big contributor to salt scores.
You know you can choose Money with Expropriate to gain control of a permanent you own but no longer control. So if Crim steals your Helm of Kaldra with Gonti and plays it, you can get it back!
I have heard many an argument, I am still playing jokulhaups and loving it. I have never resolved a jokulhaups, and then not had such a clear advantage that I won the game shortly thereafter. The worst I have had was one player didn't want to scoop for 5 turns. Still didn't take long, still not an issue. I think the idea that you shouldn't scoop unless you have deterministically lost is more of the problem. If your only out is that I only draw lands for the next 10 turns, probably just scoop and play another game or go home.
I'm starting to think how salty a card will be depends in part on how it's played, but things like removal on a stick in the Command Zone is pretty annoying.
Flashfires is a decent card, but my Pavel deck switched it out for Omen of Fire, which also hoses Islands because most decks running white run few Plains, Flashfire is too often a dead card, but Omen of Fire is always a good time I feel (in comparison anyways, people can just run Jund?).
As much as I once felt 'a strong deck is strong because it has a strong Commander', I now feel a lot more that internal synergy and consistency is what usually makes a deck good, decks that rely on an especially strong (and are thus very obvious) Commander tend not to be as good in practice. Atraxa is fine, it's not a 'problem', it's just a solid card. I feel like stuff like Chulane and Korvold are indeed better examples of actually problematic Commander picks.
Triumph of the Hordes is usually worse than Overwhelming Stampede, but people just have a visceral dislike of Infect, it's such a scary thing in Commander potentially. I don't consider it salty, but I don't run it either I suppose. I think Mass Diminish is a much saltier card, and that's even in Blue. It doesn't take away abilities, but using it twice is pretty sadistic when you remember it lasts a turn CYCLE. Craterhoof is a bit salty to me, I don't like running it in Commander, even in deck where it's a totally playable card, it's just that having a wide board is a pretty small ask, so it's just too 'easy button' for my taste. I might put one in someday, I have decks that probably want them.
I think that's what tends to make me more salty now, not cards that are 'good but hard to play' like Stax, now I don't like to run cards that are simultaneously too good/pushed and too simple, stuff like Craterhoof is saltier than Static Orb is usually, which probably explains why I run Static Orb and don't run Craterhoof? I am too weird. I don't even play Oracle in cEDH, it's just a dumb effect that shouldn't have been made, much like Dockside, it's a meta-warping design mistake. The only thing that saves it from being banned is that people don't run it terribly often. Rift is an obnoxious card, Blue is not the colour that should have had this effect, it should have been Colourless and cost more mana, this would avoid a lot of salt, it's too early and too big, and later game it can just close things by itself, which isn't fun.
Dockside is an ironic card, in lots of metas it's way, way worse, and is even a bad card most of the time, while Cyclonic Rift will literally just win you the game that turn later game since everyone has a big janky board presence that they will need 4 or 5 turns to recast, and jank tokens might as well scoop after a rift, your own janky board can just kill the biggest threat when they can't block.
Urza is obnoxious as a Commander, but in the 99 who cares IMHO. If you're bothered by it throw in a bad card to make yourself feel better. Old Gnawbone is pretty absurd, I have no idea why this card made sense to anyone, but it did clearly and got made. At least it doesn't have card draw stapled to it as well **cough cough FACEBREAKER cough cough**.
Prosper is a fun Commander, but I find impulse draw annoying, I can't run all my pesky wipes. As far as the strongest Rakdos Commander, I think Pavel might have him beat, Pavel can 1 shot a player from full health without any voltron, that's a pretty good ability arguably, all Prosper has is his value engine which offers ramp and cards.
The Walking Dead are pretty salty to me, but more because they feel like the world's biggest flavor fail. They were all pushed, and the biggest source of salt was that they were printed without in universe equivalents, you either ran these awful skins or didn't get to use those abilities, and each has interesting elements.
Teferi, Time Raveler is a really annoying card, but I feel like it's too easy to deal with in a 4 player game to really 'be a problem'. It's really salty in 1v1, but in 4 player who cares about Threeferi IMHO?
Stuff like Oko is why you a truly strong deck is rarely about the Commander being all that busted, builds of Tymna/Thrasios/Kraum aside maybe. Drannith Magistrate is a cEDH card that probably shouldn't have been printed, it's just awful to play against, I think that's way more obnoxious than Oko, you can easily run +10 removal effects and not draw any (or have used them up already on 'remove or lose' stuff), you can't just attack a Magistrate to death.
Stealing other people's stuff is a valid strategy that can be very fun/memorable for all involved, provided it's not the only thing going on in the meta. There is a tipping point where too much theft is occurring and games bog down, but short of that it's fine. You can also run clones/copies as an alternative to stealing, some people feel better or worse about that.
Opposition Agent is a huge mistake of a card, there is no reason this should have been printed, and the effect is super contrary to fun gameplay. Just don't play this card outside cEDH, fortunately lots of games it'll suck at lower power and nobody is in Green, then you'd be better off running a real card and not obnoxious hatebears. At least Aven Mindcensor was fun to play against!
If people don’t like the salty permanents like cradle of humility of dockside….play more removal! I only get salty from complete stasis like locks and instant/sorcery total land destruction etc.
Rules Comity: Coalition Victory is too strong.
Rules Comity: Thorical is fine, carry on.................
Should be the other way around. ><
Thoracle is only UU (Can go in ANY color combination with U and only 2cmc) and can only be stopped via counterspell and stifle.
Coalition Victory is 3WUBRG (Limited to 5 color AND 8 cmc), is SORCERY speed, and can be stopped by removing a key CREATURE or two which ANY color can do.
The proper way to play around counterspells is in deck construction. Just don't play so few threats that you lose to a series of 1 for 1 trades.
Re: Infect
So this is a weird idea thematically, but could work well mechanically...
What if creatures with infect dealt damage to players in the form of commander damage instead of poison counters?
Maybe if you were going to change this rule, poison should count towards every commander's commander damage and not just your own. Otherwise while it is a nerf it doesn't address the problem of the infect player being encouraged to single-mindedly bully one other player since they are progressing their win condition orthogonally to everyone else.
I personally only get the chance to play a few times a month, like a poker night. With that in mind: I want to be able to play, I don't have to win, and I really enjoy watching a deck "do it's thing", even if the deck isn't mine.
My salty side comes out when you're stopping the other players in the game from playing, or are completely pub-stomping. It's one thing to remove an important piece to a combo, counter a win-con, or wipe the board, even if those are asymmetrical and it leads to win shortly thereafter. Stasis and lockout control is just forcing me to sit there and watch you play.
I started playing this game with my best friend who was the Spike player that didn't want to let others do anything. It made for boring games, and when we went to commander it was even worse.
The only time I want to sit around and watch everyone else play is when I've been brought down from my archenemy role, or my deck isn't playing well in that game, as those games happen.
I'm cool with you winning, there has to be a winner. I just don't jive with being forced to watch you play because you said so, essentially, and that if I don't want to play anymore then you'll walk away feeling accomplished. Especially when, in my experience, the players that build to stop others from playing cry out the loudest and longest when they are eliminated from the game for stopping everyone else from progressing.
Thassa's Oracle is so salt inducing is because there is essentially no way to interact with it.
Only way to stop Thoracle is if you're ALSO playing U and can counter it (And the several counters the Thoracle player will likely to chuck at you to counter your counters) or can stifle the effect (Which ALSO requires U and how many U players even pack STIFLE effects?). If Thassa's Oracle hits the field and you can't stifle it, it's game.
At least with Laboratory Maniac destroying it will prevent it from going off (As it's a static effect on the card and not a triggered ability that goes on the stack) and literally every color can manage that.
Blue also has that 5 mana legend that says "spells can't be countered"
@@dontmisunderstand6041 Lier, Disciple of the Drowned.
Craterhoof is 1.7 salt score but its actually over 9000 when you use the secret lair art :P
Other overruns don't also set your life total to ten and pretty much guarantee you lose even an indestructible commander on a block if you can survive somehow.... triumph does. For 4 mana
I think most people don't know what is consider " salt" anymore, like my friend thinks my miirym deck is consider "salty" because it's a kill in sight commander, but he pulls a notion theft on me and stole like 5 card draw. Like the category of salt I really hate are cards that really prevents you from playing you the game that's like lock you down like static orb or back to basic, stealing your commander, reject card draw etc.
I think the nuance is being missed with cyc rift and dockside. Dockside is super powerful but it scales with other peoples decks/your deck. Ie: in cedh u can drop it early and easily get a bunch of treasures but in normal games it can sometimes only make a couple treasures. it’s def super powerful tho.
Cyclonic on the other hand is so easy to setup and invalidate a ton of gameplay. It doesn’t scale well and reallllly messes up games where people don’t have a lot of ways to redeploy quickly.
I would rather see wrath of god or damnation hit than cyclonic rift. There are workarounds to destruction effects. You cannot play around non-targeted bounce. There literally are not cards that do. The only option is counterspell, and that's an inherently unfun situation. "Already have the out in hand AND mana untapped to use it" should never be the ONLY way to survive an effect.
You rate cards as salty because they destroy lands and don't let you play spells.
I rate cards as salty because I don't like the color green.
We are not the same
I think the Idea behind the Salt scores is that those are cards you should specifically bring up when you are talking about your deck before the game to establish powerlevel/game experience. I don't think it means don't play them at all, but don't spring them on someone out of nowhere.
Also: Don't agree with Crim on the full Opposition Agent thing, but he makes an excellent point. Green is too powerful because people are too against Land Destruction, so there SHOULD be answers to Green ramp. Something like a fixed Confounding Conundrum or the like.
Some of these are only on the list because they are half of a combo/lock. Teferi can so easily turn into 'opponents can't cast spells anymore.' Agent of Treachery becomes "blink-blink-blink-blink now I have all the things" The card, individually, might not be that bad, but the combo is salt
I don't know why thassa's oracle gets hate but demonic consultation doesn't. I play thassa in my thassa mono blue devotion deck as value and a wincon. If I can literally draw my entire deck, I think it is fine that I can just win.
With strangers I think salty cards should be viewed at there ceiling when determining the power level of the deck even if the ceiling isn't always reached
I think reason hate rift is the instant speed on the end step before my term is such a tempo advantage for that player
I agree. I also hate the fact that it's one blue pip. It goes in every deck that runs blue.
While I don't get salty from triumph, there are a lot of boards where triumph kills where other overruns don't. You can have just five 1/1s with evasion and you can finish people at 40 life. I bet there's quite a few players who just like gaining a bunch of life. It's not hard to do and they feel safe at 140 life and then suddenly triumph and they cry...
I was playing Tivit and someone else was playing Shorikia, they played back to basics. I had an academy manufacturer and a time seive out, I had just enough mana to play Tivit where I would've essentially won the game, since I had a duelist heritage as well. The Shorikia player counters Tivit, where then I'm essentially locked out of the game having only 2 basics in play and 2 mana rocks. I didn't scoop I played the game out and it was incredibly boring not being able to play and having other stuff either countered or destroyed when I was able to play anything. Compared to me winning the game on the stop with Tivit. Both decks are arguably salty but which deck is lesser of the 2?
I guarantee that many people voted lower in the salt score if they know they won't see the card often. The (Is this card played much?/Does this card not allow me to play magic?) ratio is very real.
I personally don't like land "combos" in casual Commander. Field of the Dead and other cards that work like this make me kinda salty.
It's somewhat abusing the casual factor everyone agreed on because noone plays land-destruction.
I extend a trust in you that you will not mess wit my mana, and in turn I don't put in ways to abuse that trust like ramp or lands that are more like spells than lands.
On the Rule 0 question, always consider talking to people you play with. Commander is a multiplayer format. And if you really care about the enjoyment of the table, you will check with them to see if you all can maximize the fun.
I feel like a bunch of these cards are solved by running removal and counter magic of your own so I agree w Crim