Utkarsh Mohan on Music #24: Why Guitarists are fooled by Tonewood
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Gibson, PRS or even Andertons may look responsible for the cult of tonewood. But the Real Reason is much more fascinating
Link to the 'Brain hallucinates conscious reality' Ted Talk by Anil Seth
• Your Brain Hallucinate...
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Many people hate Glenn Flicker for daring to say that speakers are the ones that affect tone instead of humbuckers
I agree with him on the speaker bit. But his entire persona is ‘man of the people’ ‘expensive things are silly to buy’ so that restricts him from making some conclusions
Truth sometimes hurt . !
Yeah I've experimented with different speakers and they make a huge difference. For my 65 Deluxe reverb I settled on 2 16 ohm speakers
1) a 1955 EV speaker
2) a newer Celestion Vintage 30
It made a huge difference in my tone.
@@AverageAlGuitar THIS!
@@AverageAlGuitar Exactly this! So many people misunderstand Glen's point.
I wish I could hallucinate a reality where I can afford more guitars.
it's called a dream :)
@@ministryofguitar LOL.
You and me both!
I don’t care what he talks about. His voice helps me to relax in the evening
Unintentional ASMR
I have a reverse uno card: EVH couldn’t afford a Strat so he went to boogie bodies and bought the cheapest off cuts that were for the bin. 30 years later and everyone wants to sell you a signature model/evh inspired guitar for $1000’s based on what he did because he sounded awesome 😎 so for me it makes no difference
basically what happened with the mustang thanks to cobain
Leo Fender chose woods based on availability. Gibson chose Mahogany because of luxury. Tone was never in the equation.
@@luistijerina Leo also hated distorting amps but Marshall saw how it was popular and embraced it, just like some people can care about what different woods happens to sound like, when they really care. I don't recommend caring that much, but it's understandable far beyond what the general consensus of the guitar internet says today. The most annoying thing is that people can't hear the hollow body sound. Even semi hollow ES335 have such a sound; now remember, even compared to identical measurements and hardware of similar era Gibsons.
EVH also stated that direct mount pickups sound better, so don't cherry pick too much with that guy. You should obviously have all of him, inventing potting of pickups for himself and all that.
@@luistijerina he could have used plywood...
Tonewood is a myth. Tone paint is where it’s at.
Are you sure it's not the directionality of the wiring?
@@dave5655
And don't forget the colour of the cables
We all know that tone is stored in the balls
I think the tone wood debate originated from acoustic instruments. On acoustics, wood affects the tone as you are building a speaker, the grain density affects how thin it can be as well how it need to be braced (affecting overall tone slighty)
Most guitar players are traditionalist, so they usually want OG woods. Think of Gibson, if it aint Mahogany, Ebony etc people complain.
Thing is, guitar builders are Carpenters by trade (technically). Meaning they have access to different species of woods such as rarer woods. Different woods require different finishing processes as well as come with different rarity levels. This increases the cost. How do you convince a guitar player to buy a guitar thats 40% more expensive than another with cheaper easier to work on woods? You tell them it has an unachievable tone..
Bang on the money!
It's why I respect manufacturers that use woods that are not tonewoods simply because of aesthetics. Buy a walnut guitar. It's pretty!
I'm very pleased the the algorithm gods led me to your channel. Subscribed.
Thank you
We as a guitarists notice the subtle differences between guitars more than the average Joe. The thing is to not get carried away with it all. Having a few decent guitars that make you want to play is more than enough. I love my Epiphone guitars. There's something punk about proudly playing Epiphone and Squier guitars. Cheers from North Carolina USA 🇺🇲🤘🎸
There’s nothing punk about being proud to play something produced via slave labor.
The problem is when Paul Reed Smith says that pickups are microphones: I really can’t believe that someone who achieved his success in the guitar world really doesn’t know how pickups work.
The problem with tonewood debate in electric guitars is, there is no reputable study to prove the point, and there is no way to viably replicate results. There is no "let's put a maple on that thing" that would yield replicable and predictable results each and every single time.
He meant that in a deep and philosophical way.
@@modernlondonmusic The pickups do not need air though, so how the guitar resonates is totally indifferent, that's the point.
@@ramencurry6672 If he really meant it like that, he wouldn't be comparing electric guitars to violins which are acoustic instruments. I played violin through high-school. Yes, the difference between different violins can be HUGE! But it's apples to oranges to solid body electric guitars.
@@modernlondonmusicExactly bogles my mind how people don't understand this!
I don't really like the sound of any guitar until i plug it into an amp and fx chain (boost, drive, delay, chorus) and tweak it to my liking its really has as much to do with the way the guitar responds under my fingers as what it sounds like to my ears, because of these factors the wood becomes a superfluous detail. Glen is always saying we don't pay enough attention to the speaker or the physical filter that converts the signal to air waves and after seeing the response graphs and hearing everything miced up i tend to agree. There is a channel on youtube by a fellow named jim lill that also creates great audio tests.
The bit from 6:09 - you've hit the nail on the head (in fact everything you're saying is IMO spot on). This whole cork-sniffing thing with this and that tonewood... yes, it makes a difference, but only a small amount. There ARE so many other factors that influence your tone. Same with amps - you can dial in a high gain amp to sound like another. Speakers are the biggest influencer by far.
I spent 25yrs playing live, most of that time with just one (fairly versitile) instrument. I never had one person after a gig come and tell me that I should have had a maple fretboard or mahogany body (as opposed to Rosewood and Japanese Ash) because my tone wasn't right. Recording - it is so straight forward to tone match or reamp, it really doesnt matter in the slightest what guitar you're using.
The bottom line - at least in my experience - is different guitars seem to make one play in different ways. I tend to play differently on a Tele than a PRS, or on my RG550, or Strat, or Les Paul. They seem to bring out different notes, phrases or ideas. However, once I've written a hook or phrase, I can play it on any guitar.
This whole tonewood thing seems to be given legs by bedroom guitarists who have never played a note live, someone selling one with 'skin in the game', or freaks like Joe Bonamasa.
Big factor of tonewood is that put on a good set of headphones so you cant hear the acoustic properties of the guitar itself. Suddenly wood means nothing
Very well explained. I read a book about this topic. I can't remember the title. I'll put it in a comment once I get home. You are absolutely right.
This is one of the better analyses I've seen. Excellent video!
Excellent insight into how perception works. I love your channel and your takes on things. Thanks
I believe wood and craftsmanship matters in the overall quality of the guitar but maple being brighter and rosewood being darker or warmer is dumb. Ever notice the the colors of those woods also match the tonal description? 😂😂😂😂😂 look these are electronic devices and the electronics and the placement of and the type of electronics effects the “tone”. Honestly, the most important part of your tone is the amp/speaker. The wood quality and its hardness/softness and how it’s dried is what matters in the wood. I’ve had 100’s of guitars and amps. With an eq pedal on my pedal board and a good amp I can get any sound out of any gear. It’s all marketing bs.
You could never get a crap guitar that sounds bad acoustically to sound great by tweaking your signal chain, you might improve it a bit though?
@@pharmerdavid1432 acoustic qualities on an electric means nothing. It’s an electric device. Saying the wood matters to “tone” on an electric guitar is akin to saying you got a better signal on one of those old big box wood televisions because the cabinet was made of oak instead of maple. The wood in and of itself means nothing to “tone”. How well the instrument is crafted and how well the wood work was done determines durability and playability, but not the tone. Sorry. Acoustic instruments are a completely different ball of wax though.
This is a brilliant talk. Thank you for offering lots of food for thought. I'm inclined to believe and certainly ponder many of your points. Well done!
SRV said without his #1 guitar he couldn't have done what he had done. So the psychology of playing certainly runs deeper than wood.
Your videos are almost ASMR at this point, I love having them on while I do housework. It's great food for thought that revolves around my passion, but applies to EVERYTHING in life. Keep it up, man! I see 100k subs coming soon!
As an old luthier I offer countless examples of clients that believed a change of pickups would solve problems with dead notes or wolf tones or whatever only to realize ( or not ) that the problem stemmed from inappropriate choices of body materials.
and that materials wood bee? ;)
I think wood choice affects acoustic guitars, I dont think it makes any difference on electric guitars.
Sure it does, my Les Paul is way heavier than my Tele
Nice guitars area made out of nice wood.
Merely a visual thing
@@WendigoSotomonte Ok, make one out of OSB in your garage
100% will be a piece of crap.
@@Cougar139tweak I actually made myself one out of a raspberry tree that got dried in my backyard. Just put some peavey raptor parts I had left from another guitar and the body of the raspberry tree. Sounds good anyway. Sounded even better and I changed the speaker of my amp.
@@nikolasaguilera3496 Raspberry wood is Deciduous and most deciduous trees are "Hardwoods" just check the Janka hardness, bet it drilled and carved good....unlike Pine is your Amp a Marshall or a Line 6? because we know it doesn't matter.....Wood only affects tone in Acoustic guitars but Trash wood is no fun to build with, regardless of tone
@@Cougar139tweak I have a 100 w marshall and I definitely agree that wood doesn't affect tone in non acoustic instruments. From what I could gather as info, raspberry wood was unstable to work with... That's the thing I could verify. I'm working now with guayubira...Suffering the same way hahahaha...
You made me spit out my drink. "Unless you're sitting there playing with yourself..." All in good fun!
I spit out my own drink during editing but decided to keep it in
The call is coming from inside the house!
The problem is that what you experience *is* your reality, even if others do not have the same experience.
I completely agree with you, context is everything. I'd wager there are live playing settings where some people will be affected by the subtle differences in their instruments.
Also, let's stop telling other people they should experience what we do. What's most important is how it affects us, not them.
Great video, as always.
The subjectivity of one’s individual experience will boggle the mind . No pun intended
Glenn said it best when he said "You're listening with your eyes". That's why I NEVER look at a guitar during an A-B test. Jim Lill's tests are what really drove it home for me. At least in the context of solid body electrics, an acoustic is of course a different story
I think you’re the Jordan Peterson of the guitar community. I’m enjoying your high level discussions. Where did you go to school?
Thank you. That is a major compliment though I do not fully agree with all of Dr Peterson’s views. I studied in NTU, Singapore
@@ministryofguitaryou lost me by not agreeing with Dr Peterson’s stands. 😆
@@kalkidasofficialhe sucks dude. He used to be a credible research but got bought out by conservative think tanks
Dawg you may think that a compliment but Jordan Peterson is not a smart man with anything noteworthy to say. You need to look elsewhere.
@@kalkidasofficial Peterson is a remarkably silly man and you are a fool to have fallen for his grift.
Fort Nine did a motorcycle where he explained why car drivers don’t see motorcycles and the neural science was very similar . Most of what we think we see, is just the brain filling in the gaps in our perception. Sometimes there’s a motorcycle in one of those gaps and we legitimately don’t see it
I’ve been playing for the last 28 years, I’ve owned more than 350 guitars and I have about 30 right now, from indonesian to us boutique guitars, same for amps and cabs... and after debating with myself, my friends I come to the conclusion that I stoped caring about tone. After all of this time, playing, gigging, recording I just know what works for me and I can do whatever I want within a larger gear boundary. It is great to plug a Hamer USA through an ENGL amp in a EVH 412. Yeah it is, but I can dial a jackson indonesia using a kemper player in studio monitors, or a jet city amp in a home made cabinet with v30s. What I can’t get away is a OK guitar, in a OK amp in a cab that does not suit my style there’s no EQ in this world that will allow me play heavy metal in a jensen speakers from a fender combo. I use to rehearse in a room equiped with fender combos, so I carried a nice high gain preamp... it sucked. Wrapping up: using your tone stack my compensate for different guitars but will NEVER compensate a shitty speaker. Regarding some guitars being more bassy, trebly: I like it, it makes me happy and I will EQ it in the amp to my taste.
"I didn't know about Tonewood from 2004 to 2015" - this is proof by market. If something makes a real difference, the market reflects it. No one questions alcaline batteries or quartz watches: they last longer, they are more precise and manufacturers had to upgrade when the new technology appeared. This never happened with wood in solid body guitars. Wood only became a divisive spec point after the Internet made it possible for masses of believers to share fantasies.
I agree with you here.
The "big debate" is getting a bit frustrating to listen to, to be honest...
Your matter of fact way of wording all this is a relief to hear!
It's not really fun and stimulating anymore for me to hear one side just bash at the side.
Hearing someone talk a little sense about the subject is refreshing!
I think this is my favorite guitar channel now...
That is very kind of you to say. Appreciate it
The difference between you and a wine taster is that a wine tasters are trained to be able to blind test these differences. Paul Reed Smith and other tone wood people have yet to put that to the test.
Very interesting. I agree that our brains are doing that,also I believe in tonewoods.
Another variable is that we mostly listen with our eyes and assume in advance great differences in tones due to various tonewoods.
Yes that is definitely a factor. The game changer, for me in my understanding of this, was the predictive nature of the brain in informing our experience and filling in gaps, instead of actually processing reality, to save processing power
@@ministryofguitar that's complete nonsense.
@@ministryofguitar actually, these dogmas of yours are exactly the thing you are accusing people of.
Watch the video on RUclips titled "Where Does the Tone From An Electric Guitar Come From?".
It's something like that. Watch the END PORTION and have your mind totally blown. "Tonewood" is a _complete_ myth and it's all imaginary. The wood makes ZERO difference in the tone of an electric guitar. It's all the electronics and the strings.
Always got better sustain with mahogony. Other than that, I believe tone is just a combination of pickups, amp, and the player's touch. Emphasis on the touch.
All I know is wood is directly proportional to price. The Guju in me is not fooled by that!
And more expensive things are always better! Even when they aren't! I'm sure the renovations are proving that out. ;)
IMO, every component makes a difference on the sound, but to different extent. As the strings vibrate and are connected to neck and body of course the properties of these components also have an effect on the string vibration, therefore on the pickup magnetic field and therefore on the sound.
BUT of course these effects are much smaller than pickups, speaker etc..
my only gripe with the tonewood "debate" is that full on tone wood deniers seem to think that guitar or bass is strictly an electronic instrument, but the acoustic properties of an electric guitar matters alot! mostly getting a good setup makes a big difference but certain guitars are just acoustically dead no matter what strings, electronics or hardware are on them, almost like the wood is a sponge soaking up the sustain and tone, while others are louder and you can feel the resonance while it sits on you lap, which at bedroom volumes or using amp sims makes very little difference but when playing loud enough thru a real amp to get feedback it makes ALL the difference! I also think the neck profile can have an effect on sustain which is why I seem to prefer chunkier necks, while my own experience is biased to what i have been able to play over the years i couldnt possibly come to the conclusion that wood doesnt matter, its not as simple as one species of wood sounding one way and another species sounding another way but it really does make a difference, physics and acoustics still matter
"Tonewood" if understood as simply good wood to build wooden instruments from, it is true. Hardwood drills better carves better, and is much less likely to shrink or warp, that's why they use it for good furniture....note I say Good, not all...Same goes for Cabs. Cabs made of OSB, become a crumbly mess in humid climates.
Nice wood makes nice guitars...99% of guitars are made of good woods, even knockoffs.
Cabs are more like acoustic instruments, material might actually matter.
It's well documented that the original Fender Esquires/Teles were pine and only later changed for appearance, nothing to do with tone. The original Les Pauls were supposed to be mahogany tops but Gibson reversed it by accident according to Les himself. I don't think wood having tones is a myth,but i think it's alot more coincidental than many would believe.
Great video. For me, it's all about playablility. Neck profile, weight, tuning stability and the vibration I feel when I play. If it feels good, that guitar will sound as good as your fingers can play it.
Be it humbucker, single coil or wood construction. I have one Strat that gives me all I need for any type of music. Also, two acoustics. One for gigs the other with no electronics. The one for gigs has great electronics, but it's a "box" if not amplified. It feels great in the hands, however.
Interesting video! It's strange that sometimes I prefer guitars that cost less than my most expensive and well made instruments, but I can also suspect it is a psychologycal aspect where you link the gutiar looks with what makes you feel good. Could you make a video about guitar setup and how it will affect tone, also shares some preferences on how you setup your own guitars, neck relief, action, pickup height, strings, etc. Thank you!
i build electric guitars 100% by hand, no CNC just powertools, and i mainly use reclaimed and recycled wood, anything i can get my hands on, and most of the time they are reinforced with epoxy when needed. the way i look at it, as long as you use hard woods you will make a fine guitar. its mostly a personal preference, some people like the open pores of mahogany, some people like the tight figuring of maple, some people like the weight of ash, but ive built guitars out of pine and kiln dried cedar and ive noticed no difference sonically between any of them. some of the best guitars ive ever played were made entirely out of composites like carbon fiber glass and whatever they make aristides out of. tone wood is a thing with acoustic guitars, some woods resonate differently than others. but ive also played martins made out out of masonite and they sounded fine.
Great words & I myself who is a session guitarist & yes I play live a lot & studio a lot & this has been my life for over 45 years!!!!!
Now my no1, Guitar (electric in standard tuning which means it's what I use for 98% of what I do!!) is basically a frankenstien (I've named her Phyliss) & it is a 1978 Tokai strat knock off body which is made of Poplar. The neck that is fitted now is from a 2000 Charvel So Cal which was made in Japan. This neck has a Pau Farro fingerboard on a maple shaft & now stainless steel jumbo fretwire 6100 size.
The bridge is a Floyd Rose none fine tune (I love Brad Gillis ex Ozzy Osbourne, Night Ranger) & the pickups are Dimarzio Paf Pro bridge, Dimarzio HS2 middle & a Sustainiac neck.
The guitar has no locking nut as I took influence here from Guthrie Govan but I used a Brass nut which what I prefer!!!! The tuners are Gotoh hight compensation locking.
The potentiomiter's are Bourn's 500k (Yngwie J Malmsteen signiture from Seymour Duncan) & I string up with Ernie Ball 00.10" - 00.52" & it's so stable & that's because I set it up properly & the bridge sits level but as it sit's above the body, it gives me a tone up on the G & D strings like a Gotoh 510 2 post does set this way!!!
I have many other guitar's which are PRS Custom 24's from 1987 - 2024 (I have over 20 of them) & many Fender Stratocaster's from 1963 - 2020 & Telecaster's & Gibson's plus many other high brands such as Tom Anderson, Suhr & Haynes (I'm English & this brand build AMAZING guitar's!!!!)
But the best sounding guitar too me is my Franlenstein (Phyliss) & too many luthier's it is a pile of junk!!!! But my opinion is whatever feels best too the individual is what they should use & not be taken in by what these like Paul Reed Smith & the like say, "if it's not made of this high grade Mahogany, High grade Maple, High grade Brazilian Rosewood & whatever is all you should use is utter rubbish!!!
Sir Brian May built his guitar (with his Dad) out of what was pretty much scrap wood, Junk & Block Board (old fashioned ply wood!!) with vaneer added. Now Brian May sound's AMAZING!!!
The late Edward Van Halen made his name on a guitar he put together himself using what was a body & neck which were listed as second's which means rubbish!!! How good did Edward sound on those records he used this guitar!!!?
I myself use M2 Marshall 50 watt & 100 watt Super Lead head's (none of mine are reissues!) & a simple pedalboard of old Boss, Ibanez & TC Electronic pedal's. Old Pro Co RAT & Old Marshall Guv'nor etc....... But zillions use these too!!!!!
But whatever works for you is what is the best for you & it doesn't have too be a high priced boutique instrument!!!!!!!
You said this too!!!
And to add to the discussion, the original "Golden Guitar" (that is: a standard hollowbody guitar lined with gold conductive paint inside it, to say nothing about the gold hardware -- all used to reduce electronic interference from the pickups and built-in fuzz and piezo)/Regvlvs guitar played by Sérgio Dias of Os Mutantes was made of _plywood_ -- to be more specific, _Pine!_ He used that on the first 5 LPs (only switching to the later mahogany version in '73 after Rita Lee left and they started work on _O "A" e o "Z"_ in '73 or so). So the wood makes _no_ difference.
The 513 is the guitar that got me to break my very firm 24 fret rule.
Twice. (Also no one I've told about them understands how insane it is to have an entire neck made out of Brazilian rosewood)
I have experimented a lot comparing ELECTRIC guitars, pickups etc, not in the room but when the signal is recorded... in my experience, wood affects the way the strings behave, but its very minimal so it doesn't matter. Bridges, tailpieces and saddle make more differemce... thats my experience anyway
Bridges and saddles and nuts matter for sure
Well, I believe PRS believes himself, but he is also a sales man, so he has a clear agenda.
The debate about tone wood in electric guitars is not whether Mahogany sounds different than Maple or any other wood. The debate is about whether this difference is worth the extra cost of the product.
It seems to me that putting all the variables together - wood type, wood quality, pickups, electronics, bridge type, frets material etc. Those still can be fine tuned with an equalizer and won’t make much difference in a recording or in a live show. There are so much more variables outside your guitar that can affect the tone, that the guitar variables are diminished almost entirely anyways.
In acoustic instruments however..
I would say tone woods are about 90% important for acoustic guitars... and about 30% important for electric guitars (with potted pickups)... if the pickups were unpotted, and thus slightly microphonic, I'd say about 40%.
It seems like the material (wood etc) is mainly about density differences and vibration absorption.
Awesome breakdown. You just put all my feelings on what’s tone wood is and isn’t into words and for that I give u two huge thumbs up. I sware tone wood has an effect because I highly lean towards liking ash guitars for their articulate tone but I also whole heartedly believe it dosent matter when I’m jamming with my amps to a song and I’m practicing. Both ideas live in my head and make perfect sence in the right context but both ideas are totally against each other because in my head I feel either tone wood matters and it would affect every lick I play or it dosent matter and pickups, amps and speakers are the only varieable but thanx to you I see that the context matters so much more and both ideas can be true in the right situations. Awesome awesome video bravo
the problem is, when people say electric guitar wood sounds different they never account for the difference in pickups, bridge type, bridge material, nut material, pickup height, scale length, action etc. The true test would be take the exact same style of guitar made from two different types of wood and swap every single component and see if theres a difference. I'd love to see Paul Reed Smith put his money where his mouth his a do a double blind test and see if he could accurately tell a difference from a high end "tone wood" and balsa wood, and do it consistently a few times to rule out just being a good guess. To be fair, when you play guitar acoustically wood does matter, so theoretically the wood of the electric guitar *SHOULD* matter, the problem is, does it change the tone enough to be detectable. There's about 10 other variables that change your tone more drastically that are much cheaper. Also, PRS has a vested interested is selling tone wood, thats not saying he doesn't believe it (confirmation bias) but could he, in a blind test, accurately pick out which guitar is the tone wood guitar over and over again?
I think most of the wood stuff makes little to no difference and that it's mostly the hardware and pickups and possibly density of the wood, though the stability of the wood is important. No matter what anyone says about Paul (and I have some critiques too), he makes a really well built instrument.
Very interesting analysis. You could distinguish between frequency spectrum and tone. The latter is a subjective human experience . The former is a description of the objective physical reality ceated by some basic physical processes, which is actually very well understood : the vibrating string is a textbook example of a differential equation with boundary values, the pickup is a simple coil detecting small magnetic field changes, the tone knob is a simple RC circuit etc. Next there are some second order effects : at the nut and bridge we have imperfect Dirichlet boundary conditions, when the string vibrates and pulls on the bridge and nut, it slightly deforms the guitar body and neck, and this is where the vibration leaks to the body and neck, and the elastic properties of the wood come into play.
I love how you framed it. And there is a false equivalence of frequency and tone which people want to use to have a scientific way of assessing tone
Different woods have different density. Density affects playing attack. Which causes YOU to play differently.
, which in turn causes the sound to be different.
Why the pings?
on the wood topic I'd be more concerned about moisture levels, dead notes and wolf notes. Topics rarely touched (ie warped necks), maybe everybody have perfect guitars...
Stealing the fundamental of a lead notes is the greatest sound of guitar. My favourite floating trem strat is so resonant that on sustained lead notes most focus around B flat in two octaves you get loss of fundamental or 2nd harmonic and is left with this upper harmonics focus of this Dewine Vowel sound as I call it. It's worse for bas though. Fenders have it around C. My Jazz is close but not exactly on C# which is great. You hear all this acoustically and it matters live as well. It also makes my play different searching for the devine Vowel.
Alder and Ash Strats sound different, they just do, as do ebony/rosewood/maple fretboards
In my opinion PRS knows better but pushes it to sell more expensive guitars and to justify higher pricing.
the thing is... if you just play guitar for any stretch of time, swap parts, compare guitars.... you won't need to ask if wood makes a difference. I hope people take this idea for truth and start playing plastic... let's get the value of great instruments down.
They have been doing so since the seventies.
Kramer made guitars with plastic acryllic bodies and aluminium necks,- they sounded fantastic.
Great video. My strat can sound amazing one day but ok the next. Its not the guitar, its me. What we put into the guitar and believe about the guitar will affect tone . If the 1960s/70s is the benchmark for tone, we must remember, Clapton,Hendrix, Page, etc played what ever they could get there hands on at the time. Today we have an incredible amount of options and customisation. Ive owned a custom shop strat, it was beautiful and compared to my Vintera at the time,sounded better but i couldn't justify the extra $5,000 for that little bit extra
I've seen/ heard things that make me think that tone wood has an effect on electric guitars. I've seen/heard things that leads me to believe it doesn't. I've never heard 2 guitars that plug in and sound exactly alike. Even ones with identical specs. As long as scale lengths, pickups, placement/height of said pickups, and action/setup are all the same The differences in tone can always be tweaked to make the instruments sound pretty much identical. I've never met someone that doesn't eq their rig. and there are so many variables between the note being picked, and the speaker projecting the sound, that placing all the difference on the wood is not really a wise conclusion to jump to in my opinion. Variance in winding of your pickups, and gauss of the magnets will change tone. Even 2 pickups with "identical" specs will not sound 100% the same, especially if they are hand wound or scatter wound. the tolerance of the pots and the tone caps can also vary from part to part. So "identical" circuits can vary quite a bit in overall resistance and capacitance. Most of the time this difference though is negligible once you tweak your eq. The point i'm making is that there are so many variables that pointing to just the wood is not a sensible argument in my opinion.
That's why every time I get a new guitar it always sounds better then the old ones.
Vine sommeliers can’t distinguish 10 or more vines, they simply known which vine suits what meal. Maybe if the sommeliers had only 10 vines in his shop, then he might tell which is which, but when he shall tell 10 out of 100 he will fail.
With my solid body guitars, my “most resonant” ones have tremolo springs in them, the resonance being unintentional. One of my favorites, a Squier Sonic Stratocaster, the body is acoustically dead. The vibrations don’t run through the body in any significant way but it’s one of my best sounding guitars. Stop the cork sniffing and plug in your guitars when you try them.
Well said! Anybody can have the sound/frequencies tested & even if the numbers are the same it will sound however each individual thinks it will. It's a sense of hearing & each persons hearing ability is different. I have hearing aids & forgot to put them on the other day. I was playing guitar & the mids were gone. I immediately realized I was missing my hearing aids, put them on & everything sounded as it should. There's a reason so many guitars sound the way they do, different wood, body shape, pickups, weight, etc. A Telecaster Deluxe may have 2 humbucker pickups but it doesn't sound the same as a Les Paul.
A double hum tele sounds EXACTLY like a les paul, stoo talking shit, you are just assuming things 😂
@@WendigoSotomonte 😂
@@WendigoSotomonte Not to me it doesn't, I still hear the telecaster the pickups/microphones are amplifying.
@@pharmerdavid1432 exactly TO YOU , a subjective opinion , YOUR point of view , not a well meassured recording and a displayed graph with frequency ranges. Your ears arent magical to listen " things" or " subtile changes " , nor the pickups or wood have magical attributes that you can hear . Stop praying to non existing saints.
I bet you shit your pants inna blindfolded guitar tone test.... go try one on here on YT
I’m a bassist, but I’m tempted to make business selling “tone straps” to guitarists lmao I’m at the point where I’m convinced you could fool most guitarists that you can make tone air in cans that will make them sound better when sprayed on the strings before you play.
Tone air cans sounds like a great snake oil business idea
I've said this a long time: both sides in the debate are correct. The player, sitting over the guitar, even if plugged in, hears the acoustic tone mixed with the electric, and can hear the effect of the wood. The electric signal negates most or all of that, so listeners who hear the guitar only through speakers will are unlikely to hear a difference, and less so with gain.
so far im inclined to feel like the neck affects the sound more than one may think......so far
It is common for same-model guitars to sound different. Whether or not they have the same body wood species. It does not follow that a heard difference is due to the body wood. You say you and your friends can hear the sound of the different woods. But really all you can hear are different sounds. There are literally dozens of things that have been measured in real guitars to explain sonic differences. See the independent work of Fleischer, Zollner, and Pate. And the body wood isn't really one of those measured influences. So unless wood species was so dominant that it always over-rode those other influences - in the same sonic way - there is no way for a player to pinpoint a particular "wood sound". Guitar manufacturers have no objective means to control those other influences. None even make the complex measurements to discern what they are in a given guitar.
Ask yourself why Paul Reed Smith's arguments for solid-body tonewood are so poor. "Violins" ? Seriously ? If he knows so much about how guitars work, wouldn't he have much better proof for solid body tonewood ? Luckily you don't need to fully understand guitar physics to build great guitars. But you do need to fully understand guitar physics to discuss the objective evidence regarding tonewood.
You need to watch this RUclips video; Tested: Where Does The Tone Come From In An Electric Guitar? - Jim Lill
McGurk Effect : we hear what we see.
Tone is the perceived audio which is subjective to each person ear/brain. But we cannot dismiss the objective science that different woods produce different midrange frequencies. Just plug in guitars and compare at the EQ ban spectrum on a DAW software.
Wood matters in electrics on two things: How it resonates and feels in your hands, and the weight you desire. Woods in an electric have next to ZERO effect on the tone coming out of an amp.
Unless, of course you are not playing with tons of distortion through a pedalboard with the footprint of a Volkswagen. Then it can actually be heard....by people who have not blown out their hearing. I don't mind that you don't hear it. I do mind that you criticize those of us that do.
@leewhittube Les paul didn't invent the first solid body electric because he thought it sounded better, he was sick of dealing with feedback. Leo Fender didn't start using rosewood on his fretboards because it had a different "tone". He did it because he didn't like how dirty the maple fretboards on his instruments looked on TV after the artists played them over time and the finish started wearing off. These stories about different woods having a severe impact on tone is all myth and lore. Just another thing to hook mediocre guitar players into buying an instrument they claim will be their Excalibur because it has a $900 maple top on it and PRS claimed it actually SOUNDED better, instead of selling it for its pristine craftsmanship and playability.
Tonewood exist if you're using an acoustic guitar
in electric guitars it doesnt matter which wood you choose of cause.. you can use plywood or whatever yxou like to use. But when it comes to acoustics its all about the topwood....
PRS is a businessman. He does what he needs to make money. This includes marketing, foremost. People believe all kinds of crazy shit.when it comes to guitars.
I think a lot of what Glenn does is just tells kids what they want to hear. He will make a whole video claiming there is no difference between tube amps and solid state amps. If someone points out an edge of break up type of situation he will just say “who cares about edge of break up? This a metal channel”. So yeah in his specific example of high gain metal tones in a mix, you can’t hear a difference and he just hand waves away other types of music. So maybe a more accurate statement would be there is not huge difference in tube and solid state amps when playing with high gain, dropped tuning in a mix. That doesn’t mean that overall there is no difference.
The problem with tonewood debate in electric guitars is, there is no reputable study to prove the point, and there is no way to viably replicate results. There is no "let's put a maple on that thing" that would yield replicable and predictable results each and every single time.
In the scientific world, something is proven if you can REPLICATE tangible results every single time. But in tonewood, especially electric guitars, you can't. That's why people dismiss is as a myth.
It would rather be more practical to address tonal problems with EQ's pedals, and pickup changes than obsessing over whatever the wood sounds on your electric guitar. If you run a Tubescreamer in your board, the Tonewood thing is frankly useless and moot at that point lol.
Have you seen Jim Lill video called "Where does the tone come from?
Gibson started putting maple caps on Les Paul guitars because it made them sound better, even though Les Paul himself preferred an all mahogany body - the reason original Les Paul Custom models didn't have a maple cap.
@@pharmerdavid1432 No, Gibson started using maple caps because of cost efficiency. Apart from that, maple is pretty to the eye in non solid colors. Also, soon les paul guitars started to be semi hollowed in a way to reduce weight, the cap lade it easy to hide. Tonewood and sound was a clever way to sell it.
@@pharmerdavid1432 they started putting maple caps because of the top in non solid finishes and the cost effectiveness of it. Stop believing everything that the marketing tells you- you're probably one of the guys who buy Gibson's Cleaning product to retain "tone". Lol
There are scientific studies that show that the brain fills in much of what we perceive visually but i feel the ears are far more honest . This could explain why digital imaging is welcomed while digital music is shunned.
even if we have 2 of the same guitars there is diffrenses in the value of the electronics that change the sound
A study on this subject is being done right now I believe. So we can finally end this discussion.
I've never bought the tonewood debate for solid body electric guitars. It's the pickups, strings and whatever you plug in to that are creating almost all of the sound.
For acoustic guitars tonewood is definitely important but that is mostly down to the top wood and how it's braced.
Every change in wood type or shape of solid body guitars change the wave form, which is measurable according to Jason Lollar, so saying tonewood or shape doesn't matter is an opinion based on ignorance. Not everyone can HEAR the difference in the changed wave forms, but some can.
A large part of the problem that so called "tonewood deniers" have in recognising the effects of solid body instrument materials is that the debate is centred around a percieved elete collection of tonewoods.
I don't think that anybody would deny the influence of materials and there physical properties in the sound of an acoustic instrument.
The raison d'etre of solid body instruments is that you can play bloody loud without too much feedback and colouration from crosstalk with the environment. That is the environment of the string is isolated by larger impedence mismatches with the body.
That said it is just ignorant and silly to believe that materials don't alter the result , timbre and ADSR.
A while back Gibson brought out a line of guitars made from an “engineered wood product.” They were called the Sonex line. How come we’re not seeing the Gibson Historic Sonex Guitars being reissued these days? Maybe because those guitars sucked. Around the turn of the century there were the Switch guitars, constructed of “acoustically-tuned foam” with a rigid fiberglass shell. Where are they now? I don’t see musicians and collectors trying to buy up as many as possible of this defunct product line.
Quite a few RUclipsrs are acting like they’re out there to “rescue” us poor innocent victims from evildoers like Paul Reed Smith who are deceiving us into buying overpriced guitars built from rare and fine woods. There is this one guy who regularly posts on several guitar forums and he constantly rails against Baby Boomers and their preference for fine looking guitars made from beautiful wood. It turns out that this guy sells “boutique” pickups that he winds himself! Last time I checked he wanted $600 apiece for his PAF replica humbuckers that consist of plastic, magnets and wire just like mass-produced pickups.
I believe that quite a few of the people online trying so hard to debunk the role of wood selection and construction methods are pickup winders trying to get you to replace perfectly functional mass-produced pickups with overpriced boutique units.
"tonewood" only matters in an acoustic.
But the picture you showed is a color picture. The lines are different colors, and they are in the picture, therefore it is a color picture.
Sure the wood effects the resonance, anything the guitarnis made out of does this. But because it's unpredictable (when comparing a block of wood to block) thus it is pointless to discuss
This debate could probably be settled with a blind test. You would need quite a few people who believe in tonewood. As a preliminary, get 20 people in a room. In a separate room a professional player unbiased with no opinion on the matter to play different guitars. Maybe throw in a couple of red herrings, say play the same guitar but tell people it's different. Have the people listening write down how they think the tone is different between sets and compare the results.
This argument is so childish and naive I cannot believe people are even having it
All tone is generated by the strings.
Try a guitar without strings.
The guitar is a modular system that delivers the information/vibrations of the string.
Strings are the most important element, other than your playing technique.
If it can affect how the string vibrates then it can affect the sound.
Anyway think the word is timbre not tone.
This whole issue is easily put to rest using scientific methods; Isolating only the wood, electronically measuring the frequencies, and finally blind AB comparisons. And no pickups are not microphones. They are magnets that produce a current when a metallic item is moved near them.
They have done that. Analysis can pick up a few differences in frequency but it's so small no one could realistically hear it and just sneezing at the tone knob will have a much bigger impact.
I like carbon fiber tone best.
if your going DI and using heaps of effects etc then you can make your guitar out of chipboard it will sound good
The materials used to create an electric guitar using magnetic pickups affects the tone - indirectly. I have seen the video of the fence board using Strat hardware that sounds like a Strat. Yes, it sounds like a Strat due to the nature of the pickups. The fence board has it's own set of resonant frequencies that add or subtract to the sustain or small (some would say negligible) differences between the board and the guitar that was stripped for parts.If 'tone' includes the vibrations of the instrument that are affected by the materials the instrument is made from then the concept of tonewood is not an illusion. If a plucked string quickly goes still and stops affecting the magnetic field of the pickup then the instrument will sound very different from one that has more resonant properties that prolongs/diminishes, augments the vibration of the strings and the magnetic fields of the pickups. The vast majority of the 'tone' is the nature of the pickups and a small, but important portion of the 'tone' is due to the nature of the machine itself. I saw another vid where the strings were strung between two work tables and a pickup was placed in a more or less normal position. It sounded like the guitar that the parts were taken from - but not 100%.
Only aspect that affect the sustain of an electrical guitar is how much of the string vibration is transferred through the saddle and the nut into the wood,- which kills instead of prolonging the amount of vibrations going back and forth the string BETWEEN the nut and saddle.
Vibration stays on the string - disturbance in magnetic field of pickup prolongs and sustain extends,- vibration gets transferred to wood through the nut and saddle,- sustain dies.
Believing any species of wood impacts the " tone" and sustain of an inductive electromagnetic system is fooling yourself,- and directly contradicts the basic operating principles of empirical physical/ mathematical science,- which is idiocy on your part.
You are too kind. Everything affects everything.
Each guitar in my collection sounds different, I have all kinds of different variations of builds and pickup configurations. I'll play one guitar, then throw on another. With my first couple of notes I immediately notice how the EQ has shifted, for instance the difference in EQ going from EMGs to PAFs or something, or that it hangs on my body differently and I'm picking in a different area. Subconsciously I make micro adjustments to my playing position and attack until the tone matches my expectations. I may play my Les Paul more light-handed near the bridge and dig into my Tele harder toward the neck. Secondly, I also know my exact amp, pedal, and compression settings to adjust to compensate for the change, I'll make these in literally seconds without thinking. Is the species of wood responsible for the shift of EQ? My answer is maybe though it doesn't matter because I end up EQ-ing my entire signal chain to compensate anyway, any tiny adjustment I make completely overrides what little difference the species contributes. I guess it would matter to the players that don't touch any EQ ever, use the exact same electronics, nut/saddle material and don't use any pedals. All they do is change the guitar. I'll concede that the player probably notices a difference in the room outside of a mix. Now record those guitars, and listen to the separate recordings a week later blindly A/B them. How much difference did the species make? It's nice to have a good, quality wood and finish just like it's nice when your furniture is made with fine wood because the experience is better.
Fully agree
Thank you. That was and excellent explanation of what tone wood really is.
Thanks. Appreciate the feedback
I think you've tried to overcomplicate something that is absurdly simple to understand as well as quantify in real data..... Resonance and sustain.... that's it... it's that simple.... different woods even different piece of the same species even from the same tree, can have difference resonant frequencies and sustain notes with unique characteristics. The resonance and sustainability if you will, determine what artifacts will remain in place, thus dictating that guitars unique tone. We can argue about phycological bias AFTER we've established the verifiable fact that every piece of wood is in itself unique and imparts changes to the tone of an instrument. The idea that "rosewood" sounds one way and "maple" sounds another in itself is an absurd suggestion, because every tree is different, and every section of a log can be different, so any time I hear wood referenced in a way that doesn't appreciate its individual nature, I'm inclined to then use that as a basis to discredit everything else being said after that point.
I was never fooled. And PRS’s specious arguments are an insult to intelligence.
I think Glenn Fricker may have initially made the mistake of not taking into account that a lot of non-metal people watch his show, but at this point he's probably tired of repeating it. Tonewood, and even pickups for that matter, don't make a whole lot of difference in the context of high gain, metal and metal adjacent music. He basically has no stated opinion on anything else. I'm neither a novice nor an expert and I'm just repeating what he says, but I don't find this at all difficult to believe. I think the broad lesson is that what you need should be determined by what you are trying to achieve.
Agree
Tonewood is irrelevant for electric guitars.
@@raven4442 It's a subtle difference that you may or may not consider important. It's a very low priority for me, personally.
Excellent video. Thank you.