You are the first person I've personally seen in video to bring up that the original games were advertised as prequels. I was there during these advertising and thought I was just misremembering. Just like Link's Awakening is a sequel to A Link to the Past - always was. They only reason they swapped the Oracle games and Link's Awakening in the books is people kept saying The Hero of Legends died at sea XD.
So youre saying that it all exist but in the three timelines is how to interpret it. Oot to loz 2 are its own time and way later the lines converge and theres a missing "link" and 10k yrs going into like age of calamity > botw > totk?
@@Research_theTruth the timelines were already split once they made Windwaker. Twilight Princess added the third. Downfall - Ganon had the triforce and was sealed - that was since the 90s. The only thing I can think is that the timeline split degraded the triforce and also Hyrule. We even have Link between worlds where Loruel is falling apart because they destroyed their triforce. Windwaker - Hyrule was essentially destroyed and the triforce lost. Twilight princess - the full triforce is never seen again after either...and it's possible Wisdom was still with Midna. We don't know. Downfall timeline the triforce isn't destroyed, only hidden. My theory is somewhere (and it could be any timeline - I think it's downfall) the full Triforce was wished into the royal bloodline - which is why Zelda welds the whole triforce on her hand. This more than likely fixed the destruction of Hyrule from the timeline splits and merged them. It's a bit clunky - but that's my take.
I think it's fine if it has no DLC. If they think they've done everything for TotK that they wanted, they shouldn't milk by coming up with stuff. Rather, they should focus on the next game. I find it admirable, especially nowadays, that a dev says that they don't want to do DLC (yet, anyway), because they think they've made the game fun (enough). No DLC for the sake of it to make more money, as many, many AAA-studios do. Cutting up games, just to re-sell those chunks as DLC. And yes, I am glad that it's highly likely that the Zonai descending, and Rauru much later (re-)founding Hyrule, are events, long after any/all games of all any/all timelines.
Yeah I'd rather just accept the re-founding as being Fujibiyashi's intent and move on. Sure, he technically isn't saying it has to be, but this is probably the closest we'll get to an answer from him
We need to remember that Zelda is riddled with unreliable narrators but also that retcon is a thing. I’ve come to the conclusion that everyone (RUclipsrs and fans, not the in game characters) is right until told otherwise by the sources themselves. Nevertheless it’s a blast trying to piece together the story, even if we may never truly reach a reliable conclusion. It’s a “journey beats the destination” thing for me 😊
That's the best answer possible from Fujibayashi. No timeline wouldn't be interesting and knowing everything about the timeline wouldn't be interesting too. I don't even care if I get an official explanation in the end, theorizing the timeline is so fun
I'd like to think TotK has items from every timeline (ww Link shirt, TP Ganon sword, etc.) as a way to say "any of these timelines COULD have happened, but we don't know for sure." Maybe the lobster shirt is just a shirt with a story, maybe it actually happened, and that's open for us to decide. But they won't set one of them as official.
that's the option that makes the most sense, all of the events from the timelines predate ocarina of time, the banishment of the twilight took place before Oot, so the twilight would exist in all 3 timeline, along with termina, the ocean world, holodrum and so on, so, after thousands of years, every event that could happen, happened, let's say that a 100 years after Zelda 2 came the twilight invasion or vaati seal broke, the same for the adult timeline, after Spirit tracks came the twilight invasion or something else something like "timelines merging" would literally kill all life in the universe by the energy released, how would the universe decide which chunks of land come from which timeline? who gets replaced by which alternative version? is there any alternative versions to begin with? there could be a mix of totally unrelated people now fighting for having the same land, we would have deserts and lakes mixing due to the different changes in the landscape, there would be volcanoes materializing out of nowhere and killing billions of people, there would be people trapped inside structures that materialized at the wrong place and time, it makes no sense even with magic on the table
@@troloinkto Totally unrelated but I like that you brought that last part up. If you're familiar with MTG lore that's basically what the Phyrexians did. The effectively terraformed the world of Rath to look like the world of Dominaria then with all their troops, bases, ect in place teleported and fused the entire surface of Rath with the already existing surface of Dominaria with similar effects. Mass extermination on both sides as different terrains, buildings mountains, lakes, oceans appeared or disappeared as both worlds fused together.
Yes thank you I've said that for the longest. There was nothing wrong with the damn timeline before BoTW and ToTK, Eiji Aunouma just had to fuck it all up because he has no clue what he's doing anymore.
@@gensteps923 I don't think it's a case of him not having a clue of what he's doing. I think it's a case of him not giving a damn anymore. Yeah, I know it's not an improvement, but still..
Here's how I look at it. The developers definitely start with mechanics first, that isn't up for debate. At some point, when they feel the mechanic is developed enough, the writers have a clear idea how it's meant to relate to at least one other game. Most games have a clear connection to a game or group of games, but I don't think the writers hold fast to that story idea like it's an unchangeable rubric. Things change in development, and things like bug testing take precedent over interconnectivity. The story is never arbitrary, but I think the writers just aren't as religious about it as we are. And of course you have creative differences between writers. Miyamoto views things differently than Fujibayashi and Koizumi; they just don't all handle the games in the same way.
I love totk but it's story has frustrated me because it has like 3 things that need to happen be4 it can happen that haven't, ganon breaking out of the four sword and being killed in the child timeline, a cataclysm whiping out most of everything and the tinelines converging and the master sword being damaged to explain the rechargeing...
@@captianbacon Time gaps leave room for things to happen off-screen. Remember, games like Minish Cap and Skyward Sword hint at entire adventures we have yet to see.
Honestly the timeline is what makes zelda interesting I love the idea that all games you play matter and have a purpose and are connected in a grand scheme of things. Also love totk honestly I don’t want dlc (unless its free) the game is good as is, since when did we started wanting dlc for games now.
"since when did we start wanting dlc for games now" we want dlc because we enjoy playing through new content in games we enjoy. You make it sound like totk would be worse with dlc.
@@valistic7206Thing is Zelda games have never really needed DLC and I'm kinda glad that BotW at this point in time is the oddball when it comes to that.
My only sticking point for a refounding are the OoT Castle Town ruins on the Great Plateau, clearly built after Rauru's Kingdom. It *could* just be a visual reference but they're too similar for me to not note on its timeline and similarities. I know this isn't a timeline debate video I just couldn't resist lol, refounding is still likely the best solution. This just bothers me more than it probably should.
Ancient temples irl have designs described in holy texts and cultures focused on rebuilding those temples. It's possible for places of significance to be built with their predecessors in mind as a form of showing honor or homage.
These are definitely not OoT's ruins though. We know OoT Rauru built the temple of time before Hyrule Kingdom was established since he was around during the Era of Chaos. His version of the Temple of Time would've been seen on the Great Plateau in distant past cutscenes along with the castle at this point considering that OG Hyrule Castle was built intentionally next to the Temple of Time that we see in OoT (technically MC since it's supposed to be the same area though we never see the Temple of Time in game, it's there somewhere). Plus we know that the Temple of Time shown on the Great Plateau was used for ceremonies and events.
@@firionkaiser8291 Ah I knew I missed something. Thanks for that. Is it possible that historia (in a soft retcon) was referring to ToTK's Rauru and Temple of Time? I need to read HH again.
@@cato3277 Definitely not since the Interloper War mentioned in TP was the war during the Era of Chaos, OoT Rauru created the Temple of Time after the Interlopers were sent to the Twilight Realm and created the only known gateway to the Sacred Realm where the Triforce was now being held via through the Master Sword as we see in OoT. I've been riding on the refounding theory for some time now but if you were to assume the distant past was actually before Minish Cap then it seems hardly make sense that Zonai Rauru wouldn't know about the Triforce or even the Master Sword at all. Plus the reasoning for Zonai Rauru's Castle being built is completely different from the one we see in most of the games.
"We have no plans at this time" - is the stock answer that is technically true even if the DLC is being actively worked on... Nintendo don't usually consider something "planned for release" until its well into development and they have a set release schedule in mind. If they are announcing a game that is early in development they tend to use the phrase "now in development." I think however there is a real possibility that TOTK will not see DLC as it sounds like Aonumas team has done everything they wanted to in the TOTK world... However I suspect they are not resting on their laurels - TOTK gave us the ancient hero's aspect a piece of armour that hints at a new design for a new Zelda protagonist... I think its possible that the Zelda team may be working on a zelda title set in hyrule's past and featuring this new character and that to tell that story and implement ideas they have they need to leave the TOTK/BOTW version of Hyrule behind.
I'm anticipating Tears of the Kingdom to get a decent expansion to come out with the new console next year especially if the rumours of significant graphical and performance updates for the 2022 and 2023 releases are to be believed, this would also explain the delay from 2022 to 2023, because you don't spend an entire year working on 'polish' for a completed title - must've been a lot of behind the scenes work on increasing the complexity for the future generation, while cutting back to ensure stability on the current generation
i think its fine that people still believe it happens before oot bc od the vagueness of everything but this is the first possibilitie he stated it is at least the one that comes to his mind first which makes me believe its the most likely answer. i also am glad that he said that bc some people in the community are so damn assholes about this whole thing. its so annoying honestly
I could have sworn that when BotW was in development, Nintendo stated that fans should consider playing Skyward Sword, due to references. When they said this, I clearly recall them also pairing it with showing images of some ruins + carvings on said ruins. Personally, I never played Skyward Sword prior to playing BotW or TotK, so I can't confirm any references to it. It is in my backlog though, so I'll be playing that one soon. Anyway, those who deny a timeline, while also ignoring that Nintendo advertises certain titles as sequels or prequels to others, are just... I just don't think they are paying attention.
The NDA is a very important point people need to keep in mind, there is only so much the Zelda Team are legally allowed to talk about which is why Aonuma and Fubiyashi are so vague so that is why I treat it as such.
It's pretty clear at this point, it's not a reboot, and it follows all the other Zelda games after some great merger, these statements and the others they have made pretty much settle it. My working theory is the Ancient Hero Aspect with what might be a Gerudo Born Hero 10,000 years ago will be the next game. We won't follow this Link and Zelda anymore, they are done, But ever since BOTW, that tapestry in Inpa's house SCREAMS unreleased Zelda game with the Ancient Hero. I've always felt that was true ever since I first saw it. Going back that far, they can do anything they want. They can use the same or updated engine on a new platform, and base overworld, but totally remake it for that era. Castle Town and many of the ruins can be present and whole, We will be the ones that split the dueling peaks, while existing places like Hetano and Luralin Village would be missing. We can have different powers, or some combination, and the game could play like a more traditional Zelda game while retaining some familiarity and they don't have to 100% re-invent the wheel. Those are 'possibilities'.
8:39 people say ganondorf is «misunderstood» and they want that ganondorf back, but in totk ganondorf he is a selfish king of the desert, who can control molduga
@mrbiscuits001 OoT's Ganondorf, a different incarnation entirely, outlined his goals in Wind Waker. He wanted to conquer Hyrule to claim a better home for the Gerudo. Also in the Japanese version of Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf's motivations were outlined a bit more. He saw peace as the path to weakness and hated the Zonai for making the world weak. Bit of a social darwinist which kinda fits for a man who grew up in the harsh unforgiving gerudo desert.
During BOTW, I thought more about it over the last few years and came to the conclusion that it was a soft reboot of the series. TOTK cemented that idea by introducing the earliest known King (assuming pre-MC), and pushing forward the idea of moving forward with the series by appreciating the games of old into an "era of myth". I want to see where they go next, but I would be surprised if they go backward into the old timeline and not forward ahead several hundreds of years.
Warning: Wall of text follows. It's not a rant though. When it comes to Japanese storytelling relying on subtly, I tend to agree. Western stories even have a different structure that originates in those nations that deviates from the 3 act structure. They are often more character focused, and they also don't require a central conflict. That said, for as much as I love BOTW and TOTK; I think There are some elements of the narrative that are way, way too weak to do justice to the story they are trying to tell. I know this is a bit off topic from the timeline; but hearing the director talk about how he doesn't do things randomly, while there are these massive, unfun, broken plot-holes in TOTK, it gives me pause. I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Western audiences want narrative lore spoon-fed to us. There are plenty of vague, open, and subtle Western stories. I think it's more that we want certain elements of the story defined. For example, take a look at great Western fantasy like Lord of the Rings. If you read just that novel, we don't know much about what Sauron is. He's just some malevolent entity. He gets expanded on in The Silmarillion; but that just introduces new mysteries and subtle stories that require interpretation. And there are a ton of bits of narrative in that work that are just not spelled out. But, at the same time, we don't have to wonder about the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen. That is defined. We don't have to interpret the subtlety of the friendship between Samwise and Frodo; again, that is very clear. Tolkien didn't introduce elements into his story to muddy the waters on those interpersonal relationships. We don't have to wonder what the ring of power is, nor why it needs to be destroyed, nor why it needs to be destroyed in the location it needs to be destroyed. All of that is crystal clear. In a similar way, there are some really well defined plot points in games like Elden Ring, as well as the rest of the Souls series. There is a lot left to interpretation; or more like, there is a lot to discover. I don't think most of the story of these games is really about crafting our own narrative. It's got a defined plot, just not a clear plot. We have to find the story. To bring this back and not actually spend too much time on this essay (lol); there are so many story elements in TOTK that needed more to allow them to properly exist in the game without being giant plot-holes. For example, my biggest bugbear is Hateno. Why do none of the NPCs remember Link? I have seen endless theories as to why; and each of them have their own strengths and weaknesses. But they all have a LOT of really big weaknesses. And I think that's on the writers. They should have either explained that, or just not written the narrative in and around Hateno that way. I'm like 70% sure the reason they did, is to allow new players who've not played BOTW to "meet" those NPCs without having them overwhelmed by the events of BOTW. And that was a terrible idea. There are little problems like that all over the place, and I really wish they would stop leaning on "player interpretation" as an excuse for not properly fleshing out the story they are telling. Or rather, if subtlety is a balancing act; I think the current Zelda writers are falling on the side of too subtle. And I don't think that's a cultural thing. I don't need everything spelled out for me; but I would like there to be few things that seem more and more like giant plot holes the more I think about them. Thanks for coming to my TED talk lol.
I wouldn’t even say the main problem with TotK’s story is its subtlety, but rather its inaccuracy. The plot isn’t all that vague, your average player will get the gist. It’s a game created to be accessible to children after all (which is not me saying that children don’t understand complex storytelling, more that they aren’t as media literate as adults who’ve just experienced more media due to existing for a longer time). There’s just so many elements of the story that contradict the game that it’s meant to be a direct sequel to. Why do only certain NPCs remember Link? Sidon f.e. clearly remembers you but why not, as you said, the people of Hateno? Even disregarding the events of BotW it’s weird, Zelda literally lives in Hateno so one would assume Link frequents the town (and presumably Link lives there too though that’s not been confirmed). Robbie also lives in Hateno, did Link never visit him inbetween BotW and TotK? The game seems to not think so. Also why does no one seem to remember the Calamity or the world-changing events of BotW? Impa is like the only person that has dialogue about the Calamity while the rest of the world has collective amnesia about it. Where’s all the Sheikah tech? Where are the Divine Beasts? “It’s a mystery” being the only provided explanation for its disappearance is just… sloppy. It took them years to make this damn game, it’s not a big ask for them to just have some level of consistency in the world-building between the two games, or even within just TotK on its own.
Small rant: We can immediately eliminate botw and totk from the adult time line because the flood in wind Waker (this is assuming this hyrule founding part in the past is before Minish Cap) so it’s either the down fall time line , or Child timeline being after A link between worlds (I think I always forget the order of the downfall timeline) or Four Sword adventure I’m putting my money on ending the Child timeline
@@kayden2119 We kind of do though. So the royal bloodline ends with Rauru and Sonia and Zelda is related to them by...? Zelda has Rauru and Sonia's power because they joined their blood so logically there must be an heir. The lack of any mention of this heir in game is a major plot hole. Not really something you just go "oh of course there's a child. But they're not important enough to talk about, they just CONTINUE THE ROYAL BLOODLINE" Ancient Aspect you could maybe let slide, but having 2 games that only hint at them is a little bit of a disappointment.
@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 You are thinking way too deep about this. You want a whole dlc just to say one sentence about some kid. You gotta learn not to be so obsessive over this kinda stuff lmao does not seem healthy
I still think it's as simple as, yes there is a timeline, but it is being told through legend, and details get blurry through the retellings. We do this all the time in the real world, events that existed hundreds of years apart will get lumped together in one era, because we don't have much context. Every game is a story being told by someone after the fact. I do think the timeline split was a pretty unnecessary wrench in the gears. I prefer the idea that people just collectively got details mixed up and remembered things wrong. "The Great Flood? No, that's a myth, that Link's family had just moved to an oceanic climate by then, and brought stories about Hyrule with them."
I still think they embraced the timeline to help skyward sword sell a billion copies. Yeah there’s a few direct sequels but it’s so obvious from the content in these games that consistency in storytelling does not matter to them nearly as much as their gameplay gimmicks. And I think that’s true for a lot of Nintendo’s IPs. Souls games have better stories because the writers actually care about telling them. The subtlety is separate
OH SHIT maybe BOTW/TOTK is the game that occurs after anytime Hyrule falls! so in each timeline if hyrule and its people either fall to ganon, evil, natural disasters, war, etc. hylia buts in to "save" the kingdom by keeping some hylians alive and eventually sending down zonai w secret stones. Basically making Zonais these angels/aliens/whatever the hells the cleanup crew of the gods to get hylians back on their feet protecting the triforce from evil or whatevs. And maybeeee (tho this is a stretch) thats why every zonai device has a little broom on it cus they are the literal janitors for the gods' messes. lol Regardless, I think theres a pretty good chance zonai are the equivalent of the world's fairy in a bottle where they come down and undo all the fucked up shit and then die and go back to where they came from. Plus there is plenty of religious parallels if u wanna dive into it (sheep and sheppards and all that)
I think that there are two extreme ways to look at the timeline: 1. These games were always planned to fit perfectly into the timeline as if the storywriter of the first game was omniscient of all future games. 2. The timeline is just made up and really has no bearing on these games. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. As you have stated, there is a certain order... but at the same time, the Zelda series is a series in which the Lore has been expanded in many different ways. If I recall correctly, there was a quote by one of the creators in the past who said that they really focused on making each game it's own thing. The way I understand it is that each new game is created as it's own story but also has a placement. Since the timeline was created, it seems that they have gone to greater efforts to tie each new game to the games that precede it. As the Lord expands, we sometimes find things in previous games that don't seem to add up. While some of these things may have explanations that are provided... some may simply be a matter of not considering every angle of a fictitious world. So, in these cases, we come up with theories to try to explain the inconsistencies. In these cases, there likely is no "official answer" as the inconsistency was either an oversight or something that they didn't care enough about to provide an explanation. There are still many things I am thinking about with regards to the timeline... 1. If Rauru and Sonia came long after the other games (except BOTW), that would likely mean that they are descendents of prior Zeldas... why do they look so different? 2. If Demise was created by Ganondorf + Secret Stone, then how did he exist in Skyward Sword (seemingly before)? 3. Tears of The Kingdom seems to suggest that the Zonai precede the Sheikah... but wasn't Impa on Skyward Sword a Sheikah? 4. If the Zonai were considered god like and the 3 "gods" that created life on Hyrule have the same names as the 3 immortal dragons, is it possible that these were originally god like Zonai that later engaged in draconification? I am trying to get away from my view that TOTK memories precede Skyward Sword. There may be answers to these things, but I guess there is a lot that we don't know. But then again, you suggested that we may not be able to take every statement made (such as statements by Rauru) as Gospel truth... so that opens a lot of doors of possibilities for how we interpret the lore.
They don't do the story half hazard, they just tell it in-game half hazard and expect fans to piece together excuses for their stories to still function. Yes, Zelda rhymes. But having Demise be reborn as Ganondorf out of the Gerudo over and over again is bullshit. There's a reason Ganondorf kept coming back in all those different timelines. He was sealed, not killed. This is the first time they've had Ganondorf reincarnate as a new Ganondorf born of the Gerudo. Many Zelda games follow a cohesive timeline. But TotK breaks with the tradition in many ways. There are no references to the events or technologies present in BotW even. TotK has a timeline that functions fully standalone. The fact that there are no remnants of shieka tech at all, the existence of the sky Islands which had no presence at all in the prior game and didn't rise up after the previous game, Ganondorf's gloom having no ties or reference to malice or reflection on his appearance as the beast he had become in the first game, it just doesn't fit well. Not without ignoring a ton of the worldbuilding in BotW. I mean, why are the Divine Beasts not being monitored and utilized by new pilots to protect their regions, or shown to have been broken in the intro of TotK? Sure, it's not "boring" in the sense that you have to put a ton of work into it to make the story make in-world sense, but that doesn't make it good in presentation or quality. TotK is fine, but the story is far worse and worse delivered than BotW. If the whole story was just the story of the timeperiod Zelda traveled back to, it could've been better, fleshing out that story. But, as is, we basically got the spark notes version of a potentially great story and a mediocre modern day story that we played through, all of which has very little relation to any other Zelda game other than the occasional reference, like Rauru also being the name of the Ocarina of Time Sage of Light
i think your interpretation of that user’s comment is a little off. they acknowledge that some zelda games are connected in terms of sequence (OoT to MM), but their point about them standing alone is simply that Nintendo values the standalone experience over the serialized experience. The games aren’t serialized, they’re episode- even the sequels. Anyone can pick up Phantom Hourglass or Majora’s Mask and enjoy it fully on its own without touching Wind Waker or Ocarina of Time. Because Nintendo is focused on having their games remain accessible to new comers, there’s only so much connective tissue that they can include before the rest is left to fan interpretation and theorizing. And it is the reason that retcons, contradictions, and discrepancies can crop up; keeping the lore consistent comes second to making a great game. The games can references each other while also being self contained. The games can “connect” while being mainly standalone. In a way, the timeline CAN be meaningless. If you play every Zelda game without concerning yourself with the lore, what does the timeline matter? it has pretty much no impact on your enjoyment and understanding of the games. In a way, interpreting the timeline really is kind of a cope, since the timeline has already been altered before by Nintendo themselves, and a lot of interpretations are neither wrong nor right. the timeline is just sort of there, and the fans who care about it give it meaning. it is something that will contact you be accumulating new questions that will never have concrete answers. there will pretty much never be a u oversaw agreement of the nature of the timeline, and there will always be gaps that Nintendo will never fill, because they want players to fill them for themselves. what this user is saying is right. The timeline is really just there to serve as extra fun for fans who want to theorize about it. it exists alongside games that came enjoyed on their own without any thought towards the greater timeline. I think what they’re saying isn’t that the timeline is meaningless in that there’s no fun to be had or that it adds nothing to the experience. It’s moral that the endeavor of trying to “solve” the timeline is what’s meaningless, because “cracking the code” is just not something that the timeline lends itself to.
I still put it around MC- I personally think the Zonai became the Picori- but it isn't as though I'm unwilling to take criticism of that standpoint, and I've never been a proponent of "they don't care about the timeline". It's part of what makes the games so fun honestly.
Good video and I agree for the importance of the timeline. But when he says there might be a history of destruction before hyrule founding, I don't think that's a good translation, the sentence is vague, he actually simply says there is an history before the founding, but "destruction" is not explicitly stated. I might be wrong tho (not expert japanese) but thats wierd, and kind of changes the point of the "refounding" I don't think that's what he is talking about.
I don’t believe that Fujibayashi’s comments necessarily mean that the history of Hyrule seen in TotK must take place after the Hyrule we know from games like OoT. He was drawing a line between the concepts of the LAND of Hyrule and the KINGDOM of Hyrule. Just as how Japan was a land filled with many kingdoms before it was an Empire. We forget that after Skyward Sword the Kingdom of Hyrule wasn’t immediately founded. The community just assumes it was because they like simple concepts. Link and Zelda triumph, bing-bam-boom, they immediately found a kingdom. No. It doesn’t work like that. Several generations could have passed. There are suggestions that a kingdom existed in the land of Hyrule before the Hylians were even sent skyward. The ruins in Skyward Sword attest to that. And thanks to Demise, it was a kingdom that fell. There may have been several downfalls, and several reestablishments. This doesn’t get us any closer to when the game takes place. If anything it opens it up further. But yes, there has always been some idea of a timeline. At least 9 of the games have direct and confirmed continuity between them. And then BotW and TotK has continuity between those two. I disagree about DLC, though. We are way to close to the Switch’s successor and if they were going to announce DLC, it would have been in the last direct so that it could release with the holidays. Like with Mario Odyssey, I think it is done. The one way this may change is if Switch games are playable on the next console.
I like the idea that they are soft rebooting the story. Breath of the Wild mirrors the events of the very first Zelda game (obviously not exactly, but you have open world exploration and you meet an old man at the start of the game that gives you a key item, in that case the sword, in BOTW's case, the paraglider. Tears mirrors the events of Zelda II. So the next in line will be a spiritual successor to A Link to the Past. But they are not happening at the same time as the first games, the curse of Demise is sort of repeating events in similar ways to the past, but in different ways. Time in the Zelda universe is already tampered with so much that you have all these timeline fractures, which is what makes it hard to pinpoint the exact location of each story.
Subtlety is not the problem. The problem is that, no matter how deep you look, the evidence can seemingly point in any direction you choose to focus on. There is a difference between sublety and a lack of commitment; many stories that people praise for "subtlety" are just a mesh of contradicting ideas. Maybe it is not always bad to have a story without definitive answers, it just can't really have a definitive timeline if so. Every Hyrule timeline theory seems to have just as much counter evidence as they have supporting evidence (generally). Even if we get an unambiguous official timeline stated by the creators, it does not mean much if the content of the games themselves do not align with that supposed timeline. Some TLoZ games seem to be very intentionally set before or after another but others do not and some seem to be reimaginings of previous games and alternate scenarios for the same timeline placement. The idea of the timeline splitting after OoT can solve some issues but it makes absolutely no sense for those branches to then converge into BotW. Whatever the timeline may or may not be, i really do not think the series as a whole even benefits from having a timeline as most games have no narrative connection to each other (aside from a few vague and inconsistent lore connections). It is obvious that the franchise has changed a lot over the years and the lore is not an exception, it is just not feasible to expect everything to fit together. There seems to be no overarching story, just an expanding mythology that seemingly changes every game.
Thank you. Im excited for this games future. IT just feels like we are missing a big something(DLC) . Also something to point out is nintendos retion rate of employes. The same people that created zelda are still in the credits of TOTK. That doesnt happen in this industry. Decades of nerds contemplating a world they've created with seemingly endless resources is a weird reality that we get to live in.
I don't want a DLC TOTK is already perfect as it is it's 3 times bigger than BOTW it doesn't need a dlc Just focus on the next game instead of wasting time on a dlc.
I think it would be cool if they fleshed out the Ancient Aspect Hero or the dragons more. But if we sacrifice that to get another new Zelda IP in less than 5 years, I’m down
If were imagining a time that has not been told then my theory may be spot on. In the child timeline A soccerer breaks ganon out of the four sword, a older link whi never had a major threat to fight rises to the occasion to fight ganon while the soccerer rips realitys open and summons a giant meteor of darkness and or gloom link is mortaly wounded slaying ganon the master sword is damaged and the cataclysm occurs essentially nukeing hyrule with darkness and soft resetting everything and then some time passes theres zonai tech and magic and then rauru founds a new hyrule as the gloom is mostly seeped to the depths unknown probably cause of zonai purifying the lands
People saying nintendo never cared about the timeline are kind of nuts, considering part of nearly every games promotion at launch has been telling people where it fits in relation to at least one other game in the series.
I don't like the idea of "all of this, even the flashbacks, happens so far in the future that it's not really meaningful to ask when it occurs relative to the other entries in the franchise or in which timeline," even if it is the canon answer, because there's no meaningful difference between that and "it's just a reboot". Before I finished Tears, I wondered if the timeline in the Zelda universe might be cyclical like the Wheel of Time, but that seems unlikely now that I've beaten it. I really enjoyed the theory that the flashbacks are telling the story of Ocarina of Time in the Downfall Timeline and explain why there should be a split there at all. It comports with the assertion that the timelines merge in the far future, because it's conceivable that some Princess Zelda from both the Adult and Child Timelines might someday experience events that send her back to the flashback era, and this always results in the Downfall Timeline. It solves the bootstrap paradox, because the "original" Zelda that caused the first loop wouldn't have come from the same future as the end of the stable time loop. And it also explains _how_ the three timelines could have merged.
Honestly, his statement fully has me convinced that its an adult timeline game. Why? In what branch was Hyrule completely wiped out, like, without a trace? Such destruction that there was a history of Hyrule, but it's completely erased? Only one. He didn't outright say where it fits, and the game didn't either, but piece together all the information like you mentioned, and that's what we end up with. Because let me ask something. When was it ever mentioned or even hinted at by the directors, or said in any way that could imply, that there was a timeline merger? That BOTW and TOTK are at the end of ALL branches? From everything I've seen, there ISN'T anything that supports it, and is simply a fan theory, just like pretty much everything else. Which is okay, but so many people subscribe to the idea of a timeline merger that they've almost misconstrued the idea that it is still only a theory with no confirmation. What I mean by this is people try to shut down others like myself who, honestly, don't buy the unified timeline theory, by saying it IS a thing and that's that. From all the information given, in game, out of game, by directors, and etc, there is more evidence for an adult timeline placement than any other. And this recent interview almost locks that down for me as well.
“I just feel I’ve done everything I can to create fun in that world” To me that means: “I’m not saying that we’re NOT going to get dlc….. But I don’t want to make dlc” Is also good to know that we had the same idea about the timeline as the director of totk.
TOTK (past history) goes after the Zelda 2 NES on the downfall timeline. After a destruction of hyrule. Link in zelda 2 uses the full triforce to begin a new and this merges the timlines and begins a new Hyrule. Which years later becomes BOTW and the (Present time) TOTK
Masterful video. It’s sad the “timeline isn’t real” and “TOTK flashbacks are pre minish cap” are having a hard time dealing with facts from the game’s developers. But… I’m not shocked 😂
Thing is, given how radically different the setting of Tears of the Kingdom has been from the rest of the Zelda franchise-to the point that it may as well be an entirely different world-a lot of people, including myself, have a hard time reconciling the events of the game with the timeline as it exists now. The only possibility I can think of is multiverse theory, which I really hope is *not* the case since that trope has been done to death by literally everyone.
It isn't really that hard to justify the refounding theory - even in SS the people of Skyloft barely retain knowledge that the surface exists at all, and this is a closed, protected, insular civilization with technology and record keeping which seems to be at least comparable to what we see in other games. I can't see much more than a few thousand years passing within that span either, considering that temples, springs, etc. have some intact infrastructure remaining. After something like 10,000 years anything on the surface apart from solid megaliths and not maintained/rebuilt would basically be completely gone. If Link in BOTW was in the shrine for even 500 years there would be a good chance that (assuming Ganon was still confined) that nobody would remember pre-Calamity Hyrule apart from conflicting myths.
I've always found it far more unbelievable that there's never been a dynasty change in over *ten thousand* years of Hyrule's history, Skyward Sword to Breath of the Wild. In terms of pure probability I sincerely doubt that TotK's Rauru is the only time that happened. If Ganon really is the arbiter of Demise's curse (which is, once again, an assumption we all make and not concrete fact), then when he appears we can only assume the bloodline of Hylia incarnate is present *somewhere* in Hyrule, not necessarily that she wears any crown or title. Or even that she's a woman and named Zelda - one of Hylia's distant descendants can be a Link, for all we know, and/or that the Spirit of the Hero is actually residing in Zelda in that era, to give an unimaginative example. This leaves the door WIDE open for the ruling family of Hyrule to not need to retain the bloodline of SkSw Zelda (or at the very least they can lie and say they do), and if IRL history is anything to learn from, new dynasties usually revise their history to convince their subjects they're the first and/or original and/or only legitimate ruler anyway. Fujibayashi seems to be confirming this.
look up the parallel reality timeline, with Fujibayashi saying "Its one of many possibilities" I could see it being a Multiverse type thing Video i watched mentioned the history of the timeline changing each time a new game came out. Something bout OOT being a retelling of the imprisoning war before it came out.
I get that they have a timeline and that fans want a timeline to, but sometimes maybe that means more splits. For example, i personally believe that Tears of the Kingdom's past is directly after Skyward Sword, and then 10,000 years lster, there's the 1st Calamity, another 10,000 years there's the Great Calamity/Breath of the Wild's past, and finally Tears of the Kingdom. I believe that this is a separate timeline that is parallel to the original timeline. Skyward Sword had time travel, and like Ocarina of Time, could've caused a timeline break. One that leads to Minish Cap and another that leads to Tears of the Kingdom's past.
It's not that there isn't a time-line. It's that Nintendo will scrap it at any time if it becomes convenient or stands in the way of gameplay. Which invariably makes lore discussions void.
I think due to castle placement during the zoni time and oot being the same points to that being whats intended. Rito bieng around then explains the murals and the little bird dudes and the sky temple in Twilight Princess. Those things feel intional.
Nice video. The only thing I give you the side eye on is the "...Japanese story telling doesn't do..." line. I know a lot of stories written by Japanese that are overly aggressive in theme and message. I know a lot of Japanese myths that are REALLY aggressive in theme and message. If I were you I'll walk that back. But you are right about the NDA and story of Zelda. The problem with the Zelda community isn't Zelda nor the timeline really-- the problem are the ones arguing on behest of the timeline. I've been with this game my entire life. The first came out when I was two years old and was the first game I played, the first game I beat. There wasn't an argument about timelines until the Skyward Sword. I know of the Majora Mask, Minish Cap, Windwaker feuds, but there wasn't an all out debate about them 'cause each of them could be fashioned to another game and changing the argument, thus mooting the original claim. The only time when the Timeline got super focused is when Skyward sword happen. Skyward Sword and Wind Waker HD brought in a lot of new people. The thing about new people is that many like to bandwagon. A lot of newbies got behind the "current thing". The timeline was the "current thing" and is just now dying down. The only people that really contested the timeline were those that played the games. I remember-- I was one of them. I remember that same time line off of IGN back in 2003 or 2005, and people made fun of them about it. Nintendo of America just lifted the time line from IGN and called it a day. The arguments for it, all was appeal to authority [Nintendo says so]. I guess What I am saying is-- Yes, you are correct. Don't trust the commercials for Zelda games 'cause most of them will put in whatever to grasp your attention, but just because it borderline lies doesn't mean there isn't a story. That is because of the NDA. So if you want to know the timeline, then just play the games and deduce for yourself.
Well I can’t exactly walk back a video I’ve already published. But I stand by my words when I say that Japanese storytelling is ultimately subtle in its presentation. Western media is certainly capable of this too. It was only during my second reading of The Great Gatsby when I was able to realize that Jordan cheated at golf, or that Jay secretly smuggled alcohol to make his fortune, and his use of the title “old sport” was something he had learned from his deceased benefactor which he used to try and blend into the East Egg crowd. I think what I was trying to say more was a message that I’ve been trying to say all along in most of my videos. The Zelda series is Japanese. The Hylians have always been unreliable narrators. They only have a sliver of the Truth but not the entire Truth. And King Rauru was not omniscient nor infallible. So it’s foolish to accept his words as the Truth if we can disprove his words with several examples. I’ll definitely flesh this idea out further in a future video once I’ve done enough research and written a script for it, but I do have an idea in mind.
Right on! Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm glad to see you read the article and that you pretty much came to the same conclusion that I did. It's so nice to find people that have the same way of thinking as I do with this article. Keep up the great videos!
Yeah, brillaintly put, and accurate to the essentails. Do not discredit what is being told in the story, as much as what is being told to the player. It works a lot like self-enforced NDA, the POINT of artistic exploration is to find the truths you put the pen to the paper FOR. If you just obfuscate some silly fairytale you alread know perfectly, it's not art, it's peek-a-boo. It's pointless for anything but development of very oung children. And part of the "NDA" is the copyright limbo, like Twitter artists squatting on the license to their own original chracters and presenting a real, organized and govenrmental threat, if a beeg corpurashion "steals their idea". That's also antithetical to ALL art. I recently put together in text a pretty dense recollection, of how I think this story is tangled in meta-fiction. Both in terms of ripoff, adn "consumer safety" of dealing with offensive topics: .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. The calamity happens in the future. The past with Sonia exists, because every time something disastrous happens, like Zelda dies, she pulls that part of the future away and into her "time" to delay the calamity. Which is exactly the reason WHY Sonia's time follows through INTO "the future", because this time's elements were inserted there. Without Sonia's power, the past ould just be another realm unrelated to the BotW/ totK world. And that's because it is Scred Realm. Sage Rauru did this same thing, it's ALWAYS been the mechanic by which Zelda timeline works, there's no convergence any more than what always was but people are treating the most recent game with myopia and bias to force into it a time travel explanation copy-pasted from MCU and Skyrim, when if it is copied from ANYWHERE then it's form Back to the Future. The green effect is accompanied with backwards music because this world FLOWS backwards, that's how Ganondorf was sealed, he was reversed next the passage of time. Similarly gold light of Stasis ALIGNS objects with the passage of time, they don't stop, they just start moving at the same speed as the world moves. Upheaval happens because the pressure of slamming this new world ONTO the Depths is reversed. That's what the blue Sheikah arrows DO, it's a refined form of the Green energy that leaves behind the spillover of Gloom and Malice, like electricity to enriched and depleted uranium with their radiation. IT's a mechanisitc explanation on how Nintendo builds gameplay to begin with, like restoring save-states across TIME in the TIMELINE of your play. And it's inspired by the 1982 TopCraft Japanese-animated film version of The Flight of Dragons, that particularly infuenced Twilight Princess and TotK, and is without a doubt the origin point where "Zelda was meant to be a sci-fi story". The UFO concept art was probably going to follow along the limestone explanation of dragon flight, transferred into Sheikah tech.
I've had a thought for a long time. Not so much a theory as much as a fun little 'what if' that I never took too seriously. Think about the Triforce. Three triangles, right? Three triangles touching corners to form a larger triangle with a gap in the center. A fourth upside down triangle. And I once played around with the idea of "what if there were a fourth piece of the Triforce that makes it whole?" It could still be looked at as a Triforce, seeing as the inclusion of that missing piece still leaves three corners. It just connects them seamlessly in the middle. I never really got as far as thinking about what purpose this would serve, but it just clicked while watching this video. Allow me to explain: -There are three pieces of the Triforce, each themselves referred to as a Triforce of their respective ideal, implying it's more about the whole relic being a shape with three corners than it being three pieces. -There are three timelines. -A fourth piece of the holy relic is introduced, closing the gap in the middle, unifying the three. This could be the Triforce of Unity. -Maybe this could come from a 4th god/goddess unrelated to Din, Nayru, and Farore. After all, the LoZ series is no stranger to alluding to further deific entities beyond the main ones standing front and center. We even have a horse god. -This would allow for a game with a narrative making a 'good' iteration of Ganon (or maybe rather a Ganon at least temporarily okay with being an ally) possible. -Maybe the creation of the Triforce of Unity, or the discovery of this piece that someone at some time created, is what leads to the timeline merge being possible? This wouldn't even need to have lasting effects on the iconography of the game, seeing how this fourth piece in this narrative could absolutely be just a booster module that burns out and is destroyed after the merge is done, leaving only the Triforce as it's always been known to us as. There's probably plenty of holes and plenty of angles I haven't even begun to explore for flaws. But I'm open to collaboration on this little idea, because with the strange exclusion of the Triforce and the unexplained merging of the timelines, this is almost starting to feel like the weird idea I previously thought would only be at home in a fanfic is ACTUALLY the idea they're leading up to.
@@wizcatcheslightning Oooh, no, actually, but that feels like another support for this maybe being an eventual plan. Tetra? WW? Maybe an allusion to that very same theory. I wonder if the theory predates WW? I'll have to check it out, see how much further this idea has been fleshed out.
@@GoProGamer447 from a game dev view I think they probably didn’t want to have to create a new model and animations for the new horns to attach to every weapon.
Thanks for the video! Very much appreciate the breakdown of the interview and re-affirmation that they do care about the timeline. I'll have to admit, i had my doubts even a couple months in regarding the founding and whatnot (got some friends who would deny the timline...) but your other videos with evidence about the sages, gerudos, ritos, and temples of time all helped put my mind at ease about the lore fitting. Definitely taking this as confirmation of zonai Rauru's ignorance thinking he was first.
but at this point I rather Nintendo starts focusing on the next big Zelda game. Can't understand why people want more of this game, since we have milked this world dry to the extreme at this point. Totk is already huge, and also the common DLC concepts were already exploited in Botw's DLC, like the master mode, the master sword rush trials, etc. But, to each its own. Now, regarding the timeline, this only settles Totk's position as in the future of the previous timelines, but it doesn't confirm the ugly merging or dragonbreak theory everyone seems to be accepting nowadays.
There has always been a timeline in mind by Nintendo it was us fans that started putting the pieces together, I mean look at oot and windwaker Ganondorf is sealed but since Link is sent back in time it leaves the timeline without a hero and if you play ww you can tell that Ganondorf is the exact same from oot even the game if you play attention to its story and characters. Also the timeline makes all the games have a connected purpose and I am all for that.
@@GoProGamer447 I'm all for the timelines too, I love the lore. My point is that the merging of the timelines that people are accepting nowadays is not canonical
This goes back to my “give equal credit to what is and is not being said” statement. In the ENG/JPN of Link’s christening ceremony, all 3 split timelines are acknowledged by Zelda/Revali/Daruk. That is what’s being said. What’s not being said right there is that “all of those timelines cannot be acknowledged without a merge”.
@@wizcatcheslightning that line was probably inserted as a cameo or easter egg to the community, for us to insert the game (Botw) in whatever timeline we choose.. that was Nintendo's intention regarding Botw's place in the timeline. But it has been interpreted as a merging evidence, something to which I strongly disagree. My point is, we don't need such a huge cataclism: A dragonbreak would imply a huge cataclysmic event similar to the DC Crisis at Multiple Earths event. That's a lot to add to the canon just for a mere reference and some clothing-weapons. There are far better and simpler explanations. I have one myself, but I will make a video about it instead of just keep posting it on youtube comments.
@@rGGdom Well the Nintendo of JPN website also supports a merging conclusion by placing BOTW/TOTK at the end of all three timelines. But yeah, make a video. I would be curious to hear you out. I’ll sub to your channel.
7:36 Idk how versed you are in Japanese, I'm not, but both on Google and DeepL I got something closer to "it is possible that there is a history of the founding of Hyrule, but that it was once destroyed before that." Yours sounds more focused on the kingdom itself being founded only after Hyrule was destroyed before.
Not terribly versed in Japanese specifically, but well versed in how language nuance works (from studying 5 or so languages). Regardless, my focal point wasn’t to focus on what I believe (I just threw that interview into DeepL). My focus of the video was to just say that “hey, Nintendo focuses on gameplay before story but they also don’t let gameplay dictate the story. The story isn’t just thrown together. It’s connected. And the timeline is real. Forget what I believe about it. You can no longer debate that the timeline isn’t a thing.”
10 minutes to say, "I'm right, you're wrong." The point trying to be made against a timeline is simple, if ineloquent. The non sequential games do not necessarily adhere to a strict linear story that histories the world. It's more like a, ahem, legend, that is being told all throughout history and time with many narrators having many versions. A bit like religion. Most denominations of Christianity are very similar with some putting more emphasis on the importance of certain people or events. Catholics and Mother Mary for example. Zelda games, with exception, could be interpreted similarly. The making of a time-line in and of itself was controversial and from what I remember, they refused the idea of one for a long time. Of course there are sequential events. The argument against it is that, it doesn't matter that much and the current, should be allowed to stray from whatever predicates it. Which as a lore nerd, bothers me, but it is a valid take on the whole thing. It's not that there is no time-line, it's an argument against its relevancy. As the time-line comes into question with every release and the fact that there are 3 different ones just to make it all make sense, leans heavily toward it being an unimportant afterthought by its creator. People are simply echoing this point of view.
@@wizcatcheslightning Yeah that's fair, I might be giving people too much of the benefit of the doubt here. I would like to believe that's the sentiment, but that doesn't account for the very real actual idiocy teeming in comments sections.
Always remember the game gives Rauru dialogue that specifically shows he can be wrong (his statement that Zelda's from a world where she hadn't traveled back in time). He's an unreliable narrator.
Its very simple. Hyrule is going to face the brink of extinction multiple times. Merging the timelines meant that things got erased and replaced to make all three work. That meant that Hyrule itself would also start over. Naming it "Hyrule" was likely Goddess interference.
I think you can fit tokt and botw in the timeline, the foundation could easily happens after the era of chaos ( its the only one in which a game doesn't happen , would explain the inteopers and lack of zonai also ) but the only thing keeping that from happening is Ganondorf, if the producers just used the same origin from oot or posterior i could see it working just fine , but is not the case, they clearly went for a different path . So i personally see both last games a just a soft reboot of the franchise , something like lord of shadows for Castlevania.
One thing i take into consideration, in terms of the timeline, are the armor descriptions. Clothes worn by the previous heroes of Hyrule are often called 'legends' implying that they are stories that have been carried through the ages over a long course of history. Something that another youtuber pointed out is that its possible that the micro timelines repeated so many times that now the macro timeline is now repeating many years later (the stories of ganon in botw and totk taking place ten thousand years ago), and botw is a spiritual reboot of zelda 1 and totk is zelda 2 repectively, hence why we have very little mention of the triforce. My guess (as well as the Tuber i was haphazardly quoting) is that the next game will be a prequel similar to alttp and give us the story of the triforce in this 'new' timeline.
Starting to wonder if Tears is actually just another game not a sequel to breath they kinda mess up the timeline and the Sheka are basically gone replaced by a even older race so what if this while taking place in a similar world is a different timeline
To me, totk doesn’t need a dlc to be complete. Some people think every single detail of a story needs to be fleshed out and there can be nothing left up to the imagination, like where Krass went. That’s very boring to be spoon fed and not be able to be imaginative, I LOVE mystery. Remember: if they spelled everything out, your favorite Zelda theory Channel wouldn’t exist, because it wouldn’t be needed.
Agreed the game is too damn good and complete to need dlc. I am not a huge fan of dlc because it just feels like filler content that should have been in the base game unless it’s something big and crazy.
I think that botw and totk take place very far in the future to other zelda games that some events happened again(founding of hyrule and imprisoning war)
@@wizcatcheslightning none I'm joking but at the same time not because he specified us to be open to other timeline placements rather than after skyward sword and after minis cap
I'm so glad they're not outright denying the timeline. I wouldn't have minded if they retconned it and restarted, but knowing that technically everything that happened before botw still happened is nice. I'm glad we got confirmation that Zelda still has a timeline. Best part, this leaves open the possibility of a Zelda game that explores Hyrule's endless cycle brought on by Demise.
First of all...Dark souls is horrible example of typical japanese narrative. Japan relies a lot of over explanation a over complex exagerates things happening without caring how much sense it can make. And for the rest..who cares? The official Zelda timeline appeared in 2013 or so to shut up annoying whining fans that never stop asking about. And to be honest,who cares? The name is The Legend of Zelda, legends are vague things with different interpretations dependinf on the culture or the time period...and thats exactly what this games are all about for me. Yes, there's obvious sequels and theres succesions of events. But at the end of the day im sitting my ass to play and enjoy this saga of masterpieces and im not gonna bother about any frustrated fans rant. Calm down, guys....and enjoy what we have after 40 years of incredible videogames.
Hey, since timeline discussion seems to be back in full swing again, I have an idea that I've been trying to get discussion on but to no avail. I don't know how much time you've got, and I know I'm not an established channel, but I've spent a lot of time looking into something that most of the fandom seems to be in agreement on that I've found some major flaws in. I want to try making a video on it, but I just haven't found the time or energy to do so. Let me know if you're interested in talking about it.
@@wizcatcheslightning Thank you. Essentially, I've found problems with the idea that the events of OOT lead up to the Imprisoning War described in ALTTP. If you read the Japanese manual of ALTTP, you'll find tons of contradictions indicating that the battle after Link's supposed defeat in OOT has entirely different events take place at a different time and place. I won't go over all of it, but one key detail is that the Master Sword had not even been confirmed to have existed when the Imprisoning War took place. The differences are many and large enough to throw the official narrative into question. I've tried to talk with people about this, but nobody wants to even consider it.
@@SarafYT I was recently looking into that specific stuff for some research on a current project. The best answer I can come up with is that the lore of the Master Sword wasn’t fleshed out yet, and we received more exposition to it in the form of OOT retconning its origins better.
@@wizcatcheslightning That's not what the problem is, though. Master Sword lore isn't pertinent to the issues, it's the fact that the Master Sword was not found at all prior to the IW. There was no Hero of Time in the IW. There was no Link to be defeated either because the battle to seal Ganon happened as soon as he invaded the Castle. There is no retcon of Master Sword lore, there's a discrepancy as to whether or not two battles are the same battle. By treating them as two seperate events, which is what all descriptions seems go suggest, there is a change in the timeline that could fix some problems.
Wiz catches the clown🤡 Not only should they have said that around BotW but considering how most of the stuff is seemingly half hazard or blantantly just throws out stuff to do it own thing. Should be in the game not need L tier theories to inhale cope.
To make it simpler for the dumb dumbs. - Zelda skyward sword and the next Zeldas happened, - A merger of the timelines at the end of the three timelines happened and this event destroyed Hyrule somehow. - Rauru and Sonia are re-building Hyrule again, but have no knowledge of the past before them, so for them, they are the founders of Hyrule. - Thousands of years happened, The Calamity shows up. (We don't know if the Calamity showed up before this, but it is implied this was not the first time since the Sheika prepared in advance building the divine beasts and sheika temples to train the next Hero for the coming of the Calamity, so we don't know for how long the Calamity has been showing up.) - 10 thousand years passed, The Calamity returns, kicked Link's ass and Zelda put to sleep the calamity. - 100 years later, BOTW starts - 7 years later, TOTK starts.
Oh wow so in Totk it explains that the timelines merged! Wow I guess I was a dumb dumb for not finding the NPC/story quest that explicitly explains that a merger happened, I mean its not like someone made that up to COPE and try and make sense of a clearly broken timeline right? It . . . It is in the game right?? Like you guys didn't just make that up?? Right?? I mean a timeline merging event would be a huge deal and there would be somekind of reference to it somewhere right???
@@GenMars its almost like it wasn't explained by anyone in the game and is just pure COPIUM because there is no possible way that totk/botw could fit into any one timeline from before.
@@calebmon In BOTW memory while Zelda "celebrates" the appointed knight position on Link, she mentions reference to all the timelines hinting a merger of sorts. Also with out need to point out the merger, we see races from different timelines together, such as Rito and Zora. That alone already tells us there was a merger at some point. The names of the Divine beasts also point out to a merger of heros that existed in different timelines into one. So yeah, the hints were layed down all over the place. Like the narrator explained, westerners need to be feed spoon the story but in Japanese sorytelling, you put the pieces together by playing the game, talking to the npcs and the story through visual story telling such as locations in hyrule, naming conventions and the sort, so you made the point from the narrator, unless someone takes your hand and tells you what's going on, you won't be able to find out on your own and Zelda games have never worked like that.
@@GenMars That's what they hinted, will we see this in future game installments? Maybe or maybe not. Fujibayashi mentioned the world got possibly destroyed at some point that not even Rauru or Sonia have knowledge of the previous Zeldas or the legend of the Hero. The evidence is Rauru having no idea about the name Link, now previous Zelda games always talk about a legendary hero. Rauru has no idea of any hero, further proving that any knowledge of the past is lost. Now they mentioned they merged the timelines for BOTW to exist, so its logical that the merger had to do with whatever happened that all knowledge of the previous time before Rauru and the Zonai had to go hand in hand.
@@Aladato I’ll list them: 1. OOT Gandondorf (same guy in WW, TP, and ALTTP. He dies at the end of TP.) 2. Four Swords Adventures Ganondorf 3. TOTK Gandondorf
@@wizcatcheslightning I see, I didn't play Four Swords Adventures. From what I had heard it was a "Ganon" and not Ganondorf, but I'm not sure why the difference, even if there is no human form.
@@Aladato I didn’t either. It’s a tough game to find these days. But the game does mention a Ganondorf. The difference can be found in the names, actually. Not being cheeky here, just informative! The suffix “dorf” is German for “man”. So Ganondorf means “Ganon man”. Whereas Ganon is Ganondorf’s boar demon form. TLDR; Ganon = Pig Demon who has Triforce of Power Ganondorf = human form of Ganon
I thought what Fujibayashi said was obvious. It's the only way to fit what the games said with what they said about BotW/TotK being at the end of the timeline.
The theory that I've heard that I would love to be the truth. Is that Botw and TotK are the start of the true timeline. And from now one. Just like BotW and TotK did. The games will retell parts of the previous games. All the games that came before are Legends that have been told and retold for generations and therefore differ from what really happened. Which is why sometimes the timelines or even the games don't make much sense (looking at you Windwaker with your fish that evolved into birds because the world flooded....) Just like how Rauru who we've come to know in the Legends as a Hylian Sage. Who turns out to be a Zonai Sage and King. I can't be sure if skyward sword is supposed to be a Legend or a true tale. But I know (or at least want to believe) that's from now on. Every Zelda game is going to have its own story. And within that story, little pieces of previous Legends (the games before BotW and TotK) will be explained better. I think this would be an amazing way to redo the timeline and make sure all the games and stories actually fit together and fit well.
@@wizcatcheslightning thank you for actually reading it haha. I'm quite passionate about the games and really value lore to an unhealthy extent. So I really hope this is what they're going with haha.
Folks who thought these 2 games were in the CT got rolled; folks who thought the Zonai Kingdom came before OoT got rolled. It's time to increase scrutiny on those who got it wrong and lift up those who got it right. The truth demands it.
![FendiDa Rappa - Clock Dat ft. Shamar Marco [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3NBU8KHdxYY/mqdefault.jpg)
Let the other timeline debates carry on.
You are the first person I've personally seen in video to bring up that the original games were advertised as prequels.
I was there during these advertising and thought I was just misremembering.
Just like Link's Awakening is a sequel to A Link to the Past - always was.
They only reason they swapped the Oracle games and Link's Awakening in the books is people kept saying The Hero of Legends died at sea XD.
So youre saying that it all exist but in the three timelines is how to interpret it. Oot to loz 2 are its own time and way later the lines converge and theres a missing "link" and 10k yrs going into like age of calamity > botw > totk?
@@Research_theTruth something like that 😅
@@Research_theTruth the timelines were already split once they made Windwaker. Twilight Princess added the third.
Downfall - Ganon had the triforce and was sealed - that was since the 90s.
The only thing I can think is that the timeline split degraded the triforce and also Hyrule. We even have Link between worlds where Loruel is falling apart because they destroyed their triforce.
Windwaker - Hyrule was essentially destroyed and the triforce lost.
Twilight princess - the full triforce is never seen again after either...and it's possible Wisdom was still with Midna. We don't know.
Downfall timeline the triforce isn't destroyed, only hidden.
My theory is somewhere (and it could be any timeline - I think it's downfall) the full Triforce was wished into the royal bloodline - which is why Zelda welds the whole triforce on her hand.
This more than likely fixed the destruction of Hyrule from the timeline splits and merged them.
It's a bit clunky - but that's my take.
@Stormrunner1981 i had that wish theory also and some more speculation but yeah.
I think it's fine if it has no DLC. If they think they've done everything for TotK that they wanted, they shouldn't milk by coming up with stuff. Rather, they should focus on the next game.
I find it admirable, especially nowadays, that a dev says that they don't want to do DLC (yet, anyway), because they think they've made the game fun (enough). No DLC for the sake of it to make more money, as many, many AAA-studios do. Cutting up games, just to re-sell those chunks as DLC.
And yes, I am glad that it's highly likely that the Zonai descending, and Rauru much later (re-)founding Hyrule, are events, long after any/all games of all any/all timelines.
I can vibe with that. I’m wishing more people, myself included, would have voted with their wallets with games like Pokemon Scarlet/Violet.
Yeah I'd rather just accept the re-founding as being Fujibiyashi's intent and move on. Sure, he technically isn't saying it has to be, but this is probably the closest we'll get to an answer from him
I agree on principle but this game could really use a dlc to flesh out the sky and the depths
You clearly can’t pet dogs. A huge disappointment 1/10
At minimum it needs a free update for Master Mode.
We need to remember that Zelda is riddled with unreliable narrators but also that retcon is a thing. I’ve come to the conclusion that everyone (RUclipsrs and fans, not the in game characters) is right until told otherwise by the sources themselves. Nevertheless it’s a blast trying to piece together the story, even if we may never truly reach a reliable conclusion. It’s a “journey beats the destination” thing for me 😊
You nailed it
That's the best answer possible from Fujibayashi. No timeline wouldn't be interesting and knowing everything about the timeline wouldn't be interesting too. I don't even care if I get an official explanation in the end, theorizing the timeline is so fun
I'd like to think TotK has items from every timeline (ww Link shirt, TP Ganon sword, etc.) as a way to say "any of these timelines COULD have happened, but we don't know for sure." Maybe the lobster shirt is just a shirt with a story, maybe it actually happened, and that's open for us to decide. But they won't set one of them as official.
that's the option that makes the most sense,
all of the events from the timelines predate ocarina of time, the banishment of the twilight took place before Oot, so the twilight would exist in all 3 timeline, along with termina, the ocean world, holodrum and so on,
so, after thousands of years, every event that could happen, happened, let's say that a 100 years after Zelda 2 came the twilight invasion or vaati seal broke, the same for the adult timeline, after Spirit tracks came the twilight invasion or something else
something like "timelines merging" would literally kill all life in the universe by the energy released, how would the universe decide which chunks of land come from which timeline? who gets replaced by which alternative version? is there any alternative versions to begin with?
there could be a mix of totally unrelated people now fighting for having the same land, we would have deserts and lakes mixing due to the different changes in the landscape, there would be volcanoes materializing out of nowhere and killing billions of people, there would be people trapped inside structures that materialized at the wrong place and time, it makes no sense even with magic on the table
@@troloinkto Totally unrelated but I like that you brought that last part up. If you're familiar with MTG lore that's basically what the Phyrexians did. The effectively terraformed the world of Rath to look like the world of Dominaria then with all their troops, bases, ect in place teleported and fused the entire surface of Rath with the already existing surface of Dominaria with similar effects. Mass extermination on both sides as different terrains, buildings mountains, lakes, oceans appeared or disappeared as both worlds fused together.
I always considered that Rauru’s kingdom was the third incarnation (or later) of the Kingdom of Hyrule
There have been multiple incarnations of Hyrule, that is an acceptable answer that I can get behind as well.
That does seem to be the implication.
@@wishingstar8701There but most of those are the same exact Hyrule just with a different layout over several centuries. Though TP's up north.
The timeline deniers really frustrate me. Before almost every release nintendo would tell people where in the timeline a game belonged.
Yes thank you I've said that for the longest. There was nothing wrong with the damn timeline before BoTW and ToTK, Eiji Aunouma just had to fuck it all up because he has no clue what he's doing anymore.
@@gensteps923 I don't think it's a case of him not having a clue of what he's doing. I think it's a case of him not giving a damn anymore.
Yeah, I know it's not an improvement, but still..
Here's how I look at it. The developers definitely start with mechanics first, that isn't up for debate. At some point, when they feel the mechanic is developed enough, the writers have a clear idea how it's meant to relate to at least one other game. Most games have a clear connection to a game or group of games, but I don't think the writers hold fast to that story idea like it's an unchangeable rubric. Things change in development, and things like bug testing take precedent over interconnectivity. The story is never arbitrary, but I think the writers just aren't as religious about it as we are. And of course you have creative differences between writers. Miyamoto views things differently than Fujibayashi and Koizumi; they just don't all handle the games in the same way.
I love totk but it's story has frustrated me because it has like 3 things that need to happen be4 it can happen that haven't, ganon breaking out of the four sword and being killed in the child timeline, a cataclysm whiping out most of everything and the tinelines converging and the master sword being damaged to explain the rechargeing...
@@captianbacon Time gaps leave room for things to happen off-screen. Remember, games like Minish Cap and Skyward Sword hint at entire adventures we have yet to see.
Honestly the timeline is what makes zelda interesting I love the idea that all games you play matter and have a purpose and are connected in a grand scheme of things. Also love totk honestly I don’t want dlc (unless its free) the game is good as is, since when did we started wanting dlc for games now.
If they elaborated on the lore for the potential dlc, well then I would be totally on board. Otherwise I’ll pass
"since when did we start wanting dlc for games now" we want dlc because we enjoy playing through new content in games we enjoy. You make it sound like totk would be worse with dlc.
@@valistic7206Thing is Zelda games have never really needed DLC and I'm kinda glad that BotW at this point in time is the oddball when it comes to that.
@@firionkaiser8291 it's not that I think totk needs dlc, just that if it did get dlc it would be nothing but a positive.
My only sticking point for a refounding are the OoT Castle Town ruins on the Great Plateau, clearly built after Rauru's Kingdom. It *could* just be a visual reference but they're too similar for me to not note on its timeline and similarities.
I know this isn't a timeline debate video I just couldn't resist lol, refounding is still likely the best solution. This just bothers me more than it probably should.
No worries. Good to see you again, Cato
Ancient temples irl have designs described in holy texts and cultures focused on rebuilding those temples. It's possible for places of significance to be built with their predecessors in mind as a form of showing honor or homage.
These are definitely not OoT's ruins though. We know OoT Rauru built the temple of time before Hyrule Kingdom was established since he was around during the Era of Chaos. His version of the Temple of Time would've been seen on the Great Plateau in distant past cutscenes along with the castle at this point considering that OG Hyrule Castle was built intentionally next to the Temple of Time that we see in OoT (technically MC since it's supposed to be the same area though we never see the Temple of Time in game, it's there somewhere). Plus we know that the Temple of Time shown on the Great Plateau was used for ceremonies and events.
@@firionkaiser8291 Ah I knew I missed something. Thanks for that. Is it possible that historia (in a soft retcon) was referring to ToTK's Rauru and Temple of Time? I need to read HH again.
@@cato3277 Definitely not since the Interloper War mentioned in TP was the war during the Era of Chaos, OoT Rauru created the Temple of Time after the Interlopers were sent to the Twilight Realm and created the only known gateway to the Sacred Realm where the Triforce was now being held via through the Master Sword as we see in OoT.
I've been riding on the refounding theory for some time now but if you were to assume the distant past was actually before Minish Cap then it seems hardly make sense that Zonai Rauru wouldn't know about the Triforce or even the Master Sword at all.
Plus the reasoning for Zonai Rauru's Castle being built is completely different from the one we see in most of the games.
"We have no plans at this time" - is the stock answer that is technically true even if the DLC is being actively worked on... Nintendo don't usually consider something "planned for release" until its well into development and they have a set release schedule in mind.
If they are announcing a game that is early in development they tend to use the phrase "now in development."
I think however there is a real possibility that TOTK will not see DLC as it sounds like Aonumas team has done everything they wanted to in the TOTK world... However I suspect they are not resting on their laurels - TOTK gave us the ancient hero's aspect a piece of armour that hints at a new design for a new Zelda protagonist... I think its possible that the Zelda team may be working on a zelda title set in hyrule's past and featuring this new character and that to tell that story and implement ideas they have they need to leave the TOTK/BOTW version of Hyrule behind.
I would be all for that!
I'm anticipating Tears of the Kingdom to get a decent expansion to come out with the new console next year especially if the rumours of significant graphical and performance updates for the 2022 and 2023 releases are to be believed, this would also explain the delay from 2022 to 2023, because you don't spend an entire year working on 'polish' for a completed title - must've been a lot of behind the scenes work on increasing the complexity for the future generation, while cutting back to ensure stability on the current generation
It sounds like Link and Zelda's great-grandchildren are telling their own children about the family "Deku"‐tree.
i think its fine that people still believe it happens before oot bc od the vagueness of everything but this is the first possibilitie he stated it is at least the one that comes to his mind first which makes me believe its the most likely answer. i also am glad that he said that bc some people in the community are so damn assholes about this whole thing. its so annoying honestly
I could have sworn that when BotW was in development, Nintendo stated that fans should consider playing Skyward Sword, due to references. When they said this, I clearly recall them also pairing it with showing images of some ruins + carvings on said ruins. Personally, I never played Skyward Sword prior to playing BotW or TotK, so I can't confirm any references to it. It is in my backlog though, so I'll be playing that one soon. Anyway, those who deny a timeline, while also ignoring that Nintendo advertises certain titles as sequels or prequels to others, are just... I just don't think they are paying attention.
Good reasoning. Definitely play Skyward Sword! Don’t let the difficulty stop you from beating it
The NDA is a very important point people need to keep in mind, there is only so much the Zelda Team are legally allowed to talk about which is why Aonuma and Fubiyashi are so vague so that is why I treat it as such.
It's pretty clear at this point, it's not a reboot, and it follows all the other Zelda games after some great merger, these statements and the others they have made pretty much settle it. My working theory is the Ancient Hero Aspect with what might be a Gerudo Born Hero 10,000 years ago will be the next game.
We won't follow this Link and Zelda anymore, they are done, But ever since BOTW, that tapestry in Inpa's house SCREAMS unreleased Zelda game with the Ancient Hero. I've always felt that was true ever since I first saw it. Going back that far, they can do anything they want.
They can use the same or updated engine on a new platform, and base overworld, but totally remake it for that era. Castle Town and many of the ruins can be present and whole, We will be the ones that split the dueling peaks, while existing places like Hetano and Luralin Village would be missing. We can have different powers, or some combination, and the game could play like a more traditional Zelda game while retaining some familiarity and they don't have to 100% re-invent the wheel. Those are 'possibilities'.
8:39 people say ganondorf is «misunderstood» and they want that ganondorf back, but in totk ganondorf he is a selfish king of the desert, who can control molduga
Which is exactly how Ganondorf has been shown in most Zelda games he's been in. A selfish king of the Desert who wants power in any way that he could.
The man is literally the incarnation of primordial hate. How do people think he’s misunderstood 😭😭
@@mrbiscuits001 Right? Like what are they thinking
@mrbiscuits001 OoT's Ganondorf, a different incarnation entirely, outlined his goals in Wind Waker. He wanted to conquer Hyrule to claim a better home for the Gerudo.
Also in the Japanese version of Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf's motivations were outlined a bit more. He saw peace as the path to weakness and hated the Zonai for making the world weak. Bit of a social darwinist which kinda fits for a man who grew up in the harsh unforgiving gerudo desert.
@@323starlight okay, he's still the incarnation of primordial hate. The man ain't misunderstood.
During BOTW, I thought more about it over the last few years and came to the conclusion that it was a soft reboot of the series. TOTK cemented that idea by introducing the earliest known King (assuming pre-MC), and pushing forward the idea of moving forward with the series by appreciating the games of old into an "era of myth".
I want to see where they go next, but I would be surprised if they go backward into the old timeline and not forward ahead several hundreds of years.
Warning: Wall of text follows. It's not a rant though.
When it comes to Japanese storytelling relying on subtly, I tend to agree. Western stories even have a different structure that originates in those nations that deviates from the 3 act structure. They are often more character focused, and they also don't require a central conflict.
That said, for as much as I love BOTW and TOTK; I think There are some elements of the narrative that are way, way too weak to do justice to the story they are trying to tell. I know this is a bit off topic from the timeline; but hearing the director talk about how he doesn't do things randomly, while there are these massive, unfun, broken plot-holes in TOTK, it gives me pause.
I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Western audiences want narrative lore spoon-fed to us. There are plenty of vague, open, and subtle Western stories. I think it's more that we want certain elements of the story defined. For example, take a look at great Western fantasy like Lord of the Rings. If you read just that novel, we don't know much about what Sauron is. He's just some malevolent entity. He gets expanded on in The Silmarillion; but that just introduces new mysteries and subtle stories that require interpretation. And there are a ton of bits of narrative in that work that are just not spelled out.
But, at the same time, we don't have to wonder about the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen. That is defined. We don't have to interpret the subtlety of the friendship between Samwise and Frodo; again, that is very clear. Tolkien didn't introduce elements into his story to muddy the waters on those interpersonal relationships. We don't have to wonder what the ring of power is, nor why it needs to be destroyed, nor why it needs to be destroyed in the location it needs to be destroyed. All of that is crystal clear.
In a similar way, there are some really well defined plot points in games like Elden Ring, as well as the rest of the Souls series. There is a lot left to interpretation; or more like, there is a lot to discover. I don't think most of the story of these games is really about crafting our own narrative. It's got a defined plot, just not a clear plot. We have to find the story.
To bring this back and not actually spend too much time on this essay (lol); there are so many story elements in TOTK that needed more to allow them to properly exist in the game without being giant plot-holes. For example, my biggest bugbear is Hateno. Why do none of the NPCs remember Link? I have seen endless theories as to why; and each of them have their own strengths and weaknesses. But they all have a LOT of really big weaknesses. And I think that's on the writers. They should have either explained that, or just not written the narrative in and around Hateno that way. I'm like 70% sure the reason they did, is to allow new players who've not played BOTW to "meet" those NPCs without having them overwhelmed by the events of BOTW. And that was a terrible idea.
There are little problems like that all over the place, and I really wish they would stop leaning on "player interpretation" as an excuse for not properly fleshing out the story they are telling. Or rather, if subtlety is a balancing act; I think the current Zelda writers are falling on the side of too subtle. And I don't think that's a cultural thing. I don't need everything spelled out for me; but I would like there to be few things that seem more and more like giant plot holes the more I think about them.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk lol.
Excellent points here
I wouldn’t even say the main problem with TotK’s story is its subtlety, but rather its inaccuracy. The plot isn’t all that vague, your average player will get the gist. It’s a game created to be accessible to children after all (which is not me saying that children don’t understand complex storytelling, more that they aren’t as media literate as adults who’ve just experienced more media due to existing for a longer time). There’s just so many elements of the story that contradict the game that it’s meant to be a direct sequel to. Why do only certain NPCs remember Link? Sidon f.e. clearly remembers you but why not, as you said, the people of Hateno? Even disregarding the events of BotW it’s weird, Zelda literally lives in Hateno so one would assume Link frequents the town (and presumably Link lives there too though that’s not been confirmed). Robbie also lives in Hateno, did Link never visit him inbetween BotW and TotK? The game seems to not think so. Also why does no one seem to remember the Calamity or the world-changing events of BotW? Impa is like the only person that has dialogue about the Calamity while the rest of the world has collective amnesia about it. Where’s all the Sheikah tech? Where are the Divine Beasts? “It’s a mystery” being the only provided explanation for its disappearance is just… sloppy. It took them years to make this damn game, it’s not a big ask for them to just have some level of consistency in the world-building between the two games, or even within just TotK on its own.
See, that exact timeline possibility is exactly what I’ve been saying from the moment of release
Small rant: We can immediately eliminate botw and totk from the adult time line because the flood in wind Waker (this is assuming this hyrule founding part in the past is before Minish Cap) so it’s either the down fall time line , or Child timeline being after A link between worlds (I think I always forget the order of the downfall timeline) or Four Sword adventure I’m putting my money on ending the Child timeline
I agree. Also we need DLC just to answer where Rauru and Sonia's child/children are, and also who the Ancient Aspect is
Man, whoever made that fancy Microsoft Paint infographic for me was a TOTAL lifesaver 😉
@@wizcatcheslightning 😎
No we don't lmao
@@kayden2119 We kind of do though. So the royal bloodline ends with Rauru and Sonia and Zelda is related to them by...? Zelda has Rauru and Sonia's power because they joined their blood so logically there must be an heir. The lack of any mention of this heir in game is a major plot hole. Not really something you just go "oh of course there's a child. But they're not important enough to talk about, they just CONTINUE THE ROYAL BLOODLINE"
Ancient Aspect you could maybe let slide, but having 2 games that only hint at them is a little bit of a disappointment.
@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 You are thinking way too deep about this. You want a whole dlc just to say one sentence about some kid. You gotta learn not to be so obsessive over this kinda stuff lmao does not seem healthy
I still think it's as simple as, yes there is a timeline, but it is being told through legend, and details get blurry through the retellings. We do this all the time in the real world, events that existed hundreds of years apart will get lumped together in one era, because we don't have much context. Every game is a story being told by someone after the fact. I do think the timeline split was a pretty unnecessary wrench in the gears. I prefer the idea that people just collectively got details mixed up and remembered things wrong. "The Great Flood? No, that's a myth, that Link's family had just moved to an oceanic climate by then, and brought stories about Hyrule with them."
I still think they embraced the timeline to help skyward sword sell a billion copies. Yeah there’s a few direct sequels but it’s so obvious from the content in these games that consistency in storytelling does not matter to them nearly as much as their gameplay gimmicks. And I think that’s true for a lot of Nintendo’s IPs. Souls games have better stories because the writers actually care about telling them. The subtlety is separate
OH SHIT maybe BOTW/TOTK is the game that occurs after anytime Hyrule falls! so in each timeline if hyrule and its people either fall to ganon, evil, natural disasters, war, etc. hylia buts in to "save" the kingdom by keeping some hylians alive and eventually sending down zonai w secret stones. Basically making Zonais these angels/aliens/whatever the hells the cleanup crew of the gods to get hylians back on their feet protecting the triforce from evil or whatevs. And maybeeee (tho this is a stretch) thats why every zonai device has a little broom on it cus they are the literal janitors for the gods' messes. lol Regardless, I think theres a pretty good chance zonai are the equivalent of the world's fairy in a bottle where they come down and undo all the fucked up shit and then die and go back to where they came from. Plus there is plenty of religious parallels if u wanna dive into it (sheep and sheppards and all that)
I think that there are two extreme ways to look at the timeline:
1. These games were always planned to fit perfectly into the timeline as if the storywriter of the first game was omniscient of all future games.
2. The timeline is just made up and really has no bearing on these games.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. As you have stated, there is a certain order... but at the same time, the Zelda series is a series in which the Lore has been expanded in many different ways. If I recall correctly, there was a quote by one of the creators in the past who said that they really focused on making each game it's own thing. The way I understand it is that each new game is created as it's own story but also has a placement. Since the timeline was created, it seems that they have gone to greater efforts to tie each new game to the games that precede it.
As the Lord expands, we sometimes find things in previous games that don't seem to add up. While some of these things may have explanations that are provided... some may simply be a matter of not considering every angle of a fictitious world. So, in these cases, we come up with theories to try to explain the inconsistencies. In these cases, there likely is no "official answer" as the inconsistency was either an oversight or something that they didn't care enough about to provide an explanation. There are still many things I am thinking about with regards to the timeline...
1. If Rauru and Sonia came long after the other games (except BOTW), that would likely mean that they are descendents of prior Zeldas... why do they look so different?
2. If Demise was created by Ganondorf + Secret Stone, then how did he exist in Skyward Sword (seemingly before)?
3. Tears of The Kingdom seems to suggest that the Zonai precede the Sheikah... but wasn't Impa on Skyward Sword a Sheikah?
4. If the Zonai were considered god like and the 3 "gods" that created life on Hyrule have the same names as the 3 immortal dragons, is it possible that these were originally god like Zonai that later engaged in draconification?
I am trying to get away from my view that TOTK memories precede Skyward Sword. There may be answers to these things, but I guess there is a lot that we don't know. But then again, you suggested that we may not be able to take every statement made (such as statements by Rauru) as Gospel truth... so that opens a lot of doors of possibilities for how we interpret the lore.
They don't do the story half hazard, they just tell it in-game half hazard and expect fans to piece together excuses for their stories to still function. Yes, Zelda rhymes. But having Demise be reborn as Ganondorf out of the Gerudo over and over again is bullshit. There's a reason Ganondorf kept coming back in all those different timelines. He was sealed, not killed. This is the first time they've had Ganondorf reincarnate as a new Ganondorf born of the Gerudo. Many Zelda games follow a cohesive timeline. But TotK breaks with the tradition in many ways. There are no references to the events or technologies present in BotW even. TotK has a timeline that functions fully standalone. The fact that there are no remnants of shieka tech at all, the existence of the sky Islands which had no presence at all in the prior game and didn't rise up after the previous game, Ganondorf's gloom having no ties or reference to malice or reflection on his appearance as the beast he had become in the first game, it just doesn't fit well. Not without ignoring a ton of the worldbuilding in BotW. I mean, why are the Divine Beasts not being monitored and utilized by new pilots to protect their regions, or shown to have been broken in the intro of TotK? Sure, it's not "boring" in the sense that you have to put a ton of work into it to make the story make in-world sense, but that doesn't make it good in presentation or quality. TotK is fine, but the story is far worse and worse delivered than BotW. If the whole story was just the story of the timeperiod Zelda traveled back to, it could've been better, fleshing out that story. But, as is, we basically got the spark notes version of a potentially great story and a mediocre modern day story that we played through, all of which has very little relation to any other Zelda game other than the occasional reference, like Rauru also being the name of the Ocarina of Time Sage of Light
So cool didnt know that oot was a prequel to a lttp i do hope we get DLC at some point it will be worth the wait 😊 in my opinion
I highly recommend most Zelda games before 2012. Just not the CDI ones 😅
OoT was actually marketed as a prequel to ALttP back in the day.
im willing to settle for "hyrule warriors: tears of the kingdom" if there's no dlc
i think your interpretation of that user’s comment is a little off. they acknowledge that some zelda games are connected in terms of sequence (OoT to MM), but their point about them standing alone is simply that Nintendo values the standalone experience over the serialized experience. The games aren’t serialized, they’re episode- even the sequels. Anyone can pick up Phantom Hourglass or Majora’s Mask and enjoy it fully on its own without touching Wind Waker or Ocarina of Time.
Because Nintendo is focused on having their games remain accessible to new comers, there’s only so much connective tissue that they can include before the rest is left to fan interpretation and theorizing. And it is the reason that retcons, contradictions, and discrepancies can crop up; keeping the lore consistent comes second to making a great game.
The games can references each other while also being self contained. The games can “connect” while being mainly standalone.
In a way, the timeline CAN be meaningless. If you play every Zelda game without concerning yourself with the lore, what does the timeline matter? it has pretty much no impact on your enjoyment and understanding of the games. In a way, interpreting the timeline really is kind of a cope, since the timeline has already been altered before by Nintendo themselves, and a lot of interpretations are neither wrong nor right. the timeline is just sort of there, and the fans who care about it give it meaning. it is something that will contact you be accumulating new questions that will never have concrete answers. there will pretty much never be a u oversaw agreement of the nature of the timeline, and there will always be gaps that Nintendo will never fill, because they want players to fill them for themselves.
what this user is saying is right. The timeline is really just there to serve as extra fun for fans who want to theorize about it. it exists alongside games that came enjoyed on their own without any thought towards the greater timeline.
I think what they’re saying isn’t that the timeline is meaningless in that there’s no fun to be had or that it adds nothing to the experience. It’s moral that the endeavor of trying to “solve” the timeline is what’s meaningless, because “cracking the code” is just not something that the timeline lends itself to.
I still put it around MC- I personally think the Zonai became the Picori- but it isn't as though I'm unwilling to take criticism of that standpoint, and I've never been a proponent of "they don't care about the timeline". It's part of what makes the games so fun honestly.
That was the heart of this video’s argument, so we can completely agree about the timeline existing 😎
I love that the Merger reset theory is holding up.
Good video and I agree for the importance of the timeline.
But when he says there might be a history of destruction before hyrule founding, I don't think that's a good translation, the sentence is vague, he actually simply says there is an history before the founding, but "destruction" is not explicitly stated.
I might be wrong tho (not expert japanese) but thats wierd, and kind of changes the point of the "refounding" I don't think that's what he is talking about.
For sure. I’m not an expert either, story of my Zelda life, haha. But I appreciate that you enjoyed the video and pointed that out!
I don’t believe that Fujibayashi’s comments necessarily mean that the history of Hyrule seen in TotK must take place after the Hyrule we know from games like OoT. He was drawing a line between the concepts of the LAND of Hyrule and the KINGDOM of Hyrule. Just as how Japan was a land filled with many kingdoms before it was an Empire. We forget that after Skyward Sword the Kingdom of Hyrule wasn’t immediately founded. The community just assumes it was because they like simple concepts. Link and Zelda triumph, bing-bam-boom, they immediately found a kingdom. No. It doesn’t work like that. Several generations could have passed. There are suggestions that a kingdom existed in the land of Hyrule before the Hylians were even sent skyward. The ruins in Skyward Sword attest to that. And thanks to Demise, it was a kingdom that fell. There may have been several downfalls, and several reestablishments.
This doesn’t get us any closer to when the game takes place. If anything it opens it up further. But yes, there has always been some idea of a timeline. At least 9 of the games have direct and confirmed continuity between them. And then BotW and TotK has continuity between those two.
I disagree about DLC, though. We are way to close to the Switch’s successor and if they were going to announce DLC, it would have been in the last direct so that it could release with the holidays. Like with Mario Odyssey, I think it is done. The one way this may change is if Switch games are playable on the next console.
Good to see you, Rune! Hope you’re doing well
@@wizcatcheslightning I’m better. I’ll catch up sometime on Discord. I’m headed to sleep for now.
@@Rune_Scholar Sounds good 😎
I like the idea that they are soft rebooting the story. Breath of the Wild mirrors the events of the very first Zelda game (obviously not exactly, but you have open world exploration and you meet an old man at the start of the game that gives you a key item, in that case the sword, in BOTW's case, the paraglider. Tears mirrors the events of Zelda II. So the next in line will be a spiritual successor to A Link to the Past.
But they are not happening at the same time as the first games, the curse of Demise is sort of repeating events in similar ways to the past, but in different ways. Time in the Zelda universe is already tampered with so much that you have all these timeline fractures, which is what makes it hard to pinpoint the exact location of each story.
It seemed to me that TotK mirrors more OoT than _Zelda II._ In fact, I don't recall anything of _Zelda II_ mirrored in TotK.
Subtlety is not the problem. The problem is that, no matter how deep you look, the evidence can seemingly point in any direction you choose to focus on. There is a difference between sublety and a lack of commitment; many stories that people praise for "subtlety" are just a mesh of contradicting ideas. Maybe it is not always bad to have a story without definitive answers, it just can't really have a definitive timeline if so. Every Hyrule timeline theory seems to have just as much counter evidence as they have supporting evidence (generally). Even if we get an unambiguous official timeline stated by the creators, it does not mean much if the content of the games themselves do not align with that supposed timeline. Some TLoZ games seem to be very intentionally set before or after another but others do not and some seem to be reimaginings of previous games and alternate scenarios for the same timeline placement. The idea of the timeline splitting after OoT can solve some issues but it makes absolutely no sense for those branches to then converge into BotW. Whatever the timeline may or may not be, i really do not think the series as a whole even benefits from having a timeline as most games have no narrative connection to each other (aside from a few vague and inconsistent lore connections). It is obvious that the franchise has changed a lot over the years and the lore is not an exception, it is just not feasible to expect everything to fit together. There seems to be no overarching story, just an expanding mythology that seemingly changes every game.
Thank you. Im excited for this games future. IT just feels like we are missing a big something(DLC) . Also something to point out is nintendos retion rate of employes. The same people that created zelda are still in the credits of TOTK. That doesnt happen in this industry. Decades of nerds contemplating a world they've created with seemingly endless resources is a weird reality that we get to live in.
To your point, all of the research I’ve been doing for my latest vid points to exactly what your last statement said.
I don't want a DLC TOTK is already perfect as it is it's 3 times bigger than BOTW it doesn't need a dlc Just focus on the next game instead of wasting time on a dlc.
I think it would be cool if they fleshed out the Ancient Aspect Hero or the dragons more. But if we sacrifice that to get another new Zelda IP in less than 5 years, I’m down
If were imagining a time that has not been told then my theory may be spot on. In the child timeline A soccerer breaks ganon out of the four sword, a older link whi never had a major threat to fight rises to the occasion to fight ganon while the soccerer rips realitys open and summons a giant meteor of darkness and or gloom link is mortaly wounded slaying ganon the master sword is damaged and the cataclysm occurs essentially nukeing hyrule with darkness and soft resetting everything and then some time passes theres zonai tech and magic and then rauru founds a new hyrule as the gloom is mostly seeped to the depths unknown probably cause of zonai purifying the lands
People saying nintendo never cared about the timeline are kind of nuts, considering part of nearly every games promotion at launch has been telling people where it fits in relation to at least one other game in the series.
Yeah, I don’t understand it at all. Makes me feel like a Zelda René Descartes trying to argue on behalf of something that always was
I don't like the idea of "all of this, even the flashbacks, happens so far in the future that it's not really meaningful to ask when it occurs relative to the other entries in the franchise or in which timeline," even if it is the canon answer, because there's no meaningful difference between that and "it's just a reboot".
Before I finished Tears, I wondered if the timeline in the Zelda universe might be cyclical like the Wheel of Time, but that seems unlikely now that I've beaten it.
I really enjoyed the theory that the flashbacks are telling the story of Ocarina of Time in the Downfall Timeline and explain why there should be a split there at all. It comports with the assertion that the timelines merge in the far future, because it's conceivable that some Princess Zelda from both the Adult and Child Timelines might someday experience events that send her back to the flashback era, and this always results in the Downfall Timeline.
It solves the bootstrap paradox, because the "original" Zelda that caused the first loop wouldn't have come from the same future as the end of the stable time loop. And it also explains _how_ the three timelines could have merged.
Fantastic video Wiz, and thanks for sharing some of my words here too.
Of course! You said it best 😎
Honestly, his statement fully has me convinced that its an adult timeline game. Why? In what branch was Hyrule completely wiped out, like, without a trace? Such destruction that there was a history of Hyrule, but it's completely erased? Only one. He didn't outright say where it fits, and the game didn't either, but piece together all the information like you mentioned, and that's what we end up with. Because let me ask something.
When was it ever mentioned or even hinted at by the directors, or said in any way that could imply, that there was a timeline merger? That BOTW and TOTK are at the end of ALL branches? From everything I've seen, there ISN'T anything that supports it, and is simply a fan theory, just like pretty much everything else. Which is okay, but so many people subscribe to the idea of a timeline merger that they've almost misconstrued the idea that it is still only a theory with no confirmation. What I mean by this is people try to shut down others like myself who, honestly, don't buy the unified timeline theory, by saying it IS a thing and that's that. From all the information given, in game, out of game, by directors, and etc, there is more evidence for an adult timeline placement than any other. And this recent interview almost locks that down for me as well.
“I just feel I’ve done everything I can to create fun in that world”
To me that means: “I’m not saying that we’re NOT going to get dlc…..
But I don’t want to make dlc”
Is also good to know that we had the same idea about the timeline as the director of totk.
Cope
@@HipnotikHylian haters gonna hate
TOTK (past history) goes after the Zelda 2 NES on the downfall timeline. After a destruction of hyrule. Link in zelda 2 uses the full triforce to begin a new and this merges the timlines and begins a new Hyrule. Which years later becomes BOTW and the (Present time) TOTK
Masterful video. It’s sad the “timeline isn’t real” and “TOTK flashbacks are pre minish cap” are having a hard time dealing with facts from the game’s developers. But… I’m not shocked 😂
How did OoT Ganondorf exist if he was locked up below the castle 🏰?? I'm screaming 😱 was it all a Hyrulean family propaganda campaign?
I would say that this depends on the context of your question 😅
Thing is, given how radically different the setting of Tears of the Kingdom has been from the rest of the Zelda franchise-to the point that it may as well be an entirely different world-a lot of people, including myself, have a hard time reconciling the events of the game with the timeline as it exists now. The only possibility I can think of is multiverse theory, which I really hope is *not* the case since that trope has been done to death by literally everyone.
It isn't really that hard to justify the refounding theory - even in SS the people of Skyloft barely retain knowledge that the surface exists at all, and this is a closed, protected, insular civilization with technology and record keeping which seems to be at least comparable to what we see in other games. I can't see much more than a few thousand years passing within that span either, considering that temples, springs, etc. have some intact infrastructure remaining. After something like 10,000 years anything on the surface apart from solid megaliths and not maintained/rebuilt would basically be completely gone.
If Link in BOTW was in the shrine for even 500 years there would be a good chance that (assuming Ganon was still confined) that nobody would remember pre-Calamity Hyrule apart from conflicting myths.
I've always found it far more unbelievable that there's never been a dynasty change in over *ten thousand* years of Hyrule's history, Skyward Sword to Breath of the Wild. In terms of pure probability I sincerely doubt that TotK's Rauru is the only time that happened.
If Ganon really is the arbiter of Demise's curse (which is, once again, an assumption we all make and not concrete fact), then when he appears we can only assume the bloodline of Hylia incarnate is present *somewhere* in Hyrule, not necessarily that she wears any crown or title. Or even that she's a woman and named Zelda - one of Hylia's distant descendants can be a Link, for all we know, and/or that the Spirit of the Hero is actually residing in Zelda in that era, to give an unimaginative example.
This leaves the door WIDE open for the ruling family of Hyrule to not need to retain the bloodline of SkSw Zelda (or at the very least they can lie and say they do), and if IRL history is anything to learn from, new dynasties usually revise their history to convince their subjects they're the first and/or original and/or only legitimate ruler anyway.
Fujibayashi seems to be confirming this.
what are your nda’s?
look up the parallel reality timeline, with Fujibayashi saying "Its one of many possibilities" I could see it being a Multiverse type thing
Video i watched mentioned the history of the timeline changing each time a new game came out. Something bout OOT being a retelling of the imprisoning war before it came out.
Is there a video out or are you referencing a forum theory?
Its a video on RUclips! so that makes things easy lol
Have a good day! @@wizcatcheslightning
I get that they have a timeline and that fans want a timeline to, but sometimes maybe that means more splits. For example, i personally believe that Tears of the Kingdom's past is directly after Skyward Sword, and then 10,000 years lster, there's the 1st Calamity, another 10,000 years there's the Great Calamity/Breath of the Wild's past, and finally Tears of the Kingdom.
I believe that this is a separate timeline that is parallel to the original timeline. Skyward Sword had time travel, and like Ocarina of Time, could've caused a timeline break. One that leads to Minish Cap and another that leads to Tears of the Kingdom's past.
The only thing that ever made sense was that the past of TOTK was long after Twilight Princess.
It's not that there isn't a time-line. It's that Nintendo will scrap it at any time if it becomes convenient or stands in the way of gameplay. Which invariably makes lore discussions void.
I think due to castle placement during the zoni time and oot being the same points to that being whats intended. Rito bieng around then explains the murals and the little bird dudes and the sky temple in Twilight Princess. Those things feel intional.
I didn't take it as a contradictory statement. I just assumed Raaru's Hyrule was similar to Windwaker/Spirit tracks
Nice video.
The only thing I give you the side eye on is the "...Japanese story telling doesn't do..." line. I know a lot of stories written by Japanese that are overly aggressive in theme and message. I know a lot of Japanese myths that are REALLY aggressive in theme and message. If I were you I'll walk that back.
But you are right about the NDA and story of Zelda. The problem with the Zelda community isn't Zelda nor the timeline really-- the problem are the ones arguing on behest of the timeline.
I've been with this game my entire life. The first came out when I was two years old and was the first game I played, the first game I beat. There wasn't an argument about timelines until the Skyward Sword. I know of the Majora Mask, Minish Cap, Windwaker feuds, but there wasn't an all out debate about them 'cause each of them could be fashioned to another game and changing the argument, thus mooting the original claim.
The only time when the Timeline got super focused is when Skyward sword happen. Skyward Sword and Wind Waker HD brought in a lot of new people. The thing about new people is that many like to bandwagon. A lot of newbies got behind the "current thing". The timeline was the "current thing" and is just now dying down. The only people that really contested the timeline were those that played the games. I remember-- I was one of them. I remember that same time line off of IGN back in 2003 or 2005, and people made fun of them about it. Nintendo of America just lifted the time line from IGN and called it a day. The arguments for it, all was appeal to authority [Nintendo says so].
I guess What I am saying is--
Yes, you are correct. Don't trust the commercials for Zelda games 'cause most of them will put in whatever to grasp your attention, but just because it borderline lies doesn't mean there isn't a story. That is because of the NDA. So if you want to know the timeline, then just play the games and deduce for yourself.
Well I can’t exactly walk back a video I’ve already published. But I stand by my words when I say that Japanese storytelling is ultimately subtle in its presentation. Western media is certainly capable of this too. It was only during my second reading of The Great Gatsby when I was able to realize that Jordan cheated at golf, or that Jay secretly smuggled alcohol to make his fortune, and his use of the title “old sport” was something he had learned from his deceased benefactor which he used to try and blend into the East Egg crowd.
I think what I was trying to say more was a message that I’ve been trying to say all along in most of my videos. The Zelda series is Japanese. The Hylians have always been unreliable narrators. They only have a sliver of the Truth but not the entire Truth. And King Rauru was not omniscient nor infallible. So it’s foolish to accept his words as the Truth if we can disprove his words with several examples. I’ll definitely flesh this idea out further in a future video once I’ve done enough research and written a script for it, but I do have an idea in mind.
While I didn't like the memory structure again, the story of TOTK is actually really interesting and great.
I think it’s a re-founding. That’s really the only thing that makes sense to me.
Right on! Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm glad to see you read the article and that you pretty much came to the same conclusion that I did. It's so nice to find people that have the same way of thinking as I do with this article. Keep up the great videos!
Yeah, brillaintly put, and accurate to the essentails. Do not discredit what is being told in the story, as much as what is being told to the player. It works a lot like self-enforced NDA, the POINT of artistic exploration is to find the truths you put the pen to the paper FOR. If you just obfuscate some silly fairytale you alread know perfectly, it's not art, it's peek-a-boo. It's pointless for anything but development of very oung children.
And part of the "NDA" is the copyright limbo, like Twitter artists squatting on the license to their own original chracters and presenting a real, organized and govenrmental threat, if a beeg corpurashion "steals their idea". That's also antithetical to ALL art.
I recently put together in text a pretty dense recollection, of how I think this story is tangled in meta-fiction. Both in terms of ripoff, adn "consumer safety" of dealing with offensive topics:
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
The calamity happens in the future. The past with Sonia exists, because every time something disastrous happens, like Zelda dies, she pulls that part of the future away and into her "time" to delay the calamity. Which is exactly the reason WHY Sonia's time follows through INTO "the future", because this time's elements were inserted there. Without Sonia's power, the past ould just be another realm unrelated to the BotW/ totK world.
And that's because it is Scred Realm. Sage Rauru did this same thing, it's ALWAYS been the mechanic by which Zelda timeline works, there's no convergence any more than what always was but people are treating the most recent game with myopia and bias to force into it a time travel explanation copy-pasted from MCU and Skyrim, when if it is copied from ANYWHERE then it's form Back to the Future.
The green effect is accompanied with backwards music because this world FLOWS backwards, that's how Ganondorf was sealed, he was reversed next the passage of time. Similarly gold light of Stasis ALIGNS objects with the passage of time, they don't stop, they just start moving at the same speed as the world moves. Upheaval happens because the pressure of slamming this new world ONTO the Depths is reversed. That's what the blue Sheikah arrows DO, it's a refined form of the Green energy that leaves behind the spillover of Gloom and Malice, like electricity to enriched and depleted uranium with their radiation. IT's a mechanisitc explanation on how Nintendo builds gameplay to begin with, like restoring save-states across TIME in the TIMELINE of your play.
And it's inspired by the 1982 TopCraft Japanese-animated film version of The Flight of Dragons, that particularly infuenced Twilight Princess and TotK, and is without a doubt the origin point where "Zelda was meant to be a sci-fi story". The UFO concept art was probably going to follow along the limestone explanation of dragon flight, transferred into Sheikah tech.
I've had a thought for a long time. Not so much a theory as much as a fun little 'what if' that I never took too seriously. Think about the Triforce. Three triangles, right? Three triangles touching corners to form a larger triangle with a gap in the center. A fourth upside down triangle. And I once played around with the idea of "what if there were a fourth piece of the Triforce that makes it whole?" It could still be looked at as a Triforce, seeing as the inclusion of that missing piece still leaves three corners. It just connects them seamlessly in the middle. I never really got as far as thinking about what purpose this would serve, but it just clicked while watching this video. Allow me to explain:
-There are three pieces of the Triforce, each themselves referred to as a Triforce of their respective ideal, implying it's more about the whole relic being a shape with three corners than it being three pieces.
-There are three timelines.
-A fourth piece of the holy relic is introduced, closing the gap in the middle, unifying the three. This could be the Triforce of Unity.
-Maybe this could come from a 4th god/goddess unrelated to Din, Nayru, and Farore. After all, the LoZ series is no stranger to alluding to further deific entities beyond the main ones standing front and center. We even have a horse god.
-This would allow for a game with a narrative making a 'good' iteration of Ganon (or maybe rather a Ganon at least temporarily okay with being an ally) possible.
-Maybe the creation of the Triforce of Unity, or the discovery of this piece that someone at some time created, is what leads to the timeline merge being possible? This wouldn't even need to have lasting effects on the iconography of the game, seeing how this fourth piece in this narrative could absolutely be just a booster module that burns out and is destroyed after the merge is done, leaving only the Triforce as it's always been known to us as.
There's probably plenty of holes and plenty of angles I haven't even begun to explore for flaws. But I'm open to collaboration on this little idea, because with the strange exclusion of the Triforce and the unexplained merging of the timelines, this is almost starting to feel like the weird idea I previously thought would only be at home in a fanfic is ACTUALLY the idea they're leading up to.
I like your train of thought here! Have you ever looked into the Tetraforce theory?
@@wizcatcheslightning Oooh, no, actually, but that feels like another support for this maybe being an eventual plan. Tetra? WW? Maybe an allusion to that very same theory. I wonder if the theory predates WW?
I'll have to check it out, see how much further this idea has been fleshed out.
Guess we'll be waiting until the Switch 2 releases for Master Mode to come out, huh.
The real question is why doesn’t this masterpiece of a game not have master mode by default already?
@@GoProGamer447 from a game dev view I think they probably didn’t want to have to create a new model and animations for the new horns to attach to every weapon.
Ive always thought that breath of the wild is all the timelines being merged after Hyrule Warriors
Thanks for the video! Very much appreciate the breakdown of the interview and re-affirmation that they do care about the timeline. I'll have to admit, i had my doubts even a couple months in regarding the founding and whatnot (got some friends who would deny the timline...) but your other videos with evidence about the sages, gerudos, ritos, and temples of time all helped put my mind at ease about the lore fitting. Definitely taking this as confirmation of zonai Rauru's ignorance thinking he was first.
Hey, thanks for the comment! Happy to hear that
but at this point I rather Nintendo starts focusing on the next big Zelda game.
Can't understand why people want more of this game, since we have milked this world dry to the extreme at this point. Totk is already huge, and also the common DLC concepts were already exploited in Botw's DLC, like the master mode, the master sword rush trials, etc. But, to each its own.
Now, regarding the timeline, this only settles Totk's position as in the future of the previous timelines, but it doesn't confirm the ugly merging or dragonbreak theory everyone seems to be accepting nowadays.
There has always been a timeline in mind by Nintendo it was us fans that started putting the pieces together, I mean look at oot and windwaker Ganondorf is sealed but since Link is sent back in time it leaves the timeline without a hero and if you play ww you can tell that Ganondorf is the exact same from oot even the game if you play attention to its story and characters. Also the timeline makes all the games have a connected purpose and I am all for that.
@@GoProGamer447 I'm all for the timelines too, I love the lore.
My point is that the merging of the timelines that people are accepting nowadays is not canonical
This goes back to my “give equal credit to what is and is not being said” statement. In the ENG/JPN of Link’s christening ceremony, all 3 split timelines are acknowledged by Zelda/Revali/Daruk. That is what’s being said. What’s not being said right there is that “all of those timelines cannot be acknowledged without a merge”.
@@wizcatcheslightning that line was probably inserted as a cameo or easter egg to the community, for us to insert the game (Botw) in whatever timeline we choose.. that was Nintendo's intention regarding Botw's place in the timeline. But it has been interpreted as a merging evidence, something to which I strongly disagree.
My point is, we don't need such a huge cataclism: A dragonbreak would imply a huge cataclysmic event similar to the DC Crisis at Multiple Earths event. That's a lot to add to the canon just for a mere reference and some clothing-weapons.
There are far better and simpler explanations. I have one myself, but I will make a video about it instead of just keep posting it on youtube comments.
@@rGGdom Well the Nintendo of JPN website also supports a merging conclusion by placing BOTW/TOTK at the end of all three timelines. But yeah, make a video. I would be curious to hear you out. I’ll sub to your channel.
7:36 Idk how versed you are in Japanese, I'm not, but both on Google and DeepL I got something closer to "it is possible that there is a history of the founding of Hyrule, but that it was once destroyed before that." Yours sounds more focused on the kingdom itself being founded only after Hyrule was destroyed before.
Not terribly versed in Japanese specifically, but well versed in how language nuance works (from studying 5 or so languages). Regardless, my focal point wasn’t to focus on what I believe (I just threw that interview into DeepL). My focus of the video was to just say that “hey, Nintendo focuses on gameplay before story but they also don’t let gameplay dictate the story. The story isn’t just thrown together. It’s connected. And the timeline is real. Forget what I believe about it. You can no longer debate that the timeline isn’t a thing.”
10 minutes to say, "I'm right, you're wrong."
The point trying to be made against a timeline is simple, if ineloquent. The non sequential games do not necessarily adhere to a strict linear story that histories the world. It's more like a, ahem, legend, that is being told all throughout history and time with many narrators having many versions. A bit like religion. Most denominations of Christianity are very similar with some putting more emphasis on the importance of certain people or events. Catholics and Mother Mary for example. Zelda games, with exception, could be interpreted similarly. The making of a time-line in and of itself was controversial and from what I remember, they refused the idea of one for a long time. Of course there are sequential events. The argument against it is that, it doesn't matter that much and the current, should be allowed to stray from whatever predicates it. Which as a lore nerd, bothers me, but it is a valid take on the whole thing. It's not that there is no time-line, it's an argument against its relevancy. As the time-line comes into question with every release and the fact that there are 3 different ones just to make it all make sense, leans heavily toward it being an unimportant afterthought by its creator. People are simply echoing this point of view.
@@animalmother9143 you don’t read my comments 😂
Lots of media illiterate individuals seething over there never being a timeline
@@wizcatcheslightning Yeah that's fair, I might be giving people too much of the benefit of the doubt here. I would like to believe that's the sentiment, but that doesn't account for the very real actual idiocy teeming in comments sections.
The fact that it is a Legend makes me think these stories are at best loosely connected.
Always remember the game gives Rauru dialogue that specifically shows he can be wrong (his statement that Zelda's from a world where she hadn't traveled back in time). He's an unreliable narrator.
Exactly
lol at Nintendo justifying how lazy the depths were
Yeah sure but they could still give us a free hard mode update.
Elden rings dlc isn't even out yet. People need to chill
Deniers: "there's no timeline"
Wiz Catches Lightning: "no u"
The Uno Reverse of all Uno Reverses…
Its very simple. Hyrule is going to face the brink of extinction multiple times. Merging the timelines meant that things got erased and replaced to make all three work.
That meant that Hyrule itself would also start over. Naming it "Hyrule" was likely Goddess interference.
I think you can fit tokt and botw in the timeline, the foundation could easily happens after the era of chaos ( its the only one in which a game doesn't happen , would explain the inteopers and lack of zonai also ) but the only thing keeping that from happening is Ganondorf, if the producers just used the same origin from oot or posterior i could see it working just fine , but is not the case, they clearly went for a different path .
So i personally see both last games a just a soft reboot of the franchise , something like lord of shadows for Castlevania.
One thing i take into consideration, in terms of the timeline, are the armor descriptions. Clothes worn by the previous heroes of Hyrule are often called 'legends' implying that they are stories that have been carried through the ages over a long course of history. Something that another youtuber pointed out is that its possible that the micro timelines repeated so many times that now the macro timeline is now repeating many years later (the stories of ganon in botw and totk taking place ten thousand years ago), and botw is a spiritual reboot of zelda 1 and totk is zelda 2 repectively, hence why we have very little mention of the triforce. My guess (as well as the Tuber i was haphazardly quoting) is that the next game will be a prequel similar to alttp and give us the story of the triforce in this 'new' timeline.
That would be amazing. I wish they would just remake ALTTP but in 3D. Who was the RUclipsr?? I’m curious!
B-WHERE is the youtuber that speculated what i said above
@@wizcatcheslightning that would be amazing, seeing how they rebooted links awakening, i wouldnt mind having that style
@@eternalabyss101 oh yeah I saw that vid and enjoyed it 😂
Im all for theorizing that this foundation of Hyrule takes places after a massive cataclysm that was possibly also the cause of the convergence.
The wild games are part of the reunification timeline. (Except AOC which split it again lol)
Starting to wonder if Tears is actually just another game not a sequel to breath they kinda mess up the timeline and the Sheka are basically gone replaced by a even older race so what if this while taking place in a similar world is a different timeline
To me, totk doesn’t need a dlc to be complete. Some people think every single detail of a story needs to be fleshed out and there can be nothing left up to the imagination, like where Krass went. That’s very boring to be spoon fed and not be able to be imaginative, I LOVE mystery. Remember: if they spelled everything out, your favorite Zelda theory Channel wouldn’t exist, because it wouldn’t be needed.
Agreed the game is too damn good and complete to need dlc. I am not a huge fan of dlc because it just feels like filler content that should have been in the base game unless it’s something big and crazy.
Timeline deniers are in denial.
I feel like we aren't getting any DLC at this point.
@@michaelbowman6684 yeah this was sadly confirmed :/
I think that botw and totk take place very far in the future to other zelda games that some events happened again(founding of hyrule and imprisoning war)
We think alike here 😎
fubashy or whatever just confirmed the dragon break theory
@@Og-McQueen source?
@@wizcatcheslightning none I'm joking but at the same time not because he specified us to be open to other timeline placements rather than after skyward sword and after minis cap
WHERE
IS
KASS
I'm so glad they're not outright denying the timeline. I wouldn't have minded if they retconned it and restarted, but knowing that technically everything that happened before botw still happened is nice.
I'm glad we got confirmation that Zelda still has a timeline.
Best part, this leaves open the possibility of a Zelda game that explores Hyrule's endless cycle brought on by Demise.
Man I can’t tell you how pumped I would be if Ghirahim and Demise were brought back 😆
@wizcatcheslightning man, that would be amazing
Hmmmm I like the way you think
New sub
First of all...Dark souls is horrible example of typical japanese narrative. Japan relies a lot of over explanation a over complex exagerates things happening without caring how much sense it can make.
And for the rest..who cares? The official Zelda timeline appeared in 2013 or so to shut up annoying whining fans that never stop asking about. And to be honest,who cares? The name is The Legend of Zelda, legends are vague things with different interpretations dependinf on the culture or the time period...and thats exactly what this games are all about for me.
Yes, there's obvious sequels and theres succesions of events. But at the end of the day im sitting my ass to play and enjoy this saga of masterpieces and im not gonna bother about any frustrated fans rant.
Calm down, guys....and enjoy what we have after 40 years of incredible videogames.
Hey, since timeline discussion seems to be back in full swing again, I have an idea that I've been trying to get discussion on but to no avail. I don't know how much time you've got, and I know I'm not an established channel, but I've spent a lot of time looking into something that most of the fandom seems to be in agreement on that I've found some major flaws in. I want to try making a video on it, but I just haven't found the time or energy to do so. Let me know if you're interested in talking about it.
Sure thing 😎
@@wizcatcheslightning Thank you.
Essentially, I've found problems with the idea that the events of OOT lead up to the Imprisoning War described in ALTTP. If you read the Japanese manual of ALTTP, you'll find tons of contradictions indicating that the battle after Link's supposed defeat in OOT has entirely different events take place at a different time and place. I won't go over all of it, but one key detail is that the Master Sword had not even been confirmed to have existed when the Imprisoning War took place. The differences are many and large enough to throw the official narrative into question.
I've tried to talk with people about this, but nobody wants to even consider it.
@@SarafYT I was recently looking into that specific stuff for some research on a current project. The best answer I can come up with is that the lore of the Master Sword wasn’t fleshed out yet, and we received more exposition to it in the form of OOT retconning its origins better.
@@wizcatcheslightning That's not what the problem is, though. Master Sword lore isn't pertinent to the issues, it's the fact that the Master Sword was not found at all prior to the IW. There was no Hero of Time in the IW. There was no Link to be defeated either because the battle to seal Ganon happened as soon as he invaded the Castle. There is no retcon of Master Sword lore, there's a discrepancy as to whether or not two battles are the same battle. By treating them as two seperate events, which is what all descriptions seems go suggest, there is a change in the timeline that could fix some problems.
@@SarafYT what’s the IW?
@calebmob bro you sound so mad lmao theories are fun and part of the Zelda community/culture. What are you so pressed about?
Excellently said
Wiz catches the clown🤡
Not only should they have said that around BotW but considering how most of the stuff is seemingly half hazard or blantantly just throws out stuff to do it own thing.
Should be in the game not need L tier theories to inhale cope.
More cope than liking your own comment? 😯
To make it simpler for the dumb dumbs.
- Zelda skyward sword and the next Zeldas happened,
- A merger of the timelines at the end of the three timelines happened and this event destroyed Hyrule somehow.
- Rauru and Sonia are re-building Hyrule again, but have no knowledge of the past before them, so for them, they are the founders of Hyrule.
- Thousands of years happened, The Calamity shows up. (We don't know if the Calamity showed up before this, but it is implied this was not the first time since the Sheika prepared in advance building the divine beasts and sheika temples to train the next Hero for the coming of the Calamity, so we don't know for how long the Calamity has been showing up.)
- 10 thousand years passed, The Calamity returns, kicked Link's ass and Zelda put to sleep the calamity.
- 100 years later, BOTW starts
- 7 years later, TOTK starts.
Oh wow so in Totk it explains that the timelines merged! Wow I guess I was a dumb dumb for not finding the NPC/story quest that explicitly explains that a merger happened, I mean its not like someone made that up to COPE and try and make sense of a clearly broken timeline right? It . . . It is in the game right?? Like you guys didn't just make that up?? Right?? I mean a timeline merging event would be a huge deal and there would be somekind of reference to it somewhere right???
"- A merger of the timelines at the end of the three timelines happened and this event destroyed Hyrule somehow."
this part makes no goddamn sense
@@GenMars its almost like it wasn't explained by anyone in the game and is just pure COPIUM because there is no possible way that totk/botw could fit into any one timeline from before.
@@calebmon In BOTW memory while Zelda "celebrates" the appointed knight position on Link, she mentions reference to all the timelines hinting a merger of sorts.
Also with out need to point out the merger, we see races from different timelines together, such as Rito and Zora. That alone already tells us there was a merger at some point.
The names of the Divine beasts also point out to a merger of heros that existed in different timelines into one.
So yeah, the hints were layed down all over the place.
Like the narrator explained, westerners need to be feed spoon the story but in Japanese sorytelling, you put the pieces together by playing the game, talking to the npcs and the story through visual story telling such as locations in hyrule, naming conventions and the sort, so you made the point from the narrator, unless someone takes your hand and tells you what's going on, you won't be able to find out on your own and Zelda games have never worked like that.
@@GenMars That's what they hinted, will we see this in future game installments? Maybe or maybe not.
Fujibayashi mentioned the world got possibly destroyed at some point that not even Rauru or Sonia have knowledge of the previous Zeldas or the legend of the Hero.
The evidence is Rauru having no idea about the name Link, now previous Zelda games always talk about a legendary hero. Rauru has no idea of any hero, further proving that any knowledge of the past is lost.
Now they mentioned they merged the timelines for BOTW to exist, so its logical that the merger had to do with whatever happened that all knowledge of the previous time before Rauru and the Zonai had to go hand in hand.
My question is: Do we deserve multiple Ganondorfs or do the timeline theories disagree?
By my count, there’s been 3 total as of totk
@@wizcatcheslightning I've missed quite a few games before BotW and TotK.
Where is the third one?
@@Aladato I’ll list them:
1. OOT Gandondorf (same guy in WW, TP, and ALTTP. He dies at the end of TP.)
2. Four Swords Adventures Ganondorf
3. TOTK Gandondorf
@@wizcatcheslightning I see, I didn't play Four Swords Adventures.
From what I had heard it was a "Ganon" and not Ganondorf, but I'm not sure why the difference, even if there is no human form.
@@Aladato I didn’t either. It’s a tough game to find these days. But the game does mention a Ganondorf. The difference can be found in the names, actually. Not being cheeky here, just informative!
The suffix “dorf” is German for “man”. So Ganondorf means “Ganon man”.
Whereas Ganon is Ganondorf’s boar demon form.
TLDR;
Ganon = Pig Demon who has Triforce of Power
Ganondorf = human form of Ganon
08:41 based weeb material appreciator
You know it 😎👉👉
I thought what Fujibayashi said was obvious. It's the only way to fit what the games said with what they said about BotW/TotK being at the end of the timeline.
Not settled in the least. Sorry, my friend.
One video at a time. The koi must swim upstream, and even up the waterfall, to become the dragon.
The theory that I've heard that I would love to be the truth. Is that Botw and TotK are the start of the true timeline. And from now one. Just like BotW and TotK did. The games will retell parts of the previous games. All the games that came before are Legends that have been told and retold for generations and therefore differ from what really happened. Which is why sometimes the timelines or even the games don't make much sense (looking at you Windwaker with your fish that evolved into birds because the world flooded....)
Just like how Rauru who we've come to know in the Legends as a Hylian Sage. Who turns out to be a Zonai Sage and King. I can't be sure if skyward sword is supposed to be a Legend or a true tale. But I know (or at least want to believe) that's from now on. Every Zelda game is going to have its own story. And within that story, little pieces of previous Legends (the games before BotW and TotK) will be explained better.
I think this would be an amazing way to redo the timeline and make sure all the games and stories actually fit together and fit well.
I think this is the best “they are all just legends” explanation I’ve read so far. Thanks for sharing
@@wizcatcheslightning thank you for actually reading it haha. I'm quite passionate about the games and really value lore to an unhealthy extent. So I really hope this is what they're going with haha.
The last few sentences of the paragraph before the last one is exactly my thoughts as well.
Folks who thought these 2 games were in the CT got rolled; folks who thought the Zonai Kingdom came before OoT got rolled.
It's time to increase scrutiny on those who got it wrong and lift up those who got it right. The truth demands it.
No dude, it's just a video game series. People don't have to be right, theorizing isn't that serious.
If we were discussing Mario, I would agree with that sentiment.
one thing that i or anyone knows is what planet does the zelda games take place and don't say hyrule seen as hyrule is just a kingdom