How I got PROPER "room-filling sound" with TWO SUBWOOFERS
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- Опубликовано: 16 мар 2023
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🎵 Song IDs? Playlists of all music heard in this video - and other videos - can be found on PATREON: / johndarko
👉🏻 As seen in this video...
GoldenEar Forcefield 30
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Samsung 'The Frame' 2022 55"
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Sonus faber Lumina II
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Solid Steel SS6 speaker stands
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SVS 3000micro
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NAD M10 V2
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Zu Soul 6
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Cambridge Audio EVO 150
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IKEA Vindum rug
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Re.born Halo headphone stand
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👉🏻 "Room-filling sound"?
Sonos OneSL
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Logitech Z207
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Harman Kardon Citation One
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👉🏻 What I use to measure...
Room EQ Wizard
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Umik-1 microphone
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👉🏻 Further information on the 'why'...
📖 www.svsound.com/blogs/subwoof...
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📺 • Two subwoofers vs one
#subwoofer #bass #hometheater
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Развлечения
When it comes to bass, you don't want a flat response, that tends to sound bad. Human listening preference trends towards a bass bump, that starts around 150-200Hz, and gradually rises until 20-30Hz. Of course, there is some variance with rooms. It is important to look at something like a waterfall plot, because if there is ringing, you don't want to accentuate that. Removing a bit of energy around 80-100Hz, as shown in your measurements, is common in residential rooms.
Thank you very much John! You're the first channel to truly tackle this curiosity straight on, in a practical and fun way. I have Klipsch Heresy IV speakers paired to a single REL S/510. Together, they're simply fabulous. I've debated the need for a matching sub pair, but had always thought it would be more of an "icing on the cake" scenario. As a result, I'm focused on adding a quality DAC instead in the same price range as a second S/510 (Denifrips Venus II). Your candid, practically-minded comments have reinforced my thinking in that regard, and for that, I thank you.
I agree. Using more subs is not about gettibg more bass, but getting better and more consistent base in all relevant listening positions.
I'm with you on this. I had to install 3 subs to get the same bass in all the listening positions. It's not fair that only I get the best sound in the room!
Two subwoofers for me [REL Carbon Special]. My speakers are full range down to 20Hz and the subs still made a huge difference. Great video BTW you are becoming one of my favourite audio reviewers.
Use of a subwoofer enhances the sound "picture". The addition of a 2nd sub addresses the issue of "room loading". A 2nd sub smooths out how the music "energy" fills the room, lessening nulls. I envy your new room, John, keep up your amazing task.
Agree! I added two REL Tzero,s last year and they make such a positive difference to the listening experience.
My listening room is small and treated- ish and having two RELs seems to make the room work better.
Never had subs before so setting up was exciting, scary, confusing, and logical all at the same time.
Ended up with RELs recommendations, 15 clicks on both crossover and gain but still playing with position. Phase setting? Who knows, can't really tell but perhaps one day that will become clearer.
Great video.
Hello John, I love watching your video’s, but have 1 question; as I am color blind, could you use more contrasting colors in your graphs? Now the lines look the same for me. Hope this is possible? Keep up the good work!
I use a pair of REL t5 (one is t5i the other t5x) that I use to fill out the low end with a pair of Klipsch Heresy II's. I started with the single t5i and while I thought it improved the overall sound of the system I always felt like it was lacking in some way. Adding the second sub helped make the sound more natural and calls less attention to the subwoofer. Basically your description of the difference between 1 sub vs 2 is exactly what I experienced in my room. And yes, adding a second subwoofer for about $600 did more to improve the sound of my system than any DAC, preamp, or amp swap could have. That said, going from a solid state amp to a tube amp did also make a big difference in the overall presentation (sweeter, more engaging sound) if not as dramatic a difference as adding two subs.
I truly love listening to and watching your videos. As a newbie to audio, they have definitely changed my life. Thank you for doing what you do.
Excellent commentary. I added a second sub as well about a month ago and the difference was just as you described. the sound is smoother and fuller. it will be my standard set up from now on in any larger room!
Great video John. Love the data in the reviews, and the music tips.
Nicely done, John. Love how you communicate sound- and in the end, it really is subjective and a “season to taste” endeavor. Thnx!
Perfect timing - and thanks for the focus on music over home theater. For a month or 2 I've been thinking about a 2nd sub for my 12x19x8 room. An order was placed within an hour for another modest Elac Sub 1010.
Extremely interesting video. Lot of hard work putting this together. Thanks John
Really good video, timed great as I bought a sub last week for music listening (only). I’ve been playing with location, gain, frequency cut, without any measuring, purely what sounds best to me. It’s good to see the measurement aspect too, although you (correctly for me) pay more attention to what you like. Love your videos, thanks for keeping us entertained and informed.
I think this is your best video to date. I remember in a video a couple years ago you said you weren’t into subwoofers. I began the hifi journey a couple of years ago. It’s nice to see you growing. I feel I’m in a place of understanding to now fully appreciate what you’re explaining.
Aha, I was listening and thinking it's very similar to my experience of using 2 subs, but it's hard to describe... And then you said it's as if the whole room is playing the bass, and I think you nailed it there! With two subs, I think positioning of either is less critical, and there's less room effect on the bass. Oh, and yes, I've always had a sub (or two) in my system, and it's not really about "more bass" - I just think it gives a more open overall sound.
I was going to contribute to this thread, but you've kinda covered it in your comment.
😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮
It's a delight to see/hear your sub enlightenment 😉
And, consistently excellent and enjoyable work across the spectrum, many thanks
Thank you for another journey. Taking us through the setup of your new home has been filled with information that "I believe" is real world listening worthiness.
One additional bonus of information for this episode would be to include the results with an added comparison of a single larger sub of the same brand.
An additional needed mention is that taking it a little easier with your health has offered us so much useful information in a short time. Thanks again from Chicago.
I like to use a custom pink noise generator and the RTA in REW to get the subs dialed in. It's a lot quicker, and easier process. You can also finely dial in the subs placement with that. I change the FFT length to 8k on the RTA so the graph changes more in real time.
I think it's ludacris that those subs don't have variable phase control or a polarity switch usually mislabeled as "phase".
*Polarity* vs *Phase* what's the difference?
John! As a Mountain Goats lifer, it's awesome to see you feature them on your channel. Bleed Out is such a fun record!
Also the fact that you and JD have the same initials, is not lost on anyone haha
My dad recently got into budget hifi, and I gifted him my second subwoofer to get him started. At the time I was also trying to clean up my room and reduce the amount of gear. Well… of course the idealist in me has regrets. Having a second subwoofer is really nice. I might have to do some subwoofer shopping in the near future. The funny thing is that subwoofer I gifted was a nice SVS that blends beatifully with monitors. When I was using it you couldn’t tell the bass wasn’t coming from the speakers. When I visit my parents my dad has that subwoofer blasting, way higher than the speakers, shaking the whole house 😂. Oh well, he’s enjoying it.
Really like the new approach here! Awesome approach and video
Outstanding review of an outstanding amplifier! New levels of image clarity too!
Your previous dips into subwoofer stuff motivated me to add an 8 inch subwoofer to my near field (1.5 metre) office audio setup. I have reduced the acoustic resonance of a two-drawer filing cabinet by applying self-adhesive, bitumastic, automotive damping panels to the cabinet. Tuning involves opening the drawers from time-to-time to further dissipate resonance. 🙂The audio on your channel has been v. useful as, even on RUclips, it takes a deeper dive into bass than most. Cheers.
Two subs (or three or four lol) is a game-changer. I run dual SVS PB-2000’s and it’s awesome. I would only consider using a single sub if the listening space was for one person. Great video John!!
Well said, I just added a second sub to my LS 50 Metas and wow, after tuning them in it was like getting new speakers, bigger room filling sound. Thank!
Lol, you have to admire the dedication. 17 minutes 28 seconds to deliver the ROOM-FILLING SOUND punchline. Amazing video as always, and the green of the room treatment looks SO good!
John, you have been on a roll with this series of posts from your Portugal listening space. All have been relevant to me in that I installed Dirac Live via Mini DSP Studio just after the new year. Game changer in my listening space. This video gave me the hair-brained idea of taking a pair of so-so mid-fi speakers (like the 1980's Bose 301s I have lying about), integrate subwoofer(s) and run Dirac Live. I might do that just for grins and giggles.
As always the ranty bits are some of the best bits. Thank you John
Totally agree!!!! I own a pair of 805D3 HEGEL 190 and TWO RELS510 And i improved the sound of my listening room
Thanks man! Always learning from your videos!
Small observation, comment: Thank you for the “AD BREAK” segment. Tastefully done within the program context.
I added a REL HT1003 to my system about 3 weeks ago and the difference is amazing it fills the room with music and much fuller sound
This video is an Audiophile PSA for those wondering "why" a pair of subs. Great simple video with a nice explanation of how it sounds different with a pair vs. a single sub.
Thank you for putting everything in perspective! I'm saving for my KEF KC62.
Great video, John. I’ve been a true believer in two subs since 2000, when I got my first home theater (5.1) system. Later the system got reduced to 2 channel stereo, but the subs remained until 2022; had to sell them to downsize for a move from Texas to Mexico. I feel they added a balance to the sound, especially in a large room.
Keep these kind of vids coming. Really like where you've been heading
One song that you should definitely consider to test the dynamics of the speaker - and especially the details of a subwoofer would be 'Dreaming in Colour' - The Art of Noise, but from 'The Seduction of Claude Debussy' album. Tested it this morning after adjusting an EQ using REW and wow, the difference is phenomenal!
Great video, John, as always. You asked for some bass test tracks from viewers, so here you go. The two bass test tracks I use the most are “Lover’s Rock” by Sade (just after the 1:00 mark) and “Doing It Right” by Daft Punk. The reason is not only do they have super low bass, but each one hits three different low frequencies. This not only allows me to test for low frequency response, but if I don’t have the sub(s) in a good spot in the room, then one of the low frequencies will be over emphasized, while another will barely be audible due to room nodes. I’ll move the sub(s) around until I get decent, balanced bass at each of the three frequencies and then I know I have good sub placement.
Some other tracks I use include “Gosh” by Jamie XX, “Do You…” by Miguel, “Royals” by Lorde, “No Difference” by Everything But The Girl, “Receiver” by Tycho, “Raingurl” by Yaeji, and “They Came In Peace” by Traquility Bass. For acoustic bass, I use “So What” by Miles Davis. Enjoy!
@Ken Coleman
Excellent list. 👍
REW has a room wizard. Put in the dimensions of the room. Move the main speakers into the positions and move the subs around in the virtual room watch the frequency curves change. I used it for my room and it's spot on. Saved me humping two 50Kg subs around.
My findings exactly agree with yours. I added one KEF KC62 to my KEF LS50 Wireless II. The improvement was massive. But no matter what I did, I could always hear where the sub was. Once I added the second KC62, used the app to compare subs in mono versus subs in stereo, a room filling result was obtained and the position of the subs, raised and right next to the KEF S2 stands, integrated the subs with the satellites in a very pleasing way. My integrating track is R. Strauss Festliches Präludium, Olivier Latry (organ) Andris Nelsons (conductor) Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (Deutsche Grammophon) I play it from qobuz
John, thank you for an excellent channel.
21 years ago I bought a pair of B&W CDM 1NT’s, a single B&W Matching Sub, and a higher end Denon Amp. Of course after 21 years the system has started to sound a bit thin, so I started by replacing the Denon with a Schiit stack: Modi Multi-bit DAC, Saga S Pre, and the Vidar 2. What a difference.
But the Sub just didn’t sound right anymore, either.
I realized that its internal amp must have lost a bit of punch, too. So I bought 2 Rel’s, placed them on the outside of the bookshelf speakers, and wow, the system sounds so much better. I set the crossovers on the subs just above where the B&W’s drop off at -3db, and the Mid’s sound fuller, the bass is faster and more defined, and the listening experience is just more enjoyable now.
Anyway, 2 is the way to go. My system has never sounded better…. Thanks for the great channel!
very relevant for me right now. I am currently using a new (to me) set of Lumina II's, and am trying to nail down the bass with my sub. its been a lot of fun tweaking the available setting to find the 'sweet spot'. but what i am find is the most significant factor is the song or album itself. all of the various recordings come with different levels or quality of bass, so I find myself adjusting the subs levels again at the start of each new track or album. otherwise songs can have either too much or too little bass for me in my room. lots of fun and i'm loving the Lumina II's. thanks as always for the informative video!
2 subs are optimally placed in oppositely mirrored positions of the room (at least in a rectangular enclosed room) So midpoints of opposing walls or diagonally opposite corners. (Floyd Toole) But in your Lisbon room with openings to the rest of the house its basicslly trial and error...
Great and interesting stream. I totally agree with your outcomes and insights . make a lot of sense. thanks
Good experiment John. One major issue is that’s this subwoofer has no phase adjustment. None. It is virtually impossible to properly integrate a sub without adjusting phase. Playing with this should be your next step in your subwoofer learning journey.
I have learned a lot with my system, which has changed a lot but seen many iterations including an M10 with dual subs and Lumina 2’s.
Because you have the M10, you should also experiment with running Dirac calibration in a setup optimized for two subwoofers. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Hi, apologies in advance. There’s a knob that allows for phase adjustment, right? Care to explain? 😊
Great exploration. This is what we need to do - explore sound in different situations and locations. Sound helps us bridge the distance between here and there…
Excellent video! Even without the physics etc, the most convincing video I’ve watched on the benefits of dual subs. 🙏🏼
Thanks for the wonderful video. I'm really loving these sound exploration videos (room treatments, subs, etc.). It's also rather topical to my current situation! I am considering adding 1 and possibly 2 subs to my main system in a large room. My speakers are semi full range, they do dip into the mid 30hz range. I'm looking at 1-2 REL T9/X to fit the bill.
A few tracks that come to mind I use to gauge bass performance and reach.
Aphex Twin - CHEETAH7B
Boards of Canada - Turquoise Hexagon Sun
Nils Frahm - Some
James Blake - Limit to Your Love
Mogwai - Helps Both Ways
Caribou - All I Ever Need
The Smile - The Opposite
Bill Callahan - Jim Cain (love how the drums sound on this recording)
Kevin Morby - Cut Me Down
Jonathan Wilson - Riding the Blinds
A most illuminative, and in my case timely, video. Thanks John.
I have a KEF KC62, formerly used with some ProAcD2Rs, but these last few days I’ve been faffing, tweaking, tinkering and generally going mad trying to align the K62 to my more recent speakers, a pair of Tannoy Legacy Eatons. In short, I gave up. The sub has returned to its surround sound role in my AV system, run in parallel with my two channel.
Nonetheless, your beautifully shot and delivered piece brought me a smidgeon of sanity in reminding me of some other considerations, namely: patience, room EQ, stand mount speakers, one or two subs et al, factors I will do well to remember next time I try my sub in my 2channel set up.
Regards, and thanks.
The mix of impressions and taking measurements is very well done. I am still learning to dial in subs using REW myself. In my experience, taking measurements gives you a far better picture of what is actually going on, so you can make adjustments that you could not have thought about otherwise.
The video i have been waiting for :) After having 2 subs in my stereosystem i will never go without again.. Does not matter if the speakers are small og big. It's allways better with two well dialed subs. I have two Forcefield 3 now(bought after your review). And they are just brilliant as music subs. And like you say.. with two the texture is better, less boomy. :)
I got the same conclusion: two subs.
Same here love it
Just when I thought I could get away with just one... 🙆♂️
Those room treatment panels look great back there. Excellent video
Strongly suspect dip around 60Hz with 80Hz crossover point is due to phase cancellation between mains and sub(s). I suspect that if you could phase shift the sub(s), the graph would flatten or even wind up with a peak around 60Hz. The other option would be to only high pass above crossover to mains -- thus reduced risk of out of phase near crossover frequency. Also, such "unloading" of the mains would allow them to be more accurate above the crossover point -- because they would not forced to overlay upper bass over the cone travel of lower base. Think 90Hz riding on top of 40Hz...
I added a 2nd sub (2 x RSL Speedwoofers) to my setup a year ago and I can’t go back.
I tuned by ear and my preferred setup is one sub in the front and the second sub in the back of the room diagonal from the front sub.
The sound stage is improved and there are no bass holes. I am firm in the dual sub camp. Adding a 2nd sub to my setup is the best audio upgrade I ever made. 2.2 FTW!
Yes. My system finally sounds right now that I added a second Polk 10" powered sub. I spent several afternoons adjusting the crossovers, gains, and position of the subs. My old Altec EQ has a subsonic filter, so I set it to around 22-25hz. That really cleaned up the bass from the powered subs and now it's detailed and punchy! Im very happy with two subs!
only people that never had stereo subs say that "bass is not directional", you absolutely need stereo subs.
I'm here because I'm wrestling with the idea of adding a second sub to my system, which currently has a single Polk Audio HTS12 sub. I was hoping that I wouldn't need to, but judging by the comments, looks like I do.🙆♂️
Hi, enjoyable content again and thanks for it. I've been in the same room for 30 years, the last 15 with an EPOS ELS subwoofer, incidentally with more controls. My issue with subwoofer sound continues in my new sound set up. I replaced my hifi stand (which was stabilised by my vinyl and cd collection so weighed close to a tonne, on spikes to stainless floor pods) by a 20kg steel stand spiked and loaded with aluminium plates individually spiked as shelves with auto deadening sheets stuck to them. Overall, something like, with equipment, 100kgs. Pleasantly surprised by the nice sound I got from my MA Studio speakers which are far more musical than reviewers granted them - though not as amazing and overarching as my previous set up, it's far more room/family friendly. But as before - the sub is the elephant in the room. The issue is where you sit. All very well pointing to the sweet spot. I agree with you; you can vastly improve the output of stand mount speakers with little true bass in one place, but move off-axis and it's boomy, painful and wholly unmusical. My system is under my desk in a corner of the room. I can't have the subwoofer on whilst I sit there because the characteristics change drastically from the sweet spot listening position. I'm not spending money on tuning my room having agreed to reduce my hifi presence from its 30 year reign. But now, what if 2 smaller subs replaced one and were forward facing - go with that?? I need something wife proof. My EPOS sits across the room facing the babies, is unobtrusively hidden by a table above it and suited me till you introduced this question. Venture on please, guide me here.
Appreciate this one. Thanks.
My experience mirrors yours. I added a pair of REL subs to my Magnepan setup and the effect was a noticeable increase in enjoyment and engagement over a single sub.
To blend the sub: Thanks to You by Boz Scaggs. Room 335 by Larry Carlton. Everybody Here Wants You by Jeff Buckley. Sahara by Joe Satriani. Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones.
I've been a lifelong Basshead as far as car audio goes, so having a sub in my home system was never a question. But this year I moved to a place too small for surround sound so I leaned into Stereo only. I have a pair of old but awesome Maggie's (Magnepan) so I HAD to add a subwoofer but it never sounded right. I added a second, cheap Polk and the difference was night and day! After turning them down I found that it does indeed fill out the room and they sort of disappear!! And that's with an old Infinity 12" sub and a cheap 10" Polk! I'm coming into some money soon so this review has solidified that I would rather do 2 smaller but high quality subs for home listening. I will still do 1000 watts on two 12"s in my car but for home, less is more and this review shows that.
This is a Test - A bass test!
Driftmachine - Memories of the Lakeside
Clock DVA - The Konstuctor
Adrian Sherwood - Xplanation (More of a speaker jogging run)
Rhythm & Sound - Boss Man (Repeat as there are x2 bass volumes which alternate, good imho for fine tuning subs)
Creation Rebel - Chemical Specialist (you have to turn this one up )
Raime - Quarter Turns Over Living Line album
I have tested these with my x2 Rel TX5s
Brilliant content as always John 👍👍👍 nice to see someone who so into audio and insightful.
You mentioned in a number of you’re videos recommended listening,of which I have subsequently brought.
So my suggestion to you is check out Elfi. Some awesome stuff,like a modern version of Kraftwerk. Sure they would be cracking on the stuff you test,especially now you have you’re room treated.
Keep up the great work😀👍👍👍
I've two audiophile friends who have shown that dual subs meld better into their listening rooms. I've a pair of tapered quarter wave tube speakers that never sounded right with subwoofer augmentation, be it one or two. I ended up putting baffle step compensation filters between the pre and power amps to bring the low bass up, essentially adding pseudo subs to each speaker. They sound much more balanced now. Just goes to show that co-locating subs next to smaller speakers, or using spectral eq can improve bass response.
Great that you advance in the subwoofer topic. I am using 2.2 with Harbeth, Lyngdorf and Aperion. I would encourage you to do a (very) different experiment:
- Place the subs in the left and right corners close to the wall (it will not immediately sound nice - rather the opposite, don't worry)
- with the same power you will have more bass output. This provides headroom for the subwoofer amps
- Try a crossover between 100 and 150Hz (I know, many Hifi people start to scream now, don't worry)
- It will have two great effects: A) It provides headroom to the amp and let's it play with much more control and authority (bass sucks the most power from the amp) and B) it significantly reduces strain from the speakers because their bass drivers do not have to play e.g. 80Hz and 300Hz at the same time => this relieve for the speakers provides you with a better midrange, more accuracy, better soundstage, imaging, ... (you already noticed such an effect)
- Level the bass on the subwoofers a few db (2 to 6) higher (no, I am not a bass head). This has two reasons. First, this provides headroom for DSP corrections. It is much better and easier to lower the bass via EQ than to increase it. Second, our hearing in the lower registers does not recognize deep bass with as equally loud as higher frequencies. You need to raise a little bit to make it sound correct (house curve topic, a rise from 100 Hz downwards is typical, in REW you can work with housecurves).
- now comes the critical part: you will need to DSP the subs to get rid of elevated frequencies and should also take care of timing issues. I am not familiar with the subs your are using and the capabilities of their DSP. However, if your amp provides Dirac this would be the way to go. If done properly, you will not be able to locate the subs as the source for the bass
Why would I like to see this experiment? Actually, not for me because I have used such integrations frequently and also use it in my system experiencing all the positive effects (Lyngdorf TDAI-2170, Harbeth P3ESR XDs, 2 Aperion Bravus 12D subwoofers, Crossover at 105 Hz). I think it would be extremely helpful to encourage people to do some experiments themselves. I do not claim, that such an approach is generally better but knowing the positive effects I recommend to try it out, esp. when having smaller standmount speakers.
Nice work, very thorough and looks like you accomplished good synergy. I would be curious to hear you impressions of what a pass of DIRAC does, less for further linearization of the frequency response than for aligning the phase of your speakers with the subs. In my experience phase-alignment is a critical element to integration of speakers and subwoofers.
thanks for this video Darko. When you're inclined, have a look at twin subs combined with full range floorstanders.
If you have independent distance settings on the amp, you could try adjusting one slightly to remove dips caused by time alignment. I bought a small dsp box and set my subs up with rew first. Can really mess around with adjusting for room nodes with a dsp.
Agree, a subwoofer integration makes a profound impact to a system. My go to test tracks for dialing a subwoofer in... Nicolas Jaar, Colomb; Jeff Mills & Tony Allen, Locked & Loaded; Darkside, Narrow Road; Kelela, The High; Burial, Archangel; Mala, Anti War Dub
The only Audiophile who twlks about the right things, rather then having just 2 2-ways in an untreated Room.
Every Hometheater Guy knows about this forever, but the Stereopeople always need like 30 years to keep up😅.
Love ur Content👍
Absolutely agree with Mango Drive. Benchmark in bass.
I always try to use at least 2 subwoofers John. My preferred brand on that front is the Martin Logan Dynamo series as they have ARC room eq built in. Ideal if your source / amp etc has no EQ.
Excellent video - you’ve got me thinking about getting a 2nd sub now. I’m definitely a big fan of well dialled in subs - a sub or subs bring so much more to overall sound quality than just low bass. Currently use a pair of Elac Navis actives with a small quality JL Audio sub. The Elacs have a high pass filter which is brilliant. Also bought them following one of your reviews - thanks; you were spot on!
Thanks great video. Try setting the subs 10HZ below the stand mounts roll off FRQ. It works for me.
Glad the comments came back. I was watching a video about the benefits of dual subwoofers and then, bang! Your notification flashed across my screen so the timing was perfect! But as i played the comments were off.
Anyways... As always this video did not disappoint. Clear detail and direction for its content. Thank you John.
Im not sure if other comments have highlighted this already? If so apologies. But... the flat response chase near the end. Isn't a flat reading as shown more intended for playback at around 85db (reference) ?
Your Dirac colleague Terry Ellis did a great video a few years ago looking at how much extra "bass energy" is needed at continuing lower volume levels. This makes sense due to the "loudness buttons" on amplifiers, for this exact compensation for almost 50 years.
So... is the "Spicy findings" going to be? What is the sound of the Golden Ear like at normal listening levels in solo and dual configuration punching a 10db and even as high as 20db boost going up around 24db per octave with it's hump/curve/peek around 30hz. then rolling back down towards the subs own 25hz roll off. Would that smooth hump/bump be "more enjoyable" than listening to the flat response?
This is potentially why I'm personally looking towards a second sub and to fill my 20db null at 30hz - 40hz.
Would love your view plus anyone in chat who has experienced dual subs and runs them "hot" for more enjoyment vs somewhat less enjoyable nature of perfectly flat REW line in the bass response.
Many thanks
Take care all.
Hi John, great video. You should try the subs in diagonal position front/rear. You have space near the sofa. But you will have to add a delay in the rear sub. I don't know if it is possible with the Nad! You can try MiniDsp!
I have a 12x16 ft room with a 5ft opening on the side to a 12x14ft room. Two Adante floorstanders are at the far end aa bitbver 3ft into the room. I added a pair of Sumiko S9's that sit beside the adante's and I find the blend to be very good, I feed the S9's from the speaker outputs of mt M8700 monoblocks and cross them over at about 60Hz.
With an old 8” REL sub the main album that I used to check for integration is Charlie Haden and Antonio Forcione’s “Heartplay”..
Spiritual by Pat Metheny (with Charlie Hayden on bass) and "Thanks to You" by Boz Scaggs has crazy, dive-down low bass.
Fantastic as ever, nice to see two modestly sized subs used, rather than some of the behemoths rolled out from time to time. I wondered if some of the side placement improvements in frequencies were helped by moving the sub to a hard floor from carpet, given the downward firing radiator? Maybe one for another day, more graphs etc.
Spot on! I have 2 subs, my REW measurements are pretty much flat within 2db down to 10hz, after running Dirac. With out Dirac...Rocky Mountains!. Subs are PSA S1512 sealed, Sonus Faber Sonetto VIII. The bass seems to follow the music...dead center or left and right. It's magic. 2 makes a difference!
I use two subs since years. I feel like you do have a better bass at low volumes. I use two 8inch subs, which kind of simulate the power of a 12inch sub. But they play faster and as i said deeper even at low volume and therefore fill the room with feeling the music. And yes the setup with two small LS on standmounts looks super cool 😆💁🏻♂️👍🏻 Great video.
With bass, there are a number of ways that things either cancel out or reinforce the sound. With any speaker, the bass that travels straight from the woofer (and it's port(s) if any) to our ears - will be cut by a reflection off of the floor WHEN the frequency wavelength is 2X the *difference* in the two path lengths. AND this same thing happens with the reflection off the ceiling, and the wall behind the speakers, the walls to either side - and the wall behind the listener, as well.
When you add a sub, or two subs - you *also* add the same thing from each sub to the other 5 boundary surfaces. So - yes the measurements of the bass, particularly below 200-250Hz IS GOING TO BE LUMPY.
A passive radiator acts acoustically essentially the same as a port. The exception is they should lack any chuffing noises.
No phase control? Any serious sub would have a continuous 0-180 degree phase control, to get the deeper bass closer to the phase of the speakers. Though with 2 subs, you can physically do this by placing the subs correctly.
Great video John, I’ve used the tracks ‘Hunter’ by Bjork from her Homogenic album & ‘Can’t stop Running’ by Adam Ben Ezra to dial my REL S/3 sub in.
One of your best videos, good balance of subjective opinion and measurement with the emphasis on the music. Please repeat using main speakers with no ports and again using main and sub speakers with no ports or passive radiators at all. I've run subs like this (fancy crossover and dedicated amps. etc) and it is on another level. The downside is big boxes.....
After running dual subs in my HT and 2 channel rig, not looking back. The HT is gone, the pair of SVS SB3000 subs stayed. They mate well with the KLH Model 5's. I have them in two rooms, L shaped, consisting of dining area and living room. Two rooms but one actual space. Neither are near the speakers, and yes, the bass surrounds you. The SVS app makes tuning them in rather simple. One day I may try REW and really dial them in.
2.2 setup with nice stand mounts and subs is a fantastic modern solution. I Have elac carina bookshelf speakers with B&W asw608 subs,,,its fantastic combo....I also have the subs on standmounts to be closer to the speakers for better integration and isolation using a higher crossover point.
When you get these increased dips in the lows from speakers on stands its called a floor bounce. Read up on Carl Tatz - The elephant in the room. Sometimes its better to use subs fullrange, and tweak them to “fit” with an eq if they have one, monitored by REW. (Never overdo it with eq though, but +/- 3db is fine) At least you should try both and see what the room prefers. But first of all find the subs optimal placement through REW, as you did, because from here it requires less room eq which always sounds better. Greats from an acoustics nerd in Helsinki. :)
John, may I pass on a suggestion to you on placement with both subs? I am using a pair of RELs with the Magnepan LRS Plus panels. Because the way I understand bass sound waves propagate they are omnidirectional which to me it now allows me more freedom to place the "boxes" in corners. So that is what I did however I rotated each sub 45 degrees into the very corner of one wall so it is diagonal and about one foot away. Then I covered the sub completely with an ottoman or cloth footstool in front of it so it is now out of sight. I did the same thing with the other sub diagonally opposite corner. To the eye there are no subs present however when played I feel I hit a home run! ALL the rich sound now was emanating directly from my panels and a perfect blending soundstage with seemingless glorious bottom end like pure magic. Absolutely no way can I tell where this delicious bass was being played from except the two speakers themselves. If you decide to try it out I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks again for your amazing videos as always.t t t
Ha ha. Listening to similar but higher quality setup for some 20 years now. SF Guarneri Homage with 2 SF Gravis 1B. Thanks John for this analysis which makes more sense than the general sub stories so far and now i understand why!
for testing subs i used to use these tracks:
Warren G - This DJ (contains veeeery low note than just few subs are able to play)
Hans Zimmer - Why so serious? (contains a section of sub notes playing almost solo)
Bjork - Hunter (has very subby bass)
Michael Jackson - Jam (contains sub accents on pre-chorus sections)
Luniz - I got 5 on it (contains sub part that is essential for whole track)
Having two different sized subs can be helpful too. I had two 12” subs but ended up replacing one of the subs with a 10”. The 12” was on the side of a hallway side of the speaker and 10” where the speaker was at a corner.
I have been looking forward to someone doing a video like this.I need some motivation. As of the last 12 months I have had two “broken” 8 inch subs sitting in pride of place next to each of my main speakers. While they are not doing anything at all, they sure do look good in situ.
great video John ... 2 subs and a minidsp for me. I my listening area is a and loft and getting the bass right was a challenge with room modes and nooks and crannies. I think maybe an asymmetrical placement of your subs may be a consideration ( after many iterations mine reside behind my listening position and along the short wall)
For subwoofer dial in I use Artifact/ the turn by Evanescence. At 0.59 bass is coming up fro behind so slightly that you might miss that when the sub gain is too low. Again at 1.14. But if it's too loud then the room will tremble at 1.22 min.
Don't worry, it's an electronic track, but be sure to turn it off rather quickly if you don't want the guitars coming in at track 2😂
Flight to LAPD from Hans Zimmer is also used for the real rumble and Drone Corpse Aviator ( Archspire) for measuring the speediness.
Great video. And you have to do it all over again switching speakers haha. That's part of the fun, right?
Another great presentation, I can't help smile when you're pragmatist side battles against your idealistic trait...my mum always called me Peter perfect 😂😂😂
Oh I like the lil cold open!
Hi John, very nice video! Maybe two comments... Perhaps you want to look beyond the spl behaviour also to the phase of the subs and the speakers. Doing that by REW will bring possibly another strong jump forward in sound. And it could be fun to arrange both subs for try out diagonal to your listening position, one e.g. front right side, one rear left side with 1/4 room width distance to the next side wall. It produces (correctly done) a 3rd phantom sub inbetween them and will give more equal base behaviour around the listening position... Have fun :)
This seems to be a larger room than most home rooms, you are lucky to have this in your house. It is much easier to play with speakers and subs in large rooms.