Thank you very much John! You're the first channel to truly tackle this curiosity straight on, in a practical and fun way. I have Klipsch Heresy IV speakers paired to a single REL S/510. Together, they're simply fabulous. I've debated the need for a matching sub pair, but had always thought it would be more of an "icing on the cake" scenario. As a result, I'm focused on adding a quality DAC instead in the same price range as a second S/510 (Denifrips Venus II). Your candid, practically-minded comments have reinforced my thinking in that regard, and for that, I thank you.
When it comes to bass, you don't want a flat response, that tends to sound bad. Human listening preference trends towards a bass bump, that starts around 150-200Hz, and gradually rises until 20-30Hz. Of course, there is some variance with rooms. It is important to look at something like a waterfall plot, because if there is ringing, you don't want to accentuate that. Removing a bit of energy around 80-100Hz, as shown in your measurements, is common in residential rooms.
Two subwoofers for me [REL Carbon Special]. My speakers are full range down to 20Hz and the subs still made a huge difference. Great video BTW you are becoming one of my favourite audio reviewers.
I'm with you on this. I had to install 3 subs to get the same bass in all the listening positions. It's not fair that only I get the best sound in the room!
Use of a subwoofer enhances the sound "picture". The addition of a 2nd sub addresses the issue of "room loading". A 2nd sub smooths out how the music "energy" fills the room, lessening nulls. I envy your new room, John, keep up your amazing task.
I use a pair of REL t5 (one is t5i the other t5x) that I use to fill out the low end with a pair of Klipsch Heresy II's. I started with the single t5i and while I thought it improved the overall sound of the system I always felt like it was lacking in some way. Adding the second sub helped make the sound more natural and calls less attention to the subwoofer. Basically your description of the difference between 1 sub vs 2 is exactly what I experienced in my room. And yes, adding a second subwoofer for about $600 did more to improve the sound of my system than any DAC, preamp, or amp swap could have. That said, going from a solid state amp to a tube amp did also make a big difference in the overall presentation (sweeter, more engaging sound) if not as dramatic a difference as adding two subs.
Excellent commentary. I added a second sub as well about a month ago and the difference was just as you described. the sound is smoother and fuller. it will be my standard set up from now on in any larger room!
Aha, I was listening and thinking it's very similar to my experience of using 2 subs, but it's hard to describe... And then you said it's as if the whole room is playing the bass, and I think you nailed it there! With two subs, I think positioning of either is less critical, and there's less room effect on the bass. Oh, and yes, I've always had a sub (or two) in my system, and it's not really about "more bass" - I just think it gives a more open overall sound.
Agree! I added two REL Tzero,s last year and they make such a positive difference to the listening experience. My listening room is small and treated- ish and having two RELs seems to make the room work better. Never had subs before so setting up was exciting, scary, confusing, and logical all at the same time. Ended up with RELs recommendations, 15 clicks on both crossover and gain but still playing with position. Phase setting? Who knows, can't really tell but perhaps one day that will become clearer. Great video.
your neighbour probably has the chest thumping bass my neighbours pictures were falling off the wall and i could hardly hear anything in my room thats phase. A sound wave like the sea has to break high frequencies are like little ripples bouncing back in to your room low frequencies are like tidal waves you dont hear them they go over your head missing you but but someone 30 meters away gets the force where the wave hits.
My findings exactly agree with yours. I added one KEF KC62 to my KEF LS50 Wireless II. The improvement was massive. But no matter what I did, I could always hear where the sub was. Once I added the second KC62, used the app to compare subs in mono versus subs in stereo, a room filling result was obtained and the position of the subs, raised and right next to the KEF S2 stands, integrated the subs with the satellites in a very pleasing way. My integrating track is R. Strauss Festliches Präludium, Olivier Latry (organ) Andris Nelsons (conductor) Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (Deutsche Grammophon) I play it from qobuz
I like to use a custom pink noise generator and the RTA in REW to get the subs dialed in. It's a lot quicker, and easier process. You can also finely dial in the subs placement with that. I change the FFT length to 8k on the RTA so the graph changes more in real time. I think it's ludacris that those subs don't have variable phase control or a polarity switch usually mislabeled as "phase".
John! As a Mountain Goats lifer, it's awesome to see you feature them on your channel. Bleed Out is such a fun record! Also the fact that you and JD have the same initials, is not lost on anyone haha
This video is an Audiophile PSA for those wondering "why" a pair of subs. Great simple video with a nice explanation of how it sounds different with a pair vs. a single sub.
Yes. My system finally sounds right now that I added a second Polk 10" powered sub. I spent several afternoons adjusting the crossovers, gains, and position of the subs. My old Altec EQ has a subsonic filter, so I set it to around 22-25hz. That really cleaned up the bass from the powered subs and now it's detailed and punchy! Im very happy with two subs!
I'm here because I'm wrestling with the idea of adding a second sub to my system, which currently has a single Polk Audio HTS12 sub. I was hoping that I wouldn't need to, but judging by the comments, looks like I do.🙆♂️
Lol, you have to admire the dedication. 17 minutes 28 seconds to deliver the ROOM-FILLING SOUND punchline. Amazing video as always, and the green of the room treatment looks SO good!
Thank you for another journey. Taking us through the setup of your new home has been filled with information that "I believe" is real world listening worthiness. One additional bonus of information for this episode would be to include the results with an added comparison of a single larger sub of the same brand. An additional needed mention is that taking it a little easier with your health has offered us so much useful information in a short time. Thanks again from Chicago.
Perfect timing - and thanks for the focus on music over home theater. For a month or 2 I've been thinking about a 2nd sub for my 12x19x8 room. An order was placed within an hour for another modest Elac Sub 1010.
2 subs are optimally placed in oppositely mirrored positions of the room (at least in a rectangular enclosed room) So midpoints of opposing walls or diagonally opposite corners. (Floyd Toole) But in your Lisbon room with openings to the rest of the house its basicslly trial and error...
I added a 2nd sub (2 x RSL Speedwoofers) to my setup a year ago and I can’t go back. I tuned by ear and my preferred setup is one sub in the front and the second sub in the back of the room diagonal from the front sub. The sound stage is improved and there are no bass holes. I am firm in the dual sub camp. Adding a 2nd sub to my setup is the best audio upgrade I ever made. 2.2 FTW!
My dad recently got into budget hifi, and I gifted him my second subwoofer to get him started. At the time I was also trying to clean up my room and reduce the amount of gear. Well… of course the idealist in me has regrets. Having a second subwoofer is really nice. I might have to do some subwoofer shopping in the near future. The funny thing is that subwoofer I gifted was a nice SVS that blends beatifully with monitors. When I was using it you couldn’t tell the bass wasn’t coming from the speakers. When I visit my parents my dad has that subwoofer blasting, way higher than the speakers, shaking the whole house 😂. Oh well, he’s enjoying it.
Two subs (or three or four lol) is a game-changer. I run dual SVS PB-2000’s and it’s awesome. I would only consider using a single sub if the listening space was for one person. Great video John!!
Your previous dips into subwoofer stuff motivated me to add an 8 inch subwoofer to my near field (1.5 metre) office audio setup. I have reduced the acoustic resonance of a two-drawer filing cabinet by applying self-adhesive, bitumastic, automotive damping panels to the cabinet. Tuning involves opening the drawers from time-to-time to further dissipate resonance. 🙂The audio on your channel has been v. useful as, even on RUclips, it takes a deeper dive into bass than most. Cheers.
I have a 12x16 ft room with a 5ft opening on the side to a 12x14ft room. Two Adante floorstanders are at the far end aa bitbver 3ft into the room. I added a pair of Sumiko S9's that sit beside the adante's and I find the blend to be very good, I feed the S9's from the speaker outputs of mt M8700 monoblocks and cross them over at about 60Hz.
Great that you advance in the subwoofer topic. I am using 2.2 with Harbeth, Lyngdorf and Aperion. I would encourage you to do a (very) different experiment: - Place the subs in the left and right corners close to the wall (it will not immediately sound nice - rather the opposite, don't worry) - with the same power you will have more bass output. This provides headroom for the subwoofer amps - Try a crossover between 100 and 150Hz (I know, many Hifi people start to scream now, don't worry) - It will have two great effects: A) It provides headroom to the amp and let's it play with much more control and authority (bass sucks the most power from the amp) and B) it significantly reduces strain from the speakers because their bass drivers do not have to play e.g. 80Hz and 300Hz at the same time => this relieve for the speakers provides you with a better midrange, more accuracy, better soundstage, imaging, ... (you already noticed such an effect) - Level the bass on the subwoofers a few db (2 to 6) higher (no, I am not a bass head). This has two reasons. First, this provides headroom for DSP corrections. It is much better and easier to lower the bass via EQ than to increase it. Second, our hearing in the lower registers does not recognize deep bass with as equally loud as higher frequencies. You need to raise a little bit to make it sound correct (house curve topic, a rise from 100 Hz downwards is typical, in REW you can work with housecurves). - now comes the critical part: you will need to DSP the subs to get rid of elevated frequencies and should also take care of timing issues. I am not familiar with the subs your are using and the capabilities of their DSP. However, if your amp provides Dirac this would be the way to go. If done properly, you will not be able to locate the subs as the source for the bass Why would I like to see this experiment? Actually, not for me because I have used such integrations frequently and also use it in my system experiencing all the positive effects (Lyngdorf TDAI-2170, Harbeth P3ESR XDs, 2 Aperion Bravus 12D subwoofers, Crossover at 105 Hz). I think it would be extremely helpful to encourage people to do some experiments themselves. I do not claim, that such an approach is generally better but knowing the positive effects I recommend to try it out, esp. when having smaller standmount speakers.
REW has a room wizard. Put in the dimensions of the room. Move the main speakers into the positions and move the subs around in the virtual room watch the frequency curves change. I used it for my room and it's spot on. Saved me humping two 50Kg subs around.
Thanks for the wonderful video. I'm really loving these sound exploration videos (room treatments, subs, etc.). It's also rather topical to my current situation! I am considering adding 1 and possibly 2 subs to my main system in a large room. My speakers are semi full range, they do dip into the mid 30hz range. I'm looking at 1-2 REL T9/X to fit the bill. A few tracks that come to mind I use to gauge bass performance and reach. Aphex Twin - CHEETAH7B Boards of Canada - Turquoise Hexagon Sun Nils Frahm - Some James Blake - Limit to Your Love Mogwai - Helps Both Ways Caribou - All I Ever Need The Smile - The Opposite Bill Callahan - Jim Cain (love how the drums sound on this recording) Kevin Morby - Cut Me Down Jonathan Wilson - Riding the Blinds
This is a Test - A bass test! Driftmachine - Memories of the Lakeside Clock DVA - The Konstuctor Adrian Sherwood - Xplanation (More of a speaker jogging run) Rhythm & Sound - Boss Man (Repeat as there are x2 bass volumes which alternate, good imho for fine tuning subs) Creation Rebel - Chemical Specialist (you have to turn this one up ) Raime - Quarter Turns Over Living Line album I have tested these with my x2 Rel TX5s
John, may I pass on a suggestion to you on placement with both subs? I am using a pair of RELs with the Magnepan LRS Plus panels. Because the way I understand bass sound waves propagate they are omnidirectional which to me it now allows me more freedom to place the "boxes" in corners. So that is what I did however I rotated each sub 45 degrees into the very corner of one wall so it is diagonal and about one foot away. Then I covered the sub completely with an ottoman or cloth footstool in front of it so it is now out of sight. I did the same thing with the other sub diagonally opposite corner. To the eye there are no subs present however when played I feel I hit a home run! ALL the rich sound now was emanating directly from my panels and a perfect blending soundstage with seemingless glorious bottom end like pure magic. Absolutely no way can I tell where this delicious bass was being played from except the two speakers themselves. If you decide to try it out I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks again for your amazing videos as always.t t t
One song that you should definitely consider to test the dynamics of the speaker - and especially the details of a subwoofer would be 'Dreaming in Colour' - The Art of Noise, but from 'The Seduction of Claude Debussy' album. Tested it this morning after adjusting an EQ using REW and wow, the difference is phenomenal!
Well said, I just added a second sub to my LS 50 Metas and wow, after tuning them in it was like getting new speakers, bigger room filling sound. Thank!
I've been a lifelong Basshead as far as car audio goes, so having a sub in my home system was never a question. But this year I moved to a place too small for surround sound so I leaned into Stereo only. I have a pair of old but awesome Maggie's (Magnepan) so I HAD to add a subwoofer but it never sounded right. I added a second, cheap Polk and the difference was night and day! After turning them down I found that it does indeed fill out the room and they sort of disappear!! And that's with an old Infinity 12" sub and a cheap 10" Polk! I'm coming into some money soon so this review has solidified that I would rather do 2 smaller but high quality subs for home listening. I will still do 1000 watts on two 12"s in my car but for home, less is more and this review shows that.
Great video, John, as always. You asked for some bass test tracks from viewers, so here you go. The two bass test tracks I use the most are “Lover’s Rock” by Sade (just after the 1:00 mark) and “Doing It Right” by Daft Punk. The reason is not only do they have super low bass, but each one hits three different low frequencies. This not only allows me to test for low frequency response, but if I don’t have the sub(s) in a good spot in the room, then one of the low frequencies will be over emphasized, while another will barely be audible due to room nodes. I’ll move the sub(s) around until I get decent, balanced bass at each of the three frequencies and then I know I have good sub placement. Some other tracks I use include “Gosh” by Jamie XX, “Do You…” by Miguel, “Royals” by Lorde, “No Difference” by Everything But The Girl, “Receiver” by Tycho, “Raingurl” by Yaeji, and “They Came In Peace” by Traquility Bass. For acoustic bass, I use “So What” by Miles Davis. Enjoy!
John, thank you for an excellent channel. 21 years ago I bought a pair of B&W CDM 1NT’s, a single B&W Matching Sub, and a higher end Denon Amp. Of course after 21 years the system has started to sound a bit thin, so I started by replacing the Denon with a Schiit stack: Modi Multi-bit DAC, Saga S Pre, and the Vidar 2. What a difference. But the Sub just didn’t sound right anymore, either. I realized that its internal amp must have lost a bit of punch, too. So I bought 2 Rel’s, placed them on the outside of the bookshelf speakers, and wow, the system sounds so much better. I set the crossovers on the subs just above where the B&W’s drop off at -3db, and the Mid’s sound fuller, the bass is faster and more defined, and the listening experience is just more enjoyable now. Anyway, 2 is the way to go. My system has never sounded better…. Thanks for the great channel!
Good experiment John. One major issue is that’s this subwoofer has no phase adjustment. None. It is virtually impossible to properly integrate a sub without adjusting phase. Playing with this should be your next step in your subwoofer learning journey. I have learned a lot with my system, which has changed a lot but seen many iterations including an M10 with dual subs and Lumina 2’s. Because you have the M10, you should also experiment with running Dirac calibration in a setup optimized for two subwoofers. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results.
I always try to use at least 2 subwoofers John. My preferred brand on that front is the Martin Logan Dynamo series as they have ARC room eq built in. Ideal if your source / amp etc has no EQ.
The mix of impressions and taking measurements is very well done. I am still learning to dial in subs using REW myself. In my experience, taking measurements gives you a far better picture of what is actually going on, so you can make adjustments that you could not have thought about otherwise.
The video i have been waiting for :) After having 2 subs in my stereosystem i will never go without again.. Does not matter if the speakers are small og big. It's allways better with two well dialed subs. I have two Forcefield 3 now(bought after your review). And they are just brilliant as music subs. And like you say.. with two the texture is better, less boomy. :)
Great video, John. I’ve been a true believer in two subs since 2000, when I got my first home theater (5.1) system. Later the system got reduced to 2 channel stereo, but the subs remained until 2022; had to sell them to downsize for a move from Texas to Mexico. I feel they added a balance to the sound, especially in a large room.
If you have independent distance settings on the amp, you could try adjusting one slightly to remove dips caused by time alignment. I bought a small dsp box and set my subs up with rew first. Can really mess around with adjusting for room nodes with a dsp.
To blend the sub: Thanks to You by Boz Scaggs. Room 335 by Larry Carlton. Everybody Here Wants You by Jeff Buckley. Sahara by Joe Satriani. Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones.
Really good video, timed great as I bought a sub last week for music listening (only). I’ve been playing with location, gain, frequency cut, without any measuring, purely what sounds best to me. It’s good to see the measurement aspect too, although you (correctly for me) pay more attention to what you like. Love your videos, thanks for keeping us entertained and informed.
The only Audiophile who twlks about the right things, rather then having just 2 2-ways in an untreated Room. Every Hometheater Guy knows about this forever, but the Stereopeople always need like 30 years to keep up😅. Love ur Content👍
After running dual subs in my HT and 2 channel rig, not looking back. The HT is gone, the pair of SVS SB3000 subs stayed. They mate well with the KLH Model 5's. I have them in two rooms, L shaped, consisting of dining area and living room. Two rooms but one actual space. Neither are near the speakers, and yes, the bass surrounds you. The SVS app makes tuning them in rather simple. One day I may try REW and really dial them in.
Strongly suspect dip around 60Hz with 80Hz crossover point is due to phase cancellation between mains and sub(s). I suspect that if you could phase shift the sub(s), the graph would flatten or even wind up with a peak around 60Hz. The other option would be to only high pass above crossover to mains -- thus reduced risk of out of phase near crossover frequency. Also, such "unloading" of the mains would allow them to be more accurate above the crossover point -- because they would not forced to overlay upper bass over the cone travel of lower base. Think 90Hz riding on top of 40Hz...
John, you have been on a roll with this series of posts from your Portugal listening space. All have been relevant to me in that I installed Dirac Live via Mini DSP Studio just after the new year. Game changer in my listening space. This video gave me the hair-brained idea of taking a pair of so-so mid-fi speakers (like the 1980's Bose 301s I have lying about), integrate subwoofer(s) and run Dirac Live. I might do that just for grins and giggles.
Agree, a subwoofer integration makes a profound impact to a system. My go to test tracks for dialing a subwoofer in... Nicolas Jaar, Colomb; Jeff Mills & Tony Allen, Locked & Loaded; Darkside, Narrow Road; Kelela, The High; Burial, Archangel; Mala, Anti War Dub
With bass, there are a number of ways that things either cancel out or reinforce the sound. With any speaker, the bass that travels straight from the woofer (and it's port(s) if any) to our ears - will be cut by a reflection off of the floor WHEN the frequency wavelength is 2X the *difference* in the two path lengths. AND this same thing happens with the reflection off the ceiling, and the wall behind the speakers, the walls to either side - and the wall behind the listener, as well. When you add a sub, or two subs - you *also* add the same thing from each sub to the other 5 boundary surfaces. So - yes the measurements of the bass, particularly below 200-250Hz IS GOING TO BE LUMPY. A passive radiator acts acoustically essentially the same as a port. The exception is they should lack any chuffing noises. No phase control? Any serious sub would have a continuous 0-180 degree phase control, to get the deeper bass closer to the phase of the speakers. Though with 2 subs, you can physically do this by placing the subs correctly.
Spot on! I have 2 subs, my REW measurements are pretty much flat within 2db down to 10hz, after running Dirac. With out Dirac...Rocky Mountains!. Subs are PSA S1512 sealed, Sonus Faber Sonetto VIII. The bass seems to follow the music...dead center or left and right. It's magic. 2 makes a difference!
I've two audiophile friends who have shown that dual subs meld better into their listening rooms. I've a pair of tapered quarter wave tube speakers that never sounded right with subwoofer augmentation, be it one or two. I ended up putting baffle step compensation filters between the pre and power amps to bring the low bass up, essentially adding pseudo subs to each speaker. They sound much more balanced now. Just goes to show that co-locating subs next to smaller speakers, or using spectral eq can improve bass response.
John; to listen specifically to bass guitar I use the Dire Straits song "You and Your Friend", track 6 from the album On Every Street. The bass line is clean and clearly articulated. My system includes a pair of HECO Aurora 700 floorstanding 3-way speakers, powered by the Emotiva combo of the BASX PT-1 preamp and BASX A2 amplifier. (160 watts / channel into 8 Ohms and 250 watts / channel into 4 Ohms, with a rated THD+N of < 0.02%, I use my Apple tv box for streaming from Apple music. I have been chasing sound for about 30 years and I am satisfied with this system @ around $2,000.; it's "good enough" for now. Although I am eyeballing your ZU speakers...
My experience mirrors yours. I added a pair of REL subs to my Magnepan setup and the effect was a noticeable increase in enjoyment and engagement over a single sub.
everything about matching subs is to know what ist the phase ;) If you have -6db dip on the X-over frequency sub is just out of phase with the loudspeakers (not in general, but on that frequency)
2.2 setup with nice stand mounts and subs is a fantastic modern solution. I Have elac carina bookshelf speakers with B&W asw608 subs,,,its fantastic combo....I also have the subs on standmounts to be closer to the speakers for better integration and isolation using a higher crossover point.
Fantastic as ever, nice to see two modestly sized subs used, rather than some of the behemoths rolled out from time to time. I wondered if some of the side placement improvements in frequencies were helped by moving the sub to a hard floor from carpet, given the downward firing radiator? Maybe one for another day, more graphs etc.
Hi, enjoyable content again and thanks for it. I've been in the same room for 30 years, the last 15 with an EPOS ELS subwoofer, incidentally with more controls. My issue with subwoofer sound continues in my new sound set up. I replaced my hifi stand (which was stabilised by my vinyl and cd collection so weighed close to a tonne, on spikes to stainless floor pods) by a 20kg steel stand spiked and loaded with aluminium plates individually spiked as shelves with auto deadening sheets stuck to them. Overall, something like, with equipment, 100kgs. Pleasantly surprised by the nice sound I got from my MA Studio speakers which are far more musical than reviewers granted them - though not as amazing and overarching as my previous set up, it's far more room/family friendly. But as before - the sub is the elephant in the room. The issue is where you sit. All very well pointing to the sweet spot. I agree with you; you can vastly improve the output of stand mount speakers with little true bass in one place, but move off-axis and it's boomy, painful and wholly unmusical. My system is under my desk in a corner of the room. I can't have the subwoofer on whilst I sit there because the characteristics change drastically from the sweet spot listening position. I'm not spending money on tuning my room having agreed to reduce my hifi presence from its 30 year reign. But now, what if 2 smaller subs replaced one and were forward facing - go with that?? I need something wife proof. My EPOS sits across the room facing the babies, is unobtrusively hidden by a table above it and suited me till you introduced this question. Venture on please, guide me here.
Having two different sized subs can be helpful too. I had two 12” subs but ended up replacing one of the subs with a 10”. The 12” was on the side of a hallway side of the speaker and 10” where the speaker was at a corner.
The crossover frequency is where both speakers have the same loudness therefore they both play with less output then they would normally do. Its not a hard cutoff. Thats where u get 12db/oct or 24db/oct. etc pp also the filter like butterworth of likwitz riley etc are ways to make the two speakers work together. Therefore if you have -3db ( half the volume ) at the crossover frequency because 80db+80db = 83db then u have a falloff of 12db @ 100hz. then ur sub plays 200hz as well, just very quietly. This is important because a bigger cone sounds diffrent then a smaller cone, so the broad crossover makes it so the sound blends together better. In a digital crossover you can get like 48db oct crossovers which make it so that one sub plays to EXACTLY ( pretty much ) that frequency. But its also important to have in mind that in a high quality box your chassis are of such high quality that u can set your crossovers at frequencies where the chassis dont come into a frequency range where they have big troubles with. A 2nd sub is pretty much always a good thing as the room gets filled with energy more evenly, The smaller the room the more Important, but then again a bigger room needs more energy so its pretty much always that a 2nd sub is better then only 1. That scales up with even more subs, as long as they are corretly placed. But make no mistake, a better sub can outperform 2 worse subs, sometimes pretty easily. Also this may be controversal but your bookshelf speakers are not capable of really delivering room filled sound. Iam sorry. They are decent speakers and they sound ok, maybe i give them even a "good" but a quality DIY 3 way speaker with a digital crossover smokes them pretty easily. Hope you can listen to something like that so you hear it for yourself. If your by chance ever in southern germany i gladly show u my system.
A lot of placement is about getting time alignment correct, so there is no phase issues, which defeat certain frequencies, like 40hz, for instance. The closer to the speaker the better the time alignment.
Glad the comments came back. I was watching a video about the benefits of dual subwoofers and then, bang! Your notification flashed across my screen so the timing was perfect! But as i played the comments were off. Anyways... As always this video did not disappoint. Clear detail and direction for its content. Thank you John. Im not sure if other comments have highlighted this already? If so apologies. But... the flat response chase near the end. Isn't a flat reading as shown more intended for playback at around 85db (reference) ? Your Dirac colleague Terry Ellis did a great video a few years ago looking at how much extra "bass energy" is needed at continuing lower volume levels. This makes sense due to the "loudness buttons" on amplifiers, for this exact compensation for almost 50 years. So... is the "Spicy findings" going to be? What is the sound of the Golden Ear like at normal listening levels in solo and dual configuration punching a 10db and even as high as 20db boost going up around 24db per octave with it's hump/curve/peek around 30hz. then rolling back down towards the subs own 25hz roll off. Would that smooth hump/bump be "more enjoyable" than listening to the flat response? This is potentially why I'm personally looking towards a second sub and to fill my 20db null at 30hz - 40hz. Would love your view plus anyone in chat who has experienced dual subs and runs them "hot" for more enjoyment vs somewhat less enjoyable nature of perfectly flat REW line in the bass response. Many thanks Take care all.
Hi John, great video. You should try the subs in diagonal position front/rear. You have space near the sofa. But you will have to add a delay in the rear sub. I don't know if it is possible with the Nad! You can try MiniDsp!
for testing subs i used to use these tracks: Warren G - This DJ (contains veeeery low note than just few subs are able to play) Hans Zimmer - Why so serious? (contains a section of sub notes playing almost solo) Bjork - Hunter (has very subby bass) Michael Jackson - Jam (contains sub accents on pre-chorus sections) Luniz - I got 5 on it (contains sub part that is essential for whole track)
I am using dual SVS SB-16 subwoofers. The frequency band from 20hz to 60hz contains the spatial information ( height, width, depth ). Big band JAZZ and pipe organ pressurizes the air in my listening room.
Hello John, I love watching your video’s, but have 1 question; as I am color blind, could you use more contrasting colors in your graphs? Now the lines look the same for me. Hope this is possible? Keep up the good work!
Nice work, very thorough and looks like you accomplished good synergy. I would be curious to hear you impressions of what a pass of DIRAC does, less for further linearization of the frequency response than for aligning the phase of your speakers with the subs. In my experience phase-alignment is a critical element to integration of speakers and subwoofers.
Perhaps investigate the Lyngdorf 2.2 approach to bass? They put 'bass' speakers (not subs) in the conventionally wrong place - in order to get a more cohesive and impactful result...
When you get these increased dips in the lows from speakers on stands its called a floor bounce. Read up on Carl Tatz - The elephant in the room. Sometimes its better to use subs fullrange, and tweak them to “fit” with an eq if they have one, monitored by REW. (Never overdo it with eq though, but +/- 3db is fine) At least you should try both and see what the room prefers. But first of all find the subs optimal placement through REW, as you did, because from here it requires less room eq which always sounds better. Greats from an acoustics nerd in Helsinki. :)
For subwoofer dial in I use Artifact/ the turn by Evanescence. At 0.59 bass is coming up fro behind so slightly that you might miss that when the sub gain is too low. Again at 1.14. But if it's too loud then the room will tremble at 1.22 min. Don't worry, it's an electronic track, but be sure to turn it off rather quickly if you don't want the guitars coming in at track 2😂 Flight to LAPD from Hans Zimmer is also used for the real rumble and Drone Corpse Aviator ( Archspire) for measuring the speediness. Great video. And you have to do it all over again switching speakers haha. That's part of the fun, right?
This seems to be a larger room than most home rooms, you are lucky to have this in your house. It is much easier to play with speakers and subs in large rooms.
I have the GoldenEar BRX'S and use a SVS single 12" ported sub. I'm driving these with a PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP integrated. My thoughts are to go twin REL subs running from the speaker taps via the neutrik connections which is a REL hallmark. As well continue to run the SVS via its rca connection. The SVS will cross over lower than the REL but I should have amazing stereo bass and low energy integration.....at least this is my hope!
very relevant for me right now. I am currently using a new (to me) set of Lumina II's, and am trying to nail down the bass with my sub. its been a lot of fun tweaking the available setting to find the 'sweet spot'. but what i am find is the most significant factor is the song or album itself. all of the various recordings come with different levels or quality of bass, so I find myself adjusting the subs levels again at the start of each new track or album. otherwise songs can have either too much or too little bass for me in my room. lots of fun and i'm loving the Lumina II's. thanks as always for the informative video!
Ha ha. Listening to similar but higher quality setup for some 20 years now. SF Guarneri Homage with 2 SF Gravis 1B. Thanks John for this analysis which makes more sense than the general sub stories so far and now i understand why!
@10:00 asa u moved it closer to the wall it delivers better. never put sub in front of satelites/ always under or besides them, next to corners much better. @17:56 perfect!
One of your best videos, good balance of subjective opinion and measurement with the emphasis on the music. Please repeat using main speakers with no ports and again using main and sub speakers with no ports or passive radiators at all. I've run subs like this (fancy crossover and dedicated amps. etc) and it is on another level. The downside is big boxes.....
I have two Velodyne spl8bg subwoofers, actually similar to these golden ears in some ways. I did consider running a 2.2 system for my listening room, but its simply too small to use both (excellent) subwoofers in one small space. I now run two different 2.1 systems and am happy with that. I am very much on the fence as to whether running large towers with decent low end output, or bookshelvers with a sub create the best sound stage. Using my Velodynes, I do feel like nearly every system benefits from a sub.
Re. Music for testing subs: Scott Mulvahill - Himalayas I like it to test the integration of the main speakers with the sub, does it sound real, can I spot when he switches from playing notes to cords, acoustic bass & Cello are perfect for this and IMO it's easier to tell if something is off because you know how those instruments should sound, synths are much harder to judge if the setup is messing up the bass. For room filling bass? Tor - Foxglove Breakage - Rain
I use two subs since years. I feel like you do have a better bass at low volumes. I use two 8inch subs, which kind of simulate the power of a 12inch sub. But they play faster and as i said deeper even at low volume and therefore fill the room with feeling the music. And yes the setup with two small LS on standmounts looks super cool 😆💁🏻♂️👍🏻 Great video.
Great exploration. This is what we need to do - explore sound in different situations and locations. Sound helps us bridge the distance between here and there…
The hole in response at around 100Hz is clearly a timing and phase problem. Read up on what both of those things, people have explained them much better than I will, but basically at crossover the sound waves coming out of each speaker don't necessarily have the same phase, when they reach your ears they can destructively interact and cause holes in frequency response if they are too out of phase. Fixing the problem thankfully doesn't really require deep understanding. You need a dsp or a preamp that allows you to add delay to each signal. You can then measure with REW and use REW's handy dandy alignment tool (you need to be in all spl for it to work). You can then play around with gain and delay and it will predict the summed trace. Just delay until that hole is gone. It might also just be your room idk, but the delay is worth a shot imo.
edit: delay in the time domain is distance in the physical domain in regarda to sound waves. If you don't have a dsp you can try moving the sub forwards and backwards to get a better alignment
Good stuff John. One huge downside to the GoldenEar sub is the lack of phase adjustment. It's likely that the phase-alignment between the sub(s) and your standmounts around the crossover region was better at 60Hz vs 80Hz. I'm using two subs crossed over at 120Hz to my Genelecs and they sound great.
@Eetu @Darko Audio Yes, it was improper phase summing of the subwoofer(s) to the standmounts in the crossover region that caused the nulls. A simple 180° phase inversion switch (a huge oversight by Golden Ear IMO!) on the subwoofer would have remedied this, or at least improved the integration and response. However, John could have simply reversed the (+) & (-) speaker wire connections on Both standmount speakers to achieve the same result as a phase inversion switch on the subwoofer. Try this again with the first single subwoofer setup that was centered between the standmounts and measure & listen to the results to confirm. ;)
Thank you very much John! You're the first channel to truly tackle this curiosity straight on, in a practical and fun way. I have Klipsch Heresy IV speakers paired to a single REL S/510. Together, they're simply fabulous. I've debated the need for a matching sub pair, but had always thought it would be more of an "icing on the cake" scenario. As a result, I'm focused on adding a quality DAC instead in the same price range as a second S/510 (Denifrips Venus II). Your candid, practically-minded comments have reinforced my thinking in that regard, and for that, I thank you.
When it comes to bass, you don't want a flat response, that tends to sound bad. Human listening preference trends towards a bass bump, that starts around 150-200Hz, and gradually rises until 20-30Hz. Of course, there is some variance with rooms. It is important to look at something like a waterfall plot, because if there is ringing, you don't want to accentuate that. Removing a bit of energy around 80-100Hz, as shown in your measurements, is common in residential rooms.
Two subwoofers for me [REL Carbon Special]. My speakers are full range down to 20Hz and the subs still made a huge difference. Great video BTW you are becoming one of my favourite audio reviewers.
I agree. Using more subs is not about gettibg more bass, but getting better and more consistent base in all relevant listening positions.
I'm with you on this. I had to install 3 subs to get the same bass in all the listening positions. It's not fair that only I get the best sound in the room!
Use of a subwoofer enhances the sound "picture". The addition of a 2nd sub addresses the issue of "room loading". A 2nd sub smooths out how the music "energy" fills the room, lessening nulls. I envy your new room, John, keep up your amazing task.
I use a pair of REL t5 (one is t5i the other t5x) that I use to fill out the low end with a pair of Klipsch Heresy II's. I started with the single t5i and while I thought it improved the overall sound of the system I always felt like it was lacking in some way. Adding the second sub helped make the sound more natural and calls less attention to the subwoofer. Basically your description of the difference between 1 sub vs 2 is exactly what I experienced in my room. And yes, adding a second subwoofer for about $600 did more to improve the sound of my system than any DAC, preamp, or amp swap could have. That said, going from a solid state amp to a tube amp did also make a big difference in the overall presentation (sweeter, more engaging sound) if not as dramatic a difference as adding two subs.
Excellent commentary. I added a second sub as well about a month ago and the difference was just as you described. the sound is smoother and fuller. it will be my standard set up from now on in any larger room!
Aha, I was listening and thinking it's very similar to my experience of using 2 subs, but it's hard to describe... And then you said it's as if the whole room is playing the bass, and I think you nailed it there! With two subs, I think positioning of either is less critical, and there's less room effect on the bass. Oh, and yes, I've always had a sub (or two) in my system, and it's not really about "more bass" - I just think it gives a more open overall sound.
I was going to contribute to this thread, but you've kinda covered it in your comment.
Agree! I added two REL Tzero,s last year and they make such a positive difference to the listening experience.
My listening room is small and treated- ish and having two RELs seems to make the room work better.
Never had subs before so setting up was exciting, scary, confusing, and logical all at the same time.
Ended up with RELs recommendations, 15 clicks on both crossover and gain but still playing with position. Phase setting? Who knows, can't really tell but perhaps one day that will become clearer.
Great video.
your neighbour probably has the chest thumping bass my neighbours pictures were falling off the wall and i could hardly hear anything in my room thats phase.
A sound wave like the sea has to break high frequencies are like little ripples bouncing back in to your room low frequencies are like tidal waves you dont hear them they go over your head missing you but but someone 30 meters away gets the force where the wave hits.
I truly love listening to and watching your videos. As a newbie to audio, they have definitely changed my life. Thank you for doing what you do.
My findings exactly agree with yours. I added one KEF KC62 to my KEF LS50 Wireless II. The improvement was massive. But no matter what I did, I could always hear where the sub was. Once I added the second KC62, used the app to compare subs in mono versus subs in stereo, a room filling result was obtained and the position of the subs, raised and right next to the KEF S2 stands, integrated the subs with the satellites in a very pleasing way. My integrating track is R. Strauss Festliches Präludium, Olivier Latry (organ) Andris Nelsons (conductor) Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (Deutsche Grammophon) I play it from qobuz
I like to use a custom pink noise generator and the RTA in REW to get the subs dialed in. It's a lot quicker, and easier process. You can also finely dial in the subs placement with that. I change the FFT length to 8k on the RTA so the graph changes more in real time.
I think it's ludacris that those subs don't have variable phase control or a polarity switch usually mislabeled as "phase".
*Polarity* vs *Phase* what's the difference?
John! As a Mountain Goats lifer, it's awesome to see you feature them on your channel. Bleed Out is such a fun record!
Also the fact that you and JD have the same initials, is not lost on anyone haha
This video is an Audiophile PSA for those wondering "why" a pair of subs. Great simple video with a nice explanation of how it sounds different with a pair vs. a single sub.
Yes. My system finally sounds right now that I added a second Polk 10" powered sub. I spent several afternoons adjusting the crossovers, gains, and position of the subs. My old Altec EQ has a subsonic filter, so I set it to around 22-25hz. That really cleaned up the bass from the powered subs and now it's detailed and punchy! Im very happy with two subs!
only people that never had stereo subs say that "bass is not directional", you absolutely need stereo subs.
I'm here because I'm wrestling with the idea of adding a second sub to my system, which currently has a single Polk Audio HTS12 sub. I was hoping that I wouldn't need to, but judging by the comments, looks like I do.🙆♂️
Lol, you have to admire the dedication. 17 minutes 28 seconds to deliver the ROOM-FILLING SOUND punchline. Amazing video as always, and the green of the room treatment looks SO good!
I added a REL HT1003 to my system about 3 weeks ago and the difference is amazing it fills the room with music and much fuller sound
Thank you for another journey. Taking us through the setup of your new home has been filled with information that "I believe" is real world listening worthiness.
One additional bonus of information for this episode would be to include the results with an added comparison of a single larger sub of the same brand.
An additional needed mention is that taking it a little easier with your health has offered us so much useful information in a short time. Thanks again from Chicago.
Totally agree!!!! I own a pair of 805D3 HEGEL 190 and TWO RELS510 And i improved the sound of my listening room
Perfect timing - and thanks for the focus on music over home theater. For a month or 2 I've been thinking about a 2nd sub for my 12x19x8 room. An order was placed within an hour for another modest Elac Sub 1010.
2 subs are optimally placed in oppositely mirrored positions of the room (at least in a rectangular enclosed room) So midpoints of opposing walls or diagonally opposite corners. (Floyd Toole) But in your Lisbon room with openings to the rest of the house its basicslly trial and error...
I added a 2nd sub (2 x RSL Speedwoofers) to my setup a year ago and I can’t go back.
I tuned by ear and my preferred setup is one sub in the front and the second sub in the back of the room diagonal from the front sub.
The sound stage is improved and there are no bass holes. I am firm in the dual sub camp. Adding a 2nd sub to my setup is the best audio upgrade I ever made. 2.2 FTW!
My dad recently got into budget hifi, and I gifted him my second subwoofer to get him started. At the time I was also trying to clean up my room and reduce the amount of gear. Well… of course the idealist in me has regrets. Having a second subwoofer is really nice. I might have to do some subwoofer shopping in the near future. The funny thing is that subwoofer I gifted was a nice SVS that blends beatifully with monitors. When I was using it you couldn’t tell the bass wasn’t coming from the speakers. When I visit my parents my dad has that subwoofer blasting, way higher than the speakers, shaking the whole house 😂. Oh well, he’s enjoying it.
Two subs (or three or four lol) is a game-changer. I run dual SVS PB-2000’s and it’s awesome. I would only consider using a single sub if the listening space was for one person. Great video John!!
Your previous dips into subwoofer stuff motivated me to add an 8 inch subwoofer to my near field (1.5 metre) office audio setup. I have reduced the acoustic resonance of a two-drawer filing cabinet by applying self-adhesive, bitumastic, automotive damping panels to the cabinet. Tuning involves opening the drawers from time-to-time to further dissipate resonance. 🙂The audio on your channel has been v. useful as, even on RUclips, it takes a deeper dive into bass than most. Cheers.
Small observation, comment: Thank you for the “AD BREAK” segment. Tastefully done within the program context.
I have a 12x16 ft room with a 5ft opening on the side to a 12x14ft room. Two Adante floorstanders are at the far end aa bitbver 3ft into the room. I added a pair of Sumiko S9's that sit beside the adante's and I find the blend to be very good, I feed the S9's from the speaker outputs of mt M8700 monoblocks and cross them over at about 60Hz.
Great that you advance in the subwoofer topic. I am using 2.2 with Harbeth, Lyngdorf and Aperion. I would encourage you to do a (very) different experiment:
- Place the subs in the left and right corners close to the wall (it will not immediately sound nice - rather the opposite, don't worry)
- with the same power you will have more bass output. This provides headroom for the subwoofer amps
- Try a crossover between 100 and 150Hz (I know, many Hifi people start to scream now, don't worry)
- It will have two great effects: A) It provides headroom to the amp and let's it play with much more control and authority (bass sucks the most power from the amp) and B) it significantly reduces strain from the speakers because their bass drivers do not have to play e.g. 80Hz and 300Hz at the same time => this relieve for the speakers provides you with a better midrange, more accuracy, better soundstage, imaging, ... (you already noticed such an effect)
- Level the bass on the subwoofers a few db (2 to 6) higher (no, I am not a bass head). This has two reasons. First, this provides headroom for DSP corrections. It is much better and easier to lower the bass via EQ than to increase it. Second, our hearing in the lower registers does not recognize deep bass with as equally loud as higher frequencies. You need to raise a little bit to make it sound correct (house curve topic, a rise from 100 Hz downwards is typical, in REW you can work with housecurves).
- now comes the critical part: you will need to DSP the subs to get rid of elevated frequencies and should also take care of timing issues. I am not familiar with the subs your are using and the capabilities of their DSP. However, if your amp provides Dirac this would be the way to go. If done properly, you will not be able to locate the subs as the source for the bass
Why would I like to see this experiment? Actually, not for me because I have used such integrations frequently and also use it in my system experiencing all the positive effects (Lyngdorf TDAI-2170, Harbeth P3ESR XDs, 2 Aperion Bravus 12D subwoofers, Crossover at 105 Hz). I think it would be extremely helpful to encourage people to do some experiments themselves. I do not claim, that such an approach is generally better but knowing the positive effects I recommend to try it out, esp. when having smaller standmount speakers.
REW has a room wizard. Put in the dimensions of the room. Move the main speakers into the positions and move the subs around in the virtual room watch the frequency curves change. I used it for my room and it's spot on. Saved me humping two 50Kg subs around.
Nicely done, John. Love how you communicate sound- and in the end, it really is subjective and a “season to taste” endeavor. Thnx!
Thanks for the wonderful video. I'm really loving these sound exploration videos (room treatments, subs, etc.). It's also rather topical to my current situation! I am considering adding 1 and possibly 2 subs to my main system in a large room. My speakers are semi full range, they do dip into the mid 30hz range. I'm looking at 1-2 REL T9/X to fit the bill.
A few tracks that come to mind I use to gauge bass performance and reach.
Aphex Twin - CHEETAH7B
Boards of Canada - Turquoise Hexagon Sun
Nils Frahm - Some
James Blake - Limit to Your Love
Mogwai - Helps Both Ways
Caribou - All I Ever Need
The Smile - The Opposite
Bill Callahan - Jim Cain (love how the drums sound on this recording)
Kevin Morby - Cut Me Down
Jonathan Wilson - Riding the Blinds
This is a Test - A bass test!
Driftmachine - Memories of the Lakeside
Clock DVA - The Konstuctor
Adrian Sherwood - Xplanation (More of a speaker jogging run)
Rhythm & Sound - Boss Man (Repeat as there are x2 bass volumes which alternate, good imho for fine tuning subs)
Creation Rebel - Chemical Specialist (you have to turn this one up )
Raime - Quarter Turns Over Living Line album
I have tested these with my x2 Rel TX5s
John, may I pass on a suggestion to you on placement with both subs? I am using a pair of RELs with the Magnepan LRS Plus panels. Because the way I understand bass sound waves propagate they are omnidirectional which to me it now allows me more freedom to place the "boxes" in corners. So that is what I did however I rotated each sub 45 degrees into the very corner of one wall so it is diagonal and about one foot away. Then I covered the sub completely with an ottoman or cloth footstool in front of it so it is now out of sight. I did the same thing with the other sub diagonally opposite corner. To the eye there are no subs present however when played I feel I hit a home run! ALL the rich sound now was emanating directly from my panels and a perfect blending soundstage with seemingless glorious bottom end like pure magic. Absolutely no way can I tell where this delicious bass was being played from except the two speakers themselves. If you decide to try it out I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks again for your amazing videos as always.t t t
One song that you should definitely consider to test the dynamics of the speaker - and especially the details of a subwoofer would be 'Dreaming in Colour' - The Art of Noise, but from 'The Seduction of Claude Debussy' album. Tested it this morning after adjusting an EQ using REW and wow, the difference is phenomenal!
Well said, I just added a second sub to my LS 50 Metas and wow, after tuning them in it was like getting new speakers, bigger room filling sound. Thank!
I've been a lifelong Basshead as far as car audio goes, so having a sub in my home system was never a question. But this year I moved to a place too small for surround sound so I leaned into Stereo only. I have a pair of old but awesome Maggie's (Magnepan) so I HAD to add a subwoofer but it never sounded right. I added a second, cheap Polk and the difference was night and day! After turning them down I found that it does indeed fill out the room and they sort of disappear!! And that's with an old Infinity 12" sub and a cheap 10" Polk! I'm coming into some money soon so this review has solidified that I would rather do 2 smaller but high quality subs for home listening. I will still do 1000 watts on two 12"s in my car but for home, less is more and this review shows that.
Great video, John, as always. You asked for some bass test tracks from viewers, so here you go. The two bass test tracks I use the most are “Lover’s Rock” by Sade (just after the 1:00 mark) and “Doing It Right” by Daft Punk. The reason is not only do they have super low bass, but each one hits three different low frequencies. This not only allows me to test for low frequency response, but if I don’t have the sub(s) in a good spot in the room, then one of the low frequencies will be over emphasized, while another will barely be audible due to room nodes. I’ll move the sub(s) around until I get decent, balanced bass at each of the three frequencies and then I know I have good sub placement.
Some other tracks I use include “Gosh” by Jamie XX, “Do You…” by Miguel, “Royals” by Lorde, “No Difference” by Everything But The Girl, “Receiver” by Tycho, “Raingurl” by Yaeji, and “They Came In Peace” by Traquility Bass. For acoustic bass, I use “So What” by Miles Davis. Enjoy!
@Ken Coleman
Excellent list. 👍
John, thank you for an excellent channel.
21 years ago I bought a pair of B&W CDM 1NT’s, a single B&W Matching Sub, and a higher end Denon Amp. Of course after 21 years the system has started to sound a bit thin, so I started by replacing the Denon with a Schiit stack: Modi Multi-bit DAC, Saga S Pre, and the Vidar 2. What a difference.
But the Sub just didn’t sound right anymore, either.
I realized that its internal amp must have lost a bit of punch, too. So I bought 2 Rel’s, placed them on the outside of the bookshelf speakers, and wow, the system sounds so much better. I set the crossovers on the subs just above where the B&W’s drop off at -3db, and the Mid’s sound fuller, the bass is faster and more defined, and the listening experience is just more enjoyable now.
Anyway, 2 is the way to go. My system has never sounded better…. Thanks for the great channel!
Good experiment John. One major issue is that’s this subwoofer has no phase adjustment. None. It is virtually impossible to properly integrate a sub without adjusting phase. Playing with this should be your next step in your subwoofer learning journey.
I have learned a lot with my system, which has changed a lot but seen many iterations including an M10 with dual subs and Lumina 2’s.
Because you have the M10, you should also experiment with running Dirac calibration in a setup optimized for two subwoofers. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Hi, apologies in advance. There’s a knob that allows for phase adjustment, right? Care to explain? 😊
Extremely interesting video. Lot of hard work putting this together. Thanks John
I always try to use at least 2 subwoofers John. My preferred brand on that front is the Martin Logan Dynamo series as they have ARC room eq built in. Ideal if your source / amp etc has no EQ.
The mix of impressions and taking measurements is very well done. I am still learning to dial in subs using REW myself. In my experience, taking measurements gives you a far better picture of what is actually going on, so you can make adjustments that you could not have thought about otherwise.
Absolutely agree with Mango Drive. Benchmark in bass.
The video i have been waiting for :) After having 2 subs in my stereosystem i will never go without again.. Does not matter if the speakers are small og big. It's allways better with two well dialed subs. I have two Forcefield 3 now(bought after your review). And they are just brilliant as music subs. And like you say.. with two the texture is better, less boomy. :)
I got the same conclusion: two subs.
Same here love it
Just when I thought I could get away with just one... 🙆♂️
As always the ranty bits are some of the best bits. Thank you John
Great video, John. I’ve been a true believer in two subs since 2000, when I got my first home theater (5.1) system. Later the system got reduced to 2 channel stereo, but the subs remained until 2022; had to sell them to downsize for a move from Texas to Mexico. I feel they added a balance to the sound, especially in a large room.
If you have independent distance settings on the amp, you could try adjusting one slightly to remove dips caused by time alignment. I bought a small dsp box and set my subs up with rew first. Can really mess around with adjusting for room nodes with a dsp.
To blend the sub: Thanks to You by Boz Scaggs. Room 335 by Larry Carlton. Everybody Here Wants You by Jeff Buckley. Sahara by Joe Satriani. Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones.
Really good video, timed great as I bought a sub last week for music listening (only). I’ve been playing with location, gain, frequency cut, without any measuring, purely what sounds best to me. It’s good to see the measurement aspect too, although you (correctly for me) pay more attention to what you like. Love your videos, thanks for keeping us entertained and informed.
The only Audiophile who twlks about the right things, rather then having just 2 2-ways in an untreated Room.
Every Hometheater Guy knows about this forever, but the Stereopeople always need like 30 years to keep up😅.
Love ur Content👍
After running dual subs in my HT and 2 channel rig, not looking back. The HT is gone, the pair of SVS SB3000 subs stayed. They mate well with the KLH Model 5's. I have them in two rooms, L shaped, consisting of dining area and living room. Two rooms but one actual space. Neither are near the speakers, and yes, the bass surrounds you. The SVS app makes tuning them in rather simple. One day I may try REW and really dial them in.
Strongly suspect dip around 60Hz with 80Hz crossover point is due to phase cancellation between mains and sub(s). I suspect that if you could phase shift the sub(s), the graph would flatten or even wind up with a peak around 60Hz. The other option would be to only high pass above crossover to mains -- thus reduced risk of out of phase near crossover frequency. Also, such "unloading" of the mains would allow them to be more accurate above the crossover point -- because they would not forced to overlay upper bass over the cone travel of lower base. Think 90Hz riding on top of 40Hz...
1000% agree. A sub truly makes the music come alive. I currently use only 1 as two would be just too busy for the space.
thanks for this video Darko. When you're inclined, have a look at twin subs combined with full range floorstanders.
John, you have been on a roll with this series of posts from your Portugal listening space. All have been relevant to me in that I installed Dirac Live via Mini DSP Studio just after the new year. Game changer in my listening space. This video gave me the hair-brained idea of taking a pair of so-so mid-fi speakers (like the 1980's Bose 301s I have lying about), integrate subwoofer(s) and run Dirac Live. I might do that just for grins and giggles.
Agree, a subwoofer integration makes a profound impact to a system. My go to test tracks for dialing a subwoofer in... Nicolas Jaar, Colomb; Jeff Mills & Tony Allen, Locked & Loaded; Darkside, Narrow Road; Kelela, The High; Burial, Archangel; Mala, Anti War Dub
With bass, there are a number of ways that things either cancel out or reinforce the sound. With any speaker, the bass that travels straight from the woofer (and it's port(s) if any) to our ears - will be cut by a reflection off of the floor WHEN the frequency wavelength is 2X the *difference* in the two path lengths. AND this same thing happens with the reflection off the ceiling, and the wall behind the speakers, the walls to either side - and the wall behind the listener, as well.
When you add a sub, or two subs - you *also* add the same thing from each sub to the other 5 boundary surfaces. So - yes the measurements of the bass, particularly below 200-250Hz IS GOING TO BE LUMPY.
A passive radiator acts acoustically essentially the same as a port. The exception is they should lack any chuffing noises.
No phase control? Any serious sub would have a continuous 0-180 degree phase control, to get the deeper bass closer to the phase of the speakers. Though with 2 subs, you can physically do this by placing the subs correctly.
Spot on! I have 2 subs, my REW measurements are pretty much flat within 2db down to 10hz, after running Dirac. With out Dirac...Rocky Mountains!. Subs are PSA S1512 sealed, Sonus Faber Sonetto VIII. The bass seems to follow the music...dead center or left and right. It's magic. 2 makes a difference!
It's a delight to see/hear your sub enlightenment 😉
And, consistently excellent and enjoyable work across the spectrum, many thanks
I've two audiophile friends who have shown that dual subs meld better into their listening rooms. I've a pair of tapered quarter wave tube speakers that never sounded right with subwoofer augmentation, be it one or two. I ended up putting baffle step compensation filters between the pre and power amps to bring the low bass up, essentially adding pseudo subs to each speaker. They sound much more balanced now. Just goes to show that co-locating subs next to smaller speakers, or using spectral eq can improve bass response.
John; to listen specifically to bass guitar I use the Dire Straits song "You and Your Friend", track 6 from the album On Every Street. The bass line is clean and clearly articulated. My system includes a pair of HECO Aurora 700 floorstanding 3-way speakers, powered by the Emotiva combo of the BASX PT-1 preamp and BASX A2 amplifier. (160 watts / channel into 8 Ohms and 250 watts / channel into 4 Ohms, with a rated THD+N of < 0.02%,
I use my Apple tv box for streaming from Apple music. I have been chasing sound for about 30 years and I am satisfied with this system @ around $2,000.; it's "good enough" for now. Although I am eyeballing your ZU speakers...
My experience mirrors yours. I added a pair of REL subs to my Magnepan setup and the effect was a noticeable increase in enjoyment and engagement over a single sub.
Thank you for putting everything in perspective! I'm saving for my KEF KC62.
With an old 8” REL sub the main album that I used to check for integration is Charlie Haden and Antonio Forcione’s “Heartplay”..
everything about matching subs is to know what ist the phase ;)
If you have -6db dip on the X-over frequency sub is just out of phase with the loudspeakers (not in general, but on that frequency)
2.2 setup with nice stand mounts and subs is a fantastic modern solution. I Have elac carina bookshelf speakers with B&W asw608 subs,,,its fantastic combo....I also have the subs on standmounts to be closer to the speakers for better integration and isolation using a higher crossover point.
Fantastic as ever, nice to see two modestly sized subs used, rather than some of the behemoths rolled out from time to time. I wondered if some of the side placement improvements in frequencies were helped by moving the sub to a hard floor from carpet, given the downward firing radiator? Maybe one for another day, more graphs etc.
Hi, enjoyable content again and thanks for it. I've been in the same room for 30 years, the last 15 with an EPOS ELS subwoofer, incidentally with more controls. My issue with subwoofer sound continues in my new sound set up. I replaced my hifi stand (which was stabilised by my vinyl and cd collection so weighed close to a tonne, on spikes to stainless floor pods) by a 20kg steel stand spiked and loaded with aluminium plates individually spiked as shelves with auto deadening sheets stuck to them. Overall, something like, with equipment, 100kgs. Pleasantly surprised by the nice sound I got from my MA Studio speakers which are far more musical than reviewers granted them - though not as amazing and overarching as my previous set up, it's far more room/family friendly. But as before - the sub is the elephant in the room. The issue is where you sit. All very well pointing to the sweet spot. I agree with you; you can vastly improve the output of stand mount speakers with little true bass in one place, but move off-axis and it's boomy, painful and wholly unmusical. My system is under my desk in a corner of the room. I can't have the subwoofer on whilst I sit there because the characteristics change drastically from the sweet spot listening position. I'm not spending money on tuning my room having agreed to reduce my hifi presence from its 30 year reign. But now, what if 2 smaller subs replaced one and were forward facing - go with that?? I need something wife proof. My EPOS sits across the room facing the babies, is unobtrusively hidden by a table above it and suited me till you introduced this question. Venture on please, guide me here.
Having two different sized subs can be helpful too. I had two 12” subs but ended up replacing one of the subs with a 10”. The 12” was on the side of a hallway side of the speaker and 10” where the speaker was at a corner.
Thanks great video. Try setting the subs 10HZ below the stand mounts roll off FRQ. It works for me.
The crossover frequency is where both speakers have the same loudness therefore they both play with less output then they would normally do. Its not a hard cutoff. Thats where u get 12db/oct or 24db/oct. etc pp also the filter like butterworth of likwitz riley etc are ways to make the two speakers work together. Therefore if you have -3db ( half the volume ) at the crossover frequency because 80db+80db = 83db then u have a falloff of 12db @ 100hz. then ur sub plays 200hz as well, just very quietly. This is important because a bigger cone sounds diffrent then a smaller cone, so the broad crossover makes it so the sound blends together better. In a digital crossover you can get like 48db oct crossovers which make it so that one sub plays to EXACTLY ( pretty much ) that frequency. But its also important to have in mind that in a high quality box your chassis are of such high quality that u can set your crossovers at frequencies where the chassis dont come into a frequency range where they have big troubles with. A 2nd sub is pretty much always a good thing as the room gets filled with energy more evenly, The smaller the room the more Important, but then again a bigger room needs more energy so its pretty much always that a 2nd sub is better then only 1. That scales up with even more subs, as long as they are corretly placed. But make no mistake, a better sub can outperform 2 worse subs, sometimes pretty easily.
Also this may be controversal but your bookshelf speakers are not capable of really delivering room filled sound. Iam sorry. They are decent speakers and they sound ok, maybe i give them even a "good" but a quality DIY 3 way speaker with a digital crossover smokes them pretty easily. Hope you can listen to something like that so you hear it for yourself. If your by chance ever in southern germany i gladly show u my system.
Excellent video! Even without the physics etc, the most convincing video I’ve watched on the benefits of dual subs. 🙏🏼
Outstanding review of an outstanding amplifier! New levels of image clarity too!
A lot of placement is about getting time alignment correct, so there is no phase issues, which defeat certain frequencies, like 40hz, for instance. The closer to the speaker the better the time alignment.
Glad the comments came back. I was watching a video about the benefits of dual subwoofers and then, bang! Your notification flashed across my screen so the timing was perfect! But as i played the comments were off.
Anyways... As always this video did not disappoint. Clear detail and direction for its content. Thank you John.
Im not sure if other comments have highlighted this already? If so apologies. But... the flat response chase near the end. Isn't a flat reading as shown more intended for playback at around 85db (reference) ?
Your Dirac colleague Terry Ellis did a great video a few years ago looking at how much extra "bass energy" is needed at continuing lower volume levels. This makes sense due to the "loudness buttons" on amplifiers, for this exact compensation for almost 50 years.
So... is the "Spicy findings" going to be? What is the sound of the Golden Ear like at normal listening levels in solo and dual configuration punching a 10db and even as high as 20db boost going up around 24db per octave with it's hump/curve/peek around 30hz. then rolling back down towards the subs own 25hz roll off. Would that smooth hump/bump be "more enjoyable" than listening to the flat response?
This is potentially why I'm personally looking towards a second sub and to fill my 20db null at 30hz - 40hz.
Would love your view plus anyone in chat who has experienced dual subs and runs them "hot" for more enjoyment vs somewhat less enjoyable nature of perfectly flat REW line in the bass response.
Many thanks
Take care all.
Hi John, great video. You should try the subs in diagonal position front/rear. You have space near the sofa. But you will have to add a delay in the rear sub. I don't know if it is possible with the Nad! You can try MiniDsp!
Really like the new approach here! Awesome approach and video
for testing subs i used to use these tracks:
Warren G - This DJ (contains veeeery low note than just few subs are able to play)
Hans Zimmer - Why so serious? (contains a section of sub notes playing almost solo)
Bjork - Hunter (has very subby bass)
Michael Jackson - Jam (contains sub accents on pre-chorus sections)
Luniz - I got 5 on it (contains sub part that is essential for whole track)
Spiritual by Pat Metheny (with Charlie Hayden on bass) and "Thanks to You" by Boz Scaggs has crazy, dive-down low bass.
I am using dual SVS SB-16 subwoofers. The frequency band from 20hz to 60hz contains the spatial information ( height, width, depth ). Big band JAZZ and pipe organ pressurizes the air in my listening room.
Hello John, I love watching your video’s, but have 1 question; as I am color blind, could you use more contrasting colors in your graphs? Now the lines look the same for me. Hope this is possible? Keep up the good work!
Nice work, very thorough and looks like you accomplished good synergy. I would be curious to hear you impressions of what a pass of DIRAC does, less for further linearization of the frequency response than for aligning the phase of your speakers with the subs. In my experience phase-alignment is a critical element to integration of speakers and subwoofers.
Perhaps investigate the Lyngdorf 2.2 approach to bass? They put 'bass' speakers (not subs) in the conventionally wrong place - in order to get a more cohesive and impactful result...
When you get these increased dips in the lows from speakers on stands its called a floor bounce. Read up on Carl Tatz - The elephant in the room. Sometimes its better to use subs fullrange, and tweak them to “fit” with an eq if they have one, monitored by REW. (Never overdo it with eq though, but +/- 3db is fine) At least you should try both and see what the room prefers. But first of all find the subs optimal placement through REW, as you did, because from here it requires less room eq which always sounds better. Greats from an acoustics nerd in Helsinki. :)
2 Rhythmik F12s augment my Sonusfaber Olympica 1s in my small 11X12 foot room. Fantastic. Also crossed at 60 but I use a Marchand outboard crossover.
For subwoofer dial in I use Artifact/ the turn by Evanescence. At 0.59 bass is coming up fro behind so slightly that you might miss that when the sub gain is too low. Again at 1.14. But if it's too loud then the room will tremble at 1.22 min.
Don't worry, it's an electronic track, but be sure to turn it off rather quickly if you don't want the guitars coming in at track 2😂
Flight to LAPD from Hans Zimmer is also used for the real rumble and Drone Corpse Aviator ( Archspire) for measuring the speediness.
Great video. And you have to do it all over again switching speakers haha. That's part of the fun, right?
This seems to be a larger room than most home rooms, you are lucky to have this in your house. It is much easier to play with speakers and subs in large rooms.
I have the GoldenEar BRX'S and use a SVS single 12" ported sub. I'm driving these with a PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP integrated. My thoughts are to go twin REL subs running from the speaker taps via the neutrik connections which is a REL hallmark. As well continue to run the SVS via its rca connection. The SVS will cross over lower than the REL but I should have amazing stereo bass and low energy integration.....at least this is my hope!
very relevant for me right now. I am currently using a new (to me) set of Lumina II's, and am trying to nail down the bass with my sub. its been a lot of fun tweaking the available setting to find the 'sweet spot'. but what i am find is the most significant factor is the song or album itself. all of the various recordings come with different levels or quality of bass, so I find myself adjusting the subs levels again at the start of each new track or album. otherwise songs can have either too much or too little bass for me in my room. lots of fun and i'm loving the Lumina II's. thanks as always for the informative video!
Keep these kind of vids coming. Really like where you've been heading
Ha ha. Listening to similar but higher quality setup for some 20 years now. SF Guarneri Homage with 2 SF Gravis 1B. Thanks John for this analysis which makes more sense than the general sub stories so far and now i understand why!
@10:00 asa u moved it closer to the wall it delivers better. never put sub in front of satelites/ always under or besides them, next to corners much better.
@17:56 perfect!
One of your best videos, good balance of subjective opinion and measurement with the emphasis on the music. Please repeat using main speakers with no ports and again using main and sub speakers with no ports or passive radiators at all. I've run subs like this (fancy crossover and dedicated amps. etc) and it is on another level. The downside is big boxes.....
I have two Velodyne spl8bg subwoofers, actually similar to these golden ears in some ways. I did consider running a 2.2 system for my listening room, but its simply too small to use both (excellent) subwoofers in one small space. I now run two different 2.1 systems and am happy with that. I am very much on the fence as to whether running large towers with decent low end output, or bookshelvers with a sub create the best sound stage. Using my Velodynes, I do feel like nearly every system benefits from a sub.
Re. Music for testing subs:
Scott Mulvahill - Himalayas
I like it to test the integration of the main speakers with the sub, does it sound real, can I spot when he switches from playing notes to cords, acoustic bass & Cello are perfect for this and IMO it's easier to tell if something is off because you know how those instruments should sound, synths are much harder to judge if the setup is messing up the bass.
For room filling bass?
Tor - Foxglove
Breakage - Rain
I use two subs since years. I feel like you do have a better bass at low volumes. I use two 8inch subs, which kind of simulate the power of a 12inch sub. But they play faster and as i said deeper even at low volume and therefore fill the room with feeling the music. And yes the setup with two small LS on standmounts looks super cool 😆💁🏻♂️👍🏻 Great video.
Great exploration. This is what we need to do - explore sound in different situations and locations. Sound helps us bridge the distance between here and there…
The hole in response at around 100Hz is clearly a timing and phase problem. Read up on what both of those things, people have explained them much better than I will, but basically at crossover the sound waves coming out of each speaker don't necessarily have the same phase, when they reach your ears they can destructively interact and cause holes in frequency response if they are too out of phase.
Fixing the problem thankfully doesn't really require deep understanding. You need a dsp or a preamp that allows you to add delay to each signal. You can then measure with REW and use REW's handy dandy alignment tool (you need to be in all spl for it to work). You can then play around with gain and delay and it will predict the summed trace. Just delay until that hole is gone.
It might also just be your room idk, but the delay is worth a shot imo.
edit: delay in the time domain is distance in the physical domain in regarda to sound waves. If you don't have a dsp you can try moving the sub forwards and backwards to get a better alignment
Wonder if it is rug vs tile. Sure would be interesting to try the center with the rug rolled up enough to get the sub over the tile.
Good stuff John. One huge downside to the GoldenEar sub is the lack of phase adjustment. It's likely that the phase-alignment between the sub(s) and your standmounts around the crossover region was better at 60Hz vs 80Hz. I'm using two subs crossed over at 120Hz to my Genelecs and they sound great.
@Eetu
@Darko Audio
Yes, it was improper phase summing of the subwoofer(s) to the standmounts in the crossover region that caused the nulls. A simple 180° phase inversion switch (a huge oversight by Golden Ear IMO!) on the subwoofer would have remedied this, or at least improved the integration and response.
However, John could have simply reversed the (+) & (-) speaker wire connections on Both standmount speakers to achieve the same result as a phase inversion switch on the subwoofer. Try this again with the first single subwoofer setup that was centered between the standmounts and measure & listen to the results to confirm. ;)